Why do so many students (and adults) believe they “just aren’t good at math”? How can educators shift that mindset and build confidence in STEM learning?
In this episode of The TechEd Podcast, host Matt Kirchner sits down with Kathy Meyers, a veteran high school teacher who blends sports psychology with math instruction to help students overcome self-doubt, develop resilience, and master problem-solving—critical skills for both the classroom and the workforce.
Kathy shares how techniques used by elite athletes—positive self-talk, goal-setting, and focus strategies—can transform student outcomes in STEM education. From tackling math anxiety to fostering leadership and teamwork, she provides practical strategies that educators and parents can use to support student success.
Listen to learn:
- The role of self-talk, confidence, and mindset in learning math and technical subjects
- How Sudoku puzzles teach problem-solving and resilience from day one
- Why playing to win vs. playing not to lose matters in both sports and education
- How to help students reframe failure as growth in STEM classrooms
- Real-life stories of students who applied these lessons in college, careers, and beyond
The power of a positive mindset can completely change the trajectory of a student's life! Educators and leaders, these are great tools to instill in your classroom and workplace.
3 Big Takeaways from this Episode:
1. Mindset Matters in Math and STEM
Students often struggle not because they lack ability, but because they believe they aren’t “math people.” Applying sports psychology techniques like positive self-talk and goal-setting helps reframe their approach to learning.
2. Failure is Part of the Learning Process
Just like in sports, students need a growth mindset to push through challenges. Teaching strategies like trying different problem-solving methods (as with Sudoku puzzles) encourages resilience and adaptability.
3. Confidence and Preparation Lead to Success
Whether it’s a test, a job interview, or a big presentation, students perform best when they train their minds like athletes—visualizing success, controlling self-doubt, and focusing on small, actionable steps.
Resources in this Episode:
View Kathy's YouTube channel with math tips & tricks!
Other resources:
- The Happiness Advantage by Shawn Achor
- Napoleon Hill books
- Norman Vincent Peale books
- Tony Robbins resources
- Rudy - A football movie about perseverance and goal-setting
We want to hear from you! Send us a text.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Kirchner (00:08):
It's The TechEd Podcast. Welcome in. I am your
host. Matt Kirkner, you know Ihave been going through life way
too long and had way too manyexperiences and been put in
exactly the right place atexactly the right time to
believe that that is just acoincidence. And so it was that
I crossed paths with today'sguest on The TechEd Podcast. As
(00:28):
our audience might know, I spenda fair amount of time in Idaho
during the first quarter ofevery year. Love to ski, get a
lot of work done while I'm outthere as well. But that's where
I was several weeks ago, and Iwas sitting on the chair lift.
And for individuals in theaudience who are skiers, you
know that to pass time on a fiveor 10 minute lift ride, a lot of
times, you will strike up aconversation with whoever is on
(00:50):
that lift with you, stranger ornot, it starts out with, where
have you skied this morning?
What runs have you done? Andthen if that person is from
somewhere else, you ask wherethey're from. And if you have
enough time on that lift ride,you might even get into what
they do for a living. That iswhat happened with today's
guest, Kathy Myers. She is ateacher at corner Canyon High
School in Draper, Utah, and Iasked her what she did. We got
(01:12):
to talking about the work shewas doing. She found out she was
in education, and then I foundout what she was teaching. And I
was like, oh my goodness, I hadnever heard of this before in a
high school, our audience needsto meet this person and talk
about the great learning she isbringing into the high school
classroom. It's got applicationsacross stem and TechEd and
beyond. Let's start out bywelcoming Kathy Myers to The
(01:35):
TechEd Podcast. Kathy, great tosee you again, and thanks for
being with us.
Kathy Meyers (01:40):
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me today. I
really do believe in what Iteach.
Matt Kirchner (01:45):
No, I know you do, and that was so clear when
we were having thatconversation. And it was like, I
mean not just the content thatyou're teaching, but the fact
that you are so into it, and youstarted talking about some of
the benefits that your studentsare receiving, and students
coming back years later andsaying what I learned in this
course is paying dividendsthroughout life after high
school. That's got to beincredibly heartwarming. We will
(02:06):
talk about that, but the topicfirst, so tell our audience what
it is that you teach that is sounique in a high school setting.
Kathy Meyers (02:15):
All right, so I teach secondary math to 15 and
16 year olds, and I also teachsports psychology. I received my
master's degree from theUniversity of Utah, like, 25
years ago and and ever since Ifinished my degree, I started
teaching sports psychology.
They're like, that's so cool.
Like, go for it. You can teachit. And at the time, there
wasn't a curriculum for highschool, the high school level,
(02:36):
so I took the information I waslearning at my master's degree
and made it more to a highschool level, and that's what
I've been teaching. And I justkeep adding to it all the cool
research every year. Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (02:48):
it's awesome. So the the math part of it,
obviously not so unique. There'stons and tons of teachers that
are teaching math at the highschool level, but integrating
that sports psychology andteaching that sports psychology
really, really fascinating. Whatis sports psychology? If you
could give a definition in a fewsentences,
Kathy Meyers (03:03):
yeah, sports ecology is is getting your
mindset correct so that you canperform at your best. And it's
not necessary just for athletes.
It's for performers of allkinds, choir, theater, dance,
whatever. You know, you can nameit, but it's just getting your
mind in the moment, to go doyour best in the very moment
that you're in and not worryabout like past or future, and
(03:24):
try to have your mind connectedto your body. So it's going to
be awesome. Yeah.
Matt Kirchner (03:30):
So I can totally see applications for that,
certainly in sports, right? Imean, the psychology of sports
that how you think about thesport that you're in, how you
clear your mind, how you focusall these things, you know,
whether you're playing baseball,playing football, you're a
dancer, you're a skier, I meanhaving your mind where it needs
to be and being present super,super important in the field of
(03:51):
sports. But then you're takingthose methodologies into the
classroom. So go a little bitdeeper on what your students are
learning, right?
Kathy Meyers (03:59):
So how I take the idea into math is I just feel
like a lot of people have givenup when they're 15. A lot of
students don't love math, andthey're struggling. It's hard
for them, really, math is hardfor a lot of people, a lot of
the world. I have parent teacherconference next week, and I'll
have parents come, and it'sreally easy for people to say,
the parent the adults like wedon't speak very highly of math.
(04:21):
We don't, we don't act like wecan do it. Like parents come
adults that are pretty awesomecome and say, Oh, I'm not a math
person. Like people are sofreely willing to admit that.
And in a civilized society,first world country, you would
never admit that you can't read,but people are really happy to
say, Oh, I can't do math. That'sfor my husband, or that's for
the other people of the world.
Like, I am not that person, andI don't feel that way about math
(04:44):
at all. Like I feel like it'slike a sports skill. You want to
learn something. Okay? You canlearn it. Get the right people
around you to support you, learnthe technique, learn the
methods, and make sure it's fun.
Like, I feel like if 15 yearolds hate math, you. They have a
long life of math beinginvolved, and they're going to
get ripped off. They're maybenot going to get the job they
(05:06):
want because they're too scaredto do math. So
Matt Kirchner (05:09):
all these years that I, you know, I joke with my
kids somewhat that I was really,really good at math, until they
started putting letters in theequations. And as soon as I got
into algebra, and I'm like, Whatare these slides doing here? And
I feel like I'm actually prettydecent at math, but, but used to
joke about that, and you'reright. I never thought about it
that way. The number of peoplethat say, Well, I'm just not a
math person. I'm no good atmath. So that's a really, really
(05:30):
interesting perspective. And inas much as we talked about, you
know, STEM education, beingscience, technology, engineering
and math, math, certainly in oneform or another, fundamental,
there's so many careeropportunities, so many life
skills, right? And so ifsomebody's giving up on
themselves as a freshman orsophomore in high school, long,
long life ahead of them, to yourpoint of having to rely on math,
that maybe they haven't builtthose skills because they
(05:51):
haven't built the confidencethat they too can be good at it.
Am I? Am I getting that
Kathy Meyers (05:55):
right? Absolutely, it's I feel like it's all about
confidence and about like me astheir teacher, instilling a safe
place for them to learn and growand have a growth mindset and
fail easily, like, if I justfeel like that's a huge part of
learning is, is it not goingwell? And then, hey, try again,
right?
Matt Kirchner (06:11):
What's the experience like for a student?
So I'm a student that, here Iam, let's just say I'm you're
teaching freshman, sophomore,juniors, what? What you're
primarily those, yeah,sophomores, yeah. Okay, so we're
teaching sophomores. I'm a highschool sophomore. I get into
Kathy's class, and I'm thatstudent that says I just I've
struggled with math. I've neverquite gotten it, and it's
getting harder and harder.
What's the experience like forthat student? How are you
(06:33):
working with that student in away that would be different from
a traditional classroom, right?
Kathy Meyers (06:39):
My day one to them is, I tell them that I'm their
cheerleader, like, I'm here tosupport you however you need me,
right? Like, I mean, I brought Ihave a pom pom, like, I simply
pull it out the first day, andI'm like, I'm your cheerleader,
you guys. I'm just here tofacilitate however you need me
to be your teacher this year. Idon't know what that means for
you, but I'm gonna put the workin as your teacher, and I expect
(07:02):
you to put the work in, and Ikeep trying, like, I'm going to
try to give you a place to feelsafe and to feel like you can
ask the questions that you canbe supported when it doesn't go
well. Like I want everybody totry, and we're going to have a
lot of wrong answers, and thenwe'll try to figure out how to
get to the right one. That'swhat I feel like my job is as
their teacher is to really tryto believe in them and try to
(07:24):
give them some hope. I guess itgoes back to self talk. First
what I teach in sportspsychology, one of the number
one things I teach in sportspsychology is how we talk to
ourselves. Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (07:34):
so go deeper on that. I'm a huge believer, by
the way, in what you're saying.
I mean, I you know, things likemental health are real things
depression, they're real things.
You know, I'm not making lightof any of that, of course, but
so much of having kind of thishappy, successful, you know,
content life is kind of how werun our brains and how we think
about things. And so talk alittle bit more about that self
talk and how students canreinforce positive and, for that
(07:56):
matter, negative behaviors bywhat they're saying in their
head. And
Kathy Meyers (07:59):
I do a whole bunch of topics in sports psychology,
but I start, I make sure I keepgoing back to self talk, because
I feel like we can eithersabotage ourself and go down.
I'm stupid, I'm dumb, I'm I'mnot adequate. I can't do it. I
just I'm gonna quit, or we cansay I'm awesome. I can find the
right people to help me. I cankeep trying. I can do a little
(08:19):
part of it. Maybe I understandthis part, but I don't
understand this part, but Idon't understand this part.
Breaking the problem down issuper valuable for kids that are
getting overwhelmed by somethingthat looks big to them. When I
hear kids talking negative, I'mlike, Okay, wait, you can do
this. I can help you together,you and I can figure this out.
But we set ourselves up to failmiserably when we're telling
(08:40):
ourselves we're not adequate,sure, and we're not enough, or
we're not I don't work hardenough. I don't stuff like that,
you know. And, and how I teachself talk in sports Psych is I
teach it like we're thegatekeeper in our head. Like, if
you ever been to I have aneighborhood and in my city that
there's a gate, and there's aguy that sits at the little
house, and you drive up to it,and I don't live there, but my
(09:03):
daughter went to a friend'shouse, and the guy asked me
where I'm going, and I tell him,and I guess he believed me, and
he lets me in, right? But thegatekeeper doesn't have to let
you in. They can say, Nope,you're you're not coming in,
right? And it's like, that's howwe have to be in our minds, is
we have to be the gatekeeper,like, when the negative starts
sneaking in, like, I'm not goodenough, I'm not smart enough,
(09:24):
I'm not adequate, I'm notconfident. We gotta stop it.
Sports Psychology says, like,You should do something
physical, like, when you see thenegatives coming in, you, like,
snap your fingers and that goes,Oh yeah, I gotta be positive,
right? Really? Like, we have tobe so strong in our minds and
go, Oh, stop. I can't that's nothelping me succeed. That
(09:45):
negative self talk doesn't helpme be awesome. It's gonna take
me on a bad course.
Matt Kirchner (09:51):
Does the opposite, right? It reinforces
those negative behaviors andthose negative thoughts,
Kathy Meyers (09:55):
right? Yeah, I'm too dumb to learn math like
that's not I want anybody tobelieve when they're 15. Yeah?
Every
Matt Kirchner (10:00):
once while, somebody in the in the studios
of The TechEd Podcast,unintentional on my part, will
hear me mutter to myself, I'm agenius, or, Wow, am I brilliant.
And it's exactly, it's exactlythe opposite. And it's not, it's
not my ego alive and well,necessarily, it's the it is. You
know, you, the more of thosemessages that you send to
yourself, the more you'repositioning yourself to live out
(10:21):
those behaviors, and it becomesa cycle. Right? Absolutely, the
more you reinforce those things,whether positive or negative,
the more you replay those thingsover and over in your brain, the
more likely you are to end up ina situation where you're
creating your own reality inyour own future, and overcome
obstacles in a lot of ways,based upon how you're thinking,
you can create those negativeoutcomes as well. So it sounds
like we're really, reallyaligned in terms of that line of
(10:42):
thinking. So it's one thingcertainly important to snap your
fingers, be your gatekeeper, putup the stop sign, tell that
mental image or that thought togo away. But then you got to
discipline yourself to thinkabout something that that's
opposite, right? That's going totake you in the right direction.
So, so what happens in thatregard, right?
Kathy Meyers (11:00):
So then I feel like, you know, the positive
self talk, and I have this, likehitting head, where you have all
the negative things, and thenyou're like, what are the Just
One things? Usually it's like,task oriented with a sport. I
coach softball team here too,and if you, like, snap your
wrist at the end, what is thetechnique that I should do to
make this happen? I feel likeoriented on the task or self
(11:21):
talk. You know, for battersgetting up to bat, the big thing
is to strike out. But you don'twant to say strike out in your
head. You want to say quickhands or see it, hit it or drive
through the ball. You want thatpositive message to replace
that, like positiveaffirmations, right? And there's
all sorts of ones in math thatI've put together, and I've had
kids come up with them too.
Like, their kids are so smartand amazing. Like, I'm smart, I
(11:42):
can try harder. I could just trya little longer. Sometimes you
just need to put in a littlemore time or a different method.
Like I talked to you about, Iteach Sudoku, and there's so
many different methods forsolving Sudoku that, okay, just
try a different way. That way isnot working out. So try a new
way. There's all sorts of newways, and that's advantageous to
(12:02):
all of us. Oh, this isn'tworking out. I gotta try
something new. Like, I'm notgonna keep hitting my head
against the wall and it notgoing well. I gotta try
something new.
Matt Kirchner (12:13):
So you're actually teaching Sudoku in the
class. Tell me about that. Ialways start
Kathy Meyers (12:17):
my class with that. And you guys know Sudoku
most math people do, or STEMpeople do, right? Sure? Yeah, I
know for sure. I know itabsolutely anyway. But Sudoku,
you know, there's a bunch ofmethods for solving them. Like
you can either, like, figure outall the numbers in a column, or
all the numbers in a row. Or youcan do like, the box and figure
out numbers that goes in thatbox. Or every Sudoku, regular
(12:39):
Sudoku, anyway, you know everynumber has nine, so there's,
there's those four strategies.
And so I teach them how to doSudoku, and I teach them
strategies, and I teach them onething about it is, like, you
should always use pencil so youcan race and and make sure you
don't put a number where itdoesn't belong. Don't guess,
like you have to logic it out inyour mind. You have to do
process of elimination, or youhave to make sure you can say
(13:01):
why the number goes into place,right? So then we start, like,
doing it, and you get stuck,like you get stuck with two
numbers, and you can guess, but,you know, that's a rule, you
can't guess so. So when I getstuck, I I'm like, Okay, what do
you do next guys? And I justfeel like they keep saying, try
another way, like, try adifferent method. Like, try the
(13:23):
box way. Try how many numbers inthe thing? Like, what one has
the most numbers? Maybe youcould figure out with all the
threes, find all nine threes inthe box. So I just don't want
kids to quit, you know, like,that's the message here. Like,
don't quit when it gets hard.
When it gets hard is when weshould dig in and go, oh, there
(13:44):
should be another way. I'msmart. I can figure this out. I
can I can work on this. I canhave a new something new could
come maybe. So I feel likethat's how Sudoku is so
valuable, way of teaching kidsto problem solve, because math
is just problem solving,
Matt Kirchner (13:58):
sure, problem solving, hitting a wall, finding
another way, and to your point,not guessing which can create
problems down the road, right? Imean, as soon as you guess, if
you guess wrong, you could get along way down a puzzle and then
realize that you made a mistake.
So you have to make sure thatyou're solving it with logic,
not to and so it really soundslike that that process really
sets the tone for what they'regoing to do in the rest of the
class, which obviously includesa lot of problem solving,
(14:20):
includes a lot of math, alsoincludes things like leadership
and teamwork and and publicspeaking, which you you wouldn't
necessarily maybe think wouldbelong or would be common in
this type of coursework. So tellme about why it's so important
to teach those as well.
Kathy Meyers (14:34):
Yeah, leadership and teamwork, leadership. You
know, I just teach kids thateven though you don't wear the
captain band and you're thecaptain of the team. Like you're
gonna have places in your lifethat you're gonna lead. Maybe
it's in your family. Maybe it'seven in this classroom, like,
when I'm the teacher trying toget get control of 36 kids, you
know, I have, like, I'm in Utah,I have a lot of kids in my
classes, right? And, you know,some of the kids can help me be
(14:57):
the leaders, to calm people downand and get. Both motivated and
focused and in that realm. Sothere's just lots of ways where
leaders, and it usually is justabout respect and about putting
in extra time and effort.
Leaders show up early, they staylate, they do the extra things.
And, you know, with leadershipin stem like, Oh, I could do the
extra things to do better atthis math class or this test or
(15:18):
whatever's next, what's what'sthe extra thing, right?
Teamwork. I always talk aboutbig team, little me and the
whole plan of the team is sortof bigger than just me alone,
but it also means that I don'twant to shrink. I want to shine
and give my talents and gifts tothe situation, whether it's a
(15:40):
classroom, whether it's a sportsfield, that I need to give my
gifts and talents, and I wanteverybody else to bring their
best selves too. It's not reallyme competing against you. When
we're on a team like you bringyour best self. I'll bring my
best self, and everybody bringstheir best stuff, and we're
gonna make an awesome, amazingproduct, right? But I feel like
sometimes when there's oneleader, you know, even like, I'm
(16:02):
the coach of the softball team,yeah, my ideas are valuable, but
so are everybody else's ideas.
Like I need them. My I have fourcoaches I'm working with, and I
need them to bring their besttalents and best ideas to my
team to make all these girlshave a great experience. That's
my goal.
Matt Kirchner (16:20):
I was listening to a presentation last week
where somebody said, when I goalone, I go fast. When I go with
others, we go far. And I thoughtthat was a really interesting
way of looking at teamwork. Socertainly understand the value
of teaching it and the fact thatyou're teaching it is amazing.
What are some of the strategiesyou use to impart those lessons
to your students? Well,
Kathy Meyers (16:37):
in sports, take we actually play a game, and then
they come up with ideas of whatmakes a good team, like I put
them in groups of four and givethem some what is big team,
little mean. What does that evenmean? How do you use it in your
job? How do you use it in thisclassroom? How do you use it at
your work? And so they giveexamples of how they can play
(16:59):
their role at their job, or theycan, you know, play their role
in their family, like everybodyyou know has these parts of
their lives that we are. We'reTeam of and I'm a team in my
softball team, but I'm a teamwhen I'm the teacher in my
classroom, like we're all a teamtogether. And if there's a bunch
of people not on board, then wegot to figure out how to
(17:19):
motivate them and get them onboard and have them bring their
best, best talents and gifts,or, you know, they're not going
to contribute, and we need theirideas, because everybody's ideas
are valuable.
Matt Kirchner (17:29):
Absolutely So teaching, teaching those
students that maybe aren'tcompletely on board, to refocus,
to look at their learning in adifferent way. I know that
refocusing is something that youteach in the classroom along
with goal setting. And you knowwhat you say is playing to win,
not playing not to lose, yeah,which we've all met, many of us,
I certainly have heard that in asports setting, you want to play
to win, you don't want to playnot to lose, right? How do you
(17:52):
take those types of lessons andthen make them apply to kind of
the greater process of goingthrough life here on the planet
Earth? Right?
Kathy Meyers (17:59):
Play to win. It's an awesome concept, but it's
mostly about like, having a gameplan and being aggressive and
taking risks. I'm not sayinglike, dangerous risks, like
Squirrel Suit jumping off, youknow, stuff like that. I'm just
taking maybe risks in business,maybe risks at your job, maybe,
you know for sure, risk insport, where I'm gonna steal the
base I'm gonna take that risk Imight get out might fail. I feel
(18:22):
like when we take risks, we faila lot, but you might never get
ahead if you don't take thatrisk, and you don't take that
jump leap of faith to the nextlevel of of trying or being
assertive and meeting new peopleor getting out of your comfort
zone. I feel like you knowplaying to win is getting out of
your comfort zone and reallytrying new things that could be
advantageous to you?
Matt Kirchner (18:43):
Yeah, I think about my football fan. I'm a
sports fan in general, but, youknow, I think about football,
and we used to joke about theprevent defense, right? I mean
putting your deep backs in yourcorners and your, you know, your
safety is way, way back off ofthe receivers to kind of prevent
the big play holding them off.
Yeah, the prevent defense was,was one way of preventing your
team to win, from winning,right? I mean, you're, you're
playing not to lose, right?
(19:05):
Yeah, yeah. You're running theball the whole fourth quarter
because you've got a, you know,you've got a 10 point lead and
and you're trying to protectthat lead, and then the other
team comes back and scores twotouchdowns and takes that
Victoria away from you. Sothat's playing not to lose and
playing to win is, look, yeah,and I'm going to be sensible,
I'm not going to take crazyrisk, but let's play this game
to win. Let's, let's beaggressive. Let's keep pushing
and taking that lesson, theninto into students life. So tell
(19:29):
us a little bit then about, youknow, some we were talking about
this on the lift, right? Youwere like, Oh, it's just so
rewarding. I have students thatcome back once they're, you
know, whatever they're doingafter high school, going into,
you know, post secondaryeducation, going into the
workforce, and coming back andsaying, Oh, my goodness, I
learned this lesson, and itapplied so far outside of what
we did in the classroom. Do youhave any great stories about
that that'll resonate with theaudience?
Kathy Meyers (19:50):
Yeah, I was thinking about some. I have some
kids that like go and get jobslater. Every you need to go
figure out how to employthemselves, right? And we
practice job interview questionsand. A big part of sports
psychology is preparing well,like, it's one of your
controllables. Like, I canprepare for things. I can
prepare for the math test. I canpractice those things. And he
(20:10):
came back a couple days later,like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad we
practiced that in class, becauseI was so familiar with the
questions, and I had so muchconfidence because I prepared
well, and I practice it out, andI thought through it in my mind.
And anyway, that was cool. And Ijust had to yesterday, I had a
biker. He's in Puerto Rico,racing mountain bikes, and and
he sent me a text. He's like,I'm racing tomorrow. Give me
(20:33):
some tips. What do you think?
And so I just told him, makesure you practice the technical
parts. I'm a mountain biker. Andso there's technical parts where
you know, if you practice them,like imagery, even in your mind,
just practice so many times inyour mind that it feels
comfortable to you. And that'ssure, that's the parts where
other people will slip up.
(20:54):
There's this cool part. It's aJapanese word called kaizen.
It's about practicing ourweaknesses and and I feel like,
you know, we don't want topractice our weaknesses because
we don't understand them. Weit's hard for us, it's
embarrassing to practice ourweaknesses. But I had, I have
this mom that's so awesome, andshe's a fantastic teacher, and
she I was playing the pianogrowing up as a kid, and she
(21:18):
would be in the kitchenlistening, and she's like, you
know, that one part that's notvery good. Practice that part 20
times and say, there I am, and,but that's the hard part. So I
didn't really want to practiceit, but, but I did, and I'd
practice that hard part really awhole bunch. And then she's
like, when you practice the hardpart, then the whole thing
sounds good. And I feel like, asa math teacher, like, when I get
(21:39):
about the study guide, if I say,okay, don't do any of the stuff
you know, only do the hard partsand do the hard parts and
practice and practice andpractice them. And if you can't
do the hard parts, I'm here tohelp you. I'm your helper,
right? And I'm your cheerleader.
But learn how to do the thingsyou don't know, because when you
understand those, the whole testwill go well for you, because
you already know the otherstuff. But human nature, we all
(21:59):
practice the things we're goodat because it feels good and it
makes us happy. Like, Oh, good.
I'm good at this. I'm good atsomething, right? So it feels
good to be good at something.
And the hard things, we don'tknow how to really like deal
with them. And so I feel like,when we can figure out how to
deal with those hard things andhave other methods, like the
(22:20):
Sudoku. I'm going to try thisother method that might help me
with the hard thing, or I'mgoing to get a teacher that can
help me and be patient, or I'mgoing to do Khan Academy. Or we
got Google. Like, I didn't haveGoogle, I was taking math, right
college, for sure,
Matt Kirchner (22:35):
yeah, there was no YouTube to watch somebody do
the do the
Kathy Meyers (22:39):
math videos. Like, there's no excuse for these kids
to not learn. I'm like, Come on,guys, you got absolutely
Matt Kirchner (22:44):
we'll make sure and link up that channel in the
in the show notes, for theaudience, if they want to, they
want to check that out. I didn'tknow you were a mountain biker.
I love that. Amazing. How manypeople get into skiing and
mountain biking? Probably a lotof the same, you know, the same
personality traits and kind ofthrill seeking, right? I love
mountain biking. In fact, myfavorite place to mountain bike
is probably three hours or sosoutheast of you in in more. So
(23:06):
love that whole area and it, youknow, some, just some
interesting examples that areresonating with me as you're
going through that. The firstone is, and we have great
mountain biking, believe it ornot, in the Midwest. And about
an hour from where I live, theEmma Carlin trail is some of the
best mountain biking anywhere inthe Midwest. And used to ride
that a lot. Yes, it's awesome,but used to ride that. It's
different style mountain biking,right? You're not on a on a
(23:28):
trail like you would be in thein the West. You're on a, you
know, it's a lot of dirt, it'ssand, it's, you know, what have
you, not a lot of slick rock,but, but, but awesome mountain
biking. And you'll see the theriders that are really good,
like, if you're doing atechnical climb on a mountain
bike, and all of a sudden, youknow, you lose your balance a
little bit. Put a foot down,stop. You don't have any
(23:49):
momentum. You know, probablynine out of 10 bikers just push
their bike up to the top ofwhatever, get off going. And
it's that one out of 10 thatturns around and goes back to
the bottom, says, I'm gonna trythat again. Those are the
really, really good riders, youknow, they're taking the hard
part, they're doing the partthat they're struggling with,
and they're practicing that overand over and over again, just
like the example from the thepiano piece that you can't play.
(24:10):
So love that example, the otherone. And I actually write a
magazine column every month.
I've been toying with an idea.
You know, when I'm teachingpeople how to ride a mountain
bike, everybody wants to lookat, you know, like, what's right
in front of my wheel, rightwhat's right in front of my
wheel. And if you do that,guaranteed you're running into
something, or you're running offthe trail. Or they, like, pick
the thing they want to avoid,and they stare at it, and then
(24:31):
they run right into it. And sothough, yeah, the whole logical
psychology and mountain bikingis looking down the trail,
looking at what's ahead of you,and, you know, like, 1020, feet,
and your your body in yourmuscle memory, you'll take care
of the rest, right? It'll steeryou through that stuff. You
don't have to look right at it.
There's a huge life lesson kindof buried in there somewhere as
well, right? Like, for goalsetting, or like, look ahead.
Like, there's this part inDraper where it's a practicing
(24:53):
and they have all these signs,and one of them is, look ahead,
pick a path. And I feel likeevery time I pick my. Is up and
go, oh yeah, I got this. My bodyknows how to do this and and
it's so great. And I feel likeit's goal setting. And my
favorite quote about goalsetting is from Rudy at the
movie. Rudy, we know that I
Unknown (25:11):
short noise for sure.
Of course. Yeah, absolutely. Hesays,
Kathy Meyers (25:16):
dreams are what make life tolerable. And I just
like, we have to have goals.
And, you know, I teach writingthem down and put them in your
mirror where you brush yourteeth, because everybody brushes
their teeth, right? And, youknow, and write those goals down
and look at them and look aheadin your life, and, you know, go,
be awesome. Like, just, I havethis sign says, Go, be great.
And I just really want kids to,like, believe they can do things
(25:38):
and not if I get to the hardthings, that there's lots of
ways around the hard things andthrough, and there's people on
the earth to help you, andthey're putting your path for
sure, too. So
Matt Kirchner (25:52):
my favorite reading is Malcolm Gladwell, who
talks about the people that facethe most hurdles while they're
going through, you know, whilethey're going through their
younger life, sometimes end upbeing the best leaders when they
get to their adult life, becausethey get so good at getting
going around, over, through thechallenges that are in front of
them, that when they you know,as if you have those challenges
during your you know during yourpathway, whatever that is,
(26:12):
through education, then when youget to adulthood, you're way
more adept at navigating some ofthose hurdles. And so much of
what you're doing is kind ofright along those lines. So one
of those hurdles is this wholeidea of math anxiety, which I'll
be honest with you, I didn'teven know was a thing. What is
math anxiety? And how do youtell your How do you teach your
students to to get past it andto handle right? I
Kathy Meyers (26:31):
think it's just the the social even our whole
society is like, oh, math is toohard. It's, it's way above my
pay grade. I'm I can't do that.
I think we talk ourselves out ofit the first time it gets hard
and we don't remember that. Ohyeah, there's another way.
There's another method. Like,maybe they haven't had a
positive environment to learnin. Like, one of my jobs is be
really patient with meth anxietyand kind and caring. Like they
(26:53):
know that I want them to learnand I want them to get through
this obstacle. And I feel likethat's why you have teachers,
right? I know people can all doonline school and other kinds of
of options, but that's why theyhave me, right? That's because
I'm going to love them throughit and and care about them in
this moment. I can't do it. Ican't do it. And I feel like,
(27:14):
with meth anxiety, you canchange that self talk to I got
this, I'm awesome. I have thisbig sign at the front of my
class that says, You got this.
And some days, you know, I get,I get to work every morning at
seven, and I coach a softballteam, and I'm not home till like
nine o'clock at night sometimes,and and signs up there for me, I
got this, like, I can go bepositive with these kids, and I
(27:37):
can go love them and and helpthem learn today and and be
patient with them. But I feellike if every time it gets hard,
we go, Oh, you got this. Okay, Ijust have to try a new method.
Back to Sudoku, coming backaround to that don't just don't
quit. I mean, that's just mymessage to 15 year olds and and
everybody else is like, when itgets tough, like that's when we
should dig in more and find anew method and find a bet, you
(28:02):
know, maybe it's other people tosurround ourselves with for a
minute. Maybe, like, there'slots of avenues that you maybe
have to change if you're gonnamove through that hard thing,
right?
Matt Kirchner (28:11):
Well, and I think there's a really good message
about the value of teachers,especially in this age of
technology, that was embedded inthat, that last answer that you
offered, Kathy and hey, there's,a there's a lot of anxiety,
speaking of anxiety andeducation right now about, you
know, the advent of technology,the ability to use data to
predict a student's outcomes, torearrange, you know, course
sequences, or their path througheducation, to guarantee, or at
(28:34):
least to give us the best chanceat an outcome. One that's kind
of been bouncing around in myhead is with all the things that
AI and machine learning can do,what can AI and machine learning
not do? And I think you justtouched on one of the really
important parts of that. Youknow, there's some, some study I
read about a year ago that saidthat a six month old cat has
more emotional intelligence thanchat GPT does. A six month old
(28:58):
cat can read your emotions andrespond to your emotions better
than than generative artificialintelligence. And so, you know,
you think about the value of ateacher, the ability to not just
usher a student through theireducation pathway, but to, you
know, as we say, oftentimes, topull them when they need to be
pulled, to push them when theyneed to be pushed, to hug them
when they need a hug,figuratively, at least. And then
(29:20):
to you know, to have the wisdomto know which to do when, which
really is kind of an example, Ithink of the incredible value
that teachers are going to havethat in as much as we can use
technology and we can useYouTube and we can use Google to
sharpen our skills and to learnthings we didn't know. In the
end, the good teachers that bothembrace technology and continue
(29:42):
with that, that incredibleempathy for their students, and
the ability to relate to astudent and push, pull, hug when
they need to be push, pulled andhugged. Really, really
important. Do you see it thesame way as we kind of looked at
the future of education?
Absolutely.
Kathy Meyers (29:54):
I mean, the math anxiety. I don't think that goes
away with AI. I think it goesaway. With somebody giving you
some confidence and changingyour path a little bit and
saying, Maybe you should look atit a little bit different. Maybe
you don't really have mathanxiety. Maybe this one part's
just hard for you. You know, thewhole thing's not hard for you.
(30:14):
Look at you got and I feel likethe perfectionist, like they
struggle because, you know, yougot eight out of 10. And like, I
got two wrong. I'm like, Well,you got eight right. It's right,
exactly an optimist and apessimist. Like, maybe you see
it. This is how I want as yourteacher, I want you to see it.
Like, look at all the stuff youdid. Well, okay, you just did a
little bit of math wrong. Youshould, you shouldn't think
(30:35):
you're a dummy at math. And thekids keep putting things like,
I'm so stupid. I'm like, Nope,you're smart, you're really
brave, and we fail sometimeswhen we're we're doing hard
things, and failing is part oflearning, like you learn all the
lessons when you're failing,right? That's the story of
competence.
Matt Kirchner (30:51):
Yeah, I learned a lot in high school because I
failed all the time, right? Imean, eight and eight, 810,
right? For me, would have been,like, a record strong
performance. So that wouldn't beanxiety, that's right. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah, I survived myhigh school journey, and we
talked about that quite a bit onthe on the podcast, but, but
probably could have used a lotmore. Kathy Myers type teachers,
(31:12):
and I had some great ones. Notto make light of my educational
journey, but I love the way thatyou're approaching some of these
things. I got to believe, Kathy,you've got advice for other
teachers who are thinking aboutthis as well. So we've got this
whole idea of sports psychology,of positive self talk, of
reinforcing those messagesinside of our brains, of
manifesting that intoperformance, inside and outside
(31:32):
the classroom. If I'm a teacherand I'm interested in taking
some of the lessons that you'velearned through your sports
psychology journey, and you bothformal education and application
in the classroom. What advicewould you have for those
teachers who are trying tofigure this out?
Kathy Meyers (31:45):
I feel like, as a teacher, we can change the
world, and I know I've changed alot of students over my 31 years
of teaching, and because I seethem in my neighborhood and
they're like, oh my gosh, you'remy favorite teacher. And I was
just opening the book, The Seanacre book about he does all the
research. Sean acre, he does alot of research on positive
psychology, and I just wasopening my book, and I had a
thank you letter in it said, youactually made math fun for me.
(32:08):
You made me love it. And really,that's, that's where we're
better than AI, where we canbring the fun and the
motivation. And I reached out toall the parents, because I knew
this parent teacher conferencewas coming up, I'm like, hey,
just wondered how you use mathin your everyday life, whether
you're a stay at home parent oryou're a CEO of a major company,
(32:28):
we use do a short video so I canshow it to my class and parents
like, this is so cool. I'd loveto tell my kids why I do math.
And had hair dressers say, Oh, Imix chemicals all day long. And
you know, people that you don'teven think use math, that really
use math all the time.
Absolutely, I feel like, like,I'm the motive as a teacher,
you're the motivator. You'rewhatever energy you bring every
day, kids feed off it. And so ifI bring positive, like, exciting
(32:50):
energy, then kids, like, fillit, right? They feed off that.
And if I bring, like, mopey,boo, hum, bug me. It's the same.
They feed off it. Yeah, it'scontagious. They would say,
what's wrong? Why are you okaytoday? Because kids are awesome.
They feel you. They they seeyou. You know, I'm halfway
through my year. They get toknow you. And I feel that. I
feel that in my own life, everyday, I want to try to bring my
(33:14):
best self to them, like, that'smy goal as a teacher. And
someday your best self is rough,like you're like, Okay, I gotta
cheer myself on. I gotta be myown cheerleader and my own self
taught to, like, pump myself,sure, right? And I shouldn't
expect other people to do that,right? But I gotta pump myself
up, and now I gotta go take mymy job seriously, right? Right?
Matt Kirchner (33:36):
Absolutely. I once had a person, this is
several companies ago. We werekind of talking about, like,
your mood when you come to workand so on and so to your point,
some people are mopey. Somepeople are really down. And I
always try to be super upbeat.
And if somebody asked me how Idoing, I'm telling my awesome or
amazing, or things are goinggreat, or whatever, somebody at
work one time said, you know,it's really annoying when you do
that, like the rest of us arekind of just getting going, and
(33:57):
you're like, all bubbly andhappy at work, and she's like,
it's actually kind of annoying.
And I'm like, well, sorry thatthat's annoying, but I'm not
changing it, because that's justa it's a great way to reinforce
with yourself, even on thosedays, and I don't have many of
them, but even on those dayswhen maybe you don't quite feel
like you're your best self, justtelling yourself you are and
putting yourself in the mode,and sure enough, an hour later,
(34:19):
it's like you forgot about oilwas ever weighing on you? And
you're you're often into yourinto your day. So I think that's
great advice for for educatorsis, you know, be your best self,
stay positive, set the tone foryour classroom and and then get
those really heartwarming notesfrom you know. So that teaching
for 31 years, students that weresophomores in high school when
you started are now, what wellinto their I guess, into their
(34:41):
mid 40s, right? I mean, so doyou still hear from
Kathy Meyers (34:44):
those students sometimes? Like, I was actually
at a in our city I live inDraper there was a parade and
there was a girl riding a horse,and she saw me in the parade. I
was just like, on the sidelineswith my children, and she's like
Myers, oh my goodness, you're myfavorite teacher ever. I need to
come talk to. After the parade,so stay right there and just
feel like it's such a likepayback moment where, like, oh,
(35:06):
I made a difference in someone'slife. And that's really why I
got into teaching a long timeago, because I wanted to help
people, especially with math. Iwas always pretty good at math,
but I wasn't some Brainiac, andso I worked hard at it.
Everybody can do math. Like,that's my message. And stem
stuff, like math is like thatbasis of a lot of STEM everyone
can do it. And we as teachersshould not be putting kids in
(35:29):
boxes saying, Nope, don't bedoing anything math related,
because, you know, we need to beright. Their best cheerleader
and their best like, you can dothis is get the people around
you work your hardest. You'regoing to maybe have to work way
harder than the kids sittingnext to you, but that's okay,
hard work valuable? Yeah, hardwork is, is where we learn lots
of the lessons of life. Iactually
Matt Kirchner (35:49):
had a teacher after my freshman year of high
school tell me that I wasn'tgood at math, and I should, and
I should choose a career thatdidn't require it, but I did get
myself on the right track. Endedup, you know, early in my career
before doing the stuff I'm doingnow, I got my CPA, and I was
working in public accounting,and that was the student, by the
way, that after his freshmanyear of high school, the teacher
said you should do somethingthat doesn't involve numbers.
(36:11):
I'm like, Well, that didn't workout so well for him, but it
worked out pretty well, prettywell for me. Speaking of things
working out pretty well,obviously your education pathway
has put you on a greattrajectory to your earlier
point, having these students, 31years later, coming and saying
you were my favorite teacher,you had an impact on my life.
And think about how many timesthat based evidence, over and
over and over again, as thatperson lives out their life,
(36:34):
that's why people like you getinto teaching, or at least it
should be, is to change thelives of students, and I think
that's probably the motivationfor most people that find their
way into education and choosethat as a career, as you kind of
reflect back on your educationjourney, Kathy both in terms of
being a student and now for 31years in the classroom, you know
what's something that youbelieve about education that
(36:55):
very few people wouldnecessarily see the same way.
Keep
Kathy Meyers (36:59):
believing in the underdog. Really get to know
kids and try to figure out whatmakes them tick, so that that
you can be that person to helpthem through that hard path
right now, right? So not
Matt Kirchner (37:10):
just focusing on your high flyers and on those
students that have it allfigured out and they're doing
amazing, but maybe that one thatis laying a little bit behind
Kathy Meyers (37:18):
and the high flyers like, keep flying high.
Like, let's keep motivating you.
I'll tell you harder things todo, because I want you to
succeed too. That's the hardthing with so many kids in our
classroom, is try to help all ofthem, right? Just make sure
you're helping the underdog.
Like, I believe in that for sureand and positive, positive,
positive mindset. Sometimes,with the mindset, you have to
(37:38):
fake it till you make it likesometimes you're really having a
bad day, and I still got to showup to work and I'm gonna just
cheer leading myself. And that'sa real thing that you when you
keep talking positive toyourself and bringing optimism
and hope that your brain createsneural pathways. This is
psychology of it of much morepositivity and much more
(38:00):
happiness in your life andsuccess and like, that's all the
positive psychology, cool stuffthat I believe in that so much.
And I don't, maybe other peoplebelieve in that, but I, for sure
believe in that.
Matt Kirchner (38:10):
I'm not sure everybody does. I'm a huge
believer in it. I mean, a lotof, a lot of the things that I'm
hearing from you, you know, atleast in my life, have their
roots and stuff I've read frompeople like, you know, Anthony
Robbins, certainly huge, hugeinto, you know, positive self
thinking. Napoleon Hill, uh,Norman Vincent, Peale, I mean,
you know, all of these, all thewriters that, in some cases, are
(38:30):
decades and decades old. Butthat's the message, right? I
mean, take it till you make itwhether you think you can or you
think you can't, you're right.
Is one of my favorite ones. It'sjust all about believing in
yourself and right, and beingable to create that future and
over, over the course of time,it becomes a habit. You start to
wire your your brain in thatparticular way, and it just
becomes, it repeats itself overand over and over again. So
really, really good way oflooking at the education
(38:52):
journey. The value of a teacher,you know, finding that underdog,
taking that person under yourwing, showing them how they can
be something. And those arereally the teachers that make
the biggest difference in my inmy opinion, it's not necessarily
the one that had the perfectcurriculum or the best way of
teaching, fill in the blank orwhatever. It's the one that
really took a personal interestin a student showed them they
had a skill or an ability theydidn't know they had put their
(39:13):
life on a career or, you know,personal pathway that they never
would have been on without thatindividual. It really is the
magic and the huge value ofteaching. We've got just one
time for one last question herewith Kathy Myers, and that
question for you, Kathy, is togo back in time. So let's turn
the clock back to that 15 yearold Kathy. And if you could give
that person any advice, whatwould that advice be?
Kathy Meyers (39:38):
Believe in your dreams, have dreams, and then do
everything you can to accomplishthem and fight for it and keep
learning every day of your life.
I teach kids to set goals insports psychology, and we set
goals just for, like, thequarter, which is 10 weeks, and
I'm 54 and I'm like, I need toset a new goal. We should never
quit setting. Goals, we shouldnever quit growing and learning.
(40:00):
That's what I'd say to myself.
You know, keep believing and tryto stay optimistic. When the
whole world can be pessimistic,and maybe people around you can
be pessimistic, you can stillchange the whole tone because of
your energy and your love andyour goodness, you give or your
motivation, you give to otherpeople.
Matt Kirchner (40:22):
Absolutely could not agree more. So be a lifelong
goal setter. Be a lifelonglearner. Whether you're 15 years
old or 54 keep putting thosegoals out in front of you. I'm
glad we set a goal of havingKathy on the podcast after we
met that day on the chair liftin Sun Valley Idaho. Just a
really, really inspiring messageabout how we can change the
world of education throughpositive thinking, positive
(40:42):
reinforcement, sportspsychology, thinking about our
problems the right way, gettingover the whole idea of math
anxiety. Anybody can be good atmath, they just have to have the
right mindset and the rightteacher. In a lot of cases, in
your case, Kathy, doing greatthings in the classroom. So
thank you so much for being withus. We really had a good time
having this conversation.
Enjoyed having you on thepodcast. Thank you. I appreciate
(41:02):
it so much, and we appreciateour audience being with us as
well here on The TechEd Podcast,Kathy mentioned the YouTube
channel that she's got for someof her content. She also
mentioned some books, as did Iwill link all that up in the
show notes for this week'sepisode. You will find those
show notes at TechEdpodcast.com/myers, that's TechEd
podcast.com/m. E, y, E, R, S,when you're done there on the
(41:28):
show notes, be sure to check usout on social media. We are all
over social we would love tohear from you, and until next
week on The TechEd Podcast. Myname is Matt Fricker. Thank you
for being with us. You
It's The TechEd Podcast. Welcome in. I am your
host. Matt Kirkner, you know Ihave been going through life way
too long and had way too manyexperiences and been put in
exactly the right place atexactly the right time to
believe that that is just acoincidence. And so it was that
I crossed paths with today'sguest on The TechEd Podcast. As
(00:28):
our audience might know, I spenda fair amount of time in Idaho
during the first quarter ofevery year. Love to ski, get a
lot of work done while I'm outthere as well. But that's where
I was several weeks ago, and Iwas sitting on the chair lift.
And for individuals in theaudience who are skiers, you
know that to pass time on a fiveor 10 minute lift ride, a lot of
times, you will strike up aconversation with whoever is on
(00:50):
that lift with you, stranger ornot, it starts out with, where
have you skied this morning?
What runs have you done? Andthen if that person is from
somewhere else, you ask wherethey're from. And if you have
enough time on that lift ride,you might even get into what
they do for a living. That iswhat happened with today's
guest, Kathy Myers. She is ateacher at corner Canyon High
School in Draper, Utah, and Iasked her what she did. We got
(01:12):
to talking about the work shewas doing. She found out she was
in education, and then I foundout what she was teaching. And I
was like, oh my goodness, I hadnever heard of this before in a
high school, our audience needsto meet this person and talk
about the great learning she isbringing into the high school
classroom. It's got applicationsacross stem and TechEd and
beyond. Let's start out bywelcoming Kathy Myers to The
(01:35):
TechEd Podcast. Kathy, great tosee you again, and thanks for
being with us.
Kathy Meyers (01:40):
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me today. I
really do believe in what Iteach.
Matt Kirchner (01:45):
No, I know you do, and that was so clear when
we were having thatconversation. And it was like, I
mean not just the content thatyou're teaching, but the fact
that you are so into it, and youstarted talking about some of
the benefits that your studentsare receiving, and students
coming back years later andsaying what I learned in this
course is paying dividendsthroughout life after high
school. That's got to beincredibly heartwarming. We will
(02:06):
talk about that, but the topicfirst, so tell our audience what
it is that you teach that is sounique in a high school setting.
Kathy Meyers (02:15):
All right, so I teach secondary math to 15 and
16 year olds, and I also teachsports psychology. I received my
master's degree from theUniversity of Utah, like, 25
years ago and and ever since Ifinished my degree, I started
teaching sports psychology.
They're like, that's so cool.
Like, go for it. You can teachit. And at the time, there
wasn't a curriculum for highschool, the high school level,
(02:36):
so I took the information I waslearning at my master's degree
and made it more to a highschool level, and that's what
I've been teaching. And I justkeep adding to it all the cool
research every year. Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (02:48):
it's awesome. So the the math part of it,
obviously not so unique. There'stons and tons of teachers that
are teaching math at the highschool level, but integrating
that sports psychology andteaching that sports psychology
really, really fascinating. Whatis sports psychology? If you
could give a definition in a fewsentences,
Kathy Meyers (03:03):
yeah, sports ecology is is getting your
mindset correct so that you canperform at your best. And it's
not necessary just for athletes.
It's for performers of allkinds, choir, theater, dance,
whatever. You know, you can nameit, but it's just getting your
mind in the moment, to go doyour best in the very moment
that you're in and not worryabout like past or future, and
(03:24):
try to have your mind connectedto your body. So it's going to
be awesome. Yeah.
Matt Kirchner (03:30):
So I can totally see applications for that,
certainly in sports, right? Imean, the psychology of sports
that how you think about thesport that you're in, how you
clear your mind, how you focusall these things, you know,
whether you're playing baseball,playing football, you're a
dancer, you're a skier, I meanhaving your mind where it needs
to be and being present super,super important in the field of
(03:51):
sports. But then you're takingthose methodologies into the
classroom. So go a little bitdeeper on what your students are
learning, right?
Kathy Meyers (03:59):
So how I take the idea into math is I just feel
like a lot of people have givenup when they're 15. A lot of
students don't love math, andthey're struggling. It's hard
for them, really, math is hardfor a lot of people, a lot of
the world. I have parent teacherconference next week, and I'll
have parents come, and it'sreally easy for people to say,
the parent the adults like wedon't speak very highly of math.
(04:21):
We don't, we don't act like wecan do it. Like parents come
adults that are pretty awesomecome and say, Oh, I'm not a math
person. Like people are sofreely willing to admit that.
And in a civilized society,first world country, you would
never admit that you can't read,but people are really happy to
say, Oh, I can't do math. That'sfor my husband, or that's for
the other people of the world.
Like, I am not that person, andI don't feel that way about math
(04:44):
at all. Like I feel like it'slike a sports skill. You want to
learn something. Okay? You canlearn it. Get the right people
around you to support you, learnthe technique, learn the
methods, and make sure it's fun.
Like, I feel like if 15 yearolds hate math, you. They have a
long life of math beinginvolved, and they're going to
get ripped off. They're maybenot going to get the job they
(05:06):
want because they're too scaredto do math. So
Matt Kirchner (05:09):
all these years that I, you know, I joke with my
kids somewhat that I was really,really good at math, until they
started putting letters in theequations. And as soon as I got
into algebra, and I'm like, Whatare these slides doing here? And
I feel like I'm actually prettydecent at math, but, but used to
joke about that, and you'reright. I never thought about it
that way. The number of peoplethat say, Well, I'm just not a
math person. I'm no good atmath. So that's a really, really
(05:30):
interesting perspective. And inas much as we talked about, you
know, STEM education, beingscience, technology, engineering
and math, math, certainly in oneform or another, fundamental,
there's so many careeropportunities, so many life
skills, right? And so ifsomebody's giving up on
themselves as a freshman orsophomore in high school, long,
long life ahead of them, to yourpoint of having to rely on math,
that maybe they haven't builtthose skills because they
(05:51):
haven't built the confidencethat they too can be good at it.
Am I? Am I getting that
Kathy Meyers (05:55):
right? Absolutely, it's I feel like it's all about
confidence and about like me astheir teacher, instilling a safe
place for them to learn and growand have a growth mindset and
fail easily, like, if I justfeel like that's a huge part of
learning is, is it not goingwell? And then, hey, try again,
right?
Matt Kirchner (06:11):
What's the experience like for a student?
So I'm a student that, here Iam, let's just say I'm you're
teaching freshman, sophomore,juniors, what? What you're
primarily those, yeah,sophomores, yeah. Okay, so we're
teaching sophomores. I'm a highschool sophomore. I get into
Kathy's class, and I'm thatstudent that says I just I've
struggled with math. I've neverquite gotten it, and it's
getting harder and harder.
What's the experience like forthat student? How are you
(06:33):
working with that student in away that would be different from
a traditional classroom, right?
Kathy Meyers (06:39):
My day one to them is, I tell them that I'm their
cheerleader, like, I'm here tosupport you however you need me,
right? Like, I mean, I brought Ihave a pom pom, like, I simply
pull it out the first day, andI'm like, I'm your cheerleader,
you guys. I'm just here tofacilitate however you need me
to be your teacher this year. Idon't know what that means for
you, but I'm gonna put the workin as your teacher, and I expect
(07:02):
you to put the work in, and Ikeep trying, like, I'm going to
try to give you a place to feelsafe and to feel like you can
ask the questions that you canbe supported when it doesn't go
well. Like I want everybody totry, and we're going to have a
lot of wrong answers, and thenwe'll try to figure out how to
get to the right one. That'swhat I feel like my job is as
their teacher is to really tryto believe in them and try to
(07:24):
give them some hope. I guess itgoes back to self talk. First
what I teach in sportspsychology, one of the number
one things I teach in sportspsychology is how we talk to
ourselves. Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (07:34):
so go deeper on that. I'm a huge believer, by
the way, in what you're saying.
I mean, I you know, things likemental health are real things
depression, they're real things.
You know, I'm not making lightof any of that, of course, but
so much of having kind of thishappy, successful, you know,
content life is kind of how werun our brains and how we think
about things. And so talk alittle bit more about that self
talk and how students canreinforce positive and, for that
(07:56):
matter, negative behaviors bywhat they're saying in their
head. And
Kathy Meyers (07:59):
I do a whole bunch of topics in sports psychology,
but I start, I make sure I keepgoing back to self talk, because
I feel like we can eithersabotage ourself and go down.
I'm stupid, I'm dumb, I'm I'mnot adequate. I can't do it. I
just I'm gonna quit, or we cansay I'm awesome. I can find the
right people to help me. I cankeep trying. I can do a little
(08:19):
part of it. Maybe I understandthis part, but I don't
understand this part, but Idon't understand this part.
Breaking the problem down issuper valuable for kids that are
getting overwhelmed by somethingthat looks big to them. When I
hear kids talking negative, I'mlike, Okay, wait, you can do
this. I can help you together,you and I can figure this out.
But we set ourselves up to failmiserably when we're telling
(08:40):
ourselves we're not adequate,sure, and we're not enough, or
we're not I don't work hardenough. I don't stuff like that,
you know. And, and how I teachself talk in sports Psych is I
teach it like we're thegatekeeper in our head. Like, if
you ever been to I have aneighborhood and in my city that
there's a gate, and there's aguy that sits at the little
house, and you drive up to it,and I don't live there, but my
(09:03):
daughter went to a friend'shouse, and the guy asked me
where I'm going, and I tell him,and I guess he believed me, and
he lets me in, right? But thegatekeeper doesn't have to let
you in. They can say, Nope,you're you're not coming in,
right? And it's like, that's howwe have to be in our minds, is
we have to be the gatekeeper,like, when the negative starts
sneaking in, like, I'm not goodenough, I'm not smart enough,
(09:24):
I'm not adequate, I'm notconfident. We gotta stop it.
Sports Psychology says, like,You should do something
physical, like, when you see thenegatives coming in, you, like,
snap your fingers and that goes,Oh yeah, I gotta be positive,
right? Really? Like, we have tobe so strong in our minds and
go, Oh, stop. I can't that's nothelping me succeed. That
(09:45):
negative self talk doesn't helpme be awesome. It's gonna take
me on a bad course.
Matt Kirchner (09:51):
Does the opposite, right? It reinforces
those negative behaviors andthose negative thoughts,
Kathy Meyers (09:55):
right? Yeah, I'm too dumb to learn math like
that's not I want anybody tobelieve when they're 15. Yeah?
Every
Matt Kirchner (10:00):
once while, somebody in the in the studios
of The TechEd Podcast,unintentional on my part, will
hear me mutter to myself, I'm agenius, or, Wow, am I brilliant.
And it's exactly, it's exactlythe opposite. And it's not, it's
not my ego alive and well,necessarily, it's the it is. You
know, you, the more of thosemessages that you send to
yourself, the more you'repositioning yourself to live out
(10:21):
those behaviors, and it becomesa cycle. Right? Absolutely, the
more you reinforce those things,whether positive or negative,
the more you replay those thingsover and over in your brain, the
more likely you are to end up ina situation where you're
creating your own reality inyour own future, and overcome
obstacles in a lot of ways,based upon how you're thinking,
you can create those negativeoutcomes as well. So it sounds
like we're really, reallyaligned in terms of that line of
(10:42):
thinking. So it's one thingcertainly important to snap your
fingers, be your gatekeeper, putup the stop sign, tell that
mental image or that thought togo away. But then you got to
discipline yourself to thinkabout something that that's
opposite, right? That's going totake you in the right direction.
So, so what happens in thatregard, right?
Kathy Meyers (11:00):
So then I feel like, you know, the positive
self talk, and I have this, likehitting head, where you have all
the negative things, and thenyou're like, what are the Just
One things? Usually it's like,task oriented with a sport. I
coach softball team here too,and if you, like, snap your
wrist at the end, what is thetechnique that I should do to
make this happen? I feel likeoriented on the task or self
(11:21):
talk. You know, for battersgetting up to bat, the big thing
is to strike out. But you don'twant to say strike out in your
head. You want to say quickhands or see it, hit it or drive
through the ball. You want thatpositive message to replace
that, like positiveaffirmations, right? And there's
all sorts of ones in math thatI've put together, and I've had
kids come up with them too.
Like, their kids are so smartand amazing. Like, I'm smart, I
(11:42):
can try harder. I could just trya little longer. Sometimes you
just need to put in a littlemore time or a different method.
Like I talked to you about, Iteach Sudoku, and there's so
many different methods forsolving Sudoku that, okay, just
try a different way. That way isnot working out. So try a new
way. There's all sorts of newways, and that's advantageous to
(12:02):
all of us. Oh, this isn'tworking out. I gotta try
something new. Like, I'm notgonna keep hitting my head
against the wall and it notgoing well. I gotta try
something new.
Matt Kirchner (12:13):
So you're actually teaching Sudoku in the
class. Tell me about that. Ialways start
Kathy Meyers (12:17):
my class with that. And you guys know Sudoku
most math people do, or STEMpeople do, right? Sure? Yeah, I
know for sure. I know itabsolutely anyway. But Sudoku,
you know, there's a bunch ofmethods for solving them. Like
you can either, like, figure outall the numbers in a column, or
all the numbers in a row. Or youcan do like, the box and figure
out numbers that goes in thatbox. Or every Sudoku, regular
(12:39):
Sudoku, anyway, you know everynumber has nine, so there's,
there's those four strategies.
And so I teach them how to doSudoku, and I teach them
strategies, and I teach them onething about it is, like, you
should always use pencil so youcan race and and make sure you
don't put a number where itdoesn't belong. Don't guess,
like you have to logic it out inyour mind. You have to do
process of elimination, or youhave to make sure you can say
(13:01):
why the number goes into place,right? So then we start, like,
doing it, and you get stuck,like you get stuck with two
numbers, and you can guess, but,you know, that's a rule, you
can't guess so. So when I getstuck, I I'm like, Okay, what do
you do next guys? And I justfeel like they keep saying, try
another way, like, try adifferent method. Like, try the
(13:23):
box way. Try how many numbers inthe thing? Like, what one has
the most numbers? Maybe youcould figure out with all the
threes, find all nine threes inthe box. So I just don't want
kids to quit, you know, like,that's the message here. Like,
don't quit when it gets hard.
When it gets hard is when weshould dig in and go, oh, there
(13:44):
should be another way. I'msmart. I can figure this out. I
can I can work on this. I canhave a new something new could
come maybe. So I feel likethat's how Sudoku is so
valuable, way of teaching kidsto problem solve, because math
is just problem solving,
Matt Kirchner (13:58):
sure, problem solving, hitting a wall, finding
another way, and to your point,not guessing which can create
problems down the road, right? Imean, as soon as you guess, if
you guess wrong, you could get along way down a puzzle and then
realize that you made a mistake.
So you have to make sure thatyou're solving it with logic,
not to and so it really soundslike that that process really
sets the tone for what they'regoing to do in the rest of the
class, which obviously includesa lot of problem solving,
(14:20):
includes a lot of math, alsoincludes things like leadership
and teamwork and and publicspeaking, which you you wouldn't
necessarily maybe think wouldbelong or would be common in
this type of coursework. So tellme about why it's so important
to teach those as well.
Kathy Meyers (14:34):
Yeah, leadership and teamwork, leadership. You
know, I just teach kids thateven though you don't wear the
captain band and you're thecaptain of the team. Like you're
gonna have places in your lifethat you're gonna lead. Maybe
it's in your family. Maybe it'seven in this classroom, like,
when I'm the teacher trying toget get control of 36 kids, you
know, I have, like, I'm in Utah,I have a lot of kids in my
classes, right? And, you know,some of the kids can help me be
(14:57):
the leaders, to calm people downand and get. Both motivated and
focused and in that realm. Sothere's just lots of ways where
leaders, and it usually is justabout respect and about putting
in extra time and effort.
Leaders show up early, they staylate, they do the extra things.
And, you know, with leadershipin stem like, Oh, I could do the
extra things to do better atthis math class or this test or
(15:18):
whatever's next, what's what'sthe extra thing, right?
Teamwork. I always talk aboutbig team, little me and the
whole plan of the team is sortof bigger than just me alone,
but it also means that I don'twant to shrink. I want to shine
and give my talents and gifts tothe situation, whether it's a
(15:40):
classroom, whether it's a sportsfield, that I need to give my
gifts and talents, and I wanteverybody else to bring their
best selves too. It's not reallyme competing against you. When
we're on a team like you bringyour best self. I'll bring my
best self, and everybody bringstheir best stuff, and we're
gonna make an awesome, amazingproduct, right? But I feel like
sometimes when there's oneleader, you know, even like, I'm
(16:02):
the coach of the softball team,yeah, my ideas are valuable, but
so are everybody else's ideas.
Like I need them. My I have fourcoaches I'm working with, and I
need them to bring their besttalents and best ideas to my
team to make all these girlshave a great experience. That's
my goal.
Matt Kirchner (16:20):
I was listening to a presentation last week
where somebody said, when I goalone, I go fast. When I go with
others, we go far. And I thoughtthat was a really interesting
way of looking at teamwork. Socertainly understand the value
of teaching it and the fact thatyou're teaching it is amazing.
What are some of the strategiesyou use to impart those lessons
to your students? Well,
Kathy Meyers (16:37):
in sports, take we actually play a game, and then
they come up with ideas of whatmakes a good team, like I put
them in groups of four and givethem some what is big team,
little mean. What does that evenmean? How do you use it in your
job? How do you use it in thisclassroom? How do you use it at
your work? And so they giveexamples of how they can play
(16:59):
their role at their job, or theycan, you know, play their role
in their family, like everybodyyou know has these parts of
their lives that we are. We'reTeam of and I'm a team in my
softball team, but I'm a teamwhen I'm the teacher in my
classroom, like we're all a teamtogether. And if there's a bunch
of people not on board, then wegot to figure out how to
(17:19):
motivate them and get them onboard and have them bring their
best, best talents and gifts,or, you know, they're not going
to contribute, and we need theirideas, because everybody's ideas
are valuable.
Matt Kirchner (17:29):
Absolutely So teaching, teaching those
students that maybe aren'tcompletely on board, to refocus,
to look at their learning in adifferent way. I know that
refocusing is something that youteach in the classroom along
with goal setting. And you knowwhat you say is playing to win,
not playing not to lose, yeah,which we've all met, many of us,
I certainly have heard that in asports setting, you want to play
to win, you don't want to playnot to lose, right? How do you
(17:52):
take those types of lessons andthen make them apply to kind of
the greater process of goingthrough life here on the planet
Earth? Right?
Kathy Meyers (17:59):
Play to win. It's an awesome concept, but it's
mostly about like, having a gameplan and being aggressive and
taking risks. I'm not sayinglike, dangerous risks, like
Squirrel Suit jumping off, youknow, stuff like that. I'm just
taking maybe risks in business,maybe risks at your job, maybe,
you know for sure, risk insport, where I'm gonna steal the
base I'm gonna take that risk Imight get out might fail. I feel
(18:22):
like when we take risks, we faila lot, but you might never get
ahead if you don't take thatrisk, and you don't take that
jump leap of faith to the nextlevel of of trying or being
assertive and meeting new peopleor getting out of your comfort
zone. I feel like you knowplaying to win is getting out of
your comfort zone and reallytrying new things that could be
advantageous to you?
Matt Kirchner (18:43):
Yeah, I think about my football fan. I'm a
sports fan in general, but, youknow, I think about football,
and we used to joke about theprevent defense, right? I mean
putting your deep backs in yourcorners and your, you know, your
safety is way, way back off ofthe receivers to kind of prevent
the big play holding them off.
Yeah, the prevent defense was,was one way of preventing your
team to win, from winning,right? I mean, you're, you're
playing not to lose, right?
(19:05):
Yeah, yeah. You're running theball the whole fourth quarter
because you've got a, you know,you've got a 10 point lead and
and you're trying to protectthat lead, and then the other
team comes back and scores twotouchdowns and takes that
Victoria away from you. Sothat's playing not to lose and
playing to win is, look, yeah,and I'm going to be sensible,
I'm not going to take crazyrisk, but let's play this game
to win. Let's, let's beaggressive. Let's keep pushing
and taking that lesson, theninto into students life. So tell
(19:29):
us a little bit then about, youknow, some we were talking about
this on the lift, right? Youwere like, Oh, it's just so
rewarding. I have students thatcome back once they're, you
know, whatever they're doingafter high school, going into,
you know, post secondaryeducation, going into the
workforce, and coming back andsaying, Oh, my goodness, I
learned this lesson, and itapplied so far outside of what
we did in the classroom. Do youhave any great stories about
that that'll resonate with theaudience?
Kathy Meyers (19:50):
Yeah, I was thinking about some. I have some
kids that like go and get jobslater. Every you need to go
figure out how to employthemselves, right? And we
practice job interview questionsand. A big part of sports
psychology is preparing well,like, it's one of your
controllables. Like, I canprepare for things. I can
prepare for the math test. I canpractice those things. And he
(20:10):
came back a couple days later,like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad we
practiced that in class, becauseI was so familiar with the
questions, and I had so muchconfidence because I prepared
well, and I practice it out, andI thought through it in my mind.
And anyway, that was cool. And Ijust had to yesterday, I had a
biker. He's in Puerto Rico,racing mountain bikes, and and
he sent me a text. He's like,I'm racing tomorrow. Give me
(20:33):
some tips. What do you think?
And so I just told him, makesure you practice the technical
parts. I'm a mountain biker. Andso there's technical parts where
you know, if you practice them,like imagery, even in your mind,
just practice so many times inyour mind that it feels
comfortable to you. And that'ssure, that's the parts where
other people will slip up.
(20:54):
There's this cool part. It's aJapanese word called kaizen.
It's about practicing ourweaknesses and and I feel like,
you know, we don't want topractice our weaknesses because
we don't understand them. Weit's hard for us, it's
embarrassing to practice ourweaknesses. But I had, I have
this mom that's so awesome, andshe's a fantastic teacher, and
she I was playing the pianogrowing up as a kid, and she
(21:18):
would be in the kitchenlistening, and she's like, you
know, that one part that's notvery good. Practice that part 20
times and say, there I am, and,but that's the hard part. So I
didn't really want to practiceit, but, but I did, and I'd
practice that hard part really awhole bunch. And then she's
like, when you practice the hardpart, then the whole thing
sounds good. And I feel like, asa math teacher, like, when I get
(21:39):
about the study guide, if I say,okay, don't do any of the stuff
you know, only do the hard partsand do the hard parts and
practice and practice andpractice them. And if you can't
do the hard parts, I'm here tohelp you. I'm your helper,
right? And I'm your cheerleader.
But learn how to do the thingsyou don't know, because when you
understand those, the whole testwill go well for you, because
you already know the otherstuff. But human nature, we all
(21:59):
practice the things we're goodat because it feels good and it
makes us happy. Like, Oh, good.
I'm good at this. I'm good atsomething, right? So it feels
good to be good at something.
And the hard things, we don'tknow how to really like deal
with them. And so I feel like,when we can figure out how to
deal with those hard things andhave other methods, like the
(22:20):
Sudoku. I'm going to try thisother method that might help me
with the hard thing, or I'mgoing to get a teacher that can
help me and be patient, or I'mgoing to do Khan Academy. Or we
got Google. Like, I didn't haveGoogle, I was taking math, right
college, for sure,
Matt Kirchner (22:35):
yeah, there was no YouTube to watch somebody do
the do the
Kathy Meyers (22:39):
math videos. Like, there's no excuse for these kids
to not learn. I'm like, Come on,guys, you got absolutely
Matt Kirchner (22:44):
we'll make sure and link up that channel in the
in the show notes, for theaudience, if they want to, they
want to check that out. I didn'tknow you were a mountain biker.
I love that. Amazing. How manypeople get into skiing and
mountain biking? Probably a lotof the same, you know, the same
personality traits and kind ofthrill seeking, right? I love
mountain biking. In fact, myfavorite place to mountain bike
is probably three hours or sosoutheast of you in in more. So
(23:06):
love that whole area and it, youknow, some, just some
interesting examples that areresonating with me as you're
going through that. The firstone is, and we have great
mountain biking, believe it ornot, in the Midwest. And about
an hour from where I live, theEmma Carlin trail is some of the
best mountain biking anywhere inthe Midwest. And used to ride
that a lot. Yes, it's awesome,but used to ride that. It's
different style mountain biking,right? You're not on a on a
(23:28):
trail like you would be in thein the West. You're on a, you
know, it's a lot of dirt, it'ssand, it's, you know, what have
you, not a lot of slick rock,but, but, but awesome mountain
biking. And you'll see the theriders that are really good,
like, if you're doing atechnical climb on a mountain
bike, and all of a sudden, youknow, you lose your balance a
little bit. Put a foot down,stop. You don't have any
(23:49):
momentum. You know, probablynine out of 10 bikers just push
their bike up to the top ofwhatever, get off going. And
it's that one out of 10 thatturns around and goes back to
the bottom, says, I'm gonna trythat again. Those are the
really, really good riders, youknow, they're taking the hard
part, they're doing the partthat they're struggling with,
and they're practicing that overand over and over again, just
like the example from the thepiano piece that you can't play.
(24:10):
So love that example, the otherone. And I actually write a
magazine column every month.
I've been toying with an idea.
You know, when I'm teachingpeople how to ride a mountain
bike, everybody wants to lookat, you know, like, what's right
in front of my wheel, rightwhat's right in front of my
wheel. And if you do that,guaranteed you're running into
something, or you're running offthe trail. Or they, like, pick
the thing they want to avoid,and they stare at it, and then
(24:31):
they run right into it. And sothough, yeah, the whole logical
psychology and mountain bikingis looking down the trail,
looking at what's ahead of you,and, you know, like, 1020, feet,
and your your body in yourmuscle memory, you'll take care
of the rest, right? It'll steeryou through that stuff. You
don't have to look right at it.
There's a huge life lesson kindof buried in there somewhere as
well, right? Like, for goalsetting, or like, look ahead.
Like, there's this part inDraper where it's a practicing
(24:53):
and they have all these signs,and one of them is, look ahead,
pick a path. And I feel likeevery time I pick my. Is up and
go, oh yeah, I got this. My bodyknows how to do this and and
it's so great. And I feel likeit's goal setting. And my
favorite quote about goalsetting is from Rudy at the
movie. Rudy, we know that I
Unknown (25:11):
short noise for sure.
Of course. Yeah, absolutely. Hesays,
Kathy Meyers (25:16):
dreams are what make life tolerable. And I just
like, we have to have goals.
And, you know, I teach writingthem down and put them in your
mirror where you brush yourteeth, because everybody brushes
their teeth, right? And, youknow, and write those goals down
and look at them and look aheadin your life, and, you know, go,
be awesome. Like, just, I havethis sign says, Go, be great.
And I just really want kids to,like, believe they can do things
(25:38):
and not if I get to the hardthings, that there's lots of
ways around the hard things andthrough, and there's people on
the earth to help you, andthey're putting your path for
sure, too. So
Matt Kirchner (25:52):
my favorite reading is Malcolm Gladwell, who
talks about the people that facethe most hurdles while they're
going through, you know, whilethey're going through their
younger life, sometimes end upbeing the best leaders when they
get to their adult life, becausethey get so good at getting
going around, over, through thechallenges that are in front of
them, that when they you know,as if you have those challenges
during your you know during yourpathway, whatever that is,
(26:12):
through education, then when youget to adulthood, you're way
more adept at navigating some ofthose hurdles. And so much of
what you're doing is kind ofright along those lines. So one
of those hurdles is this wholeidea of math anxiety, which I'll
be honest with you, I didn'teven know was a thing. What is
math anxiety? And how do youtell your How do you teach your
students to to get past it andto handle right? I
Kathy Meyers (26:31):
think it's just the the social even our whole
society is like, oh, math is toohard. It's, it's way above my
pay grade. I'm I can't do that.
I think we talk ourselves out ofit the first time it gets hard
and we don't remember that. Ohyeah, there's another way.
There's another method. Like,maybe they haven't had a
positive environment to learnin. Like, one of my jobs is be
really patient with meth anxietyand kind and caring. Like they
(26:53):
know that I want them to learnand I want them to get through
this obstacle. And I feel likethat's why you have teachers,
right? I know people can all doonline school and other kinds of
of options, but that's why theyhave me, right? That's because
I'm going to love them throughit and and care about them in
this moment. I can't do it. Ican't do it. And I feel like,
(27:14):
with meth anxiety, you canchange that self talk to I got
this, I'm awesome. I have thisbig sign at the front of my
class that says, You got this.
And some days, you know, I get,I get to work every morning at
seven, and I coach a softballteam, and I'm not home till like
nine o'clock at night sometimes,and and signs up there for me, I
got this, like, I can go bepositive with these kids, and I
(27:37):
can go love them and and helpthem learn today and and be
patient with them. But I feellike if every time it gets hard,
we go, Oh, you got this. Okay, Ijust have to try a new method.
Back to Sudoku, coming backaround to that don't just don't
quit. I mean, that's just mymessage to 15 year olds and and
everybody else is like, when itgets tough, like that's when we
should dig in more and find anew method and find a bet, you
(28:02):
know, maybe it's other people tosurround ourselves with for a
minute. Maybe, like, there'slots of avenues that you maybe
have to change if you're gonnamove through that hard thing,
right?
Matt Kirchner (28:11):
Well, and I think there's a really good message
about the value of teachers,especially in this age of
technology, that was embedded inthat, that last answer that you
offered, Kathy and hey, there's,a there's a lot of anxiety,
speaking of anxiety andeducation right now about, you
know, the advent of technology,the ability to use data to
predict a student's outcomes, torearrange, you know, course
sequences, or their path througheducation, to guarantee, or at
(28:34):
least to give us the best chanceat an outcome. One that's kind
of been bouncing around in myhead is with all the things that
AI and machine learning can do,what can AI and machine learning
not do? And I think you justtouched on one of the really
important parts of that. Youknow, there's some, some study I
read about a year ago that saidthat a six month old cat has
more emotional intelligence thanchat GPT does. A six month old
(28:58):
cat can read your emotions andrespond to your emotions better
than than generative artificialintelligence. And so, you know,
you think about the value of ateacher, the ability to not just
usher a student through theireducation pathway, but to, you
know, as we say, oftentimes, topull them when they need to be
pulled, to push them when theyneed to be pushed, to hug them
when they need a hug,figuratively, at least. And then
(29:20):
to you know, to have the wisdomto know which to do when, which
really is kind of an example, Ithink of the incredible value
that teachers are going to havethat in as much as we can use
technology and we can useYouTube and we can use Google to
sharpen our skills and to learnthings we didn't know. In the
end, the good teachers that bothembrace technology and continue
(29:42):
with that, that incredibleempathy for their students, and
the ability to relate to astudent and push, pull, hug when
they need to be push, pulled andhugged. Really, really
important. Do you see it thesame way as we kind of looked at
the future of education?
Absolutely.
Kathy Meyers (29:54):
I mean, the math anxiety. I don't think that goes
away with AI. I think it goesaway. With somebody giving you
some confidence and changingyour path a little bit and
saying, Maybe you should look atit a little bit different. Maybe
you don't really have mathanxiety. Maybe this one part's
just hard for you. You know, thewhole thing's not hard for you.
(30:14):
Look at you got and I feel likethe perfectionist, like they
struggle because, you know, yougot eight out of 10. And like, I
got two wrong. I'm like, Well,you got eight right. It's right,
exactly an optimist and apessimist. Like, maybe you see
it. This is how I want as yourteacher, I want you to see it.
Like, look at all the stuff youdid. Well, okay, you just did a
little bit of math wrong. Youshould, you shouldn't think
(30:35):
you're a dummy at math. And thekids keep putting things like,
I'm so stupid. I'm like, Nope,you're smart, you're really
brave, and we fail sometimeswhen we're we're doing hard
things, and failing is part oflearning, like you learn all the
lessons when you're failing,right? That's the story of
competence.
Matt Kirchner (30:51):
Yeah, I learned a lot in high school because I
failed all the time, right? Imean, eight and eight, 810,
right? For me, would have been,like, a record strong
performance. So that wouldn't beanxiety, that's right. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah, I survived myhigh school journey, and we
talked about that quite a bit onthe on the podcast, but, but
probably could have used a lotmore. Kathy Myers type teachers,
(31:12):
and I had some great ones. Notto make light of my educational
journey, but I love the way thatyou're approaching some of these
things. I got to believe, Kathy,you've got advice for other
teachers who are thinking aboutthis as well. So we've got this
whole idea of sports psychology,of positive self talk, of
reinforcing those messagesinside of our brains, of
manifesting that intoperformance, inside and outside
(31:32):
the classroom. If I'm a teacherand I'm interested in taking
some of the lessons that you'velearned through your sports
psychology journey, and you bothformal education and application
in the classroom. What advicewould you have for those
teachers who are trying tofigure this out?
Kathy Meyers (31:45):
I feel like, as a teacher, we can change the
world, and I know I've changed alot of students over my 31 years
of teaching, and because I seethem in my neighborhood and
they're like, oh my gosh, you'remy favorite teacher. And I was
just opening the book, The Seanacre book about he does all the
research. Sean acre, he does alot of research on positive
psychology, and I just wasopening my book, and I had a
thank you letter in it said, youactually made math fun for me.
(32:08):
You made me love it. And really,that's, that's where we're
better than AI, where we canbring the fun and the
motivation. And I reached out toall the parents, because I knew
this parent teacher conferencewas coming up, I'm like, hey,
just wondered how you use mathin your everyday life, whether
you're a stay at home parent oryou're a CEO of a major company,
(32:28):
we use do a short video so I canshow it to my class and parents
like, this is so cool. I'd loveto tell my kids why I do math.
And had hair dressers say, Oh, Imix chemicals all day long. And
you know, people that you don'teven think use math, that really
use math all the time.
Absolutely, I feel like, like,I'm the motive as a teacher,
you're the motivator. You'rewhatever energy you bring every
day, kids feed off it. And so ifI bring positive, like, exciting
(32:50):
energy, then kids, like, fillit, right? They feed off that.
And if I bring, like, mopey,boo, hum, bug me. It's the same.
They feed off it. Yeah, it'scontagious. They would say,
what's wrong? Why are you okaytoday? Because kids are awesome.
They feel you. They they seeyou. You know, I'm halfway
through my year. They get toknow you. And I feel that. I
feel that in my own life, everyday, I want to try to bring my
(33:14):
best self to them, like, that'smy goal as a teacher. And
someday your best self is rough,like you're like, Okay, I gotta
cheer myself on. I gotta be myown cheerleader and my own self
taught to, like, pump myself,sure, right? And I shouldn't
expect other people to do that,right? But I gotta pump myself
up, and now I gotta go take mymy job seriously, right? Right?
Matt Kirchner (33:36):
Absolutely. I once had a person, this is
several companies ago. We werekind of talking about, like,
your mood when you come to workand so on and so to your point,
some people are mopey. Somepeople are really down. And I
always try to be super upbeat.
And if somebody asked me how Idoing, I'm telling my awesome or
amazing, or things are goinggreat, or whatever, somebody at
work one time said, you know,it's really annoying when you do
that, like the rest of us arekind of just getting going, and
(33:57):
you're like, all bubbly andhappy at work, and she's like,
it's actually kind of annoying.
And I'm like, well, sorry thatthat's annoying, but I'm not
changing it, because that's justa it's a great way to reinforce
with yourself, even on thosedays, and I don't have many of
them, but even on those dayswhen maybe you don't quite feel
like you're your best self, justtelling yourself you are and
putting yourself in the mode,and sure enough, an hour later,
(34:19):
it's like you forgot about oilwas ever weighing on you? And
you're you're often into yourinto your day. So I think that's
great advice for for educatorsis, you know, be your best self,
stay positive, set the tone foryour classroom and and then get
those really heartwarming notesfrom you know. So that teaching
for 31 years, students that weresophomores in high school when
you started are now, what wellinto their I guess, into their
(34:41):
mid 40s, right? I mean, so doyou still hear from
Kathy Meyers (34:44):
those students sometimes? Like, I was actually
at a in our city I live inDraper there was a parade and
there was a girl riding a horse,and she saw me in the parade. I
was just like, on the sidelineswith my children, and she's like
Myers, oh my goodness, you're myfavorite teacher ever. I need to
come talk to. After the parade,so stay right there and just
feel like it's such a likepayback moment where, like, oh,
(35:06):
I made a difference in someone'slife. And that's really why I
got into teaching a long timeago, because I wanted to help
people, especially with math. Iwas always pretty good at math,
but I wasn't some Brainiac, andso I worked hard at it.
Everybody can do math. Like,that's my message. And stem
stuff, like math is like thatbasis of a lot of STEM everyone
can do it. And we as teachersshould not be putting kids in
(35:29):
boxes saying, Nope, don't bedoing anything math related,
because, you know, we need to beright. Their best cheerleader
and their best like, you can dothis is get the people around
you work your hardest. You'regoing to maybe have to work way
harder than the kids sittingnext to you, but that's okay,
hard work valuable? Yeah, hardwork is, is where we learn lots
of the lessons of life. Iactually
Matt Kirchner (35:49):
had a teacher after my freshman year of high
school tell me that I wasn'tgood at math, and I should, and
I should choose a career thatdidn't require it, but I did get
myself on the right track. Endedup, you know, early in my career
before doing the stuff I'm doingnow, I got my CPA, and I was
working in public accounting,and that was the student, by the
way, that after his freshmanyear of high school, the teacher
said you should do somethingthat doesn't involve numbers.
(36:11):
I'm like, Well, that didn't workout so well for him, but it
worked out pretty well, prettywell for me. Speaking of things
working out pretty well,obviously your education pathway
has put you on a greattrajectory to your earlier
point, having these students, 31years later, coming and saying
you were my favorite teacher,you had an impact on my life.
And think about how many timesthat based evidence, over and
over and over again, as thatperson lives out their life,
(36:34):
that's why people like you getinto teaching, or at least it
should be, is to change thelives of students, and I think
that's probably the motivationfor most people that find their
way into education and choosethat as a career, as you kind of
reflect back on your educationjourney, Kathy both in terms of
being a student and now for 31years in the classroom, you know
what's something that youbelieve about education that
(36:55):
very few people wouldnecessarily see the same way.
Keep
Kathy Meyers (36:59):
believing in the underdog. Really get to know
kids and try to figure out whatmakes them tick, so that that
you can be that person to helpthem through that hard path
right now, right? So not
Matt Kirchner (37:10):
just focusing on your high flyers and on those
students that have it allfigured out and they're doing
amazing, but maybe that one thatis laying a little bit behind
Kathy Meyers (37:18):
and the high flyers like, keep flying high.
Like, let's keep motivating you.
I'll tell you harder things todo, because I want you to
succeed too. That's the hardthing with so many kids in our
classroom, is try to help all ofthem, right? Just make sure
you're helping the underdog.
Like, I believe in that for sureand and positive, positive,
positive mindset. Sometimes,with the mindset, you have to
(37:38):
fake it till you make it likesometimes you're really having a
bad day, and I still got to showup to work and I'm gonna just
cheer leading myself. And that'sa real thing that you when you
keep talking positive toyourself and bringing optimism
and hope that your brain createsneural pathways. This is
psychology of it of much morepositivity and much more
(38:00):
happiness in your life andsuccess and like, that's all the
positive psychology, cool stuffthat I believe in that so much.
And I don't, maybe other peoplebelieve in that, but I, for sure
believe in that.
Matt Kirchner (38:10):
I'm not sure everybody does. I'm a huge
believer in it. I mean, a lotof, a lot of the things that I'm
hearing from you, you know, atleast in my life, have their
roots and stuff I've read frompeople like, you know, Anthony
Robbins, certainly huge, hugeinto, you know, positive self
thinking. Napoleon Hill, uh,Norman Vincent, Peale, I mean,
you know, all of these, all thewriters that, in some cases, are
(38:30):
decades and decades old. Butthat's the message, right? I
mean, take it till you make itwhether you think you can or you
think you can't, you're right.
Is one of my favorite ones. It'sjust all about believing in
yourself and right, and beingable to create that future and
over, over the course of time,it becomes a habit. You start to
wire your your brain in thatparticular way, and it just
becomes, it repeats itself overand over and over again. So
really, really good way oflooking at the education
(38:52):
journey. The value of a teacher,you know, finding that underdog,
taking that person under yourwing, showing them how they can
be something. And those arereally the teachers that make
the biggest difference in my inmy opinion, it's not necessarily
the one that had the perfectcurriculum or the best way of
teaching, fill in the blank orwhatever. It's the one that
really took a personal interestin a student showed them they
had a skill or an ability theydidn't know they had put their
(39:13):
life on a career or, you know,personal pathway that they never
would have been on without thatindividual. It really is the
magic and the huge value ofteaching. We've got just one
time for one last question herewith Kathy Myers, and that
question for you, Kathy, is togo back in time. So let's turn
the clock back to that 15 yearold Kathy. And if you could give
that person any advice, whatwould that advice be?
Kathy Meyers (39:38):
Believe in your dreams, have dreams, and then do
everything you can to accomplishthem and fight for it and keep
learning every day of your life.
I teach kids to set goals insports psychology, and we set
goals just for, like, thequarter, which is 10 weeks, and
I'm 54 and I'm like, I need toset a new goal. We should never
quit setting. Goals, we shouldnever quit growing and learning.
(40:00):
That's what I'd say to myself.
You know, keep believing and tryto stay optimistic. When the
whole world can be pessimistic,and maybe people around you can
be pessimistic, you can stillchange the whole tone because of
your energy and your love andyour goodness, you give or your
motivation, you give to otherpeople.
Matt Kirchner (40:22):
Absolutely could not agree more. So be a lifelong
goal setter. Be a lifelonglearner. Whether you're 15 years
old or 54 keep putting thosegoals out in front of you. I'm
glad we set a goal of havingKathy on the podcast after we
met that day on the chair liftin Sun Valley Idaho. Just a
really, really inspiring messageabout how we can change the
world of education throughpositive thinking, positive
(40:42):
reinforcement, sportspsychology, thinking about our
problems the right way, gettingover the whole idea of math
anxiety. Anybody can be good atmath, they just have to have the
right mindset and the rightteacher. In a lot of cases, in
your case, Kathy, doing greatthings in the classroom. So
thank you so much for being withus. We really had a good time
having this conversation.
Enjoyed having you on thepodcast. Thank you. I appreciate
(41:02):
it so much, and we appreciateour audience being with us as
well here on The TechEd Podcast,Kathy mentioned the YouTube
channel that she's got for someof her content. She also
mentioned some books, as did Iwill link all that up in the
show notes for this week'sepisode. You will find those
show notes at TechEdpodcast.com/myers, that's TechEd
podcast.com/m. E, y, E, R, S,when you're done there on the
(41:28):
show notes, be sure to check usout on social media. We are all
over social we would love tohear from you, and until next
week on The TechEd Podcast. Myname is Matt Fricker. Thank you
for being with us. You
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