September 3, 2024 • 30 mins
Grief is more than just an emotion; it's a transformative journey. Join us on the Telewellness Hub podcast as we sit down with grief counselor Wendy Kessler to uncover the intricacies of the grieving process. Wendy, an experienced grief counselor and educator, shares her invaluable insights into actively engaging with grief to process emotions and adapt to loss. We discuss the difference between grief and grieving, and how the latter helps us reshape our identities and navigate our connections with loved ones. Wendy also clears up common misconceptions about the stages of grief, originally intended for terminally ill patients, and dives into the complexities of our individualized grieving journeys.
This episode doesn't shy away from tough topics. We tackle the profound impact of grief and the helplessness that often accompanies it, exploring how bargaining serves as a defense mechanism. Wendy explains the differences between anticipatory and post-loss grief, offering strategies to cope with significant dates and anniversaries. We also emphasize the importance of initiating conversations about grief in various settings, whether at home, in schools, or among professionals. Discover valuable grief counseling resources, both locally in San Diego and virtually, to support anyone navigating this challenging path. Wendy’s guidance offers a compassionate roadmap for finding personal ways to honor the memory of lost loved ones.
Learn more about Wendy now!
https://griefguideconsulting.com/
We are happy and honored to be part of your life changing health and wellness journey:
https://telewellnesshub.com/explore-wellness-experts/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome, friends, to the Telewellness Hub podcast, a
space where listening is notjust a simple passive act, it's
an act of self-care.
I'm Marta Hamilton, your host,and today we get to check in
with a repeat guest who holds adear space in my heart Through
our podcast interviews is how wemet and she and I recorded an
episode about grief during theholidays that you can revisit,
(00:21):
as well as some other episodes,but that specific episode we
recorded precisely weeks beforemy grandfather passed, the day
after Christmas.
So her words are so encouraging, truly on a personal level,
also on a professional level,and her insight is so valuable.
I'm so grateful that WendyKessler is here today.
Wendy is a private practicegrief counselor and educator.
(00:45):
She offers one-on-one griefcounseling, facilitates support
groups and offers professionaltraining about how we can
actively grieve, so that we canadapt to all the unwanted
changes of loss and create ourunique path forward through pain
.
When our grief path isoverwhelming, unfamiliar or
uncertain, it helps to have agrief guide.
(01:07):
So welcome Wendy, our griefguide for today.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Thank you, Marta.
I'm so happy to be here andcontinue our conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yes, I'm excited to talk to you a little bit about
just grief.
I know we've done some reallyfocused episodes on different
subjects within grief and if youare listening, I encourage you
to check those out after thisepisode.
Just to kind of dive in alittle deeper, today I want to
talk about some things I hadnoticed in my research really
(01:40):
starting to pop up in terms ofwhat people are searching and
curious about.
So why don't we start withfirst just reviewing what is
grief?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Grief is our natural response to loss.
It is the process that's wiredinto human beings, that helps us
to again to process emotions.
I mean everything you said inthe introduction.
Adapt to loss all the thingsthat need to happen when we are
living with the pain of loss.
(02:14):
Grief is it can be reallyhelpful to understand that
there's a difference betweengrief and grieving, and
sometimes we use those wordsinterchangeably, but actually
grief is a noun, it's the thing,it's all the things that we
feel and experience.
And then there's grieving,which is the process that helps
us move through that pain andkind of find our path forward.
(02:38):
And so grieving is actuallyvery active.
It's this active process thatwe engage in and we utilize our
coping and our resilience.
To be able to again to processthe emotions, adapt to the
changes and also to form a newsense of identity is such an
(02:59):
important part of grief work aswell.
Creating continuing bonds to aloved one who's passed or
relinquishing bonds if we needto that is also a really
essential part of moving forward, and so it is.
Grief is so misunderstoodbecause we live in a very pain
avoidant society and a lot oftimes we feel like if we avoid
(03:21):
grief, we can avoid the pain ofloss.
And actually, when we avoidgrief, we just add suffering to
the pain of loss.
It is really this paradox thatgrieving is the path forward.
It's not.
The problem when we avoid griefis when we get stuck in the
pain of loss and that addsadditional suffering.
(03:42):
So, learning how to grieve, Ireally do believe, is one of the
most essential life skills thatwe can learn, because we're all
going to experience lossthroughout our lifetime and
really the ability that humanshave and this process of
grieving has survived, you know,tens of thousands or hundreds
of thousands of years of socialemotional evolution, thousands
(04:05):
or hundreds of thousands ofyears of social emotional
evolution.
Grieving is still our mosteffective adaptive process to be
able to manage the painful losswe experience.
So understanding and knowinghow to grieve is really
essential for hopeful,purposeful, meaningful living.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
What you mentioned is so true.
I think I've used the two, thenoun and the verb,
interchangeably, and so it's sointeresting to think about it in
that way and when you reallythink about how adaptive and
helpful it is.
And I love what you mentionedabout the opportunity to
actively go through the processof grieving, to release
(04:45):
ourselves from the space ofbeing stuck in suffering and
pain.
And I'm curious because I'veheard about the stages of grief
and, briefly, I guess ingraduate school we're briefly
taught some models right, here'sstep one, here's step two,
here's the stage of it.
Can you share a little bitabout how the stages of grief or
(05:09):
grieving in the grievingprocess, how that plays a role
in the active process of healingand working through loss and
grief?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
in grief, absolutely.
I really enjoy discussing thistopic.
I am actually I've come fullcircle to being a big fan of
Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, who isthe person who published the
five-stage model of grief.
That is the one that is stillmost widely taught and the model
most people know.
And the model most people know,which is the stages of grief
(05:52):
are denial, bargaining, anger,depression, acceptance.
And this is how we understand,most people understand grief to
work that you go through thesefive stages in this orderly,
these orderly steps and then youreach this place of acceptance
and you move on with your life.
And it is, you know, elizabethKubler-Ross.
That model was published in abook called On Death and Dying
(06:13):
in 1969.
And her work, her research shewas a psychiatrist in a hospital
.
Her research was done onterminally ill patients coming
to terms with their ownmortality and she never meant
for that stage model for peoplewho are coming to terms with
(06:33):
their own mortality afterreceiving a terminal diagnosis.
She never intended for thatmodel to be copied and pasted
onto people living with griefpeople living with grief and she
was very outspoken about thattowards the end of her career,
(06:54):
that her stage model really gothijacked by a culture that likes
steps and orders andorderliness formula, and we want
resolution, we want there to bea conclusion, we want to feel
like we can conquer somethingand achieve success, and none of
those things apply to grief.
And so she published anotherbook in 19, like the mid 90s, I
think, 1995, 96, around there,but called On Grief and Grieving
(07:16):
.
And that book is about how herthe stage model for terminally
ill patients could inform andhelp the grief journey for
people living with grief.
And she was very clear and yetthis never, this doesn't get
talked about enough Like thisisn't included in like
mainstream education on griefthat Elizabeth Kubler-Ross was
(07:37):
very clear on grief and grievingthat her stage model is not
linear, it's not sequential,it's not.
Her stage model is not linear,it's not sequential, it's not.
You may not go through everysingle, you may not experience
every stage.
You may experience them indifferent orders.
You likely will revisit themthroughout your life when you're
living with grief and loss.
(07:57):
So the stages whether it's thefive stage model or the seven
stage model, because differentthings have been added to it
over the years they are all justexperiences that are normal
within grief that in for offerinformation to help normalize
(08:18):
the grief process.
And a lot of those experiencescan be seen as pathological when
they're not, like denial, forexample, serves a really helpful
purpose.
When we are in acute loss wehave to be able to shut down and
disconnect from the realityjust to get some stuff done.
There's phone calls that haveto be made, friends that need to
be done.
We still have to feed ourselvesand dress ourselves and just do
(08:41):
those activities of dailyliving.
So if you can't disconnect fromthe reality of a devastating
loss for a little bit duringyour day, you can't function.
So denial isn't necessarilynegative, or anger or depression
, depression, you know, sadnessforces us to slow down and we
need to slow down when we'regrieving.
(09:02):
Slow down and we need to slowdown when we're grieving.
Anger is, you know, we oftenare motivated to make hard
choices and difficult changes,like anger can be this very
refining force in our life.
So it's understanding that eachof these experiences that are a
normal part of grieving serve apurpose.
(09:22):
They're not necessarily bad,you know it is.
Every coping strategy can beadaptive or maladaptive.
It just kind of depends on ourmotivation for why we're
utilizing that strategy or whatwe're experiencing.
So it's just that the stagemodel can be really helpful for
(09:44):
grievers as long as it's taughtand understood as normal
experiences within the griefjourney that happen in a unique
order and in a unique way foreach individual griever, and
that you're never totally donegrieving and there's a lot of
quotes out there from ElizabethKubler-Ross about that that
(10:04):
grief never ends with a lovedone, because grief is the flip
side of love, and as long as youlove someone who's died, you're
going to excuse me, you'regoing to grieve that they're not
here.
So, but we, as we grieve, weare able to find, you know,
create renewed connections thatcan offer comfort and we can
bring them forward with us as wekeep moving forward in life, in
(10:37):
life.
And acceptance is not aboutbeing okay with a loss or being
okay with the absence of a lovedone.
Acceptance is merely acceptingthe reality that a loved one is
gone, or accepting the realityof a loss in our life, and when
we accept it, it opens us up toexploring and understanding and
activating our own agency ofwell.
Then, what do we need to do tobe able to adapt to that loss?
(10:57):
So acceptance is somisunderstood and can sound
really cruel and insensitive tosomeone who's grieving a loved
one If they think that meansthey have to be okay with it,
that they're gone and they don't.
We'll never be okay with it,and what you learn and gain and
the wisdom and compassion andgrowth that can come from, will
never be okay with it.
And what you learn and gain andthe wisdom and compassion and
growth that can come from lossnever makes it worth it and
(11:19):
that's all okay.
And yet keep to have thisamazing capacity to be able to
work through loss, adapt, growaround it and continue to live a
satisfying, meaningful,beautiful life.
That's what the miracle is.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Gosh, grief is the flip side of love.
I hadn't heard that describedthat way and I think it's so
helpful to hear that and alsoeverything you described, even
for loved ones who are walkingthrough a journey of a major
loss for someone else or who aregrieving.
Because I think, like youmentioned, I think we live in a
(11:57):
society we like action items, welike check marks and lists and
accomplishments and we're painavoidant.
So I think sometimes it can andI think I speak a little bit on
personal level, but what you'respeaking, I think sometimes, in
wanting to help others throughtheir as non-professionals right
, as loved ones and friends, butwant to offer some type of
(12:19):
support, we kind of try to, it'shelpful to understand that
their stage is normal, to beexpected, and offer some kind of
deeper understanding andknowledge for them and knowing
that it comes through the flipside of love, right.
Yes, because I just think abouthow I often I think sometimes I
(12:46):
feel like I've seen people wantto push people through stages
like let's get out of the denial, or for loved ones or even
themselves, you know, feel likeI need to be somewhere else and
what I'm hearing is everyone isunique and you can't fit
everyone into a certain mold oftimeline of reactions, of the
(13:12):
experience and the process.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Right, right.
And the best way to supportsomeone is not to try to move
them along or to help them.
It is just to be present withthem, to witness their
experience, to validate theiremotions and to just to be
willing to show up and bepresent and kind of in that same
space where they're with whatthey're experiencing in that
(13:37):
moment for their grief, withoutthe griever feeling judged for
having that emotion or feeling.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Absolutely.
And you know, something that Ihad seen in my research come up
and I'm curious about is whatdoes bargaining mean in relation
to grief, like what?
What is bargaining in thegrieving process?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yes, that is a great question and in Elizabeth
Kubler-Ross's original fivestage model again on death and
dying patients with terminalillness, bargaining is that
stage where you know, rightafter denial of, there has to be
something else we can do.
Let's find a different doctor,find a different treatment, find
a difference, like all the waysthat we just try to change the
(14:23):
narrative.
So the reality of mortalityisn't true In grief.
What bargaining looks like ingrief is all the ways that we
second guess ourselves, all theways that we kind of get stuck
in shame and blame and guilt andregret and we think about I
(14:45):
should have done this, thisdoctor should have done that,
this should have been said this,the ways that we really can
kind of torment ourselves ingrief of if I had done this or
not done this, or a doctor haddone this or not done this, the
outcome would have beendifferent, my loved one would
still be here.
And often this comes up in everygrief counseling session and
(15:08):
often what that is rooted in isit's rooted in many things.
I don't want to oversimplify.
One of the things that can berooted in is we would actually
rather feel guilty than feelhelpless and the reality is we
are helpless to save a dyingloved one and it's very hard to
(15:31):
confront that as part of ourgrief.
And so if we feel guilty, itmeans that there was something
that was controllable, thatdidn't happen correctly, that
caused this pain in my life,which can actually feel easier
for our heart, minds and soul toabsorb than the reality of the
(15:54):
helplessness that we have.
That grief can come crashinginto any of our lives.
Grief and loss at any point,and there often is.
We can't control it.
That's a hard reality to livewith.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, just hearing it is really impactful.
Yes, it's huge.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
So a lot of grief work is just and that's part of
the acceptance too right, likeaccepting the reality of the
helplessness and bargaining canbe the shield that we put up to
want to try to avoid having toconfront that reality.
Because if I was helpless, ittruly me and my family and our
(16:35):
doctors and our resources wereall helpless to stop this loss
from happening, then that meansany loss can happen and that is
such a hard reality to live withand again, we'd rather avoid
that and part of griefcounseling is that.
But there are tools andstrategies and coping and
resilience and changing ourmindset and there are ways that
(16:59):
we can grow around that loss sothat we actually can hold the
reality of helplessness andstill feel our agency to be able
to be active within our griefand our healing and our growing
experience around that.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, that's huge.
That is huge and I had alsolooked at that because it looks
like the bargaining can comejust out of curiosity.
The bargaining comes, I guess,during the grief.
Can it be part of the grief,like anticipatory grief?
Because I had seen someterminology about anticipatory
(17:38):
grief.
So I'm curious one doesbargaining play a role in that,
or how does anticipatory griefdiffer from post-loss grief?
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yes, well, anticipatory grief is grieving a
loss, we know.
We do kind of pre-grieve a lossthat we know is coming.
And then there's post-lossgrief.
And they are different andanticipatory grief is so
important to name because we doneed to be grieving the
secondary losses that arehappening when, when a loved one
(18:13):
has a terminal diagnosis and isin decline, we, the losses,
start before the moment of death.
There are changes, there are,you know, life winds down like a
clock and things stop, parts ofour relationship stop and end,
(18:33):
you know, before the person,before our loved one, dies.
And so we start grieving thoselosses and those changes all
along the way.
And when we don't name them,give ourselves permission to
feel them, process them, it addsto that sense of overwhelm and
almost feeling paralyzed by theintensity of emotion.
(18:55):
And almost feeling paralyzed bythe intensity of emotion when
we don't have the release ofrecognizing oh, I'm grieving the
loss that it's hard that myloved one could walk last week
and now they're having a hardtime getting around, or they
could, they could, they can'tconverse with me the way that
they used to be able to converseLike.
Those are real losses.
(19:15):
That, again, grief is how weadapt to any loss, not just
death loss, but all thenon-death losses too.
So there's a lot of non-death,secondary losses that we're
experiencing as we approach endof life and grieving those is
important.
Part of anticipatory grief isthat we're learning coping
strategies, we're buildingresilience, we're understanding
(19:36):
what we need to adapt to loss.
But and that's important and itmatters and it's helpful but
it's also so necessary tounderstand because sometimes
again, we can be very we want tobe efficient people and we want
to.
You know, there can be thismindset.
If I, if I participatewholeheartedly in anticipatory
grief, then post-loss grief willbe easier.
(19:57):
And that's actually not trueabout that.
No, it's not true and it'simportant to recognize that you.
It's necessary and beneficial togrieve anticipatory grief to
just have relief from theoverwhelm of the secondary,
non-death losses.
But the moment our loved onedies, it's a completely
different loss, like experienceof loss and grief to have our
(20:21):
loved one not physically in thisworld anymore and it is a new
experience of grief.
There's no short like.
Anticipatory grief doesn't giveus a shortcut through post-loss
grief and just to be preparedfor that, but anticipatory grief
, when we participate, canparticipate again, we can learn
coping strategies, we canunderstand our grieving style
(20:42):
better, we can know better whatwe need and what's helpful for
us in grief.
That certainly helps, but it'snot going to be a shortcut or
lessen the pain of post-lossgrief, we still do have people.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
What about anniversaries?
Because, as I'm hearing this,I'm wondering how I know
everyone is different, Everycase is different, and I
remember in some of our previousepisodes you've shared some
stories about how differentpeople might approach an
anniversary of a loss.
(21:17):
And I'm wondering, because I'mhearing the anticipatory grief.
There might be some of thatwith recollecting, perhaps, I
don't know, when it comes toanniversaries of a loss and it
never ends like we talked aboutthe process of grieving a loss.
What is your approach to this?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
And again this yeah, this also comes up with all of
my clients and in my personallife as well, because we do
post-loss.
We anticipate the anniversaryof a loved one's death or their
birthday, like those dates thatcome up on the calendar.
There's a lot of angst withthose dates coming up, and so
(22:02):
this again is where agency ishelpful in recognizing we don't
have to passively grieve, wedon't have to just white knuckle
, try to bear it and endure thepain and get through it.
That I encourage my clients.
Make a plan for that date.
Make a plan Like when you seethat date coming up on the
calendar.
Make a plan for how you want tospend that day.
(22:24):
Do you just want to dosomething fun?
Do you want to like spend timewith friends and family, or do
you want to actually likememorialize, remember, honor
your loved one in some way andor something else?
And there's no right or wrong.
Do you want to spend the daybinge watching your favorite TV
show?
There's no right or wrong inhow you choose to spend that day
(22:45):
.
Just make a plan in advance,because that's activating your
own agency, that you don't justhave to passively endure the day
and the morning of that day.
If you wake up and the planthat you've made feels wrong,
then ditch the plan.
That's still utilizing agencyand that still is more helpful
than just feeling like there'snothing I can do.
(23:06):
I have to passively endure this.
So creating a plan is soimportant and also what's
fascinating on this topic isthat as people move forward in
their grief and kind of moretime, there's more time between
loss in the grieving journey.
Sometimes people it's hard toimagine when you're in early
(23:28):
grief, but years past the death,the date of death, sometimes
you can't forget that that dateis approaching and this is part
of the bodies keep the score,like I have clients that will.
I that will be saying I am, youknow they're three years.
This just happened in a supportgroup two weeks ago.
Someone was saying that theyjust feel so off and we're
(23:49):
naming all the reasons that theywere feeling off and and after
listening for a while, Imentioned are you connecting
that this is the month of yourloved one's death anniversary?
It's been three years but youare and it was just this, like
(24:09):
she wasn't connecting thatanymore and realize again her
body.
Like we, we stay in rhythm withthe calendar, whether we
realize it or not, and that wasa reason why I contribute her to
, why she was feeling so off.
So it is important to beintentional with how we spend
(24:30):
those, how we plan for thosedays, even if we reject the plan
the day of.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
I love that, to be able to have that, and it just
sounds like you offer so muchsupport through your grief
counseling.
Just real brief like what isgrief counseling the process
look like?
Could you share a little bitabout that and how people can
connect with you?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Absolutely so.
You know, grief really is ajourney and you know, I my
social media, I use the termgrief guide because my all of my
clients are on their own uniquepath.
And again, grief is thisprocess that helps us adapt to
(25:14):
all the changes, process, theemotions, find our way forward.
But and it's also our naturalresponse to loss we have the
capacity to grieve within us.
It comes hardwired in humanbeings.
However, there are so manyreasons why grief gets
complicated.
There's so many differentreasons, internal and external
(25:36):
complicators of that naturalgrief trajectory that cause
grief to get stalled, derailed,where we just get stuck in our
experience of loss.
And so my work as a griefcounselor is to, first and
foremost, provide a safe spacefor my clients to come and share
their own grief story, offer acompassionate, nonjudgmental
(25:58):
space where I witness andvalidate their experience, where
my clients can talk to meunedited about their grief,
because most supporters in agriever's life, the griever has
to self-edit as they're sharingtheir grief so that they don't
make the supporter feel tooawkward or uncomfortable.
That's just a part of oursociety's the phobia that we
(26:21):
have with grief and and deathand dying and grief, that's true
.
So that unedited space to justtell your raw story, however you
need to, with whatever emotion,whatever language, um, and
again in a non-judgmental,compassionate space, and have it
witness, validated, that's thefirst thing I offer.
And then from there, that'slike the starting point of us
(26:41):
starting the journey togetherand from there we start walking
along and I am listening to myclients and understanding their
unique experience and need.
So I see myself as having likethis backpack of tools and
strategies and resources andsupport.
So, and I want to honor theuniqueness of every grief
(27:02):
journey, so, as they are namingwhat they are needing, where
their grief is complicated,whether it's internal or
external, you know I can pullthings out of my backpack to
offer that may be helpful injust navigating kind of the next
few steps to take, as they'rekind of creating their own grief
(27:22):
map of how to keep movingthrough their grief journey
towards, like, growth andmeaning and purpose and hope and
(27:43):
meaning and purpose and hopeand, you know, just a sense of
direction and equilibrium andstability in their life.
Again, because grief kind oftakes all those things away.
But again, what we need to kindof resume that is unique and
helping them to discover thatand utilize that so they just
feel less lost in their griefexperience, because we don't
grow up teaching people how togrieve, we don't grow up
(28:06):
learning how to actuallyunderstand grief as a life skill
that we can use, you know, toagain find our path forward
versus being lost.
That stalls the grailing grief.
So that's what I'm helping myclients with.
And it's also really importantto understand that grief largely
is an experience of anxiety,more so than depression, and we
(28:28):
often mistakenly think of griefas sadness when it is this.
It's a stress response of ourbrains trying to understand and
make sense of this loss in ourlife, and so a lot of grief
counseling is helping clients tomanage the anxiety that is
normal within grief and we don'tfix that.
(28:49):
But you can learn how to livewith and manage and kind of
lessen the distress of it sothat again you can experience a
sense of moving forward.
So a lot of grief work isactually working with anxiety
and our stress-based responsesthat are activated in grief.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
What an amazing gift to have you to guide us.
I hope these conversations openup um other conversations at
homes, at schools, amongprofessionals, just just so
important to look at this.
Like you mentioned, we we allexperienced this um through the
history of time and we all willexperience a loss, and ourselves
(29:34):
as well.
So I love that, all the supportthat you you offer, and what a
life-giving gift.
Uh, what's the best way forpeople to connect with you?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Um, well, you can go to my website, which is my grief
guidecom.
Um, or follow me on Instagram,which is mygriefguide at
Instagramcom, and would love toconnect with you to offer
resources to tell you more aboutgrief counseling.
I do offer grief counseling inperson at my office in San Diego
(30:07):
, but also virtually online aswell over Zoom, so would love to
talk more with anybody aboutthat that's interested.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Love that.
And, wendy, as always, thankyou so much for being a part of
our wellness journey today.
Thank, you.
Welcome, friends, to the Telewellness Hub podcast, a
space where listening is notjust a simple passive act, it's
an act of self-care.
I'm Marta Hamilton, your host,and today we get to check in
with a repeat guest who holds adear space in my heart Through
our podcast interviews is how wemet and she and I recorded an
episode about grief during theholidays that you can revisit,
(00:21):
as well as some other episodes,but that specific episode we
recorded precisely weeks beforemy grandfather passed, the day
after Christmas.
So her words are so encouraging, truly on a personal level,
also on a professional level,and her insight is so valuable.
I'm so grateful that WendyKessler is here today.
Wendy is a private practicegrief counselor and educator.
(00:45):
She offers one-on-one griefcounseling, facilitates support
groups and offers professionaltraining about how we can
actively grieve, so that we canadapt to all the unwanted
changes of loss and create ourunique path forward through pain
.
When our grief path isoverwhelming, unfamiliar or
uncertain, it helps to have agrief guide.
(01:07):
So welcome Wendy, our griefguide for today.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Thank you, Marta.
I'm so happy to be here andcontinue our conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yes, I'm excited to talk to you a little bit about
just grief.
I know we've done some reallyfocused episodes on different
subjects within grief and if youare listening, I encourage you
to check those out after thisepisode.
Just to kind of dive in alittle deeper, today I want to
talk about some things I hadnoticed in my research really
(01:40):
starting to pop up in terms ofwhat people are searching and
curious about.
So why don't we start withfirst just reviewing what is
grief?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Grief is our natural response to loss.
It is the process that's wiredinto human beings, that helps us
to again to process emotions.
I mean everything you said inthe introduction.
Adapt to loss all the thingsthat need to happen when we are
living with the pain of loss.
(02:14):
Grief is it can be reallyhelpful to understand that
there's a difference betweengrief and grieving, and
sometimes we use those wordsinterchangeably, but actually
grief is a noun, it's the thing,it's all the things that we
feel and experience.
And then there's grieving,which is the process that helps
us move through that pain andkind of find our path forward.
(02:38):
And so grieving is actuallyvery active.
It's this active process thatwe engage in and we utilize our
coping and our resilience.
To be able to again to processthe emotions, adapt to the
changes and also to form a newsense of identity is such an
(02:59):
important part of grief work aswell.
Creating continuing bonds to aloved one who's passed or
relinquishing bonds if we needto that is also a really
essential part of moving forward, and so it is.
Grief is so misunderstoodbecause we live in a very pain
avoidant society and a lot oftimes we feel like if we avoid
(03:21):
grief, we can avoid the pain ofloss.
And actually, when we avoidgrief, we just add suffering to
the pain of loss.
It is really this paradox thatgrieving is the path forward.
It's not.
The problem when we avoid griefis when we get stuck in the
pain of loss and that addsadditional suffering.
(03:42):
So, learning how to grieve, Ireally do believe, is one of the
most essential life skills thatwe can learn, because we're all
going to experience lossthroughout our lifetime and
really the ability that humanshave and this process of
grieving has survived, you know,tens of thousands or hundreds
of thousands of years of socialemotional evolution, thousands
(04:05):
or hundreds of thousands ofyears of social emotional
evolution.
Grieving is still our mosteffective adaptive process to be
able to manage the painful losswe experience.
So understanding and knowinghow to grieve is really
essential for hopeful,purposeful, meaningful living.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
What you mentioned is so true.
I think I've used the two, thenoun and the verb,
interchangeably, and so it's sointeresting to think about it in
that way and when you reallythink about how adaptive and
helpful it is.
And I love what you mentionedabout the opportunity to
actively go through the processof grieving, to release
(04:45):
ourselves from the space ofbeing stuck in suffering and
pain.
And I'm curious because I'veheard about the stages of grief
and, briefly, I guess ingraduate school we're briefly
taught some models right, here'sstep one, here's step two,
here's the stage of it.
Can you share a little bitabout how the stages of grief or
(05:09):
grieving in the grievingprocess, how that plays a role
in the active process of healingand working through loss and
grief?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
in grief, absolutely.
I really enjoy discussing thistopic.
I am actually I've come fullcircle to being a big fan of
Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, who isthe person who published the
five-stage model of grief.
That is the one that is stillmost widely taught and the model
most people know.
And the model most people know,which is the stages of grief
(05:52):
are denial, bargaining, anger,depression, acceptance.
And this is how we understand,most people understand grief to
work that you go through thesefive stages in this orderly,
these orderly steps and then youreach this place of acceptance
and you move on with your life.
And it is, you know, elizabethKubler-Ross.
That model was published in abook called On Death and Dying
(06:13):
in 1969.
And her work, her research shewas a psychiatrist in a hospital
.
Her research was done onterminally ill patients coming
to terms with their ownmortality and she never meant
for that stage model for peoplewho are coming to terms with
(06:33):
their own mortality afterreceiving a terminal diagnosis.
She never intended for thatmodel to be copied and pasted
onto people living with griefpeople living with grief and she
was very outspoken about thattowards the end of her career,
(06:54):
that her stage model really gothijacked by a culture that likes
steps and orders andorderliness formula, and we want
resolution, we want there to bea conclusion, we want to feel
like we can conquer somethingand achieve success, and none of
those things apply to grief.
And so she published anotherbook in 19, like the mid 90s, I
think, 1995, 96, around there,but called On Grief and Grieving
(07:16):
.
And that book is about how herthe stage model for terminally
ill patients could inform andhelp the grief journey for
people living with grief.
And she was very clear and yetthis never, this doesn't get
talked about enough Like thisisn't included in like
mainstream education on griefthat Elizabeth Kubler-Ross was
(07:37):
very clear on grief and grievingthat her stage model is not
linear, it's not sequential,it's not.
Her stage model is not linear,it's not sequential, it's not.
You may not go through everysingle, you may not experience
every stage.
You may experience them indifferent orders.
You likely will revisit themthroughout your life when you're
living with grief and loss.
(07:57):
So the stages whether it's thefive stage model or the seven
stage model, because differentthings have been added to it
over the years they are all justexperiences that are normal
within grief that in for offerinformation to help normalize
(08:18):
the grief process.
And a lot of those experiencescan be seen as pathological when
they're not, like denial, forexample, serves a really helpful
purpose.
When we are in acute loss wehave to be able to shut down and
disconnect from the realityjust to get some stuff done.
There's phone calls that haveto be made, friends that need to
be done.
We still have to feed ourselvesand dress ourselves and just do
(08:41):
those activities of dailyliving.
So if you can't disconnect fromthe reality of a devastating
loss for a little bit duringyour day, you can't function.
So denial isn't necessarilynegative, or anger or depression
, depression, you know, sadnessforces us to slow down and we
need to slow down when we'regrieving.
(09:02):
Slow down and we need to slowdown when we're grieving.
Anger is, you know, we oftenare motivated to make hard
choices and difficult changes,like anger can be this very
refining force in our life.
So it's understanding that eachof these experiences that are a
normal part of grieving serve apurpose.
(09:22):
They're not necessarily bad,you know it is.
Every coping strategy can beadaptive or maladaptive.
It just kind of depends on ourmotivation for why we're
utilizing that strategy or whatwe're experiencing.
So it's just that the stagemodel can be really helpful for
(09:44):
grievers as long as it's taughtand understood as normal
experiences within the griefjourney that happen in a unique
order and in a unique way foreach individual griever, and
that you're never totally donegrieving and there's a lot of
quotes out there from ElizabethKubler-Ross about that that
(10:04):
grief never ends with a lovedone, because grief is the flip
side of love, and as long as youlove someone who's died, you're
going to excuse me, you'regoing to grieve that they're not
here.
So, but we, as we grieve, weare able to find, you know,
create renewed connections thatcan offer comfort and we can
bring them forward with us as wekeep moving forward in life, in
(10:37):
life.
And acceptance is not aboutbeing okay with a loss or being
okay with the absence of a lovedone.
Acceptance is merely acceptingthe reality that a loved one is
gone, or accepting the realityof a loss in our life, and when
we accept it, it opens us up toexploring and understanding and
activating our own agency ofwell.
Then, what do we need to do tobe able to adapt to that loss?
(10:57):
So acceptance is somisunderstood and can sound
really cruel and insensitive tosomeone who's grieving a loved
one If they think that meansthey have to be okay with it,
that they're gone and they don't.
We'll never be okay with it,and what you learn and gain and
the wisdom and compassion andgrowth that can come from, will
never be okay with it.
And what you learn and gain andthe wisdom and compassion and
growth that can come from lossnever makes it worth it and
(11:19):
that's all okay.
And yet keep to have thisamazing capacity to be able to
work through loss, adapt, growaround it and continue to live a
satisfying, meaningful,beautiful life.
That's what the miracle is.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Gosh, grief is the flip side of love.
I hadn't heard that describedthat way and I think it's so
helpful to hear that and alsoeverything you described, even
for loved ones who are walkingthrough a journey of a major
loss for someone else or who aregrieving.
Because I think, like youmentioned, I think we live in a
(11:57):
society we like action items, welike check marks and lists and
accomplishments and we're painavoidant.
So I think sometimes it can andI think I speak a little bit on
personal level, but what you'respeaking, I think sometimes, in
wanting to help others throughtheir as non-professionals right
, as loved ones and friends, butwant to offer some type of
(12:19):
support, we kind of try to, it'shelpful to understand that
their stage is normal, to beexpected, and offer some kind of
deeper understanding andknowledge for them and knowing
that it comes through the flipside of love, right.
Yes, because I just think abouthow I often I think sometimes I
(12:46):
feel like I've seen people wantto push people through stages
like let's get out of the denial, or for loved ones or even
themselves, you know, feel likeI need to be somewhere else and
what I'm hearing is everyone isunique and you can't fit
everyone into a certain mold oftimeline of reactions, of the
(13:12):
experience and the process.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Right, right.
And the best way to supportsomeone is not to try to move
them along or to help them.
It is just to be present withthem, to witness their
experience, to validate theiremotions and to just to be
willing to show up and bepresent and kind of in that same
space where they're with whatthey're experiencing in that
(13:37):
moment for their grief, withoutthe griever feeling judged for
having that emotion or feeling.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Absolutely.
And you know, something that Ihad seen in my research come up
and I'm curious about is whatdoes bargaining mean in relation
to grief, like what?
What is bargaining in thegrieving process?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yes, that is a great question and in Elizabeth
Kubler-Ross's original fivestage model again on death and
dying patients with terminalillness, bargaining is that
stage where you know, rightafter denial of, there has to be
something else we can do.
Let's find a different doctor,find a different treatment, find
a difference, like all the waysthat we just try to change the
(14:23):
narrative.
So the reality of mortalityisn't true In grief.
What bargaining looks like ingrief is all the ways that we
second guess ourselves, all theways that we kind of get stuck
in shame and blame and guilt andregret and we think about I
(14:45):
should have done this, thisdoctor should have done that,
this should have been said this,the ways that we really can
kind of torment ourselves ingrief of if I had done this or
not done this, or a doctor haddone this or not done this, the
outcome would have beendifferent, my loved one would
still be here.
And often this comes up in everygrief counseling session and
(15:08):
often what that is rooted in isit's rooted in many things.
I don't want to oversimplify.
One of the things that can berooted in is we would actually
rather feel guilty than feelhelpless and the reality is we
are helpless to save a dyingloved one and it's very hard to
(15:31):
confront that as part of ourgrief.
And so if we feel guilty, itmeans that there was something
that was controllable, thatdidn't happen correctly, that
caused this pain in my life,which can actually feel easier
for our heart, minds and soul toabsorb than the reality of the
(15:54):
helplessness that we have.
That grief can come crashinginto any of our lives.
Grief and loss at any point,and there often is.
We can't control it.
That's a hard reality to livewith.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, just hearing it is really impactful.
Yes, it's huge.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
So a lot of grief work is just and that's part of
the acceptance too right, likeaccepting the reality of the
helplessness and bargaining canbe the shield that we put up to
want to try to avoid having toconfront that reality.
Because if I was helpless, ittruly me and my family and our
(16:35):
doctors and our resources wereall helpless to stop this loss
from happening, then that meansany loss can happen and that is
such a hard reality to live withand again, we'd rather avoid
that and part of griefcounseling is that.
But there are tools andstrategies and coping and
resilience and changing ourmindset and there are ways that
(16:59):
we can grow around that loss sothat we actually can hold the
reality of helplessness andstill feel our agency to be able
to be active within our griefand our healing and our growing
experience around that.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, that's huge.
That is huge and I had alsolooked at that because it looks
like the bargaining can comejust out of curiosity.
The bargaining comes, I guess,during the grief.
Can it be part of the grief,like anticipatory grief?
Because I had seen someterminology about anticipatory
(17:38):
grief.
So I'm curious one doesbargaining play a role in that,
or how does anticipatory griefdiffer from post-loss grief?
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yes, well, anticipatory grief is grieving a
loss, we know.
We do kind of pre-grieve a lossthat we know is coming.
And then there's post-lossgrief.
And they are different andanticipatory grief is so
important to name because we doneed to be grieving the
secondary losses that arehappening when, when a loved one
(18:13):
has a terminal diagnosis and isin decline, we, the losses,
start before the moment of death.
There are changes, there are,you know, life winds down like a
clock and things stop, parts ofour relationship stop and end,
(18:33):
you know, before the person,before our loved one, dies.
And so we start grieving thoselosses and those changes all
along the way.
And when we don't name them,give ourselves permission to
feel them, process them, it addsto that sense of overwhelm and
almost feeling paralyzed by theintensity of emotion.
(18:55):
And almost feeling paralyzed bythe intensity of emotion when
we don't have the release ofrecognizing oh, I'm grieving the
loss that it's hard that myloved one could walk last week
and now they're having a hardtime getting around, or they
could, they could, they can'tconverse with me the way that
they used to be able to converseLike.
Those are real losses.
(19:15):
That, again, grief is how weadapt to any loss, not just
death loss, but all thenon-death losses too.
So there's a lot of non-death,secondary losses that we're
experiencing as we approach endof life and grieving those is
important.
Part of anticipatory grief isthat we're learning coping
strategies, we're buildingresilience, we're understanding
(19:36):
what we need to adapt to loss.
But and that's important and itmatters and it's helpful but
it's also so necessary tounderstand because sometimes
again, we can be very we want tobe efficient people and we want
to.
You know, there can be thismindset.
If I, if I participatewholeheartedly in anticipatory
grief, then post-loss grief willbe easier.
(19:57):
And that's actually not trueabout that.
No, it's not true and it'simportant to recognize that you.
It's necessary and beneficial togrieve anticipatory grief to
just have relief from theoverwhelm of the secondary,
non-death losses.
But the moment our loved onedies, it's a completely
different loss, like experienceof loss and grief to have our
(20:21):
loved one not physically in thisworld anymore and it is a new
experience of grief.
There's no short like.
Anticipatory grief doesn't giveus a shortcut through post-loss
grief and just to be preparedfor that, but anticipatory grief
, when we participate, canparticipate again, we can learn
coping strategies, we canunderstand our grieving style
(20:42):
better, we can know better whatwe need and what's helpful for
us in grief.
That certainly helps, but it'snot going to be a shortcut or
lessen the pain of post-lossgrief, we still do have people.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
What about anniversaries?
Because, as I'm hearing this,I'm wondering how I know
everyone is different, Everycase is different, and I
remember in some of our previousepisodes you've shared some
stories about how differentpeople might approach an
anniversary of a loss.
(21:17):
And I'm wondering, because I'mhearing the anticipatory grief.
There might be some of thatwith recollecting, perhaps, I
don't know, when it comes toanniversaries of a loss and it
never ends like we talked aboutthe process of grieving a loss.
What is your approach to this?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
And again this yeah, this also comes up with all of
my clients and in my personallife as well, because we do
post-loss.
We anticipate the anniversaryof a loved one's death or their
birthday, like those dates thatcome up on the calendar.
There's a lot of angst withthose dates coming up, and so
(22:02):
this again is where agency ishelpful in recognizing we don't
have to passively grieve, wedon't have to just white knuckle
, try to bear it and endure thepain and get through it.
That I encourage my clients.
Make a plan for that date.
Make a plan Like when you seethat date coming up on the
calendar.
Make a plan for how you want tospend that day.
(22:24):
Do you just want to dosomething fun?
Do you want to like spend timewith friends and family, or do
you want to actually likememorialize, remember, honor
your loved one in some way andor something else?
And there's no right or wrong.
Do you want to spend the daybinge watching your favorite TV
show?
There's no right or wrong inhow you choose to spend that day
(22:45):
.
Just make a plan in advance,because that's activating your
own agency, that you don't justhave to passively endure the day
and the morning of that day.
If you wake up and the planthat you've made feels wrong,
then ditch the plan.
That's still utilizing agencyand that still is more helpful
than just feeling like there'snothing I can do.
(23:06):
I have to passively endure this.
So creating a plan is soimportant and also what's
fascinating on this topic isthat as people move forward in
their grief and kind of moretime, there's more time between
loss in the grieving journey.
Sometimes people it's hard toimagine when you're in early
(23:28):
grief, but years past the death,the date of death, sometimes
you can't forget that that dateis approaching and this is part
of the bodies keep the score,like I have clients that will.
I that will be saying I am, youknow they're three years.
This just happened in a supportgroup two weeks ago.
Someone was saying that theyjust feel so off and we're
(23:49):
naming all the reasons that theywere feeling off and and after
listening for a while, Imentioned are you connecting
that this is the month of yourloved one's death anniversary?
It's been three years but youare and it was just this, like
(24:09):
she wasn't connecting thatanymore and realize again her
body.
Like we, we stay in rhythm withthe calendar, whether we
realize it or not, and that wasa reason why I contribute her to
, why she was feeling so off.
So it is important to beintentional with how we spend
(24:30):
those, how we plan for thosedays, even if we reject the plan
the day of.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
I love that, to be able to have that, and it just
sounds like you offer so muchsupport through your grief
counseling.
Just real brief like what isgrief counseling the process
look like?
Could you share a little bitabout that and how people can
connect with you?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Absolutely so.
You know, grief really is ajourney and you know, I my
social media, I use the termgrief guide because my all of my
clients are on their own uniquepath.
And again, grief is thisprocess that helps us adapt to
(25:14):
all the changes, process, theemotions, find our way forward.
But and it's also our naturalresponse to loss we have the
capacity to grieve within us.
It comes hardwired in humanbeings.
However, there are so manyreasons why grief gets
complicated.
There's so many differentreasons, internal and external
(25:36):
complicators of that naturalgrief trajectory that cause
grief to get stalled, derailed,where we just get stuck in our
experience of loss.
And so my work as a griefcounselor is to, first and
foremost, provide a safe spacefor my clients to come and share
their own grief story, offer acompassionate, nonjudgmental
(25:58):
space where I witness andvalidate their experience, where
my clients can talk to meunedited about their grief,
because most supporters in agriever's life, the griever has
to self-edit as they're sharingtheir grief so that they don't
make the supporter feel tooawkward or uncomfortable.
That's just a part of oursociety's the phobia that we
(26:21):
have with grief and and deathand dying and grief, that's true
.
So that unedited space to justtell your raw story, however you
need to, with whatever emotion,whatever language, um, and
again in a non-judgmental,compassionate space, and have it
witness, validated, that's thefirst thing I offer.
And then from there, that'slike the starting point of us
(26:41):
starting the journey togetherand from there we start walking
along and I am listening to myclients and understanding their
unique experience and need.
So I see myself as having likethis backpack of tools and
strategies and resources andsupport.
So, and I want to honor theuniqueness of every grief
(27:02):
journey, so, as they are namingwhat they are needing, where
their grief is complicated,whether it's internal or
external, you know I can pullthings out of my backpack to
offer that may be helpful injust navigating kind of the next
few steps to take, as they'rekind of creating their own grief
(27:22):
map of how to keep movingthrough their grief journey
towards, like, growth andmeaning and purpose and hope and
(27:43):
meaning and purpose and hopeand, you know, just a sense of
direction and equilibrium andstability in their life.
Again, because grief kind oftakes all those things away.
But again, what we need to kindof resume that is unique and
helping them to discover thatand utilize that so they just
feel less lost in their griefexperience, because we don't
grow up teaching people how togrieve, we don't grow up
(28:06):
learning how to actuallyunderstand grief as a life skill
that we can use, you know, toagain find our path forward
versus being lost.
That stalls the grailing grief.
So that's what I'm helping myclients with.
And it's also really importantto understand that grief largely
is an experience of anxiety,more so than depression, and we
(28:28):
often mistakenly think of griefas sadness when it is this.
It's a stress response of ourbrains trying to understand and
make sense of this loss in ourlife, and so a lot of grief
counseling is helping clients tomanage the anxiety that is
normal within grief and we don'tfix that.
(28:49):
But you can learn how to livewith and manage and kind of
lessen the distress of it sothat again you can experience a
sense of moving forward.
So a lot of grief work isactually working with anxiety
and our stress-based responsesthat are activated in grief.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
What an amazing gift to have you to guide us.
I hope these conversations openup um other conversations at
homes, at schools, amongprofessionals, just just so
important to look at this.
Like you mentioned, we we allexperienced this um through the
history of time and we all willexperience a loss, and ourselves
(29:34):
as well.
So I love that, all the supportthat you you offer, and what a
life-giving gift.
Uh, what's the best way forpeople to connect with you?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Um, well, you can go to my website, which is my grief
guidecom.
Um, or follow me on Instagram,which is mygriefguide at
Instagramcom, and would love toconnect with you to offer
resources to tell you more aboutgrief counseling.
I do offer grief counseling inperson at my office in San Diego
(30:07):
, but also virtually online aswell over Zoom, so would love to
talk more with anybody aboutthat that's interested.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Love that.
And, wendy, as always, thankyou so much for being a part of
our wellness journey today.
Thank, you.
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