September 10, 2025 • 49 mins
Nearly 100 years after Salem, a German immigrant widow in Vermont faced trial by water ordeal for witchcraft. In 1785, Margaret Krieger was dropped through ice into the freezing Hoosick River—and survived.
Guests:
Joyce Held, Pownal Vermont Historical Society - researcher who uncovered Margaret's full story
Jamie Franklin, Bennington Museum Curator - connected the trial to post-Revolutionary War political tensions
Key Points:
Margaret Schumacher Krieger (1725-1790) married Johann Krieger in 1741, moved to frontier Vermont
After Johann's death in 1785, neighbors accused her of witchcraft to seize the family's mill and land
Recent research suggests the family were Loyalists, adding political motivation to the accusations
Margaret was acquitted after surviving the water test and moved back to Massachusetts
Modern Legacy:
Historical marker installed 2023 at Strobridge Recreation Park, North Pownal, VT
Annual Witches Walk commemorating "extraordinary women" - next event September 13, 2025
Connect:
Facebook: Pownal Historical Society
Website: www.pownal.org
This case reveals how witchcraft accusations often masked land disputes, cultural tensions, and political conflicts in post-Revolutionary America.
Links
Americans 1943: Realists and Magic-Realists
AP Article: Group seeks to clear names of all accused, convicted or executed for witchcraft in MA
Sign the Petition: MA Witch Hunt Justice Project
Pownal Historical Society on Facebook
Bennington Museum Special Exhibits
Watch: New England Legends: Ghosts and Witches Season 2024 Episode 2
The Thing About Salem Patreon
The Thing About Witch Hunts YouTube
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Jack (00:00):
Welcome to The Thing About Witch Hunts podcast.
(00:02):
I'm Sarah Jack. Josh Hutchinson: And I'm Josh
Hutchinson. When most people think about
witch trials in America, they think of Salem in 1692, but
witch hunts didn't end there. Sarah Jack: Today, we're
traveling back to Vermont to revisit an extraordinary woman,
whose story we were first introduced to two years ago by
(00:22):
Jamie Franklin, curator at the Bennington Museum, who rejoins
us today with an update. Josh Hutchinson: Also joining us
today is Joyce Held of the Pownal Historical Society who
has spent years researching the woman known only as Widow
Krieger, uncovering her real name and life story.
Joyce and Jamie are bringing more light to the story
(00:45):
by connecting this woman's Witchtrial to the broader political
tensions of post-Revolutionary War America.
Josh Hutchinson (00:54):
This is the story of Margaret Krieger's
trial by water in midwinter, nowupdated with a surprise twist.
Sarah Jack (01:01):
We will now open with the delightful conversation
we had with Joyce Held, and thenyou'll hear Jamie Franklin
reveal a shocking surprise that we didn't know was coming until
the recording. Welcome to The Thing About Witch
Hunts podcast. We are so delighted to get to
talk to you about a Vermont accused witch today.
(01:22):
Please introduce yourself and tell us why it's so important
for you to preserve historical stories.
Joyce Held (01:29):
My name is Joyce Held.
I'm on the board of the Pownal, Vermont Historical Society.
And of course my passion is to capture, preserve, and share the
history of not only our town, but history in itself for future
generations. Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so
much. How did you first get interested
(01:49):
in this Vermont witch trial? Joyce Held: Years ago.
I really tried to remember when it became the little nit in my
brain that kept bugging me, but I read somewhere along the line,
a little, a clip from, it was T.E.
Brownell that it was in the, I think it was the 1868 or
(02:12):
something like that Vermont Gazetteer about the witch trial
and the Widow Krieger, and it was a very short, little article
that Mr. Brownell wrote and it in it kind of intrigued me, but
that's all it was, was widow Krieger.
It didn't know her name, didn't know anything about her, just
Widow Krieger. And so off and on over many,
(02:34):
many years, she would surface back, and I'd do a little more
research and whatever. And then all of a sudden, it
wasn't just let's find out abouther.
It was more like, I know her, I wanna know more about her.
That's when I started to really get involved.
Sarah Jack (02:51):
So she is a real person, and her story was just
really calling out to you. Would you like to tell us about
her and what you found? Joyce Held: What intrigued me
was that it was stated that Widow Krieger was accused of
being a witch after her husband had died in 1785.
(03:12):
Of course, I didn't know this, this is the things I found
afterwards. It didn't give a date, but after
her husband had died, she had been accused of being a witch.
Her accusers, called her an extraordinary woman.
And she was brought before the safety committee.
And the safety committee decidedthat there were two tests that
they could put her to to find out if she truly was a witch.
(03:35):
The first one they could use would be where they would have
her climb a tree, and she would climb a tree, and they would cut
it down. If she survived, she was a
witch, because the devil saved her.
If she didn't survive, she wasn't a witch, but she'd be
dead. So, that didn't sound too
(03:56):
appealing, I don't think, to anybody.
The second one was the water test, and, that's the one that
they decided that they would do because they're right there
along the Hoosick River here in Pownal.
So, they cut a hole in the ice, and they dropped the widow in.
And the idea was if she sank, she wasn't a witch.
(04:19):
If she floated, then that meant the powers of infernal were
holding her up. Well, fortunately for Widow
Krieger, she sank like a rock and they were able to pull her
out and save her. So, she was acquitted.
So that's what started the wholeadventure, my adventure of I
need to know more. Yeah.
(04:43):
And these pins that we're wearing is an illustration
of that second test. Joyce Held: Yes, indeed.
Yes. When she was dropped into the
river and pulled back up. Sarah Jack: And this is your
art? Joyce Held: No, no.
It's a friend's artwork. Sarah Jack: A friend's artwork.
Joyce Held (04:58):
Yeah. But it's, to me, it's, it shows
what really happened. Yeah.
So, so then I, so then I was fascinated with that.
So first question was, who was she?
The only thing I could resonate towards was the fact that we
have a outcrop of rocks in NorthPownal, and we all call 'em
(05:20):
Krieger Rocks and it's like anything else, you're just
raised with it or whatever, and so it's just Krieger Rocks and
you don't question why is it Krieger Rocks, you know?
And so then I thought, oh, so there we are, and it's North
Pownal. And so started going back
through there and was able to, find Johann Juri Krieger, who
(05:41):
came up along the Hudson and theDutch worked along through the
Hudson, and they actually kind got mixed up once or twice.
But anyway, they wound up along the Hoosick River, 'cause the
Hoosick River eventually does gointo the Hudson.
And he and a group of others hadcome to the frontier land of
what would become Pownal, because there was nothing here,
(06:02):
absolutely nothing here. And but was fertile land.
The Native Americans had been here and they would hunt and
fish and everything here. So it was fertile land.
So they had cleared land. Johann was an experienced mill
builder. And so he built a mill along the
river and built a house. And so I thought, oh, so who was
(06:23):
this man? Huh?
So his name is Krieger. Just doing research, digging
here, digging there, I came across a marriage certificate
from the Albany Reformed Church for 1741 that Johann married
Marguerite Schumacher from Williamstown, Massachusetts.
(06:43):
So now I had Widow Krieger's first name, Marguerite,
Marguerite Schumacher. And so then that's when she had
a name, and I started learning about her.
She was 16 when they married. He was 14 years her senior.
And she moved to the frontier land of Pownal, not Pownal, but
(07:04):
of where there was the east sideof the Rensselaerwick Manor is
what it was called. And then, of course, it got
involved with the New Hampshire grants and all that, but anyway,
it eventually became Pownal beginning, Pownal eventually
became part of the state of Vermont.
But, this was all before that, so that's how I found her name.
And then they had three children.
(07:26):
They had three sons. And it was fascinating to read
the fact that the three sons, obviously they, they learned
from their father building millsand the town of Williamstown, it
had actually as, when these young men became like 20 years
old or so, they invited them to Williamstown to build mills for
(07:48):
them, for the town of Williamstown.
And they were given land in Williamstown, and they proceeded
to build some mills down there that, which was called Krieger
Mills down in the, in the town of Williamstown, Mass.
So it was kind of unique becauseMarguerite was from
Williamstown. Johann had the house in and mill
(08:10):
in, I'm gonna say Vermont, but it wasn't Vermont, but in
Pownal. And it was only like an eight
mile difference. We're very close to the border.
So they actually had citizenship, I think, dual
citizenship, because it was veryeasy to own property in
Williamstown, Mass and own property over the border, what
(08:31):
would become Vermont. So that's how they got to be
dual residents, I guess I would call them.
I guess the first thing that happened was their middle son,
Peter, died at a very early age,and I'm still working on what he
died from. I have no clue.
(08:52):
But it was 27 years old. He never was married, and I
don't think it was a sickness, because he was hardy and
building mills. I tend to think maybe it was an
accident at the mill. But I can't say until I find
out. So, that's one of those question
marks on the side, when you're writing something down, question
(09:12):
mark, what do you do? The youngest son, William, he
went off to the Battle of Bennington and was killed.
So in a short period of time, they lost the two sons and they,
when he had, John George, by that time they were using the
English names, no, Johann Juri, but John George, but their son,
John George. So that's what was left before
(09:34):
Johan, Johann Senior there passed away.
Sarah Jack (09:37):
Is there anything you wanna tell us about the
battle or that time period? Joyce Held: I'm looking at
Marguerite, and I admire her. I truly, truly admire her.
At the age of 16, she left her family home, came to a place
where, you know, there were Native Americans here.
We have a road called Indian Massacre Road.
There were Indian upheaval type things going on, raids and
(10:00):
burnings and all that thing. And here she is before she's 21
years old, or just about 21 years old, and she's a wife,
she's a mother of three boys. They're running a mill.
They're farming, because they raise the grain to mill.
I just admire her, and I keep saying to people, yeah, they
were right, she was extraordinary woman.
(10:20):
I mean, she was strong. She was one strong,
extraordinary woman, and she wasresilient, and I just totally
admire her. And she was all about family.
And I can tell you that, becausewhen William died, of course she
was mourning his death, her, I call him her sweet William.
When William died, she went backto Williamstown, because he had
(10:43):
babies. His children were just tiny, and
so she went and moved in with Margaret, what her
daughter-in-law's name was, and moved in with Margaret to help
with the children. So she was back and forth
helping her husband at the mill in Williamstown, supporting the
family. And then, of course, Johann,
obviously with the 14 years difference, he got elderly
(11:03):
before she did, and then she hada sick husband.
And so she just took care of everybody.
She was just amazing, and I really, really took her on as a
friend and I just wanted to tellher story.
I just thought, it's time for you to shine, Marguerite.
It's time for you, and shame on the people who disrupt her life
(11:24):
by saying that she was a witch. And it was pure greed.
It was pure greed. I mean, the husband was gone.
back when, in 1760 when the New Hampshire grants were happening,
the English came, and they looked upon the Dutch as
squatters. They weren't landowners.
They were squatters. Well, I begged to differ.
(11:44):
They came, and they took that land, and they made it useful.
And I just recently found a petition that Johann sent to
Governor Wentworth, stating the fact that he and his neighbors
had for over 20 years been working this land, raising the
wheat or whatever they were, thecorn, whatever their real,
(12:06):
grinding. and he asked if they would give them their land.
And lo and behold, the proprietors did recognize the
fact that Johann improved the land, and they did allow him to
keep his land. So then when he dies in 1785,
what are they gonna do? Now, this man owned that mill,
(12:30):
he owned that land, and there's just this one lady that is the
owner. and the English of course, we're very quite
familiar with the witch accusations.
And because you figure that Marguerite spoke a different
(12:51):
language. Her customs, her mannerisms or
whatever you wanna call 'em, were different than the English.
And so, because she was different, it was different.
And she did land and they wantedit, boy, they wanted it.
And it doesn't sound like they waited long.
Joyce Held (13:07):
Oh, no, they were. They were Sarah Jack
she was in trouble. Joyce Held: Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah.
They wanted it done. And after she was acquitted, I
think she was done with this whole area and she went back to
Williamstown, and that's where she lived out her rest of her
years. She died in 1790, and she lived
(13:30):
with William's children, her grandchildren, and she had
sheep. And I read her will and she had
a granddaughter, Margaret, all these Margarets.
And she divided the sheep amongst the three children of
William, and she left Margaret her aprons.
It is just beautiful, something that grandmother would do.
(13:50):
Here's my favorite apron, or this is my favorite bedspread or
quilt or whatever it may be. The Bibles, Dutch Bibles. just
all the different things that wedo today.
We give to our grandchildren or our great-grandchildren to carry
on that tradition. Yeah, family meant a lot to her.
Just a great, great woman. I could just go on and on and on
(14:11):
and, but anyway, she was wonderful woman.
Josh Hutchinson (14:13):
Yeah, on family, is much known about what
became of her grandchildren? Has anybody come forward to you
and said, Hey, we're descendants?
Joyce Held (14:22):
Yes, she, the, like I said, after she had the, after
the trial and everything, a Krieger name doesn't not, does
not show up in Vermont history ever again as anyone living here
by that name. All we have left is Krieger
Rocks, which is wonderful. We got that.
And so now we've got at least something, a monument to that
(14:43):
name. The families knew each other.
What I was talking about, that petition that Johann sent, one
of the names he had on that petition was a family name that
the offsprings of the Krieger family in Williamstown married
into. Sarah Jack: Oh, Joyce Held:
Yeah, so there's names and there's people and Yeah.
So I have talked to people that says, oh, I never knew this.
(15:06):
I just knew that, I didn't know about this Vermont part of the
history. So yeah, there's some people out
there that are part of the history, yes.
And it's great to talk with them.
One lady in particular wants to stay anonymous, but, she's done
a lot of research, and her and Ihave been chatting back and
forth and it's just really nice to put the story together.
(15:28):
It's just like working with somebody's family tree, and you
go, oh, you call up the cousin and say, hey, I found out
whatever. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
In that sense, it's still a living history.
is. It is Josh Hutchinson
legacy lives on. Joyce Held: And I think that
she, what she went through and all of that.
I think, you look at today and you realize that some things
have changed, some things have not changed.
(15:49):
History does repeat itself. And then on the other hand, we
should learn from history. We should learn from history.
Sarah Jack (15:57):
This is so wonderful.
Can you tell us about how you and your community are
commemorating her? Joyce Held: I was doing all this
work and what have you and, in 2023, I was working with Jamie
Franklin from the Bennington Museum on another project.
And so we were working on this art project, and during the
(16:18):
course of back and forth or something, I really, how we got
onto it, I'm not sure, but, I mentioned Widow Krieger and
Jamie was wanting to know more, and so I told him this story.
And so he was saying, oh, they're putting in a marker up
in Manchester for the, I don't know if you've heard about the
Manchester Vampire, Manchester, Vermont Vampire.
(16:38):
They had a marker they put up, and it's a Pomeroy foundation
and Vermont Folklore. And I looked at him and I said,
Marguerite needs a marker. Widow Krieger needs a marker.
So then that's when we both decided this is exactly what we
wanna do. And we worked together, and we
(16:58):
dedicated it September of 2023, along at the Strobridge Park in
North Pownal on Dean Road, alongthe Hoosick River, right below
Krieger Rocks, and it's just fitting.
It's just beautiful. And last year we, we had our
second annual Witches Walk, and now we're planning our third
annual Witches Walk this September 13th.
(17:19):
So, and what we do is we, it's in remembrance of Marguerite,
but it's also celebrating women.It's celebrating women, because
my theory is all women are extraordinary in their own way.
We're unique. Each one of us is special.
And I just wanna get that message across that we're unique
(17:41):
in our own and our strength, andno offense to the gentlemen.
I mean, we don't work out with the irons or whatever, but our
strength and our resilience, we hold the families together and
keep the fires burning when the husbands or the fathers are off
to war or whatever. Sarah Jack: And the walk, it's
(18:02):
people from the community comingtogether.
And what's the path? Does it, you go from like town
to the river or how does that work?
Joyce Held (18:12):
It's amazing where the people come from.
They come from all states. We have people from Salem, they
come from all over. and that's wonderful.
And we have all ages, babies andstrollers and we have all
genders. And, it's just a real community
feeling and, smiles, all smiles galore and some tears and what
(18:35):
we do is there's a lovely bridgethat goes across from the,
depending what side you're on, but it goes east and west over
the Hoosick River. And so we go onto the west side.
And we all gather there, and we walk across the bridge, playing
music, dancing, whatever we wanna do.
It's all about celebrating and remembering.
(18:57):
And then we go to the park, and we have refreshments and we have
talks. We tell the stories.
It's a community thing. It really is.
And we had wonderful dancers there, a group of ladies dancers
there last year, and they're coming back this year, which
really gets everybody involved, and everybody wants to dance.
And yes, it's just, everybody feels like they're being seen,
(19:19):
yeah. So we're like you're here, I see
you and we love you. It was almost like a sisterhood.
Sarah Jack (19:26):
Yeah. Yeah.
She took the brunt of something for other women, and you're able
to celebrate. Joyce Held: Yes.
And you know what? During the whole thing,
researching her and I've done genealogy for so many years and
we've been all over the world doing things with different
family lines, and I'll share something, the fact that I do
(19:46):
talk to the people that I'm researching and I, I don't wanna
be spiritual or whatever, but I do talk to them and I'll ask
them things. And sometimes I'll go to a
cemetery and I can't find them, and I'll say, where are you?
And then I'll say, okay, you don't wanna be found today.
I understand. And then I maybe go back a
couple of days later, like, where are you?
And then I go right there. Okay.
So, and then I laugh and say, are you playing tricks on me?
(20:09):
You know, the whole thing. But I was thinking, with
Marguerite, how she must have felt when all this was
happening. She had three sons.
Two were gone. She was trying to be the standup
strong person for her boys' families.
She had to be, their father died.
So she had to be the standup mother.
Don't break down, be strong for the kids, and then this
(20:32):
happened. It's just so insulting, and I
kept thinking, what would I do if I was there?
What would I have done? And then the thought was like,
would I be strong enough to say no, she's not a witch and put
myself out there, maybe there would be two dunkings that day,
but when I found her stone, and I was able to, because it was a
(20:53):
long time finding where she was buried, but when I found her
stone and I walked over to it, Ihugged it, and I cried, and I
told her I was so, so sorry for what she went through, and it
was very, very emotional. But I could feel that she felt
it, that somebody understood. Sarah Jack: That's really
beautiful. She's was extraordinary, and
(21:14):
it's special that her burial is known and she can be remembered
there by family and community, but then you have the marker and
the rocks. It's really, together that's
just really wonderful, because it's so rare to have so much,
even though it's not a lot for what she went through.
(21:37):
I'm really glad those pieces of the story kept speaking to you.
Joyce Held (21:43):
No, it definitely I enjoyed, and I'm sure that I'll
be meeting her up in heaven before I get the whole story
together, because every day whenI pick up something, I go, oh,
yeah. Oh, I still haven't found out
where Peter, you know how he died.
And I go off and I'm looking where Peter died, and that's how
I found the petition. Because you go down this street,
and you think you're going in the right path, but then you
(22:05):
take a turn, and the next thing you know, you're off with
another member of the family. Have you ever done research, and
I'm sure you have it, it gets tobe a huge, gigantic puzzle and
and you think, you're looking for this piece, but you realize
that you've gotta find this piece before this piece will fit
in there, you know? Sarah Jack: Yeah.
I'm just so excited that you found that petition, those types
(22:26):
of documents really fill storiesin.
You were able to, see his, efforts when he was fighting for
his property, he had his wife inmind.
He knew he was older than her and his descendants.
And then you were able to see how families married and came
(22:46):
together, names, that were so that.
I just loved these petitions. I'm so glad you found it.
Josh Hutchinson (22:50):
Thank you so much for joining us today,
Joyce. This has been a real pleasure.
It's such a compelling, powerfulstory, reminds me in some ways
of other witch trials, but it's so unique in many of the details
and the timing of it, and I'm just grateful that you've done
this research into it. So thank you for joining us
(23:14):
today. When will the Witches Walk be
held this year? Joyce Held: It will be held
Saturday, September 13th at the,Strobridge, recreation park and
it's on Dean Road in North Pownal, Vermont.
And we start about noon, and it goes on all afternoon, so.
All is welcome and come out and enjoy.
(23:37):
So, and thank you for showing such a great response and
enthusiasm to the story, becausegetting the story out and having
people like you and Sarah working on getting the word out
of what happens and just reminding us all where we come
from. Sarah Jack: And I wanna point
out real quick that your historical society's social
(23:58):
media is so wonderful. You are active on Facebook, and
I really look forward to those posts, so listeners can find you
guys on Facebook. Joyce Held: Yeah, Pownal
Historical Society, and we are working on our website, which
would be www.pownal.org. So it's real quick and easy and
(24:19):
we are revamping that whole website.
It'll have more stuff and be able to be updated a lot easier.
It's a lot of work, but, just getting the word out and that,
for people who are interested. But we're here, and we're
passing the word along and we'repassing along the good vibes and
the happiness and cheer to everyone.
Sarah Jack (24:40):
Welcome back to the podcast, Jamie Franklin.
Last time we chatted, this podcast was still audio only,
and we called it Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
A lot has changed, we are still very much the same, and we're so
happy to have this opportunity to add you to our fresh
(25:00):
discussion of the widow MargaretKrieger, the accused witch of
Vermont. Please introduceourself and tell
us about your work at the Bennington Museum.
Jamie Franklin (25:10):
It's my pleasure.
I'm glad to be back. Again, my name is Jamie Franklin
and I guess my official title atthe Bennington Museum is
Director of Collections and Exhibitions.
The simple title is Curator. So basically I'm the curator at
the museum. I'm in charge of developing our
collections, researching our collections, and then presenting
them to the public, whether thatbe in exhibitions, publications,
(25:32):
or podcasts like this. So, I get to play with all the
old stuff, basically is what I do at the museum.
Josh Hutchinson (25:40):
Yeah. And before we begin our
discussion of Widow Krieger, or I should I should say, before we
resume our discussion of Widow Krieger, we'd love to know about
what's happening at the museum right now.
Can you tell us about the the current exhibit, Green Mountain
Magic (25:56):
Uncanny Realism in Vermont?
Jamie Franklin (25:59):
Yeah, it's a largely a visual art exhibition.
And it's a project that I've kind of had in the back of my
head for about 15 years. It has its origins in an
exhibition that was at the Museum of Modern Art back in
1943. And when I started working here
at the museum, actually I'm celebrating my 20th anniversary
here, coming up in a couple of weeks, so I've been here a
(26:21):
while. So, one of the collections that
we are most known for is having the largest public collection of
the work of Anna Mary Robertson Moses or Grandma Moses, and so
she was probably one of the bestknown self-taught artists in
America, if not in the world, inthe mid 20th century.
And, a lot of my research as a curator, particularly of Grandma
(26:44):
Moses' work, has been into the kind of intersection of. the
work of self-taught artists and modernism in America. and as I
was, doing my early research on Grandma Moses, I came across the
fact that a number of exhibitions at the Museum of
Modern Art in the late thirties and early forties featured not
only Moses but other self-taughtartists, including Patsy Santo,
(27:04):
who was an artist who lived herein Bennington.
Santo, along with about five other artists, were in an
exhibition at MoMA in 1943 called, Realism and Magic
Realism. And it kind of clicked my
interest in why were all of these artists from Vermont in
this exhibition. And so the exhibition features
those six artists, Patsy Santo, Ivan Albright, John Atherton,
(27:26):
Paul Cadmus and Jared French andVanessa Helder, along with
another group, another about sixor seven artists who were
working in the realm of magic realism, which, to give a real
quick, I won't say definition, 'cause I don't know that there
is a definition, but it's kind of a parallel with surrealism,
but instead of dwelling on like dream worlds and the
(27:49):
unconscious, it focuses on real world imagery, often painted
very, very crisply and so intensely that it almost feels
like you're in a dream. But it's not of a dream, it's of
the real world. That's kind of my quick and
dirty description of it. And so, the exhibition really
explores these artists who are working in Vermont in the mid
20th century, but I also folded in the work of Shirley Jackson,
(28:12):
which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit more here in the
course of the podcast. Sarah Jack: That sounds really
wonderful. The website, does give a peek
into the exhibition, but Jamie Franklin: Yeah.
Sarah Jack (28:25):
you know, hearing you talk about it, too, I'm like
ready to jump on a plane and fly, fly, Jamie Franklin: Well.
across the country Jamie Franklin
one to see come together. Like I said, you know, sometimes
these exhibitions live in our heads as curators for a long
time and to be able to see 'em. And it's some of my favorite
work, Really to be honest. One of my favorite paintings of
all time is in the exhibition. Sarah Jack: That's so wonderful.
(28:48):
Can you remind us about Shirley Jackson and her contribution to
the legacy of the Salem Witch Trials and literature and about
her collection at your museum? Jamie Franklin: Yeah.
So, I have known Shirley's children, particularly, Laurence
Hyman, her oldest son, for a number of years, and in 2021, so
(29:10):
going on four years ago, four plus years ago, he approached me
about the possibility of donating a, collection of
materials, archival materials, manuscripts, first edition,
copies of her books, her dining room table, which he used to
write some for final novels on ahaunted music box.
A bunch of materials that kind of help flush out Jackson's
(29:33):
career as a writer, but also herlife in North Bennington, where
she lived and worked for most of, her career.
And so that collection ended up coming to us in 2023.
One of the books that, she's isn't as well known, was a book
that she wrote and published in 1956.
The name always escapes me. It's, I think, the Witchcraft of
(29:55):
Salem Village. We received a copy of that as
part of the collection, and it was published in 1956 as a
children's book, for children ages eight to 12.
And, just thinking about kind ofthe kind of cultural zeitgeist
of the mid 20th century. Of course, this was during the
Cold War, in the decade or so just after World War II.
(30:17):
And basically, Jackson, who had widespread interest in
witchcraft, the occult, mythology, folklore, wrote this
book. Um, and it was basically a way
of talking about the dangers of false accusations, not having
your due justice in a court of law and just false accusations,
(30:38):
basically, and how that kind of connected the 17th century witch
trials with the mid 20th centurykind of Red Scare McCarthyism
that was happening in the mid 20th century.
And I think Jackson was very much aware of those kind of
historic ties. Josh Hutchinson: Another great
exhibit that your museum has had.
In, uh, 2023 you did did one called Haunted Vermont, and that
(31:04):
commonly featured Margaret Krieger's story.
Can you can you tell us about why that exhibit was important
and share Sarah Jack (31:11):
care, Josh Hutchinson
became involved in highlighting the story of Widow Krieger?
Jamie Franklin (31:16):
Haunted Vermont was here at the museum back in
the late summer, fall of 2023, and it was basically, the
acquisition of the Shirley Jackson archive that I
mentioned, was really one of themajor impetuses behind that
exhibition. Like as I said, I had been
working with Laurence, her eldest son, for a couple of
years, bringing it to the museum.
But there were a number of otherstories that were floating
(31:38):
around in my mind, and how I work as a curator is to try and
think of how some of these, I can bring these stories together
and to come some sort of kind ofcohesive narrative or at least a
compelling way that kind of tells how kind of history
happens, over time and through the centuries.
And so Haunted Vermont brought together stories like the trial
of Margaret Krieger, widow Krieger, in the 18th century.
(32:00):
It also featured the Demon Vampire of Manchester, Rachel
Burton. It talked about spiritualism in
the 19th century. It talked about, the Bennington
Triangle, which was a lore aboutan area here in the Bennington
area, in which, at least five plus people disappeared in the
mid 20th century. And then Shirley Jackson, whose
(32:21):
story kind of weaves through many of those topics, including
witchcraft, as we just mentioned.
The Bennington Triangle, one of the missing persons was Paula
Weldon, who was a student at Bennington College, where her
husband, Stanley Hyman, taught, and factored into a number of,
her short stories and novels, insome ways more direct and some
(32:41):
less direct. Sarah Jack: And was Margaret
Krieger's story the newest piece?
Like the newest piece of historythat was like Jamie Franklin:
Well, yeah. Sarah Jack: uncovered, I should
say? Jamie Franklin: It's one of
those where there was little bits and pieces of it out there,
and I was familiar with it. And so while I was working on
the exhibition, Haunted Vermont,you know, exhibitions usually
(33:02):
take at least a year, sometimes upwards of five, or in the case
of magic realism, they live in the back of a curator's head for
15 plus years. In the year or two leading up to
Haunted Vermont, when I knew it was happening, I basically
started chasing some of the stories that I thought were most
interesting and compelling, to see how I might be able to
incorporate them into an exhibition.
(33:24):
And so I reached out to the folks at the Pownal Historical
Society, and most notably Joyce Held.
And it turns out that Joyce had been working on, the Krieger
witch trial and widow Krieger and trying to figure out more
about it and more about her and her life story.
And so it was kind of just serendipity where there was a
little bit of knowledge out there. and, Joyce had a whole
(33:45):
lot more to give, and I think the kind of impetus of the
exhibition happening allowed herto dive in a little bit more.
And it all just came together and it was, like I said, one of
the stories that we really highlighted in the exhibition
itself, because Joyce had been able to uncover so much and give
Widow Krieger, as she was known in the historic record, a name
(34:06):
and a story that we could all relate to.
Josh Hutchinson (34:10):
Can you tell us how the historical marker came
about? Jamie Franklin: Yeah, so that
was also basically just kind of part of the process of
organizing the exhibition. As I mentioned earlier, one of
the other stories that we told in the exhibition was of the
demon Vampire of Manchester or Rachel Burton, and in 2022, the
(34:33):
year before, the exhibition herein Bennington, Sean Harrington,
who's the curator of the Manchester Historical Society
just north of us here in Bennington, ended up working
with the Vermont Folklife Centerand, the Pomeroy Foundation,
which is a foundation out of NewYork City who provides grants to
(34:53):
institutions and individuals to tell stories about local history
and particularly about folklore and, the local historical folk
tales. And I reached out to Sean up in
Manchester and he helped connectme with the folks at the
Folklife Center in Vermont, up in Middlebury, and the folks at
the Pomeroy Foundation. And I worked with Joyce and the
(35:15):
Pownal Historical Society to getthis marker erected.
It was actually installed in September of 2023 while Haunted
Vermont was on the walls here atthe museum.
So it all came together simultaneously, in the process
of working on the exhibition with Joyce and the folks up in
Manchester, up in Middlebury. and so it just came together at
the right time. Sarah Jack: When we get to learn
(35:40):
about these stories that have been hidden, and they just, they
bubble up, bubble up, bubble up,it just, it really is wonderful.
And then to hear, you know, the coordination and the
collaboration that came out of the research and the effort to
tell her story. It's really lovely.
(36:01):
And is there anything else that you would like to share about
that history or this ongoing story?
Jamie Franklin (36:09):
The story of Widow Krieger was kind of out
there, as I was doing my research, but there wasn't a
whole lot and we still don't have a lot of primary
documentation of the Krieger Witch Trial.
We know who Widow Krieger is, Margaret Krieger.
We know a lot more about her life than we knew previously.
And there are lots of other wonderful stories, which I'll
(36:31):
share here shortly. But I think what's really
interesting is why, as a curator, I think it's important
to highlight these stories is because I like to say that this
is, the story of the Krieger Witch Trial is kind of the story
that never dies. I can't tell you how many
podcasts or interviews, radio interviews, newspaper interviews
I've done since we did that exhibition and we erected the
(36:53):
marker. Joyce and the folks down at the
Pownal Historical Society are inthe process of organizing the
third annual Witches Walk, whichis an annual event, community
event that they organized down there on Pownal to celebrate and
commemorate Widow Krieger and other extraordinary women,
extraordinary women is a quote from T.
E. Brownell's original telling of
(37:13):
the witch trial, which was published in the 1860s, but, in
the process of working on the exhibition and then in the years
since kind of continuing to dig in deeper, we've just continued
to find interesting stories. While I was working on the
exhibition, because Joyce had already done so much, research
into the life of Margaret Krieger, what I wanted to do as
(37:34):
the curator was kind of try and help maybe a bigger kind of
contextual picture of, one of the things that really surprised
me, was the fact that there werestill witch trials happening in
New England as late as the 1780s, the decade after the
American Revolution. That really surprised me.
And one of the things that I didwas try and find references,
(37:56):
local historical references to witches and witchcraft during
that period. And one of the stories that I
dug up was published in the Bennington Banner.
It was published anonymously. We don't know the person that
was telling the story, but he talked about when he was a young
boy that he'd hear three witch stories in a month.
Now he only heard one witch story in a month.
But also how through the processof the Enlightenment, stories of
(38:19):
people waking up on the back of a broom and flying through the
sky at night used to be attributed to witchcraft and by
the early 19th century, when he was publishing the story, it was
probably put off to indigestion or, you know, mania of the mind.
So they were starting to understand that things like
witchcraft may not be grounded in the same sort of reality that
(38:40):
they thought about it in earliertimes.
Witchcraft really was a thing, um, that people would've been
commonly familiar with here in southwestern Vermont in the late
18th and early 19th century, andthat really surprised me.
We tend to think of it as something that happened in the
17th century, but it was still happening, more than a hundred
years later. Josh Hutchinson: Definitely,
(39:04):
yeah. Yeah.
It surprises people that Salem wasn't the end of all the witch
trial activity and, and the naming people as witches because
we certainly, 18th, 19th, even 20th century see slander suits,
other kinds of people throwing the name around still, at each
(39:25):
other and, that kind of thing. Jamie Franklin: Yeah.
One of the most recent additionsto my understanding of the
Krieger Witch Trial, as I said, we've had very little primary
documentation or evidence to go on.
Joyce recently uncovered a document that kind of shows her
husband, Juri Krieger's kind of petition to Benning Wentworth
about getting land and being granted that land, and so we've
(39:49):
had an ongoing working theory that she was likely accused of
witchcraft by her neighbors, because her husband had died.
She was a woman, owning land by a woman in the 18th century was
basically against the law. and they had been granted this land
as Dutch squatters, they were onthe New York side of things,
(40:10):
whereas most of their neighbors were English settlers who had
been granted their land through the New Hampshire land grants
and Benning Wentworth. Because he had built the mill,
because he had improved the land, he was given that land.
it's likely that their neighborswere jealous, and when he passed
away, that would've been why they would've accused her of
witchcraft was so that they could take that land from her.
(40:31):
But just in the last couple of weeks, one of Widow Krieger's
descendants, reached out to Joyce and I, about, kind of
family lore and the fact that there was lore of the witches
curse in their family, but he didn't know the story of Widow
Krieger. he was able to put the pieces of his family lore
together and connect it with a real, ancestor, who was actually
(40:54):
accused of witchcraft. But as that correspondence
played out, he was also interested in, Widow Krieger's
son, William Krieger, who was said to have died in the Battle
of Bennington, a revolutionary war battle that was fought,
well, 248 years ago on Saturday.This last Saturday was the 248th
anniversary of the Battle of Bennington, on August 16th,
(41:16):
1777. And in fact, William Krieger had
fought in the Battle of Bennington, but interestingly,
he didn't fight on the side of the Patriots.
He was a loyalist. And so most of New Yorkers, or a
lot of Yorkers were loyalists. They were loyal to King George
III of England. And so the fact that the
(41:37):
Kriegers were loyalists is probably another factor as to
why they might have wanted, you know, this is just in the decade
after the revolution. The revolution really didn't
come to a completion until 1783.Juri Krieger passed away in
1785. There was probably still lots of
tension in Pownal between the English settlers, who were
(41:59):
largely patriots, and the Krieger family, who were
loyalists. And so I haven't even had an
opportunity to talk about this theory with Joyce, but we have a
letter, a firsthand account of the Battle of Bennington, that
was written two days after it bya man named Joseph Rudd, who
lived in West Bennington. And in it, he talks about
fighting against his neighbors and talks about taking four of
(42:21):
his neighbors prisoner in the Battle of Bennington.
And it turns out they were literally, Joseph Rudd lived in
West Bennington, and next to himlived the Snyder family and the
Hallenbeck families. And the Snyders and the
Hallenbeck were loyalists, and they were taken prisoner by
their neighbor at the Battle of Bennington.
So these sorts of historical context, it's why having a story
(42:41):
like this and being able to makeit public and being able to, to
think about it and talk about iton a regular basis, it helps us
flesh out the story more by more.
The history's all there, but it takes a little bit of time for
it all to fall into place and help us, p put the pieces of the
puzzle together so we understandhow it all fits together as a
larger story. Sarah Jack: Thank you.
(43:05):
That's so great. That was so great, Jamie.
Josh Hutchinson (43:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
That really changes how we thinkabout the story, even, because
you had kind of the outsider narrative there to begin with,
with them being German and know,they're not English there, like
you said, the New York claim, not the New Hampshire claim.
(43:30):
And, now they're loyalists, so that that makes sense why the
Committee of Safety or the Council of Safety would've been
interested in the widow after this, because maybe she is also
a loyalist. Jamie Franklin: Assuming if her
son was a loyalist, it's very likely that Widow Krieger
would've been a loyalist too. I'm just no expert in this, but
(43:53):
I do know that people who were loyalists tended to be
persecuted in the years after the Revolution.
Land was taken from them, property was taken from them.
They may not have been able to take away their land simply
based off of their, the fact that they were loyalists.
Maybe they had rescinded, maybe they had the revolution was
over, those things had been settled, but I think that it
(44:15):
certainly probably played a partin the story that we haven't
previously realized, because it hadn't dawned on us that
would've been an issue that would've been very much top of
mind at that exact moment when she was accused.
Sarah Jack (44:30):
Yeah, absolutely. I really think it's significant
and I appreciate how your expertise in your work with
building exhibits to flesh out stories and build context, it
really helps us understand just stories.
So not just art and artifacts, but it what you do and how you
(44:57):
help us, the public, look at things is so important and I
appreciate that. When you say this was top of
mind in the community, that is like really significant.
I'm hearing other histories around witch trials, where what
is top of mind is now really being considered more.
(45:18):
Where they were just looking at what documents they had about
court hearings or slander or, but looking at that broader
pictures, we can fill in the details of what the community
was experiencing and what were they committed to at the time.
It's so important. So thanks for reminding us about
(45:39):
that today. Jamie Franklin: Yeah, I think
it's important to, I mean, and this kind of connects.
To the present and why, I think,why I think Widow Krieger's
story is so important, Margaret Krieger's story is so important
and why thinking about a witchcraft trial that happened
240 years ago is still relevant to us today is that, if we just
say, oh, she was accused of witchcraft.
(46:00):
Well, we don't believe in witches anymore, so that's not
pertinent to us. But if we start to understand
the political and cultural contexts in which these were
happening, these are essentially, assuming that the
issue of loyalist versus patriotdid play a role in this, and I
think there's a very good chancethat it did, then you start to
realize that it's essentially, basically political factions who
(46:22):
disagree with one another on a politic, on political grounds
using their kind of political stance as a means to take land
away from somebody. And that's the sort of thing
that's still very real in our world today, in the 21st
century, using our political perspectives, regardless of
which side of the aisle we're on, to, persecute and slander
(46:45):
people in our communities. So I, I think those larger
contexts really help us understand how the past connects
to the present in, in really direct and important ways.
Josh Hutchinson (46:56):
They definitely do and you know, with America
250 happening, the h, you said that the Bennington just just
celebrate commemorated, I shouldsay, the 248th anniversary of
the Battle at Bennington. So the two 50th is coming up and
now you've got this extra information about Widow Krieger.
(47:19):
And it just seems so timely to me that we're learning more
about how these political dynamics played out between
loyalists and patriots, Jamie Franklin: mm-hmm.
at that time. It's such a, a good, informative
lesson. Jamie Franklin: Yeah.
No, and I think, another projectthat I'm working on right now is
(47:41):
we're gonna be reinstalling our Battle of Bennington gallery,
this coming year. and the JosephRudd letter that I mentioned
about him fighting against his neighbors and taking them
prisoner, I've just been in the process of researching it, which
is why when Joyce sent me this muster roll that indicated that
four of Joseph Rudd's neighbors,'cause their names were on that
(48:01):
muster roll that William Krieger's name was on as a
person who died at the Battle ofBennington.
The Snyder's and Hallenbeck's names were on it as taken
prisoner. So it just happened to be happy
coincidence that these two things were going on in my mind
at the same time. So I was able to put the pieces
of the puzzle together. But that's, as you say, we're
working on the 250th right now, in terms of exhibition projects
(48:25):
here at the museum, and sometimes it's just sheer luck
that those things come across your desk at the same time and
you're able to connect the pieces.
So I was really happy with that,and I'm looking forward to being
able chat with Joyce about it, and using it as another kind of
avenue for us to continue to digdeeper and see what else we can
try and figure out about this story.
(48:46):
Remember, the third annual Pownal Witches Walk
is Saturday, September 13th at noon.
Meet up at Dean Road Bridge. Sarah Jack: Even if you're not
in the Pownal, Vermont area, youcan help memorialize Margaret
Krieger by sharing her story andfollowing the Pownal Historical
Society on Facebook to stay connected with their events and
(49:07):
research. Josh Hutchinson: Have a great
today and a beautiful tomorrow.
Welcome to The Thing About Witch Hunts podcast.
(00:02):
I'm Sarah Jack. Josh Hutchinson: And I'm Josh
Hutchinson. When most people think about
witch trials in America, they think of Salem in 1692, but
witch hunts didn't end there. Sarah Jack: Today, we're
traveling back to Vermont to revisit an extraordinary woman,
whose story we were first introduced to two years ago by
(00:22):
Jamie Franklin, curator at the Bennington Museum, who rejoins
us today with an update. Josh Hutchinson: Also joining us
today is Joyce Held of the Pownal Historical Society who
has spent years researching the woman known only as Widow
Krieger, uncovering her real name and life story.
Joyce and Jamie are bringing more light to the story
(00:45):
by connecting this woman's Witchtrial to the broader political
tensions of post-Revolutionary War America.
Josh Hutchinson (00:54):
This is the story of Margaret Krieger's
trial by water in midwinter, nowupdated with a surprise twist.
Sarah Jack (01:01):
We will now open with the delightful conversation
we had with Joyce Held, and thenyou'll hear Jamie Franklin
reveal a shocking surprise that we didn't know was coming until
the recording. Welcome to The Thing About Witch
Hunts podcast. We are so delighted to get to
talk to you about a Vermont accused witch today.
(01:22):
Please introduce yourself and tell us why it's so important
for you to preserve historical stories.
Joyce Held (01:29):
My name is Joyce Held.
I'm on the board of the Pownal, Vermont Historical Society.
And of course my passion is to capture, preserve, and share the
history of not only our town, but history in itself for future
generations. Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so
much. How did you first get interested
(01:49):
in this Vermont witch trial? Joyce Held: Years ago.
I really tried to remember when it became the little nit in my
brain that kept bugging me, but I read somewhere along the line,
a little, a clip from, it was T.E.
Brownell that it was in the, I think it was the 1868 or
(02:12):
something like that Vermont Gazetteer about the witch trial
and the Widow Krieger, and it was a very short, little article
that Mr. Brownell wrote and it in it kind of intrigued me, but
that's all it was, was widow Krieger.
It didn't know her name, didn't know anything about her, just
Widow Krieger. And so off and on over many,
(02:34):
many years, she would surface back, and I'd do a little more
research and whatever. And then all of a sudden, it
wasn't just let's find out abouther.
It was more like, I know her, I wanna know more about her.
That's when I started to really get involved.
Sarah Jack (02:51):
So she is a real person, and her story was just
really calling out to you. Would you like to tell us about
her and what you found? Joyce Held: What intrigued me
was that it was stated that Widow Krieger was accused of
being a witch after her husband had died in 1785.
(03:12):
Of course, I didn't know this, this is the things I found
afterwards. It didn't give a date, but after
her husband had died, she had been accused of being a witch.
Her accusers, called her an extraordinary woman.
And she was brought before the safety committee.
And the safety committee decidedthat there were two tests that
they could put her to to find out if she truly was a witch.
(03:35):
The first one they could use would be where they would have
her climb a tree, and she would climb a tree, and they would cut
it down. If she survived, she was a
witch, because the devil saved her.
If she didn't survive, she wasn't a witch, but she'd be
dead. So, that didn't sound too
(03:56):
appealing, I don't think, to anybody.
The second one was the water test, and, that's the one that
they decided that they would do because they're right there
along the Hoosick River here in Pownal.
So, they cut a hole in the ice, and they dropped the widow in.
And the idea was if she sank, she wasn't a witch.
(04:19):
If she floated, then that meant the powers of infernal were
holding her up. Well, fortunately for Widow
Krieger, she sank like a rock and they were able to pull her
out and save her. So, she was acquitted.
So that's what started the wholeadventure, my adventure of I
need to know more. Yeah.
(04:43):
And these pins that we're wearing is an illustration
of that second test. Joyce Held: Yes, indeed.
Yes. When she was dropped into the
river and pulled back up. Sarah Jack: And this is your
art? Joyce Held: No, no.
It's a friend's artwork. Sarah Jack: A friend's artwork.
Joyce Held (04:58):
Yeah. But it's, to me, it's, it shows
what really happened. Yeah.
So, so then I, so then I was fascinated with that.
So first question was, who was she?
The only thing I could resonate towards was the fact that we
have a outcrop of rocks in NorthPownal, and we all call 'em
(05:20):
Krieger Rocks and it's like anything else, you're just
raised with it or whatever, and so it's just Krieger Rocks and
you don't question why is it Krieger Rocks, you know?
And so then I thought, oh, so there we are, and it's North
Pownal. And so started going back
through there and was able to, find Johann Juri Krieger, who
(05:41):
came up along the Hudson and theDutch worked along through the
Hudson, and they actually kind got mixed up once or twice.
But anyway, they wound up along the Hoosick River, 'cause the
Hoosick River eventually does gointo the Hudson.
And he and a group of others hadcome to the frontier land of
what would become Pownal, because there was nothing here,
(06:02):
absolutely nothing here. And but was fertile land.
The Native Americans had been here and they would hunt and
fish and everything here. So it was fertile land.
So they had cleared land. Johann was an experienced mill
builder. And so he built a mill along the
river and built a house. And so I thought, oh, so who was
(06:23):
this man? Huh?
So his name is Krieger. Just doing research, digging
here, digging there, I came across a marriage certificate
from the Albany Reformed Church for 1741 that Johann married
Marguerite Schumacher from Williamstown, Massachusetts.
(06:43):
So now I had Widow Krieger's first name, Marguerite,
Marguerite Schumacher. And so then that's when she had
a name, and I started learning about her.
She was 16 when they married. He was 14 years her senior.
And she moved to the frontier land of Pownal, not Pownal, but
(07:04):
of where there was the east sideof the Rensselaerwick Manor is
what it was called. And then, of course, it got
involved with the New Hampshire grants and all that, but anyway,
it eventually became Pownal beginning, Pownal eventually
became part of the state of Vermont.
But, this was all before that, so that's how I found her name.
And then they had three children.
(07:26):
They had three sons. And it was fascinating to read
the fact that the three sons, obviously they, they learned
from their father building millsand the town of Williamstown, it
had actually as, when these young men became like 20 years
old or so, they invited them to Williamstown to build mills for
(07:48):
them, for the town of Williamstown.
And they were given land in Williamstown, and they proceeded
to build some mills down there that, which was called Krieger
Mills down in the, in the town of Williamstown, Mass.
So it was kind of unique becauseMarguerite was from
Williamstown. Johann had the house in and mill
(08:10):
in, I'm gonna say Vermont, but it wasn't Vermont, but in
Pownal. And it was only like an eight
mile difference. We're very close to the border.
So they actually had citizenship, I think, dual
citizenship, because it was veryeasy to own property in
Williamstown, Mass and own property over the border, what
(08:31):
would become Vermont. So that's how they got to be
dual residents, I guess I would call them.
I guess the first thing that happened was their middle son,
Peter, died at a very early age,and I'm still working on what he
died from. I have no clue.
(08:52):
But it was 27 years old. He never was married, and I
don't think it was a sickness, because he was hardy and
building mills. I tend to think maybe it was an
accident at the mill. But I can't say until I find
out. So, that's one of those question
marks on the side, when you're writing something down, question
(09:12):
mark, what do you do? The youngest son, William, he
went off to the Battle of Bennington and was killed.
So in a short period of time, they lost the two sons and they,
when he had, John George, by that time they were using the
English names, no, Johann Juri, but John George, but their son,
John George. So that's what was left before
(09:34):
Johan, Johann Senior there passed away.
Sarah Jack (09:37):
Is there anything you wanna tell us about the
battle or that time period? Joyce Held: I'm looking at
Marguerite, and I admire her. I truly, truly admire her.
At the age of 16, she left her family home, came to a place
where, you know, there were Native Americans here.
We have a road called Indian Massacre Road.
There were Indian upheaval type things going on, raids and
(10:00):
burnings and all that thing. And here she is before she's 21
years old, or just about 21 years old, and she's a wife,
she's a mother of three boys. They're running a mill.
They're farming, because they raise the grain to mill.
I just admire her, and I keep saying to people, yeah, they
were right, she was extraordinary woman.
(10:20):
I mean, she was strong. She was one strong,
extraordinary woman, and she wasresilient, and I just totally
admire her. And she was all about family.
And I can tell you that, becausewhen William died, of course she
was mourning his death, her, I call him her sweet William.
When William died, she went backto Williamstown, because he had
(10:43):
babies. His children were just tiny, and
so she went and moved in with Margaret, what her
daughter-in-law's name was, and moved in with Margaret to help
with the children. So she was back and forth
helping her husband at the mill in Williamstown, supporting the
family. And then, of course, Johann,
obviously with the 14 years difference, he got elderly
(11:03):
before she did, and then she hada sick husband.
And so she just took care of everybody.
She was just amazing, and I really, really took her on as a
friend and I just wanted to tellher story.
I just thought, it's time for you to shine, Marguerite.
It's time for you, and shame on the people who disrupt her life
(11:24):
by saying that she was a witch. And it was pure greed.
It was pure greed. I mean, the husband was gone.
back when, in 1760 when the New Hampshire grants were happening,
the English came, and they looked upon the Dutch as
squatters. They weren't landowners.
They were squatters. Well, I begged to differ.
(11:44):
They came, and they took that land, and they made it useful.
And I just recently found a petition that Johann sent to
Governor Wentworth, stating the fact that he and his neighbors
had for over 20 years been working this land, raising the
wheat or whatever they were, thecorn, whatever their real,
(12:06):
grinding. and he asked if they would give them their land.
And lo and behold, the proprietors did recognize the
fact that Johann improved the land, and they did allow him to
keep his land. So then when he dies in 1785,
what are they gonna do? Now, this man owned that mill,
(12:30):
he owned that land, and there's just this one lady that is the
owner. and the English of course, we're very quite
familiar with the witch accusations.
And because you figure that Marguerite spoke a different
(12:51):
language. Her customs, her mannerisms or
whatever you wanna call 'em, were different than the English.
And so, because she was different, it was different.
And she did land and they wantedit, boy, they wanted it.
And it doesn't sound like they waited long.
Joyce Held (13:07):
Oh, no, they were. They were Sarah Jack
she was in trouble. Joyce Held: Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah.
They wanted it done. And after she was acquitted, I
think she was done with this whole area and she went back to
Williamstown, and that's where she lived out her rest of her
years. She died in 1790, and she lived
(13:30):
with William's children, her grandchildren, and she had
sheep. And I read her will and she had
a granddaughter, Margaret, all these Margarets.
And she divided the sheep amongst the three children of
William, and she left Margaret her aprons.
It is just beautiful, something that grandmother would do.
(13:50):
Here's my favorite apron, or this is my favorite bedspread or
quilt or whatever it may be. The Bibles, Dutch Bibles. just
all the different things that wedo today.
We give to our grandchildren or our great-grandchildren to carry
on that tradition. Yeah, family meant a lot to her.
Just a great, great woman. I could just go on and on and on
(14:11):
and, but anyway, she was wonderful woman.
Josh Hutchinson (14:13):
Yeah, on family, is much known about what
became of her grandchildren? Has anybody come forward to you
and said, Hey, we're descendants?
Joyce Held (14:22):
Yes, she, the, like I said, after she had the, after
the trial and everything, a Krieger name doesn't not, does
not show up in Vermont history ever again as anyone living here
by that name. All we have left is Krieger
Rocks, which is wonderful. We got that.
And so now we've got at least something, a monument to that
(14:43):
name. The families knew each other.
What I was talking about, that petition that Johann sent, one
of the names he had on that petition was a family name that
the offsprings of the Krieger family in Williamstown married
into. Sarah Jack: Oh, Joyce Held:
Yeah, so there's names and there's people and Yeah.
So I have talked to people that says, oh, I never knew this.
(15:06):
I just knew that, I didn't know about this Vermont part of the
history. So yeah, there's some people out
there that are part of the history, yes.
And it's great to talk with them.
One lady in particular wants to stay anonymous, but, she's done
a lot of research, and her and Ihave been chatting back and
forth and it's just really nice to put the story together.
(15:28):
It's just like working with somebody's family tree, and you
go, oh, you call up the cousin and say, hey, I found out
whatever. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
In that sense, it's still a living history.
is. It is Josh Hutchinson
legacy lives on. Joyce Held: And I think that
she, what she went through and all of that.
I think, you look at today and you realize that some things
have changed, some things have not changed.
(15:49):
History does repeat itself. And then on the other hand, we
should learn from history. We should learn from history.
Sarah Jack (15:57):
This is so wonderful.
Can you tell us about how you and your community are
commemorating her? Joyce Held: I was doing all this
work and what have you and, in 2023, I was working with Jamie
Franklin from the Bennington Museum on another project.
And so we were working on this art project, and during the
(16:18):
course of back and forth or something, I really, how we got
onto it, I'm not sure, but, I mentioned Widow Krieger and
Jamie was wanting to know more, and so I told him this story.
And so he was saying, oh, they're putting in a marker up
in Manchester for the, I don't know if you've heard about the
Manchester Vampire, Manchester, Vermont Vampire.
(16:38):
They had a marker they put up, and it's a Pomeroy foundation
and Vermont Folklore. And I looked at him and I said,
Marguerite needs a marker. Widow Krieger needs a marker.
So then that's when we both decided this is exactly what we
wanna do. And we worked together, and we
(16:58):
dedicated it September of 2023, along at the Strobridge Park in
North Pownal on Dean Road, alongthe Hoosick River, right below
Krieger Rocks, and it's just fitting.
It's just beautiful. And last year we, we had our
second annual Witches Walk, and now we're planning our third
annual Witches Walk this September 13th.
(17:19):
So, and what we do is we, it's in remembrance of Marguerite,
but it's also celebrating women.It's celebrating women, because
my theory is all women are extraordinary in their own way.
We're unique. Each one of us is special.
And I just wanna get that message across that we're unique
(17:41):
in our own and our strength, andno offense to the gentlemen.
I mean, we don't work out with the irons or whatever, but our
strength and our resilience, we hold the families together and
keep the fires burning when the husbands or the fathers are off
to war or whatever. Sarah Jack: And the walk, it's
(18:02):
people from the community comingtogether.
And what's the path? Does it, you go from like town
to the river or how does that work?
Joyce Held (18:12):
It's amazing where the people come from.
They come from all states. We have people from Salem, they
come from all over. and that's wonderful.
And we have all ages, babies andstrollers and we have all
genders. And, it's just a real community
feeling and, smiles, all smiles galore and some tears and what
(18:35):
we do is there's a lovely bridgethat goes across from the,
depending what side you're on, but it goes east and west over
the Hoosick River. And so we go onto the west side.
And we all gather there, and we walk across the bridge, playing
music, dancing, whatever we wanna do.
It's all about celebrating and remembering.
(18:57):
And then we go to the park, and we have refreshments and we have
talks. We tell the stories.
It's a community thing. It really is.
And we had wonderful dancers there, a group of ladies dancers
there last year, and they're coming back this year, which
really gets everybody involved, and everybody wants to dance.
And yes, it's just, everybody feels like they're being seen,
(19:19):
yeah. So we're like you're here, I see
you and we love you. It was almost like a sisterhood.
Sarah Jack (19:26):
Yeah. Yeah.
She took the brunt of something for other women, and you're able
to celebrate. Joyce Held: Yes.
And you know what? During the whole thing,
researching her and I've done genealogy for so many years and
we've been all over the world doing things with different
family lines, and I'll share something, the fact that I do
(19:46):
talk to the people that I'm researching and I, I don't wanna
be spiritual or whatever, but I do talk to them and I'll ask
them things. And sometimes I'll go to a
cemetery and I can't find them, and I'll say, where are you?
And then I'll say, okay, you don't wanna be found today.
I understand. And then I maybe go back a
couple of days later, like, where are you?
And then I go right there. Okay.
So, and then I laugh and say, are you playing tricks on me?
(20:09):
You know, the whole thing. But I was thinking, with
Marguerite, how she must have felt when all this was
happening. She had three sons.
Two were gone. She was trying to be the standup
strong person for her boys' families.
She had to be, their father died.
So she had to be the standup mother.
Don't break down, be strong for the kids, and then this
(20:32):
happened. It's just so insulting, and I
kept thinking, what would I do if I was there?
What would I have done? And then the thought was like,
would I be strong enough to say no, she's not a witch and put
myself out there, maybe there would be two dunkings that day,
but when I found her stone, and I was able to, because it was a
(20:53):
long time finding where she was buried, but when I found her
stone and I walked over to it, Ihugged it, and I cried, and I
told her I was so, so sorry for what she went through, and it
was very, very emotional. But I could feel that she felt
it, that somebody understood. Sarah Jack: That's really
beautiful. She's was extraordinary, and
(21:14):
it's special that her burial is known and she can be remembered
there by family and community, but then you have the marker and
the rocks. It's really, together that's
just really wonderful, because it's so rare to have so much,
even though it's not a lot for what she went through.
(21:37):
I'm really glad those pieces of the story kept speaking to you.
Joyce Held (21:43):
No, it definitely I enjoyed, and I'm sure that I'll
be meeting her up in heaven before I get the whole story
together, because every day whenI pick up something, I go, oh,
yeah. Oh, I still haven't found out
where Peter, you know how he died.
And I go off and I'm looking where Peter died, and that's how
I found the petition. Because you go down this street,
and you think you're going in the right path, but then you
(22:05):
take a turn, and the next thing you know, you're off with
another member of the family. Have you ever done research, and
I'm sure you have it, it gets tobe a huge, gigantic puzzle and
and you think, you're looking for this piece, but you realize
that you've gotta find this piece before this piece will fit
in there, you know? Sarah Jack: Yeah.
I'm just so excited that you found that petition, those types
(22:26):
of documents really fill storiesin.
You were able to, see his, efforts when he was fighting for
his property, he had his wife inmind.
He knew he was older than her and his descendants.
And then you were able to see how families married and came
(22:46):
together, names, that were so that.
I just loved these petitions. I'm so glad you found it.
Josh Hutchinson (22:50):
Thank you so much for joining us today,
Joyce. This has been a real pleasure.
It's such a compelling, powerfulstory, reminds me in some ways
of other witch trials, but it's so unique in many of the details
and the timing of it, and I'm just grateful that you've done
this research into it. So thank you for joining us
(23:14):
today. When will the Witches Walk be
held this year? Joyce Held: It will be held
Saturday, September 13th at the,Strobridge, recreation park and
it's on Dean Road in North Pownal, Vermont.
And we start about noon, and it goes on all afternoon, so.
All is welcome and come out and enjoy.
(23:37):
So, and thank you for showing such a great response and
enthusiasm to the story, becausegetting the story out and having
people like you and Sarah working on getting the word out
of what happens and just reminding us all where we come
from. Sarah Jack: And I wanna point
out real quick that your historical society's social
(23:58):
media is so wonderful. You are active on Facebook, and
I really look forward to those posts, so listeners can find you
guys on Facebook. Joyce Held: Yeah, Pownal
Historical Society, and we are working on our website, which
would be www.pownal.org. So it's real quick and easy and
(24:19):
we are revamping that whole website.
It'll have more stuff and be able to be updated a lot easier.
It's a lot of work, but, just getting the word out and that,
for people who are interested. But we're here, and we're
passing the word along and we'repassing along the good vibes and
the happiness and cheer to everyone.
Sarah Jack (24:40):
Welcome back to the podcast, Jamie Franklin.
Last time we chatted, this podcast was still audio only,
and we called it Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
A lot has changed, we are still very much the same, and we're so
happy to have this opportunity to add you to our fresh
(25:00):
discussion of the widow MargaretKrieger, the accused witch of
Vermont. Please introduceourself and tell
us about your work at the Bennington Museum.
Jamie Franklin (25:10):
It's my pleasure.
I'm glad to be back. Again, my name is Jamie Franklin
and I guess my official title atthe Bennington Museum is
Director of Collections and Exhibitions.
The simple title is Curator. So basically I'm the curator at
the museum. I'm in charge of developing our
collections, researching our collections, and then presenting
them to the public, whether thatbe in exhibitions, publications,
(25:32):
or podcasts like this. So, I get to play with all the
old stuff, basically is what I do at the museum.
Josh Hutchinson (25:40):
Yeah. And before we begin our
discussion of Widow Krieger, or I should I should say, before we
resume our discussion of Widow Krieger, we'd love to know about
what's happening at the museum right now.
Can you tell us about the the current exhibit, Green Mountain
Magic (25:56):
Uncanny Realism in Vermont?
Jamie Franklin (25:59):
Yeah, it's a largely a visual art exhibition.
And it's a project that I've kind of had in the back of my
head for about 15 years. It has its origins in an
exhibition that was at the Museum of Modern Art back in
1943. And when I started working here
at the museum, actually I'm celebrating my 20th anniversary
here, coming up in a couple of weeks, so I've been here a
(26:21):
while. So, one of the collections that
we are most known for is having the largest public collection of
the work of Anna Mary Robertson Moses or Grandma Moses, and so
she was probably one of the bestknown self-taught artists in
America, if not in the world, inthe mid 20th century.
And, a lot of my research as a curator, particularly of Grandma
(26:44):
Moses' work, has been into the kind of intersection of. the
work of self-taught artists and modernism in America. and as I
was, doing my early research on Grandma Moses, I came across the
fact that a number of exhibitions at the Museum of
Modern Art in the late thirties and early forties featured not
only Moses but other self-taughtartists, including Patsy Santo,
(27:04):
who was an artist who lived herein Bennington.
Santo, along with about five other artists, were in an
exhibition at MoMA in 1943 called, Realism and Magic
Realism. And it kind of clicked my
interest in why were all of these artists from Vermont in
this exhibition. And so the exhibition features
those six artists, Patsy Santo, Ivan Albright, John Atherton,
(27:26):
Paul Cadmus and Jared French andVanessa Helder, along with
another group, another about sixor seven artists who were
working in the realm of magic realism, which, to give a real
quick, I won't say definition, 'cause I don't know that there
is a definition, but it's kind of a parallel with surrealism,
but instead of dwelling on like dream worlds and the
(27:49):
unconscious, it focuses on real world imagery, often painted
very, very crisply and so intensely that it almost feels
like you're in a dream. But it's not of a dream, it's of
the real world. That's kind of my quick and
dirty description of it. And so, the exhibition really
explores these artists who are working in Vermont in the mid
20th century, but I also folded in the work of Shirley Jackson,
(28:12):
which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit more here in the
course of the podcast. Sarah Jack: That sounds really
wonderful. The website, does give a peek
into the exhibition, but Jamie Franklin: Yeah.
Sarah Jack (28:25):
you know, hearing you talk about it, too, I'm like
ready to jump on a plane and fly, fly, Jamie Franklin: Well.
across the country Jamie Franklin
one to see come together. Like I said, you know, sometimes
these exhibitions live in our heads as curators for a long
time and to be able to see 'em. And it's some of my favorite
work, Really to be honest. One of my favorite paintings of
all time is in the exhibition. Sarah Jack: That's so wonderful.
(28:48):
Can you remind us about Shirley Jackson and her contribution to
the legacy of the Salem Witch Trials and literature and about
her collection at your museum? Jamie Franklin: Yeah.
So, I have known Shirley's children, particularly, Laurence
Hyman, her oldest son, for a number of years, and in 2021, so
(29:10):
going on four years ago, four plus years ago, he approached me
about the possibility of donating a, collection of
materials, archival materials, manuscripts, first edition,
copies of her books, her dining room table, which he used to
write some for final novels on ahaunted music box.
A bunch of materials that kind of help flush out Jackson's
(29:33):
career as a writer, but also herlife in North Bennington, where
she lived and worked for most of, her career.
And so that collection ended up coming to us in 2023.
One of the books that, she's isn't as well known, was a book
that she wrote and published in 1956.
The name always escapes me. It's, I think, the Witchcraft of
(29:55):
Salem Village. We received a copy of that as
part of the collection, and it was published in 1956 as a
children's book, for children ages eight to 12.
And, just thinking about kind ofthe kind of cultural zeitgeist
of the mid 20th century. Of course, this was during the
Cold War, in the decade or so just after World War II.
(30:17):
And basically, Jackson, who had widespread interest in
witchcraft, the occult, mythology, folklore, wrote this
book. Um, and it was basically a way
of talking about the dangers of false accusations, not having
your due justice in a court of law and just false accusations,
(30:38):
basically, and how that kind of connected the 17th century witch
trials with the mid 20th centurykind of Red Scare McCarthyism
that was happening in the mid 20th century.
And I think Jackson was very much aware of those kind of
historic ties. Josh Hutchinson: Another great
exhibit that your museum has had.
In, uh, 2023 you did did one called Haunted Vermont, and that
(31:04):
commonly featured Margaret Krieger's story.
Can you can you tell us about why that exhibit was important
and share Sarah Jack (31:11):
care, Josh Hutchinson
became involved in highlighting the story of Widow Krieger?
Jamie Franklin (31:16):
Haunted Vermont was here at the museum back in
the late summer, fall of 2023, and it was basically, the
acquisition of the Shirley Jackson archive that I
mentioned, was really one of themajor impetuses behind that
exhibition. Like as I said, I had been
working with Laurence, her eldest son, for a couple of
years, bringing it to the museum.
But there were a number of otherstories that were floating
(31:38):
around in my mind, and how I work as a curator is to try and
think of how some of these, I can bring these stories together
and to come some sort of kind ofcohesive narrative or at least a
compelling way that kind of tells how kind of history
happens, over time and through the centuries.
And so Haunted Vermont brought together stories like the trial
of Margaret Krieger, widow Krieger, in the 18th century.
(32:00):
It also featured the Demon Vampire of Manchester, Rachel
Burton. It talked about spiritualism in
the 19th century. It talked about, the Bennington
Triangle, which was a lore aboutan area here in the Bennington
area, in which, at least five plus people disappeared in the
mid 20th century. And then Shirley Jackson, whose
(32:21):
story kind of weaves through many of those topics, including
witchcraft, as we just mentioned.
The Bennington Triangle, one of the missing persons was Paula
Weldon, who was a student at Bennington College, where her
husband, Stanley Hyman, taught, and factored into a number of,
her short stories and novels, insome ways more direct and some
(32:41):
less direct. Sarah Jack: And was Margaret
Krieger's story the newest piece?
Like the newest piece of historythat was like Jamie Franklin:
Well, yeah. Sarah Jack: uncovered, I should
say? Jamie Franklin: It's one of
those where there was little bits and pieces of it out there,
and I was familiar with it. And so while I was working on
the exhibition, Haunted Vermont,you know, exhibitions usually
(33:02):
take at least a year, sometimes upwards of five, or in the case
of magic realism, they live in the back of a curator's head for
15 plus years. In the year or two leading up to
Haunted Vermont, when I knew it was happening, I basically
started chasing some of the stories that I thought were most
interesting and compelling, to see how I might be able to
incorporate them into an exhibition.
(33:24):
And so I reached out to the folks at the Pownal Historical
Society, and most notably Joyce Held.
And it turns out that Joyce had been working on, the Krieger
witch trial and widow Krieger and trying to figure out more
about it and more about her and her life story.
And so it was kind of just serendipity where there was a
little bit of knowledge out there. and, Joyce had a whole
(33:45):
lot more to give, and I think the kind of impetus of the
exhibition happening allowed herto dive in a little bit more.
And it all just came together and it was, like I said, one of
the stories that we really highlighted in the exhibition
itself, because Joyce had been able to uncover so much and give
Widow Krieger, as she was known in the historic record, a name
(34:06):
and a story that we could all relate to.
Josh Hutchinson (34:10):
Can you tell us how the historical marker came
about? Jamie Franklin: Yeah, so that
was also basically just kind of part of the process of
organizing the exhibition. As I mentioned earlier, one of
the other stories that we told in the exhibition was of the
demon Vampire of Manchester or Rachel Burton, and in 2022, the
(34:33):
year before, the exhibition herein Bennington, Sean Harrington,
who's the curator of the Manchester Historical Society
just north of us here in Bennington, ended up working
with the Vermont Folklife Centerand, the Pomeroy Foundation,
which is a foundation out of NewYork City who provides grants to
(34:53):
institutions and individuals to tell stories about local history
and particularly about folklore and, the local historical folk
tales. And I reached out to Sean up in
Manchester and he helped connectme with the folks at the
Folklife Center in Vermont, up in Middlebury, and the folks at
the Pomeroy Foundation. And I worked with Joyce and the
(35:15):
Pownal Historical Society to getthis marker erected.
It was actually installed in September of 2023 while Haunted
Vermont was on the walls here atthe museum.
So it all came together simultaneously, in the process
of working on the exhibition with Joyce and the folks up in
Manchester, up in Middlebury. and so it just came together at
the right time. Sarah Jack: When we get to learn
(35:40):
about these stories that have been hidden, and they just, they
bubble up, bubble up, bubble up,it just, it really is wonderful.
And then to hear, you know, the coordination and the
collaboration that came out of the research and the effort to
tell her story. It's really lovely.
(36:01):
And is there anything else that you would like to share about
that history or this ongoing story?
Jamie Franklin (36:09):
The story of Widow Krieger was kind of out
there, as I was doing my research, but there wasn't a
whole lot and we still don't have a lot of primary
documentation of the Krieger Witch Trial.
We know who Widow Krieger is, Margaret Krieger.
We know a lot more about her life than we knew previously.
And there are lots of other wonderful stories, which I'll
(36:31):
share here shortly. But I think what's really
interesting is why, as a curator, I think it's important
to highlight these stories is because I like to say that this
is, the story of the Krieger Witch Trial is kind of the story
that never dies. I can't tell you how many
podcasts or interviews, radio interviews, newspaper interviews
I've done since we did that exhibition and we erected the
(36:53):
marker. Joyce and the folks down at the
Pownal Historical Society are inthe process of organizing the
third annual Witches Walk, whichis an annual event, community
event that they organized down there on Pownal to celebrate and
commemorate Widow Krieger and other extraordinary women,
extraordinary women is a quote from T.
E. Brownell's original telling of
(37:13):
the witch trial, which was published in the 1860s, but, in
the process of working on the exhibition and then in the years
since kind of continuing to dig in deeper, we've just continued
to find interesting stories. While I was working on the
exhibition, because Joyce had already done so much, research
into the life of Margaret Krieger, what I wanted to do as
(37:34):
the curator was kind of try and help maybe a bigger kind of
contextual picture of, one of the things that really surprised
me, was the fact that there werestill witch trials happening in
New England as late as the 1780s, the decade after the
American Revolution. That really surprised me.
And one of the things that I didwas try and find references,
(37:56):
local historical references to witches and witchcraft during
that period. And one of the stories that I
dug up was published in the Bennington Banner.
It was published anonymously. We don't know the person that
was telling the story, but he talked about when he was a young
boy that he'd hear three witch stories in a month.
Now he only heard one witch story in a month.
But also how through the processof the Enlightenment, stories of
(38:19):
people waking up on the back of a broom and flying through the
sky at night used to be attributed to witchcraft and by
the early 19th century, when he was publishing the story, it was
probably put off to indigestion or, you know, mania of the mind.
So they were starting to understand that things like
witchcraft may not be grounded in the same sort of reality that
(38:40):
they thought about it in earliertimes.
Witchcraft really was a thing, um, that people would've been
commonly familiar with here in southwestern Vermont in the late
18th and early 19th century, andthat really surprised me.
We tend to think of it as something that happened in the
17th century, but it was still happening, more than a hundred
years later. Josh Hutchinson: Definitely,
(39:04):
yeah. Yeah.
It surprises people that Salem wasn't the end of all the witch
trial activity and, and the naming people as witches because
we certainly, 18th, 19th, even 20th century see slander suits,
other kinds of people throwing the name around still, at each
(39:25):
other and, that kind of thing. Jamie Franklin: Yeah.
One of the most recent additionsto my understanding of the
Krieger Witch Trial, as I said, we've had very little primary
documentation or evidence to go on.
Joyce recently uncovered a document that kind of shows her
husband, Juri Krieger's kind of petition to Benning Wentworth
about getting land and being granted that land, and so we've
(39:49):
had an ongoing working theory that she was likely accused of
witchcraft by her neighbors, because her husband had died.
She was a woman, owning land by a woman in the 18th century was
basically against the law. and they had been granted this land
as Dutch squatters, they were onthe New York side of things,
(40:10):
whereas most of their neighbors were English settlers who had
been granted their land through the New Hampshire land grants
and Benning Wentworth. Because he had built the mill,
because he had improved the land, he was given that land.
it's likely that their neighborswere jealous, and when he passed
away, that would've been why they would've accused her of
witchcraft was so that they could take that land from her.
(40:31):
But just in the last couple of weeks, one of Widow Krieger's
descendants, reached out to Joyce and I, about, kind of
family lore and the fact that there was lore of the witches
curse in their family, but he didn't know the story of Widow
Krieger. he was able to put the pieces of his family lore
together and connect it with a real, ancestor, who was actually
(40:54):
accused of witchcraft. But as that correspondence
played out, he was also interested in, Widow Krieger's
son, William Krieger, who was said to have died in the Battle
of Bennington, a revolutionary war battle that was fought,
well, 248 years ago on Saturday.This last Saturday was the 248th
anniversary of the Battle of Bennington, on August 16th,
(41:16):
1777. And in fact, William Krieger had
fought in the Battle of Bennington, but interestingly,
he didn't fight on the side of the Patriots.
He was a loyalist. And so most of New Yorkers, or a
lot of Yorkers were loyalists. They were loyal to King George
III of England. And so the fact that the
(41:37):
Kriegers were loyalists is probably another factor as to
why they might have wanted, you know, this is just in the decade
after the revolution. The revolution really didn't
come to a completion until 1783.Juri Krieger passed away in
1785. There was probably still lots of
tension in Pownal between the English settlers, who were
(41:59):
largely patriots, and the Krieger family, who were
loyalists. And so I haven't even had an
opportunity to talk about this theory with Joyce, but we have a
letter, a firsthand account of the Battle of Bennington, that
was written two days after it bya man named Joseph Rudd, who
lived in West Bennington. And in it, he talks about
fighting against his neighbors and talks about taking four of
(42:21):
his neighbors prisoner in the Battle of Bennington.
And it turns out they were literally, Joseph Rudd lived in
West Bennington, and next to himlived the Snyder family and the
Hallenbeck families. And the Snyders and the
Hallenbeck were loyalists, and they were taken prisoner by
their neighbor at the Battle of Bennington.
So these sorts of historical context, it's why having a story
(42:41):
like this and being able to makeit public and being able to, to
think about it and talk about iton a regular basis, it helps us
flesh out the story more by more.
The history's all there, but it takes a little bit of time for
it all to fall into place and help us, p put the pieces of the
puzzle together so we understandhow it all fits together as a
larger story. Sarah Jack: Thank you.
(43:05):
That's so great. That was so great, Jamie.
Josh Hutchinson (43:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
That really changes how we thinkabout the story, even, because
you had kind of the outsider narrative there to begin with,
with them being German and know,they're not English there, like
you said, the New York claim, not the New Hampshire claim.
(43:30):
And, now they're loyalists, so that that makes sense why the
Committee of Safety or the Council of Safety would've been
interested in the widow after this, because maybe she is also
a loyalist. Jamie Franklin: Assuming if her
son was a loyalist, it's very likely that Widow Krieger
would've been a loyalist too. I'm just no expert in this, but
(43:53):
I do know that people who were loyalists tended to be
persecuted in the years after the Revolution.
Land was taken from them, property was taken from them.
They may not have been able to take away their land simply
based off of their, the fact that they were loyalists.
Maybe they had rescinded, maybe they had the revolution was
over, those things had been settled, but I think that it
(44:15):
certainly probably played a partin the story that we haven't
previously realized, because it hadn't dawned on us that
would've been an issue that would've been very much top of
mind at that exact moment when she was accused.
Sarah Jack (44:30):
Yeah, absolutely. I really think it's significant
and I appreciate how your expertise in your work with
building exhibits to flesh out stories and build context, it
really helps us understand just stories.
So not just art and artifacts, but it what you do and how you
(44:57):
help us, the public, look at things is so important and I
appreciate that. When you say this was top of
mind in the community, that is like really significant.
I'm hearing other histories around witch trials, where what
is top of mind is now really being considered more.
(45:18):
Where they were just looking at what documents they had about
court hearings or slander or, but looking at that broader
pictures, we can fill in the details of what the community
was experiencing and what were they committed to at the time.
It's so important. So thanks for reminding us about
(45:39):
that today. Jamie Franklin: Yeah, I think
it's important to, I mean, and this kind of connects.
To the present and why, I think,why I think Widow Krieger's
story is so important, Margaret Krieger's story is so important
and why thinking about a witchcraft trial that happened
240 years ago is still relevant to us today is that, if we just
say, oh, she was accused of witchcraft.
(46:00):
Well, we don't believe in witches anymore, so that's not
pertinent to us. But if we start to understand
the political and cultural contexts in which these were
happening, these are essentially, assuming that the
issue of loyalist versus patriotdid play a role in this, and I
think there's a very good chancethat it did, then you start to
realize that it's essentially, basically political factions who
(46:22):
disagree with one another on a politic, on political grounds
using their kind of political stance as a means to take land
away from somebody. And that's the sort of thing
that's still very real in our world today, in the 21st
century, using our political perspectives, regardless of
which side of the aisle we're on, to, persecute and slander
(46:45):
people in our communities. So I, I think those larger
contexts really help us understand how the past connects
to the present in, in really direct and important ways.
Josh Hutchinson (46:56):
They definitely do and you know, with America
250 happening, the h, you said that the Bennington just just
celebrate commemorated, I shouldsay, the 248th anniversary of
the Battle at Bennington. So the two 50th is coming up and
now you've got this extra information about Widow Krieger.
(47:19):
And it just seems so timely to me that we're learning more
about how these political dynamics played out between
loyalists and patriots, Jamie Franklin: mm-hmm.
at that time. It's such a, a good, informative
lesson. Jamie Franklin: Yeah.
No, and I think, another projectthat I'm working on right now is
(47:41):
we're gonna be reinstalling our Battle of Bennington gallery,
this coming year. and the JosephRudd letter that I mentioned
about him fighting against his neighbors and taking them
prisoner, I've just been in the process of researching it, which
is why when Joyce sent me this muster roll that indicated that
four of Joseph Rudd's neighbors,'cause their names were on that
(48:01):
muster roll that William Krieger's name was on as a
person who died at the Battle ofBennington.
The Snyder's and Hallenbeck's names were on it as taken
prisoner. So it just happened to be happy
coincidence that these two things were going on in my mind
at the same time. So I was able to put the pieces
of the puzzle together. But that's, as you say, we're
working on the 250th right now, in terms of exhibition projects
(48:25):
here at the museum, and sometimes it's just sheer luck
that those things come across your desk at the same time and
you're able to connect the pieces.
So I was really happy with that,and I'm looking forward to being
able chat with Joyce about it, and using it as another kind of
avenue for us to continue to digdeeper and see what else we can
try and figure out about this story.
(48:46):
Remember, the third annual Pownal Witches Walk
is Saturday, September 13th at noon.
Meet up at Dean Road Bridge. Sarah Jack: Even if you're not
in the Pownal, Vermont area, youcan help memorialize Margaret
Krieger by sharing her story andfollowing the Pownal Historical
Society on Facebook to stay connected with their events and
(49:07):
research. Josh Hutchinson: Have a great
today and a beautiful tomorrow.
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