September 23, 2025 • 30 mins
Why This Crossover?
Hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack are featuring The Thing About Salem podcast on The Thing About Witch Hunts podcast to introduce our listeners to our companion 15 minute sized episode podcast! Both shows are produced by the End Witch Hunts nonprofit, and we want to make sure you don't miss out on the incredible stories we're telling about Salem's witch trials. This crossover episode gives Thing About Witch Hunts listeners a taste of the detailed historical storytelling you'll find over on The Thing About Salem.
What if the Salem witch trials could have been prevented? In this compelling crossover episode, we examine the critical turning points between January 1692 and May 1693 when different decisions could have stopped America's most notorious witch hunt in its tracks.
From the arrest of four-year-old Dorothy Good to Martha Carrier's infamous designation as "Queen of Hell," we explore how a series of escalating choices transformed a local Massachusetts crisis into colonial America's deadliest legal disaster.
Historical Turning Points
Critical moments when the Salem witch trials could have been halted
The shocking case of Dorothy Good, the youngest accused witch
How local accusations spiraled into regional hysteria
Key Historical Figures
Cotton Mather and his contradictory influence on the trials
Governor William Phips and his delayed intervention
Martha Carrier and her notorious title as "Queen of Hell"
The role of judges, ministers, and community leaders
Geographic Spread
Salem Village and Salem Town dynamics
How 45 Andover residents became entangled in accusations
The regional impact across Massachusetts Bay Colony
Legal and Social Analysis
Spectral evidence and its dangerous precedent
Court procedures that enabled the witch hunt's growth
Community tensions that fueled the accusations
This crossover episode reveals how a perfect storm of fear, superstition, and poor decision-making created one of America's darkest chapters. We examine the moments when cooler heads could have prevailed and the individuals who either fanned the flames or attempted to restore reason.
The Salem witch trials (1692-1693) resulted in the execution of 20 people and the imprisonment of hundreds more. This episode explores the human decisions behind the historical tragedy and the lessons we can learn about mass hysteria, due process, and the importance of critical thinking in times of crisis.
Colonial American history
Legal history and judicial reform
Social psychology and mass hysteria
Women's history and gender dynamics in early America
Religious history and Puritan society
True crime and historical mysteries
Salem witch trials, Massachusetts Bay Colony, Cotton Mather, spectral evidence, Dorothy Good, Martha Carrier, Governor Phips, Andover witch trials, colonial America, Puritan society, mass hysteria, historical true crime, 1692 witch hunt, Salem Village, judicial history
Join The Thing About Salem and The Thing About Witch Hunts for this special crossover episode exploring how different choices could have changed the course of American history.
This episode contains historical content about persecution, execution, and legal proceedings from the 17th century. Listener discretion advised.
Salem Witch Trials Documentary Archive and Transcription Project
Records of the Salem Witch-Hunt
The Thing About Salem Patreon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
What is the thing about Salem? It's whatever one sees as the
main point of the Salem Witch Trials or the Witch City.
It's that the people involved inthe Salem witch trials, we're
just like us. It's that fear can make
communities turn on each other, but understanding that can help
(00:20):
us do better. It's that history isn't just
States and facts, it's real people making real choices we
might face too. It's where we share fun bite
sized episodes focused on the sale witch trials in the factors
that influence them. Because these stories matter
more than ever today. Welcome to the thing about witch
(00:44):
hunts. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
I'm Sarah Jack. You're here for the thing about
witch hunts, but you get a special treat.
We recently created a second podcast called The Thing About
Salem to explore Salem history, culture, and community voices.
In this special crossover episode, we're going to play the
(01:05):
extended edition of one of the episodes we did on The Thing
About Salem, about the key moments in the Salem witch
trials. Subscribe to The Thing About
Salem on YouTube or wherever youget your podcasts and share it
with someone who needs to hear these stories too.
Just the facts, ma'am. Did you use at any time to ride
(01:28):
upon a stick or pull? Yes.
How high? Sometimes above the trees.
Do not you anoint yourselves before you fly?
No, but the devil carried us upon hand pulls.
Tell us all the truth. What kind of worship did you do?
The Devil. He bid me pray to him and serve
(01:51):
him, and he said he was a God and Lord to me.
What did he promise to give you?He said I would want nothing in
this world and that I would obtain glory with him.
Why would they hurt the village people?
The devil would set up his Kingdom there and we should have
happy days and it would then be better times for me if I obey
(02:15):
him. Did you hear the 77 witches
names called over? Yes, the devil called them.
What did he say to them? He told them obey him and do his
commands and it would be better for them and they should obtain
crowns in hell. And Goody Carrier told me the
devil said to her she should be a queen in hell.
(02:38):
Who was to be king? The minister.
Kind of man is Mr. Burroughs. A Pretty Little man, and he has
come to us sometimes in his spirit, in the shape of a cat,
and I think sometimes in his proper shape.
Do you hear the devil hurts in the shape of any person without
(02:59):
their consent? No.
Welcome to the Thing about Salem.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. And I'm Sarah Jack.
The interrogation we just reenacted was taken from the
record of the July 21st, 1692 examinations of Mary Lacey
Junior, Mary Lacey Senior and Foster Richard Carrier and
(03:20):
Andrew Carrier, and was a pivotal moment, which we'll have
more about later in the episode.We think of the witch hunt as a
runaway train fuelled by hysteria, but there were a
multitude of individual actors that had free will to change the
(03:42):
course of the events. We'll be talking about pivotal
moments in the witch trials, when a person or group could
have made a different decision and LED the affair to a more
peaceful conclusion. We'll also cover sometimes when
people did succeed in bringing down the temperature in the
room. Had these choices not been made,
(04:02):
the runaway train may have gone off the rails.
So of course, we're talking about the Salem witch trials,
which we think of as beginning in January 1692 with the
afflictions of Abigail Williams and Betty Paris.
And it lasted until May 1693, when the final court proceedings
(04:26):
were held and the final prisoners were released from
jail. There are a lot of these points
of escalations. We're going to highlight some of
our favorites. One early turning point was the
arrests of Martha Corey, RebeccaNurse, and Dorothy Good, which
took place between March 21st and March 24th.
(04:48):
Martha was arrested first on March 21st, and she was the
first church member to be accused of witchcraft.
She was a member of the Salem Village Church and yet here she
stands accused of being a witch.Then a few days later on March
24th, my 9th great grandmother, Rebecca Nurse was arrested.
(05:09):
Rebecca was the first member of the Salem Town Church to be
arrested. And the same day that Rebecca
was arrested, Dorothy Goode was jailed.
She was a four year old girl child, the daughter of Sarah
Goode. And despite her very young age,
(05:29):
she's thrown in jail. They have to make special irons
to fit around her little wrists and ankles to keep her in chains
in the festering dungeon. And all this tells us that they
weren't looking for just the usual suspects anymore.
(05:52):
If church members and little baby children not even old
enough for today kindergarten are getting accused of being
witches that hurt people, anybody is open to accusation.
The next turn of events that wascritical in escalating what was
(06:14):
happening was in April. On April 19th, Abigail Hobbs
gave a confession. Abigail, who's Sarah's favorite
confessor? She is.
Her. Stories are grand.
Abigail was the wild child of Topsfield, had a very
interesting relationship with her stepmother and had a very
(06:38):
interesting relationship with the devil, which she confessed
to on April 19th. And in her subsequent
questioning of her in jail, she elaborated.
But being from Tops Field that expanded the search radius for
which is beyond Salem Village. So that was a big piece of it
(07:03):
and this was the first confession by anyone since
Tituba had confessed on March 1st.
There's also no signs of coercion on this one.
It appears to be a voluntary confession.
Her confession was a confession of Comanitine with the devil.
(07:24):
It was a diabolical confession. Yeah.
And Abigail and her stepmother, Deliverance Hobbes, they filled
in key details about the diabolic pact and the witch's
Sabbath, how those things worked.
Yeah. And Abigail said that she gave
the devil her permission to afflict people.
(07:45):
So the devil went out in her specter, her likeness, but only
because she said that he could. And this was a big moment
because this said that the witches had to willingly allow
the devil to use their form, that the devil couldn't use
(08:08):
anybody's shape without their permission.
In other words, he couldn't appear as an innocent person.
So therefore, the spectres that were being seen by the afflicted
people were really the spectres of witches who had given the
devil their permission. So this added some cred to
(08:30):
spectral evidence, which the ministers and others were really
trying to decide. I mean, in other witch trials
even they were questioning whether a spectral form was
actually the person or if it wasthe devil impersonating them.
A very big moment in the Salem witch trials happened May 27th.
(08:54):
This was what actually led to the trial phase happening
because for months the jails hadbeen filling with witchcraft
suspects. But Governor William Phipps, the
brand new governor for the colony, he comes to Boston on
(09:14):
May 14th with a brand new charter and instructions to form
new courts. But the General Court, the
legislature of the colony, has to be the one that forms the
courts, and they don't get around to doing this until
November. So what happens in the meantime?
(09:39):
Phipps creates a special court called the Court of Oyer
Interminer, which means to hear and determine, and he appoints 9
judges to it. And they're going to start in
June. The Chief Justice is going to be
William Stoughton. He's the new Lieutenant governor
(10:00):
in this new hierarchy with the royally appointed governor.
Phipps, who Margaret Burns callsUncle Billy.
Uncle Billy was in charge of this court of warrior
interminer, and with him he had Judges Bartholomew Gedney, John
Richards, Nathaniel Salton, Stahl, Waite Winthrop, Samuel
(10:20):
Sewell, John Hathorne, Jonathan Corwin, and Peter Sargent.
Did I just hear Winthrop was oneof the judges?
Winthrop, the son of John Winthrop junior, who had been
the governor of Connecticut for many years.
And the grandson of John Winthrop Senior.
(10:41):
So this is the third generation of Winthrop that is trying
people for witchcraft in the NewWorld because both Grandpa and
father had previously been involved in witch trials in
Boston and in Hartford, CT. Yeah, and John with her senior
(11:04):
wrote notes on the very first woman hanging for witchcraft in
Hartford, which was Alice Young,and then also on Margaret Jones,
who was hanged in Boston. Tangent.
But it's it's good to think about that.
You know, again, these escalations were up against all
this historied experience of things coming to fruition where
(11:30):
women are getting executed for witchcraft.
This is that times 10. Yeah.
A lot of things had to come together for the Salem witch
trials to happen the way that they happened.
And the creation of the Court ofOyer and Terminer was a pivotal
moment in the witch trial process.
(11:52):
Because you had they waited for the regular courts to be formed
and gone through regular processes, maybe some of the
decisions would have come out a little differently about how to
what kind of evidence to admit and what procedures to follow.
Another thing about the witch trials that I think we sometimes
(12:16):
forget is that ministers and other men were doing a lot of
deliberation around the seen world and the unseen world and
how that was impacting witchcraft and who the witch
was, and if the accusations wereabout diabolical afflictions or
(12:37):
harm. And I love taking a look at what
the ministers were saying. I love taking a look at the
deliberations. I wish they would not have had
such a difficult time coming to the conclusions that they needed
to come to, but one of the significant ones is the return
(12:58):
of the ministers on June 15th. Yeah, Boston area ministers had
been asked for guidance by Governor Phipps.
He wanted to know how to handle the witch trials and
particularly what types of evidence were admissible and
would could be used as proof that witchcraft had happened.
(13:19):
So they questioned things like spectral evidence.
How do we proceed with this? This report was called The
Return of Several Ministers and it was written by Cotton Mather,
the son of Increase Mather. Yeah, an increase.
Mather had just come home from London, where he spent years
(13:40):
negotiating the new charter for the colony of Massachusetts Bay,
Which became the Province of Massachusetts Bay.
In the return, the ministers warned the justices about
relying upon spectral evidence. Even though Abigail's story was
so colorful and compelling. They were urged and not just
(14:02):
hers. Of course, a lot of the spectral
evidence was could have been very compelling and scary.
They urged the justices to avoidbulk tests for witchcraft and
suggested that the justices follow the guidelines set forth
in books by English Puritans such as Perkins and Renard.
The ministers also recommended that the justices hold their
(14:24):
proceedings in calm environments, caution them
against using spectral visions as proof of guilt because demons
could assume the image of innocent people.
And we know from comments in theexamination papers that during
the examinations of Rebecca Nurse and Dorothy Good and
(14:47):
others, it was not calm. It was not a calm environment.
The return also closed with a recommendation for the speedy
and vigorous prosecution of the witches, so contradicts itself.
(15:07):
Basically, first they're urging caution throughout the report,
but then at the end they're saying be speedy and vigorous.
So the judges, they take this return and they say, well, be
like spectral evidence. We like doing folk tests.
We do things like this touch test where if a witch touches an
(15:30):
afflicted person, the afflicted person becomes well because the
magic goes back from them to thewitch who harmed them.
And the judges continued to do those tests and to accept
spectral evidence. What if they had stopped here?
What if they'd had a different response?
Yeah, what if they What if Cotton Mather hadn't written
(15:53):
that last line about the speedy and vigorous prosecution?
What if he'd been consistent in advocating for caution?
Would there have been a peacefulend to the witch hunt?
In mid-july, there's another grand turning point, and this
one is really what expands the amount of people who are
(16:17):
descendants of those who experienced the Salem Witch
trials because things expanded to the community of Andover.
Yeah, Andover, including what istoday the separate community of
North Andover was the scene of avery heated chapter in the Salem
witch trials. The town of Andover had more
(16:39):
witchcraft accusations than any other community including Salem.
Even if you combine the Town Center and the village of Salem,
they did not have as many accusations as the little town
of Andover which was about the size of Salem village had about
500 ish people had 45 accusations by the end of the
(17:03):
witch trials. Another catalyst in the Andover
phase was the sickness of Elizabeth Phelps Ballard.
Sickness tends to be part of thestory when there's a witch
trial. For instance, the Salem witch
trials all started because of sickness in Samuel Paris's
household that spread through Salem Village, and now here
(17:27):
there's an unexplained illness in Andover.
One big element of this Elizabeth Phelps Ballard
sickness is that her husband at some point called down to Salem
Village and got some of the afflicted girls to come up and
examine his wife and determine who was bewitching her.
(17:51):
And so they came up, they saw spectres, they made accusations.
July 19th, Joseph Ballard complained against Mary Lacy
Senior and her daughter Mary Lacey junior.
This was a renewal of arrest because there'd actually been 6
quiet weeks. No warrants have been issued
(18:12):
since June 6th. And here we are, July 19th, and
we've got two people getting arrested.
Then also in Andover on July 21st and Foster confessed the
main aim of the witches was to replace Christ's Kingdom with
Satan's Kingdom. So here is a conspiracy
(18:34):
unfolding. And this conspiracy gets
elaborated on. The piece that we read at the
beginning was from the examination of Mary Lacey
Junior. During this big, they had a just
a group of suspects come in. It was Mary, her mother, Andrew
(18:54):
Carrier, and Richard Carrier being examined, and they
elaborated on A celestial Game of Thrones.
They said that Martha Carrier and George Burroughs were the
Queen and King in Hell, and theysaid that the devil did not hurt
in people's shapes without theirconsent.
(19:15):
Just confirming what Abigail Hobbes had said earlier and
making it seem like spectral evidence was real.
Now, we do know that those carrier boys were essentially
tortured 'cause I just point outbecause earlier we mentioned
that there's, there's not evidence of Abigail being
(19:38):
coerced. But with the with the boys, they
were not handled gently. No.
Andrew and Richard Carrier were bound neck to heels, which
caused blood to run out of theirnose.
They're basically you're bound up so tightly, can press
(20:01):
together and left like that for hours and hours.
So very excruciating ordeal. They didn't call it torture at
the time, but that is some torture.
Yeah, sadly, the sick Elizabeth Ballard did pass away on July
27th. Her death just reinforced
(20:25):
people's belief that she had been bewitched.
Now she's murdered by the witches, so that definitely
turns up the heat in Andover. Let's talk about those ministers
again. They kicked things up again.
Yeah, this time they actually did a solid increased Mather.
(20:48):
I don't know what took him so long to come to this conclusion
and publicly state this because he visited Salem jail.
He had been to Salem and observed some of the proceedings
first hand it, but it took him apparently months of
deliberation and writing to cometo the conclusions that he did
(21:12):
about spectral evidence and so forth.
And of course, we're talking Increase Mather.
He's the delegate to London to works with the King and the
King's men to get a new charter.He's the president of Harvard
College. He's a minister at Boston's
(21:33):
leading church, and he's the father of Cotton Mather, who
writes a different book that we'll mention a little bit is
Wonders of the Invisible World. These two books, but the men
being father and son, say that no, we're in agreement with each
(21:55):
other. They write this into the books.
We agree with each other. It's very interesting.
This important publication, called Cases of Conscience by
Increase Mather, came out on October 3rd and a report of this
publication was read to the Cambridge Assembly of Ministers
at their monthly meeting at Harvard College.
(22:18):
So they were all wanting to knowwhat does Increase have to say
about all of this? And their conclusions were read
to congregations that week. This work, Cases of Conscience,
exemplified the shift in opinions about the trials that
had happened over the summer. As we get into the fall, there
(22:40):
starts to be some people coming out against what's going on, the
way things are being handled. Increase suggested the afflicted
persons may actually be possessed, that the witch
persons are many times really possessed with evil spirits.
(23:00):
And there you have this highest trusted ministerial authority
saying that it's certain that's impactful.
And then on spectral evidence increase rights.
The devil may by divine permission appear in the shape
of innocent empires persons. So now, all the way after all
(23:27):
the hangings, he's saying maybe Rebecca didn't give permission
to the devil to go torment and Putnam senior.
I'm not bitter, exactly. Not bitter.
Yeah, it's just why did he wait so long?
He he goes on. He says in his report it were
(23:48):
better that 10 suspected witchesshould escape than that one
innocent person should be condemned.
It also said it is better that aguilty person should be absolved
than that he should, without sufficient ground of the
conviction, be condemned. Oh my gosh, I had.
I don't think I've actually considered that in light of what
(24:09):
happened in Connecticut. Were those were those voters
reading the records? Oh yes, when they decided to
absolve those accused of witchcraft, maybe they had read
cases of conscience. Yeah, also wrote.
I had rather judge a witch to bean honest woman than judge an
(24:30):
honest woman. As a witch, he's very concerned
about mistakes being made and innocent people being killed.
Do you think it would have made a difference if he'd been in
town when Mary Estie wrote her petition?
Because she was essentially saying she was an honest woman
and they were judging her as a witch.
(24:53):
I think it definitely if Increase had spoken up, because
we're he's the one who got Governor Phipps appointed as the
royal governor. He advocated for him in London,
so he had him kind of in his thrall or something.
(25:14):
He in his debt. The governor was in increased
Mathers debt for being appointedgovernor.
So he had the influence at the highest levels of government.
He knew all the ministers and all the magistrates and
justices. He was the most respected
minister in New England probablyat the time.
(25:38):
It would have made a difference if he had put his foot down and
said spectral evidence is not proof because the devil can
impersonate innocent people. I think the trials would have
just come to a screeching halt as soon as he said that.
Unless Stoughton like, did some hurried, you know, death warrant
(26:01):
writing. He would have had to scramble.
He Stoughton would have had to scramble to keep the trials
going. I think the governor would have
said, you know, Reverend Mather is right, these things have got
out of hand and it's got to stopand would have shut it down a
(26:24):
lot earlier than he did. Finally, on October 29th,
Governor Phipps shuts down the Special Court of Lawyer and
Terminer. Yeah.
One of the assistants, James Russell, so he's a member of the
legislature's upper house, the assistants.
And he asked Governor Sir William Phipps directly if the
(26:48):
court of lawyer and Terminer should stand or fall.
And Phipps replied it must fall.So we'd mentioned earlier the
Legislature established new courts in November.
That happened November 25th and the witchcraft cases that
remained were transferred to thenew Superior Court of
(27:09):
Judicature, which held sessions in 1693 in Salem, Charlestown,
Boston and Ipswich. Processed all of these other
claims. Now spectral evidence was not
allowed to be considered by the jurors, so they went through the
(27:32):
rest of the cases. Three people did get convicted,
but the governor reprieved them and basically the jails cleared
out. The last case was heard May
11th, 1693 and as soon as everyone had paid their jail
fees, the jails were cleared outof these accused witches and the
(27:54):
Salem Witch trials were basically over.
What a relief. What if he hadn't shut down that
court? What if the spectral evidence
hadn't been halted? Where would we be?
If the oyer interminer had stayed around, they would have
had another session in November.There were five women who had
(28:18):
already been convicted, who weren't executed yet, waiting to
be hanged. There was maybe 130 people
waiting to be tried in the jails, so this could have
really, really just snowballed. And instead of, you know, 25
(28:42):
casualties of the witch trials, the 19 hanged, the one pressed,
the five who passed away in jail.
If the oyer Terminer had draggedout until the last person was
prosecuted, we'd be talking about European levels of witch
honey with potentially over 100 people being killed.
(29:06):
What a roller coaster. Yeah, what a what a time to
live, have to live through such a difficult period.
And you just wonder if one thinghad happened differently in
these turning points that we talked about, what would have
happened? How could things have been
different? How good lives have been saved?
(29:29):
Join in on this discussion on our Patreon community.
We'd love to see you there and hear what you think.
Patreon.com/about Salem. Since you've enjoyed the
episode, why not subscribe to The Thing About Salem to support
us and to keep the fun coming? We've explored themes like
puppets, the Crucible, witches, Sabbaths, spectral evidence, the
(29:54):
ergot myth, and more, and we have so much more in store for
you to learn. In
betweenepisodescomeengagewithusinourpatreoncommunity@patreon.com/aboutSalem.
If you're enjoying all of this great content and you want to
know even more about witch trials and other things that are
(30:17):
considered to be spooky, join usfor our Halloween Special.
We're going to talk about witches and monsters and candy
and goblins and all of that goodstuff, so look for information
about that on it. Witch hunts.org/events.
So when do you get to hear the next episode of The Thing About
(30:38):
Salem? Every Sunday.
Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
What is the thing about Salem? It's whatever one sees as the
main point of the Salem Witch Trials or the Witch City.
It's that the people involved inthe Salem witch trials, we're
just like us. It's that fear can make
communities turn on each other, but understanding that can help
(00:20):
us do better. It's that history isn't just
States and facts, it's real people making real choices we
might face too. It's where we share fun bite
sized episodes focused on the sale witch trials in the factors
that influence them. Because these stories matter
more than ever today. Welcome to the thing about witch
(00:44):
hunts. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
I'm Sarah Jack. You're here for the thing about
witch hunts, but you get a special treat.
We recently created a second podcast called The Thing About
Salem to explore Salem history, culture, and community voices.
In this special crossover episode, we're going to play the
(01:05):
extended edition of one of the episodes we did on The Thing
About Salem, about the key moments in the Salem witch
trials. Subscribe to The Thing About
Salem on YouTube or wherever youget your podcasts and share it
with someone who needs to hear these stories too.
Just the facts, ma'am. Did you use at any time to ride
(01:28):
upon a stick or pull? Yes.
How high? Sometimes above the trees.
Do not you anoint yourselves before you fly?
No, but the devil carried us upon hand pulls.
Tell us all the truth. What kind of worship did you do?
The Devil. He bid me pray to him and serve
(01:51):
him, and he said he was a God and Lord to me.
What did he promise to give you?He said I would want nothing in
this world and that I would obtain glory with him.
Why would they hurt the village people?
The devil would set up his Kingdom there and we should have
happy days and it would then be better times for me if I obey
(02:15):
him. Did you hear the 77 witches
names called over? Yes, the devil called them.
What did he say to them? He told them obey him and do his
commands and it would be better for them and they should obtain
crowns in hell. And Goody Carrier told me the
devil said to her she should be a queen in hell.
(02:38):
Who was to be king? The minister.
Kind of man is Mr. Burroughs. A Pretty Little man, and he has
come to us sometimes in his spirit, in the shape of a cat,
and I think sometimes in his proper shape.
Do you hear the devil hurts in the shape of any person without
(02:59):
their consent? No.
Welcome to the Thing about Salem.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. And I'm Sarah Jack.
The interrogation we just reenacted was taken from the
record of the July 21st, 1692 examinations of Mary Lacey
Junior, Mary Lacey Senior and Foster Richard Carrier and
(03:20):
Andrew Carrier, and was a pivotal moment, which we'll have
more about later in the episode.We think of the witch hunt as a
runaway train fuelled by hysteria, but there were a
multitude of individual actors that had free will to change the
(03:42):
course of the events. We'll be talking about pivotal
moments in the witch trials, when a person or group could
have made a different decision and LED the affair to a more
peaceful conclusion. We'll also cover sometimes when
people did succeed in bringing down the temperature in the
room. Had these choices not been made,
(04:02):
the runaway train may have gone off the rails.
So of course, we're talking about the Salem witch trials,
which we think of as beginning in January 1692 with the
afflictions of Abigail Williams and Betty Paris.
And it lasted until May 1693, when the final court proceedings
(04:26):
were held and the final prisoners were released from
jail. There are a lot of these points
of escalations. We're going to highlight some of
our favorites. One early turning point was the
arrests of Martha Corey, RebeccaNurse, and Dorothy Good, which
took place between March 21st and March 24th.
(04:48):
Martha was arrested first on March 21st, and she was the
first church member to be accused of witchcraft.
She was a member of the Salem Village Church and yet here she
stands accused of being a witch.Then a few days later on March
24th, my 9th great grandmother, Rebecca Nurse was arrested.
(05:09):
Rebecca was the first member of the Salem Town Church to be
arrested. And the same day that Rebecca
was arrested, Dorothy Goode was jailed.
She was a four year old girl child, the daughter of Sarah
Goode. And despite her very young age,
(05:29):
she's thrown in jail. They have to make special irons
to fit around her little wrists and ankles to keep her in chains
in the festering dungeon. And all this tells us that they
weren't looking for just the usual suspects anymore.
(05:52):
If church members and little baby children not even old
enough for today kindergarten are getting accused of being
witches that hurt people, anybody is open to accusation.
The next turn of events that wascritical in escalating what was
(06:14):
happening was in April. On April 19th, Abigail Hobbs
gave a confession. Abigail, who's Sarah's favorite
confessor? She is.
Her. Stories are grand.
Abigail was the wild child of Topsfield, had a very
interesting relationship with her stepmother and had a very
(06:38):
interesting relationship with the devil, which she confessed
to on April 19th. And in her subsequent
questioning of her in jail, she elaborated.
But being from Tops Field that expanded the search radius for
which is beyond Salem Village. So that was a big piece of it
(07:03):
and this was the first confession by anyone since
Tituba had confessed on March 1st.
There's also no signs of coercion on this one.
It appears to be a voluntary confession.
Her confession was a confession of Comanitine with the devil.
(07:24):
It was a diabolical confession. Yeah.
And Abigail and her stepmother, Deliverance Hobbes, they filled
in key details about the diabolic pact and the witch's
Sabbath, how those things worked.
Yeah. And Abigail said that she gave
the devil her permission to afflict people.
(07:45):
So the devil went out in her specter, her likeness, but only
because she said that he could. And this was a big moment
because this said that the witches had to willingly allow
the devil to use their form, that the devil couldn't use
(08:08):
anybody's shape without their permission.
In other words, he couldn't appear as an innocent person.
So therefore, the spectres that were being seen by the afflicted
people were really the spectres of witches who had given the
devil their permission. So this added some cred to
(08:30):
spectral evidence, which the ministers and others were really
trying to decide. I mean, in other witch trials
even they were questioning whether a spectral form was
actually the person or if it wasthe devil impersonating them.
A very big moment in the Salem witch trials happened May 27th.
(08:54):
This was what actually led to the trial phase happening
because for months the jails hadbeen filling with witchcraft
suspects. But Governor William Phipps, the
brand new governor for the colony, he comes to Boston on
(09:14):
May 14th with a brand new charter and instructions to form
new courts. But the General Court, the
legislature of the colony, has to be the one that forms the
courts, and they don't get around to doing this until
November. So what happens in the meantime?
(09:39):
Phipps creates a special court called the Court of Oyer
Interminer, which means to hear and determine, and he appoints 9
judges to it. And they're going to start in
June. The Chief Justice is going to be
William Stoughton. He's the new Lieutenant governor
(10:00):
in this new hierarchy with the royally appointed governor.
Phipps, who Margaret Burns callsUncle Billy.
Uncle Billy was in charge of this court of warrior
interminer, and with him he had Judges Bartholomew Gedney, John
Richards, Nathaniel Salton, Stahl, Waite Winthrop, Samuel
(10:20):
Sewell, John Hathorne, Jonathan Corwin, and Peter Sargent.
Did I just hear Winthrop was oneof the judges?
Winthrop, the son of John Winthrop junior, who had been
the governor of Connecticut for many years.
And the grandson of John Winthrop Senior.
(10:41):
So this is the third generation of Winthrop that is trying
people for witchcraft in the NewWorld because both Grandpa and
father had previously been involved in witch trials in
Boston and in Hartford, CT. Yeah, and John with her senior
(11:04):
wrote notes on the very first woman hanging for witchcraft in
Hartford, which was Alice Young,and then also on Margaret Jones,
who was hanged in Boston. Tangent.
But it's it's good to think about that.
You know, again, these escalations were up against all
this historied experience of things coming to fruition where
(11:30):
women are getting executed for witchcraft.
This is that times 10. Yeah.
A lot of things had to come together for the Salem witch
trials to happen the way that they happened.
And the creation of the Court ofOyer and Terminer was a pivotal
moment in the witch trial process.
(11:52):
Because you had they waited for the regular courts to be formed
and gone through regular processes, maybe some of the
decisions would have come out a little differently about how to
what kind of evidence to admit and what procedures to follow.
Another thing about the witch trials that I think we sometimes
(12:16):
forget is that ministers and other men were doing a lot of
deliberation around the seen world and the unseen world and
how that was impacting witchcraft and who the witch
was, and if the accusations wereabout diabolical afflictions or
(12:37):
harm. And I love taking a look at what
the ministers were saying. I love taking a look at the
deliberations. I wish they would not have had
such a difficult time coming to the conclusions that they needed
to come to, but one of the significant ones is the return
(12:58):
of the ministers on June 15th. Yeah, Boston area ministers had
been asked for guidance by Governor Phipps.
He wanted to know how to handle the witch trials and
particularly what types of evidence were admissible and
would could be used as proof that witchcraft had happened.
(13:19):
So they questioned things like spectral evidence.
How do we proceed with this? This report was called The
Return of Several Ministers and it was written by Cotton Mather,
the son of Increase Mather. Yeah, an increase.
Mather had just come home from London, where he spent years
(13:40):
negotiating the new charter for the colony of Massachusetts Bay,
Which became the Province of Massachusetts Bay.
In the return, the ministers warned the justices about
relying upon spectral evidence. Even though Abigail's story was
so colorful and compelling. They were urged and not just
(14:02):
hers. Of course, a lot of the spectral
evidence was could have been very compelling and scary.
They urged the justices to avoidbulk tests for witchcraft and
suggested that the justices follow the guidelines set forth
in books by English Puritans such as Perkins and Renard.
The ministers also recommended that the justices hold their
(14:24):
proceedings in calm environments, caution them
against using spectral visions as proof of guilt because demons
could assume the image of innocent people.
And we know from comments in theexamination papers that during
the examinations of Rebecca Nurse and Dorothy Good and
(14:47):
others, it was not calm. It was not a calm environment.
The return also closed with a recommendation for the speedy
and vigorous prosecution of the witches, so contradicts itself.
(15:07):
Basically, first they're urging caution throughout the report,
but then at the end they're saying be speedy and vigorous.
So the judges, they take this return and they say, well, be
like spectral evidence. We like doing folk tests.
We do things like this touch test where if a witch touches an
(15:30):
afflicted person, the afflicted person becomes well because the
magic goes back from them to thewitch who harmed them.
And the judges continued to do those tests and to accept
spectral evidence. What if they had stopped here?
What if they'd had a different response?
Yeah, what if they What if Cotton Mather hadn't written
(15:53):
that last line about the speedy and vigorous prosecution?
What if he'd been consistent in advocating for caution?
Would there have been a peacefulend to the witch hunt?
In mid-july, there's another grand turning point, and this
one is really what expands the amount of people who are
(16:17):
descendants of those who experienced the Salem Witch
trials because things expanded to the community of Andover.
Yeah, Andover, including what istoday the separate community of
North Andover was the scene of avery heated chapter in the Salem
witch trials. The town of Andover had more
(16:39):
witchcraft accusations than any other community including Salem.
Even if you combine the Town Center and the village of Salem,
they did not have as many accusations as the little town
of Andover which was about the size of Salem village had about
500 ish people had 45 accusations by the end of the
(17:03):
witch trials. Another catalyst in the Andover
phase was the sickness of Elizabeth Phelps Ballard.
Sickness tends to be part of thestory when there's a witch
trial. For instance, the Salem witch
trials all started because of sickness in Samuel Paris's
household that spread through Salem Village, and now here
(17:27):
there's an unexplained illness in Andover.
One big element of this Elizabeth Phelps Ballard
sickness is that her husband at some point called down to Salem
Village and got some of the afflicted girls to come up and
examine his wife and determine who was bewitching her.
(17:51):
And so they came up, they saw spectres, they made accusations.
July 19th, Joseph Ballard complained against Mary Lacy
Senior and her daughter Mary Lacey junior.
This was a renewal of arrest because there'd actually been 6
quiet weeks. No warrants have been issued
(18:12):
since June 6th. And here we are, July 19th, and
we've got two people getting arrested.
Then also in Andover on July 21st and Foster confessed the
main aim of the witches was to replace Christ's Kingdom with
Satan's Kingdom. So here is a conspiracy
(18:34):
unfolding. And this conspiracy gets
elaborated on. The piece that we read at the
beginning was from the examination of Mary Lacey
Junior. During this big, they had a just
a group of suspects come in. It was Mary, her mother, Andrew
(18:54):
Carrier, and Richard Carrier being examined, and they
elaborated on A celestial Game of Thrones.
They said that Martha Carrier and George Burroughs were the
Queen and King in Hell, and theysaid that the devil did not hurt
in people's shapes without theirconsent.
(19:15):
Just confirming what Abigail Hobbes had said earlier and
making it seem like spectral evidence was real.
Now, we do know that those carrier boys were essentially
tortured 'cause I just point outbecause earlier we mentioned
that there's, there's not evidence of Abigail being
(19:38):
coerced. But with the with the boys, they
were not handled gently. No.
Andrew and Richard Carrier were bound neck to heels, which
caused blood to run out of theirnose.
They're basically you're bound up so tightly, can press
(20:01):
together and left like that for hours and hours.
So very excruciating ordeal. They didn't call it torture at
the time, but that is some torture.
Yeah, sadly, the sick Elizabeth Ballard did pass away on July
27th. Her death just reinforced
(20:25):
people's belief that she had been bewitched.
Now she's murdered by the witches, so that definitely
turns up the heat in Andover. Let's talk about those ministers
again. They kicked things up again.
Yeah, this time they actually did a solid increased Mather.
(20:48):
I don't know what took him so long to come to this conclusion
and publicly state this because he visited Salem jail.
He had been to Salem and observed some of the proceedings
first hand it, but it took him apparently months of
deliberation and writing to cometo the conclusions that he did
(21:12):
about spectral evidence and so forth.
And of course, we're talking Increase Mather.
He's the delegate to London to works with the King and the
King's men to get a new charter.He's the president of Harvard
College. He's a minister at Boston's
(21:33):
leading church, and he's the father of Cotton Mather, who
writes a different book that we'll mention a little bit is
Wonders of the Invisible World. These two books, but the men
being father and son, say that no, we're in agreement with each
(21:55):
other. They write this into the books.
We agree with each other. It's very interesting.
This important publication, called Cases of Conscience by
Increase Mather, came out on October 3rd and a report of this
publication was read to the Cambridge Assembly of Ministers
at their monthly meeting at Harvard College.
(22:18):
So they were all wanting to knowwhat does Increase have to say
about all of this? And their conclusions were read
to congregations that week. This work, Cases of Conscience,
exemplified the shift in opinions about the trials that
had happened over the summer. As we get into the fall, there
(22:40):
starts to be some people coming out against what's going on, the
way things are being handled. Increase suggested the afflicted
persons may actually be possessed, that the witch
persons are many times really possessed with evil spirits.
(23:00):
And there you have this highest trusted ministerial authority
saying that it's certain that's impactful.
And then on spectral evidence increase rights.
The devil may by divine permission appear in the shape
of innocent empires persons. So now, all the way after all
(23:27):
the hangings, he's saying maybe Rebecca didn't give permission
to the devil to go torment and Putnam senior.
I'm not bitter, exactly. Not bitter.
Yeah, it's just why did he wait so long?
He he goes on. He says in his report it were
(23:48):
better that 10 suspected witchesshould escape than that one
innocent person should be condemned.
It also said it is better that aguilty person should be absolved
than that he should, without sufficient ground of the
conviction, be condemned. Oh my gosh, I had.
I don't think I've actually considered that in light of what
(24:09):
happened in Connecticut. Were those were those voters
reading the records? Oh yes, when they decided to
absolve those accused of witchcraft, maybe they had read
cases of conscience. Yeah, also wrote.
I had rather judge a witch to bean honest woman than judge an
(24:30):
honest woman. As a witch, he's very concerned
about mistakes being made and innocent people being killed.
Do you think it would have made a difference if he'd been in
town when Mary Estie wrote her petition?
Because she was essentially saying she was an honest woman
and they were judging her as a witch.
(24:53):
I think it definitely if Increase had spoken up, because
we're he's the one who got Governor Phipps appointed as the
royal governor. He advocated for him in London,
so he had him kind of in his thrall or something.
(25:14):
He in his debt. The governor was in increased
Mathers debt for being appointedgovernor.
So he had the influence at the highest levels of government.
He knew all the ministers and all the magistrates and
justices. He was the most respected
minister in New England probablyat the time.
(25:38):
It would have made a difference if he had put his foot down and
said spectral evidence is not proof because the devil can
impersonate innocent people. I think the trials would have
just come to a screeching halt as soon as he said that.
Unless Stoughton like, did some hurried, you know, death warrant
(26:01):
writing. He would have had to scramble.
He Stoughton would have had to scramble to keep the trials
going. I think the governor would have
said, you know, Reverend Mather is right, these things have got
out of hand and it's got to stopand would have shut it down a
(26:24):
lot earlier than he did. Finally, on October 29th,
Governor Phipps shuts down the Special Court of Lawyer and
Terminer. Yeah.
One of the assistants, James Russell, so he's a member of the
legislature's upper house, the assistants.
And he asked Governor Sir William Phipps directly if the
(26:48):
court of lawyer and Terminer should stand or fall.
And Phipps replied it must fall.So we'd mentioned earlier the
Legislature established new courts in November.
That happened November 25th and the witchcraft cases that
remained were transferred to thenew Superior Court of
(27:09):
Judicature, which held sessions in 1693 in Salem, Charlestown,
Boston and Ipswich. Processed all of these other
claims. Now spectral evidence was not
allowed to be considered by the jurors, so they went through the
(27:32):
rest of the cases. Three people did get convicted,
but the governor reprieved them and basically the jails cleared
out. The last case was heard May
11th, 1693 and as soon as everyone had paid their jail
fees, the jails were cleared outof these accused witches and the
(27:54):
Salem Witch trials were basically over.
What a relief. What if he hadn't shut down that
court? What if the spectral evidence
hadn't been halted? Where would we be?
If the oyer interminer had stayed around, they would have
had another session in November.There were five women who had
(28:18):
already been convicted, who weren't executed yet, waiting to
be hanged. There was maybe 130 people
waiting to be tried in the jails, so this could have
really, really just snowballed. And instead of, you know, 25
(28:42):
casualties of the witch trials, the 19 hanged, the one pressed,
the five who passed away in jail.
If the oyer Terminer had draggedout until the last person was
prosecuted, we'd be talking about European levels of witch
honey with potentially over 100 people being killed.
(29:06):
What a roller coaster. Yeah, what a what a time to
live, have to live through such a difficult period.
And you just wonder if one thinghad happened differently in
these turning points that we talked about, what would have
happened? How could things have been
different? How good lives have been saved?
(29:29):
Join in on this discussion on our Patreon community.
We'd love to see you there and hear what you think.
Patreon.com/about Salem. Since you've enjoyed the
episode, why not subscribe to The Thing About Salem to support
us and to keep the fun coming? We've explored themes like
puppets, the Crucible, witches, Sabbaths, spectral evidence, the
(29:54):
ergot myth, and more, and we have so much more in store for
you to learn. In
betweenepisodescomeengagewithusinourpatreoncommunity@patreon.com/aboutSalem.
If you're enjoying all of this great content and you want to
know even more about witch trials and other things that are
(30:17):
considered to be spooky, join usfor our Halloween Special.
We're going to talk about witches and monsters and candy
and goblins and all of that goodstuff, so look for information
about that on it. Witch hunts.org/events.
So when do you get to hear the next episode of The Thing About
(30:38):
Salem? Every Sunday.
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