March 6, 2025 • 29 mins
Are you looking for a Third Growth Option ℠ ?
Growth isn't just about getting bigger—it's about getting better. This episode explores how blending expertise with entrepreneurial energy can lead to more meaningful business outcomes.
We cover:
- Balancing structure with flexibility
- Leveraging VIP clients to strengthen your foundation
- How culture attracts the right clients
- Why bigger isn't always better
- Building trust through authentic communication
Always growing.
Benno Duenkelsbuehler
CEO & Chief Sherpa of (re)ALIGN
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, welcome to the third Growth Officer Podcast,
where we talk about all thingsgrowth yes, even and especially
those hard parts where you shedsome skin and pick yourself up
by the bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth Sherpa and OG Hashtag
Growth Nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm Cara Williams.
I'm the owner of the MarketingCollective and I am joining you
today from Cincinnati Ohio.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hey, cara, I am so happy to have you here.
My name is Benno third GrowthOption Podcast host.
All right, got that off mychest.
Welcome to our podcast.
You and I have known each otherfor many years.
We're in the same Vistage group, so we have shared each other's
.
You know deep professionalsecrets, secrets, and we're
(01:01):
going to talk a little bit onthis podcast around.
How do you balance as anentrepreneur, how do you balance
sort of focusing on and yourown expertise as well, as you
know just how do you focus ingeneral?
That's an oxymoron.
How do you focus on your own oryour team members?
(01:22):
Expertise versusentrepreneurial energy, which is
sort of the opposite offocusing right?
So you and I.
So you have been anentrepreneur for 11 years, me
for 15 years.
Both of us, you know, grew upclimbing the greasy ladder of
success in corporate america.
You have, um, you're, like yousaid, your owner, chief client
(01:45):
strategist of the marketingcollective, um and uh.
Let's start with what?
Your definition of expert focusversus entrepreneurial energy?
Not definition, maybe.
Just how do you think aboutthose two?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
yeah, thanks, it's a great question.
So.
So I think of energy andentrepreneurial focus in a
couple different buckets.
You mentioned me as a businessowner, my team, but certainly
our clients.
Some of our clients areentrepreneurs, some of our
clients are not.
They have very different levelsof energy, of focus, of how
they approach things, how theydo things.
(02:24):
Some come with a very standard,rigid.
This is our process and this iswhere you fit.
Others are hiring us becausethey don't have process.
They don't know how to createprocess.
They need assistance with thatprocess.
So I think you have to bring adifferent level of expertise and
talent to each of thosesituations and I think, first
and foremost, it starts withlistening and being a really
(02:46):
good listener and making surethat you're understanding the
needs of the client, the needsof the team, and then you have
to balance that with the needsof the business, which that gets
to the part you were talkingabout, benno.
The needs of the business in anentrepreneurial type environment
are continued growth, continuedimprovement, constant.
How do we get better?
How are we the best at gettingbetter?
(03:08):
Consistently, over and overtime, and sometimes you get team
members that are very expert intheir area.
They want to stay in that lane.
They're really good at it.
But that doesn't jive with thatentrepreneurial nature of
running a small business andneeding to be able to say, yes,
you're fantastic in this place,but we have to continue to grow
(03:28):
and expand and do some leapingin some other places and
sometimes it's just a lot ofjuggling and it can get really
tiring trying to figure out howmuch process is good process and
how much of it is kind ofpulling that entrepreneurial
spirit into the bar.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
When does it become bureaucracy, right, absolutely?
I sort of look at process.
You know there's cowboy cultureand then there's bureaucracy.
Yeah, you know those are sortof the two extremes and you know
you have.
If you don't have enoughprocess, it's kind of cowboy
culture.
If you have too much process,it's bureaucracy.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And it's interesting, there are folks on my team that
are really smart, unbelievablyintelligent folks, but they want
that process.
Making the decision without theprocess is very challenging for
them, and then I naturally amalmost the opposite.
Right, I'll build my ownprocess.
As I go, I'll look foropportunities to consistently
(04:26):
change the process.
That constant changing of theprocess can be very draining for
them.
So really trying to understandwhat type of leader are they,
where are they coming from, andadjusting how I'm working
through that is a constant.
But for my business itself, forthe Marketing Collective,
there's no question that thatentrepreneur spirit has to
(04:47):
maintain.
We're too small and we willstart really falling behind if
we don't constantly look forwhat's next.
What's next and how do weimprove?
How do we grow?
How do we learn, how do welisten?
How do we do all of thosethings better?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
So you and I both.
So you run a marketing agency,I run a growth agency.
Both of our companies aretrying to help clients grow,
maybe in slightly different ways.
We sort of go into buildingadjacent product categories for
clients or helping them accessnew channels of distribution, in
(05:22):
addition to also just makingthe go-to-market process.
I think that's a little bit ofthe crossover.
You guys are always about thego-to-market process, but you
and I both, as the owners of ouragency, we both have VIP
clients.
I'll call them where we aremore than just you know, where
(05:52):
you are more than just themarketing strategist for that
client and I'm more than justthe growth Sherpa for my VIP
client.
And I think the reason we havethose VIP relationships just
because we have somehow figuredout how to balance right our
expertise and focus.
But then, also, being sort of aon the way to work this morning
(06:15):
I was thinking we're sort ofthe consigliere's of these two
companies, of our two VIPclients.
Is that how you would view yourVIP client?
Because we wear a lot of shoes,right, I mean we wear a lot of
hats, sorry, not shoes, hats.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Our yes.
So our model is a little bitdifferent than some marketing
agencies in that we will take onan outsource CMO role.
So if someone does not have anin-house chief marketing officer
, we'll take that role and withthat we can own strategy,
budgeting, execution, thosethings and we can own the whole
picture, not just the piece thatthe marketing collective is
(06:54):
doing.
What that allows is for us toreally become very close, very
intimate with our clients,understand their business
incredibly well and be a memberof their leadership team, and in
some cases that works just fine.
We do the work.
We still stay in the marketinglane.
We serve as that CMO or weserve as an executional partner.
(07:15):
And then, in the case thatyou're talking about, benno,
there have been cases wherewe've had clients for 10 years
and when you have them for 10years in a CMO role, boy, do
those lines start to blurbetween are you the owner of the
marketing collective or are youmy chief operating officer?
What does that look like?
And I welcome that.
(07:36):
I know I'm succeeding when theythink I'm an internal employee
and not somebody external thatthey have to call and wonder is
this included in my contract ornot?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
So for me it's always exciting I joke that COVID
messed up my perfect recordbecause I had been invited to
every client's holiday partyeveryone, and it was an employee
based party, right, and theywould have their employees there
.
But we felt like employees, wewere part of the team.
But with that, just like atmost businesses, there's very
(08:09):
few marketing folks that areinside at a company that have a
very clear, defined role.
Many of them start taking onchief of staff operations.
Many of them start taking onrunning the board operations,
doing events that lead tostrategic planning.
You know, roles are inherentlyshrinking, getting tougher.
(08:30):
People are putting more andmore on their C-suite executives
and those teams to executearound it.
It seems true if I am a chiefmarketing officer, even if it is
part-time or if it is full-timein a company that happens to be
a client, our lines start toblur more and more and more, and
that's what's really happenedwith my VIP clients.
(08:50):
Is I think of myself as them somuch that there really isn't a
line, and that's okay.
That works really well.
I also think that I'm coming infrom a very different
perspective.
I'm seeing so many differentindustries, so many other
clients that we're still workingon that's bringing in for them.
But still having thatentrepreneurial spirit that we
(09:10):
talked about really relatesoftentimes to those founders
that founded a company 30, 40years ago and they want that to
maintain.
They want that in their culture.
So with us coming on and doingthat, it really allows us to
bring a perspective and, I think, a level of energy that you're
getting the best of both worlds.
You're getting that externalperspective but you're getting
(09:33):
somebody that knows you insideand out, as an internal coworker
, an internal employee, and Ithink that really gives us an
opportunity to give them adifferent level of expertise
than we can give to otherclients and so most outside
service providers right agencies, you know, rely on the SOW
(09:56):
right, the statement of work,the proposal, and on the one
hand, I get it.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
You have to have a clear charter with you know, to
start with right.
Okay, kara, you're going to be,you and your team are going to
do X, y and Z right.
And then, if they come, whenthey come up with A, B, you know
, a and B and L, you're like,well, that's not X, y and Z.
On the receiving end, thepeople that you know, the client
(10:22):
that signs up for a statementof work in SOW, they hate it,
right, because now it's likethey feel like we put them into
a straitjacket, that we can onlyhelp them with this.
So I always look foropportunities where we can build
trust by, as you said,listening to what else do you
(10:43):
need?
Can we help with this?
Can we help with that?
And sometimes, if it's outsideof the statement of work or it's
outside, if it becomes abusive,right, where we're signing up
for X, y and Z at you know, andeach of those three things is
(11:04):
worth $1.
So it's a $3 thing and nowwe're doing $26 worth of work
for every letter in the alphabetright, but we're still only
getting paid $3.
Of course, that's a differentsituation, but I think to start
with, I always embrace theopportunity to do more because
(11:25):
oftentimes it can create fivetimes more value than either
client or I had even anticipatedat the beginning.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, it's such an interesting process because nine
times out of 10, I'm developinga statement of work when I know
the absolute least about thatclient, so I might understand
the project but, I don'tunderstand them, I don't it's
usually at the beginning of therelationship.
Sometimes it's RFP driven right.
I only know what isn't workingfor them typically not what is
(11:57):
and so you're trying todetermine how do I best solve
their needs when you know theabsolute least about it.
So one thing I always do is saywe're going to revisit the
statement of work at the end of30 days, because it is quite
possible that I'm going to learnso much about you in that
timeframe that we're just goingto make different decisions
about how we work together andwhat you think might be the
challenge may not really be thechallenge.
(12:19):
The other piece on those SOWs Ireally wish there was a better
way to do it, and sometimes wedo sign up.
There is, there is Sometimes wesign up for an hours engagement
, a project-based engagement.
That really doesn't have thosedetailed parameters around it,
(12:40):
and sometimes it's a little bitscary.
But the reality is, if you everhave to go back and look at the
statement of work and say, well,let me see if that was in my
statement of work, you don'thave a good relationship with
that client and that statementof work probably isn't going to
be lasting.
So what's the real value?
I feel like it's artificialinsurance, because, whether it's
in there or not, we're going todo our best to deliver, and
(13:02):
deliver 120%.
We're going to do our best tobe as flexible as possible.
We're going to try to lean inand give you the best
recommendations as possible, butnine times out of 10, at least
in the marketing world peoplewant to start with that SOP.
They want to start with.
I want you to give me thispricing and that's how I'm going
to judge you and that's goingto be the basis of our
relationship to start, and Iunderstand that.
(13:24):
But it just isn't the best wayto really do the work and to
figure out what is needed.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
You have to tell us Benno.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Tell me, benno, what do you say is the growth Sherpa?
Because that is a constant, Iwould say pervasive challenge in
this industry.
People will come in to me andthey'll already have statements
of work and I'll say that Iwouldn't even do those things.
Why do they know the answersright now?
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Right, right, so, and you and I have talked about
this in the Vistage group In theearly days, you know, I started
Realign in 2009, 15 years ago,almost 16 years ago.
How crazy is that?
And I used to be so excitedwhen you know, I would have a
prospective client and we wouldget to the point where they're
(14:11):
like you know what, can youwrite us a proposal which is
essentially a statement of work?
Right, and I would say, yay,now I can write a statement of
work, a proposal, and a coupleyears into it, I started
answering differently.
I said no, I cannot.
Can write a statement of work,a proposal, and a couple of
years into it, I startedanswering differently.
I said no, I cannot write you aproposal, I cannot write you a
statement of work until I do anevaluation.
Let me spend one week doing agrowth evaluation, where I'm
(14:34):
going to do a deep dive.
Spend half of that week askingall these questions, looking at
income statements, operationalstatements, having stakeholder
interviews.
All of that week asking allthese questions, looking at
income statements, operationalstatements, having stakeholder
interviews, all of that.
And then the second half ofthat week doing the evaluation.
I'll tell them hey, here's thesituation that I think you're in
good, bad or ugly.
Here's the opportunity that Ithink we can go after and we can
(14:57):
solve for.
And number three here are theactivities that we need to do.
Those activities end up in theproposal statement of work right
, but now I charge a fixedamount for that growth
evaluation before I ever write astatement of work on a proposal
.
So I think that's something.
I mean, that's something that'sworked well for us.
(15:17):
But let's talk a little bitmore about you talked about
helping your clients get betterand in a conversation we had
prior to jumping on this podcast, you had talked about bigger.
Bigger is not always better,but better is always better.
Talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, it's always interesting.
I don't have any desire to addzeros behind the.
If we were 170.
And I think that is my attemptat focusing on.
(16:08):
Better is better, but bigger isnot necessarily.
Same is true with clients,large clients or large client
accounts if the profitabilityisn't there, if it's taking all
of your resources, if it'spulling your team down, if
they're just not a good fit foryour team culturally, it doesn't
matter how big they are.
They're not going to help yourteam get better.
(16:28):
You're going to struggle tohelp them get better.
So we consistently evaluate upagainst is this going to make us
a stronger agency by takingthis account, and is this the
right fit for us?
I can point to a handful oftimes that it really didn't work
out and if I would have beenhonest, I knew going into it it
(16:49):
probably wasn't going to workout.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
But you get this notion of you get excited about
it, you get excited, you getpulled in, you can help everyone
or this is going to be a fasttrack into a new area.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
This is going to get us in and break us in in this
place.
And then you know, three monthslater I knew I didn't want to
go that direction, I didn't evenwant those additional.
Now they're referring peoplethat don't make sense for us.
But you know, you get pulledinto all of that because I think
as a society sometimes we thinkthat bigger is better, right,
and if you have this many, ifyou have two, four is great, but
(17:23):
eight is really where you wantto be, and I just really pull
myself back and say that's notthe goal.
The goal is to have the mostimpact we can have on the
smallest number of folks,because that's where we're going
to have the greater impact, andto build those relationships,
to build those VIP clients, tobuild those people that truly
live in the trust space.
And that's not a commodity,that's not something that we can
(17:46):
always just churn, churn, churn.
And so that's really why thefocus is we have to be the best
at getting better, we have tolook at ways to get better, and
that doesn't necessarily equateto getting the next largest
client or adding this manypeople.
It really is focusing on whatare you good at and drive your
(18:07):
energies there.
And that's again back to thebalance and the energy and all
those things that we started theconversation.
To me, all of that comestogether in terms of what do you
want to accomplish and whereare you going to go, and for me
it is not necessarily reallyaround size.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Seth Godin talks about.
He uses the term smallestviable audience.
Yes, and I love that.
I love him Right.
I mean that's, yeah, I need toget purple, Maybe.
I need to get purple glasseslike he has Now I want I have my
(18:49):
own purple cow.
I think that was the name ofone of his books.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
One of his books?
Speaker 1 (18:52):
yes, the concept of smallest viable audience in my
business, and also when we workwith clients, helps us to really
focus in on what, like in mybusiness, it's what are we
really good at and what are thetypes of clients that we really
(19:14):
love, that really love us, andlet's talk to them as
prospective clients right, let'smake them bigger as current
clients, but that to me, is sortof the balance of expert focus.
Right, I'm focusing in on mysmallest viable audience, but
(19:36):
that also creates a lot ofentrepreneurial energy for us,
right, because now I'm not beingbogged down by, you know, that
bigger audience that I thoughtyou know, I thought I wanted to
have 170 Sherpas.
I don't.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Right, right Well.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I'm perfectly happy with a dozen.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Well, I'm perfectly happy with a dozen.
I'm sure, Benno, you've heardthis a million times, but you're
talking to a client or a newprospect, and you want to
understand more of who's goingto buy their service, who's
going to buy their product whodo?
they want to be their customersand the answer is everyone.
And it makes me cringe everytime.
(20:19):
No, it's not rocket sciencehere.
No one serves everyone, and itjust isn't.
And it's the reverse of the way.
I want my clients to think.
It is the absolute reverse.
And so having thoseconversations around what really
is our sweet spot and how do wedifferentiate, that really
(20:43):
makes all the difference in theworld.
I think when you're trying todevelop some of your marketing
strategy and, I would assume,your growth strategy too, but,
it's an interesting conversationto have, because so many folks
think they start defending wecan do anything.
We can do anything.
So-and-so needs it too andso-and-so might buy this.
And we're not selling to thisgroup, but they may buy it in
the future and they'll startgetting very defensive around
(21:03):
that.
And the reality is you don'thave the resources, you don't
have the energy, you don't havethe expertise and you really
don't want to sell to everyone.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
When you're everything to everybody, you're
nothing to nobody.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
I believe that Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And I think it also and you and I had talked about
this in the past too that youknow you can't really
effectively market to theexternal world unless you have a
really clear idea on theinternal culture and talk a
little bit about how.
And that plays right into thissmallest viable audience idea,
right, unless you have a verysuper focused view on who is
(21:43):
your external market smallestviable audience.
You could only develop that ifyou have a really clear
understanding of the internalculture that can serve that
external small audience.
How do you get your arms aroundyour client's culture as it
relates to helping to marketthem?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I would say it's a fantastic question.
One of the things I would sayis I joked before, but I was
being serious when I said wetake clients or we take
assignments and three monthslater they're not working as
well as I had hoped and I knewin my heart they probably
wouldn't, I find that so manybusiness owners and so many
leaders they're not being honestwith themselves or they're not
(22:23):
being honest with their teamsbecause they are chasing
different goals.
So the annual operating plansays we need X.
So I'm just going to chase andget X and keep churning and
bringing it in when I know thatwhat we're really good at is
this over here and I need torevise the plan to match.
What we're really good at isthis over here and I need to
revise the plan to match whatwe're really good at.
Most folks in marketing willtalk about a customer journey.
(22:44):
They'll talk about you know,how does your customer make
decisions?
Where are their pain points?
What do they do?
We like to do that, oftentimesinternally, and understand how
people are making decisionsabout working there, why they're
working there, what they'regood at, why they were hired,
what they were hired to do, whypeople enjoy them, why people
come back to them.
That oftentimes will startgetting at what differentiates
(23:07):
you from your competitors.
Another one of the things thatmakes my eye roll is when I say
how are you different?
And people say it's the peopleand they can't give you anything
else.
Right, our people are better.
You have to tell me how we'refamily, that's fine.
Right.
Tell me how they're better, andsometimes they really are right
.
Sometimes you have thesephenomenal teams that your teams
(23:28):
make things happen.
You know the process can be thesame across different
industries or differentcompanies, but the team can
really set you apart.
But you have to prove that, youhave to define that.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
And you have to define it.
You have to define it right.
Yes, Because usually peopleare….
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Well, all impartial people, they're kind of too lazy
.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Sometimes people are too lazy to define what makes
you….
So what makes you different?
What makes you better?
Why do you have the best people?
Is it because they are the mosteducated, or the most
entrepreneurial, or the mostopen-minded or the hardest
working?
What combination of secretsauce do you value?
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yes, absolutely true, absolutely true, and that helps
you understand who you're goingto pair the most with and where
that attraction and that fit isgoing to happen.
And if you think about.
Again back to that firstconversation or early starter
conversation we had on this call.
When you're thinking aboutentrepreneurialism, you think of
all those synergies that kindof happen as you're building a
(24:36):
company, as you're building aculture, all the people you meet
along the way who work with youand make and help you, whether
they're other vendors, otherpartners, mentors.
That's all about that fit andthat's all about understanding
where you're the best and whereyou should align your energy.
That still rings true whenyou're trying to attract clients
and who you're working with andhow.
(24:57):
So one of the things that Ijoke about but we have several
clients in the constructionspace One of the reasons I think
we do well with construction isbecause we're not really in my
opinion.
We don't do a lot of BS, wedon't do a lot of fluff.
We don't do a lot of I've gotan aha idea marketing moment for
you that's going to turn thingsinto millions.
(25:17):
We're much more.
This is the process.
I'm going to talk to youstraight.
I'm going to give you if I cantell you in 10 words.
I'm using 10, not 15, not 20.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
There's no consultant speak.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
That really just aligns well to that industry.
It aligns to how they're usedto speaking what they're used to
seeing.
They kind of inherently thinkeverybody is full of BS anyway.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So when you cut through it and say I'm not
giving you that, If it's notbricks and mortar and concrete
and steel, right then.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Right, right, then it's probably not right, and so
that just has attracted thattype of individuals in that
industry.
Well, we saw that, so westarted thinking, well, what
other industries really alignwith that?
We don't have to stay inconstruction.
We do marketing across alldifferent types of B2B companies
and we do primarily work justin the B2B space.
(26:06):
But we work with companies allacross the country that are in
different industries, indifferent areas.
Does manufacturing fit that?
Does technology fit that?
Where do those other companiescome?
Now, I'm not writing out therein my marketing.
I want to work with companiesthat don't like BS, but I know
it about myself.
I'm honest about the industriesthat will look for that, the
ones that are looking for alarge team, a lot of pre-sculpt
(26:31):
type creative, a lot ofworkshopping of the creative and
all that.
There is nothing wrong with anyof that, it just typically
isn't our approach and it isn'tthen our clients.
So I mean we can do that ifsomebody wants that, but that's
not usually us.
And so I think, first andforemost, being true to yourself
(26:53):
and understanding who you areand really spending the time to
think about that and be honestabout it really helps.
Then align with the cultures ofyour clients.
That are going to be those fits, and that's how I've had
clients stay for 10 years.
I don't think the work we dofor them is vastly different
than the work we've done forothers.
We just have built this bondand this relationship and this
(27:14):
ability to be honest,transparent and trustworthy
enough to say, hey, I think thisis really going to work for you
, we need to do it, and it'sentirely outside of any scope
we've ever talked about or hey,I thought this was a good idea,
we've been doing it for sixmonths.
I don't think it's not.
It's not like I've got to bitethe bullet and we've got to take
(27:36):
it and I've got to make this upand I've got to readjust, but
those are those honestconversations you have with
people you like.
Yes, yes, you have thoseconversations with people you
like, you have the relationshipwith and you fix it right, as
opposed to you know.
Just, I'm not in this fortransactional type work.
We can get work all the time.
I want to work with people Ienjoy working with on my team
(27:59):
and clients we enjoy workingwith, and that's one of the
brilliant sides of running yourown companies you get to pick
that right.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
That's a brilliant part, so you get to pick that
and own that, and it ends upthen being a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Kara, thank you so much for jumping on this episode
together.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
If folks wanted to reach out to you one-on-one,
where's a good place they canfind you?
Oh, I'm certainly on LinkedInand email as well.
So Cara Clark Williams onLinkedIn website is
marketing-collectivecom and myemail is Cara with a K K A R A
at marketing-collectivecom.
So those would be great ways Iwould love to talk to folks.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, cara.
This was great.
Thank you, we'll have to doanother episode.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Absolutely.
Appreciate it very much.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
You bet.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of TGO Podcast.
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, Benno, host ofTGO podcast, there as well.
(29:07):
Just email, benno B-E-N-N-O atrealign4resultscom.
Let's keep growing you.
Hey, welcome to the third Growth Officer Podcast,
where we talk about all thingsgrowth yes, even and especially
those hard parts where you shedsome skin and pick yourself up
by the bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth Sherpa and OG Hashtag
Growth Nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm Cara Williams.
I'm the owner of the MarketingCollective and I am joining you
today from Cincinnati Ohio.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hey, cara, I am so happy to have you here.
My name is Benno third GrowthOption Podcast host.
All right, got that off mychest.
Welcome to our podcast.
You and I have known each otherfor many years.
We're in the same Vistage group, so we have shared each other's
.
You know deep professionalsecrets, secrets, and we're
(01:01):
going to talk a little bit onthis podcast around.
How do you balance as anentrepreneur, how do you balance
sort of focusing on and yourown expertise as well, as you
know just how do you focus ingeneral?
That's an oxymoron.
How do you focus on your own oryour team members?
(01:22):
Expertise versusentrepreneurial energy, which is
sort of the opposite offocusing right?
So you and I.
So you have been anentrepreneur for 11 years, me
for 15 years.
Both of us, you know, grew upclimbing the greasy ladder of
success in corporate america.
You have, um, you're, like yousaid, your owner, chief client
(01:45):
strategist of the marketingcollective, um and uh.
Let's start with what?
Your definition of expert focusversus entrepreneurial energy?
Not definition, maybe.
Just how do you think aboutthose two?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
yeah, thanks, it's a great question.
So.
So I think of energy andentrepreneurial focus in a
couple different buckets.
You mentioned me as a businessowner, my team, but certainly
our clients.
Some of our clients areentrepreneurs, some of our
clients are not.
They have very different levelsof energy, of focus, of how
they approach things, how theydo things.
(02:24):
Some come with a very standard,rigid.
This is our process and this iswhere you fit.
Others are hiring us becausethey don't have process.
They don't know how to createprocess.
They need assistance with thatprocess.
So I think you have to bring adifferent level of expertise and
talent to each of thosesituations and I think, first
and foremost, it starts withlistening and being a really
(02:46):
good listener and making surethat you're understanding the
needs of the client, the needsof the team, and then you have
to balance that with the needsof the business, which that gets
to the part you were talkingabout, benno.
The needs of the business in anentrepreneurial type environment
are continued growth, continuedimprovement, constant.
How do we get better?
How are we the best at gettingbetter?
(03:08):
Consistently, over and overtime, and sometimes you get team
members that are very expert intheir area.
They want to stay in that lane.
They're really good at it.
But that doesn't jive with thatentrepreneurial nature of
running a small business andneeding to be able to say, yes,
you're fantastic in this place,but we have to continue to grow
(03:28):
and expand and do some leapingin some other places and
sometimes it's just a lot ofjuggling and it can get really
tiring trying to figure out howmuch process is good process and
how much of it is kind ofpulling that entrepreneurial
spirit into the bar.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
When does it become bureaucracy, right, absolutely?
I sort of look at process.
You know there's cowboy cultureand then there's bureaucracy.
Yeah, you know those are sortof the two extremes and you know
you have.
If you don't have enoughprocess, it's kind of cowboy
culture.
If you have too much process,it's bureaucracy.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And it's interesting, there are folks on my team that
are really smart, unbelievablyintelligent folks, but they want
that process.
Making the decision without theprocess is very challenging for
them, and then I naturally amalmost the opposite.
Right, I'll build my ownprocess.
As I go, I'll look foropportunities to consistently
(04:26):
change the process.
That constant changing of theprocess can be very draining for
them.
So really trying to understandwhat type of leader are they,
where are they coming from, andadjusting how I'm working
through that is a constant.
But for my business itself, forthe Marketing Collective,
there's no question that thatentrepreneur spirit has to
(04:47):
maintain.
We're too small and we willstart really falling behind if
we don't constantly look forwhat's next.
What's next and how do weimprove?
How do we grow?
How do we learn, how do welisten?
How do we do all of thosethings better?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
So you and I both.
So you run a marketing agency,I run a growth agency.
Both of our companies aretrying to help clients grow,
maybe in slightly different ways.
We sort of go into buildingadjacent product categories for
clients or helping them accessnew channels of distribution, in
(05:22):
addition to also just makingthe go-to-market process.
I think that's a little bit ofthe crossover.
You guys are always about thego-to-market process, but you
and I both, as the owners of ouragency, we both have VIP
clients.
I'll call them where we aremore than just you know, where
(05:52):
you are more than just themarketing strategist for that
client and I'm more than justthe growth Sherpa for my VIP
client.
And I think the reason we havethose VIP relationships just
because we have somehow figuredout how to balance right our
expertise and focus.
But then, also, being sort of aon the way to work this morning
(06:15):
I was thinking we're sort ofthe consigliere's of these two
companies, of our two VIPclients.
Is that how you would view yourVIP client?
Because we wear a lot of shoes,right, I mean we wear a lot of
hats, sorry, not shoes, hats.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Our yes.
So our model is a little bitdifferent than some marketing
agencies in that we will take onan outsource CMO role.
So if someone does not have anin-house chief marketing officer
, we'll take that role and withthat we can own strategy,
budgeting, execution, thosethings and we can own the whole
picture, not just the piece thatthe marketing collective is
(06:54):
doing.
What that allows is for us toreally become very close, very
intimate with our clients,understand their business
incredibly well and be a memberof their leadership team, and in
some cases that works just fine.
We do the work.
We still stay in the marketinglane.
We serve as that CMO or weserve as an executional partner.
(07:15):
And then, in the case thatyou're talking about, benno,
there have been cases wherewe've had clients for 10 years
and when you have them for 10years in a CMO role, boy, do
those lines start to blurbetween are you the owner of the
marketing collective or are youmy chief operating officer?
What does that look like?
And I welcome that.
(07:36):
I know I'm succeeding when theythink I'm an internal employee
and not somebody external thatthey have to call and wonder is
this included in my contract ornot?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
So for me it's always exciting I joke that COVID
messed up my perfect recordbecause I had been invited to
every client's holiday partyeveryone, and it was an employee
based party, right, and theywould have their employees there
.
But we felt like employees, wewere part of the team.
But with that, just like atmost businesses, there's very
(08:09):
few marketing folks that areinside at a company that have a
very clear, defined role.
Many of them start taking onchief of staff operations.
Many of them start taking onrunning the board operations,
doing events that lead tostrategic planning.
You know, roles are inherentlyshrinking, getting tougher.
(08:30):
People are putting more andmore on their C-suite executives
and those teams to executearound it.
It seems true if I am a chiefmarketing officer, even if it is
part-time or if it is full-timein a company that happens to be
a client, our lines start toblur more and more and more, and
that's what's really happenedwith my VIP clients.
(08:50):
Is I think of myself as them somuch that there really isn't a
line, and that's okay.
That works really well.
I also think that I'm coming infrom a very different
perspective.
I'm seeing so many differentindustries, so many other
clients that we're still workingon that's bringing in for them.
But still having thatentrepreneurial spirit that we
(09:10):
talked about really relatesoftentimes to those founders
that founded a company 30, 40years ago and they want that to
maintain.
They want that in their culture.
So with us coming on and doingthat, it really allows us to
bring a perspective and, I think, a level of energy that you're
getting the best of both worlds.
You're getting that externalperspective but you're getting
(09:33):
somebody that knows you insideand out, as an internal coworker
, an internal employee, and Ithink that really gives us an
opportunity to give them adifferent level of expertise
than we can give to otherclients and so most outside
service providers right agencies, you know, rely on the SOW
(09:56):
right, the statement of work,the proposal, and on the one
hand, I get it.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
You have to have a clear charter with you know, to
start with right.
Okay, kara, you're going to be,you and your team are going to
do X, y and Z right.
And then, if they come, whenthey come up with A, B, you know
, a and B and L, you're like,well, that's not X, y and Z.
On the receiving end, thepeople that you know, the client
(10:22):
that signs up for a statementof work in SOW, they hate it,
right, because now it's likethey feel like we put them into
a straitjacket, that we can onlyhelp them with this.
So I always look foropportunities where we can build
trust by, as you said,listening to what else do you
(10:43):
need?
Can we help with this?
Can we help with that?
And sometimes, if it's outsideof the statement of work or it's
outside, if it becomes abusive,right, where we're signing up
for X, y and Z at you know, andeach of those three things is
(11:04):
worth $1.
So it's a $3 thing and nowwe're doing $26 worth of work
for every letter in the alphabetright, but we're still only
getting paid $3.
Of course, that's a differentsituation, but I think to start
with, I always embrace theopportunity to do more because
(11:25):
oftentimes it can create fivetimes more value than either
client or I had even anticipatedat the beginning.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, it's such an interesting process because nine
times out of 10, I'm developinga statement of work when I know
the absolute least about thatclient, so I might understand
the project but, I don'tunderstand them, I don't it's
usually at the beginning of therelationship.
Sometimes it's RFP driven right.
I only know what isn't workingfor them typically not what is
(11:57):
and so you're trying todetermine how do I best solve
their needs when you know theabsolute least about it.
So one thing I always do is saywe're going to revisit the
statement of work at the end of30 days, because it is quite
possible that I'm going to learnso much about you in that
timeframe that we're just goingto make different decisions
about how we work together andwhat you think might be the
challenge may not really be thechallenge.
(12:19):
The other piece on those SOWs Ireally wish there was a better
way to do it, and sometimes wedo sign up.
There is, there is Sometimes wesign up for an hours engagement
, a project-based engagement.
That really doesn't have thosedetailed parameters around it,
(12:40):
and sometimes it's a little bitscary.
But the reality is, if you everhave to go back and look at the
statement of work and say, well,let me see if that was in my
statement of work, you don'thave a good relationship with
that client and that statementof work probably isn't going to
be lasting.
So what's the real value?
I feel like it's artificialinsurance, because, whether it's
in there or not, we're going todo our best to deliver, and
(13:02):
deliver 120%.
We're going to do our best tobe as flexible as possible.
We're going to try to lean inand give you the best
recommendations as possible, butnine times out of 10, at least
in the marketing world peoplewant to start with that SOP.
They want to start with.
I want you to give me thispricing and that's how I'm going
to judge you and that's goingto be the basis of our
relationship to start, and Iunderstand that.
(13:24):
But it just isn't the best wayto really do the work and to
figure out what is needed.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
You have to tell us Benno.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Tell me, benno, what do you say is the growth Sherpa?
Because that is a constant, Iwould say pervasive challenge in
this industry.
People will come in to me andthey'll already have statements
of work and I'll say that Iwouldn't even do those things.
Why do they know the answersright now?
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Right, right, so, and you and I have talked about
this in the Vistage group In theearly days, you know, I started
Realign in 2009, 15 years ago,almost 16 years ago.
How crazy is that?
And I used to be so excitedwhen you know, I would have a
prospective client and we wouldget to the point where they're
(14:11):
like you know what, can youwrite us a proposal which is
essentially a statement of work?
Right, and I would say, yay,now I can write a statement of
work, a proposal, and a coupleyears into it, I started
answering differently.
I said no, I cannot.
Can write a statement of work,a proposal, and a couple of
years into it, I startedanswering differently.
I said no, I cannot write you aproposal, I cannot write you a
statement of work until I do anevaluation.
Let me spend one week doing agrowth evaluation, where I'm
(14:34):
going to do a deep dive.
Spend half of that week askingall these questions, looking at
income statements, operationalstatements, having stakeholder
interviews.
All of that week asking allthese questions, looking at
income statements, operationalstatements, having stakeholder
interviews, all of that.
And then the second half ofthat week doing the evaluation.
I'll tell them hey, here's thesituation that I think you're in
good, bad or ugly.
Here's the opportunity that Ithink we can go after and we can
(14:57):
solve for.
And number three here are theactivities that we need to do.
Those activities end up in theproposal statement of work right
, but now I charge a fixedamount for that growth
evaluation before I ever write astatement of work on a proposal
.
So I think that's something.
I mean, that's something that'sworked well for us.
(15:17):
But let's talk a little bitmore about you talked about
helping your clients get betterand in a conversation we had
prior to jumping on this podcast, you had talked about bigger.
Bigger is not always better,but better is always better.
Talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, it's always interesting.
I don't have any desire to addzeros behind the.
If we were 170.
And I think that is my attemptat focusing on.
(16:08):
Better is better, but bigger isnot necessarily.
Same is true with clients,large clients or large client
accounts if the profitabilityisn't there, if it's taking all
of your resources, if it'spulling your team down, if
they're just not a good fit foryour team culturally, it doesn't
matter how big they are.
They're not going to help yourteam get better.
(16:28):
You're going to struggle tohelp them get better.
So we consistently evaluate upagainst is this going to make us
a stronger agency by takingthis account, and is this the
right fit for us?
I can point to a handful oftimes that it really didn't work
out and if I would have beenhonest, I knew going into it it
(16:49):
probably wasn't going to workout.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
But you get this notion of you get excited about
it, you get excited, you getpulled in, you can help everyone
or this is going to be a fasttrack into a new area.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
This is going to get us in and break us in in this
place.
And then you know, three monthslater I knew I didn't want to
go that direction, I didn't evenwant those additional.
Now they're referring peoplethat don't make sense for us.
But you know, you get pulledinto all of that because I think
as a society sometimes we thinkthat bigger is better, right,
and if you have this many, ifyou have two, four is great, but
(17:23):
eight is really where you wantto be, and I just really pull
myself back and say that's notthe goal.
The goal is to have the mostimpact we can have on the
smallest number of folks,because that's where we're going
to have the greater impact, andto build those relationships,
to build those VIP clients, tobuild those people that truly
live in the trust space.
And that's not a commodity,that's not something that we can
(17:46):
always just churn, churn, churn.
And so that's really why thefocus is we have to be the best
at getting better, we have tolook at ways to get better, and
that doesn't necessarily equateto getting the next largest
client or adding this manypeople.
It really is focusing on whatare you good at and drive your
(18:07):
energies there.
And that's again back to thebalance and the energy and all
those things that we started theconversation.
To me, all of that comestogether in terms of what do you
want to accomplish and whereare you going to go, and for me
it is not necessarily reallyaround size.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Seth Godin talks about.
He uses the term smallestviable audience.
Yes, and I love that.
I love him Right.
I mean that's, yeah, I need toget purple, Maybe.
I need to get purple glasseslike he has Now I want I have my
(18:49):
own purple cow.
I think that was the name ofone of his books.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
One of his books?
Speaker 1 (18:52):
yes, the concept of smallest viable audience in my
business, and also when we workwith clients, helps us to really
focus in on what, like in mybusiness, it's what are we
really good at and what are thetypes of clients that we really
(19:14):
love, that really love us, andlet's talk to them as
prospective clients right, let'smake them bigger as current
clients, but that to me, is sortof the balance of expert focus.
Right, I'm focusing in on mysmallest viable audience, but
(19:36):
that also creates a lot ofentrepreneurial energy for us,
right, because now I'm not beingbogged down by, you know, that
bigger audience that I thoughtyou know, I thought I wanted to
have 170 Sherpas.
I don't.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Right, right Well.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I'm perfectly happy with a dozen.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Well, I'm perfectly happy with a dozen.
I'm sure, Benno, you've heardthis a million times, but you're
talking to a client or a newprospect, and you want to
understand more of who's goingto buy their service, who's
going to buy their product whodo?
they want to be their customersand the answer is everyone.
And it makes me cringe everytime.
(20:19):
No, it's not rocket sciencehere.
No one serves everyone, and itjust isn't.
And it's the reverse of the way.
I want my clients to think.
It is the absolute reverse.
And so having thoseconversations around what really
is our sweet spot and how do wedifferentiate, that really
(20:43):
makes all the difference in theworld.
I think when you're trying todevelop some of your marketing
strategy and, I would assume,your growth strategy too, but,
it's an interesting conversationto have, because so many folks
think they start defending wecan do anything.
We can do anything.
So-and-so needs it too andso-and-so might buy this.
And we're not selling to thisgroup, but they may buy it in
the future and they'll startgetting very defensive around
(21:03):
that.
And the reality is you don'thave the resources, you don't
have the energy, you don't havethe expertise and you really
don't want to sell to everyone.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
When you're everything to everybody, you're
nothing to nobody.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
I believe that Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And I think it also and you and I had talked about
this in the past too that youknow you can't really
effectively market to theexternal world unless you have a
really clear idea on theinternal culture and talk a
little bit about how.
And that plays right into thissmallest viable audience idea,
right, unless you have a verysuper focused view on who is
(21:43):
your external market smallestviable audience.
You could only develop that ifyou have a really clear
understanding of the internalculture that can serve that
external small audience.
How do you get your arms aroundyour client's culture as it
relates to helping to marketthem?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I would say it's a fantastic question.
One of the things I would sayis I joked before, but I was
being serious when I said wetake clients or we take
assignments and three monthslater they're not working as
well as I had hoped and I knewin my heart they probably
wouldn't, I find that so manybusiness owners and so many
leaders they're not being honestwith themselves or they're not
(22:23):
being honest with their teamsbecause they are chasing
different goals.
So the annual operating plansays we need X.
So I'm just going to chase andget X and keep churning and
bringing it in when I know thatwhat we're really good at is
this over here and I need torevise the plan to match.
What we're really good at isthis over here and I need to
revise the plan to match whatwe're really good at.
Most folks in marketing willtalk about a customer journey.
(22:44):
They'll talk about you know,how does your customer make
decisions?
Where are their pain points?
What do they do?
We like to do that, oftentimesinternally, and understand how
people are making decisionsabout working there, why they're
working there, what they'regood at, why they were hired,
what they were hired to do, whypeople enjoy them, why people
come back to them.
That oftentimes will startgetting at what differentiates
(23:07):
you from your competitors.
Another one of the things thatmakes my eye roll is when I say
how are you different?
And people say it's the peopleand they can't give you anything
else.
Right, our people are better.
You have to tell me how we'refamily, that's fine.
Right.
Tell me how they're better, andsometimes they really are right
.
Sometimes you have thesephenomenal teams that your teams
(23:28):
make things happen.
You know the process can be thesame across different
industries or differentcompanies, but the team can
really set you apart.
But you have to prove that, youhave to define that.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
And you have to define it.
You have to define it right.
Yes, Because usually peopleare….
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Well, all impartial people, they're kind of too lazy
.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Sometimes people are too lazy to define what makes
you….
So what makes you different?
What makes you better?
Why do you have the best people?
Is it because they are the mosteducated, or the most
entrepreneurial, or the mostopen-minded or the hardest
working?
What combination of secretsauce do you value?
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yes, absolutely true, absolutely true, and that helps
you understand who you're goingto pair the most with and where
that attraction and that fit isgoing to happen.
And if you think about.
Again back to that firstconversation or early starter
conversation we had on this call.
When you're thinking aboutentrepreneurialism, you think of
all those synergies that kindof happen as you're building a
(24:36):
company, as you're building aculture, all the people you meet
along the way who work with youand make and help you, whether
they're other vendors, otherpartners, mentors.
That's all about that fit andthat's all about understanding
where you're the best and whereyou should align your energy.
That still rings true whenyou're trying to attract clients
and who you're working with andhow.
(24:57):
So one of the things that Ijoke about but we have several
clients in the constructionspace One of the reasons I think
we do well with construction isbecause we're not really in my
opinion.
We don't do a lot of BS, wedon't do a lot of fluff.
We don't do a lot of I've gotan aha idea marketing moment for
you that's going to turn thingsinto millions.
(25:17):
We're much more.
This is the process.
I'm going to talk to youstraight.
I'm going to give you if I cantell you in 10 words.
I'm using 10, not 15, not 20.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
There's no consultant speak.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
That really just aligns well to that industry.
It aligns to how they're usedto speaking what they're used to
seeing.
They kind of inherently thinkeverybody is full of BS anyway.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So when you cut through it and say I'm not
giving you that, If it's notbricks and mortar and concrete
and steel, right then.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Right, right, then it's probably not right, and so
that just has attracted thattype of individuals in that
industry.
Well, we saw that, so westarted thinking, well, what
other industries really alignwith that?
We don't have to stay inconstruction.
We do marketing across alldifferent types of B2B companies
and we do primarily work justin the B2B space.
(26:06):
But we work with companies allacross the country that are in
different industries, indifferent areas.
Does manufacturing fit that?
Does technology fit that?
Where do those other companiescome?
Now, I'm not writing out therein my marketing.
I want to work with companiesthat don't like BS, but I know
it about myself.
I'm honest about the industriesthat will look for that, the
ones that are looking for alarge team, a lot of pre-sculpt
(26:31):
type creative, a lot ofworkshopping of the creative and
all that.
There is nothing wrong with anyof that, it just typically
isn't our approach and it isn'tthen our clients.
So I mean we can do that ifsomebody wants that, but that's
not usually us.
And so I think, first andforemost, being true to yourself
(26:53):
and understanding who you areand really spending the time to
think about that and be honestabout it really helps.
Then align with the cultures ofyour clients.
That are going to be those fits, and that's how I've had
clients stay for 10 years.
I don't think the work we dofor them is vastly different
than the work we've done forothers.
We just have built this bondand this relationship and this
(27:14):
ability to be honest,transparent and trustworthy
enough to say, hey, I think thisis really going to work for you
, we need to do it, and it'sentirely outside of any scope
we've ever talked about or hey,I thought this was a good idea,
we've been doing it for sixmonths.
I don't think it's not.
It's not like I've got to bitethe bullet and we've got to take
(27:36):
it and I've got to make this upand I've got to readjust, but
those are those honestconversations you have with
people you like.
Yes, yes, you have thoseconversations with people you
like, you have the relationshipwith and you fix it right, as
opposed to you know.
Just, I'm not in this fortransactional type work.
We can get work all the time.
I want to work with people Ienjoy working with on my team
(27:59):
and clients we enjoy workingwith, and that's one of the
brilliant sides of running yourown companies you get to pick
that right.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
That's a brilliant part, so you get to pick that
and own that, and it ends upthen being a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Kara, thank you so much for jumping on this episode
together.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
If folks wanted to reach out to you one-on-one,
where's a good place they canfind you?
Oh, I'm certainly on LinkedInand email as well.
So Cara Clark Williams onLinkedIn website is
marketing-collectivecom and myemail is Cara with a K K A R A
at marketing-collectivecom.
So those would be great ways Iwould love to talk to folks.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, cara.
This was great.
Thank you, we'll have to doanother episode.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Absolutely.
Appreciate it very much.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
You bet.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of TGO Podcast.
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, Benno, host ofTGO podcast, there as well.
(29:07):
Just email, benno B-E-N-N-O atrealign4resultscom.
Let's keep growing you.
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