October 17, 2024 • 31 mins
Are you looking for a Third Growth Option ℠ ?
How do retailers juggle the complex world of multi-channel sales? In this episode, we dive deep into the evolving gift and home industry with Kim Leister, president of Simblist. We explore how old-school methods like trade shows and store visits have morphed into a blend of digital platforms like FAIR and Amazon. Kim shares her insights on the challenges retailers and vendors face, especially when it comes to keeping customers informed in an increasingly complex market.
We also touch on the heart of the industry: relationships and transparency. Over the last 20 years, collaboration and trust have become essential to success, especially as the roles of sales reps evolve. Kim talks about how businesses can balance personalized service with digital strategies, while personal stories highlight the importance of customer loyalty and trust. This episode unpacks how embracing vulnerability and focusing on fairness can foster an environment where both vendors and retailers can thrive in a competitive landscape.
Always growing.
Benno Duenkelsbuehler
CEO & Chief Sherpa of (re)ALIGN
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer podcast,
where we talk about all thingsgrowth, yes, even and especially
those hard parts where you shedsome skin and pick yourself up
by the bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth Sherpa and OG hashtag
growth nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Hey everybody, I am Kim Leister.
I am located outside ofPhiladelphia, Pennsylvania.
I've lived here my entire life.
I am the president of Symbolist.
More importantly, I am a hugegeek and lover of our industry.
I just can't get away from it.
(00:55):
I'm happy to be here today withBenno.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, kim, andthis industry we're talking
about is the gift and homeindustry, and Symbolist is a
wonderful sales agency.
With how many sales people doyou have?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We have 22.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
22 sales people and I'm excited to have this
conversation.
I should probably introducemyself.
I'm Benno, the host of theThird Growth Option podcast,
recorded today from our MexicoCity office, and I just want to
have a conversation with you,kim, about this multi-channel
(01:35):
world, multi-touchpoint world.
That used to be a little biteasier when it was all analog
right.
There were sort of three waysfor a consumer products company
to sell something to a retailer.
It was like the buyer came tosee the seller at a trade show,
(01:56):
the buyer came to see the sellerat their office, or the seller,
the salesperson came to see thebuyer in the retail store right
or at the office.
So it used to be sort of threeways.
But now we have the retailer hasa website, the seller, the
consumer products vendor brand,has a website.
They're on Fair, they're onAmazon.
(02:18):
You know there's probably 10different websites that
everybody is selling and buyingfrom.
So it makes it complicated andcomplex and people sort of crash
into each other and systems andwebsites sort of crash into
each other.
What's your just?
(02:38):
How do you describe thiscomplexity and how do you make
sense of it all?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I guess yeah, I think that we are in an evolving
industry and whether it'spersonal, professional, we all
have to evolve.
So I do see it as a good thing.
I think that there's confusionout there and one of the biggest
confusions that comes in iswith the customer, and I think
(03:07):
it's our job as agencies, asvendors, to give clear guidance
and clear acceptance and supportof all these different ways to
buy.
Additionally, I think we haveto educate on the different ways
to buy and that's our job to dothat.
(03:28):
I believe, and it's our job towork with our vendors, that we
work together to set thatprotocol.
So for me, our most importantthing as an agency and always
should be is to physically bepresent for our customers.
That is, first and foremost,getting out there, seeing them,
(03:48):
understanding their business, sowe can guide them to buying the
right product for their stores.
Then, of course, we have shows,which are wonderful.
The vendors are there, you havevendor websites where they can
order from and you have fairwhere they can order from.
So, I think, educating thecustomer.
(04:09):
We don't go in and say you canjust buy from us, you can just
buy from our showroom.
We educate them on thedifferent options, because we do
have to meet the customer wherethey are.
Because, at the end of the day,too, we're working with
customers that don't have asmuch time and staffing as they
used to, so it's important.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
And just for listeners, sort of outside of
the gifted home industry, whenwe're talking about customers,
we're talking about these tensof thousands of retailers in the
United States.
Thousands of retailers in theUnited States, right Be that, I
don't know something like 80,000mom and pop sort of single
location, gift stores or gardencenters or hardware stores or
(04:53):
clothing boutiques, what haveyou to regional chains, to
specialty stores, all the way upto the big box.
Big box, sure?
So that's just, let's say,100,000 different buyers.
Are our customers right?
(05:13):
When FAIR came along which FAIRis sort of the Amazon for
retail buyers, that created alot of confusion and don't move
my cheese.
And uh, we're in a differentplace with that now than we were
four, three, four, five yearsago.
(05:33):
Uh, are, are, are we not?
Or where do you think?
How do you thinkIR fits intothe equation today?
And what could vendors dobetter to make that?
What could?
For some vendors it's 5%, 2% oftheir business, for others it
(05:54):
might be 20% of their business.
What can vendors do better?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So first I want to say when FAIR first came out, I
think there really was a greatplace for it for discovery
brands.
You had these small vendorsthat couldn't afford to pay an
agency, a commission, to theirreps, and I think it was a
really great place to launchbrands.
And back when I was on the road, I would say to reps you should
(06:27):
look at it.
You might find stuff.
You're going to get aguaranteed sale, you're going to
get terms, you're going to getall these benefits.
Or maybe it's the smaller shops, maybe it's, you know, people
struggling with a little bitmoney, maybe they want to find
some unique things.
And I think it really had asolid place.
And that has changed because somany vendors have gotten on fair
(06:48):
and I feel like it is dilutedfair in a negative way.
So what happens is these poorcustomers look at fair.
They're not getting the samedeal from I'll even remove the
sales rep from it.
They're not even getting thesame deal from I'll even remove
the sales rep from it.
They're not even getting thesame deal from the vendor
directly.
So they're going to go to fair,they're going to get that deal
(07:11):
and they're going to stay onthere.
And that becomes an issuebecause there's some really good
deals on there and is thatsustainable long-term for any
vendor?
And I do worry too, and I saythis all the time we have to be
really careful with.
What has happened in this worldis everything is discounted,
(07:35):
everything has a promotionattached to it, and I think
about the small stores out there.
They can't sustain on apromotion every day, right, and
it's the same thing for thevendor and it's the same thing
for us.
So FAIR was a big game changerin the sense that I really do
(07:55):
wish it stayed in its lane,because I think it could have
grown and been really great.
And the one thing that we lackin this industry is new vendors,
because it's hard to be a newvendor, it's hard to get your
name out there.
Fair was a great platform forthese vendors to get out there
and for customers just todiscover new brands.
(08:18):
I think it dilutes and becomescomplicated.
I think everybody also wants apiece of the pie.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Right, and I mean the way I look at it.
I think you know, lookdifferent buyers.
Buyers want to buy the way theywant to buy, right?
Some buyers want to buyface-to-face with a salesperson
in their store.
Others want to buy, you know,at 10 o'clock at night from a
website because they don't havetime to do it during the day.
(08:46):
Some others want to buy in theshowroom, and so there's a dozen
different ways to do it now,instead of these two or three
ways.
Um, and I think it is up to thevendor community, the brands,
uh, that are that are utilizingdifferent web digital platforms
(09:13):
and are utilizing services ofsales agencies like yours, or
hiring their own salespeople ifthey're a large company.
It's up to the brands andvendors to coordinate all of
that and align all of that sothat the pricing mix and the
(09:35):
assortment mix and thepromotional mix doesn't create a
traffic jam.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Right.
I think inconsistency createsconfusion.
Right, creates confusion.
So if I have a vendor that'soffering all these promos on
fair, then I have another vendorthat isn't, then I have another
vendor that's in between.
I step back and say here we areas an industry and this
(10:06):
industry the agency side reallyhasn't changed over the years.
We've operated on basically aset commission.
That's never changed.
Our terms have really neverchanged.
Maybe we've adjusted somecontracts, here and there We've
had to adjust based on fare anddifferent things going on, but
(10:28):
the inconsistency is veryconfusing, not only for the reps
but the customers, and I alwaysthink to myself why isn't there
like just a protocol set?
Everybody gets the same deal,everybody does the same thing,
and I think it would be superhelpful.
That's what we do and we takethat vendor promo and, whether
(10:53):
it's during a show season orwhatever it may be, we extend
that to our customers, we makethem aware of it and I feel like
that's consistent and it hasbeen.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Are you laughing at me?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
No, I'm not at all laughing at you.
I'm smiling because before wehit the record button we were
talking about your recent tripto Europe and my having grown up
in Germany.
A broad overgeneralization isthat Germans or Europeans are
(11:42):
more orderly and Americans aremore entrepreneurial.
Right, and part of myattraction to making the United
States my home for the last 40plus years and becoming a US
citizen is this entrepreneurialspirit.
And in our gift and homeindustry that entrepreneurial
spirit is especially well andalive because we have, you know,
we have thousands of smaller,you know of startup or 10 to 15
(12:09):
year old brands where the owneris this creative dynamo and that
creates wonderful product andwonderful merchandising ideas
and wonderful, you know,creativity.
Uh, and those kinds of cats arehard to pin down.
And you, with a German trafficcop, you know, everybody stop at
(12:32):
a red light and everybody go ata green light.
So it's a balancing act.
I feel like right, I totallyagree that a protocol would be a
lovely thing and I'm imaginingmyself.
You know we're going to theGHTA conference next week as of
the recording here, and I couldjust imagine myself in a room of
(12:56):
200, you know, 100 sales agencyfolks and 100 vendor brands.
Let's sit around a table andcreate a protocol together.
It'll be a food fight.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
It will be a food fight.
We just won't have any food onthe table.
You know, I think about thisand this is what a struggle is
and it's not, you know, poor us,this side of the industry,
because we really want to evolveand give.
The ultimate thing is to getour customers more successful.
The more successful they are,the more ideas we give them, the
(13:29):
more we create product that isright for them, is going to make
them grow.
That's the one thing.
I would think the vendors, theagencies and fair, we all have
that same goal we want ourcustomers to have money to spend
, to be successful and do greatthings in this country for
everybody.
So I think you know, like, say,our website, our protocol on
(13:54):
our website is it's there.
It's a great website.
We've invested a lot of moneyin it.
It's our third line of defenseI say.
I always say we're on the road.
We should be on the road in ourshowroom and then online.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
But our online system is that order comes through, it
goes to the rep, the rep has toevaluate it, approve it and
take it through the follow-up.
And I think someinconsistencies we see is if an
order goes direct to a vendor,either through FARE or to them,
what is the protocol that we canset up that's consistent?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Does the rep even know about it right?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Exactly.
And listen, I think there hasto be some consistency.
Okay, it comes in that way.
Let's set a 24 or 48 hourperiod where the rep gets to
review it and then release it.
You know there, there just hasto.
We have a protocol.
I don't think everybody on theother side has the same protocol
(14:51):
and that is kind of like a foodfight, Right?
Speaker 1 (14:54):
right right.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
And that creates confusion for the customer.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
That's right.
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You're exactly right.
(15:46):
And you know, one thing that I'mvery excited about in the gift
and home industry is the factthat we have gotten better as an
industry in the last 10, 20years in terms of being more
collaborative, more open, moretransparent, sharing with each
other.
I remember 10, 20 years ago,everybody was like this, you
(16:07):
know, like no, I'm not going totell you what I'm doing, you
know.
I'm not going to show you myproduct.
I'm not going to show you mypolicies or protocols.
I'm going to do it and I'mgoing to try to be better than
you.
Right, that's right, and Ithink that is the power of you
know, trade associations,getting the different
(16:29):
stakeholders together around atable more and more.
So you're absolutely right, wedo need to.
What else can?
What else can, what else areyou telling your reps to do in
this more complicated, complexworld than because many of them
(16:51):
are probably holding on to it?
But 10 years ago it was easier,right?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Sure, and I think 10 years ago it was a lot easier
because you weren't competingwith anybody.
The rep was just out theregetting the orders they would.
They'd have set appointments.
Then they'd be stopping in atnew accounts and it was
different because there was nocompetition.
They still have the same exactjob to do Set those appointments
.
While they're out of thatappointment on the ride home, oh
(17:20):
, I see a store I'm going tostop in, I'm going to introduce
myself.
None of that has changed.
Nor'll throw something outthere.
I hate bestsellers.
I don't believe in them.
That seems counterintuitive.
(17:52):
Bestseller in Philadelphia,pennsylvania, is not a
bestseller in New York.
So it's our job as the peopleon the street to go in there and
be like you know what youshould have.
This, this and this and you'regoing to create these are going
to become your bestsellers,that's right.
So it's individualizing eachcustomer, and that is the beauty
(18:16):
of knowing your territory,knowing your customers and being
there.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
You know, I love that you said that because, on the
one hand, of course, there isvalue to know what a brand's
bestsellers are and it isabsolutely important to also be
very conscious of the reasonsthat make it a bestseller may
not apply to this individualstore, right, there may be a
(18:42):
regional chain having it as anend cap or something like that,
right, that's why it's abestseller.
It's not going to be abestseller in Chestnut Hill,
pennsylvania.
Right, and I think that is oneof the key values that a local
sales rep provides that they'rein the store and they can help
(19:03):
with the merchandising.
And you know, that's why avendor that has a good, you know
that has a great catalog,online catalog, paper website,
makes it easy to buy.
That's great, but that is notenough.
(19:24):
That is not the same as asalesperson walking into the
store and saying you know what,this glass is great for
everybody else, but you needthis one in the smaller or
bigger size or in a color orwhatever, because it would fit
really well on that display youhave over there.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Right and that's time physically spent somewhere
Right and building thatrelationship.
Because I always tell the storyI bought Toyotas for years.
I bought Toyotas because I lovethis guy.
I don't think I really liked aToyota.
To be quite honest with you, Iwas thinking the other day how
(20:03):
many Toyotas have we bought fromthis man?
I think it's like over 11.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Because I love this man, because you like the
salesperson.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I love the salesperson.
I'll never forget the firsttime I met him.
He walked outside to show mesomething and he said to me walk
away.
And I looked at him like whatdid you just say to me?
And he said do you need the cartoday?
And I said, no, I mean, this isgoing back a long time I said no
and he goes okay, leave, I'lltalk to you later.
And we have built such arelationship with this man
(20:38):
because of his approach.
He was an ex-Philadelphia copselling cars calm, nice.
I would refer anybody to him.
And I think that's theimportance of the relationship
and the trust and the investmentsomebody else makes.
And I don't think, you know,we're in this time right now
(20:59):
where sales aren't great andeverybody wants to know what
they're doing wrong and it's notthat anybody's necessarily
doing anything wrong, it's justa bad time.
But you take this bad time andyou be present, whether you have
an appointment or don't have anappointment, you be present to
build the relationship Becausethe return on the investment for
(21:21):
that is going to be huge whenthe chaos dies down.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
So I think that you know that's that physical
investment, that value.
And don't get me wrong, I don'tthink a rep should be driving
four hours to pop in.
I also don't think a rep shouldhave a territory-.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
For a $50 order that will never buy more than $100 a
year right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
So there is that part of that and that's where the
benefit comes in of the websites, whether it be the vendor fair,
that's where that comes in.
So I mean, I do think there's abalance to it.
But I also think a rep'sterritory shouldn't be four
hours away, but that's a wholeother topic, you know it has to
(22:14):
be strategically defined.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
You know it has to be strategically defined.
You know I jotted down the worddisintermediation just because
I love that word.
No, when you and I talked amonth ago about you said sales
reps are afraid of being cut outof the transaction.
Right, so private equity peopleuse the word disintermediation
(22:44):
and I love it.
But are your salespeople lessafraid today, now that we're
sort of five, ten years into theevolution of digital channels,
participating more and more?
Or is the field growing orabating?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
I'm going to be honest, I don't experience that
as much in our business.
I think it's real for a lot ofpeople, for a lot of people, but
I think it's also back to youknow.
(23:25):
Some things I will say to ourreps are the vendor has to stay
in business and if we're notgrowing with them, they need
other venues as well.
So I think the educationprocess is super helpful for all
of us and I think that that's abig disconnect in our industry.
(23:45):
Going back to holdingeverything tight, and I don't
know if necessarily it's theripple effect from that, but if
I sat down I always wonder Doyour sales rep really know
what's going on with the vendor?
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Does the vendor really know what's going on with
us all the time, Right?
And I think that there's a lackof open and honest
communication and sharingtransparencies that we actually
all understand.
Like there are times, you know,it'll be a smaller vendor and
that smaller vendor is panickedfor money and they are really
(24:24):
reaching out to the reps all thetime when the reps should be on
the road and we have an opencommunication policy.
Our vendors can contact ourreps whenever.
But I think to understand, likewe'll say to our reps nobody's
financially backing them, Right,so understand that.
Like we'll say to our repsnobody's financially backing
(24:45):
them, so understand that.
And I think that's, you know, weall have different levels of
vendors, agencies I think, abetter understanding of who we
all are and how we operate.
Like I was on a call last weekand the vendor said I'm always
afraid when the phone rings I'mgetting fired.
And I was so shocked to hearthat, Like I never in a million
years would have thought of thatand I was like it was like a
(25:06):
light bulb moment for me.
Like if they feel that way, whoelse feels it that way?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Right, right, I think what you just said is super
important that any business,right, any business owner you as
the leader of Symbolist, thevendor owner, founder of a
consumer products company, anybusiness or employee for that
(25:35):
matter knows what they know andhas their goals and their ways
to go after it.
And all of us need other people, right, you know inside the
company, you know the product,people need the sales, people
need the operations, people Fromone company to another.
(25:57):
You know you have outsideservice providers, you have
customers to another.
You know you have outsideservice providers, you have
customers.
Everybody depends on each otherand we all and this happens
inside families right, we allthink that this one is not
listening to me and that one ismaking that mistake and nobody
understands me.
(26:18):
And the only way to make itbetter is better collaboration
through better transparency,through being vulnerable and say
, yeah, I don't have all theanswers and I'm afraid you're
going to fire me and you'reprobably afraid of something
else, right?
So how do we collaborate and behonest, open with each other?
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I love that.
You said you have to bevulnerable, and that's something
I've really learned.
You can't sit there and fake it.
You have to be vulnerable andyou have to own it and you have
to say what's going on.
I don't think a vendor of ourscould say that I wouldn't be
(27:06):
like you know what.
We totally messed up.
You're right, you are 100%right, and I think that we have
to acknowledge that more than wedo, and I think on both sides
all sides we have to acknowledgethat.
I'll even throw in fair shouldacknowledge some of the things
(27:27):
that have happened.
I think we all, instead of likeclawing to get to the top I
always forget the quote AndyBurek always says it it's a
rising tide, is it?
A rising tide raises all ships.
That's right.
I really wish we could do thattogether.
Like I know, I have greatpartnerships with other agencies
.
A vendor comes to me.
(27:48):
It's not right for us.
I send it to somebody else, doan intro, Like if we could all
be more transparent and morevulnerable, even to say I'm
failing this vendor.
I think it's a better fit withsomebody else.
How do we, how do we help thatvendor to get them to somebody
else and vice versa, Like it hasto be an open collaboration of
(28:11):
nobody's ever going to tell meanybody's perfect, we're all
going to mess up, we're allgoing to fail, we're.
We're going to fail each other.
And you know, either we get tothe other side of that
collectively or we don't.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
So I would love personally to see more of that
in the industry.
More of you know as I refer toit as playing nice in the
sandbox.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Right, you know that's.
That's probably a great endingline to this conversation that
we should just all play nicewith each other in the sandbox.
Do the things we were taught inkindergarten.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
That's exactly right, be fair and nice and open?
Speaker 1 (28:55):
No, but I think in terms of business, look,
business obviously is tougherthan a sandbox, right, because
people go out of business,people lose their livelihood if
things don't go right.
But I think, especially becausethe stakes are higher, I think
(29:17):
that makes it even moreimportant to collaborate and be
transparent and be vulnerable.
But I love the way in which youdescribe how you're coaching
your sales team and alsoapproaching the conversations
with vendors and brands tofigure it out together.
(29:42):
Nobody is, you know.
There's not an us versus them.
There's an us.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Thank you so much for hopping on this podcast episode
.
Hey, folks wanted to reach outto you one-on-one.
Where's a good place for themto find you?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah, they can.
You can go to LinkedIn.
My email is klister atsymbolistgroupcom, and if you
forgot that, just go to thesymbolistgroupcom website and
you can find me on there too.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
You'll see a photo of Kim Leister.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
You'll see there you go, you will see a photo of me.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Thank you so much, thanks for having me Benno, have
a great day.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Thank you, take care.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Thanks, bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Thank you for listening to this episode of TGO
Podcast.
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, benno, host ofTGO podcast, there as well.
Just email Benno B-E-N-N-O atrealign4resultscom.
(30:50):
Let's keep growing.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Thank you.
Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer podcast,
where we talk about all thingsgrowth, yes, even and especially
those hard parts where you shedsome skin and pick yourself up
by the bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth Sherpa and OG hashtag
growth nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Hey everybody, I am Kim Leister.
I am located outside ofPhiladelphia, Pennsylvania.
I've lived here my entire life.
I am the president of Symbolist.
More importantly, I am a hugegeek and lover of our industry.
I just can't get away from it.
(00:55):
I'm happy to be here today withBenno.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, kim, andthis industry we're talking
about is the gift and homeindustry, and Symbolist is a
wonderful sales agency.
With how many sales people doyou have?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We have 22.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
22 sales people and I'm excited to have this
conversation.
I should probably introducemyself.
I'm Benno, the host of theThird Growth Option podcast,
recorded today from our MexicoCity office, and I just want to
have a conversation with you,kim, about this multi-channel
(01:35):
world, multi-touchpoint world.
That used to be a little biteasier when it was all analog
right.
There were sort of three waysfor a consumer products company
to sell something to a retailer.
It was like the buyer came tosee the seller at a trade show,
(01:56):
the buyer came to see the sellerat their office, or the seller,
the salesperson came to see thebuyer in the retail store right
or at the office.
So it used to be sort of threeways.
But now we have the retailer hasa website, the seller, the
consumer products vendor brand,has a website.
They're on Fair, they're onAmazon.
(02:18):
You know there's probably 10different websites that
everybody is selling and buyingfrom.
So it makes it complicated andcomplex and people sort of crash
into each other and systems andwebsites sort of crash into
each other.
What's your just?
(02:38):
How do you describe thiscomplexity and how do you make
sense of it all?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I guess yeah, I think that we are in an evolving
industry and whether it'spersonal, professional, we all
have to evolve.
So I do see it as a good thing.
I think that there's confusionout there and one of the biggest
confusions that comes in iswith the customer, and I think
(03:07):
it's our job as agencies, asvendors, to give clear guidance
and clear acceptance and supportof all these different ways to
buy.
Additionally, I think we haveto educate on the different ways
to buy and that's our job to dothat.
(03:28):
I believe, and it's our job towork with our vendors, that we
work together to set thatprotocol.
So for me, our most importantthing as an agency and always
should be is to physically bepresent for our customers.
That is, first and foremost,getting out there, seeing them,
(03:48):
understanding their business, sowe can guide them to buying the
right product for their stores.
Then, of course, we have shows,which are wonderful.
The vendors are there, you havevendor websites where they can
order from and you have fairwhere they can order from.
So, I think, educating thecustomer.
(04:09):
We don't go in and say you canjust buy from us, you can just
buy from our showroom.
We educate them on thedifferent options, because we do
have to meet the customer wherethey are.
Because, at the end of the day,too, we're working with
customers that don't have asmuch time and staffing as they
used to, so it's important.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
And just for listeners, sort of outside of
the gifted home industry, whenwe're talking about customers,
we're talking about these tensof thousands of retailers in the
United States.
Thousands of retailers in theUnited States, right Be that, I
don't know something like 80,000mom and pop sort of single
location, gift stores or gardencenters or hardware stores or
(04:53):
clothing boutiques, what haveyou to regional chains, to
specialty stores, all the way upto the big box.
Big box, sure?
So that's just, let's say,100,000 different buyers.
Are our customers right?
(05:13):
When FAIR came along which FAIRis sort of the Amazon for
retail buyers, that created alot of confusion and don't move
my cheese.
And uh, we're in a differentplace with that now than we were
four, three, four, five yearsago.
(05:33):
Uh, are, are, are we not?
Or where do you think?
How do you thinkIR fits intothe equation today?
And what could vendors dobetter to make that?
What could?
For some vendors it's 5%, 2% oftheir business, for others it
(05:54):
might be 20% of their business.
What can vendors do better?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So first I want to say when FAIR first came out, I
think there really was a greatplace for it for discovery
brands.
You had these small vendorsthat couldn't afford to pay an
agency, a commission, to theirreps, and I think it was a
really great place to launchbrands.
And back when I was on the road, I would say to reps you should
(06:27):
look at it.
You might find stuff.
You're going to get aguaranteed sale, you're going to
get terms, you're going to getall these benefits.
Or maybe it's the smaller shops, maybe it's, you know, people
struggling with a little bitmoney, maybe they want to find
some unique things.
And I think it really had asolid place.
And that has changed because somany vendors have gotten on fair
(06:48):
and I feel like it is dilutedfair in a negative way.
So what happens is these poorcustomers look at fair.
They're not getting the samedeal from I'll even remove the
sales rep from it.
They're not even getting thesame deal from I'll even remove
the sales rep from it.
They're not even getting thesame deal from the vendor
directly.
So they're going to go to fair,they're going to get that deal
(07:11):
and they're going to stay onthere.
And that becomes an issuebecause there's some really good
deals on there and is thatsustainable long-term for any
vendor?
And I do worry too, and I saythis all the time we have to be
really careful with.
What has happened in this worldis everything is discounted,
(07:35):
everything has a promotionattached to it, and I think
about the small stores out there.
They can't sustain on apromotion every day, right, and
it's the same thing for thevendor and it's the same thing
for us.
So FAIR was a big game changerin the sense that I really do
(07:55):
wish it stayed in its lane,because I think it could have
grown and been really great.
And the one thing that we lackin this industry is new vendors,
because it's hard to be a newvendor, it's hard to get your
name out there.
Fair was a great platform forthese vendors to get out there
and for customers just todiscover new brands.
(08:18):
I think it dilutes and becomescomplicated.
I think everybody also wants apiece of the pie.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Right, and I mean the way I look at it.
I think you know, lookdifferent buyers.
Buyers want to buy the way theywant to buy, right?
Some buyers want to buyface-to-face with a salesperson
in their store.
Others want to buy, you know,at 10 o'clock at night from a
website because they don't havetime to do it during the day.
(08:46):
Some others want to buy in theshowroom, and so there's a dozen
different ways to do it now,instead of these two or three
ways.
Um, and I think it is up to thevendor community, the brands,
uh, that are that are utilizingdifferent web digital platforms
(09:13):
and are utilizing services ofsales agencies like yours, or
hiring their own salespeople ifthey're a large company.
It's up to the brands andvendors to coordinate all of
that and align all of that sothat the pricing mix and the
(09:35):
assortment mix and thepromotional mix doesn't create a
traffic jam.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Right.
I think inconsistency createsconfusion.
Right, creates confusion.
So if I have a vendor that'soffering all these promos on
fair, then I have another vendorthat isn't, then I have another
vendor that's in between.
I step back and say here we areas an industry and this
(10:06):
industry the agency side reallyhasn't changed over the years.
We've operated on basically aset commission.
That's never changed.
Our terms have really neverchanged.
Maybe we've adjusted somecontracts, here and there We've
had to adjust based on fare anddifferent things going on, but
(10:28):
the inconsistency is veryconfusing, not only for the reps
but the customers, and I alwaysthink to myself why isn't there
like just a protocol set?
Everybody gets the same deal,everybody does the same thing,
and I think it would be superhelpful.
That's what we do and we takethat vendor promo and, whether
(10:53):
it's during a show season orwhatever it may be, we extend
that to our customers, we makethem aware of it and I feel like
that's consistent and it hasbeen.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Are you laughing at me?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
No, I'm not at all laughing at you.
I'm smiling because before wehit the record button we were
talking about your recent tripto Europe and my having grown up
in Germany.
A broad overgeneralization isthat Germans or Europeans are
(11:42):
more orderly and Americans aremore entrepreneurial.
Right, and part of myattraction to making the United
States my home for the last 40plus years and becoming a US
citizen is this entrepreneurialspirit.
And in our gift and homeindustry that entrepreneurial
spirit is especially well andalive because we have, you know,
we have thousands of smaller,you know of startup or 10 to 15
(12:09):
year old brands where the owneris this creative dynamo and that
creates wonderful product andwonderful merchandising ideas
and wonderful, you know,creativity.
Uh, and those kinds of cats arehard to pin down.
And you, with a German trafficcop, you know, everybody stop at
(12:32):
a red light and everybody go ata green light.
So it's a balancing act.
I feel like right, I totallyagree that a protocol would be a
lovely thing and I'm imaginingmyself.
You know we're going to theGHTA conference next week as of
the recording here, and I couldjust imagine myself in a room of
(12:56):
200, you know, 100 sales agencyfolks and 100 vendor brands.
Let's sit around a table andcreate a protocol together.
It'll be a food fight.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
It will be a food fight.
We just won't have any food onthe table.
You know, I think about thisand this is what a struggle is
and it's not, you know, poor us,this side of the industry,
because we really want to evolveand give.
The ultimate thing is to getour customers more successful.
The more successful they are,the more ideas we give them, the
(13:29):
more we create product that isright for them, is going to make
them grow.
That's the one thing.
I would think the vendors, theagencies and fair, we all have
that same goal we want ourcustomers to have money to spend
, to be successful and do greatthings in this country for
everybody.
So I think you know, like, say,our website, our protocol on
(13:54):
our website is it's there.
It's a great website.
We've invested a lot of moneyin it.
It's our third line of defenseI say.
I always say we're on the road.
We should be on the road in ourshowroom and then online.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
But our online system is that order comes through, it
goes to the rep, the rep has toevaluate it, approve it and
take it through the follow-up.
And I think someinconsistencies we see is if an
order goes direct to a vendor,either through FARE or to them,
what is the protocol that we canset up that's consistent?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Does the rep even know about it right?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Exactly.
And listen, I think there hasto be some consistency.
Okay, it comes in that way.
Let's set a 24 or 48 hourperiod where the rep gets to
review it and then release it.
You know there, there just hasto.
We have a protocol.
I don't think everybody on theother side has the same protocol
(14:51):
and that is kind of like a foodfight, Right?
Speaker 1 (14:54):
right right.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
And that creates confusion for the customer.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
That's right.
That's for the retail buyer.
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You're exactly right.
(15:46):
And you know, one thing that I'mvery excited about in the gift
and home industry is the factthat we have gotten better as an
industry in the last 10, 20years in terms of being more
collaborative, more open, moretransparent, sharing with each
other.
I remember 10, 20 years ago,everybody was like this, you
(16:07):
know, like no, I'm not going totell you what I'm doing, you
know.
I'm not going to show you myproduct.
I'm not going to show you mypolicies or protocols.
I'm going to do it and I'mgoing to try to be better than
you.
Right, that's right, and Ithink that is the power of you
know, trade associations,getting the different
(16:29):
stakeholders together around atable more and more.
So you're absolutely right, wedo need to.
What else can?
What else can, what else areyou telling your reps to do in
this more complicated, complexworld than because many of them
(16:51):
are probably holding on to it?
But 10 years ago it was easier,right?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Sure, and I think 10 years ago it was a lot easier
because you weren't competingwith anybody.
The rep was just out theregetting the orders they would.
They'd have set appointments.
Then they'd be stopping in atnew accounts and it was
different because there was nocompetition.
They still have the same exactjob to do Set those appointments
.
While they're out of thatappointment on the ride home, oh
(17:20):
, I see a store I'm going tostop in, I'm going to introduce
myself.
None of that has changed.
Nor'll throw something outthere.
I hate bestsellers.
I don't believe in them.
That seems counterintuitive.
(17:52):
Bestseller in Philadelphia,pennsylvania, is not a
bestseller in New York.
So it's our job as the peopleon the street to go in there and
be like you know what youshould have.
This, this and this and you'regoing to create these are going
to become your bestsellers,that's right.
So it's individualizing eachcustomer, and that is the beauty
(18:16):
of knowing your territory,knowing your customers and being
there.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
You know, I love that you said that because, on the
one hand, of course, there isvalue to know what a brand's
bestsellers are and it isabsolutely important to also be
very conscious of the reasonsthat make it a bestseller may
not apply to this individualstore, right, there may be a
(18:42):
regional chain having it as anend cap or something like that,
right, that's why it's abestseller.
It's not going to be abestseller in Chestnut Hill,
pennsylvania.
Right, and I think that is oneof the key values that a local
sales rep provides that they'rein the store and they can help
(19:03):
with the merchandising.
And you know, that's why avendor that has a good, you know
that has a great catalog,online catalog, paper website,
makes it easy to buy.
That's great, but that is notenough.
(19:24):
That is not the same as asalesperson walking into the
store and saying you know what,this glass is great for
everybody else, but you needthis one in the smaller or
bigger size or in a color orwhatever, because it would fit
really well on that display youhave over there.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Right and that's time physically spent somewhere
Right and building thatrelationship.
Because I always tell the storyI bought Toyotas for years.
I bought Toyotas because I lovethis guy.
I don't think I really liked aToyota.
To be quite honest with you, Iwas thinking the other day how
(20:03):
many Toyotas have we bought fromthis man?
I think it's like over 11.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Because I love this man, because you like the
salesperson.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I love the salesperson.
I'll never forget the firsttime I met him.
He walked outside to show mesomething and he said to me walk
away.
And I looked at him like whatdid you just say to me?
And he said do you need the cartoday?
And I said, no, I mean, this isgoing back a long time I said no
and he goes okay, leave, I'lltalk to you later.
And we have built such arelationship with this man
(20:38):
because of his approach.
He was an ex-Philadelphia copselling cars calm, nice.
I would refer anybody to him.
And I think that's theimportance of the relationship
and the trust and the investmentsomebody else makes.
And I don't think, you know,we're in this time right now
(20:59):
where sales aren't great andeverybody wants to know what
they're doing wrong and it's notthat anybody's necessarily
doing anything wrong, it's justa bad time.
But you take this bad time andyou be present, whether you have
an appointment or don't have anappointment, you be present to
build the relationship Becausethe return on the investment for
(21:21):
that is going to be huge whenthe chaos dies down.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
So I think that you know that's that physical
investment, that value.
And don't get me wrong, I don'tthink a rep should be driving
four hours to pop in.
I also don't think a rep shouldhave a territory-.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
For a $50 order that will never buy more than $100 a
year right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
So there is that part of that and that's where the
benefit comes in of the websites, whether it be the vendor fair,
that's where that comes in.
So I mean, I do think there's abalance to it.
But I also think a rep'sterritory shouldn't be four
hours away, but that's a wholeother topic, you know it has to
(22:14):
be strategically defined.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
You know it has to be strategically defined.
You know I jotted down the worddisintermediation just because
I love that word.
No, when you and I talked amonth ago about you said sales
reps are afraid of being cut outof the transaction.
Right, so private equity peopleuse the word disintermediation
(22:44):
and I love it.
But are your salespeople lessafraid today, now that we're
sort of five, ten years into theevolution of digital channels,
participating more and more?
Or is the field growing orabating?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
I'm going to be honest, I don't experience that
as much in our business.
I think it's real for a lot ofpeople, for a lot of people, but
I think it's also back to youknow.
(23:25):
Some things I will say to ourreps are the vendor has to stay
in business and if we're notgrowing with them, they need
other venues as well.
So I think the educationprocess is super helpful for all
of us and I think that that's abig disconnect in our industry.
(23:45):
Going back to holdingeverything tight, and I don't
know if necessarily it's theripple effect from that, but if
I sat down I always wonder Doyour sales rep really know
what's going on with the vendor?
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Does the vendor really know what's going on with
us all the time, Right?
And I think that there's a lackof open and honest
communication and sharingtransparencies that we actually
all understand.
Like there are times, you know,it'll be a smaller vendor and
that smaller vendor is panickedfor money and they are really
(24:24):
reaching out to the reps all thetime when the reps should be on
the road and we have an opencommunication policy.
Our vendors can contact ourreps whenever.
But I think to understand, likewe'll say to our reps nobody's
financially backing them, Right,so understand that.
Like we'll say to our repsnobody's financially backing
(24:45):
them, so understand that.
And I think that's, you know, weall have different levels of
vendors, agencies I think, abetter understanding of who we
all are and how we operate.
Like I was on a call last weekand the vendor said I'm always
afraid when the phone rings I'mgetting fired.
And I was so shocked to hearthat, Like I never in a million
years would have thought of thatand I was like it was like a
(25:06):
light bulb moment for me.
Like if they feel that way, whoelse feels it that way?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Right, right, I think what you just said is super
important that any business,right, any business owner you as
the leader of Symbolist, thevendor owner, founder of a
consumer products company, anybusiness or employee for that
(25:35):
matter knows what they know andhas their goals and their ways
to go after it.
And all of us need other people, right, you know inside the
company, you know the product,people need the sales, people
need the operations, people Fromone company to another.
(25:57):
You know you have outsideservice providers, you have
customers to another.
You know you have outsideservice providers, you have
customers.
Everybody depends on each otherand we all and this happens
inside families right, we allthink that this one is not
listening to me and that one ismaking that mistake and nobody
understands me.
(26:18):
And the only way to make itbetter is better collaboration
through better transparency,through being vulnerable and say
, yeah, I don't have all theanswers and I'm afraid you're
going to fire me and you'reprobably afraid of something
else, right?
So how do we collaborate and behonest, open with each other?
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I love that.
You said you have to bevulnerable, and that's something
I've really learned.
You can't sit there and fake it.
You have to be vulnerable andyou have to own it and you have
to say what's going on.
I don't think a vendor of ourscould say that I wouldn't be
(27:06):
like you know what.
We totally messed up.
You're right, you are 100%right, and I think that we have
to acknowledge that more than wedo, and I think on both sides
all sides we have to acknowledgethat.
I'll even throw in fair shouldacknowledge some of the things
(27:27):
that have happened.
I think we all, instead of likeclawing to get to the top I
always forget the quote AndyBurek always says it it's a
rising tide, is it?
A rising tide raises all ships.
That's right.
I really wish we could do thattogether.
Like I know, I have greatpartnerships with other agencies
.
A vendor comes to me.
(27:48):
It's not right for us.
I send it to somebody else, doan intro, Like if we could all
be more transparent and morevulnerable, even to say I'm
failing this vendor.
I think it's a better fit withsomebody else.
How do we, how do we help thatvendor to get them to somebody
else and vice versa, Like it hasto be an open collaboration of
(28:11):
nobody's ever going to tell meanybody's perfect, we're all
going to mess up, we're allgoing to fail, we're.
We're going to fail each other.
And you know, either we get tothe other side of that
collectively or we don't.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
So I would love personally to see more of that
in the industry.
More of you know as I refer toit as playing nice in the
sandbox.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Right, you know that's.
That's probably a great endingline to this conversation that
we should just all play nicewith each other in the sandbox.
Do the things we were taught inkindergarten.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
That's exactly right, be fair and nice and open?
Speaker 1 (28:55):
No, but I think in terms of business, look,
business obviously is tougherthan a sandbox, right, because
people go out of business,people lose their livelihood if
things don't go right.
But I think, especially becausethe stakes are higher, I think
(29:17):
that makes it even moreimportant to collaborate and be
transparent and be vulnerable.
But I love the way in which youdescribe how you're coaching
your sales team and alsoapproaching the conversations
with vendors and brands tofigure it out together.
(29:42):
Nobody is, you know.
There's not an us versus them.
There's an us.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Thank you so much for hopping on this podcast episode
.
Hey, folks wanted to reach outto you one-on-one.
Where's a good place for themto find you?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah, they can.
You can go to LinkedIn.
My email is klister atsymbolistgroupcom, and if you
forgot that, just go to thesymbolistgroupcom website and
you can find me on there too.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
You'll see a photo of Kim Leister.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
You'll see there you go, you will see a photo of me.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Thank you so much, thanks for having me Benno, have
a great day.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Thank you, take care.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Thanks, bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Thank you for listening to this episode of TGO
Podcast.
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, benno, host ofTGO podcast, there as well.
Just email Benno B-E-N-N-O atrealign4resultscom.
(30:50):
Let's keep growing.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Thank you.
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