August 1, 2024 • 28 mins
Are you looking for a Third Growth Option ℠ ?
In this episode, we explore the crucial role of continuous innovation in business. Eric offers insights on balancing technology with human interaction to enhance customer experiences and highlights the importance of viewing sales channels from the customer's perspective. We also discuss generational differences in technology adoption and how leaders can leverage tech-savvy talent to bridge these gaps. Additionally, we cover the strategic use of AI tools like ChatGPT and Microsoft's Co-Pilot, emphasizing the need for clear communication, strong partnerships, and a visionary approach to leadership in today's rapidly evolving business environment. Don't miss these valuable insights for thriving in the modern business world.
Always growing.
Benno Duenkelsbuehler
CEO & Chief Sherpa of (re)ALIGN
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer Podcast,
where we talk about all thingsgrowth, yes, even and especially
those hard parts where you shedsome skin and pick yourself up
by the bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth sherpa and OG hashtag
growth nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hi, I'm Eric Dean.
I'm the founder of WearAwareand I'm coming to you today from
Colonial Beach, virginia.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
All right, eric, so nice to have you here.
I'm Benno host.
Welcome to the Growth OptionPodcast.
I'm coming to you from MexicoCity today.
Eric, you and I have known eachother certainly crossed paths
with each other for a fewdecades now.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I am excited to have you on this podcast because I
think you bring a very valuableperspective to the home industry
B2B wholesale distributionindustry.
Home industry B2B wholesaledistribution industry.
Your career I sort of look atit in sort of three major steps.
(01:30):
The first, in your late 20s,early 30s.
You were really a practitionerin the trenches in wholesale
distribution, playing the game,as it were.
And then, 24 years ago, in 2000, you started WearAware, a
digital agency.
That has grown a lot.
(01:51):
You've been at the forefront ofbuilding a lot of digital
solutions.
And then I think it was startingin 2019, you had an almost
three-year detour with Juniper,a big sort of big, hairy project
(02:12):
funded by Blackstone PrivateEquity, which is one of the
biggest, if not the biggesttrillion-dollar assets under
management company, which endedup with bruises and lessons, to
which I just say congratulationsbecause it was a moonshot, and
(02:35):
I always say the biggest crimeis not dreaming big enough, so
you cannot be accused of thatcrime.
Thanks, thanks of that crime,thanks, thanks.
But if I may just ask, you know, sort of start with that big
(02:57):
ugly frog.
You took on a huge challengewith Juniper and in the public
eye to build a full suite of B2Bdigital sales and marketing
solutions.
Most valuable lessons.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, well, you know it's, everything you do is a
journey.
And you know, if you, if you,can't look back and take
something away from it, then itprobably wasn't worth going
there in the first place.
I take a lot back away from mymy trip with, with Juniper and
thus with International MarketCenters or Antmoor.
You know it was an opportunityto impact an industry that I had
(03:35):
grown up in and had loved for acouple of decades.
You know, starting as a productpractitioner in the industry
and moving on to a technologyand service provider.
You know, a productpractitioner in the industry and
moving on to a technology andservice provider.
It was a chance to work with acompany and people.
You know IMC and more talksabout building an exceptional
company of enduring value and Ican tell you that the people
(03:59):
that are within that companybelieve that and they're really
trying to do that.
And Juniper was a big piece.
You know, understanding that atthe core mission of connecting
buyers and sellers, that thejourney was changing.
It wasn't just the face to faceat market visits that there was
the rest of the year and withthe onset and acceleration of
digital, there was theopportunity to add value there.
You know when we had theopportunity to come on board and
(04:24):
to be part of the leadershipteam, sort of driving that and
sort of connecting buyers andsellers digitally and helping to
influence the markets as wellas create a standalone digital
experience in marketplace.
You know, it was just a greatopportunity to do it.
There was some fiercecompetition, fierce,
exceptionally well-fundedcompetition out there, and we
(04:46):
were kind of coming at it a fewyears behind the schedule, so we
had some things against us, butwe also had some things in
our favor.
It gave me the opportunity tolook at things from the other
side.
Having been a provider ofservices for 20 years, I got to
be the buyer of services, sothat made me better on my
(05:06):
original job and my current job.
It gave us the chance to reallyexplore the customers on how
they're evolving and what theirneeds are, to go forth on, to
keep up with the times and todeliver a better industry.
So it was a chance to do allthose things and I felt like it.
Um, you know, no regrets.
(05:28):
Um, certainly some things wewould have done differently, um,
but in terms of doing it, itwas just a.
You know, it's a greatopportunity to go and be part of
something that truly is.
You know, it was very ambitious, um, but it was worth it.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
But it was worth it.
So I think you are anentrepreneur first.
I think being an entrepreneuris sort of your vocation, and
(06:05):
the digital piece just happensto be the craft that you've been
practicing for the last two anda half decades.
As an entrepreneur, our job isto find clients and help clients
, but as your craft, like I said, happens to, be the digital
(06:26):
journey.
What?
Why do you think what?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
made you an entrepreneur.
Why do you love being anentrepreneur?
You know it's a great questionand I can't remember what the
stats are and how many trueentrepreneurs are out there.
There aren't a lot.
You know, and you've got toreally want it and I think
you're kind of born with thatcuriosity.
I think you're born with acertain risk tolerance.
I think you're born with theability to absorb the ups and
downs, which are certainlysharper on the entrepreneur
(06:54):
journey.
You know, and I have people whosay I'm going to be, I'm going
to start my own company, becauseI don't want to have to answer
to anybody.
I'm like well, you're in thewrong business, this is not
going to end.
Well, because you answeredeverybody well you're in the
wrong business.
This is not going to end well,because you answered everybody,
that's right.
But you know, the things thatyou do get with it are the
chance to create, the chance tobuild something, the chance to
(07:15):
really pour yourself into it.
You know it's a better fit forsome people than I think working
at sort of the more traditionalcareer path and it was a better
.
You know, I was an intern ingrad school.
I worked in corporate financein a big fortune 500 company and
said this is, this is not forme.
You know I need to go back.
So I started an entrepreneurialbusiness.
(07:36):
It failed.
Started another entrepreneurialbusiness it also failed.
Um, so, third time the charm,we uh, you know the co-founder
we started like a good idea totry one more time.
Yeah, well, it's like you know,if at first you don't succeed.
But I think that's also if youtalk to the entrepreneurs out
there.
They all have that.
You know, they have Well youknow that's how you learn,
(07:57):
that's how you keep going.
You know you learn from yourfailures.
We just talked about that andyou know, I guess you know.
If you said what's the basisfor your success, I'd say, oh,
I've been failing for a longtime.
I've been failing for threedecades.
So maybe that's maybe there's acouple of lessons we picked up
along the way.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I think there's a Churchill quote about going from
failure to failure without anyloss of enthusiasm, which
certainly.
Churchill went through severaldecades of losing election after
election, after election,before he became a prime
minister.
That is sort of held up assaving.
(08:38):
You know the Western worldRight?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Well, I think so, and yeah, I mean just you know, you
know so much of it is.
You keep showing up and you payattention to, you know, to what
you did the first time when itdidn't go right and you make a
change and hopefully you getbetter at it.
You know, I think that's notjust the overall starting of
business or running a business,it's the running a business is
(09:00):
that you know these are as youknow, these are continuous
journeys.
You know it's like it's in allcompanies, I think face this,
there's some level ofentrepreneurialism and
creativity that they have toconstantly be creating a better
experience for the customers andthey're probably constantly
failing at doing that every day.
So what do you?
What do you take from it?
What do you learn?
(09:21):
What changes do you make?
Speaker 1 (09:28):
And how do you implement it.
So let's talk a little bitabout this.
Your craft right the digitalsolutions, sales and marketing
digital solutions in the B2Bspace that you have built where
we're around in the last 24years.
And you made an interestingcomment a month ago or so when
(09:50):
we spoke about digitization anddigital influence and having to
get the mix right betweentechnology and people right,
yeah, it's not talk about thatyeah, you know it's.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
It's the kind of thing where I don't think banks
fit into neatly into buckets.
You know beto and and sort ofthe consumer product goods
industry that you and I know.
You know we talk about saleschannels, you know is that
you're getting sales throughyour sales reps.
You're getting your sales at areps, you're getting your sales
at a trade show, you're gettingyour sales online.
You're getting your salesthrough a third party
marketplace and I, for a longtime, I fundamentally believe
(10:29):
that that's not the right way tolook at it is that I think it's
better to step back and look atit from the customer.
And you know the research andexperience shows that the
customers they touch you in allthose channels.
And experience shows that thecustomers they touch you in all
those channels so the ones youknow, whether they're ordering
directly from you through adigital means or the digital
technology is influencing thatinteraction, that interaction
(10:51):
between a customer, a buyer anda seller.
You know you're going to getboth of that.
So what you want to do is makesure that you're optimizing that
journey, and so you're lookingat it.
You know, where can thetechnology make those
interactions with the customerbetter, whether it's in a pure
technology, online at 11 PM atnight, or it's face-to-face with
10,000 sales reps around thecountry that have give them the
(11:13):
tools, information so they canhave a more productive meeting,
or it's a chance to have abetter event.
You know convention, trade showand you know the technology,
you know, should make the peoplebetter.
You know, likewise, the peopleshould make the technology
better.
And if you subscribe to thatjourney and sort of that
(11:34):
never-ending journey of, youknow, failure, tweak, try it
again, fail, tweak, try it again, continually get better, then
you have to believe that.
But the key is starting fromthe customer perspective,
because if you try to break itinto convenient silos or
convenient buckets, I thinkyou're going to be missing a big
piece of it.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
And people are.
You know, certainly.
I mean I can oversimplify andjust say you know there are
technology-friendly people andtechnology-fearful people.
Certainly there's agenerational.
(12:14):
You know Gen Z and millennialsare more technology friendly and
open than Gen X or boomers.
How do you see bringing peopleinto technology?
How do you see the process ofreducing the fear around
(12:42):
technology?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I think, if you, if you focus on the outcomes, you
know what are people, what areyou trying to achieve?
You know my old boss used toalways say what are we trying to
solve?
For it's one of the things thatalways stuck with me.
You know, if you've that andthe technology is just a means
to doing it, and you know, partof the job of us as
technologists is also to makesure that that interface, that
user interface, that digitalexperience, that customer
(13:07):
experience, is simplified.
You know it's the job of thetechnologist to make the
technology accessible.
It's not the job of thecustomer to figure out.
Now, at some level you have tohave a certain desire to change
and you can't ignore the fact,like anybody who you know.
The internet, you know, is nota fad.
I think we all learned that 25years ago or 20 years ago.
(13:27):
You know artificialintelligence is here to stay.
So these things, you know youcan't.
You know you can't stop thetides, but you know to
understand.
I think if I were fearful, Iwould, you know.
I think it's really importantone to pick good partners or
good advisors, whether that'sinternal, on your staff or its
external partners, to make itvery clear to them.
(13:48):
Here's what I want to do Ifyou're the leader of one of
those companies.
Here's what we're trying toachieve, here's what we're
trying to solve for this is theexperience I want our customer
to have.
I want them to have thisjourney as they go through their
process of buying, experiencing, using our products or our
services.
And then the you know,particularly if you hire good
people, they can make itaccessible their job.
(14:10):
And you know, if I were a likeI am, you know, an aging Gen Xer
, you know, maybe I go out andfind that Gen Y or you know Gen
Z or who is great at this stuff,and then it's just important to
people want to do a good joband it's one of the things that,
you know, I've always felt wassuper critical is just to make
(14:30):
sure that they understand whatthe goals are in very simple
terms, and then their job is tohelp create the user experience,
the interface, so that it isaccessible to people and it's
not scary.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
And you know you mentioned AI I.
You know there isn't a linkedinsocial media post or a
conversation that uh, uh vistage, or I think you're in ypo right
, are you?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
uh, I'm not.
I was in vistage for for anumber of years.
Okay, yeah, so I'm familiarwith that so.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So there isn't a conversation in those circles
that doesn't?
You know where the, where thetwo letters AI don't come up,
and I view those conversationsoftentimes remind me of
conversations you know you and Ihad 30 years ago or in the 80s
(15:27):
and 90s, about computers.
Well, that's just going to becomputerized, and computers were
like this big, amorphous thingthat we were trying to
understand when we were going tocollege, and it just ended up
becoming sort of the Excel sheetis the old legal pad and the
(15:48):
computer is.
I mean, today, computers arethe one of the tools we use.
I see ai as one of the toolsthat is, we're already using.
Whether we know it or not, it'sembedded in.
So much.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I completely agree.
Um, and before you said it, Iwas going to say it's a tool,
they're all tools and you know,the good news is is that there
are very talented tool makersout there, whether it's
Microsoft or Google or Applethat are embedding these in.
So you're not going to have tobe an expert in AI because
you're going to be.
(16:25):
You're going to have access tothese tools.
You're going to have access tothese tools and if what we just
talked about, if these people doa good job of making these
tools accessible andunderstandable, then they're
going to be accessible and youwill be able to use them.
It'll just put more emphasis onwhat I talked about earlier is
what are you trying to do withit?
Where do you want to get to?
And then, how do you use thetool?
(16:46):
You know and in my world, coding, you know, three, four years
ago, pretty hard to finddevelopers during the beginning
of the pandemic.
It was very, very difficult,very expensive.
Well, there's some things thatare changing now is that some of
the you know AI is making.
You know, in some ways, the newcoding language is English, you
(17:08):
know, or Spanish, or whereveryou happen to be sitting, coding
language is English you know,or Spanish, or wherever you
happen to be sitting.
It's the ability to frame theproblem and be able to iterate
to find your solution.
You don't have to understandadvanced calculus to do it.
You won't have to understandyou know 16 different coding
languages to do it, because theAI will help you.
You will still have to have arigorous ability to think
(17:34):
logically, to understand yoursolution of what you're trying
to get to and to help the AIiterate to get there.
It's just going to be a toolthat makes it's what I said
earlier.
It's going to be a tool thatmakes the people better, and
then the people in turn aregoing to train the AI and it
will get better term are goingto train the AI and it will get
better.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
In my day job when I'm not podcasting the other 90
or 110% of my time I guess we doevaluations for clients, growth
evaluations and road mappingstrategy.
I asked chat, gpt or co-piloton Microsoft hey, write me a
(18:17):
growth evaluation for a specificclient.
And I had just finished writingthe growth evaluation for the
specific client and co-pilotsort of bullet pointed a lot of
the things that I had put intothe growth evaluation.
I'm like, okay, that's prettysmart.
And then I asked so how are yougoing to do that?
(18:40):
And it sort of gave answers thatare not really executionable or
that are not enough forexecuting unassumptionable
meaning or that are not enoughfor executing because it doesn't
bridge the gap between the wordand the person that will
actually do it.
Right, it doesn't.
Uh, you know, it sort of gives,you know it doesn't build
(19:03):
enough context for creativityand innovation to actually
execute it.
But, all right, so you're backin the saddle as chairman of
where, where the company youfounded co-founded, or founded
(19:24):
co-founded back in the day didit with a, with a, with a
partner.
Yep, what are you most excitedabout?
What are you most excited about, uh?
What are you most excited about?
For wear, aware, uh, movingforward I think it's.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
It's a great time to be in the business we're in.
You know, um, yeah, before aiwas the buzzword, digital
transformation, probably.
One was certainly top five, andwe're in the digital
transformation business ofhelping companies use the
technology, use these tools inorder to get better, um, and to
solve problems.
And so what I like about it isyou know whether it's my,
(19:55):
particularly my experience withJuniper you get a different
perspective at 30,000 feet thanyou do at 30 feet or three feet
when you're, you know, hackingthrough the grass of the
day-to-day business.
So it helps me with aperspective that I'm blessed to
have a really talentedmanagement team at WearAware.
So it helps me with aperspective that I'm blessed to
have a really talentedmanagement team at Wear Aware,
so I don't necessarily have tobe in the day to day.
So it gives me the opportunityto sort of look from above and
(20:19):
make sure you know.
Things that I worry about areculture, innovation, are we
focusing on the right things?
Capital allocation, those typesof things, other opportunities
that are out there, the abilityto I like to tell stories.
I've been accused of managementby metaphor, so you get to come
in and tell a good story, butit's, you know, to make sure
(20:41):
that everybody gets it.
What are we trying to do?
Can we boil it down intosomething simple so that
everybody understands?
You know one of the.
I love being an entrepreneur,benno, but the best job I ever
had was in the military.
I was a platoon leader, age 22.
And the military does somethere's just some great training
.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I was only in for four years.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
But one of the things that I always understood are
that they train and they justbeat into you Is that when
you're creating orders, whenyou're receiving orders from
above in business, it would bereceiving orders, you know,
instructions or needs orrequirements from the customer,
yes, and then you're, you're,you're sending it down to your
subordinates in the military andit would be to your employees
(21:24):
and your team members, and thatis.
They had a concept calledcommander's intent, which is
before.
You gave the specifics hey, Iwant you to go three kilometers
to the west and climb this hilland occupy it.
You say that what the generalwants to do, the commander, his
intent, is to, you know, capturethis general geography.
So it's a very, very high level.
(21:46):
This is what we're trying to doand that went all the way
through down so that everybody,including the lowest ranking
soldier, knew what the plan was.
So one they truly.
You know every decision.
You know we all make thousandsof decisions a day and our
employees are making thousandsof little decisions.
Well, if they know at the basewhat is most important and what
(22:06):
the commander wants, what ismost important for our customer,
you know what we are trying toachieve as a company at, we're
Aware they will all make betterdecisions.
You know, can we solve for that?
So you know I'm excited aboutnot having to be in the absolute
day-to-day but be able to focuson things like that.
Is that, how can we get themessaging down?
How can we institutionalizethat into our processes, into
(22:32):
the services that we go?
Because I think we can givemuch better service and
performance and deliver betterresults for our customers if we
do that.
So that's something I learned30 years ago in the Army that
still is absolutely asapplicable today in a completely
different field.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Is there a time that you can point to sort of an aha
moment where you became aware ofyou know what I love.
You know mano a mano warfare of.
You know like in in the earlydays of you know what I love.
You know mano a mano warfareyou know like in the early days
of.
You know, in your 20s and 30s,you know you're at, as you said,
(23:12):
flying at a higher altitude,and was there a point where that
you can remember sort offlipping a switch or was it a
(23:33):
dimmer switch of going fromthree feet Loving three foot
mano a mano versus 30,000 foot?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I don't know if it's a switch and I think you still
need to have the ability to getdown into the details sometimes.
You know one of the thingsthat's really important, and I
think it's really important, youknow, in our company, for our
leaders and I think any companyis to model is you can't be so
high in the clouds that you'renot willing to get down and put
in the work, because that's theother part of the
entrepreneurial journey is I'veyet to see anybody do it without
(24:05):
intense work and it's workaround the clock.
And you know, for us as leaders, to model that to our younger
people who are looking to us asexamples, you know, and also
just to make sure that thecustomers say, hey, ok, you know
the executives of the companyare also very invested in our
success and they're payingattention.
So you know, I think you stillneed to be able to get down.
(24:28):
You know the.
I don't know if it's flipping.
I would say it's more like adimmer.
I think it's you know, you gainmore credibility with yourself,
you get more confident in yourability to provide that higher
level guidance with experiencewith failure.
That higher level guidance withexperience with failure, you
(24:48):
know just sort of the product ofthree decades of you know being
down there at three feet to beable to do it.
I also tell you, though, isthat one thing that never goes
away and you know you and I havebeen in sales at times If you
don't get a charge and a thrillof closing a deal, making the
sale, delivering a fabulousresult, you need to find a
different job.
(25:08):
You need to find a differentjob.
There's nothing that replacesthat feeling.
That charge that goes throughyou Is that wow, that feeling
that that's that charge thatgoes through you, whether you're
a sales guy closing the job, ifyou're a delivery guy, getting
your customer to say this is thebest thing I've ever seen and
(25:30):
we are getting fabulous resultsfrom it.
So, you know, basically rootedin results.
If you can't take pride andenergy and take energy from the
result, then you're in the wrongfield.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
I agree with you, eric.
This was a lovely conversation.
I believe just based on yourentrepreneurial drive, your
ability to, or kind of your lovefor the game ability to, or
(26:10):
kind of your love for the gamethat you know you'll continue to
bring great perspectives andsolutions to the industry.
If you have any closing wordsof wisdom, here's your chance,
eric.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
You know, Ben, I don't know that I do.
Thank you for having me andthanks for you for doing the
third growth option.
I think it's a great servicethat you provide here and it's a
chance for everybody to learn.
I know I've learned as I'velistened to your audience, you
know.
I would just repeat that it's ajourney and I think you're
defined by your failures as muchas you're defined by your
successes, as long as you learnfrom them and you take the time
(26:48):
to be introspective andunderstand.
You know what went right, whatwent wrong and move forward and
and and adjust.
Um, persistence is the name ofthe game.
Just keep getting better everyday and have some fun while you
do it.
You know you spend a third ofyour life working, so you you
better better enjoy what you'redoing and who you're doing it
with.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
I hear you.
Thank you so much, eric.
There is one I forgot to askthis If folks wanted to reach
out to you, what is the best wayto find you?
Is it the wear aware website oris it LinkedIn?
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, I probably find you.
Is it, uh, the wear awarewebsite or is it linkedin?
Uh, yeah, I, I probably.
Um, you can get me through mylinkedin, or, um, also, just
edan at wearawarecom.
Um is, uh, okay, that's theemail that I use the most and
happy to talk to anybody awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Thank you so much, er Eric.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Okay, thanks, benno Enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Thank you for listening to this episode of TGO
Podcast.
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, Benno, host ofTGO podcast, there as well.
Just email Benno B-E-N-N-O atrealignforresultscom.
(28:09):
Let's keep growing, Thank you.
Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer Podcast,
where we talk about all thingsgrowth, yes, even and especially
those hard parts where you shedsome skin and pick yourself up
by the bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth sherpa and OG hashtag
growth nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hi, I'm Eric Dean.
I'm the founder of WearAwareand I'm coming to you today from
Colonial Beach, virginia.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
All right, eric, so nice to have you here.
I'm Benno host.
Welcome to the Growth OptionPodcast.
I'm coming to you from MexicoCity today.
Eric, you and I have known eachother certainly crossed paths
with each other for a fewdecades now.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I am excited to have you on this podcast because I
think you bring a very valuableperspective to the home industry
B2B wholesale distributionindustry.
Home industry B2B wholesaledistribution industry.
Your career I sort of look atit in sort of three major steps.
(01:30):
The first, in your late 20s,early 30s.
You were really a practitionerin the trenches in wholesale
distribution, playing the game,as it were.
And then, 24 years ago, in 2000, you started WearAware, a
digital agency.
That has grown a lot.
(01:51):
You've been at the forefront ofbuilding a lot of digital
solutions.
And then I think it was startingin 2019, you had an almost
three-year detour with Juniper,a big sort of big, hairy project
(02:12):
funded by Blackstone PrivateEquity, which is one of the
biggest, if not the biggesttrillion-dollar assets under
management company, which endedup with bruises and lessons, to
which I just say congratulationsbecause it was a moonshot, and
(02:35):
I always say the biggest crimeis not dreaming big enough, so
you cannot be accused of thatcrime.
Thanks, thanks of that crime,thanks, thanks.
But if I may just ask, you know, sort of start with that big
(02:57):
ugly frog.
You took on a huge challengewith Juniper and in the public
eye to build a full suite of B2Bdigital sales and marketing
solutions.
Most valuable lessons.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, well, you know it's, everything you do is a
journey.
And you know, if you, if you,can't look back and take
something away from it, then itprobably wasn't worth going
there in the first place.
I take a lot back away from mymy trip with, with Juniper and
thus with International MarketCenters or Antmoor.
You know it was an opportunityto impact an industry that I had
(03:35):
grown up in and had loved for acouple of decades.
You know, starting as a productpractitioner in the industry
and moving on to a technologyand service provider.
You know, a productpractitioner in the industry and
moving on to a technology andservice provider.
It was a chance to work with acompany and people.
You know IMC and more talksabout building an exceptional
company of enduring value and Ican tell you that the people
(03:59):
that are within that companybelieve that and they're really
trying to do that.
And Juniper was a big piece.
You know, understanding that atthe core mission of connecting
buyers and sellers, that thejourney was changing.
It wasn't just the face to faceat market visits that there was
the rest of the year and withthe onset and acceleration of
digital, there was theopportunity to add value there.
You know when we had theopportunity to come on board and
(04:24):
to be part of the leadershipteam, sort of driving that and
sort of connecting buyers andsellers digitally and helping to
influence the markets as wellas create a standalone digital
experience in marketplace.
You know, it was just a greatopportunity to do it.
There was some fiercecompetition, fierce,
exceptionally well-fundedcompetition out there, and we
(04:46):
were kind of coming at it a fewyears behind the schedule, so we
had some things against us, butwe also had some things in
our favor.
It gave me the opportunity tolook at things from the other
side.
Having been a provider ofservices for 20 years, I got to
be the buyer of services, sothat made me better on my
(05:06):
original job and my current job.
It gave us the chance to reallyexplore the customers on how
they're evolving and what theirneeds are, to go forth on, to
keep up with the times and todeliver a better industry.
So it was a chance to do allthose things and I felt like it.
Um, you know, no regrets.
(05:28):
Um, certainly some things wewould have done differently, um,
but in terms of doing it, itwas just a.
You know, it's a greatopportunity to go and be part of
something that truly is.
You know, it was very ambitious, um, but it was worth it.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
But it was worth it.
So I think you are anentrepreneur first.
I think being an entrepreneuris sort of your vocation, and
(06:05):
the digital piece just happensto be the craft that you've been
practicing for the last two anda half decades.
As an entrepreneur, our job isto find clients and help clients
, but as your craft, like I said, happens to, be the digital
(06:26):
journey.
What?
Why do you think what?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
made you an entrepreneur.
Why do you love being anentrepreneur?
You know it's a great questionand I can't remember what the
stats are and how many trueentrepreneurs are out there.
There aren't a lot.
You know, and you've got toreally want it and I think
you're kind of born with thatcuriosity.
I think you're born with acertain risk tolerance.
I think you're born with theability to absorb the ups and
downs, which are certainlysharper on the entrepreneur
(06:54):
journey.
You know, and I have people whosay I'm going to be, I'm going
to start my own company, becauseI don't want to have to answer
to anybody.
I'm like well, you're in thewrong business, this is not
going to end.
Well, because you answeredeverybody well you're in the
wrong business.
This is not going to end well,because you answered everybody,
that's right.
But you know, the things thatyou do get with it are the
chance to create, the chance tobuild something, the chance to
(07:15):
really pour yourself into it.
You know it's a better fit forsome people than I think working
at sort of the more traditionalcareer path and it was a better
.
You know, I was an intern ingrad school.
I worked in corporate financein a big fortune 500 company and
said this is, this is not forme.
You know I need to go back.
So I started an entrepreneurialbusiness.
(07:36):
It failed.
Started another entrepreneurialbusiness it also failed.
Um, so, third time the charm,we uh, you know the co-founder
we started like a good idea totry one more time.
Yeah, well, it's like you know,if at first you don't succeed.
But I think that's also if youtalk to the entrepreneurs out
there.
They all have that.
You know, they have Well youknow that's how you learn,
(07:57):
that's how you keep going.
You know you learn from yourfailures.
We just talked about that andyou know, I guess you know.
If you said what's the basisfor your success, I'd say, oh,
I've been failing for a longtime.
I've been failing for threedecades.
So maybe that's maybe there's acouple of lessons we picked up
along the way.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I think there's a Churchill quote about going from
failure to failure without anyloss of enthusiasm, which
certainly.
Churchill went through severaldecades of losing election after
election, after election,before he became a prime
minister.
That is sort of held up assaving.
(08:38):
You know the Western worldRight?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Well, I think so, and yeah, I mean just you know, you
know so much of it is.
You keep showing up and you payattention to, you know, to what
you did the first time when itdidn't go right and you make a
change and hopefully you getbetter at it.
You know, I think that's notjust the overall starting of
business or running a business,it's the running a business is
(09:00):
that you know these are as youknow, these are continuous
journeys.
You know it's like it's in allcompanies, I think face this,
there's some level ofentrepreneurialism and
creativity that they have toconstantly be creating a better
experience for the customers andthey're probably constantly
failing at doing that every day.
So what do you?
What do you take from it?
What do you learn?
(09:21):
What changes do you make?
Speaker 1 (09:28):
And how do you implement it.
So let's talk a little bitabout this.
Your craft right the digitalsolutions, sales and marketing
digital solutions in the B2Bspace that you have built where
we're around in the last 24years.
And you made an interestingcomment a month ago or so when
(09:50):
we spoke about digitization anddigital influence and having to
get the mix right betweentechnology and people right,
yeah, it's not talk about thatyeah, you know it's.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
It's the kind of thing where I don't think banks
fit into neatly into buckets.
You know beto and and sort ofthe consumer product goods
industry that you and I know.
You know we talk about saleschannels, you know is that
you're getting sales throughyour sales reps.
You're getting your sales at areps, you're getting your sales
at a trade show, you're gettingyour sales online.
You're getting your salesthrough a third party
marketplace and I, for a longtime, I fundamentally believe
(10:29):
that that's not the right way tolook at it is that I think it's
better to step back and look atit from the customer.
And you know the research andexperience shows that the
customers they touch you in allthose channels.
And experience shows that thecustomers they touch you in all
those channels so the ones youknow, whether they're ordering
directly from you through adigital means or the digital
technology is influencing thatinteraction, that interaction
(10:51):
between a customer, a buyer anda seller.
You know you're going to getboth of that.
So what you want to do is makesure that you're optimizing that
journey, and so you're lookingat it.
You know, where can thetechnology make those
interactions with the customerbetter, whether it's in a pure
technology, online at 11 PM atnight, or it's face-to-face with
10,000 sales reps around thecountry that have give them the
(11:13):
tools, information so they canhave a more productive meeting,
or it's a chance to have abetter event.
You know convention, trade showand you know the technology,
you know, should make the peoplebetter.
You know, likewise, the peopleshould make the technology
better.
And if you subscribe to thatjourney and sort of that
(11:34):
never-ending journey of, youknow, failure, tweak, try it
again, fail, tweak, try it again, continually get better, then
you have to believe that.
But the key is starting fromthe customer perspective,
because if you try to break itinto convenient silos or
convenient buckets, I thinkyou're going to be missing a big
piece of it.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
And people are.
You know, certainly.
I mean I can oversimplify andjust say you know there are
technology-friendly people andtechnology-fearful people.
Certainly there's agenerational.
(12:14):
You know Gen Z and millennialsare more technology friendly and
open than Gen X or boomers.
How do you see bringing peopleinto technology?
How do you see the process ofreducing the fear around
(12:42):
technology?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I think, if you, if you focus on the outcomes, you
know what are people, what areyou trying to achieve?
You know my old boss used toalways say what are we trying to
solve?
For it's one of the things thatalways stuck with me.
You know, if you've that andthe technology is just a means
to doing it, and you know, partof the job of us as
technologists is also to makesure that that interface, that
user interface, that digitalexperience, that customer
(13:07):
experience, is simplified.
You know it's the job of thetechnologist to make the
technology accessible.
It's not the job of thecustomer to figure out.
Now, at some level you have tohave a certain desire to change
and you can't ignore the fact,like anybody who you know.
The internet, you know, is nota fad.
I think we all learned that 25years ago or 20 years ago.
(13:27):
You know artificialintelligence is here to stay.
So these things, you know youcan't.
You know you can't stop thetides, but you know to
understand.
I think if I were fearful, Iwould, you know.
I think it's really importantone to pick good partners or
good advisors, whether that'sinternal, on your staff or its
external partners, to make itvery clear to them.
(13:48):
Here's what I want to do Ifyou're the leader of one of
those companies.
Here's what we're trying toachieve, here's what we're
trying to solve for this is theexperience I want our customer
to have.
I want them to have thisjourney as they go through their
process of buying, experiencing, using our products or our
services.
And then the you know,particularly if you hire good
people, they can make itaccessible their job.
(14:10):
And you know, if I were a likeI am, you know, an aging Gen Xer
, you know, maybe I go out andfind that Gen Y or you know Gen
Z or who is great at this stuff,and then it's just important to
people want to do a good joband it's one of the things that,
you know, I've always felt wassuper critical is just to make
(14:30):
sure that they understand whatthe goals are in very simple
terms, and then their job is tohelp create the user experience,
the interface, so that it isaccessible to people and it's
not scary.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
And you know you mentioned AI I.
You know there isn't a linkedinsocial media post or a
conversation that uh, uh vistage, or I think you're in ypo right
, are you?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
uh, I'm not.
I was in vistage for for anumber of years.
Okay, yeah, so I'm familiarwith that so.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So there isn't a conversation in those circles
that doesn't?
You know where the, where thetwo letters AI don't come up,
and I view those conversationsoftentimes remind me of
conversations you know you and Ihad 30 years ago or in the 80s
(15:27):
and 90s, about computers.
Well, that's just going to becomputerized, and computers were
like this big, amorphous thingthat we were trying to
understand when we were going tocollege, and it just ended up
becoming sort of the Excel sheetis the old legal pad and the
(15:48):
computer is.
I mean, today, computers arethe one of the tools we use.
I see ai as one of the toolsthat is, we're already using.
Whether we know it or not, it'sembedded in.
So much.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I completely agree.
Um, and before you said it, Iwas going to say it's a tool,
they're all tools and you know,the good news is is that there
are very talented tool makersout there, whether it's
Microsoft or Google or Applethat are embedding these in.
So you're not going to have tobe an expert in AI because
you're going to be.
(16:25):
You're going to have access tothese tools.
You're going to have access tothese tools and if what we just
talked about, if these people doa good job of making these
tools accessible andunderstandable, then they're
going to be accessible and youwill be able to use them.
It'll just put more emphasis onwhat I talked about earlier is
what are you trying to do withit?
Where do you want to get to?
And then, how do you use thetool?
(16:46):
You know and in my world, coding, you know, three, four years
ago, pretty hard to finddevelopers during the beginning
of the pandemic.
It was very, very difficult,very expensive.
Well, there's some things thatare changing now is that some of
the you know AI is making.
You know, in some ways, the newcoding language is English, you
(17:08):
know, or Spanish, or whereveryou happen to be sitting, coding
language is English you know,or Spanish, or wherever you
happen to be sitting.
It's the ability to frame theproblem and be able to iterate
to find your solution.
You don't have to understandadvanced calculus to do it.
You won't have to understandyou know 16 different coding
languages to do it, because theAI will help you.
You will still have to have arigorous ability to think
(17:34):
logically, to understand yoursolution of what you're trying
to get to and to help the AIiterate to get there.
It's just going to be a toolthat makes it's what I said
earlier.
It's going to be a tool thatmakes the people better, and
then the people in turn aregoing to train the AI and it
will get better term are goingto train the AI and it will get
better.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
In my day job when I'm not podcasting the other 90
or 110% of my time I guess we doevaluations for clients, growth
evaluations and road mappingstrategy.
I asked chat, gpt or co-piloton Microsoft hey, write me a
(18:17):
growth evaluation for a specificclient.
And I had just finished writingthe growth evaluation for the
specific client and co-pilotsort of bullet pointed a lot of
the things that I had put intothe growth evaluation.
I'm like, okay, that's prettysmart.
And then I asked so how are yougoing to do that?
(18:40):
And it sort of gave answers thatare not really executionable or
that are not enough forexecuting unassumptionable
meaning or that are not enoughfor executing because it doesn't
bridge the gap between the wordand the person that will
actually do it.
Right, it doesn't.
Uh, you know, it sort of gives,you know it doesn't build
(19:03):
enough context for creativityand innovation to actually
execute it.
But, all right, so you're backin the saddle as chairman of
where, where the company youfounded co-founded, or founded
(19:24):
co-founded back in the day didit with a, with a, with a
partner.
Yep, what are you most excitedabout?
What are you most excited about, uh?
What are you most excited about?
For wear, aware, uh, movingforward I think it's.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
It's a great time to be in the business we're in.
You know, um, yeah, before aiwas the buzzword, digital
transformation, probably.
One was certainly top five, andwe're in the digital
transformation business ofhelping companies use the
technology, use these tools inorder to get better, um, and to
solve problems.
And so what I like about it isyou know whether it's my,
(19:55):
particularly my experience withJuniper you get a different
perspective at 30,000 feet thanyou do at 30 feet or three feet
when you're, you know, hackingthrough the grass of the
day-to-day business.
So it helps me with aperspective that I'm blessed to
have a really talentedmanagement team at WearAware.
So it helps me with aperspective that I'm blessed to
have a really talentedmanagement team at Wear Aware,
so I don't necessarily have tobe in the day to day.
So it gives me the opportunityto sort of look from above and
(20:19):
make sure you know.
Things that I worry about areculture, innovation, are we
focusing on the right things?
Capital allocation, those typesof things, other opportunities
that are out there, the abilityto I like to tell stories.
I've been accused of managementby metaphor, so you get to come
in and tell a good story, butit's, you know, to make sure
(20:41):
that everybody gets it.
What are we trying to do?
Can we boil it down intosomething simple so that
everybody understands?
You know one of the.
I love being an entrepreneur,benno, but the best job I ever
had was in the military.
I was a platoon leader, age 22.
And the military does somethere's just some great training
.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I was only in for four years.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
But one of the things that I always understood are
that they train and they justbeat into you Is that when
you're creating orders, whenyou're receiving orders from
above in business, it would bereceiving orders, you know,
instructions or needs orrequirements from the customer,
yes, and then you're, you're,you're sending it down to your
subordinates in the military andit would be to your employees
(21:24):
and your team members, and thatis.
They had a concept calledcommander's intent, which is
before.
You gave the specifics hey, Iwant you to go three kilometers
to the west and climb this hilland occupy it.
You say that what the generalwants to do, the commander, his
intent, is to, you know, capturethis general geography.
So it's a very, very high level.
(21:46):
This is what we're trying to doand that went all the way
through down so that everybody,including the lowest ranking
soldier, knew what the plan was.
So one they truly.
You know every decision.
You know we all make thousandsof decisions a day and our
employees are making thousandsof little decisions.
Well, if they know at the basewhat is most important and what
(22:06):
the commander wants, what ismost important for our customer,
you know what we are trying toachieve as a company at, we're
Aware they will all make betterdecisions.
You know, can we solve for that?
So you know I'm excited aboutnot having to be in the absolute
day-to-day but be able to focuson things like that.
Is that, how can we get themessaging down?
How can we institutionalizethat into our processes, into
(22:32):
the services that we go?
Because I think we can givemuch better service and
performance and deliver betterresults for our customers if we
do that.
So that's something I learned30 years ago in the Army that
still is absolutely asapplicable today in a completely
different field.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Is there a time that you can point to sort of an aha
moment where you became aware ofyou know what I love.
You know mano a mano warfare of.
You know like in in the earlydays of you know what I love.
You know mano a mano warfareyou know like in the early days
of.
You know, in your 20s and 30s,you know you're at, as you said,
(23:12):
flying at a higher altitude,and was there a point where that
you can remember sort offlipping a switch or was it a
(23:33):
dimmer switch of going fromthree feet Loving three foot
mano a mano versus 30,000 foot?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I don't know if it's a switch and I think you still
need to have the ability to getdown into the details sometimes.
You know one of the thingsthat's really important, and I
think it's really important, youknow, in our company, for our
leaders and I think any companyis to model is you can't be so
high in the clouds that you'renot willing to get down and put
in the work, because that's theother part of the
entrepreneurial journey is I'veyet to see anybody do it without
(24:05):
intense work and it's workaround the clock.
And you know, for us as leaders, to model that to our younger
people who are looking to us asexamples, you know, and also
just to make sure that thecustomers say, hey, ok, you know
the executives of the companyare also very invested in our
success and they're payingattention.
So you know, I think you stillneed to be able to get down.
(24:28):
You know the.
I don't know if it's flipping.
I would say it's more like adimmer.
I think it's you know, you gainmore credibility with yourself,
you get more confident in yourability to provide that higher
level guidance with experiencewith failure.
That higher level guidance withexperience with failure, you
(24:48):
know just sort of the product ofthree decades of you know being
down there at three feet to beable to do it.
I also tell you, though, isthat one thing that never goes
away and you know you and I havebeen in sales at times If you
don't get a charge and a thrillof closing a deal, making the
sale, delivering a fabulousresult, you need to find a
different job.
(25:08):
You need to find a differentjob.
There's nothing that replacesthat feeling.
That charge that goes throughyou Is that wow, that feeling
that that's that charge thatgoes through you, whether you're
a sales guy closing the job, ifyou're a delivery guy, getting
your customer to say this is thebest thing I've ever seen and
(25:30):
we are getting fabulous resultsfrom it.
So, you know, basically rootedin results.
If you can't take pride andenergy and take energy from the
result, then you're in the wrongfield.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
I agree with you, eric.
This was a lovely conversation.
I believe just based on yourentrepreneurial drive, your
ability to, or kind of your lovefor the game ability to, or
(26:10):
kind of your love for the gamethat you know you'll continue to
bring great perspectives andsolutions to the industry.
If you have any closing wordsof wisdom, here's your chance,
eric.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
You know, Ben, I don't know that I do.
Thank you for having me andthanks for you for doing the
third growth option.
I think it's a great servicethat you provide here and it's a
chance for everybody to learn.
I know I've learned as I'velistened to your audience, you
know.
I would just repeat that it's ajourney and I think you're
defined by your failures as muchas you're defined by your
successes, as long as you learnfrom them and you take the time
(26:48):
to be introspective andunderstand.
You know what went right, whatwent wrong and move forward and
and and adjust.
Um, persistence is the name ofthe game.
Just keep getting better everyday and have some fun while you
do it.
You know you spend a third ofyour life working, so you you
better better enjoy what you'redoing and who you're doing it
with.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
I hear you.
Thank you so much, eric.
There is one I forgot to askthis If folks wanted to reach
out to you, what is the best wayto find you?
Is it the wear aware website oris it LinkedIn?
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, I probably find you.
Is it, uh, the wear awarewebsite or is it linkedin?
Uh, yeah, I, I probably.
Um, you can get me through mylinkedin, or, um, also, just
edan at wearawarecom.
Um is, uh, okay, that's theemail that I use the most and
happy to talk to anybody awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Thank you so much, er Eric.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Okay, thanks, benno Enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Thank you for listening to this episode of TGO
Podcast.
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, Benno, host ofTGO podcast, there as well.
Just email Benno B-E-N-N-O atrealignforresultscom.
(28:09):
Let's keep growing, Thank you.
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