October 13, 2021 • 42 mins
Sometimes during a divorce mediation someone makes a proposal that is so off-base it is insulting. The temptation is to get angry, yell or even storm out of the room. But maybe there is a better approach. In this episode, Divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Scott Weiner, Psychologist, Attorney and Mediator; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, discuss what happens when someone makes a crazy or even insulting proposal during a divorce negotiation.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shawn Weber (00:01):
So you ever have this happen in your office,
somebody makes a proposal. Andthen the other person says, I
can't believe you asked forthat. Welcome to the Three Wise
Men of divorce, money, psych,and law podcast. Sit down with
the California divorce experts,financial divorce consultant,
(00:22):
Mark Hill, psychologist ScottWeiner, and attorney Sean Weber,
for a frank and casualconversation about divorce,
separation, co parenting, andthe difficult decisions, real
people like you face duringthese tough times. We know that
if you're looking at divorce orseparation, it can be scary and
overwhelming. With combinedexperience of over 70 years of
(00:45):
divorce and conflict management,we are here for you and look
forward to helping by sharingour unique ideas, thoughts and
perspectives on divorce,separation and co parenting.
Mark Hill (01:08):
Yes, it's it's an insult to the person that does
if they've been insulted.
Shawn Weber (01:16):
And sometimes it is, frankly an insult, right?
Sometimes what do you what doyou do and you're the recipient
of a proposal that you feel fromyour perspective. And your
divorce case is so off base orso insulting, that you just want
to explode, or you want to walkout. You came into the room
(01:39):
feeling like okay, this issomething we could do. And then
the proposal lands like a thudlike a lead balloon on the
table.
Mark Hill (01:47):
So one thing I often do is I say, before we start
proposals or as a proposal isbeing made, in order for it to
be valuable, it has to have twothings. And perhaps the
psychologists would say threethings, it has to add value to
(02:07):
the person making? Well, theywould do that's why they're
making, right, it's got to havevalue to the person you're
making it to. And you should beable to point out what that
value is, too. And also, I sayperipherally, they have
psychologists say importantly,it should have value to the
(02:28):
family. So you making theproposal need to explain what
value it has to you what valueit has to the other person. And
is there a family? Because thatturns it around a little bit and
ask them to kind of explaintheir logic, as opposed to here
it is it's in the bag and takeit a leader.
Shawn Weber (02:50):
Well, sometimes he sounds like a mediator. You
think he might have mediate acase now? Yeah, you get a
proposal based on a set offacts, quote, unquote, that have
nothing to do with reality orvalues. They just purely
emotional, I deserve this. Ineed this, I want you to give me
(03:14):
everything. Or I want you togive me this thing that has no
rational basis in the law, or infact, they just want it.
Mark Hill (03:24):
Okay, so that's an opportunity to Okay. So how do
you turn that into anopportunity. So Mr. or Mrs.
Smith. ABC is really importantto you. I can tell, okay. Really
important to you? What would yoube willing to give to your
(03:45):
husband in order for you to beable to get ABC?
Shawn Weber (03:50):
You have a genie approach, I call it if I'm a
genie, and I can grant yourwish. Right? What would you be
willing to give up in order toget your wish, friend? Exactly.
Scott Weiner (04:01):
So if a person were to come in and as a first
offer sort of a shot across thebow, say that they're entitled
to a rather large portion ofsomebody else's income. How
(04:25):
would we structured that if weif we opine as mediators that,
that that's an undo portion?
Mark Hill (04:36):
Well, I think you can actually had some of this off
before you get to the proposalstage. And I talked to people
about avoiding the Mediterraneanmarketplace bargain. If you've
ever seen that wonderful scenein the Monty Python's Life of
Brian, where he's trying toescape from the Romans, but he's
got to buy a fake beard and agourd or something and he's
(04:58):
trying to buy the gold reallyquickly and the guy goes, No,
you've got a haggle. Offer me 10shekels, and he goes, Okay 10
shekels gets 10 shekels, what doyou think is worth at least 40.
And so, again, that kind ofargument. So starting with
(05:20):
something that has value to theother person, not just has value
to you is often the place youhave to go. If you want a
solution coming in and with alist of demands and red lines
that cannot be crossed, is verydifficult to make work in a
mediated environment,
Scott Weiner (05:40):
we can of course, we can't do that. I mean, we're
always transforming positionsinto statements of interest when
we can, I am of course,therapeutically reading the tea
leaves of the future here, asI'm
Shawn Weber (06:05):
a magic of the therapist.
Scott Weiner (06:08):
Isn't it great how I'm doing.
Shawn Weber (06:12):
But you aren't reading some things,
Scott Weiner (06:15):
yet? Well, there's that. I'm also i'm also, I mean,
I guess I'm also wondering howthe three of us are going to
manage a future event that'sgoing to look something like a
very one sided beginning set ofoffers, we operate, oftentimes
in a collaborative environment.
And when we do these hybrid,professional things that are
(06:40):
sort of, it's like we have someof that going on, but then not
others of it. It's, I find it tobe.
Mark Hill (06:50):
Well, it's confusing, because no one's absolutely
clear on their role. And and,you know, as I was thinking,
listening to Scott, I wasthinking, I think about the same
case you're talking about, andthe challenge is getting a set
of facts that's agreed upon. Ifyou don't agree, it's like Sean
(07:11):
said earlier, if you don't agreeon the pie, how can we split it
up? Well, often that there's adisagreement about what the
income stream might be. Well,let's agree upon that before we
start trying to divide it,
Shawn Weber (07:26):
but often times, you can't get them to agree on
the facts. And you'll hearpeople say, Well, you have your
truth, and I have my truth.
their perspectives will notallow them to agree on the
facts, even if it'smathematical. And so then you
have to balance Well, what istheir what you're pointing to
Scott, what is the interestneeds and values of the person
that's making the proposal andthe person is receiving the
(07:48):
proposal? And then how can wemake that fit? Okay, you have
different perspectives, you seethis totally different. You see
this differently. So what can wedo then to make it so that you
can find an agreement that willmeet both of your needs
somewhat?
Scott Weiner (08:06):
Well, I think that's elegantly said, I think
that the, the, the struggle,then, is to find some way to
allow these two sets of, quote,unquote, facts to coexist in
(08:29):
this in this pool of reasoning,and it's not necessarily a
reasonable pool, but it's, it'salmost a process pool, in which
Okay, you know, it's almost likethe physicists do this all the
time with with differentparticle reality as well, in
this universe. It's like thisand this other universe, it's
(08:50):
like that. But even though it'sseparate, because of separate
points of view, we still have tofind some way to I don't know,
regulate ourselves, if you will,to
Mark Hill (09:08):
jump in something that you said, Sure. I'm sorry.
But the numbers can't i can'tmake the numbers do anything
different. The numbers are thenumbers.
Shawn Weber (09:17):
Yeah, but I went,
Mark Hill (09:19):
well, I can't do that. But here's the number.
Here is the number there it is.
It's finite. Have you pulledmoney out of your purse mom and
not had enough to buy something?
I understand how it works. Iunderstand that. You got 23 you
don't get to buy it.
Shawn Weber (09:38):
I understand mark that that's what the numbers
say, but I still want the house.
Okay, well, I deserve this. Heneeds
Scott Weiner (09:45):
Mark already handled that mark already
handled that though. Mark saidokay. You know, you know that I
mean, the house is a finitething. Essentially. It's a
specific entity and it has acertain way. If you want that
house,
Mark Hill (09:58):
what are you willing to give up? What we
Shawn Weber (10:01):
or better yet, instead of you saying, Mark,
that math doesn't work? This iswhat the math says. Yeah. Let
them do
Mark Hill (10:10):
the math. Oh, absolutely. And I
Shawn Weber (10:13):
know you do that.
Let them figure out and so youknow, if people work with me,
sometimes I actually forced themto do the mathematics with me.
Yeah. So they can see it. Andthen I
Mark Hill (10:23):
do my Colombo act.
Scott Weiner (10:26):
One more thing.
Mark Hill (10:28):
One more thing.
You've got health insurance. Andyeah. And, and explain to me how
this is gonna work when the kidscome home? Yeah.
Shawn Weber (10:36):
how's this gonna work? Yeah. And that's really
important, because then whathappens then is the people own,
what decisions they're making.
Mark Hill (10:45):
And you know, the reality in is that in what we
do, we don't care what they do,within reason. What I mean by
that is their solution, whateverworks for their family, or the
other reformed family works forus. As long as there is that
magical, illegal concept ofinformed consent?
Shawn Weber (11:07):
Yes. We don't care what you do, as long as you
agree. Now, as
Mark Hill (11:13):
long as you agree, as long as you understand what
might happen in the legalenvironment,
Shawn Weber (11:17):
when when we started this, we were talking
about, I'm coming in as aparticipant. And my negotiation
partner comes up with a crazyproposal, and it makes me angry,
and I want to leave. I think areally important thing to think
about there is if you becomeirrational as the person that's
(11:37):
making the irrational proposal.
It's almost like you're loweringyourself to that level. And
you're making it impossible foryou to reach an agreement.
You're it's a recipe forimpasse.
Mark Hill (11:49):
Always a recipe for repeating something that
happened in your marriage. 100racks?
Shawn Weber (11:55):
Correct. So then I'm always about Okay, so they
did that's just a proposal. Theperson made a proposal you don't
like we get it, you don't likeit? That's not a proposal you
like what would your proposalbe? and force them to make a
counter proposal? You know, ormaybe not force. We don't force
a by doing it, but make it astrongly worded opinion that
(12:16):
they should make it a proposal.
Mark Hill (12:18):
Sure. And I think that people need help with that.
Yep. Yeah. Is it something thatyou can't do on the fly very
easily when you're angry? Yes.
In other words, I've gotten thistotally unreasonable proposal
from my soon to be ex spouse.
And I doubt I'm supposed to makea proposal back. Well, you want
(12:42):
to know how
Shawn Weber (12:47):
to circle
Mark Hill (12:48):
Yeah, you want? You want 6 million? Oh, I think
you're worth about one and ahalf. Yeah. It's like, you got
to have exactly, you've got toavoid that. how
Shawn Weber (12:59):
that happened to me today. I met with this couple.
And he came in with a proposaland she was so incensed that
she's like, well, then I'm notgiving you anything. Which
wasn't helpful to her. And thenof course, he was ridiculous,
too. And it wasn't helpful tohim. Yeah. And so you know, in
(13:21):
that situation, I had to kind ofgo in separate rooms with this
particular couple and help themto think more clearly. You know,
just not and not that, Oh, I'mgoing to go in there and control
how you think but what it is Iwant to, I want to everybody
take a deep breath. And thinklogically instead of
emotionally.
Mark Hill (13:37):
Right? The strategic What is your what's your
outcome? What do you mean? Yeah,I want to have everything I want
her to have nothing. What do youthink that but I want that more?
Scott Weiner (13:48):
It's okay. No, no, he's Yeah, he's he's saying
essentially, where we startedhere, that notion of you want
What? Um, I gotta say that, youknow, that in a in a litigated
environment, people do tend tostart with the extreme on their
end, and, you know, patientlylike forced the other side to
(14:12):
pull them to the middle to theextent necessary. And that, um,
that in law school, I mean,that's sort of
Shawn Weber (14:21):
Oh, yeah, you do you tell your top level what you
think you're really going toget?
Scott Weiner (14:25):
Yes, vigorous representation,
Shawn Weber (14:28):
really terrible.
negotiation. My opinion. Well,yeah, you know, I think
Scott Weiner (14:36):
it wastes a lot of time.
Shawn Weber (14:38):
Yeah. Well, it's all that the marketplace that
he's talking about, you're justbouncing back and forth or used
car sale. Yeah, you know, butbut if you if you make it about
interest, needs and values, whatare my interests here, and then
you articulate that to the otherside, like Mark was suggesting,
and you think about what theirneeds are, you know, then you
can probably get somewhere. Imean, the whole premise of our
(14:59):
podcast, guys That you need theemotional, the legal and the
financial that kind of cometogether for there to be a
settlement. Right, right. Yeah.
And I think that's true andpeople are making you know, if
you get this proposal, it throwsyou off emotionally it's gonna
be hard for you to agree tosomething later.
Mark Hill (15:13):
And the other thing the one thing I've noticed is
that when couples do this, theyare focused on each other. In
other words, it's punishment orit's retribution in some form is
what the offer is a really badyou know, yeah. And so one thing
I done is and this may befrowned upon but I use the
(15:36):
children mercilessly on the showso I'm gonna live in the mansion
and you want him to live in atwo bedroom condo in somewhere
Okay, and you want your childrento go back and forth and see the
differences that how is thatgoing to work for your kids
(16:01):
bring the focus away from thecouple on to the children and
the impact this kind ofsuggestion might have that
there's no kids don't have thatopportunity. But that is
something that
Scott Weiner (16:13):
you can no no but where you went there what you
did by doing that was to almostmake it impossible for them to
ignore empathy in in the processthrough the through the kids
it's like the one where we'regoing to be meeting very soon it
(16:34):
doesn't have that element andthe irrational requirements
quote unquote, being posited. Idon't know that we have that
kind of a I mean, I think thatwe're going to have to indulge
the marketplace a bit
Mark Hill (16:54):
I mean, don't you say you sometimes have to do it to
get past it
Shawn Weber (17:00):
the other thing guys you just really important
there Scott and when those veryhighly emotional cases slowing
it down? Yeah, you know, andlet's indulge in this a little
bit. This back and forth I thinkcan be really helpful.
Mark Hill (17:15):
And taking away by addressing early the hot the
things that create a heightenedemotion, is it because they're
still under the same roof? Is itbecause one on rather than has a
bad living arrangement? Is theresomething related to one of the
kids going on that we can helpthem with? Yeah, there's often
just one thing that you get pastit and everyone takes a deep
(17:37):
breath think, okay, now Now wecan really work on this because
that thing that's driving mecrazy every day went away.
Scott Weiner (17:48):
I look forward to pre briefing this particular I
mean, I'm finding myself wantingto do it right now
Shawn Weber (17:58):
temptation to do it here on our podcast. No, don't
do that. You must not do that.
Scott Weiner (18:03):
But I know I know.
But I mean, this this thisparticular one Honest to God,
I've I've been a therapist for40 years. I feel like I have a
lot to learn about dealing withthe peculiarities of this one
Shawn Weber (18:21):
well we all the cases come up like that right?
Yeah, I think you're perfectlyright. Yeah, perfectly perfectly
rational people can lose theircrap to you know, especially in
this you know, we were talkingabout this before we started the
podcast, this this environmentthat we're in with, you know,
it's kind of joking about COVIDIt's like we're suffering from
(18:41):
PTSD and we have to go back andhang out with our abuser which
is the virus right we have to goback and put masks on again and
we thought we were free and nowwe're it's we're like the
Godfather they just pull us backin. Yeah. And that is upsetting
to people and perfectly rationalfolks are losing their crap. And
(19:05):
it's easy to do. You know, so wehave to be aware of that and I
think folks when they're goingthrough this need to be aware
that this this environment thatwe're in can can make them more
volatile than they wouldnormally be and make their
partner more volatile. Okay, soanother thing I was thinking
about is the complaint. Somebodycomes in she always does this
(19:30):
and I want this and it'sterrible that she's always late
for pickups of the kids. And Iusually go back to this okay, I
hear that complaint that thatsounds a lot like a proposal.
What do you want? Well, I wanther to show up on time. Can you
put that into a proposal?
Mark Hill (19:48):
And there's two words you should never use? Always and
never
Shawn Weber (19:53):
Yeah, that mean it's all or nothing thinking
that tells me exactly.
Mark Hill (19:56):
You know, she she's all Ramsay really So you've been
married for 38 years, and shenever showed up on time. Not
once, right? 38 years. Wow. Didyou survive so long?
Shawn Weber (20:10):
Yeah. No, but I mean that all or nothing but is
that
Mark Hill (20:14):
just thinking that that puts people on the defense?
I was late this morning. Iacknowledge that. I was Sorry,
I'm late. Yeah, I was late. Youknow what, I'm not always late.
Don't try. Don't take thatsituation where I showed up late
this morning, and suggest thatI'm a recalcitrant person who's
(20:35):
never showed up on time in mywhole life, because that's not
true. And that pisses me off.
Shawn Weber (20:40):
And anyway, you're divorcing me anyway. So what do
you care?
Mark Hill (20:43):
Yeah, really.
Shawn Weber (20:46):
You know, when when these complaints happen, though,
it's a it's a proposal indisguise. And so you can dive
under that complaint and findout well, what is it that you
want to change? Okay, so you'reconcerned about punctuality. So
let's build that into ouragreement that
Scott Weiner (21:03):
I'm sitting here listening to this, and I'm
laughing, I have a relative. Andnot only is he always late, he
is always phenomenallyirresponsible. This is this is a
(21:27):
guy who's who's this is adistant relative whose parents
what? His house into a trust.
And you know, because he wasmissing payments. He is a kind
of guy
Mark Hill (21:47):
who had Okay, this one guy in the war he had, he
had like that one, he justproved my warranty
Scott Weiner (21:54):
parking tickets in the glove compartment of his
car. All right. And here's ourthere are no better. So I guess,
Mark Hill (22:04):
with CD plates, you know, the plates.
Shawn Weber (22:08):
The other thing is, when we hear a complaint, it
could be that there's a reasonfor it.
Scott Weiner (22:12):
Yeah, and I guess I guess I'm, you know, I think
that part of our, our upcomingmeeting is going to involve some
of that, some of that there's,there's there's, you know,
Shawn Weber (22:28):
but again,
Scott Weiner (22:28):
I still think that the operational beauty of
getting people to generateproposals and getting people to
recognize the interests of theother party that still works,
even with even with unreasonablepeople.
Shawn Weber (22:51):
So again, like you don't like this behavior? What
do you want to change about thebehavior? Now make a proposal?
Yeah. It's more future oriented.
Right. So whereas a complaint,
Mark Hill (23:04):
exactly, it changes the focus, remember, we can't
talk about the past.
Shawn Weber (23:09):
I always tell them talk about the past. Yeah, yeah.
Well, we've talked about a lotof stuff. And I do think, you
know, making proposals is a isan important skill that you
know, we try to teach ourclients how to do it so that
when they're done with us, theycan continue to make proposals
(23:32):
with their with their partners,especially if they have children
that they got to continue to coparent and also they can have a
more productive relationshipeven if it's not a marriage it's
it's a relationship where youcan co parent together. Yeah, I
Mark Hill (23:49):
mean, that's the the ultimate goal of the work is to
give people tools that can makethem more effective in
communicating after the processis over than they were before
they started.
Shawn Weber (24:02):
So let's do our summary then. So you get a crazy
proposal that you think isabsurd, and it insults you. So
the first thing to do is not
Mark Hill (24:10):
overreact. And don't make a crazy proposal back
Shawn Weber (24:13):
and don't make a crazy proposal the back. And
then just think rationally, eventhough it's hard. And if you
can't think rationally, findsomeone who can help you think
rationally
Mark Hill (24:24):
or even ask for a time and ask if it's okay to say
I am five minutes to considerthis and go to bed.
Scott Weiner (24:32):
You can have a response. Again, the word media
comes in again mediate, but amediated response where, you
know, when you ask for that, I'mso upset. When you ask for that,
I find that so upsetting. Itseems so unfair and unreasonable
and I'd hoped that we could, youknow, that we could come
(24:56):
together and you know, reallymove towards The middle, right
from the beginning, instead oflike this and then have to force
our way back in. However, I'mgonna try to Yeah, it's, you
know, it's okay to say you'rereally upset. I mean,
Shawn Weber (25:15):
Oh, sure. I, I am not one of these mediators that
shutdown, emotional response, Ithink, yeah, sometimes people
need, you know, people arepeople and they're going to be
emotional. And if you're amediator and you can handle a
little bit of conflict, yeah,they do a good job you need,
you're in the wrong frame,you're in the wrong environment.
So I do think there's a placefor saying what you got to say.
(25:39):
I read a quote the other day, mywife put a sticky on my
computer. And it says, Can youyou can't see it. Conflict is
inevitable. contention is achoice. And I think, you know,
why
Scott Weiner (25:57):
would she Why was she angry with you?
Shawn Weber (26:03):
said that, but I like it. Yeah, it's probably
always
Scott Weiner (26:08):
what she's saying.
And now I'm going to get intosome real contention. That is my
choice that I choose
Shawn Weber (26:17):
to attend. Yes.
There are people that choose tocontent, thank you better run
rather be a big part of theproblem and a small part of the
solution. So yes, there
Mark Hill (26:27):
are some people who are most comfortable when
they're fighting and arguing.
Shawn Weber (26:31):
But people, most people find it very unpleasant
to fight. Yes, yes, yes. And ittakes years off your life makes
you feel gross. You think aboutit all the time. Oh, I should
have said this to him. Right?
Yeah, yeah. But really, when youwhen you're able to make a
proposal that's actually ameaningful proposal proposal
(26:52):
based on rational thought. It'sa very pleasant experience, to
actually see something cometogether.
Scott Weiner (27:03):
It's creative,
Shawn Weber (27:05):
creative, it's collaborative. It's all kinds of
good. And possible, even withthat crazy person that made that
nutty proposal.
Scott Weiner (27:14):
Sometimes it is.
Shawn Weber (27:16):
So Scott,
Unknown (27:17):
that desert, candidly,
Mark Hill (27:19):
your case will end
Scott Weiner (27:20):
it will add layer another.
Mark Hill (27:25):
You can choose not to divorce, you're in it. Yeah. You
can either on your on yourcurrent role, the process that
you're involved.
Shawn Weber (27:33):
Yeah, you can do it on your terms, or the terms of a
stranger in black robes. Yep. SoScott, if I need some help, just
dealing with my emotionalresponse to that crazy proposal?
What should I do?
Scott Weiner (27:48):
Well, if you happen to want to speak with a
therapist, or a coach, who worksin mediating these divorce
situations or other situations,you can call me My name is Scott
Weiner, w e i n er, and I have aphone and I answer my own phone.
(28:11):
619-417-5743 and Mark,
Shawn Weber (28:18):
oh, Mark, if you want to, if I need somebody to
help me with the math, becauseyou know the math, the numbers
don't lie. What should I do?
Mark Hill (28:29):
You would go to this wonderful 21st century
inventions for the website. Iknow it's got hasn't worked that
out yet. Anyway, I have thiswebsite, you go to pack
divorce.com Pac, di voc.com. Andeverything you need is there
including my phone number, and Ianswer my phone,
Shawn Weber (28:51):
too. You know, I think he's worked it out. He
just doesn't like it.
Scott Weiner (28:55):
Ah, I you know, it's kind of hard to figure out
whether to whether to work moreor retire. What do you think I
should do? You guys?
Shawn Weber (29:07):
Don't need the family life?
Mark Hill (29:09):
Yeah, really. You want to make sure you die at
your desk and your agents?
Shawn Weber (29:16):
Well, if you need me to resolve this dispute
between mark and Scott, go to mywebsite, Weber dispute
resolution calm, and we canmatch you with a mediator who
can help you resolve yourdispute. That's
Scott Weiner (29:31):
gonna help Mark and I solve this thing. Yeah.
Mark Hill (29:36):
We'll just find a teenager we both trust
Shawn Weber (29:38):
there you go.com you next time.
Scott Weiner (29:46):
Thanks, guys. Bye.
Good week to you guys.
Shawn Weber (29:51):
Thanks for listening to another episode of
the three Wiseman of divorce,money, psych and law. If you
liked what you heard, be sure tosubscribe. leave us a review and
share with others who may be ina similar place. Until next
time, stay safe, healthy andfocused on a positive, bright
future. This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
(30:15):
Every family law case is unique.
So no legal, financial or mentalhealth advice is intended during
this podcast. If you need helpwith your specific situation,
feel free to schedule a time tospeak with one of us for a
personal consultation.
So you ever have this happen in your office,
somebody makes a proposal. Andthen the other person says, I
can't believe you asked forthat. Welcome to the Three Wise
Men of divorce, money, psych,and law podcast. Sit down with
the California divorce experts,financial divorce consultant,
(00:22):
Mark Hill, psychologist ScottWeiner, and attorney Sean Weber,
for a frank and casualconversation about divorce,
separation, co parenting, andthe difficult decisions, real
people like you face duringthese tough times. We know that
if you're looking at divorce orseparation, it can be scary and
overwhelming. With combinedexperience of over 70 years of
(00:45):
divorce and conflict management,we are here for you and look
forward to helping by sharingour unique ideas, thoughts and
perspectives on divorce,separation and co parenting.
Mark Hill (01:08):
Yes, it's it's an insult to the person that does
if they've been insulted.
Shawn Weber (01:16):
And sometimes it is, frankly an insult, right?
Sometimes what do you what doyou do and you're the recipient
of a proposal that you feel fromyour perspective. And your
divorce case is so off base orso insulting, that you just want
to explode, or you want to walkout. You came into the room
(01:39):
feeling like okay, this issomething we could do. And then
the proposal lands like a thudlike a lead balloon on the
table.
Mark Hill (01:47):
So one thing I often do is I say, before we start
proposals or as a proposal isbeing made, in order for it to
be valuable, it has to have twothings. And perhaps the
psychologists would say threethings, it has to add value to
(02:07):
the person making? Well, theywould do that's why they're
making, right, it's got to havevalue to the person you're
making it to. And you should beable to point out what that
value is, too. And also, I sayperipherally, they have
psychologists say importantly,it should have value to the
(02:28):
family. So you making theproposal need to explain what
value it has to you what valueit has to the other person. And
is there a family? Because thatturns it around a little bit and
ask them to kind of explaintheir logic, as opposed to here
it is it's in the bag and takeit a leader.
Shawn Weber (02:50):
Well, sometimes he sounds like a mediator. You
think he might have mediate acase now? Yeah, you get a
proposal based on a set offacts, quote, unquote, that have
nothing to do with reality orvalues. They just purely
emotional, I deserve this. Ineed this, I want you to give me
(03:14):
everything. Or I want you togive me this thing that has no
rational basis in the law, or infact, they just want it.
Mark Hill (03:24):
Okay, so that's an opportunity to Okay. So how do
you turn that into anopportunity. So Mr. or Mrs.
Smith. ABC is really importantto you. I can tell, okay. Really
important to you? What would yoube willing to give to your
(03:45):
husband in order for you to beable to get ABC?
Shawn Weber (03:50):
You have a genie approach, I call it if I'm a
genie, and I can grant yourwish. Right? What would you be
willing to give up in order toget your wish, friend? Exactly.
Scott Weiner (04:01):
So if a person were to come in and as a first
offer sort of a shot across thebow, say that they're entitled
to a rather large portion ofsomebody else's income. How
(04:25):
would we structured that if weif we opine as mediators that,
that that's an undo portion?
Mark Hill (04:36):
Well, I think you can actually had some of this off
before you get to the proposalstage. And I talked to people
about avoiding the Mediterraneanmarketplace bargain. If you've
ever seen that wonderful scenein the Monty Python's Life of
Brian, where he's trying toescape from the Romans, but he's
got to buy a fake beard and agourd or something and he's
(04:58):
trying to buy the gold reallyquickly and the guy goes, No,
you've got a haggle. Offer me 10shekels, and he goes, Okay 10
shekels gets 10 shekels, what doyou think is worth at least 40.
And so, again, that kind ofargument. So starting with
(05:20):
something that has value to theother person, not just has value
to you is often the place youhave to go. If you want a
solution coming in and with alist of demands and red lines
that cannot be crossed, is verydifficult to make work in a
mediated environment,
Scott Weiner (05:40):
we can of course, we can't do that. I mean, we're
always transforming positionsinto statements of interest when
we can, I am of course,therapeutically reading the tea
leaves of the future here, asI'm
Shawn Weber (06:05):
a magic of the therapist.
Scott Weiner (06:08):
Isn't it great how I'm doing.
Shawn Weber (06:12):
But you aren't reading some things,
Scott Weiner (06:15):
yet? Well, there's that. I'm also i'm also, I mean,
I guess I'm also wondering howthe three of us are going to
manage a future event that'sgoing to look something like a
very one sided beginning set ofoffers, we operate, oftentimes
in a collaborative environment.
And when we do these hybrid,professional things that are
(06:40):
sort of, it's like we have someof that going on, but then not
others of it. It's, I find it tobe.
Mark Hill (06:50):
Well, it's confusing, because no one's absolutely
clear on their role. And and,you know, as I was thinking,
listening to Scott, I wasthinking, I think about the same
case you're talking about, andthe challenge is getting a set
of facts that's agreed upon. Ifyou don't agree, it's like Sean
(07:11):
said earlier, if you don't agreeon the pie, how can we split it
up? Well, often that there's adisagreement about what the
income stream might be. Well,let's agree upon that before we
start trying to divide it,
Shawn Weber (07:26):
but often times, you can't get them to agree on
the facts. And you'll hearpeople say, Well, you have your
truth, and I have my truth.
their perspectives will notallow them to agree on the
facts, even if it'smathematical. And so then you
have to balance Well, what istheir what you're pointing to
Scott, what is the interestneeds and values of the person
that's making the proposal andthe person is receiving the
(07:48):
proposal? And then how can wemake that fit? Okay, you have
different perspectives, you seethis totally different. You see
this differently. So what can wedo then to make it so that you
can find an agreement that willmeet both of your needs
somewhat?
Scott Weiner (08:06):
Well, I think that's elegantly said, I think
that the, the, the struggle,then, is to find some way to
allow these two sets of, quote,unquote, facts to coexist in
(08:29):
this in this pool of reasoning,and it's not necessarily a
reasonable pool, but it's, it'salmost a process pool, in which
Okay, you know, it's almost likethe physicists do this all the
time with with differentparticle reality as well, in
this universe. It's like thisand this other universe, it's
(08:50):
like that. But even though it'sseparate, because of separate
points of view, we still have tofind some way to I don't know,
regulate ourselves, if you will,to
Mark Hill (09:08):
jump in something that you said, Sure. I'm sorry.
But the numbers can't i can'tmake the numbers do anything
different. The numbers are thenumbers.
Shawn Weber (09:17):
Yeah, but I went,
Mark Hill (09:19):
well, I can't do that. But here's the number.
Here is the number there it is.
It's finite. Have you pulledmoney out of your purse mom and
not had enough to buy something?
I understand how it works. Iunderstand that. You got 23 you
don't get to buy it.
Shawn Weber (09:38):
I understand mark that that's what the numbers
say, but I still want the house.
Okay, well, I deserve this. Heneeds
Scott Weiner (09:45):
Mark already handled that mark already
handled that though. Mark saidokay. You know, you know that I
mean, the house is a finitething. Essentially. It's a
specific entity and it has acertain way. If you want that
house,
Mark Hill (09:58):
what are you willing to give up? What we
Shawn Weber (10:01):
or better yet, instead of you saying, Mark,
that math doesn't work? This iswhat the math says. Yeah. Let
them do
Mark Hill (10:10):
the math. Oh, absolutely. And I
Shawn Weber (10:13):
know you do that.
Let them figure out and so youknow, if people work with me,
sometimes I actually forced themto do the mathematics with me.
Yeah. So they can see it. Andthen I
Mark Hill (10:23):
do my Colombo act.
Scott Weiner (10:26):
One more thing.
Mark Hill (10:28):
One more thing.
You've got health insurance. Andyeah. And, and explain to me how
this is gonna work when the kidscome home? Yeah.
Shawn Weber (10:36):
how's this gonna work? Yeah. And that's really
important, because then whathappens then is the people own,
what decisions they're making.
Mark Hill (10:45):
And you know, the reality in is that in what we
do, we don't care what they do,within reason. What I mean by
that is their solution, whateverworks for their family, or the
other reformed family works forus. As long as there is that
magical, illegal concept ofinformed consent?
Shawn Weber (11:07):
Yes. We don't care what you do, as long as you
agree. Now, as
Mark Hill (11:13):
long as you agree, as long as you understand what
might happen in the legalenvironment,
Shawn Weber (11:17):
when when we started this, we were talking
about, I'm coming in as aparticipant. And my negotiation
partner comes up with a crazyproposal, and it makes me angry,
and I want to leave. I think areally important thing to think
about there is if you becomeirrational as the person that's
(11:37):
making the irrational proposal.
It's almost like you're loweringyourself to that level. And
you're making it impossible foryou to reach an agreement.
You're it's a recipe forimpasse.
Mark Hill (11:49):
Always a recipe for repeating something that
happened in your marriage. 100racks?
Shawn Weber (11:55):
Correct. So then I'm always about Okay, so they
did that's just a proposal. Theperson made a proposal you don't
like we get it, you don't likeit? That's not a proposal you
like what would your proposalbe? and force them to make a
counter proposal? You know, ormaybe not force. We don't force
a by doing it, but make it astrongly worded opinion that
(12:16):
they should make it a proposal.
Mark Hill (12:18):
Sure. And I think that people need help with that.
Yep. Yeah. Is it something thatyou can't do on the fly very
easily when you're angry? Yes.
In other words, I've gotten thistotally unreasonable proposal
from my soon to be ex spouse.
And I doubt I'm supposed to makea proposal back. Well, you want
(12:42):
to know how
Shawn Weber (12:47):
to circle
Mark Hill (12:48):
Yeah, you want? You want 6 million? Oh, I think
you're worth about one and ahalf. Yeah. It's like, you got
to have exactly, you've got toavoid that. how
Shawn Weber (12:59):
that happened to me today. I met with this couple.
And he came in with a proposaland she was so incensed that
she's like, well, then I'm notgiving you anything. Which
wasn't helpful to her. And thenof course, he was ridiculous,
too. And it wasn't helpful tohim. Yeah. And so you know, in
(13:21):
that situation, I had to kind ofgo in separate rooms with this
particular couple and help themto think more clearly. You know,
just not and not that, Oh, I'mgoing to go in there and control
how you think but what it is Iwant to, I want to everybody
take a deep breath. And thinklogically instead of
emotionally.
Mark Hill (13:37):
Right? The strategic What is your what's your
outcome? What do you mean? Yeah,I want to have everything I want
her to have nothing. What do youthink that but I want that more?
Scott Weiner (13:48):
It's okay. No, no, he's Yeah, he's he's saying
essentially, where we startedhere, that notion of you want
What? Um, I gotta say that, youknow, that in a in a litigated
environment, people do tend tostart with the extreme on their
end, and, you know, patientlylike forced the other side to
(14:12):
pull them to the middle to theextent necessary. And that, um,
that in law school, I mean,that's sort of
Shawn Weber (14:21):
Oh, yeah, you do you tell your top level what you
think you're really going toget?
Scott Weiner (14:25):
Yes, vigorous representation,
Shawn Weber (14:28):
really terrible.
negotiation. My opinion. Well,yeah, you know, I think
Scott Weiner (14:36):
it wastes a lot of time.
Shawn Weber (14:38):
Yeah. Well, it's all that the marketplace that
he's talking about, you're justbouncing back and forth or used
car sale. Yeah, you know, butbut if you if you make it about
interest, needs and values, whatare my interests here, and then
you articulate that to the otherside, like Mark was suggesting,
and you think about what theirneeds are, you know, then you
can probably get somewhere. Imean, the whole premise of our
(14:59):
podcast, guys That you need theemotional, the legal and the
financial that kind of cometogether for there to be a
settlement. Right, right. Yeah.
And I think that's true andpeople are making you know, if
you get this proposal, it throwsyou off emotionally it's gonna
be hard for you to agree tosomething later.
Mark Hill (15:13):
And the other thing the one thing I've noticed is
that when couples do this, theyare focused on each other. In
other words, it's punishment orit's retribution in some form is
what the offer is a really badyou know, yeah. And so one thing
I done is and this may befrowned upon but I use the
(15:36):
children mercilessly on the showso I'm gonna live in the mansion
and you want him to live in atwo bedroom condo in somewhere
Okay, and you want your childrento go back and forth and see the
differences that how is thatgoing to work for your kids
(16:01):
bring the focus away from thecouple on to the children and
the impact this kind ofsuggestion might have that
there's no kids don't have thatopportunity. But that is
something that
Scott Weiner (16:13):
you can no no but where you went there what you
did by doing that was to almostmake it impossible for them to
ignore empathy in in the processthrough the through the kids
it's like the one where we'regoing to be meeting very soon it
(16:34):
doesn't have that element andthe irrational requirements
quote unquote, being posited. Idon't know that we have that
kind of a I mean, I think thatwe're going to have to indulge
the marketplace a bit
Mark Hill (16:54):
I mean, don't you say you sometimes have to do it to
get past it
Shawn Weber (17:00):
the other thing guys you just really important
there Scott and when those veryhighly emotional cases slowing
it down? Yeah, you know, andlet's indulge in this a little
bit. This back and forth I thinkcan be really helpful.
Mark Hill (17:15):
And taking away by addressing early the hot the
things that create a heightenedemotion, is it because they're
still under the same roof? Is itbecause one on rather than has a
bad living arrangement? Is theresomething related to one of the
kids going on that we can helpthem with? Yeah, there's often
just one thing that you get pastit and everyone takes a deep
(17:37):
breath think, okay, now Now wecan really work on this because
that thing that's driving mecrazy every day went away.
Scott Weiner (17:48):
I look forward to pre briefing this particular I
mean, I'm finding myself wantingto do it right now
Shawn Weber (17:58):
temptation to do it here on our podcast. No, don't
do that. You must not do that.
Scott Weiner (18:03):
But I know I know.
But I mean, this this thisparticular one Honest to God,
I've I've been a therapist for40 years. I feel like I have a
lot to learn about dealing withthe peculiarities of this one
Shawn Weber (18:21):
well we all the cases come up like that right?
Yeah, I think you're perfectlyright. Yeah, perfectly perfectly
rational people can lose theircrap to you know, especially in
this you know, we were talkingabout this before we started the
podcast, this this environmentthat we're in with, you know,
it's kind of joking about COVIDIt's like we're suffering from
(18:41):
PTSD and we have to go back andhang out with our abuser which
is the virus right we have to goback and put masks on again and
we thought we were free and nowwe're it's we're like the
Godfather they just pull us backin. Yeah. And that is upsetting
to people and perfectly rationalfolks are losing their crap. And
(19:05):
it's easy to do. You know, so wehave to be aware of that and I
think folks when they're goingthrough this need to be aware
that this this environment thatwe're in can can make them more
volatile than they wouldnormally be and make their
partner more volatile. Okay, soanother thing I was thinking
about is the complaint. Somebodycomes in she always does this
(19:30):
and I want this and it'sterrible that she's always late
for pickups of the kids. And Iusually go back to this okay, I
hear that complaint that thatsounds a lot like a proposal.
What do you want? Well, I wanther to show up on time. Can you
put that into a proposal?
Mark Hill (19:48):
And there's two words you should never use? Always and
never
Shawn Weber (19:53):
Yeah, that mean it's all or nothing thinking
that tells me exactly.
Mark Hill (19:56):
You know, she she's all Ramsay really So you've been
married for 38 years, and shenever showed up on time. Not
once, right? 38 years. Wow. Didyou survive so long?
Shawn Weber (20:10):
Yeah. No, but I mean that all or nothing but is
that
Mark Hill (20:14):
just thinking that that puts people on the defense?
I was late this morning. Iacknowledge that. I was Sorry,
I'm late. Yeah, I was late. Youknow what, I'm not always late.
Don't try. Don't take thatsituation where I showed up late
this morning, and suggest thatI'm a recalcitrant person who's
(20:35):
never showed up on time in mywhole life, because that's not
true. And that pisses me off.
Shawn Weber (20:40):
And anyway, you're divorcing me anyway. So what do
you care?
Mark Hill (20:43):
Yeah, really.
Shawn Weber (20:46):
You know, when when these complaints happen, though,
it's a it's a proposal indisguise. And so you can dive
under that complaint and findout well, what is it that you
want to change? Okay, so you'reconcerned about punctuality. So
let's build that into ouragreement that
Scott Weiner (21:03):
I'm sitting here listening to this, and I'm
laughing, I have a relative. Andnot only is he always late, he
is always phenomenallyirresponsible. This is this is a
(21:27):
guy who's who's this is adistant relative whose parents
what? His house into a trust.
And you know, because he wasmissing payments. He is a kind
of guy
Mark Hill (21:47):
who had Okay, this one guy in the war he had, he
had like that one, he justproved my warranty
Scott Weiner (21:54):
parking tickets in the glove compartment of his
car. All right. And here's ourthere are no better. So I guess,
Mark Hill (22:04):
with CD plates, you know, the plates.
Shawn Weber (22:08):
The other thing is, when we hear a complaint, it
could be that there's a reasonfor it.
Scott Weiner (22:12):
Yeah, and I guess I guess I'm, you know, I think
that part of our, our upcomingmeeting is going to involve some
of that, some of that there's,there's there's, you know,
Shawn Weber (22:28):
but again,
Scott Weiner (22:28):
I still think that the operational beauty of
getting people to generateproposals and getting people to
recognize the interests of theother party that still works,
even with even with unreasonablepeople.
Shawn Weber (22:51):
So again, like you don't like this behavior? What
do you want to change about thebehavior? Now make a proposal?
Yeah. It's more future oriented.
Right. So whereas a complaint,
Mark Hill (23:04):
exactly, it changes the focus, remember, we can't
talk about the past.
Shawn Weber (23:09):
I always tell them talk about the past. Yeah, yeah.
Well, we've talked about a lotof stuff. And I do think, you
know, making proposals is a isan important skill that you
know, we try to teach ourclients how to do it so that
when they're done with us, theycan continue to make proposals
(23:32):
with their with their partners,especially if they have children
that they got to continue to coparent and also they can have a
more productive relationshipeven if it's not a marriage it's
it's a relationship where youcan co parent together. Yeah, I
Mark Hill (23:49):
mean, that's the the ultimate goal of the work is to
give people tools that can makethem more effective in
communicating after the processis over than they were before
they started.
Shawn Weber (24:02):
So let's do our summary then. So you get a crazy
proposal that you think isabsurd, and it insults you. So
the first thing to do is not
Mark Hill (24:10):
overreact. And don't make a crazy proposal back
Shawn Weber (24:13):
and don't make a crazy proposal the back. And
then just think rationally, eventhough it's hard. And if you
can't think rationally, findsomeone who can help you think
rationally
Mark Hill (24:24):
or even ask for a time and ask if it's okay to say
I am five minutes to considerthis and go to bed.
Scott Weiner (24:32):
You can have a response. Again, the word media
comes in again mediate, but amediated response where, you
know, when you ask for that, I'mso upset. When you ask for that,
I find that so upsetting. Itseems so unfair and unreasonable
and I'd hoped that we could, youknow, that we could come
(24:56):
together and you know, reallymove towards The middle, right
from the beginning, instead oflike this and then have to force
our way back in. However, I'mgonna try to Yeah, it's, you
know, it's okay to say you'rereally upset. I mean,
Shawn Weber (25:15):
Oh, sure. I, I am not one of these mediators that
shutdown, emotional response, Ithink, yeah, sometimes people
need, you know, people arepeople and they're going to be
emotional. And if you're amediator and you can handle a
little bit of conflict, yeah,they do a good job you need,
you're in the wrong frame,you're in the wrong environment.
So I do think there's a placefor saying what you got to say.
(25:39):
I read a quote the other day, mywife put a sticky on my
computer. And it says, Can youyou can't see it. Conflict is
inevitable. contention is achoice. And I think, you know,
why
Scott Weiner (25:57):
would she Why was she angry with you?
Shawn Weber (26:03):
said that, but I like it. Yeah, it's probably
always
Scott Weiner (26:08):
what she's saying.
And now I'm going to get intosome real contention. That is my
choice that I choose
Shawn Weber (26:17):
to attend. Yes.
There are people that choose tocontent, thank you better run
rather be a big part of theproblem and a small part of the
solution. So yes, there
Mark Hill (26:27):
are some people who are most comfortable when
they're fighting and arguing.
Shawn Weber (26:31):
But people, most people find it very unpleasant
to fight. Yes, yes, yes. And ittakes years off your life makes
you feel gross. You think aboutit all the time. Oh, I should
have said this to him. Right?
Yeah, yeah. But really, when youwhen you're able to make a
proposal that's actually ameaningful proposal proposal
(26:52):
based on rational thought. It'sa very pleasant experience, to
actually see something cometogether.
Scott Weiner (27:03):
It's creative,
Shawn Weber (27:05):
creative, it's collaborative. It's all kinds of
good. And possible, even withthat crazy person that made that
nutty proposal.
Scott Weiner (27:14):
Sometimes it is.
Shawn Weber (27:16):
So Scott,
Unknown (27:17):
that desert, candidly,
Mark Hill (27:19):
your case will end
Scott Weiner (27:20):
it will add layer another.
Mark Hill (27:25):
You can choose not to divorce, you're in it. Yeah. You
can either on your on yourcurrent role, the process that
you're involved.
Shawn Weber (27:33):
Yeah, you can do it on your terms, or the terms of a
stranger in black robes. Yep. SoScott, if I need some help, just
dealing with my emotionalresponse to that crazy proposal?
What should I do?
Scott Weiner (27:48):
Well, if you happen to want to speak with a
therapist, or a coach, who worksin mediating these divorce
situations or other situations,you can call me My name is Scott
Weiner, w e i n er, and I have aphone and I answer my own phone.
(28:11):
619-417-5743 and Mark,
Shawn Weber (28:18):
oh, Mark, if you want to, if I need somebody to
help me with the math, becauseyou know the math, the numbers
don't lie. What should I do?
Mark Hill (28:29):
You would go to this wonderful 21st century
inventions for the website. Iknow it's got hasn't worked that
out yet. Anyway, I have thiswebsite, you go to pack
divorce.com Pac, di voc.com. Andeverything you need is there
including my phone number, and Ianswer my phone,
Shawn Weber (28:51):
too. You know, I think he's worked it out. He
just doesn't like it.
Scott Weiner (28:55):
Ah, I you know, it's kind of hard to figure out
whether to whether to work moreor retire. What do you think I
should do? You guys?
Shawn Weber (29:07):
Don't need the family life?
Mark Hill (29:09):
Yeah, really. You want to make sure you die at
your desk and your agents?
Shawn Weber (29:16):
Well, if you need me to resolve this dispute
between mark and Scott, go to mywebsite, Weber dispute
resolution calm, and we canmatch you with a mediator who
can help you resolve yourdispute. That's
Scott Weiner (29:31):
gonna help Mark and I solve this thing. Yeah.
Mark Hill (29:36):
We'll just find a teenager we both trust
Shawn Weber (29:38):
there you go.com you next time.
Scott Weiner (29:46):
Thanks, guys. Bye.
Good week to you guys.
Shawn Weber (29:51):
Thanks for listening to another episode of
the three Wiseman of divorce,money, psych and law. If you
liked what you heard, be sure tosubscribe. leave us a review and
share with others who may be ina similar place. Until next
time, stay safe, healthy andfocused on a positive, bright
future. This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
(30:15):
Every family law case is unique.
So no legal, financial or mentalhealth advice is intended during
this podcast. If you need helpwith your specific situation,
feel free to schedule a time tospeak with one of us for a
personal consultation.
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