October 5, 2022 • 29 mins
Sometimes a divorce case gets stuck because the professionals or the clients have not taken the time to prepare the case to be ready to settle. Impasse is sometimes nothing more than not having the facts or the emotions ready to find a solution. Learn what it takes to achieve "settlement readiness".
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
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Episode Transcript
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Shawn Weber (00:00):
And we haven't said anything irreverent yet. So if
you got anything and Reverend,let's make sure we get out of
the way. Let's make sure we sayit.
Mark Hill (00:07):
It'll come up whether we try it. It's just part of who
we are.
Shawn Weber (00:15):
Welcome to the three wise men of divorce,
money, Psych and law podcast.
Sit down with the Californiadivorce experts financial
divorce consultant Mark Hill,marriage and family therapist,
Pete Russo's and attorney ShawnWeber. For a frank and casual
conversation about divorce,separation, co parenting and the
difficult decisions, real peoplelike you face during these tough
(00:38):
times. We know that if you arelooking at divorce or
separation, it can be scary andoverwhelming. With combined
experience of over 60 years ofdivorce and conflict management,
we are here for you and lookforward to help by sharing our
unique ideas, thoughts andperspectives on divorce,
separation, and co parenting.
Mark Hill (01:01):
Welcome everyone to the wise men divorce Podcast.
I'm Mark Hill and together withmy co hosts, Peter Russo's MFT
and Sean Weber, illustriousfamily law attorney, we're going
to talk about the concept ofsettlement readiness, what does
it take to get a couple to thepoint where they are ready to
(01:26):
settle a case, we work inalternative dispute resolution.
So you can't get coerced intothis, you have to be ready. And
I've always argued you need tobe ready financially, other
words, understand the money andunderstand what your life is
going to look like post divorcefrom a financial standpoint,
(01:46):
understand your legal rights andobligations. And sometimes what
might happen if this case wereto go to court. And also from a
psychological standpoint, youneed to be ready to truly let
the relationship go in itscurrent form and perhaps created
in a reconstituted.
Shawn Weber (02:07):
Know, I appreciate that you said that we're an
alternative dispute resolution,because if you go to court,
nobody cares whether you'reready. Exactly. They just you go
to court, and a lot of timesyou're not ready, and then
you're not sure what reallyhappened at court until your
attorney explains it afterwards.
And I've heard you describe itas a violation.
Mark Hill (02:28):
That's how it felt one time to meet. Yes.
Peter Roussos (02:31):
You know, I think even in the context of
alternative dispute resolutionthat goes back to what we talked
about last time, the notion of amission statement, you know, do
people want to be ready for agrit your teeth settlement? Or
do they want to be ready forsomething that that feels
collaborative and sets the stagefor a future relationship, as CO
(02:53):
parents, for example, that theycan feel good about that's
healthy about. So it's even it'sit's it's settlement readiness
is nuanced, and still driven byI think the the goals and
objectives that people hopefullydefine for themselves at the
outset about where they want toarrive.
Mark Hill (03:14):
Yeah, and that doesn't happen in the court
process. No, I mean, your net,it's never thinking in terms of
outcome, but more in terms ofhow can I maximize my benefit
right now. And that's why itends up often being very poor in
the long term, because the focuscan be so short term, I need
(03:37):
support right now. As much as Ican get.
Shawn Weber (03:40):
Well, it becomes warfare in the relationship be
damned. Exactly. You know, I Alot of times, you know, I always
say this mark, I get it thatwhen people come into my office,
it's not because things arebutterflies and rainbows and
fairy dust. But they've not beengetting along, they've had
there's a reason why we're heregetting a divorce. But maybe we
can honor what was good aboutthe relationship. So you can
(04:03):
kind of have that, quote,unquote, good karma, that kind
of divorce where you you canleave with not as horrible of a
taste in your mouth. We also getthose cases where people are
absolutely they hate each other,and they still want to be able
to be ready to settle.
Mark Hill (04:21):
And sometimes it's based around the fact that there
are children and they feel aresponsibility to the child and
or perhaps that Toad towardsthis soon to be ex spouse,
Shawn Weber (04:31):
or they don't want to do any more damage to their
nest egg than they've alreadydone.
Mark Hill (04:35):
That's nice sometimes, too.
Shawn Weber (04:38):
Yeah. Yeah, I
Peter Roussos (04:40):
think you know, what we're talking about now is
maybe I think one of thechallenges that the
professionals in these casesface in terms of how we manage
our own expectations and what'swhat's the difference for us
between working with with thosecouples where both people are
really committed to to grit,your teeth kind of settlement,
(05:03):
and the emotionality that goeswith that, that we then have to
manage and try to shepherd themthrough, versus those other
cases where people really areinterested and committed and
invested in coming from what'sbest in them to arrive at
something that is going to bemore healthy and collaborative,
Mark Hill (05:22):
willing to take a journey themselves in this
process. I had a call today witha lady that I've been working on
her case for a little over ayear. And she was very much the
stay at home spouse didn'treally, you know, understand
what was going on with husbandsbusiness and the money focused
(05:42):
on raising three children. Andshe said to me today, she said,
you know, you said this to me ayear ago, that I would grow in
this and become more competent.
And I don't recall saying that,but I do set that and have been.
And she said, it's happened. I'mmanaging my own budget, I'm
competent. I know, I go into themeetings now ready to ask my
(06:05):
questions, as opposed to beingembarrassed that my question
might be stupid. And I thinkthat that's a journey from
somebody who's willing to lookat themselves and understand
their shortcomings and try towork on it throughout the
process. And that's, and that'sthe reward for me, frankly, when
that happens in the case, I It'slike, yes, sometimes it's just
(06:26):
getting the case done. And it'striage at the end, and we just
have to get the deal out. Andit's unsatisfactory, but the
work is completed. Right? Thisis work that will be completed
with the reward for theprofessional of actually seeing
somebody grow up.
Shawn Weber (06:46):
So maybe that's a part of Okay, so that's one of
the elements of settlementreadiness, I was going to ask
you, well, what does it mean tobe settlement ready, but one of
the elements is the ability tobe able to negotiate on your own
behalf, to be able to come intoa meeting with both of your feet
on the ground and your your headin the game and ready to start
(07:06):
talking about what thesettlement will be? Yes. And
Pete, we've seen that somepeople just aren't there yet.
They can't even they're sohorrified by the fact that
they're getting divorced, thatthey can't even think about what
makes sense.
Peter Roussos (07:21):
Well, and actually, as we're talking about
it, you guys tell me if this isgoing a bit far afield, but I
think what, what we asprofessionals, Lawson often has
to assess, is, you know, ifpeople are coming into mediation
or ADR, because they think itwill be less expensive, but
they're not prepared to becollaborative. Those are the
(07:44):
really challenging cases. Youknow, those are the ones that I
think often, we might limpthrough to a settlement. But
they can be brutal cases, brutalpeople and brutal for the
professionals.
Shawn Weber (07:58):
Well, and reaching the resolute or let me rephrase
that reaching the understandingthat the person you're divorcing
is still the person you'redivorcing. You know, they're not
going to suddenly change andhave a, you know, a brain
transplant a personalitytransplant, just because you
filed a petition.
Mark Hill (08:16):
And I've seen you say this, I've heard short silence
to people, when you hear the oneclient saying how awful their
spouses and so on, he will pauseand look at them and say, you
know, you might want to considera divorce. And it breaks it to
the point best. That's right.
That's why I am getting with afin slasher.
Shawn Weber (08:38):
Oh, yeah, that's right. The reason why I'm
divorcing this turkey, you know,but I mean, like I said, we get
it, there's a reason why you'rehere. But don't expect that all
of a sudden, this person isgoing to change and be a
wonderful kind, understandingnegotiator. They're going to be
who they are. And then you gotto make sure that you bring to
(09:00):
the table who you are, and havethe capability to be able to
advocate for yourself, even ifyou've hired attorneys, but to
be able to wrap your head aroundwhat is happening so that you
can make decisions in a rationalway. It takes some work for some
people to get to that point.
Because I've seen people youknow, they just go right into
(09:22):
that fight or flight mode. Thatyou know, that adrenaline thing
where they just kind of theirprefrontal cortex stop shuts
down and they're left with theirlizard brain. And they're just
thinking about survival. Youknow, am I going to kill this
person? Or am I going to run formy wife
Peter Roussos (09:40):
so that you're talking about a more reactive
dynamic and wondering in someways about the universe, those
couples who come in who havebeen so disengaged in, in part
because the conflict avoidant,you know, and how they each find
the courage to do what you'retalking about, Shawn, but which
is to engage in to define whatThey want
Shawn Weber (10:00):
to deploy. Yeah.
And isn't that the flight likewe have the flight. On the one
hand, we have the fight on theother hand. And there's some
people that I just want to avoidthis conflict. And in
Mark Hill (10:09):
those cases can be really challenging because the
real issues don't come out untilyou believe you may believe you
have a settlement in place, thensomebody will go, well, we never
talked about ABC and D, and yougot when you never raised ABC.
Yeah, I didn't want to upsether.
Shawn Weber (10:26):
Yeah, well, we better talk about it. Yeah, I
had a conversation with someonethat I was close to, where I
kind of told my truth, and setit in a very clear way. I wasn't
mean, but I just laid it outthere. This is what I think is
happening. And this is theboundary that I think you're
crossing, and I'm not okay withthis. And then this person said
(10:49):
to me, Well, I thought you werea conflict resolver, that was
really conflictual, and that wasvery strong. And, and I remember
saying, Well, you know,conflict, you know, peace is not
achieved by avoiding conflict.
Peace is achieved by managingconflict, and you can't manage
conflict unless you know whatthe conflict is. So sometimes
(11:10):
people have to have the courageto just lay it out on the table,
what is this that we arefighting about or upset about,
so that we can then resolve it.
Mark Hill (11:21):
And one thing I've seen someone like Pete do is
help people do that in a waythat doesn't rehash the fights
of the last 25 years in America.
I statements as most of youalways, I never forget the
chart, you will always, asopposed to my experience of what
happens when this occurs is asfollows. You can't argue with
(11:45):
that one. But if I say youalways do that, to me, what kind
of reaction and again again, soagain, helping with some
communication coaching forhopefully, in their new reformed
relationship if they havechildren, but just as as almost
like a device to help themthrough meetings, so they get to
(12:05):
say, at the same time, don'ttrigger a reaction that is so
powerful to have that resourceat the table for us.
Shawn Weber (12:15):
I really like that when statement comment or if
statement when you talk aboutyour 401k Like it's 100% yours,
and you're not going to share itwith me, it makes me frightened
for my future. You know, thatkind of statement is much more
effective. Have you alwaysthreatened me with your 401k?
Peter Roussos (12:34):
Well, it's it's the, you know, the difference
between being honest and anappropriate way, which is really
the most important, I think,intention that people can have
and being honest in aninappropriate way. The you know,
the and I think another aspectof this is how we teach people
that they really have aresponsibility to pick their
(12:56):
battles. What are the thingsthat they have to they have to
litigate as part of a healthysettlement process and a moving
forward? And and the longstanding battles that that serve
no purpose in terms ofperpetuating not only through a
settlement process, but to thepost divorce co parenting
relationship?
Mark Hill (13:19):
Go ahead. Well, so what you're saying is that
you're being honest by saying,yes, those jeans do make your
butt back, because perhapsdisplays that I'm just being
honest. Right? What do you do?
Jeez,
Peter Roussos (13:38):
how many times do we hear in cases? A person say
something inflammatory? And andthen defend it by saying, well,
that's just how I feel.
Mark Hill (13:50):
Right? Yeah,
Shawn Weber (13:51):
I can't help I had one lady. I can't help it. I'm
Portuguese. I have to say this,like, No, you don't you're not
your computer. Just because Ipush a button doesn't mean that
something has to happen. Yeah,well, how many times have you
heard this one, um, I, I thoughtI was married to someone else.
(14:13):
And then I found out he hadaffairs with women. And now I
don't know who I married, and Ican't trust him at all. And I
don't trust the word he saysnow. I mean, we hear that a lot.
And it's rational. I thought Icould trust him and the most
important promise he made to mein the world, which was our
marriage vows, and now, youknow, before God and the priest
and everybody, but now I hearthat turned out to be a lie.
(14:38):
That's how I'm perceiving it.
And now I think he's gonna lieto me about what's in his bank
accounts. I mean, what do you doabout that mark?
Mark Hill (14:49):
I step in and I go, You know what, it's very hard to
hide anything becauseeverything's tied to every
account is tied to socialsecurity number. I try and go
through how challenging it is.
To hide money. It really isthese days, I mean 20 or 30
years ago, all I had to see was,you know, Royal Bank of Canada
(15:09):
or something in the CaymanIslands, and I knew I was in
trouble. Now you can haveaccounts all over the world, but
they have to be disclosed. Andif someone's willing to lie on
their tax return and commit thefederal crime. Hopefully we
would identify that kind ofcharacter in the collaborative
or the mediating process. One ofthe things that scares the
(15:33):
moneyed spouse is the idea thattheir spouse is the smartest guy
in the room, so to speak, willcome in and charm everybody in
snow. Everybody under,
Shawn Weber (15:44):
you don't understand how slick he is
Mark Hill (15:48):
exactly. Yet. I've yet to find a client that knows
more than me. And that includessome lawyers. Always processing
money. That's why I've done thisfor so long, is to be able to
say that.
Shawn Weber (16:03):
Yeah, I mean, I had so many clients that think they
know how to hide money. And itnever goes, well. You know, it
always it always comes out,especially if you have
professionals helping you get tothe bottom of things. And, you
know, it's Trust, but verify.
Mark Hill (16:20):
Exactly. And also tell the story about the Los
Angeles lottery winner whoforgot to net is too soon to be
husband that, you know, she'dwon the lottery when he found
out the judge warded, 100% ofthe winnings to the husband. Not
yet. Yeah, exactly. So So again,you tell that story. And I will
(16:43):
often do it in front of bothclients on a joint for not that
you guys would ever do this. Butthis is how serious it is that
Shawn Weber (16:51):
the court can do really mean things to people
that don't disclose. Yeah. Andwe always find out, that's what
I always say, we always know.
Peter Roussos (17:00):
You know, I think that there's also the linkage
between somebody coming into aprocess with those kinds of
fears, questioning, does thisother person have their best
interests at heart. And what itis that they aspire to visa vie
a future relationship, because Ithink the reality is, if
somebody is hoping that they'regoing to be able to, to
(17:23):
collaborate, as CO parents withan ex partner, for example, the
bottom line is that people arewilling and able to define that
kind of future relationship. Thereality is, they've got to go
forward, being willing to riskfinding out that their worst
fears are true in order to findout that they're not true.
(17:44):
Alternative. Resolution is a, itis a leap of faith, ultimately,
it is a leap of faith, just likegoing forward and trying to
affect change in terms of a coparenting relationship. And so,
I mean, what do you do whensomebody says that they
absolutely positively 100%?
Don't trust the other person? Ifthat's where they're operating
(18:09):
from, then, you know, what is itthey expected the process, I
would be concerned about? Aclient who comes in with that
mindset, wanting to abdicate theresponsibility they have for
decision making
Mark Hill (18:24):
a call, let them do that. Yeah. But I mean, I've
said to clients who come in justoh, he's ski hide, since he's
got so many ads, you have noidea where what he's doing is,
you're never catching? Well,Guillo, I've said to a half a
dozen times to people. Well,it's perfectly appropriate to go
(18:44):
and hire a forensic accountantto do that work. That's not my
qualification. We can do prettygood tracing in the office, but
we're not forensic accountantsand don't pretend to be, but we
can hire someone like that. Ithink only on one occasion. Did
we do
Shawn Weber (18:58):
that? Did you actually hire the forensic?
Exactly, yeah.
Mark Hill (19:02):
And I'm, if I say half a dozen times, it's
probably two dozen times. But ittends to as you go through the
process, of what you're doingis, is building trust with both
sides so that you can get thedata and then disseminated in
understandable form to theunmanaged spam so that the
(19:23):
playing field becomes level. Andthat's the empowerment that the
unmanaged spouse hopefully getsto feel during the case, so that
they can go in with reasonablequestions. They're not going to
become the expert. They don'tneed to be they've got resources
at the table to help. So I thinkthat when we can, assuage these
(19:44):
fears, but give sort of the offramp to people if they need it,
yeah, you want a forensicaccounting, we'll get you don't
worry, you know, we can do that.
But let's try this first and seehow comfortable you are with it.
So that's how I approach that.
Shawn Weber (19:58):
And that really is the first pillar readiness,
isn't it? Do you have the data?
You need to be able to makedecisions? Yeah. So I mean that
I mean, when we spend that Ialways call that informational
stage at the beginning of thecase, what in litigation they
call the discovery process. Butthat is where we are gathering
the data about everything, aboutthe money about the kids about
(20:18):
everything. And do you have allof that information at your
fingertips so that you can makereasonable decisions? And then
the other piece of information Ithink that you mentioned before
we got on the call, or on thiszoom is is? Do you have the
legal information you need? Sothere's the financial
information, there's the legalinformation, you have the legal
(20:40):
information? Do you know whatyour rights are? Do you know
what the other party's rightsare? What are your
vulnerabilities in your case?
What are your strengths in yourcase? Are you aware of what your
best case scenario could be ifyou went to court or what your
worst case scenario could be? Ifyou went to court? Have you
thought about how much peace andjoy you will have just to have
(21:01):
this behind you right now, ifyou had an agreement today? You
know, that's really huge. Thatyou know, and then the third
pillar, I think, that wementioned, is, are you
emotionally ready to let go ofthis marriage? Sometimes that's
not always a straightforwardanswer. I had one client
Mark Hill (21:23):
who never did then is later she's still estranged from
her children, and still tryingto go after the guy every couple
of years, I get crazy email. Notcrazy. I got an email from this
lady who cannot let go ofsomething that was settled 10
years or more.
Shawn Weber (21:43):
Still struggling with the pain of the of the
relationship? And yes, yeah,yeah.
Mark Hill (21:49):
That's tragic. But we weren't able to help. And she
wasn't able to be helped
Peter Roussos (21:55):
is the way I you know, I think the the, in some
ways, the flip side of that, ifyou will, are those those cases
where we see the partners whoare willing to actually grieve
the loss of the marriagetogether? That's part of the
process. Yeah, actually grievingand acknowledging what was the
big picture of thatrelationship, that good, the
(22:18):
struggles, but that they do thatgrieving work as part of their
their dissolution process?
Shawn Weber (22:24):
Well, I that it really wouldn't be that, you
know, if we could see that morein cases, that would be really
mutual collaborative experiencewhere people can grieve
together. A lot of times, and wesee this a lot, and we talked
about this before is that, youknow, there's those Kubler Ross
stages of grief, where peoplestart with an initial denial,
and then there's bargaining andthen there's anger and
(22:46):
depression, and then theyfinally get to acceptance. And
what we find a lot of times isyou have this leave, or that's
already done all of thosestages, and is that acceptance?
And is that's why they're inyour office in the first place.
And then you have the personthat just found out about it
yesterday. And it's hard togrieve together when you've had
that kind of dynamic, but whatwhat suggestions would you make
for people that are kind of atdifferent stages in their grief
(23:08):
and can't synchronize that. ButI think for the person who's
Peter Roussos (23:11):
out in front, you know, to recognize that they
have had this chance thisprocessing that the other person
has not had the opportunity todo. And one of the things, I
think the thing that can be mostpainful for the person who is
the you know, the last to know,if you will, is that sense of oh
(23:32):
my god, how easy it seems to befor the leave or, and even the
conclusions that they draw aboutwhat the marriage must not have
meant to him or her if they'reso eager to leave? What did the
marriage me and for that for theperson who is out in front to
realize that if they want to notonly complete their own grieving
(23:54):
process, but to help the otherperson to grieve? It's important
to acknowledge what the marriagedid me, what were the strengths?
What were the challenges to bepatient, they willing to be
kinder, they're willing to becompassionate, are they willing
to process? And and it's, sadly,I think it's the relative it's
(24:15):
the relatively rare case wherethat happens. But I think it's
important that we establishedthe at least as an invitation,
the value and the importance ofpeople going there.
Shawn Weber (24:34):
Yeah, I have so many of my clients in mediations
that say, Oh, we don't want totalk about this. This is this is
not a therapy session.
Peter Roussos (24:42):
They don't want to do couples therapy anymore.
Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Right.
Shawn Weber (24:45):
And I'm like, but But you know, is I always say to
them, it's really going to helpyou to get to settlement
readiness. If we can have a lotof clarity, and sometimes
talking about these painfulthings, and being really open
and honest out our grief and ourhurt. Yeah, can help us get to
where we need to go.
Peter Roussos (25:06):
You know, and and potentially save you money?
Shawn Weber (25:10):
Yes. Well, they think they're wasting money by
talking about it was right.
Yeah. I'm like no, no when youtalk about it here that
lubricates the ball bearings sothat we can get to an agreement,
Mark Hill (25:21):
and also avoid you talking about it out there and
having a fight about it in thenext meeting when you come in.
Shawn Weber (25:29):
Right? Yeah. It's like when you put a if you have
a splinter in your finger, andyou don't do anything about it,
it's gonna fester and get pastit and kind of gross. But if you
get that splinter out, and dowhat you need to train it, treat
it when you pull it out. Yeah.
Does it hurt sometimes? Yeah. Itdoes. And that's how people are,
don't you agree? Yeah. Well,this is a good conversation. I
(25:54):
think I think it would be reallyhelpful for folks, when they're
thinking about going in theircase, just and knowing that it's
a process, it's not going to belike their to settlement
readiness immediately. It maytake them some time. But to
think about getting to thatlegal, that Eken, you know, that
financial and the emotionalgetting those three pillars
(26:14):
together, to make them ready tosettle.
Mark Hill (26:18):
And awareness of that spouse has to be there to sorry,
Peter Roussos (26:24):
no, no, I love the way that we're talking about
this. And the importance of thisinformation in terms of
orienting people at the very,very start of the process. This
is what it takes. This is what'sgoing to help you. I think that
one I think that that it's thiskind of information that helps
(26:49):
settle people down. Yeah. Butbut to I think there's there's a
crease in expectation aroundsomething that is maybe more
comprehensive than most peoplethink is going to be involved or
coming into it think they wantto be involved in. And so I
(27:10):
think by laying it out in thisway, we do set the stage or the
potential create more of apotential potential for those
kinds of I think what we allwould regard is the the ideal
kind of case, the healthy kindof process between people ending
a marriage
Mark Hill (27:28):
or listening to seek I had a case in the last week
where I had to do the financialreveal, that showed their
spending about four to $5,000 amonth more than they have income
and I've been doing for years.
And wife was absolutely in aposition where she was shocked,
but she dealt with it over twoor three days. Now she
(27:51):
understands a lot of stuffthat's going on in the marriage,
but it was a hard reveal. But weneed to wrap up here.
Definitely. So yeah,
Shawn Weber (28:01):
keep talking. But But yeah, well, go ahead. Go
ahead. Sorry. I'm talking to you
Mark Hill (28:08):
know, I have to say if they need dispute resolution,
from a legal standpoint, howwould they contact you sure,
Shawn Weber (28:15):
they would contact Weber dispute resolution.com
Just visit that website, Weberdispute resolution.com That's
Weber with one be like the grilland we will match you with a
dispute resolver that will helpyou settle your case.
Mark Hill (28:32):
And MFT extraordinaire Peter Russo's how
they contact you.
Peter Roussos (28:36):
You're cute to through my website, which is
Peter Russo's dot com P e t e rr o u s, s, o s.com. S as in
Sam.
Mark Hill (28:49):
And if you need help on the financial side,
understanding how this allworks, go to my website, Pax
divorce.com pacd IB o RCE.
Thanks, everybody. And we willbe back in a couple of weeks
with another of these.
Shawn Weber (29:07):
Thanks for listening to another episode of
the three Wiseman of divorce,money, Psych, and law. If you
liked what you heard, be sure tosubscribe. Leave us a review and
share with others who may be ina similar place. Until next
time, stay safe, healthy andfocused on a positive bright
future. This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
(29:32):
Every family law case is unique.
So no legal, financial or mentalhealth advice is intended during
this podcast. If you need helpwith your specific situation,
feel free to schedule a time tospeak with one of us for a
personal consultation.
And we haven't said anything irreverent yet. So if
you got anything and Reverend,let's make sure we get out of
the way. Let's make sure we sayit.
Mark Hill (00:07):
It'll come up whether we try it. It's just part of who
we are.
Shawn Weber (00:15):
Welcome to the three wise men of divorce,
money, Psych and law podcast.
Sit down with the Californiadivorce experts financial
divorce consultant Mark Hill,marriage and family therapist,
Pete Russo's and attorney ShawnWeber. For a frank and casual
conversation about divorce,separation, co parenting and the
difficult decisions, real peoplelike you face during these tough
(00:38):
times. We know that if you arelooking at divorce or
separation, it can be scary andoverwhelming. With combined
experience of over 60 years ofdivorce and conflict management,
we are here for you and lookforward to help by sharing our
unique ideas, thoughts andperspectives on divorce,
separation, and co parenting.
Mark Hill (01:01):
Welcome everyone to the wise men divorce Podcast.
I'm Mark Hill and together withmy co hosts, Peter Russo's MFT
and Sean Weber, illustriousfamily law attorney, we're going
to talk about the concept ofsettlement readiness, what does
it take to get a couple to thepoint where they are ready to
(01:26):
settle a case, we work inalternative dispute resolution.
So you can't get coerced intothis, you have to be ready. And
I've always argued you need tobe ready financially, other
words, understand the money andunderstand what your life is
going to look like post divorcefrom a financial standpoint,
(01:46):
understand your legal rights andobligations. And sometimes what
might happen if this case wereto go to court. And also from a
psychological standpoint, youneed to be ready to truly let
the relationship go in itscurrent form and perhaps created
in a reconstituted.
Shawn Weber (02:07):
Know, I appreciate that you said that we're an
alternative dispute resolution,because if you go to court,
nobody cares whether you'reready. Exactly. They just you go
to court, and a lot of timesyou're not ready, and then
you're not sure what reallyhappened at court until your
attorney explains it afterwards.
And I've heard you describe itas a violation.
Mark Hill (02:28):
That's how it felt one time to meet. Yes.
Peter Roussos (02:31):
You know, I think even in the context of
alternative dispute resolutionthat goes back to what we talked
about last time, the notion of amission statement, you know, do
people want to be ready for agrit your teeth settlement? Or
do they want to be ready forsomething that that feels
collaborative and sets the stagefor a future relationship, as CO
(02:53):
parents, for example, that theycan feel good about that's
healthy about. So it's even it'sit's it's settlement readiness
is nuanced, and still driven byI think the the goals and
objectives that people hopefullydefine for themselves at the
outset about where they want toarrive.
Mark Hill (03:14):
Yeah, and that doesn't happen in the court
process. No, I mean, your net,it's never thinking in terms of
outcome, but more in terms ofhow can I maximize my benefit
right now. And that's why itends up often being very poor in
the long term, because the focuscan be so short term, I need
(03:37):
support right now. As much as Ican get.
Shawn Weber (03:40):
Well, it becomes warfare in the relationship be
damned. Exactly. You know, I Alot of times, you know, I always
say this mark, I get it thatwhen people come into my office,
it's not because things arebutterflies and rainbows and
fairy dust. But they've not beengetting along, they've had
there's a reason why we're heregetting a divorce. But maybe we
can honor what was good aboutthe relationship. So you can
(04:03):
kind of have that, quote,unquote, good karma, that kind
of divorce where you you canleave with not as horrible of a
taste in your mouth. We also getthose cases where people are
absolutely they hate each other,and they still want to be able
to be ready to settle.
Mark Hill (04:21):
And sometimes it's based around the fact that there
are children and they feel aresponsibility to the child and
or perhaps that Toad towardsthis soon to be ex spouse,
Shawn Weber (04:31):
or they don't want to do any more damage to their
nest egg than they've alreadydone.
Mark Hill (04:35):
That's nice sometimes, too.
Shawn Weber (04:38):
Yeah. Yeah, I
Peter Roussos (04:40):
think you know, what we're talking about now is
maybe I think one of thechallenges that the
professionals in these casesface in terms of how we manage
our own expectations and what'swhat's the difference for us
between working with with thosecouples where both people are
really committed to to grit,your teeth kind of settlement,
(05:03):
and the emotionality that goeswith that, that we then have to
manage and try to shepherd themthrough, versus those other
cases where people really areinterested and committed and
invested in coming from what'sbest in them to arrive at
something that is going to bemore healthy and collaborative,
Mark Hill (05:22):
willing to take a journey themselves in this
process. I had a call today witha lady that I've been working on
her case for a little over ayear. And she was very much the
stay at home spouse didn'treally, you know, understand
what was going on with husbandsbusiness and the money focused
(05:42):
on raising three children. Andshe said to me today, she said,
you know, you said this to me ayear ago, that I would grow in
this and become more competent.
And I don't recall saying that,but I do set that and have been.
And she said, it's happened. I'mmanaging my own budget, I'm
competent. I know, I go into themeetings now ready to ask my
(06:05):
questions, as opposed to beingembarrassed that my question
might be stupid. And I thinkthat that's a journey from
somebody who's willing to lookat themselves and understand
their shortcomings and try towork on it throughout the
process. And that's, and that'sthe reward for me, frankly, when
that happens in the case, I It'slike, yes, sometimes it's just
(06:26):
getting the case done. And it'striage at the end, and we just
have to get the deal out. Andit's unsatisfactory, but the
work is completed. Right? Thisis work that will be completed
with the reward for theprofessional of actually seeing
somebody grow up.
Shawn Weber (06:46):
So maybe that's a part of Okay, so that's one of
the elements of settlementreadiness, I was going to ask
you, well, what does it mean tobe settlement ready, but one of
the elements is the ability tobe able to negotiate on your own
behalf, to be able to come intoa meeting with both of your feet
on the ground and your your headin the game and ready to start
(07:06):
talking about what thesettlement will be? Yes. And
Pete, we've seen that somepeople just aren't there yet.
They can't even they're sohorrified by the fact that
they're getting divorced, thatthey can't even think about what
makes sense.
Peter Roussos (07:21):
Well, and actually, as we're talking about
it, you guys tell me if this isgoing a bit far afield, but I
think what, what we asprofessionals, Lawson often has
to assess, is, you know, ifpeople are coming into mediation
or ADR, because they think itwill be less expensive, but
they're not prepared to becollaborative. Those are the
(07:44):
really challenging cases. Youknow, those are the ones that I
think often, we might limpthrough to a settlement. But
they can be brutal cases, brutalpeople and brutal for the
professionals.
Shawn Weber (07:58):
Well, and reaching the resolute or let me rephrase
that reaching the understandingthat the person you're divorcing
is still the person you'redivorcing. You know, they're not
going to suddenly change andhave a, you know, a brain
transplant a personalitytransplant, just because you
filed a petition.
Mark Hill (08:16):
And I've seen you say this, I've heard short silence
to people, when you hear the oneclient saying how awful their
spouses and so on, he will pauseand look at them and say, you
know, you might want to considera divorce. And it breaks it to
the point best. That's right.
That's why I am getting with afin slasher.
Shawn Weber (08:38):
Oh, yeah, that's right. The reason why I'm
divorcing this turkey, you know,but I mean, like I said, we get
it, there's a reason why you'rehere. But don't expect that all
of a sudden, this person isgoing to change and be a
wonderful kind, understandingnegotiator. They're going to be
who they are. And then you gotto make sure that you bring to
(09:00):
the table who you are, and havethe capability to be able to
advocate for yourself, even ifyou've hired attorneys, but to
be able to wrap your head aroundwhat is happening so that you
can make decisions in a rationalway. It takes some work for some
people to get to that point.
Because I've seen people youknow, they just go right into
(09:22):
that fight or flight mode. Thatyou know, that adrenaline thing
where they just kind of theirprefrontal cortex stop shuts
down and they're left with theirlizard brain. And they're just
thinking about survival. Youknow, am I going to kill this
person? Or am I going to run formy wife
Peter Roussos (09:40):
so that you're talking about a more reactive
dynamic and wondering in someways about the universe, those
couples who come in who havebeen so disengaged in, in part
because the conflict avoidant,you know, and how they each find
the courage to do what you'retalking about, Shawn, but which
is to engage in to define whatThey want
Shawn Weber (10:00):
to deploy. Yeah.
And isn't that the flight likewe have the flight. On the one
hand, we have the fight on theother hand. And there's some
people that I just want to avoidthis conflict. And in
Mark Hill (10:09):
those cases can be really challenging because the
real issues don't come out untilyou believe you may believe you
have a settlement in place, thensomebody will go, well, we never
talked about ABC and D, and yougot when you never raised ABC.
Yeah, I didn't want to upsether.
Shawn Weber (10:26):
Yeah, well, we better talk about it. Yeah, I
had a conversation with someonethat I was close to, where I
kind of told my truth, and setit in a very clear way. I wasn't
mean, but I just laid it outthere. This is what I think is
happening. And this is theboundary that I think you're
crossing, and I'm not okay withthis. And then this person said
(10:49):
to me, Well, I thought you werea conflict resolver, that was
really conflictual, and that wasvery strong. And, and I remember
saying, Well, you know,conflict, you know, peace is not
achieved by avoiding conflict.
Peace is achieved by managingconflict, and you can't manage
conflict unless you know whatthe conflict is. So sometimes
(11:10):
people have to have the courageto just lay it out on the table,
what is this that we arefighting about or upset about,
so that we can then resolve it.
Mark Hill (11:21):
And one thing I've seen someone like Pete do is
help people do that in a waythat doesn't rehash the fights
of the last 25 years in America.
I statements as most of youalways, I never forget the
chart, you will always, asopposed to my experience of what
happens when this occurs is asfollows. You can't argue with
(11:45):
that one. But if I say youalways do that, to me, what kind
of reaction and again again, soagain, helping with some
communication coaching forhopefully, in their new reformed
relationship if they havechildren, but just as as almost
like a device to help themthrough meetings, so they get to
(12:05):
say, at the same time, don'ttrigger a reaction that is so
powerful to have that resourceat the table for us.
Shawn Weber (12:15):
I really like that when statement comment or if
statement when you talk aboutyour 401k Like it's 100% yours,
and you're not going to share itwith me, it makes me frightened
for my future. You know, thatkind of statement is much more
effective. Have you alwaysthreatened me with your 401k?
Peter Roussos (12:34):
Well, it's it's the, you know, the difference
between being honest and anappropriate way, which is really
the most important, I think,intention that people can have
and being honest in aninappropriate way. The you know,
the and I think another aspectof this is how we teach people
that they really have aresponsibility to pick their
(12:56):
battles. What are the thingsthat they have to they have to
litigate as part of a healthysettlement process and a moving
forward? And and the longstanding battles that that serve
no purpose in terms ofperpetuating not only through a
settlement process, but to thepost divorce co parenting
relationship?
Mark Hill (13:19):
Go ahead. Well, so what you're saying is that
you're being honest by saying,yes, those jeans do make your
butt back, because perhapsdisplays that I'm just being
honest. Right? What do you do?
Jeez,
Peter Roussos (13:38):
how many times do we hear in cases? A person say
something inflammatory? And andthen defend it by saying, well,
that's just how I feel.
Mark Hill (13:50):
Right? Yeah,
Shawn Weber (13:51):
I can't help I had one lady. I can't help it. I'm
Portuguese. I have to say this,like, No, you don't you're not
your computer. Just because Ipush a button doesn't mean that
something has to happen. Yeah,well, how many times have you
heard this one, um, I, I thoughtI was married to someone else.
(14:13):
And then I found out he hadaffairs with women. And now I
don't know who I married, and Ican't trust him at all. And I
don't trust the word he saysnow. I mean, we hear that a lot.
And it's rational. I thought Icould trust him and the most
important promise he made to mein the world, which was our
marriage vows, and now, youknow, before God and the priest
and everybody, but now I hearthat turned out to be a lie.
(14:38):
That's how I'm perceiving it.
And now I think he's gonna lieto me about what's in his bank
accounts. I mean, what do you doabout that mark?
Mark Hill (14:49):
I step in and I go, You know what, it's very hard to
hide anything becauseeverything's tied to every
account is tied to socialsecurity number. I try and go
through how challenging it is.
To hide money. It really isthese days, I mean 20 or 30
years ago, all I had to see was,you know, Royal Bank of Canada
(15:09):
or something in the CaymanIslands, and I knew I was in
trouble. Now you can haveaccounts all over the world, but
they have to be disclosed. Andif someone's willing to lie on
their tax return and commit thefederal crime. Hopefully we
would identify that kind ofcharacter in the collaborative
or the mediating process. One ofthe things that scares the
(15:33):
moneyed spouse is the idea thattheir spouse is the smartest guy
in the room, so to speak, willcome in and charm everybody in
snow. Everybody under,
Shawn Weber (15:44):
you don't understand how slick he is
Mark Hill (15:48):
exactly. Yet. I've yet to find a client that knows
more than me. And that includessome lawyers. Always processing
money. That's why I've done thisfor so long, is to be able to
say that.
Shawn Weber (16:03):
Yeah, I mean, I had so many clients that think they
know how to hide money. And itnever goes, well. You know, it
always it always comes out,especially if you have
professionals helping you get tothe bottom of things. And, you
know, it's Trust, but verify.
Mark Hill (16:20):
Exactly. And also tell the story about the Los
Angeles lottery winner whoforgot to net is too soon to be
husband that, you know, she'dwon the lottery when he found
out the judge warded, 100% ofthe winnings to the husband. Not
yet. Yeah, exactly. So So again,you tell that story. And I will
(16:43):
often do it in front of bothclients on a joint for not that
you guys would ever do this. Butthis is how serious it is that
Shawn Weber (16:51):
the court can do really mean things to people
that don't disclose. Yeah. Andwe always find out, that's what
I always say, we always know.
Peter Roussos (17:00):
You know, I think that there's also the linkage
between somebody coming into aprocess with those kinds of
fears, questioning, does thisother person have their best
interests at heart. And what itis that they aspire to visa vie
a future relationship, because Ithink the reality is, if
somebody is hoping that they'regoing to be able to, to
(17:23):
collaborate, as CO parents withan ex partner, for example, the
bottom line is that people arewilling and able to define that
kind of future relationship. Thereality is, they've got to go
forward, being willing to riskfinding out that their worst
fears are true in order to findout that they're not true.
(17:44):
Alternative. Resolution is a, itis a leap of faith, ultimately,
it is a leap of faith, just likegoing forward and trying to
affect change in terms of a coparenting relationship. And so,
I mean, what do you do whensomebody says that they
absolutely positively 100%?
Don't trust the other person? Ifthat's where they're operating
(18:09):
from, then, you know, what is itthey expected the process, I
would be concerned about? Aclient who comes in with that
mindset, wanting to abdicate theresponsibility they have for
decision making
Mark Hill (18:24):
a call, let them do that. Yeah. But I mean, I've
said to clients who come in justoh, he's ski hide, since he's
got so many ads, you have noidea where what he's doing is,
you're never catching? Well,Guillo, I've said to a half a
dozen times to people. Well,it's perfectly appropriate to go
(18:44):
and hire a forensic accountantto do that work. That's not my
qualification. We can do prettygood tracing in the office, but
we're not forensic accountantsand don't pretend to be, but we
can hire someone like that. Ithink only on one occasion. Did
we do
Shawn Weber (18:58):
that? Did you actually hire the forensic?
Exactly, yeah.
Mark Hill (19:02):
And I'm, if I say half a dozen times, it's
probably two dozen times. But ittends to as you go through the
process, of what you're doingis, is building trust with both
sides so that you can get thedata and then disseminated in
understandable form to theunmanaged spam so that the
(19:23):
playing field becomes level. Andthat's the empowerment that the
unmanaged spouse hopefully getsto feel during the case, so that
they can go in with reasonablequestions. They're not going to
become the expert. They don'tneed to be they've got resources
at the table to help. So I thinkthat when we can, assuage these
(19:44):
fears, but give sort of the offramp to people if they need it,
yeah, you want a forensicaccounting, we'll get you don't
worry, you know, we can do that.
But let's try this first and seehow comfortable you are with it.
So that's how I approach that.
Shawn Weber (19:58):
And that really is the first pillar readiness,
isn't it? Do you have the data?
You need to be able to makedecisions? Yeah. So I mean that
I mean, when we spend that Ialways call that informational
stage at the beginning of thecase, what in litigation they
call the discovery process. Butthat is where we are gathering
the data about everything, aboutthe money about the kids about
(20:18):
everything. And do you have allof that information at your
fingertips so that you can makereasonable decisions? And then
the other piece of information Ithink that you mentioned before
we got on the call, or on thiszoom is is? Do you have the
legal information you need? Sothere's the financial
information, there's the legalinformation, you have the legal
(20:40):
information? Do you know whatyour rights are? Do you know
what the other party's rightsare? What are your
vulnerabilities in your case?
What are your strengths in yourcase? Are you aware of what your
best case scenario could be ifyou went to court or what your
worst case scenario could be? Ifyou went to court? Have you
thought about how much peace andjoy you will have just to have
(21:01):
this behind you right now, ifyou had an agreement today? You
know, that's really huge. Thatyou know, and then the third
pillar, I think, that wementioned, is, are you
emotionally ready to let go ofthis marriage? Sometimes that's
not always a straightforwardanswer. I had one client
Mark Hill (21:23):
who never did then is later she's still estranged from
her children, and still tryingto go after the guy every couple
of years, I get crazy email. Notcrazy. I got an email from this
lady who cannot let go ofsomething that was settled 10
years or more.
Shawn Weber (21:43):
Still struggling with the pain of the of the
relationship? And yes, yeah,yeah.
Mark Hill (21:49):
That's tragic. But we weren't able to help. And she
wasn't able to be helped
Peter Roussos (21:55):
is the way I you know, I think the the, in some
ways, the flip side of that, ifyou will, are those those cases
where we see the partners whoare willing to actually grieve
the loss of the marriagetogether? That's part of the
process. Yeah, actually grievingand acknowledging what was the
big picture of thatrelationship, that good, the
(22:18):
struggles, but that they do thatgrieving work as part of their
their dissolution process?
Shawn Weber (22:24):
Well, I that it really wouldn't be that, you
know, if we could see that morein cases, that would be really
mutual collaborative experiencewhere people can grieve
together. A lot of times, and wesee this a lot, and we talked
about this before is that, youknow, there's those Kubler Ross
stages of grief, where peoplestart with an initial denial,
and then there's bargaining andthen there's anger and
(22:46):
depression, and then theyfinally get to acceptance. And
what we find a lot of times isyou have this leave, or that's
already done all of thosestages, and is that acceptance?
And is that's why they're inyour office in the first place.
And then you have the personthat just found out about it
yesterday. And it's hard togrieve together when you've had
that kind of dynamic, but whatwhat suggestions would you make
for people that are kind of atdifferent stages in their grief
(23:08):
and can't synchronize that. ButI think for the person who's
Peter Roussos (23:11):
out in front, you know, to recognize that they
have had this chance thisprocessing that the other person
has not had the opportunity todo. And one of the things, I
think the thing that can be mostpainful for the person who is
the you know, the last to know,if you will, is that sense of oh
(23:32):
my god, how easy it seems to befor the leave or, and even the
conclusions that they draw aboutwhat the marriage must not have
meant to him or her if they'reso eager to leave? What did the
marriage me and for that for theperson who is out in front to
realize that if they want to notonly complete their own grieving
(23:54):
process, but to help the otherperson to grieve? It's important
to acknowledge what the marriagedid me, what were the strengths?
What were the challenges to bepatient, they willing to be
kinder, they're willing to becompassionate, are they willing
to process? And and it's, sadly,I think it's the relative it's
(24:15):
the relatively rare case wherethat happens. But I think it's
important that we establishedthe at least as an invitation,
the value and the importance ofpeople going there.
Shawn Weber (24:34):
Yeah, I have so many of my clients in mediations
that say, Oh, we don't want totalk about this. This is this is
not a therapy session.
Peter Roussos (24:42):
They don't want to do couples therapy anymore.
Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Right.
Shawn Weber (24:45):
And I'm like, but But you know, is I always say to
them, it's really going to helpyou to get to settlement
readiness. If we can have a lotof clarity, and sometimes
talking about these painfulthings, and being really open
and honest out our grief and ourhurt. Yeah, can help us get to
where we need to go.
Peter Roussos (25:06):
You know, and and potentially save you money?
Shawn Weber (25:10):
Yes. Well, they think they're wasting money by
talking about it was right.
Yeah. I'm like no, no when youtalk about it here that
lubricates the ball bearings sothat we can get to an agreement,
Mark Hill (25:21):
and also avoid you talking about it out there and
having a fight about it in thenext meeting when you come in.
Shawn Weber (25:29):
Right? Yeah. It's like when you put a if you have
a splinter in your finger, andyou don't do anything about it,
it's gonna fester and get pastit and kind of gross. But if you
get that splinter out, and dowhat you need to train it, treat
it when you pull it out. Yeah.
Does it hurt sometimes? Yeah. Itdoes. And that's how people are,
don't you agree? Yeah. Well,this is a good conversation. I
(25:54):
think I think it would be reallyhelpful for folks, when they're
thinking about going in theircase, just and knowing that it's
a process, it's not going to belike their to settlement
readiness immediately. It maytake them some time. But to
think about getting to thatlegal, that Eken, you know, that
financial and the emotionalgetting those three pillars
(26:14):
together, to make them ready tosettle.
Mark Hill (26:18):
And awareness of that spouse has to be there to sorry,
Peter Roussos (26:24):
no, no, I love the way that we're talking about
this. And the importance of thisinformation in terms of
orienting people at the very,very start of the process. This
is what it takes. This is what'sgoing to help you. I think that
one I think that that it's thiskind of information that helps
(26:49):
settle people down. Yeah. Butbut to I think there's there's a
crease in expectation aroundsomething that is maybe more
comprehensive than most peoplethink is going to be involved or
coming into it think they wantto be involved in. And so I
(27:10):
think by laying it out in thisway, we do set the stage or the
potential create more of apotential potential for those
kinds of I think what we allwould regard is the the ideal
kind of case, the healthy kindof process between people ending
a marriage
Mark Hill (27:28):
or listening to seek I had a case in the last week
where I had to do the financialreveal, that showed their
spending about four to $5,000 amonth more than they have income
and I've been doing for years.
And wife was absolutely in aposition where she was shocked,
but she dealt with it over twoor three days. Now she
(27:51):
understands a lot of stuffthat's going on in the marriage,
but it was a hard reveal. But weneed to wrap up here.
Definitely. So yeah,
Shawn Weber (28:01):
keep talking. But But yeah, well, go ahead. Go
ahead. Sorry. I'm talking to you
Mark Hill (28:08):
know, I have to say if they need dispute resolution,
from a legal standpoint, howwould they contact you sure,
Shawn Weber (28:15):
they would contact Weber dispute resolution.com
Just visit that website, Weberdispute resolution.com That's
Weber with one be like the grilland we will match you with a
dispute resolver that will helpyou settle your case.
Mark Hill (28:32):
And MFT extraordinaire Peter Russo's how
they contact you.
Peter Roussos (28:36):
You're cute to through my website, which is
Peter Russo's dot com P e t e rr o u s, s, o s.com. S as in
Sam.
Mark Hill (28:49):
And if you need help on the financial side,
understanding how this allworks, go to my website, Pax
divorce.com pacd IB o RCE.
Thanks, everybody. And we willbe back in a couple of weeks
with another of these.
Shawn Weber (29:07):
Thanks for listening to another episode of
the three Wiseman of divorce,money, Psych, and law. If you
liked what you heard, be sure tosubscribe. Leave us a review and
share with others who may be ina similar place. Until next
time, stay safe, healthy andfocused on a positive bright
future. This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
(29:32):
Every family law case is unique.
So no legal, financial or mentalhealth advice is intended during
this podcast. If you need helpwith your specific situation,
feel free to schedule a time tospeak with one of us for a
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