August 28, 2025 • 33 mins
Sexuality powerfully shapes our relationships, often revealing deeper issues when intimacy falters. The Three Wise Men delve into this complex territory lead by Pete Roussos, a licensed sex therapist, to exploring how sexual dysfunction typically signals problems elsewhere in a relationship.
The conversation uncovers how respect forms the foundation of healthy sexual connection. When partners feel disrespected or unacknowledged outside the bedroom, sexual dynamics inevitably suffer. This erosion creates vulnerability to outside validation, making affairs more likely. Perhaps most thought-provoking is the concept of "an affair with integrity" – challenging conventional thinking by suggesting true integrity would involve honest communication about changing boundaries before any lines are crossed.
The experts examine how affairs represent one partner unilaterally removing the other's choice, constituting the fundamental betrayal beyond the physical act itself. They explore gender differences in experiencing betrayal, the complexities of transitioning to open relationships, and how religious values shape sexual expectations. The discussion challenges the concept of "sexual addiction," suggesting it's a way to avoid accountability for choices.
For couples navigating divorce, understanding these dynamics offers valuable perspective. The healthiest separations happen when both parties recognize incompatibilities around sexuality reflect differences in authentic needs rather than personal rejection. Therapy during divorce isn't "failed" if the marriage ends – it succeeds when it helps individuals better understand themselves before entering new relationships.
Whether you're struggling in your current relationship or rebuilding after separation, this episode provides compassionate insight into how sexuality connects to our deepest needs for respect, authenticity, and meaningful connection. Subscribe for more wisdom from these experts in psychology, finance, and family law – each bringing decades of experience to help you navigate relationship challenges with greater clarity.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shawn Weber (00:00):
That really is good marketing, isn't it?
Pete Roussos (00:02):
Yes, yes.
,
Shawn Weber (00:04):
Genius, I might say .
Welcome to the Three Wise Men ofDivorce Money, psych and Law
podcast.
Sit down with the Californiadivorce experts financial
divorce consultant Mark Hill,psychologist Scott Weber and
attorney Sean Weber for a frankand casual conversation about
(00:26):
divorce, separation,co-parenting and the difficult
decisions real people like youface during these tough times.
We know that if you are lookingat divorce or separation, it
can be scary and overwhelming.
With combined experience ofover 70 years in divorce and
conflict management, we are herefor you and look forward to
helping by sharing our uniqueideas, thoughts and perspectives
(00:49):
on divorce, separation andco-parenting.
Pete,
Pete Roussos (01:03):
yeah,
Shawn Weber (01:04):
I think we should talk about sex today
Pete Roussos (01:07):
I thought you'd never ask!
What would you like to talkabout, Shawn?
Shawn Weber (01:13):
Well, I, I, I don't want to just randomly talk
about sex.
I mean, we are the three wisemen.
I don't think it would be goodfor our brand to just be three
old guys talking about sex.
That'd be a little creepy.
But what I do think is isimportant to talk about is just
I've seen this in cases and Iknow mark you've seen it and
pete you've seen it too sure howsex, different aspects of sex,
(01:37):
can play out in the work that wedo and I, sometimes I get more
information than I care to.
But, um, it's part of life,it's, it's an important part of
a relationship and I, I noticedthat you are a licensed and
trained sexual or sex therapistright.
Pete Roussos (01:55):
I'm a.
I'm a certified sex therapist.
Shawn Weber (01:58):
Yeah, okay, I want to get the words right A
certified sex therapist, and soyou have some knowledge in this.
You work with folks who arethere's a problem, I imagine,
with sex.
I mean, what gets somebody toneed to call you?
Pete Roussos (02:13):
Well, a whole host of things.
It could be people that aredealing with sexual dysfunctions
or sexual issues.
I do a lot of work with couplesthat are wanting to create a
greater sense of connection,emotional connection, through
sex, using sex as a way toconnect with each other at a
(02:35):
deeper level, but also as a wayof expressing themselves and
their sexuality, their eroticism, understanding themselves and
their sexuality and theireroticism more fully and owning
it.
And I think that sex is, youknow, it's a central part of the
human experience, and sex andself-esteem are so closely
(03:00):
connected that I think thatsexual issues and sexual
dynamics can create realcomplications in not just a
divorce process, but can be, youknow, a significant kind of
factor in the tensions thatpeople experience in committed
relationships.
And it ties to issues ofrespect, ties to issues of
(03:25):
acknowledgement andconsideration.
It goes to the core, I think,of what it means to be human.
Shawn Weber (03:33):
So I remember when I was a young man and my mom,
you know, was talking to meabout sex as moms do with their
children on occasion, as moms dowith their children on occasion
and she said you know itdoesn't?
It's not so many people makesuch a big deal out of sex, but
it's like 20 minutes on a goodday.
You know it's it, and so whatare you going to do with the
(03:54):
rest of your time?
That was her response to it,but I think there's something
deeper to that.
Yes, maybe that physical act isa short period of time, but but
it has such an impact on arelationship, doesn't it?
Pete Roussos (04:08):
Absolutely, absolutely, because I think that
it starts with how theindividuals define themselves as
sexual being, and then it's thevulnerability that they're
willing to bring into therelationship to really represent
and talk about who they are andhow they want.
And, ultimately, I think theimportant thing for couples I'm
(04:29):
talking about in the context ofa couple's relationship is how
the partners use sex as a way toconnect with each other, that
sex becomes a vehicle forconnection.
And so you know, that requiresquite a bit of vulnerability, it
requires quite a bit ofdiscipline and commitment,
(04:51):
mindfulness and deliberation.
And it deserves that because,again, I think it's one of the
most important aspects of theexperience of of relationships
that human beings can have.
Shawn Weber (05:08):
Yeah, I think it bears mentioning because you
never, you know it's it's notreally relevant to bring up sex
in court for the most part.
Um, you know, we're inCalifornia, for example, is a no
fault state, so if somebody hadan affair, nobody cares.
If the sex life was bad, nobodycares at court.
Or if sex stopped happening, Umand but, but.
(05:30):
Um, it's one of those.
You know, we had a podcastepisode that we've done before,
talking about relevant,irrelevant issues, and it's one
of those, those huge issues thatare just.
You know, you can't do divorcelaw, for the amount of time that
I've done it, without hearing alot of people telling me more
information about their sex lifethan I thought I needed to know
.
But I think that's an exampleof why it is really important to
(05:54):
people as a human.
Mark Hill (05:59):
I've seen it have Sorry, sean I've seen it have
financial impact too.
Have financial impact too.
In other words, if there's beenan affair and money has been
spent on the new paramour, thenthere's a reimbursement issue.
There are concerns around.
You know the children and Ihave.
(06:23):
You know introducing to newpartners can be a huge issue
that can blow up a divorce case,and I think that the most
difficult cases are ones wherethe jilted party or the person
(06:43):
that perceives them as beingwronged because there was an
affair on the other side, wantsor feels entitled to some kind
of financial remuneration.
They want to be paid for theirpain.
They think there's a value thatshould be attached to that and,
as you just pointed out, nobodycares in the courts.
(07:03):
But it can disrupt a case andprevent it from moving forward.
Shawn Weber (07:10):
And when we also talk about, you know, okay, so
somebody has sex outside of therelationship.
There's a betrayal there.
There's also the couples thatjust stop having sex with each
other.
I've also had the cases wherethey're getting divorced but
they continue to be, you know,for lack of a better term,
friends with benefits and theycontinue having sex, which
(07:33):
always struck me as amazing.
But you said something before,as we were preparing for this
Pete, that that you know thesexual dysfunction that you see,
or the, or maybe, or maybe, Idon't know sexual weirdness
that's my word that you mightsee it's usually symptomatic of
something else.
Pete Roussos (07:53):
Yeah, I think that the number one kind of factor
that can cause sexualdifficulties between partners is
an erosion of respect and thedevelopment of resentment for
issues outside of the bedroom.
You know, I think that,generally speaking, when people
(08:14):
get married, people want to bewanted, they want to be chosen,
they want to be desired, theywant to certainly think of
themselves and experiencethemselves as being desirable,
certainly think of themselvesand experience themselves as
being desirable.
And so if you're in arelationship and that sense of
connection or being cherished asthat begins to diminish, or if
(08:34):
you think your partner isn'ttreating you appropriately or
treating you respectfully, thatis going to impact the extent to
which, for most people, I thinkit has an impact on the the,
the extent to which they want tobe sexual with the other person
.
Sex often gets weaponized.
It's often used as a way ofpunishing people.
(08:55):
But I think and this is ageneralization and I'm talking
about an emotional terms, I'mnot talking about in terms of
people that might be interestedin kink behaviors and things
like that but I think, ingenerally speaking, people are
not interested in having sexwith people whom they don't
think respect them or considerthem or who don't have their
(09:17):
best interests at heart.
And so if the collaborativealliance between partners is
broken down outside of thebedroom, if I can frame it that
way, in these other areas of themarriage whether it be, you
know, roles and responsibilitiesto keep the house up, in
co-parenting, in financialcontributions, in relationships
with extended family, whateverit is if the collaborative
(09:41):
alliance is breaking down inthose parts of the relationship,
it's likely to have a negativeimpact on the sexual dynamics
between the partners as well,and so, in that way, I think the
sexual dysfunction is oftensymptomatic of these other
dynamics.
Shawn Weber (10:01):
Yeah, which I mean you're describing things that
can be very toxic to arelationship.
Absolutely, the lack of respectpiece, I think, is really big,
isn't it, you know?
Pete Roussos (10:13):
I think it's the most per pernicious factor in in
relationship breakdown.
Shawn Weber (10:23):
Really yeah, and in what way?
What are you?
Pete Roussos (10:28):
seeing that leads you to that conclusion.
Well, again, I think that it'shard to be generous and I think
an erosion of respect is morelikely to create a quid pro quo
kind of economy between partners.
You know, it's hard to begenerous with somebody that you
don't think reciprocates withgenerosity, and it's hard to be
generous with somebody that youdon't think respects you or
(10:50):
considers you.
So when people begin to thinkthat they're being maltreated,
that is going to fuel the ideathat they deserve more, that
they deserve better.
Now, I think that sense that Ideserve more and I deserve
better.
I think that that makes peoplemore susceptible, if you will,
(11:10):
or vulnerable, to the validationthat they could receive from an
affair partner, for example.
Shawn Weber (11:18):
I was going to say.
I've had so many cases wherethe person that stepped out of
the relationship said that theystepped out of the relationship
because the person that theywere in the relationship with
was cold or didn't respect them.
When they were with this newperson, they felt loved, they
felt validated, as you weresaying yeah, and that there was
(11:43):
a reason why they left therelationship.
You know, and I've been toldthat I should not excuse bad
behavior by saying, well, theyleft the relationship because
somebody was, you know, cold athome.
But it's not a vacuum, right,there's all these things that
are happening as a result of therelationship dynamic I would
(12:04):
imagine.
Pete Roussos (12:05):
Well, you know, when I talk with, and I do a lot
of work with couples that arecoming to me because there's
been an affair and they'rereally trying to heal and
recover from it, and I thinkit's really important that I say
to those couples, those clients, at the start of the work and
this is always something when Isay this, people look at me like
I'm crazy.
(12:25):
But I say to them you know, itis possible for a person to have
an affair with integrity, andthey look at me like I'm nuts,
but then I go to explain what itis.
Yeah, and this is what it is.
So you know, most certainly.
You know, I think it's quitecommon for couples, when they
get married, they pledgefidelity to each other.
(12:47):
Right, they're making amonogamous commitment.
That's usually where mostcouples start.
Mark Hill (12:52):
Yep.
Pete Roussos (12:53):
And so an affair with integrity is when partner A
goes to partner B and says hey,look, I know, when we got
married, we promised to befaithful to each other, but I
decided that I'm no longerwilling to uphold that promise.
I haven't acted on it yet, Ihaven't done that yet, I haven't
(13:14):
violated it yet, but I'vedecided that I'm going to, and
I'm telling you about it first,because I recognize that you
have a choice in this as well.
That is what an affair withintegrity looks like, because I
think the evaluation of anaffair, what it's really about,
is one partner unilaterallytaking the other person's choice
(13:35):
away.
And so, in the example that yougave, if partner A goes to
partner B and says, hey, myexperience of you is that you're
treating me coldly, that you'retreating me disrespectfully,
and I've decided that I'm nolonger willing to tolerate that.
So we either need to work onthis together or I'm going to
(13:59):
have to maybe make some toughdecisions about our relationship
.
Mark Hill (14:03):
And how often do you see somebo dy actually doing
that, Peter, without yourcoaching ahead of time?
Pete Roussos (14:14):
It's never happened.
But I'll tell you why.
The intervention, why myframing it that way, I think is
really important Because it saysto the partner who had the
affair what you did was youunilaterally took the other
person's choice away and youhave to own that.
There was nothing in themarriage that justifies you
(14:35):
doing that.
Shawn Weber (14:37):
I think that's huge .
Mark Hill (14:38):
Most people would recognize that they themselves
don't want their choicesunilaterally taken away from
them.
Shawn Weber (14:45):
The sin.
Here I mean, I'm using the wordsin loosely-
Pete Roussos (14:49):
yeah, yeah
Shawn Weber (14:50):
But the sin here is not so much the affair although
I'm not going to, you know,debate people about that but
it's more about you took mychoice away to decide whether I
wanted to be in a relationshipwith a person that did not honor
the vows that we took in frontof our priest and God and
everybody.
Pete Roussos (15:08):
Or even for you.
You took my choice away from meas to whether or not I was
willing to work on the fact thatyou're sexually dissatisfied
with me or that you're just.
You know, you're frustrated theway we define roles and
responsibilities, whatever theissue was.
Whatever the issue was.
Shawn Weber (15:27):
I had a guy the other day that I was talking to
and he had an affair, beenhaving an affair for two years,
yeah, and then he finally, youknow, told his wife.
Pete Roussos (15:39):
Mm-hmm.
Shawn Weber (15:42):
And he acknowledged .
He said I did this the wrongway.
I didn't.
He used your word, word.
He said I did not haveintegrity.
I should have said somethingtwo years ago and that was my
mistake.
I was wrong, but what he haddone had caused so much damage
in the relationship and so nowshe's like well, I don't, I
(16:04):
thought I could trust you, butnow I don't know if I can trust
you about our money.
Pete Roussos (16:10):
Here's the other side of it, though, Shawn, and I
think that and again, this isthe conversation that I have
with couples that are trying toaddress the aftermath of an
affair the really importantpiece of work or a really
(16:30):
important piece of their work iscoming to understand and take
responsibility for the fact thatthey made this unilateral
decision.
It was a usurpation of theother person's autonomy.
For a grieved spouse, thechallenge of the work is being
able to see the affair as asmall piece of a much bigger
marital picture.
It's an important piece, butthere's a bigger picture, and
(16:51):
the bigger picture is thisco-created dynamic that all
couples co-create theirrelationship, and so what was
happening between the partners?
What was that person notspeaking up about that was
leading to the erosion ofrespect or the furthering of
resentment?
You know what was going onbetween the part.
(17:12):
I mean, it's always interestingto me when couples come in and
they've had an affair, and oneof the things that they'll point
to is the fact that theyhaven't been having sex.
I always want to know well,what did you think would happen
when you guys stopped having sex?
Mark Hill (17:27):
Yeah,
Shawn Weber (17:30):
that pressure would go somewhere.
Is that what you're saying?
Pete Roussos (17:32):
Yeah, what did you think For these two people as
sexual beings?
What did you think would happen?
Well, I never thought that shewould have an affair or he would
have an affair.
Okay, you didn't think that,but what did you think would
happen?
And often I've got to verypainstakingly stick with that
(17:55):
question because people want toavoid owning the fact that often
they just choose to ignore it.
Which means they let down theirpart, their end of the
(18:18):
stewardship responsibility thatboth partners have for all
facets of the relationship,including the sexual part of the
relationship.
I'm wondering, peter, do yousee gender differences?
And the reason I ask that isbecause I recall a case I had
where the husband had beenseeing prostitutes.
They'd stopped having sex andhe'd been seeing prostitutes and
he'd foolishly put it on acredit card and his wife found
it and she ended up then havingan affair with somebody they
both knew and he was incensedMine didn't mean anything, you
(18:43):
wouldn't have sex with me, itwas just an act.
But now you have this emotionalrelationship with Bill, who we
both know, and every time I seehim in church or whatever it is
you know.
And so is that a genderdifference?
Well, I think there are, and Idon't think this is born out of
(19:05):
research.
But the anecdotal sense thatI've heard, you know, within the
field, is that for women, anemotional'm talking really more
(19:26):
about heterosexual relationships.
For women, if their husband hasan emotional connection with
somebody else, that's a greaterbetrayal, and for men, if a
female partner has a sexualconnection with another man,
that's a greater betrayal.
I don't know if that holds upin terms of the research, but to
(19:49):
me, mark, what's so interestingabout that scenario that you're
describing and I've heardstories like that.
What I'm always curious aboutis what does, in that example,
the guy think it communicates tohis wife that he's willing to
have sex.
That doesn't mean anything.
And how in the world is thatsupposed to make her feel good
(20:11):
about having sex with him?
And then, all of a sudden, youknow when that is on the table.
That opens up this much broaderdiscussion about dynamics in
the relationship, what sex meansto them both, and you know what
people can communicate to eachother, or what they really are
communicating to each other bythe way they view sex and by the
(20:34):
way they engage with sex.
The other thing we've seen a couple of times,
sean and it's not that prevalent, but we have seen it of couples
deciding to go into openrelationships and then one
deciding it's not working forthem and the other one goes,
it's working just fine.
And those cases are verycomplicated, very complicated
(21:01):
and and and uh, it can be verydifficult to at least from my
layman's standpoint, tounderstand what that dynamic
does in the divorce and how dowe approach that in?
Shawn Weber (21:15):
well, I would differentiate these cases.
We've had the cases where theyhave they identify as
polyamorous right and from theoutset they've had multiple
partners.
That's not what I'm talking,we're talking about here.
What we're talking about isthey were, they were married as
monogamous couple and then oneof them brought up, hey, could
we try having multiple partnersand there would be various.
(21:39):
I mean, they would both try itor maybe one would try it.
And I mean, when I'm I get itthat I'm seeing a skewed
population, probably becausethey're all coming to for a
divorce.
But what?
What usually happens whenthey're looking for a divorce is
one of them didn't feelcomfortable with it, maybe
actually participated in it,felt gross about it, and then it
(22:00):
just kind of poisonedeverything after that.
I've seen that.
I mean, what are your thoughtson that?
Mark Hill (22:05):
Pete represents is a situation where one of the
partners is initiating a reallysignificant renegotiation or
redefining of the maritalcontract and so where I think
healthy divorces if you will Ican't think of a better way to
(22:27):
frame it that happen under thosecircumstances are when people
really decide and own what'swhat's solid in them about their
sexuality.
And if a person decides that itwould be a violation of their
integrity to engage in certainsexual practices, you know some
(22:49):
people have decided they justcan't cross that line because it
violates their integrity.
For other people it may be thatthey're not willing to
sacrifice certain aspects oftheir sexuality because it would
be such a gross violation oftheir integrity.
You know people that are endinga marriage for those reasons.
Those can be really sad anddifficult processes, but it can
(23:12):
actually bring people togetherin a divorce process working in
a more collaborative way becausethey both recognize that this
really is about authenticity,rather than it being that one
person is feeling spurned or theother person is feeling like
it's just not enough, wheretheir self-esteem is taking a
(23:32):
really more personal injury orgetting diminished in that way.
So I think they're reallycomplicated cases and for
couples that are trying tonavigate the opening of a
relationship, often the processfor them, and really trying to
(23:54):
explore and figure out is therea meeting in the middle that can
work for them both, if onepartner wants not monogamy and
the other person wants monogamy?
Those can be tough distances totry to bridge, tough
differences to try to bridge,and so it's.
I mean I've had a number ofcases where couples have just
(24:16):
decided, for the right reasons,that they can't stay married
because doing so would be toomuch of a sacrifice for either
one or both of the clients.
Shawn Weber (24:27):
I've got another question.
Go ahead, Mark.
Pete Roussos (24:29):
If I may.
I know we're running out oftime here.
I had a guy once who had hadmultiple affairs, admitted it,
and then he turned to me onetime and he said but I'm just a
sex addict.
I've been diagnosed as a sexaddict by my therapist and it
was almost like, well, I can'tdo anything about it, it's not
my fault, I'm an addict.
(24:50):
What do you think about that?
Mark Hill (24:52):
do anything about it, it's not my fault, I'm an
addict.
What do you think about that?
Well, there is nothing in thescience that establishes that
there is such a thing as sexualaddiction.
One of the things that Ispecialize in is the treatment
of out-of-control sexualbehaviors, and that is a very
real thing, and part of thetreatment for that is helping
the individual, and this workalso happens in the context of
(25:14):
couples work, but reallyfiguring out and defining their
view of what healthy sexualexpression is.
So the concern that I have withsomebody who continues to
engage in what they regard asaddictive behavior is what's the
understanding behind that?
And to me it can be in.
(25:36):
The concern that I have is itis a way of abdicating
responsibility that allows aperson to continue engaging in
behaviors that is eitherunhealthy to them or destructive
to people that they purportedlycare.
Shawn Weber (25:50):
You can't use the excuse of an addiction, you're
saying, to justify your poorchoices.
Mark Hill (25:55):
Right, and also one of the reasons why the notion of
sexual addiction, I think, isdangerous is you can abstain
from smoking, you can abstainfrom drinking, you can abstain
from gambling, you can abstainfrom overeating, but for human
beings, abstaining from sex isreally contrary to who we are as
(26:18):
biological creatures, and so Ithink it's all about coming to
terms with and defining what area person's healthy sexual
practices.
Shawn Weber (26:30):
Where does religion play into that?
I've had cases where a veryreligious couple and then it
came out, you know, the wifefound that the husband had been
engaging in a lot of pornographyviewing and masturbation and
things like that and it reallyupset her because she viewed it
(26:51):
as the same as an affair andtheir religious teachings were
that it was wrong and it wasvery difficult for them to
reconcile that.
I mean, what have you seen asfar as people's values around
sex and how that impacts?
Mark Hill (27:08):
I think religion and faith has a very, very
significant impact on how peopledefine what's appropriate,
what's normal, what's okay.
(27:29):
There, I think, is a processthat can be really difficult and
terrifying for people when theyrealize that there's something
that is just dissonant for themvis-a-vis their religious
community or faith community andwhat it is that they feel
inside in terms of their ownsexuality.
In terms of their own sexualityand that process of exploring
(27:53):
that can be incredibly painfuland incredibly frightening, but
be really what's required for aperson to be able to move
towards a greater authenticsense of who they are as a
sexual being and how they definetheir eroticism.
Shawn Weber (28:07):
Sexuality with integrity.
Again it comes back to theintegrity piece and authenticity
.
Mark Hill (28:10):
And authenticity and ownership, yeah, sexuality with
integrity.
Shawn Weber (28:12):
Again it comes back , integrity piece and
authenticity and ownership, yeahbut what's upsetting was
upsetting to this woman was thathe was sneaking around the big
part of it right now I don'tknow like do you normally go up
to people and say you know,honey, I really have to look at
pornography every day and wellhow does that go?
Mark Hill (28:30):
But there certainly have been.
You know, I've seen couplesthat they agree on a don't ask,
don't tell kind of approach.
There are couples that there isa level of transparency where,
you know, partner A might go topartner B and say, hey, I'm
feeling like I'd like to besexual tonight.
Would you be interested?
(28:51):
I'd like to be sexual with you.
And partner B might say, well,you know, I'm feeling like I'd
like to be sexual tonight.
Would you be interested?
I'd like to be sexual with you.
And partner B might say, well,I'm just not into it tonight.
And partner A might say, okay,well then, I'm going to use
sexual media and pleasure myself.
There's no one right way ofdoing it, but this is something
for, I think, when somebodypresents the situation that
you're presenting with, I thinkit's really important for the
(29:13):
partner who is upset by thebehavior to really understand
and unpack why, what is it aboutthe behavior that is
threatening or concerning tothem?
And certainly if somebodythinks you do that and you go to
hell, it's understanding right.
But for the other person toalso be able to define and
understand what it is about thatactivity that they enjoy, why
(29:37):
is it meaningful to them and isit providing something that,
upon inspection, they themselvesbelieve is healthy and
appropriate.
Shawn Weber (29:47):
So again, it comes back to choice.
Are you allowing people to makechoices?
And it comes back to choice Areyou allowing people to make
choices?
Mark Hill (29:52):
Yeah, it's a very interesting discussion and I
think we could go for anotherhour and a half talking about it
and maybe we should schedule inmore discussions about this
kind of thing, because I dothink it touches on so much of
(30:13):
what we do in divorce work and Ithink it's also the thing that
ties back to healthy maritalfunctioning as well.
Shawn Weber (30:23):
That's the thread that runs through healthy
marriages as well asdysfunctional marriages.
I think it's an excellent pointbecause I meet with people when
they're divorcing, but I'm alsothinking about and I'm not a
therapist but what's their nextrelationship going to be like
about and you know I'm not atherapist but what's their next
relationship going to be like?
Right, is there somethingthey're going to learn from the
relationship they're in now,that so that maybe the next time
they get into a newrelationship maybe they don't
carry a dysfunction over?
Or?
I wish people would not stopwith their therapy after the
(30:44):
marriage family therapy stops.
I wish they would continue tokind of understand themselves
and what led them to where theyare.
Mark Hill (30:52):
Yeah.
Pete Roussos (30:54):
Yeah, and that's one of the things we do see,
because people go.
I've had clients say this moreoften, men than women, but still
both sexes say this oh, wetried therapy, it didn't work.
Shawn Weber (31:05):
Did n't work.
Pete Roussos (31:15):
It didn't work because we got divorced.
Well, I think sometimes therapyworks because the people get
divorced.
Shawn Weber (31:18):
Yeah, I usually ask well, what is your next partner
going to think about?
Yeah, maybe, maybe you need towork on some things so that your
next partner gets a better, abetter partner.
Yeah, but that takes someintrospection, doesn't it?
Absolutely.
Well, guys, we've done it again.
I think it was.
We spent some time talkingabout some important issues and
(31:40):
so, pete, if someone needed totalk to you about relationships
or sex or divorce work, whatshould they do?
Pete Roussos (31:46):
B east way to get in touch with me is through my
website, which is PeterRoussoscom P-E-T-E-R-R-O-U-S-S-O-S dot
com, and you can email me fromthe contact me page.
Shawn Weber (32:01):
And, mark, if somebody wants to talk to you
about financial infidelity andother financial issues that
impact divorce, what should theydo?
Mark Hill (32:14):
Websi te ame thing.
It's Pacific Divorce Managementis the company pacdivorce.
com P-A-C-D-I-V-O-R-C-E dot comContact form on there and we're
very prompt in getting back toyou if you come through that
door.
Shawn Weber (32:26):
And for a legal perspective on divorce or
needing somebody to help youwork things out in a mediation,
contact me at Again, that'sWeber dispute resolution dot com
.
All right, guys, we'll till nexttime-
Shawn I miss it when you sayWeber like the grill,
Mark Hill (32:46):
like the grill
Well you know, thanks forreminding me that, because
people-
Dispute like we had a disagreement-
Pete Roussos (32:52):
-Ye eah-
Mark Hill (32:53):
and Resolution, like we solved it.
Shawn Weber (32:55):
That really is good marketing, isn't it?
Pete Roussos (32:58):
Yes, yes.
Shawn Weber (32:59):
Genius, I might say , and I'm humbly at your service
.
Mark Hill (33:07):
All right guys.
Pete Roussos (33:08):
Till the next time , take care.
Mark Hill (33:11):
Thanks guys, Bye-bye.
Shawn Weber (33:20):
Thanks for listening to another episode of
the Three Wise men of DivorceMoney, psych and Law.
If you like what you heard, besure to subscribe, leave us a
review and share with others whomay be in a similar place.
Until next time, stay safe,healthy and focused on a
positive, bright future.
This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
(33:43):
Every family law case is unique, so no legal, financial or
mental health advice is intendedduring this podcast.
If you need help with yourspecific situation, feel free to
schedule a time to speak withone of us for a personal
consultation.
That really is good marketing, isn't it?
Pete Roussos (00:02):
Yes, yes.
,
Shawn Weber (00:04):
Genius, I might say .
Welcome to the Three Wise Men ofDivorce Money, psych and Law
podcast.
Sit down with the Californiadivorce experts financial
divorce consultant Mark Hill,psychologist Scott Weber and
attorney Sean Weber for a frankand casual conversation about
(00:26):
divorce, separation,co-parenting and the difficult
decisions real people like youface during these tough times.
We know that if you are lookingat divorce or separation, it
can be scary and overwhelming.
With combined experience ofover 70 years in divorce and
conflict management, we are herefor you and look forward to
helping by sharing our uniqueideas, thoughts and perspectives
(00:49):
on divorce, separation andco-parenting.
Pete,
Pete Roussos (01:03):
yeah,
Shawn Weber (01:04):
I think we should talk about sex today
Pete Roussos (01:07):
I thought you'd never ask!
What would you like to talkabout, Shawn?
Shawn Weber (01:13):
Well, I, I, I don't want to just randomly talk
about sex.
I mean, we are the three wisemen.
I don't think it would be goodfor our brand to just be three
old guys talking about sex.
That'd be a little creepy.
But what I do think is isimportant to talk about is just
I've seen this in cases and Iknow mark you've seen it and
pete you've seen it too sure howsex, different aspects of sex,
(01:37):
can play out in the work that wedo and I, sometimes I get more
information than I care to.
But, um, it's part of life,it's, it's an important part of
a relationship and I, I noticedthat you are a licensed and
trained sexual or sex therapistright.
Pete Roussos (01:55):
I'm a.
I'm a certified sex therapist.
Shawn Weber (01:58):
Yeah, okay, I want to get the words right A
certified sex therapist, and soyou have some knowledge in this.
You work with folks who arethere's a problem, I imagine,
with sex.
I mean, what gets somebody toneed to call you?
Pete Roussos (02:13):
Well, a whole host of things.
It could be people that aredealing with sexual dysfunctions
or sexual issues.
I do a lot of work with couplesthat are wanting to create a
greater sense of connection,emotional connection, through
sex, using sex as a way toconnect with each other at a
(02:35):
deeper level, but also as a wayof expressing themselves and
their sexuality, their eroticism, understanding themselves and
their sexuality and theireroticism more fully and owning
it.
And I think that sex is, youknow, it's a central part of the
human experience, and sex andself-esteem are so closely
(03:00):
connected that I think thatsexual issues and sexual
dynamics can create realcomplications in not just a
divorce process, but can be, youknow, a significant kind of
factor in the tensions thatpeople experience in committed
relationships.
And it ties to issues ofrespect, ties to issues of
(03:25):
acknowledgement andconsideration.
It goes to the core, I think,of what it means to be human.
Shawn Weber (03:33):
So I remember when I was a young man and my mom,
you know, was talking to meabout sex as moms do with their
children on occasion, as moms dowith their children on occasion
and she said you know itdoesn't?
It's not so many people makesuch a big deal out of sex, but
it's like 20 minutes on a goodday.
You know it's it, and so whatare you going to do with the
(03:54):
rest of your time?
That was her response to it,but I think there's something
deeper to that.
Yes, maybe that physical act isa short period of time, but but
it has such an impact on arelationship, doesn't it?
Pete Roussos (04:08):
Absolutely, absolutely, because I think that
it starts with how theindividuals define themselves as
sexual being, and then it's thevulnerability that they're
willing to bring into therelationship to really represent
and talk about who they are andhow they want.
And, ultimately, I think theimportant thing for couples I'm
(04:29):
talking about in the context ofa couple's relationship is how
the partners use sex as a way toconnect with each other, that
sex becomes a vehicle forconnection.
And so you know, that requiresquite a bit of vulnerability, it
requires quite a bit ofdiscipline and commitment,
(04:51):
mindfulness and deliberation.
And it deserves that because,again, I think it's one of the
most important aspects of theexperience of of relationships
that human beings can have.
Shawn Weber (05:08):
Yeah, I think it bears mentioning because you
never, you know it's it's notreally relevant to bring up sex
in court for the most part.
Um, you know, we're inCalifornia, for example, is a no
fault state, so if somebody hadan affair, nobody cares.
If the sex life was bad, nobodycares at court.
Or if sex stopped happening, Umand but, but.
(05:30):
Um, it's one of those.
You know, we had a podcastepisode that we've done before,
talking about relevant,irrelevant issues, and it's one
of those, those huge issues thatare just.
You know, you can't do divorcelaw, for the amount of time that
I've done it, without hearing alot of people telling me more
information about their sex lifethan I thought I needed to know
.
But I think that's an exampleof why it is really important to
(05:54):
people as a human.
Mark Hill (05:59):
I've seen it have Sorry, sean I've seen it have
financial impact too.
Have financial impact too.
In other words, if there's beenan affair and money has been
spent on the new paramour, thenthere's a reimbursement issue.
There are concerns around.
You know the children and Ihave.
(06:23):
You know introducing to newpartners can be a huge issue
that can blow up a divorce case,and I think that the most
difficult cases are ones wherethe jilted party or the person
(06:43):
that perceives them as beingwronged because there was an
affair on the other side, wantsor feels entitled to some kind
of financial remuneration.
They want to be paid for theirpain.
They think there's a value thatshould be attached to that and,
as you just pointed out, nobodycares in the courts.
(07:03):
But it can disrupt a case andprevent it from moving forward.
Shawn Weber (07:10):
And when we also talk about, you know, okay, so
somebody has sex outside of therelationship.
There's a betrayal there.
There's also the couples thatjust stop having sex with each
other.
I've also had the cases wherethey're getting divorced but
they continue to be, you know,for lack of a better term,
friends with benefits and theycontinue having sex, which
(07:33):
always struck me as amazing.
But you said something before,as we were preparing for this
Pete, that that you know thesexual dysfunction that you see,
or the, or maybe, or maybe, Idon't know sexual weirdness
that's my word that you mightsee it's usually symptomatic of
something else.
Pete Roussos (07:53):
Yeah, I think that the number one kind of factor
that can cause sexualdifficulties between partners is
an erosion of respect and thedevelopment of resentment for
issues outside of the bedroom.
You know, I think that,generally speaking, when people
(08:14):
get married, people want to bewanted, they want to be chosen,
they want to be desired, theywant to certainly think of
themselves and experiencethemselves as being desirable,
certainly think of themselvesand experience themselves as
being desirable.
And so if you're in arelationship and that sense of
connection or being cherished asthat begins to diminish, or if
(08:34):
you think your partner isn'ttreating you appropriately or
treating you respectfully, thatis going to impact the extent to
which, for most people, I thinkit has an impact on the the,
the extent to which they want tobe sexual with the other person
.
Sex often gets weaponized.
It's often used as a way ofpunishing people.
(08:55):
But I think and this is ageneralization and I'm talking
about an emotional terms, I'mnot talking about in terms of
people that might be interestedin kink behaviors and things
like that but I think, ingenerally speaking, people are
not interested in having sexwith people whom they don't
think respect them or considerthem or who don't have their
(09:17):
best interests at heart.
And so if the collaborativealliance between partners is
broken down outside of thebedroom, if I can frame it that
way, in these other areas of themarriage whether it be, you
know, roles and responsibilitiesto keep the house up, in
co-parenting, in financialcontributions, in relationships
with extended family, whateverit is if the collaborative
(09:41):
alliance is breaking down inthose parts of the relationship,
it's likely to have a negativeimpact on the sexual dynamics
between the partners as well,and so, in that way, I think the
sexual dysfunction is oftensymptomatic of these other
dynamics.
Shawn Weber (10:01):
Yeah, which I mean you're describing things that
can be very toxic to arelationship.
Absolutely, the lack of respectpiece, I think, is really big,
isn't it, you know?
Pete Roussos (10:13):
I think it's the most per pernicious factor in in
relationship breakdown.
Shawn Weber (10:23):
Really yeah, and in what way?
What are you?
Pete Roussos (10:28):
seeing that leads you to that conclusion.
Well, again, I think that it'shard to be generous and I think
an erosion of respect is morelikely to create a quid pro quo
kind of economy between partners.
You know, it's hard to begenerous with somebody that you
don't think reciprocates withgenerosity, and it's hard to be
generous with somebody that youdon't think respects you or
(10:50):
considers you.
So when people begin to thinkthat they're being maltreated,
that is going to fuel the ideathat they deserve more, that
they deserve better.
Now, I think that sense that Ideserve more and I deserve
better.
I think that that makes peoplemore susceptible, if you will,
(11:10):
or vulnerable, to the validationthat they could receive from an
affair partner, for example.
Shawn Weber (11:18):
I was going to say.
I've had so many cases wherethe person that stepped out of
the relationship said that theystepped out of the relationship
because the person that theywere in the relationship with
was cold or didn't respect them.
When they were with this newperson, they felt loved, they
felt validated, as you weresaying yeah, and that there was
(11:43):
a reason why they left therelationship.
You know, and I've been toldthat I should not excuse bad
behavior by saying, well, theyleft the relationship because
somebody was, you know, cold athome.
But it's not a vacuum, right,there's all these things that
are happening as a result of therelationship dynamic I would
(12:04):
imagine.
Pete Roussos (12:05):
Well, you know, when I talk with, and I do a lot
of work with couples that arecoming to me because there's
been an affair and they'rereally trying to heal and
recover from it, and I thinkit's really important that I say
to those couples, those clients, at the start of the work and
this is always something when Isay this, people look at me like
I'm crazy.
(12:25):
But I say to them you know, itis possible for a person to have
an affair with integrity, andthey look at me like I'm nuts,
but then I go to explain what itis.
Yeah, and this is what it is.
So you know, most certainly.
You know, I think it's quitecommon for couples, when they
get married, they pledgefidelity to each other.
(12:47):
Right, they're making amonogamous commitment.
That's usually where mostcouples start.
Mark Hill (12:52):
Yep.
Pete Roussos (12:53):
And so an affair with integrity is when partner A
goes to partner B and says hey,look, I know, when we got
married, we promised to befaithful to each other, but I
decided that I'm no longerwilling to uphold that promise.
I haven't acted on it yet, Ihaven't done that yet, I haven't
(13:14):
violated it yet, but I'vedecided that I'm going to, and
I'm telling you about it first,because I recognize that you
have a choice in this as well.
That is what an affair withintegrity looks like, because I
think the evaluation of anaffair, what it's really about,
is one partner unilaterallytaking the other person's choice
(13:35):
away.
And so, in the example that yougave, if partner A goes to
partner B and says, hey, myexperience of you is that you're
treating me coldly, that you'retreating me disrespectfully,
and I've decided that I'm nolonger willing to tolerate that.
So we either need to work onthis together or I'm going to
(13:59):
have to maybe make some toughdecisions about our relationship
.
Mark Hill (14:03):
And how often do you see somebo dy actually doing
that, Peter, without yourcoaching ahead of time?
Pete Roussos (14:14):
It's never happened.
But I'll tell you why.
The intervention, why myframing it that way, I think is
really important Because it saysto the partner who had the
affair what you did was youunilaterally took the other
person's choice away and youhave to own that.
There was nothing in themarriage that justifies you
(14:35):
doing that.
Shawn Weber (14:37):
I think that's huge .
Mark Hill (14:38):
Most people would recognize that they themselves
don't want their choicesunilaterally taken away from
them.
Shawn Weber (14:45):
The sin.
Here I mean, I'm using the wordsin loosely-
Pete Roussos (14:49):
yeah, yeah
Shawn Weber (14:50):
But the sin here is not so much the affair although
I'm not going to, you know,debate people about that but
it's more about you took mychoice away to decide whether I
wanted to be in a relationshipwith a person that did not honor
the vows that we took in frontof our priest and God and
everybody.
Pete Roussos (15:08):
Or even for you.
You took my choice away from meas to whether or not I was
willing to work on the fact thatyou're sexually dissatisfied
with me or that you're just.
You know, you're frustrated theway we define roles and
responsibilities, whatever theissue was.
Whatever the issue was.
Shawn Weber (15:27):
I had a guy the other day that I was talking to
and he had an affair, beenhaving an affair for two years,
yeah, and then he finally, youknow, told his wife.
Pete Roussos (15:39):
Mm-hmm.
Shawn Weber (15:42):
And he acknowledged .
He said I did this the wrongway.
I didn't.
He used your word, word.
He said I did not haveintegrity.
I should have said somethingtwo years ago and that was my
mistake.
I was wrong, but what he haddone had caused so much damage
in the relationship and so nowshe's like well, I don't, I
(16:04):
thought I could trust you, butnow I don't know if I can trust
you about our money.
Pete Roussos (16:10):
Here's the other side of it, though, Shawn, and I
think that and again, this isthe conversation that I have
with couples that are trying toaddress the aftermath of an
affair the really importantpiece of work or a really
(16:30):
important piece of their work iscoming to understand and take
responsibility for the fact thatthey made this unilateral
decision.
It was a usurpation of theother person's autonomy.
For a grieved spouse, thechallenge of the work is being
able to see the affair as asmall piece of a much bigger
marital picture.
It's an important piece, butthere's a bigger picture, and
(16:51):
the bigger picture is thisco-created dynamic that all
couples co-create theirrelationship, and so what was
happening between the partners?
What was that person notspeaking up about that was
leading to the erosion ofrespect or the furthering of
resentment?
You know what was going onbetween the part.
(17:12):
I mean, it's always interestingto me when couples come in and
they've had an affair, and oneof the things that they'll point
to is the fact that theyhaven't been having sex.
I always want to know well,what did you think would happen
when you guys stopped having sex?
Mark Hill (17:27):
Yeah,
Shawn Weber (17:30):
that pressure would go somewhere.
Is that what you're saying?
Pete Roussos (17:32):
Yeah, what did you think For these two people as
sexual beings?
What did you think would happen?
Well, I never thought that shewould have an affair or he would
have an affair.
Okay, you didn't think that,but what did you think would
happen?
And often I've got to verypainstakingly stick with that
(17:55):
question because people want toavoid owning the fact that often
they just choose to ignore it.
Which means they let down theirpart, their end of the
(18:18):
stewardship responsibility thatboth partners have for all
facets of the relationship,including the sexual part of the
relationship.
I'm wondering, peter, do yousee gender differences?
And the reason I ask that isbecause I recall a case I had
where the husband had beenseeing prostitutes.
They'd stopped having sex andhe'd been seeing prostitutes and
he'd foolishly put it on acredit card and his wife found
it and she ended up then havingan affair with somebody they
both knew and he was incensedMine didn't mean anything, you
(18:43):
wouldn't have sex with me, itwas just an act.
But now you have this emotionalrelationship with Bill, who we
both know, and every time I seehim in church or whatever it is
you know.
And so is that a genderdifference?
Well, I think there are, and Idon't think this is born out of
(19:05):
research.
But the anecdotal sense thatI've heard, you know, within the
field, is that for women, anemotional'm talking really more
(19:26):
about heterosexual relationships.
For women, if their husband hasan emotional connection with
somebody else, that's a greaterbetrayal, and for men, if a
female partner has a sexualconnection with another man,
that's a greater betrayal.
I don't know if that holds upin terms of the research, but to
(19:49):
me, mark, what's so interestingabout that scenario that you're
describing and I've heardstories like that.
What I'm always curious aboutis what does, in that example,
the guy think it communicates tohis wife that he's willing to
have sex.
That doesn't mean anything.
And how in the world is thatsupposed to make her feel good
(20:11):
about having sex with him?
And then, all of a sudden, youknow when that is on the table.
That opens up this much broaderdiscussion about dynamics in
the relationship, what sex meansto them both, and you know what
people can communicate to eachother, or what they really are
communicating to each other bythe way they view sex and by the
(20:34):
way they engage with sex.
The other thing we've seen a couple of times,
sean and it's not that prevalent, but we have seen it of couples
deciding to go into openrelationships and then one
deciding it's not working forthem and the other one goes,
it's working just fine.
And those cases are verycomplicated, very complicated
(21:01):
and and and uh, it can be verydifficult to at least from my
layman's standpoint, tounderstand what that dynamic
does in the divorce and how dowe approach that in?
Shawn Weber (21:15):
well, I would differentiate these cases.
We've had the cases where theyhave they identify as
polyamorous right and from theoutset they've had multiple
partners.
That's not what I'm talking,we're talking about here.
What we're talking about isthey were, they were married as
monogamous couple and then oneof them brought up, hey, could
we try having multiple partnersand there would be various.
(21:39):
I mean, they would both try itor maybe one would try it.
And I mean, when I'm I get itthat I'm seeing a skewed
population, probably becausethey're all coming to for a
divorce.
But what?
What usually happens whenthey're looking for a divorce is
one of them didn't feelcomfortable with it, maybe
actually participated in it,felt gross about it, and then it
(22:00):
just kind of poisonedeverything after that.
I've seen that.
I mean, what are your thoughtson that?
Mark Hill (22:05):
Pete represents is a situation where one of the
partners is initiating a reallysignificant renegotiation or
redefining of the maritalcontract and so where I think
healthy divorces if you will Ican't think of a better way to
(22:27):
frame it that happen under thosecircumstances are when people
really decide and own what'swhat's solid in them about their
sexuality.
And if a person decides that itwould be a violation of their
integrity to engage in certainsexual practices, you know some
(22:49):
people have decided they justcan't cross that line because it
violates their integrity.
For other people it may be thatthey're not willing to
sacrifice certain aspects oftheir sexuality because it would
be such a gross violation oftheir integrity.
You know people that are endinga marriage for those reasons.
Those can be really sad anddifficult processes, but it can
(23:12):
actually bring people togetherin a divorce process working in
a more collaborative way becausethey both recognize that this
really is about authenticity,rather than it being that one
person is feeling spurned or theother person is feeling like
it's just not enough, wheretheir self-esteem is taking a
(23:32):
really more personal injury orgetting diminished in that way.
So I think they're reallycomplicated cases and for
couples that are trying tonavigate the opening of a
relationship, often the processfor them, and really trying to
(23:54):
explore and figure out is therea meeting in the middle that can
work for them both, if onepartner wants not monogamy and
the other person wants monogamy?
Those can be tough distances totry to bridge, tough
differences to try to bridge,and so it's.
I mean I've had a number ofcases where couples have just
(24:16):
decided, for the right reasons,that they can't stay married
because doing so would be toomuch of a sacrifice for either
one or both of the clients.
Shawn Weber (24:27):
I've got another question.
Go ahead, Mark.
Pete Roussos (24:29):
If I may.
I know we're running out oftime here.
I had a guy once who had hadmultiple affairs, admitted it,
and then he turned to me onetime and he said but I'm just a
sex addict.
I've been diagnosed as a sexaddict by my therapist and it
was almost like, well, I can'tdo anything about it, it's not
my fault, I'm an addict.
(24:50):
What do you think about that?
Mark Hill (24:52):
do anything about it, it's not my fault, I'm an
addict.
What do you think about that?
Well, there is nothing in thescience that establishes that
there is such a thing as sexualaddiction.
One of the things that Ispecialize in is the treatment
of out-of-control sexualbehaviors, and that is a very
real thing, and part of thetreatment for that is helping
the individual, and this workalso happens in the context of
(25:14):
couples work, but reallyfiguring out and defining their
view of what healthy sexualexpression is.
So the concern that I have withsomebody who continues to
engage in what they regard asaddictive behavior is what's the
understanding behind that?
And to me it can be in.
(25:36):
The concern that I have is itis a way of abdicating
responsibility that allows aperson to continue engaging in
behaviors that is eitherunhealthy to them or destructive
to people that they purportedlycare.
Shawn Weber (25:50):
You can't use the excuse of an addiction, you're
saying, to justify your poorchoices.
Mark Hill (25:55):
Right, and also one of the reasons why the notion of
sexual addiction, I think, isdangerous is you can abstain
from smoking, you can abstainfrom drinking, you can abstain
from gambling, you can abstainfrom overeating, but for human
beings, abstaining from sex isreally contrary to who we are as
(26:18):
biological creatures, and so Ithink it's all about coming to
terms with and defining what area person's healthy sexual
practices.
Shawn Weber (26:30):
Where does religion play into that?
I've had cases where a veryreligious couple and then it
came out, you know, the wifefound that the husband had been
engaging in a lot of pornographyviewing and masturbation and
things like that and it reallyupset her because she viewed it
(26:51):
as the same as an affair andtheir religious teachings were
that it was wrong and it wasvery difficult for them to
reconcile that.
I mean, what have you seen asfar as people's values around
sex and how that impacts?
Mark Hill (27:08):
I think religion and faith has a very, very
significant impact on how peopledefine what's appropriate,
what's normal, what's okay.
(27:29):
There, I think, is a processthat can be really difficult and
terrifying for people when theyrealize that there's something
that is just dissonant for themvis-a-vis their religious
community or faith community andwhat it is that they feel
inside in terms of their ownsexuality.
In terms of their own sexualityand that process of exploring
(27:53):
that can be incredibly painfuland incredibly frightening, but
be really what's required for aperson to be able to move
towards a greater authenticsense of who they are as a
sexual being and how they definetheir eroticism.
Shawn Weber (28:07):
Sexuality with integrity.
Again it comes back to theintegrity piece and authenticity
.
Mark Hill (28:10):
And authenticity and ownership, yeah, sexuality with
integrity.
Shawn Weber (28:12):
Again it comes back , integrity piece and
authenticity and ownership, yeahbut what's upsetting was
upsetting to this woman was thathe was sneaking around the big
part of it right now I don'tknow like do you normally go up
to people and say you know,honey, I really have to look at
pornography every day and wellhow does that go?
Mark Hill (28:30):
But there certainly have been.
You know, I've seen couplesthat they agree on a don't ask,
don't tell kind of approach.
There are couples that there isa level of transparency where,
you know, partner A might go topartner B and say, hey, I'm
feeling like I'd like to besexual tonight.
Would you be interested?
(28:51):
I'd like to be sexual with you.
And partner B might say, well,you know, I'm feeling like I'd
like to be sexual tonight.
Would you be interested?
I'd like to be sexual with you.
And partner B might say, well,I'm just not into it tonight.
And partner A might say, okay,well then, I'm going to use
sexual media and pleasure myself.
There's no one right way ofdoing it, but this is something
for, I think, when somebodypresents the situation that
you're presenting with, I thinkit's really important for the
(29:13):
partner who is upset by thebehavior to really understand
and unpack why, what is it aboutthe behavior that is
threatening or concerning tothem?
And certainly if somebodythinks you do that and you go to
hell, it's understanding right.
But for the other person toalso be able to define and
understand what it is about thatactivity that they enjoy, why
(29:37):
is it meaningful to them and isit providing something that,
upon inspection, they themselvesbelieve is healthy and
appropriate.
Shawn Weber (29:47):
So again, it comes back to choice.
Are you allowing people to makechoices?
And it comes back to choice Areyou allowing people to make
choices?
Mark Hill (29:52):
Yeah, it's a very interesting discussion and I
think we could go for anotherhour and a half talking about it
and maybe we should schedule inmore discussions about this
kind of thing, because I dothink it touches on so much of
(30:13):
what we do in divorce work and Ithink it's also the thing that
ties back to healthy maritalfunctioning as well.
Shawn Weber (30:23):
That's the thread that runs through healthy
marriages as well asdysfunctional marriages.
I think it's an excellent pointbecause I meet with people when
they're divorcing, but I'm alsothinking about and I'm not a
therapist but what's their nextrelationship going to be like
about and you know I'm not atherapist but what's their next
relationship going to be like?
Right, is there somethingthey're going to learn from the
relationship they're in now,that so that maybe the next time
they get into a newrelationship maybe they don't
carry a dysfunction over?
Or?
I wish people would not stopwith their therapy after the
(30:44):
marriage family therapy stops.
I wish they would continue tokind of understand themselves
and what led them to where theyare.
Mark Hill (30:52):
Yeah.
Pete Roussos (30:54):
Yeah, and that's one of the things we do see,
because people go.
I've had clients say this moreoften, men than women, but still
both sexes say this oh, wetried therapy, it didn't work.
Shawn Weber (31:05):
Did n't work.
Pete Roussos (31:15):
It didn't work because we got divorced.
Well, I think sometimes therapyworks because the people get
divorced.
Shawn Weber (31:18):
Yeah, I usually ask well, what is your next partner
going to think about?
Yeah, maybe, maybe you need towork on some things so that your
next partner gets a better, abetter partner.
Yeah, but that takes someintrospection, doesn't it?
Absolutely.
Well, guys, we've done it again.
I think it was.
We spent some time talkingabout some important issues and
(31:40):
so, pete, if someone needed totalk to you about relationships
or sex or divorce work, whatshould they do?
Pete Roussos (31:46):
B east way to get in touch with me is through my
website, which is PeterRoussoscom P-E-T-E-R-R-O-U-S-S-O-S dot
com, and you can email me fromthe contact me page.
Shawn Weber (32:01):
And, mark, if somebody wants to talk to you
about financial infidelity andother financial issues that
impact divorce, what should theydo?
Mark Hill (32:14):
Websi te ame thing.
It's Pacific Divorce Managementis the company pacdivorce.
com P-A-C-D-I-V-O-R-C-E dot comContact form on there and we're
very prompt in getting back toyou if you come through that
door.
Shawn Weber (32:26):
And for a legal perspective on divorce or
needing somebody to help youwork things out in a mediation,
contact me at Again, that'sWeber dispute resolution dot com
.
All right, guys, we'll till nexttime-
Shawn I miss it when you sayWeber like the grill,
Mark Hill (32:46):
like the grill
Well you know, thanks forreminding me that, because
people-
Dispute like we had a disagreement-
Pete Roussos (32:52):
-Ye eah-
Mark Hill (32:53):
and Resolution, like we solved it.
Shawn Weber (32:55):
That really is good marketing, isn't it?
Pete Roussos (32:58):
Yes, yes.
Shawn Weber (32:59):
Genius, I might say , and I'm humbly at your service
.
Mark Hill (33:07):
All right guys.
Pete Roussos (33:08):
Till the next time , take care.
Mark Hill (33:11):
Thanks guys, Bye-bye.
Shawn Weber (33:20):
Thanks for listening to another episode of
the Three Wise men of DivorceMoney, psych and Law.
If you like what you heard, besure to subscribe, leave us a
review and share with others whomay be in a similar place.
Until next time, stay safe,healthy and focused on a
positive, bright future.
This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
(33:43):
Every family law case is unique, so no legal, financial or
mental health advice is intendedduring this podcast.
If you need help with yourspecific situation, feel free to
schedule a time to speak withone of us for a personal
consultation.
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