December 26, 2022 • 40 mins
With the New Year come new resolutions and plans for the upcoming year. But what if your New Year's resolution is to get a divorce? Believe it or not, January is known as "divorce season" in the family law business because so many people decide to call it quits after the holidays.
Divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, talk about divorce in the New Year and things to think about before you take the plunge.
*Certified Specialist - Family Law
The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Peter Roussos (00:00):
This guysthis has been for me a really interesting
conversation. I'm glad we'rehaving it. I need to say to the
two of you, I'm disappointedthat neither one of you
suggested giving Given thetiming of the year that you know
we should have been doing thiswith eggnog. So
Mark Hill (00:20):
well, one more before Christmas we have scheduled to
record we can all come with withour beverage of choice at that
point,
Peter Roussos (00:30):
and your sweaters are way too tasteful for this
time of year guys... ya know?
Shawn Weber (00:39):
Welcome to the three Wiseman of divorce, money,
Psych and law podcast. Sit downwith the California divorce
experts financial divorceconsultant Mark Hill, marriage
and family therapist, PeteRusso's and attorney Shawn
Weber. For a frank and casualconversation about divorce,
separation, co parenting and thedifficult decisions, real people
(01:01):
like you face during these toughtimes. We know that if you are
looking at divorce orseparation, it can be scary and
overwhelming. With combinedexperience of over 60 years of
divorce and conflict management,we are here for you and look
forward to help by sharing ourunique ideas, thoughts and
perspectives on divorce,separation, and co parenting. So
(01:27):
here we are winding down anotheryear. I can't believe it's
December already. It it seemsthat we just did this.
Peter Roussos (01:36):
So let me ask you guys, is there something special
about the end of the year as itrelates to in your mind the
processes of divorce, like whatcomes up for you guys, when you
think about end of the year, orI guess another way of thinking
about is not just ended here butstart of New Year?
Shawn Weber (01:56):
Well, the first thing that happens to me as I
get the people that are tryingto finish their case, and they
want to be divorced by the endof the year. And the only reason
that somebody really needs to beconcerned about divorcing by the
end of the year, if they ifthere's a tax reason for it. So
if they want to file separatelywithout taking the hit and
(02:17):
having to file married filingseparately, it's best if they
can be divorced before the endof the year. Although honestly,
Mark, you and I have experiencedthat most people do better just
waiting until January to callthemselves divorced and then
filing jointly for the year.
Mark Hill (02:32):
Yeah, I mean, that's usually the best outcome saves
the couple both money. They haveto talk to their accountant to
make sure obligations are splitappropriately. And there may be
another small bill from theaccountant to do that work. But
they're better off just about inevery single case, to file
(02:55):
jointly married filing jointly.
And even when we got the caseresolved months ahead of the end
of the year, where the judgmentis signed, it's actually sitting
on the judge's desk and thejudge will sign it early in
January and there'll be finalthem but they can literally then
pile the joint return for thiscurrent tax year.
Shawn Weber (03:16):
I had a case where it was like a week before the
end of the year and I submitteda judgment and I told the people
don't worry, they won't be ableto file this until the end of
the you know until that it won'tbe final until January and lo
and behold at the court didn'tgo ahead and terminate their
marital status on December 30.
Act like that actually processthe judgment in January, but
(03:38):
they thought they were doingthem a favor by processing on
December 30. And it just screwedeverything up for their taxes
Mark Hill (03:45):
Oh boy. Yeah.
Shawn Weber (03:46):
So now I've gotten a habit if they really want to
make sure they're divorcing inthe new year to go ahead and let
the court know when I send. Butum, you know, the courts here in
San Diego do a specialwalkthrough date. But it you
have to turn all the papers in15 days before the walkthrough
date. And they usually set thewalkthrough date like around the
(04:08):
18th of December, depending onthe courtroom. And they think 15
court days, so you have toremove holidays and weekends.
That gets you back pretty far,like towards the beginning of
December, end of November. Andso most people have missed the
opportunity to get theguaranteed walkthrough date. But
the judges are saying that ifyou turn it in now they'll
process it by the end of theyear. I'll see if that's really
true. So I mean, there's that,you know, the other reason that
(04:32):
sometimes people want to have itdone by the end of the year is
just a psychological reason. Ineed to be divorced. You know,
I've had people say that to meand I it doesn't matter to them
as much financially, legally,what really matters to them is
just I need my marital statusterminated this year. I can't go
into a new year being married tothis person. And I get that. I
(04:55):
would probably suggest to folksthat you cut yourself some slack
on that and just remember isSince the date, you know, but
Mark Hill (05:03):
unless there's a desire to remarry in January,
Shawn Weber (05:07):
well, there's that.
I can't tell you how many casesI've had where somebody's got
wedding invitations printedalready, and you're not going to
be divorced by that. Yeah.
Peter Roussos (05:22):
Or I guess, and then, you know, what we're
talking about and thinking aboutthose cases of people who are
contemplating divorce. And andhow many times I've heard over
the course of my career, wherewere couples talk about, you
know, we look, let's wait andnot make the decision or
(05:43):
individuals, let's not make thedecision until the new year, get
through the holidays, make iteasier, perhaps on the children.
And, and I understand that, butat the same time, you know,
there's no best time, I think,to announce the decision to
divorce. I mean, I've seenfamilies were, you know, kids
(06:06):
appreciate the fact that theyhad, they didn't know what was
going on. Until after theholidays and and seen situations
when families were, thewithholding of that information
was actually something that thekids experienced is making it
more difficult and morechallenging.
Shawn Weber (06:23):
We talked about that on our last one. Yeah. That
sometimes the kids feel likethey've been duped? Absolutely.
Absolutely. You know, so, youknow, just kind of recap what we
talked about last time, it'svery important when you think
about the decision to talk tofamily about the divorce, that
you just do it in a unified way.
In a way that's not too cute. Ithink some people try to make it
(06:47):
well, we're gonna get throughChristmas, because it'll be
nice. And we'll open presentstogether. Well, your kids aren't
stupid. You know, even the smallkids can tell when there's
negativity going on. And whenthings are awful. I mean, how
many cases have you had Petewhere somebody says to you? Oh,
my gosh, I'm so glad they'refinally getting divorced.
Peter Roussos (07:07):
Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Shawn Weber (07:12):
Yeah. I think a lot of times what happens not to
recap too much of what we didlast time, but I think a lot of
times what happens is the kidsdo much better than the parents
do. And the parents are kind ofworried about their own
emotions, but they're putting iton their kids don't anything
that happens. Yeah, it's like
Mark Hill (07:29):
the house conversation. I can, I can live
in under an underpass. But Imust have the mansion for the
children, you know,
Shawn Weber (07:37):
yeah. And you find out that the kids are going to
be fine. Kids are far moreadaptable than parents are. Not
that you shouldn't think aboutwhat they do. But sometimes
people put too much weight on,all the children are going to
really suffer.
Mark Hill (07:55):
Well, that's one of the benefits of the
collaborative process is thechildren actually do have a
voice and a separateconversation with a child
specialist who can, you know,basically give a voice to the
kids because we do know thatchildren tend to tell the
parents what they think theywant to hear. And for
Shawn Weber (08:11):
those that are out there that don't know what the
collaborative process is, that'swhen you have similar to what's
going on with our podcast, youhave an attorney to attorneys
that sign an agreement that saysthey're never going to go to
court. So there's always anincentive to stay in the
process. And then you bring in afinancial specialists like Mark
here, or you might bring in acoach, mental health
professional like Pete, and youwould bring in coaches for each
(08:36):
of the parties and you bring achild specialist and having a
voice for those kids that we'veseen that that can be really
huge.
Mark Hill (08:44):
So talking about the new year, I believe there may be
a few people on this call thatare thinking my New Year's
resolution is to finally goforward with the divorce. So
what what should we be thinkingabout if that's on our agenda?
Shawn Weber (09:02):
Number one, call now to your to your
professionals get a processstarted now, in my opinion,
because if you wait until thenew year, you're going to be in
with the crush of all the otherpeople that are thinking the
same way that you do. We call itdivorce season in the industry
for a reason. January, February,is kind of a divorce season
(09:22):
where we get a real rush ofcases. And that's because people
wait until the new year to fileand it just seems to be like a
lot of people that want to fileright,
Peter Roussos (09:31):
Shawn? And I think this is something that
we've also touched on before butI think it would be good for you
to I'm going to ask you toexplain what you regard as the
ideal if you will way for aperson who is is decided to file
for divorce to connect with afamily law attorney you as a
(09:56):
mediator. How do you like to seethose initial inquiries made,
what do you think is, is?
Shawn Weber (10:03):
Well as a mediator, I like it when both parties call
together. Or they can call myoffice and they can have a meet
and greet. And I'll get on azoom with two parties. You know,
it's important for if you'reable to do this, and I
understand that there's somemarriages where this isn't
possible. Okay. So I don't wantto be insensitive to that. But
(10:23):
for for a lot of people, if youcan, you know, Mark, you and I
have always said, the decisionof how you divorce is almost as
important as the decision todivorce. Yes. And so kind of
talking that over with yourspouse, what are the options to
get divorce, and you might evenconsider going to a website,
CPCAL.org, I think he actuallygot a CPcal.com. To and find a
(10:49):
Divorce Options workshop. Andthey're all online now. Because
with with COVID, they've justkind of been doing them all
online, you can do it by zoom,there's some there in person,
but you can meet with anattorney, a financial
specialist, and a mental healthprofessional, and learn about
all of the options for divorce.
You know, from the traditionallitigation model to mediation,
(11:11):
where you have a neutral,working with both parties to
collaborative practice, like wedescribed before, and other
methodologies so that you cantake control and be in charge of
your own divorce. So that's thefirst thing I love it when they
have information. Yeah, workshoplike that is huge.
Mark Hill (11:30):
I agree. Because what tends to happen is, people don't
know what to do. And so theyboth know, the marriage is not
going well. They're havingchallenges in the relationship,
and something will happen. Thatwill scare one of the parties
and they'll go, I need a strongattorney to fight for my rights.
(11:54):
And they go and they hiresomebody who perhaps has a
billboard with knuckle dusterson there they see on the freeway
as they drive by. If they dothat, what kind of attorney do
you think their spouse is goingto hire someone to match that
not a milk toast, not somebodywho's going to just roll over.
So now you're on what I termedthe divorce escalator. And that
(12:17):
goes downwards, folks notupwards. And once you get on it,
it's very hard to get off. Sotalking about the process and
how you want to do this,hopefully, with your spouse, or
at least gathering theinformation, as shown was
suggesting by attending adivorce options workshop is a
really important step.
Shawn Weber (12:35):
But yeah, if you can come in together, that's
better, you know. And then evenif you haven't gone to divorce
options workshop, if you call myoffice, I'll give you that
information.
For example,
Mark Hill (12:44):
I do the same by the way, too. I have calls with both
clients, I engineer those andthat's complimentary. So
Shawn Weber (12:53):
and don't go in thinking that you're going to
get all of your questionsanswered for your case, what you
want to focus on in the firstcall is process. How are we
going to do this not? Am I goingto get to keep the house and
where are the kids going tolive? That will come with the
first thing to do is set thetone with a process that you
choose take control of thatprocess at the beginning,
(13:16):
because when you wait, and youjust call the first billboard
that you see attorney, they'regoing to put you in their
process, which is how they dothings. And there's a lot of
litigators in town, that's allthey do is litigation. And we
kind of joke that if all youhave is a hammer is one of your
tools, and the only thing you'regoing to see around town are
nails. And so the same thingwith the litigator, all they're
(13:38):
going to see and I used to workfor a litigation firm, it's just
standard operating procedure,you file a petition, you go to
court, you send a nasty gram tothe other side and you get
going. And maybe that's not whatyou want. Maybe you wanted to be
more respectful thing. The otherthing paid, maybe this is
something you can comment on isthat conversation you have with
the spouse about process. I'vealways told people, you know,
(14:02):
talk to your spouse and say, youknow, we're getting divorced,
things are hard. They're notbutterflies and rainbows. But we
want I want to honor what wasgood about our relationship, and
I want to put our kids first.
Can we do this in a respectfulway and find a process that will
keep us out of court and keepthis morbid, mutual, respectful
process, but how do you coachpeople to do that?
Peter Roussos (14:23):
Well, I think very much along those lines. And
it's, you know, certainly notunusual, where I have couples
coming in in their firstmeetings with me or because
they've decided to make thedecision to divorce and they
want to explore Okay, what doesthis mean? So I talked with them
about process options, and Ithink what you're talking about
(14:45):
is just this vitally important.
And the way we've defined thisand talked about in a previous
podcast, is the idea of thecouples coming together and
defining the mission statement.
How do they want to go throughthis process? What are the the
objectives that they have thegoals that they have, what do
they want to get out of it, Ilike to talk to two couples who
(15:06):
have made that decision in termsof this is an opportunity to
really redefine, and CO create avery different kind of post
divorce co parentingrelationship, if they have
children, you know that this isan opportunity to really take a
sense of stewardship about howthey want to get through this
process and kind of they cometogether in a collaborative way.
(15:27):
So there's a boundary questionthat I'm curious about for you
both. If if, if an individual ifyour first contact is with an
individual, does that precludeyou from working as a mediator?
With both parties?
Mark Hill (15:49):
My response is, it depends. How was I approached in
the first case, and have Italked specifics of the case, if
I've just talked process withone side, I'm fine with having
the same conversation with theother side. If someone hired me
and said, Oh, I'm getting adivorce. And I just need someone
(16:13):
to look over my shoulder, makesure I don't do anything stupid
from financial standpoint. AndI've looked at the case, and
I've told the person the thingsthey need to be conscious about
as they go through it. And thenthey would come back and say,
Well, I think we're going to useyou as a mediator. It's like,
yeah, that's where I would havesome difficulty, because I've
already sort of, you know,caucus with one side and try to
(16:36):
assist them. But if I've had aconversation with one I've done
nothing but talk process, mynormal, modus operandi is to
literally say, now I need tohave the same conversation with
your wife or with your husband,please, could we set that up,
because we've not talked about,you know, the specifics.
Shawn Weber (16:55):
But my approach is quite similar. I tell people,
okay, I want this needs to be anon substantive process. And we
discussion, we're going to talkabout how you're going to get
divorced. Before we talk aboutthe specifics of your case.
Because the moment I put on ahat and start dispensing legal
advice, I'm forever aligned withyou, I cannot undo that I can't
(17:17):
unring that bell. And so if youwant to use me as a mediator,
which you would be wise toconsider. Because that's really
where my best skill set is, isthe mediation, then let's, let's
limit our conversation toprocess only, you know, where it
gets a little kind of difficult.
Sometimes there's a lot of timeswhen it's only one person
calling, and I can't get themscheduled together, it's because
(17:39):
there's such a communicationbreakdown, right? Or maybe the
other person just can't believethat divorce is really
happening. And any speaking to adivorce professional means that
we're going to make this happen,I've had that happen, we get
that all the time wheresomeone's in denial that there's
really a divorce happening. Andso then sometimes I will, I will
(18:02):
give some suggestions on how totalk to the other person, but
then I might refer them tosomeone like yourself, B, to
really get some coaching, sothat they can figure out how to
enroll the other spouse in aprocess without having to turn
into a court situation. I willtell people, you know, you kind
of talk to the other person,like you do your child in a
(18:23):
respectful way. But I remember,you know, I have five kids. And
when we when they were little,sometimes we'd have this
conversation, you can put on thered shoe or the blue shoe. You
know, give them that choice, butthey're going to wear shoes. And
so it's not very different fromthis, we can do this the nice
friendly mediation orcollaborative way. But if you
(18:44):
refuse to come to the table, I'mgoing to have to hire an
attorney who will just move thisforward in the legal process.
And not that it's a threat. It'sjust letting you know, this is
the reality this is movingforward. And so that happens
too. I'm also aware of thosesituations where you have
coercive control, perhaps frommaybe maybe a person's calling
(19:07):
me and they're afraid to talk tothe other person. And so then
I'll do a little bit of anassessment. And I'll ask some
more deep questions withoutfeeling like I violated
neutrality is to find out what'sgoing on from this person's
perspective. Has there beenviolence, as there have been
stalking behaviors? Does thisperson feel safe, that kind of
thing? So that I can basicallyget them with an attorney?
(19:31):
Because I'm a mediator, I'mgoing to try to stay a mediator
unless they really want me astheir attorney. And by the way,
I'll represent them in acollaborative process, but I
don't go to court. Right. But Iwill get them with an attorney
who could look out for their,you know, safety concerns, like
if there's a domestic violenceconcern, I want to make sure
that gets addressed and they getto the resources that they need
(19:53):
to be safe, but I won't givethat advice. I'll just say no,
you need to talk to them.
Attorney X here who can reallymake sure you need to talk to
them about your safety concerns.
And by the way, you can stillmediate a case where there's
things like that going on. Youjust have to be very careful.
And it's advanced work, but it'sstuff that I do. And a lot of
(20:15):
good mediators have the trainingto do. The answer your question,
Pete? That was a lot of stuff.
Peter Roussos (20:24):
Yeah. And you actually, you also responded to
it part of your answer, answeris something I was curious
about, which is, like, Do youhave a preference? Would you
rather put it that way? I workas the mediator or, you know, be
the consulting attorney. And itsounds like you would rather be
the mediator?
Shawn Weber (20:44):
Me personally.
Yeah, no, I would personallyprefer to be a mediator, because
I just get rid of a charge outof helping people resolve a
difference. I find that I don'tmind representing people. But
what's interesting is actually,I actually changed my fee
structure, I'm $25 more per hourif you want me to represent you.
Because I'm more willing to givemore of myself for less money.
(21:09):
If it's mediation, then if I'm,I'm representing someone,
because that takes more of atoll on me. So then I'm going to
charge $25 More an hour.
Peter Roussos (21:21):
And just, I guess, to reiterate, I want to
make sure that I saying this inthe way that you you, you see
it. And the way you frame it,Shawn is that when possible, the
best way to start a mediationprocess or to explore that is
where both partners meet withthe mediator together, that's
(21:42):
what you'd like to see happen.
Shawn Weber (21:44):
100% that is always better. And I encourage that if
they, if they can't do ittogether, then I'll schedule two
meetings. And it'll be a nonsubstantive meal. It's similar
what Mark was talking about anon substantive meeting with
each of where we talk aboutprocess, and we get there and I
give them the same information.
And I, you know, when it's whenit's a challenging case,
particularly high conflict, orthere's coercive control issues,
(22:09):
I'll set up what we call premarital or pre op, sorry, pre
mediation, counseling, orcoaching is different mediators
call it different things. Butthe idea is you have caucus
sessions that are paid for witheach of the parties prior to the
mediation actually commencing.
(22:30):
But it's understood that you'respending an hour with each of
the parties and talking to themabout their perspective on the
case. And then that's okay,because both Newbold know, I'm
doing this from a neutralperspective, and I'm giving each
of them the same amount of time.
That can be a useful thing todo. Like, if you've got a case
where it's really, really good.
I had a case years ago, wherethe wife was just absolutely
(22:52):
terrified of the husband, and hereally was kind of a turkey, he
really did exert somemanipulative behaviors, and that
those those pre mediationmeetings, were really crucial to
be able to help kind of setboundaries and have some clarity
about what's really going on. Sothat I could then help the
parties then reach a resolutionbecause even though the husband
(23:15):
was kind of a turkey, I neededto be neutral to him. And help
them both reach an agreement.
And by the way, you can, like Isaid, you can do domestic
violence cases, you might ifthere's a restraining order, you
might have to modify therestraining order to allow for
mediation to happen. But youknow, it might, you know, if we
(23:36):
do it by zoom, there's nocontact at all, they don't even
have to see each other. And ifthey do it at my office, I've
got different conference rooms,and we have precautions for how
we can make sure that it's safe.
Yeah, the interesting stuff. Butyeah, I mean, if people were
(23:56):
thinking about this, end of theyear thing, and thinking that
this is their, their kind oftheir decision point, I get it.
I mean, this is a, I do it everyyear with, you know, taking
stock of how my year went andwhere I'm going, and my next
year, I come up with a word formyself every year for oh, I'm
going to live my life and run mybusiness and I can totally see
(24:18):
where somebody's like, you know,I need to make this change. I
need to do it soon. And so, youknow, I, my best advice would be
Communicate, communicate,communicate, and maybe you don't
tell the kids immediately butyou probably ought to start
talking to professionals aboutprocess soon, so that you can
plan for it. So that when you'reready to pull the trigger on
(24:40):
this thing, sorry, it's anunfortunate metaphor, but when
you're ready to get started onthis thing, you can you're ready
to go and you've got the thetools you know, available to you
to do what you need to do. Andas I always tell my clients stay
in charge
Mark Hill (24:59):
because once thing that does tend to happen if you
go the litigation route is thatyour attorney will have you fill
out the papers to file thedivorce. And then those papers
need to be served on the otherspouse. And it's not done as I
know from better personalexperience of sitting in my nice
(25:20):
office in La Jolla and having abiker walk in to reception and
drop a paper in front of otherdivers, a financial adviser,
then a nice firm, and saw thepapers dropped by this biker on
a table. And as I walked up tohim said, You've been sued buddy
and turned around and left infront of other clients, it did
(25:42):
not set a good tone for thedivorce was basically like being
slapped in the face. So beaware, if you do go with the
litigation route, have aconversation about how to serve
and not embarrass your spouse atthat workplace or somewhere, you
know, where they feel that thereare social pressures, frankly,
Shawn Weber (26:02):
oh, and this is very important. There's no such
thing anymore as a secretlyfiled petition. So we've had
people in the past as well, I'mgoing to file a petition, but
I'm not going to serve the otherperson yet. until I'm ready to
talk to them about it. That is amistake. Because you there are
these unethical people that willtroll the court website and are
(26:23):
looking for filings and theywill reach out to your spouse to
solicit business from them. Sothey can provide legal services
to even you may not realizethis, but you've been sued, and
I'm here to represent you andbad things can happen to you.
And and if the first time you'rehearing about the divorce is
from some third party, unethicalsalesperson, that's, that's not
(26:48):
good. So don't think that filingdon't file unless you want the
other person to see it. And thenI would recommend that the
service happen quickly. But takecharge of your service, you
don't have to use Guido, likeMark was describing to show up
at Town person's office, we cando this in a friendly way. That
(27:12):
mediations, we just have themsign a piece of paper that says
okay, I got it, and then theydon't have to send a processor.
Peter Roussos (27:17):
You know, I'm I'm wondering to those folks
listening who have made thedecision that they want to get
divorced, if it would be I'mthinking it would be useful if
you could talk a bit about whatthey should expect visa vie
time. This is a generalizationbut I imagine that it almost
(27:40):
always takes longer than thenparticularly the motivated.
client wants it to. But justwhat's the end? I guess the
other complexity is if if afterthe first of the year, that's a
busier time in your practice,Shawn, because people starting a
process. How do you talk topeople? Again, something we've
(28:03):
touched on before but in thiscontext of you've made the
decision to do it? How do youlet them know what they should
expect visa vie time.
Shawn Weber (28:12):
First of all, realize that divorce
professionals have never been asbusy as they are right now. Post
COVID It's been apocalyptic formarriages, I think I'm going to
be really interested in seeingwhat the research will show
about statistics. But everyoneI've talked to has said that the
(28:33):
divorces have just been throughthe roof. And more difficult and
more difficult because peopleare just more the anxiety is
higher, the anger levels arehigher. It's just a crazy weird
between the political climateand the COVID situation. It's
just very difficult. So justknow your attorney is going to
be crazy busy and will not be asresponsive to you as that person
(28:56):
would like to be. Okay. And I,my poor clients, I'm trying but
but we're all just swamped.
Yeah. The other thing is berealistic about how long these
things take. It's not likeyou're going to walk into your
attorney's office or new mediayears of mediators office and
the following week, you're goingto be divorced. It's a process.
(29:16):
And it takes some time, onaverage six to eight months for
a mediated divorce is myexperience. If it's complex,
like there's financialcomplexities or emotional
complexities, it'll take a yearor two times longer. Mark, we
have cases that God five yearsYeah. You know, so everybody's
different. So just kind of berealistic about what it's going
(29:41):
to take to unwind this.
Mark Hill (29:44):
And I would say also don't want it to be over fast,
in a way because this is thelargest financial transaction of
most people's lifetimes. Youwant to get it right. Just
getting it done. I understandit. Why Get it done. I want this
behind me, I want to moveforward with my life. I get all
that, however, you don't want tolook at it three years down the
(30:09):
road and go, Oh, that was reallystupid. I shouldn't have made
that financial decision. Ididn't understand it, I was
rushing to get it done. So you,you know you? Yes, you want to
get it done in a timely fashion.
But you want to get it doneright more important than time
Shawn Weber (30:25):
when How many times have you left the car dealership
realized something that youshould have thought about in the
car dealership, now have a caror I just had a window guy come
to our house. And Carrie and Iare like, Oh, we should talk
about that we should borrow thissign because they pressure you
know, like, oh, you lose money.
If you don't sign this second.
(30:50):
You want your windows done,right? But you need to be kind
of realistic about this is goingto be more work than you've
probably done on any project inyour life. And that includes
your professional work. That'sfor most people. That's the
report I get. Yep. And this islike successful CEOs that have
built large companies. And andand they will tell you, this is
(31:13):
the hardest work they've everengaged in. So be realistic
about that it's going to takework. I always tell my clients,
I'll meet you halfway, I willnever work harder than my
client. Good professional willtell you that if they try to do
everything for you, it'sprobably a bad process. And just
it takes time. And a lot oftimes there's also that issue.
(31:34):
And we've talked about before onthis podcast, where someone's
ready to go. And someone's notthere yet. Yep. And what we've
learned is is slower is faster.
So and the other thing is, youknow, if you go to court, you
know, as opposed to a mediatedprocess, I absolutely promise
and guarantee you it'll takefour times as long. Because the
(31:56):
courts are even more overwhelmedthan we are. And they have just
a simple motion heard can takesix months to a year. Yeah.
Where whereas we can do thingsfaster. So just kind of if
you've never experienced thisbefore, most people have not
been through divorce. Or maybeyou've been through one divorce,
(32:19):
or two, you know, we have ourrepeat offenders. Serial
monogamists. But most peoplethis is they've not experienced
this before. And so you don'tknow that this pace, it feels
very glacial is actually at warpspeed.
Mark Hill (32:43):
People come in talking to me about I can't tell
you how many people have walkedin and said, well, our case is
pretty simple. We've gotpensions, I have some stock
options, and she did get ininheritance. But we kind of
talked about it. It's all prettystraightforward. Read
Shawn Weber (33:00):
everything already.
Yeah.
Mark Hill (33:03):
That's often the most difficult case is because there
are presumptions that peoplehave made before they had all
the information necessary tomake an informed, truly informed
decision. And
Shawn Weber (33:16):
you mean you want your inheritance to remain
separate property? I didn'trealize that's what we were
talking about. You know, thathappens, right? Yeah. Well, when
they actually see what thesupport numbers are, whether
it's the payer or the payee,they're both going to be unhappy
with that number, because it'salways more than the pay pay
order wants to pay and less thanthe payee wants to receive. And
they're both right. Becausethere's just not enough money to
(33:38):
go around. Yep. And so you know,giving yourself a little bit of
patience and a little bit offlexibility and understanding
compassion for yourself. This isgoing to take some time and that
you're going to need to adjustto it is a really good approach.
Peter Roussos (33:57):
This disguise this has been for me a really
interesting conversation. I'mglad we're having those. I need
to say to the two of you, I'mdisappointed that neither one of
you suggested giving Given thetiming of the year that you know
we should have been doing thiswith eggnog
Mark Hill (34:16):
so well, one more before Christmas we have
scheduled to record we can allcome with with our beverage of
choice at that point.
Peter Roussos (34:27):
And your sweaters are way too tasteful.
Shawn Weber (34:35):
Well, I always thought that that song Auld Lang
zine was very appropriate forNew Years in divorce. And old
acquaintance be forgot. Somepeople aim for Can I just
forget? But well So
Peter Roussos (34:52):
Shawn. So if if somebody has made the decision
to to get divorced, how do theyGet in touch with
Shawn Weber (35:00):
you. Well, the best thing to do would be to go to my
website firstWeberdisputeresolution.com
That's Weber with one be likethe grill dispute, like we had a
fight resolution like we solvedit.com. And we will, you know,
if you have any kind of dispute,we will match you with a
(35:20):
mediator who will help youresolve your dispute, and we can
talk about these things. And ifyou're doing a divorce, if you
can pull it off, let's get bothof you to talk to me or, and we
can, we can figure out a processthat will work for you.
Peter Roussos (35:36):
And Mark, if people have financial questions
about divorce or other financialquestions, what's the best way
to get a hold of you?
Mark Hill (35:43):
My website, Pacdivorce.com PAC di vo rce.com
lays out exactly how we dothings how we approach things
like shown we don't go to courtanymore. But we can help you
resolve your issue if you wantto work in a mediated
(36:04):
environment. And we can alsohelp on one side if you just
want some information to know ifthe you're in the process and
know if what you're deciding todo make sense financially so we
can help on all those levels.
Peter Roussos (36:17):
Peter? Yeah, I you know, and I think that
here's the pitch that I'd liketo make today that I'm hoping
that that people are listeningto this, who are thinking about
divorce, but they're open to thepossibility of doing marital
therapy to see whether or notthere's a way to save their
marriage. Because I think ofthat is is my primary specialty
(36:40):
working with couples that arereally struggling. concerned
that there isn't a way forwardfor them. Those are the couples
that I really enjoy workingwith. And so if you're
interested in that kind of aservice, my website is Peter
Russos.com, p e t e r r o u s s,o s.com. I'm also available to
(37:03):
help families that are goingthrough divorce processes in the
way of coaching and support arethe kinds of processes that
Shawn and Mark offer.
Shawn Weber (37:13):
And we love working with you, Pete, you always make
the case more smooth.
Peter Roussos (37:17):
Well, I love and enjoy working with the two of
you and have such respect foryou know, I can't tell you how
many times I find myselflistening to the two of you, and
just being really impressed andappreciative of of how sharp you
are, how compassionate you are,and how much I think you just
(37:39):
really understand and know howto work with relational
dynamics. So it certainly makesworking with you guys very
smooth. And quite honestly,you're also really delightful.
And it makes the process fun.
Shawn Weber (37:52):
So, you know, Pete, if ever I suffer from
depression, I'm just going tohang out with you. And have you
say things like that?
Peter Roussos (38:02):
Any time and
Shawn Weber (38:07):
it's a mutual feeling, isn't it? Yes, indeed.
Peter Roussos (38:10):
Thank you guys.
It really is a pleasure doingthis with you.
Shawn Weber (38:14):
All right, and to those out there in podcast land
that are listening to us.
Please, like us say nice thingsabout us online. If you know
somebody that needs to hear whatwe have to say please share our
podcast with them. We'reavailable anywhere where you can
download a podcast. I thinkwe're pretty much universal now.
So love that we have listenersout there, those of you that are
regular listeners, we reallylove you and those of you that
(38:36):
would share with others what wedo we I think we have an
important message to share. Sonow at the end of the year, we
wish you a very Happy Holidaysand very prosperous new year.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of the three wise men of
divorce, money, Psych, and law.
(38:58):
If you liked what you heard, besure to subscribe. Leave us a
review and share with others whomay be in a similar place. Until
next time, stay safe, healthyand focused on a positive bright
future. This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
Every family law case is unique.
So no legal, financial or mentalhealth advice is intended during
(39:21):
this podcast. If you need helpwith your specific situation,
feel free to schedule a time tospeak with one of us for a
personal consultation.
This guysthis has been for me a really interesting
conversation. I'm glad we'rehaving it. I need to say to the
two of you, I'm disappointedthat neither one of you
suggested giving Given thetiming of the year that you know
we should have been doing thiswith eggnog. So
Mark Hill (00:20):
well, one more before Christmas we have scheduled to
record we can all come with withour beverage of choice at that
point,
Peter Roussos (00:30):
and your sweaters are way too tasteful for this
time of year guys... ya know?
Shawn Weber (00:39):
Welcome to the three Wiseman of divorce, money,
Psych and law podcast. Sit downwith the California divorce
experts financial divorceconsultant Mark Hill, marriage
and family therapist, PeteRusso's and attorney Shawn
Weber. For a frank and casualconversation about divorce,
separation, co parenting and thedifficult decisions, real people
(01:01):
like you face during these toughtimes. We know that if you are
looking at divorce orseparation, it can be scary and
overwhelming. With combinedexperience of over 60 years of
divorce and conflict management,we are here for you and look
forward to help by sharing ourunique ideas, thoughts and
perspectives on divorce,separation, and co parenting. So
(01:27):
here we are winding down anotheryear. I can't believe it's
December already. It it seemsthat we just did this.
Peter Roussos (01:36):
So let me ask you guys, is there something special
about the end of the year as itrelates to in your mind the
processes of divorce, like whatcomes up for you guys, when you
think about end of the year, orI guess another way of thinking
about is not just ended here butstart of New Year?
Shawn Weber (01:56):
Well, the first thing that happens to me as I
get the people that are tryingto finish their case, and they
want to be divorced by the endof the year. And the only reason
that somebody really needs to beconcerned about divorcing by the
end of the year, if they ifthere's a tax reason for it. So
if they want to file separatelywithout taking the hit and
(02:17):
having to file married filingseparately, it's best if they
can be divorced before the endof the year. Although honestly,
Mark, you and I have experiencedthat most people do better just
waiting until January to callthemselves divorced and then
filing jointly for the year.
Mark Hill (02:32):
Yeah, I mean, that's usually the best outcome saves
the couple both money. They haveto talk to their accountant to
make sure obligations are splitappropriately. And there may be
another small bill from theaccountant to do that work. But
they're better off just about inevery single case, to file
(02:55):
jointly married filing jointly.
And even when we got the caseresolved months ahead of the end
of the year, where the judgmentis signed, it's actually sitting
on the judge's desk and thejudge will sign it early in
January and there'll be finalthem but they can literally then
pile the joint return for thiscurrent tax year.
Shawn Weber (03:16):
I had a case where it was like a week before the
end of the year and I submitteda judgment and I told the people
don't worry, they won't be ableto file this until the end of
the you know until that it won'tbe final until January and lo
and behold at the court didn'tgo ahead and terminate their
marital status on December 30.
Act like that actually processthe judgment in January, but
(03:38):
they thought they were doingthem a favor by processing on
December 30. And it just screwedeverything up for their taxes
Mark Hill (03:45):
Oh boy. Yeah.
Shawn Weber (03:46):
So now I've gotten a habit if they really want to
make sure they're divorcing inthe new year to go ahead and let
the court know when I send. Butum, you know, the courts here in
San Diego do a specialwalkthrough date. But it you
have to turn all the papers in15 days before the walkthrough
date. And they usually set thewalkthrough date like around the
(04:08):
18th of December, depending onthe courtroom. And they think 15
court days, so you have toremove holidays and weekends.
That gets you back pretty far,like towards the beginning of
December, end of November. Andso most people have missed the
opportunity to get theguaranteed walkthrough date. But
the judges are saying that ifyou turn it in now they'll
process it by the end of theyear. I'll see if that's really
true. So I mean, there's that,you know, the other reason that
(04:32):
sometimes people want to have itdone by the end of the year is
just a psychological reason. Ineed to be divorced. You know,
I've had people say that to meand I it doesn't matter to them
as much financially, legally,what really matters to them is
just I need my marital statusterminated this year. I can't go
into a new year being married tothis person. And I get that. I
(04:55):
would probably suggest to folksthat you cut yourself some slack
on that and just remember isSince the date, you know, but
Mark Hill (05:03):
unless there's a desire to remarry in January,
Shawn Weber (05:07):
well, there's that.
I can't tell you how many casesI've had where somebody's got
wedding invitations printedalready, and you're not going to
be divorced by that. Yeah.
Peter Roussos (05:22):
Or I guess, and then, you know, what we're
talking about and thinking aboutthose cases of people who are
contemplating divorce. And andhow many times I've heard over
the course of my career, wherewere couples talk about, you
know, we look, let's wait andnot make the decision or
(05:43):
individuals, let's not make thedecision until the new year, get
through the holidays, make iteasier, perhaps on the children.
And, and I understand that, butat the same time, you know,
there's no best time, I think,to announce the decision to
divorce. I mean, I've seenfamilies were, you know, kids
(06:06):
appreciate the fact that theyhad, they didn't know what was
going on. Until after theholidays and and seen situations
when families were, thewithholding of that information
was actually something that thekids experienced is making it
more difficult and morechallenging.
Shawn Weber (06:23):
We talked about that on our last one. Yeah. That
sometimes the kids feel likethey've been duped? Absolutely.
Absolutely. You know, so, youknow, just kind of recap what we
talked about last time, it'svery important when you think
about the decision to talk tofamily about the divorce, that
you just do it in a unified way.
In a way that's not too cute. Ithink some people try to make it
(06:47):
well, we're gonna get throughChristmas, because it'll be
nice. And we'll open presentstogether. Well, your kids aren't
stupid. You know, even the smallkids can tell when there's
negativity going on. And whenthings are awful. I mean, how
many cases have you had Petewhere somebody says to you? Oh,
my gosh, I'm so glad they'refinally getting divorced.
Peter Roussos (07:07):
Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Shawn Weber (07:12):
Yeah. I think a lot of times what happens not to
recap too much of what we didlast time, but I think a lot of
times what happens is the kidsdo much better than the parents
do. And the parents are kind ofworried about their own
emotions, but they're putting iton their kids don't anything
that happens. Yeah, it's like
Mark Hill (07:29):
the house conversation. I can, I can live
in under an underpass. But Imust have the mansion for the
children, you know,
Shawn Weber (07:37):
yeah. And you find out that the kids are going to
be fine. Kids are far moreadaptable than parents are. Not
that you shouldn't think aboutwhat they do. But sometimes
people put too much weight on,all the children are going to
really suffer.
Mark Hill (07:55):
Well, that's one of the benefits of the
collaborative process is thechildren actually do have a
voice and a separateconversation with a child
specialist who can, you know,basically give a voice to the
kids because we do know thatchildren tend to tell the
parents what they think theywant to hear. And for
Shawn Weber (08:11):
those that are out there that don't know what the
collaborative process is, that'swhen you have similar to what's
going on with our podcast, youhave an attorney to attorneys
that sign an agreement that saysthey're never going to go to
court. So there's always anincentive to stay in the
process. And then you bring in afinancial specialists like Mark
here, or you might bring in acoach, mental health
professional like Pete, and youwould bring in coaches for each
(08:36):
of the parties and you bring achild specialist and having a
voice for those kids that we'veseen that that can be really
huge.
Mark Hill (08:44):
So talking about the new year, I believe there may be
a few people on this call thatare thinking my New Year's
resolution is to finally goforward with the divorce. So
what what should we be thinkingabout if that's on our agenda?
Shawn Weber (09:02):
Number one, call now to your to your
professionals get a processstarted now, in my opinion,
because if you wait until thenew year, you're going to be in
with the crush of all the otherpeople that are thinking the
same way that you do. We call itdivorce season in the industry
for a reason. January, February,is kind of a divorce season
(09:22):
where we get a real rush ofcases. And that's because people
wait until the new year to fileand it just seems to be like a
lot of people that want to fileright,
Peter Roussos (09:31):
Shawn? And I think this is something that
we've also touched on before butI think it would be good for you
to I'm going to ask you toexplain what you regard as the
ideal if you will way for aperson who is is decided to file
for divorce to connect with afamily law attorney you as a
(09:56):
mediator. How do you like to seethose initial inquiries made,
what do you think is, is?
Shawn Weber (10:03):
Well as a mediator, I like it when both parties call
together. Or they can call myoffice and they can have a meet
and greet. And I'll get on azoom with two parties. You know,
it's important for if you'reable to do this, and I
understand that there's somemarriages where this isn't
possible. Okay. So I don't wantto be insensitive to that. But
(10:23):
for for a lot of people, if youcan, you know, Mark, you and I
have always said, the decisionof how you divorce is almost as
important as the decision todivorce. Yes. And so kind of
talking that over with yourspouse, what are the options to
get divorce, and you might evenconsider going to a website,
CPCAL.org, I think he actuallygot a CPcal.com. To and find a
(10:49):
Divorce Options workshop. Andthey're all online now. Because
with with COVID, they've justkind of been doing them all
online, you can do it by zoom,there's some there in person,
but you can meet with anattorney, a financial
specialist, and a mental healthprofessional, and learn about
all of the options for divorce.
You know, from the traditionallitigation model to mediation,
(11:11):
where you have a neutral,working with both parties to
collaborative practice, like wedescribed before, and other
methodologies so that you cantake control and be in charge of
your own divorce. So that's thefirst thing I love it when they
have information. Yeah, workshoplike that is huge.
Mark Hill (11:30):
I agree. Because what tends to happen is, people don't
know what to do. And so theyboth know, the marriage is not
going well. They're havingchallenges in the relationship,
and something will happen. Thatwill scare one of the parties
and they'll go, I need a strongattorney to fight for my rights.
(11:54):
And they go and they hiresomebody who perhaps has a
billboard with knuckle dusterson there they see on the freeway
as they drive by. If they dothat, what kind of attorney do
you think their spouse is goingto hire someone to match that
not a milk toast, not somebodywho's going to just roll over.
So now you're on what I termedthe divorce escalator. And that
(12:17):
goes downwards, folks notupwards. And once you get on it,
it's very hard to get off. Sotalking about the process and
how you want to do this,hopefully, with your spouse, or
at least gathering theinformation, as shown was
suggesting by attending adivorce options workshop is a
really important step.
Shawn Weber (12:35):
But yeah, if you can come in together, that's
better, you know. And then evenif you haven't gone to divorce
options workshop, if you call myoffice, I'll give you that
information.
For example,
Mark Hill (12:44):
I do the same by the way, too. I have calls with both
clients, I engineer those andthat's complimentary. So
Shawn Weber (12:53):
and don't go in thinking that you're going to
get all of your questionsanswered for your case, what you
want to focus on in the firstcall is process. How are we
going to do this not? Am I goingto get to keep the house and
where are the kids going tolive? That will come with the
first thing to do is set thetone with a process that you
choose take control of thatprocess at the beginning,
(13:16):
because when you wait, and youjust call the first billboard
that you see attorney, they'regoing to put you in their
process, which is how they dothings. And there's a lot of
litigators in town, that's allthey do is litigation. And we
kind of joke that if all youhave is a hammer is one of your
tools, and the only thing you'regoing to see around town are
nails. And so the same thingwith the litigator, all they're
(13:38):
going to see and I used to workfor a litigation firm, it's just
standard operating procedure,you file a petition, you go to
court, you send a nasty gram tothe other side and you get
going. And maybe that's not whatyou want. Maybe you wanted to be
more respectful thing. The otherthing paid, maybe this is
something you can comment on isthat conversation you have with
the spouse about process. I'vealways told people, you know,
(14:02):
talk to your spouse and say, youknow, we're getting divorced,
things are hard. They're notbutterflies and rainbows. But we
want I want to honor what wasgood about our relationship, and
I want to put our kids first.
Can we do this in a respectfulway and find a process that will
keep us out of court and keepthis morbid, mutual, respectful
process, but how do you coachpeople to do that?
Peter Roussos (14:23):
Well, I think very much along those lines. And
it's, you know, certainly notunusual, where I have couples
coming in in their firstmeetings with me or because
they've decided to make thedecision to divorce and they
want to explore Okay, what doesthis mean? So I talked with them
about process options, and Ithink what you're talking about
(14:45):
is just this vitally important.
And the way we've defined thisand talked about in a previous
podcast, is the idea of thecouples coming together and
defining the mission statement.
How do they want to go throughthis process? What are the the
objectives that they have thegoals that they have, what do
they want to get out of it, Ilike to talk to two couples who
(15:06):
have made that decision in termsof this is an opportunity to
really redefine, and CO create avery different kind of post
divorce co parentingrelationship, if they have
children, you know that this isan opportunity to really take a
sense of stewardship about howthey want to get through this
process and kind of they cometogether in a collaborative way.
(15:27):
So there's a boundary questionthat I'm curious about for you
both. If if, if an individual ifyour first contact is with an
individual, does that precludeyou from working as a mediator?
With both parties?
Mark Hill (15:49):
My response is, it depends. How was I approached in
the first case, and have Italked specifics of the case, if
I've just talked process withone side, I'm fine with having
the same conversation with theother side. If someone hired me
and said, Oh, I'm getting adivorce. And I just need someone
(16:13):
to look over my shoulder, makesure I don't do anything stupid
from financial standpoint. AndI've looked at the case, and
I've told the person the thingsthey need to be conscious about
as they go through it. And thenthey would come back and say,
Well, I think we're going to useyou as a mediator. It's like,
yeah, that's where I would havesome difficulty, because I've
already sort of, you know,caucus with one side and try to
(16:36):
assist them. But if I've had aconversation with one I've done
nothing but talk process, mynormal, modus operandi is to
literally say, now I need tohave the same conversation with
your wife or with your husband,please, could we set that up,
because we've not talked about,you know, the specifics.
Shawn Weber (16:55):
But my approach is quite similar. I tell people,
okay, I want this needs to be anon substantive process. And we
discussion, we're going to talkabout how you're going to get
divorced. Before we talk aboutthe specifics of your case.
Because the moment I put on ahat and start dispensing legal
advice, I'm forever aligned withyou, I cannot undo that I can't
(17:17):
unring that bell. And so if youwant to use me as a mediator,
which you would be wise toconsider. Because that's really
where my best skill set is, isthe mediation, then let's, let's
limit our conversation toprocess only, you know, where it
gets a little kind of difficult.
Sometimes there's a lot of timeswhen it's only one person
calling, and I can't get themscheduled together, it's because
(17:39):
there's such a communicationbreakdown, right? Or maybe the
other person just can't believethat divorce is really
happening. And any speaking to adivorce professional means that
we're going to make this happen,I've had that happen, we get
that all the time wheresomeone's in denial that there's
really a divorce happening. Andso then sometimes I will, I will
(18:02):
give some suggestions on how totalk to the other person, but
then I might refer them tosomeone like yourself, B, to
really get some coaching, sothat they can figure out how to
enroll the other spouse in aprocess without having to turn
into a court situation. I willtell people, you know, you kind
of talk to the other person,like you do your child in a
(18:23):
respectful way. But I remember,you know, I have five kids. And
when we when they were little,sometimes we'd have this
conversation, you can put on thered shoe or the blue shoe. You
know, give them that choice, butthey're going to wear shoes. And
so it's not very different fromthis, we can do this the nice
friendly mediation orcollaborative way. But if you
(18:44):
refuse to come to the table, I'mgoing to have to hire an
attorney who will just move thisforward in the legal process.
And not that it's a threat. It'sjust letting you know, this is
the reality this is movingforward. And so that happens
too. I'm also aware of thosesituations where you have
coercive control, perhaps frommaybe maybe a person's calling
(19:07):
me and they're afraid to talk tothe other person. And so then
I'll do a little bit of anassessment. And I'll ask some
more deep questions withoutfeeling like I violated
neutrality is to find out what'sgoing on from this person's
perspective. Has there beenviolence, as there have been
stalking behaviors? Does thisperson feel safe, that kind of
thing? So that I can basicallyget them with an attorney?
(19:31):
Because I'm a mediator, I'mgoing to try to stay a mediator
unless they really want me astheir attorney. And by the way,
I'll represent them in acollaborative process, but I
don't go to court. Right. But Iwill get them with an attorney
who could look out for their,you know, safety concerns, like
if there's a domestic violenceconcern, I want to make sure
that gets addressed and they getto the resources that they need
(19:53):
to be safe, but I won't givethat advice. I'll just say no,
you need to talk to them.
Attorney X here who can reallymake sure you need to talk to
them about your safety concerns.
And by the way, you can stillmediate a case where there's
things like that going on. Youjust have to be very careful.
And it's advanced work, but it'sstuff that I do. And a lot of
(20:15):
good mediators have the trainingto do. The answer your question,
Pete? That was a lot of stuff.
Peter Roussos (20:24):
Yeah. And you actually, you also responded to
it part of your answer, answeris something I was curious
about, which is, like, Do youhave a preference? Would you
rather put it that way? I workas the mediator or, you know, be
the consulting attorney. And itsounds like you would rather be
the mediator?
Shawn Weber (20:44):
Me personally.
Yeah, no, I would personallyprefer to be a mediator, because
I just get rid of a charge outof helping people resolve a
difference. I find that I don'tmind representing people. But
what's interesting is actually,I actually changed my fee
structure, I'm $25 more per hourif you want me to represent you.
Because I'm more willing to givemore of myself for less money.
(21:09):
If it's mediation, then if I'm,I'm representing someone,
because that takes more of atoll on me. So then I'm going to
charge $25 More an hour.
Peter Roussos (21:21):
And just, I guess, to reiterate, I want to
make sure that I saying this inthe way that you you, you see
it. And the way you frame it,Shawn is that when possible, the
best way to start a mediationprocess or to explore that is
where both partners meet withthe mediator together, that's
(21:42):
what you'd like to see happen.
Shawn Weber (21:44):
100% that is always better. And I encourage that if
they, if they can't do ittogether, then I'll schedule two
meetings. And it'll be a nonsubstantive meal. It's similar
what Mark was talking about anon substantive meeting with
each of where we talk aboutprocess, and we get there and I
give them the same information.
And I, you know, when it's whenit's a challenging case,
particularly high conflict, orthere's coercive control issues,
(22:09):
I'll set up what we call premarital or pre op, sorry, pre
mediation, counseling, orcoaching is different mediators
call it different things. Butthe idea is you have caucus
sessions that are paid for witheach of the parties prior to the
mediation actually commencing.
(22:30):
But it's understood that you'respending an hour with each of
the parties and talking to themabout their perspective on the
case. And then that's okay,because both Newbold know, I'm
doing this from a neutralperspective, and I'm giving each
of them the same amount of time.
That can be a useful thing todo. Like, if you've got a case
where it's really, really good.
I had a case years ago, wherethe wife was just absolutely
(22:52):
terrified of the husband, and hereally was kind of a turkey, he
really did exert somemanipulative behaviors, and that
those those pre mediationmeetings, were really crucial to
be able to help kind of setboundaries and have some clarity
about what's really going on. Sothat I could then help the
parties then reach a resolutionbecause even though the husband
(23:15):
was kind of a turkey, I neededto be neutral to him. And help
them both reach an agreement.
And by the way, you can, like Isaid, you can do domestic
violence cases, you might ifthere's a restraining order, you
might have to modify therestraining order to allow for
mediation to happen. But youknow, it might, you know, if we
(23:36):
do it by zoom, there's nocontact at all, they don't even
have to see each other. And ifthey do it at my office, I've
got different conference rooms,and we have precautions for how
we can make sure that it's safe.
Yeah, the interesting stuff. Butyeah, I mean, if people were
(23:56):
thinking about this, end of theyear thing, and thinking that
this is their, their kind oftheir decision point, I get it.
I mean, this is a, I do it everyyear with, you know, taking
stock of how my year went andwhere I'm going, and my next
year, I come up with a word formyself every year for oh, I'm
going to live my life and run mybusiness and I can totally see
(24:18):
where somebody's like, you know,I need to make this change. I
need to do it soon. And so, youknow, I, my best advice would be
Communicate, communicate,communicate, and maybe you don't
tell the kids immediately butyou probably ought to start
talking to professionals aboutprocess soon, so that you can
plan for it. So that when you'reready to pull the trigger on
(24:40):
this thing, sorry, it's anunfortunate metaphor, but when
you're ready to get started onthis thing, you can you're ready
to go and you've got the thetools you know, available to you
to do what you need to do. Andas I always tell my clients stay
in charge
Mark Hill (24:59):
because once thing that does tend to happen if you
go the litigation route is thatyour attorney will have you fill
out the papers to file thedivorce. And then those papers
need to be served on the otherspouse. And it's not done as I
know from better personalexperience of sitting in my nice
(25:20):
office in La Jolla and having abiker walk in to reception and
drop a paper in front of otherdivers, a financial adviser,
then a nice firm, and saw thepapers dropped by this biker on
a table. And as I walked up tohim said, You've been sued buddy
and turned around and left infront of other clients, it did
(25:42):
not set a good tone for thedivorce was basically like being
slapped in the face. So beaware, if you do go with the
litigation route, have aconversation about how to serve
and not embarrass your spouse atthat workplace or somewhere, you
know, where they feel that thereare social pressures, frankly,
Shawn Weber (26:02):
oh, and this is very important. There's no such
thing anymore as a secretlyfiled petition. So we've had
people in the past as well, I'mgoing to file a petition, but
I'm not going to serve the otherperson yet. until I'm ready to
talk to them about it. That is amistake. Because you there are
these unethical people that willtroll the court website and are
(26:23):
looking for filings and theywill reach out to your spouse to
solicit business from them. Sothey can provide legal services
to even you may not realizethis, but you've been sued, and
I'm here to represent you andbad things can happen to you.
And and if the first time you'rehearing about the divorce is
from some third party, unethicalsalesperson, that's, that's not
(26:48):
good. So don't think that filingdon't file unless you want the
other person to see it. And thenI would recommend that the
service happen quickly. But takecharge of your service, you
don't have to use Guido, likeMark was describing to show up
at Town person's office, we cando this in a friendly way. That
(27:12):
mediations, we just have themsign a piece of paper that says
okay, I got it, and then theydon't have to send a processor.
Peter Roussos (27:17):
You know, I'm I'm wondering to those folks
listening who have made thedecision that they want to get
divorced, if it would be I'mthinking it would be useful if
you could talk a bit about whatthey should expect visa vie
time. This is a generalizationbut I imagine that it almost
(27:40):
always takes longer than thenparticularly the motivated.
client wants it to. But justwhat's the end? I guess the
other complexity is if if afterthe first of the year, that's a
busier time in your practice,Shawn, because people starting a
process. How do you talk topeople? Again, something we've
(28:03):
touched on before but in thiscontext of you've made the
decision to do it? How do youlet them know what they should
expect visa vie time.
Shawn Weber (28:12):
First of all, realize that divorce
professionals have never been asbusy as they are right now. Post
COVID It's been apocalyptic formarriages, I think I'm going to
be really interested in seeingwhat the research will show
about statistics. But everyoneI've talked to has said that the
(28:33):
divorces have just been throughthe roof. And more difficult and
more difficult because peopleare just more the anxiety is
higher, the anger levels arehigher. It's just a crazy weird
between the political climateand the COVID situation. It's
just very difficult. So justknow your attorney is going to
be crazy busy and will not be asresponsive to you as that person
(28:56):
would like to be. Okay. And I,my poor clients, I'm trying but
but we're all just swamped.
Yeah. The other thing is berealistic about how long these
things take. It's not likeyou're going to walk into your
attorney's office or new mediayears of mediators office and
the following week, you're goingto be divorced. It's a process.
(29:16):
And it takes some time, onaverage six to eight months for
a mediated divorce is myexperience. If it's complex,
like there's financialcomplexities or emotional
complexities, it'll take a yearor two times longer. Mark, we
have cases that God five yearsYeah. You know, so everybody's
different. So just kind of berealistic about what it's going
(29:41):
to take to unwind this.
Mark Hill (29:44):
And I would say also don't want it to be over fast,
in a way because this is thelargest financial transaction of
most people's lifetimes. Youwant to get it right. Just
getting it done. I understandit. Why Get it done. I want this
behind me, I want to moveforward with my life. I get all
that, however, you don't want tolook at it three years down the
(30:09):
road and go, Oh, that was reallystupid. I shouldn't have made
that financial decision. Ididn't understand it, I was
rushing to get it done. So you,you know you? Yes, you want to
get it done in a timely fashion.
But you want to get it doneright more important than time
Shawn Weber (30:25):
when How many times have you left the car dealership
realized something that youshould have thought about in the
car dealership, now have a caror I just had a window guy come
to our house. And Carrie and Iare like, Oh, we should talk
about that we should borrow thissign because they pressure you
know, like, oh, you lose money.
If you don't sign this second.
(30:50):
You want your windows done,right? But you need to be kind
of realistic about this is goingto be more work than you've
probably done on any project inyour life. And that includes
your professional work. That'sfor most people. That's the
report I get. Yep. And this islike successful CEOs that have
built large companies. And andand they will tell you, this is
(31:13):
the hardest work they've everengaged in. So be realistic
about that it's going to takework. I always tell my clients,
I'll meet you halfway, I willnever work harder than my
client. Good professional willtell you that if they try to do
everything for you, it'sprobably a bad process. And just
it takes time. And a lot oftimes there's also that issue.
(31:34):
And we've talked about before onthis podcast, where someone's
ready to go. And someone's notthere yet. Yep. And what we've
learned is is slower is faster.
So and the other thing is, youknow, if you go to court, you
know, as opposed to a mediatedprocess, I absolutely promise
and guarantee you it'll takefour times as long. Because the
(31:56):
courts are even more overwhelmedthan we are. And they have just
a simple motion heard can takesix months to a year. Yeah.
Where whereas we can do thingsfaster. So just kind of if
you've never experienced thisbefore, most people have not
been through divorce. Or maybeyou've been through one divorce,
(32:19):
or two, you know, we have ourrepeat offenders. Serial
monogamists. But most peoplethis is they've not experienced
this before. And so you don'tknow that this pace, it feels
very glacial is actually at warpspeed.
Mark Hill (32:43):
People come in talking to me about I can't tell
you how many people have walkedin and said, well, our case is
pretty simple. We've gotpensions, I have some stock
options, and she did get ininheritance. But we kind of
talked about it. It's all prettystraightforward. Read
Shawn Weber (33:00):
everything already.
Yeah.
Mark Hill (33:03):
That's often the most difficult case is because there
are presumptions that peoplehave made before they had all
the information necessary tomake an informed, truly informed
decision. And
Shawn Weber (33:16):
you mean you want your inheritance to remain
separate property? I didn'trealize that's what we were
talking about. You know, thathappens, right? Yeah. Well, when
they actually see what thesupport numbers are, whether
it's the payer or the payee,they're both going to be unhappy
with that number, because it'salways more than the pay pay
order wants to pay and less thanthe payee wants to receive. And
they're both right. Becausethere's just not enough money to
(33:38):
go around. Yep. And so you know,giving yourself a little bit of
patience and a little bit offlexibility and understanding
compassion for yourself. This isgoing to take some time and that
you're going to need to adjustto it is a really good approach.
Peter Roussos (33:57):
This disguise this has been for me a really
interesting conversation. I'mglad we're having those. I need
to say to the two of you, I'mdisappointed that neither one of
you suggested giving Given thetiming of the year that you know
we should have been doing thiswith eggnog
Mark Hill (34:16):
so well, one more before Christmas we have
scheduled to record we can allcome with with our beverage of
choice at that point.
Peter Roussos (34:27):
And your sweaters are way too tasteful.
Shawn Weber (34:35):
Well, I always thought that that song Auld Lang
zine was very appropriate forNew Years in divorce. And old
acquaintance be forgot. Somepeople aim for Can I just
forget? But well So
Peter Roussos (34:52):
Shawn. So if if somebody has made the decision
to to get divorced, how do theyGet in touch with
Shawn Weber (35:00):
you. Well, the best thing to do would be to go to my
website firstWeberdisputeresolution.com
That's Weber with one be likethe grill dispute, like we had a
fight resolution like we solvedit.com. And we will, you know,
if you have any kind of dispute,we will match you with a
(35:20):
mediator who will help youresolve your dispute, and we can
talk about these things. And ifyou're doing a divorce, if you
can pull it off, let's get bothof you to talk to me or, and we
can, we can figure out a processthat will work for you.
Peter Roussos (35:36):
And Mark, if people have financial questions
about divorce or other financialquestions, what's the best way
to get a hold of you?
Mark Hill (35:43):
My website, Pacdivorce.com PAC di vo rce.com
lays out exactly how we dothings how we approach things
like shown we don't go to courtanymore. But we can help you
resolve your issue if you wantto work in a mediated
(36:04):
environment. And we can alsohelp on one side if you just
want some information to know ifthe you're in the process and
know if what you're deciding todo make sense financially so we
can help on all those levels.
Peter Roussos (36:17):
Peter? Yeah, I you know, and I think that
here's the pitch that I'd liketo make today that I'm hoping
that that people are listeningto this, who are thinking about
divorce, but they're open to thepossibility of doing marital
therapy to see whether or notthere's a way to save their
marriage. Because I think ofthat is is my primary specialty
(36:40):
working with couples that arereally struggling. concerned
that there isn't a way forwardfor them. Those are the couples
that I really enjoy workingwith. And so if you're
interested in that kind of aservice, my website is Peter
Russos.com, p e t e r r o u s s,o s.com. I'm also available to
(37:03):
help families that are goingthrough divorce processes in the
way of coaching and support arethe kinds of processes that
Shawn and Mark offer.
Shawn Weber (37:13):
And we love working with you, Pete, you always make
the case more smooth.
Peter Roussos (37:17):
Well, I love and enjoy working with the two of
you and have such respect foryou know, I can't tell you how
many times I find myselflistening to the two of you, and
just being really impressed andappreciative of of how sharp you
are, how compassionate you are,and how much I think you just
(37:39):
really understand and know howto work with relational
dynamics. So it certainly makesworking with you guys very
smooth. And quite honestly,you're also really delightful.
And it makes the process fun.
Shawn Weber (37:52):
So, you know, Pete, if ever I suffer from
depression, I'm just going tohang out with you. And have you
say things like that?
Peter Roussos (38:02):
Any time and
Shawn Weber (38:07):
it's a mutual feeling, isn't it? Yes, indeed.
Peter Roussos (38:10):
Thank you guys.
It really is a pleasure doingthis with you.
Shawn Weber (38:14):
All right, and to those out there in podcast land
that are listening to us.
Please, like us say nice thingsabout us online. If you know
somebody that needs to hear whatwe have to say please share our
podcast with them. We'reavailable anywhere where you can
download a podcast. I thinkwe're pretty much universal now.
So love that we have listenersout there, those of you that are
regular listeners, we reallylove you and those of you that
(38:36):
would share with others what wedo we I think we have an
important message to share. Sonow at the end of the year, we
wish you a very Happy Holidaysand very prosperous new year.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of the three wise men of
divorce, money, Psych, and law.
(38:58):
If you liked what you heard, besure to subscribe. Leave us a
review and share with others whomay be in a similar place. Until
next time, stay safe, healthyand focused on a positive bright
future. This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
Every family law case is unique.
So no legal, financial or mentalhealth advice is intended during
(39:21):
this podcast. If you need helpwith your specific situation,
feel free to schedule a time tospeak with one of us for a
personal consultation.
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