February 26, 2024 • 44 mins
Discover the transformative power of mental health support in the realm of divorce with the Three Wisemen of Divorce. This episode delves into the emotional complexities of separation and the pivotal role therapists play in steering individuals towards a collaborative divorce. We unpack the stark contrasts between marital therapy, coaching and mediation support, shining a light on how emotional intelligence and self-management can dramatically alter the course of a divorce for the better. This journey isn't just about the end of a partnership; it's an invitation to understand the importance of professional guidance in fostering healthy communication and mutual respect during what can be one of life's most challenging transitions.
Navigating the stormy seas of divorce can leave many adrift, but with the help of mental health professionals, couples can find their way to calmer waters. The Three Wisemen of Divorce offer insights on how incorporating therapists into the divorce process can lead to healthier, more strategic outcomes, particularly when children and co-parenting arrangements are involved. We explore the signs that indicate a need for professional help and discuss the concept of 'the good divorce', aiming to transform the post-divorce family dynamic into one focused on the collective well-being. This conversation is a beacon of hope, illustrating that even amidst the heartache of separation, there's an opportunity to emerge stronger and more connected as co-parents.
Concluding our episode, we confront the nuanced art of co-parenting and the strategic navigation of divorce mediation. The invaluable perspective of a mental health professional is not to be underestimated, even in the most amicable of separations. The Three Wisemen of Divorce share practical advice on personal growth, self-sufficiency, and the development of new communication skills that are essential in post-divorce life. By embracing these strategies, individuals are empowered to manage their new dynamics with poise and collaboration, always with the best interests of their children at heart. Join us for this profound exploration, and let us guide you toward a future of resilience and cooperation in the face of change.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (00:00):
And I just love that, that imagery that you
gave us there of dancingjoyfully.
I always say you want to danceat your daughter's wedding, but
the dancing joyfully part thatnow I'm sure that may feel a
reach for some people.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (00:14):
Yeah , absolutely, absolutely.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (00:16):
Absolutely I'll dance, but I'm keeping
arms length you know I'm notdancing with him.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (00:21):
I had that in a meeting the other day.
The person's like I'm not goingto dance with him.
I'll dance, but I'm not goingto dance with him.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (00:25):
Would you be willing to do a line
dance?
Can we agree?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (00:28):
on that.
Yes, yes, welcome to the ThreeWisemen of Divorce Money, psych
and Law podcast.
Sit down with the Californiadivorce experts financial
divorce consultant Mark Hill,marriage and family therapist
Pete Russo's and attorney SeanWeber for a frank and casual
(00:52):
conversation about divorce,separation, co-parenting and the
difficult decisions real peoplelike you face during these
tough times.
We know that if you are lookingat divorce or separation, it
can be scary and overwhelming.
With combined experience ofover 60 years of divorce and
conflict management, we are herefor you and look forward to
(01:12):
helping by sharing our uniqueideas, thoughts and perspectives
on divorce, separation andco-parenting.
Well, we are almost done withour three-part series.
We've done why it's importantand how it's important and
useful to have an attorneyinvolved in your mediation.
(01:33):
We talked about the usefulnessof a financial specialist as
part of your divorce mediationand this week, for this podcast,
we want to talk about the roleof a mental health professional
in a mediation and before westarted recording, you and I,
pete, were talking about thedifferent angles and different
(01:56):
roles that a mental healthprofessional can play in a
divorce mediation, but therewould seem to be a unifying
theme.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (02:10):
Yeah , I think that the 30,000-foot
view, if you will, is.
I think that my role is reallyabout helping people manage
themselves through the difficultand challenging emotions that
come up as part of the divorceprocess, as part of trying to
transition into a morecollaborative co-parenting,
(02:34):
dealing with the grief that Ithink is inevitable.
Even when someone views adivorce as being the really
healthy decision, the rightdecision for them, I think
there's almost always a griefprocess that's involved, and so
how do they work through thoseemotions and then the very
practical aspects of it.
(02:55):
When I'm assisting in amediation, often my role is to
help people manage theirreactive moments better so that
they can communicate moreeffectively, be engaged more
effectively in a settlementdiscussion that might at times
be challenging and difficult.
(03:16):
So, again, I think the broadthing that ties these different
ways that I can be involvedtogether is how do I help people
learn how to manage thethoughts and feelings that come
up for them, that are painful,that are challenging, as they're
going through the ending of amarriage and the conditioning of
(03:39):
a family?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (03:40):
And, of course, we've also seen that
inverse relationship, theinverse proportion relationship,
between the people thatactually need a coach and the
ones that are willing to hire acoach or a mental health
professional.
It tends to be that when you'relike I don't need a mental
health professional, there's theones that I worry about the
most.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (04:00):
And also there's the resistance that you
get from people oh no, I don'tneed another mental health
professional.
We spent years in therapy.
It was a waste of time andmoney.
Look where we ended up.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (04:12):
It failed.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (04:13):
Exactly.
So it's important to explainthe difference of the roles as a
marital therapist and asassisting in the mediation.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (04:24):
Yeah , well, I would say the goals
and the objectives aredefinitely different.
What's interesting for me,though, is the way that I work
with people in therapy versusthe way that I work with people
that I'm assisting in eithermediation or working as a coach
and collaborative process isabsolutely the same.
(04:45):
My core focus is onself-management and what it is
that the people need to do tomanage themselves in more
appropriate, respectful andeffective ways when they are
feeling uncomfortable, whenthey're triggered, when they're
dealing with tough issues, andso the but, but, having said
that, the goals and theobjectives it is about getting
(05:09):
through a divorce process in thehealthiest way possible.
It's about being morecollaborative co-parents, and so
those are way more specific.
It's about disentangling asromantic partners, not trying to
transform and heal a romanticrelationship.
So the focus is very, very,very different, but I think the
(05:30):
dynamics and this is part of thework, the things that made the
marriage difficult are going toplay out in a mediation and a
collaborative process.
In fact, one of the things thatactually drew me to
collaborative work and let mefigure this out I started doing,
I got trained in thecollaborative model in 1996.
(05:53):
And I had been done one of myinternships at Family Court
Services in Santa Clara County.
That was my first exposure todivorce work.
That's how I met practitionersin the collaborative divorce
model, and one of the thingsthat really drew me to the model
was hearing Nancy Ross talkabout how she had been working
(06:18):
cases, and it wasn't unusual forher to hear clients in a
collaborative divorce say thatthey wished that they had
connected with Nancy sooner, andwhat they recognized was they
were able to make these healthychanges as part of their
(06:38):
coaching process.
In a collaborative divorceprocess, they were actually able
to transform their dynamic witheach other and it became much
healthier.
And it was this bittersweetmoment where they found
themselves thinking, oh what ifwe had been able to do this work
sooner?
Who knows, maybe?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (06:59):
the.
I was going to say there's alot there that we need to unpack
for our listeners who may notbe familiar with collaborative
practice or collaborativedivorce and Nancy Ross.
But collaborative practice isthe movement that came out right
about when you started in thatpractice in the mid-90s, where
and we've had Stu Webb who wasthe father of collaborative
(07:20):
divorce on our podcast, andwe've had Nancy Ross, who I
would say she's the mother ofthe coaching in collaborative
practice Absolutely the ideathat you would have various
professionals from variousfields collaborate on a case
together attorneys, mentalhealth professionals, financial
(07:42):
professionals and all of themsign an agreement that says that
they're never going to go tocourt.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, C (07:48):
And I think, sean, to the question
that really this podcast isfocused on.
So what does a mental healthprofessional bring to the
process?
The movement to collaborativepractice, I think, was driven by
this recognition, yeah, that ina divorce there are the legal
elements, there are financialelements and there are
psychological, emotionalelements and you have to work in
(08:09):
all three.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (08:09):
Which is a lot of what this podcast means
right.
Absolutely, it requires adivorce, but we come from our
three fields.
We believe strongly that youcan't settle a case until you
resolve the financial, theemotional and the legal needs of
both of the clients, and sothat I think, bringing in a
mental health professional fromthe collaborative model I think
(08:30):
we've learned so much aboutworking with mental health
professionals from thecollaborative movement that it
has really made mediation better.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (08:40):
Well , I want to revisit a question
that we have talked about, Ithink, in the context of the
financial specialist discussion,but the way that I think about
it is that the one professionalthat is needed, if you will, in
order for a couple to getdivorced is the attorney.
The attorneys are needed, ifyou will, and even that is cast
(09:04):
in concrete, but the financialspecialist and the mental health
professionals are not needed inorder to get divorced.
I would argue that theycertainly facilitate having a
healthy divorce process, ahealthier divorce process.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (09:23):
And, I would say, better outcomes, from
my standpoint certainly.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (09:29):
I might rephrase the way you said that,
please, who's needed versuswho's not needed.
I think all of them are needed,but one.
You can get divorced unless youhave a legal process, which is
why the attorneys kind of seemmore essential.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, C (09:44):
But so let me ask you both, because
we and this is part of thequestion that we were talking
about, the financial specialist.
I think I asked you, sean.
So how do you determine thatyou, that a case really would
benefit from having a financialspecialist?
So let's, let's alter thatquestion how do the two of you
determine that a case reallywould benefit by having a mental
(10:07):
health professional involved?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (10:10):
I think the number one thing is when I'm
meeting with people for thefirst time and I'm seeing that
there is a struggle inself-awareness, being able to be
aware number one of what theother person is saying or coming
from and also, are you aware ofhow you are coming across?
(10:33):
Are you aware of your ownemotions?
And I think so many people it'salmost an emotional
intelligence argument so manypeople when they get into the
divorce they get stuck with thatfight or flight.
They're very intelligent,normally very emotionally
intelligent people lose controlof that emotional response.
(10:56):
When I see that happening, thenI think a coach can be very
useful.
The other thing is, if there'sfear from one party towards the
other, I find that having amental health professional
involved can really help,because what you're really
managing is the fight or flightresponse and you're also
(11:19):
managing the person that isfeared does things probably
where that person does notrealize that they are eliciting
fear from the other person.
Having a mental healthprofessional and say hey, you
know the way you say this from astrategy standpoint is less
effective.
If you could say it this waywould resonate better with your
(11:39):
soon to be a spouse and thenmight actually get you to better
outcomes.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (11:44):
One of the red flags that I get is when
people want to tell me why themoney needs to go in a certain
way, because of somethinghappened in the marriage In
other words because she did this.
I need this to happenfinancially.
That is generally somethingthat I mean.
(12:06):
You always say, sean, we cantalk about the who, what and the
when, but please let's stayaway from the why, because
that's when we get into thedifficulties of really
relitigating what happened inthe marriage.
And, as I say to clients,wouldn't it be unreasonable to
think that the divorce would beany easier than the marriage was
?
And that usually gets them togo.
(12:28):
Oh yeah, I guess.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (12:30):
Mark , what you're saying, I think,
is the really importantdistinction to make to those
people who have said we were inmarriage therapy multiple times.
It didn't help us.
We don't need coaching becauseit's not going to help us to be
able to make it very, very clearthat it's not about going back
and rehashing but sometimes itdoes involve a certain amount of
(12:54):
grief, work just to get themthrough the process and help
them the individuals, in theirown adjustments but that it is
very, very focused on the goalsand objectives of getting
through the divorce process inthe healthiest and most
respective way possible to havea better outcome.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (13:12):
And if there are children involved,
it's even more important becausethere's the requirement for a
relationship or an interactionto occur.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (13:22):
Well, that's a very good, but you brought up
what are the things that wouldmake me one to bring in a mental
health professional.
If I'm seeing alienation orestrangement happening with the
kids, it's hard for me to knowwhat is really going on with the
family.
And having a mental healthprofessional, either as a
(13:44):
neutral child specialist or twomental health professionals
working with each party, ithelps me understand the family
system a little better as adispute resolution person, and
then I can then figure out thenhow to align that emotional,
legal and financial needs butthen also do it in a way that
(14:05):
makes them more effective asco-parents and protects the
children.
I was watching the crown lastnight.
I'm sure Mark is thrilled thatI watched the crown, but there
was a scene where Diana andCharles the people playing them
(14:25):
Charles said we didn't do a verygood job as spouses, but maybe
we could do a better job withall of this, and he points to
his two sons, maybe we could bebetter partners, and I thought
that's actually a good point.
I know this is a dramatizationand the conversation may not
have even occurred, and whocares anyway?
(14:46):
Because it's the royal familywho cares about them.
But understanding that thismessage that we failed is, if
you want to use that word, evenfail in our marriage.
Our marriage did not go well.
Things were not butterflies andrainbows.
That's why we're here.
But can we improve the way thatwe communicate and work
(15:10):
together so that we could beeffective partners in rearing
our children?
I think of Connie AronsConstance Arons, who wrote the
book the Good Divorce and was amental health professional here
in San Diego that I've done alot of good work with before she
passed away and all of us did.
(15:30):
She talks about in her book thedifferent types of parenting,
co-parenting styles.
And there's the bitter enemies,those people.
But then the ones that reallywork out well where it's a good
divorce, those are the ones thatare the power partnership.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (15:50):
Well , the other thing that I heard
that drew me to the model andthis was in the training that I
did in the collaborative doorsmodel was that the goal, if you
will, where what they wantedpeople to envision was that a
couple could get divorced andthen they could, at some point
(16:12):
in the future, dance joyfullytogether at the wedding of their
child?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (16:16):
Dance joyfully together.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, C (16:18):
Yes , yeah, you imagine.
And what a gift to be able togive a child, for parents to
pull themselves together and tobe able to do that.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (16:33):
And actually feel good about it, not just
like I'm going to put on astrong face.
I'm going to be good for thekids, but, like you know, I
actually want to have apartnership with this, my
co-creator.
You know, when you're a parent,you're a co-creator.
I always say it's as close tobeing near God as possible
(16:54):
because you are creating life,and to be a co-creator with this
person and these people thatneed you.
Having that ability to getthere is so huge and I just love
that imagery that you gave usthere of dancing joyfully.
I always say, do you want todance at your daughter's wedding
(17:16):
?
But the dancing joyfully partdad.
Now.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (17:20):
I'm sure that may feel a reach for some
people.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (17:23):
Yeah , absolutely, absolutely.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (17:26):
I'll dance , but I'm keeping arms length
you know I'm not dancing withhim.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (17:30):
I had that in a meeting the other day.
The person's like I'm not goingto dance with him.
I'll dance, but I'm not goingto dance with him.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (17:35):
Would you be willing to do a line
dance?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (17:38):
And we agree on that.
Yes, yes.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST (17:42):
I think it's important that we
hold out these higher objectivesbut also recognize when they
may not be realistic.
And what is it that we can doto minimize the hurt, to reduce
the damage and, hopefully for mein my role, to try to impart
some skill building and sometools that they can build on so
(18:04):
that things can improve over thelonger term between them.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (18:10):
So let's talk about the different ways
that a mental healthprofessional can be utilized on
a case.
I feel like there's so manydifferent angles where a mental
health professional can beinvolved.
One is, maybe you're the couplestherapist and they've decided
in couples therapy that itdivorces what needs to happen,
and then you become the divorcetherapist and that continues and
(18:30):
parties can sign releases toallow the mental health
professional that they'recontinuing to work with to
communicate with the mediator,and I always find it to be very
useful, yeah, and then there'schildren's therapists.
They're providing therapists toa child and I had a case
recently and I've done thisfrequently where there's a
release signed so the eyes ofthe mediator can communicate
(18:52):
with the mental healthprofessional.
And this is before.
I was going to have a meetingwith a 15 year old girl about
her feelings about the divorceand wanted to be able to express
things and I was able to talkto her mental health
professional, her therapist, andwe got on the same page and it
ended up being very usefulmeeting and then I now need to
(19:13):
report back to the therapistwhat happened and get more
feedback.
And the therapist actually tooksome of the therapy time to
prepare the child for themeeting with the mediator?
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (19:23):
Yeah , that was very useful, well,
and I want to give credit to youfor working in that way.
I also want to give credit tothe parents and their
willingness to authorize that tothe 15 year old, to be willing
to engage in that way, and forthe therapist to support that,
(19:43):
because that doesn't alwayshappen?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (19:45):
Yeah, it doesn't always happen.
And I think a lot of timestherapists are out there and
they hear divorce legalproceeding and they're very
worried they're going to besucked in as a witness or that
things that they tell themediator show up in court in a
public way.
And I always reassure themental health professionals that
(20:06):
I work with.
Listen, at least in California,under evidence code 1119,
everything that is discussed inmediation, including the
conversations between atherapist and a mediator, have
some of the strongestconfidentiality in the entire
evidence code.
There's nothing really that canbe done to breach that code
unless, like you know, there wasa reportable event or something
(20:29):
that occurred, you know likesomebody was in danger, a child
is in danger or something likethat.
Well then, that would breachthe confidentiality and that
would be discoverable.
But other than that, anythingthat is said between the
mediator and the therapist isstrictly confidential and I
don't share it with the parties,even you know, and that that's
(20:52):
some reassurance that they'vebeen given to a mental health
professional.
Oh, this is actually a saferenvironment for my clients to be
in and if they were to go tocourt and I've seen people lose
licenses or come close to losinglicenses, over saying the wrong
thing to an attorney in alitigation case or being a
witness when they're really atherapist.
You know they have to becareful about their roles that
(21:12):
way, Absolutely.
And then there's there's alsothen the, the coach, the
collaborative coach model thatworks very well in mediation to
where you're not providingtherapy.
You know what happened to youwhen you're too with your mom.
I joke about but but about whatam I going to do now for the to
prepare for this meeting or toget friends moment in my history
(21:34):
?
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (21:35):
and focusing on the communication
between the couple.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (21:38):
Yeah, I mean that's, that's another role.
And then there's thecollaborative child specialist
role, which is a person thatcould come in and be a child
specialist.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (21:49):
Yeah , and the coaching role can be I
mean, there is absolutely thepart of it about helping people
to understand and manage their,their thoughts and feelings more
effectively but also can bevery nuts and bolts in terms of
skill building how they say whatthey say, the tone that they
use.
Another role that, another waythat I'll work in the process,
(22:11):
is that the mediator or the, theconsulting attorneys they may
refer the couple back to me totalk about the co-parenting
agreement, or there may be evenbe some specific questions that
they have vis-a-vis settlementthat they want to discuss with
me, and I mean that one of theadvantages of that is that that
(22:36):
is a less expensive way to havethose preliminary discussions
and I think that can work reallywell when there's coordination
amongst the professional teammembers.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (22:50):
I think that's key is the coordination
between the professionalsAbsolutely, absolutely and the
clients allowing theprofessionals to do that,
because sometimes people getconcerned about losing control
of their case and turning itover to a professional.
But I think these conversationsthat the professionals can have
(23:10):
behind your back I was joking,we're going to talk about you
behind your back those areactually very helpful so that we
can be very frank with eachother, and then again, that's
all protected by mediationconfidentiality.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (23:23):
Well, also , it saves money, because if one
of us has obtained informationsince the last team meeting,
that revealed in the meetingwould cause all sorts of
consternation which does happenyou find out something happened
around the money that one spousehas revealed that the other
(23:44):
spouse had no knowledge of.
My concern is that it's goingto result in a blow up.
We can talk about how toaddress it and how best, who
best to bring it up and how itshould be discussed, and that is
very powerful.
But if we don't have thosepre-meetings as I like to call
them 15, 30 minutes beforegetting on with everybody,
(24:09):
sometimes I feel I'm going intoa meeting and I get blindsided
because I just don't know thatsomething else occurred in
another sphere of the case.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (24:21):
Yeah .
So I think, mark, what you'rereferencing connects with
something that we've talkedabout before, and that is how
people, how clients, react tothe idea that there's a
professional team involved, andhow important it is that we help
them understand why it'sactually going to save them
money in the long run, becauseit's a more efficient process,
(24:43):
there's a greater level of acoordination of care, which is
absolutely key and for them tounderstand why the process works
the way it does and thatinvolving people in the ways
that we're suggesting is reallythe more cost effective and
efficient way to approach thework in the longer term.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (25:05):
I always say bringing in the mental health
professionals.
Like lubrication for the ballbearings the machinery might
work without it, but there'sgoing to be more friction and
parts wear out.
But when you lubricate the ballbearings it's much more
(25:25):
efficient and it's better forthe equipment.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CS (25:30):
So let's talk about the other side
of it, then, because there areabsolutely those cases where
it's not necessary.
And so what are the cases wherea mental health professional
isn't necessary?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (25:45):
It's one of those things where people came
to a joint decision that adivorce makes sense and they're
getting along well.
If they're getting along welland I'm not seeing that lack of
emotional control or emotionalself-awareness If people are
(26:08):
emotionally self-aware andthey're able to reach, make
proposals, reasonable proposalsand respond reasonably to
proposals, then I find that amental health professional may
not be as necessary, although Istruggle to find a case where a
(26:29):
mental health professionalcouldn't help at all.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (26:32):
My challenge with that is that I've
had you know when we used tomeet face to face all the time.
I would always allow the clientsto seat themselves in my big
conference room the first time,like to sort of make sure
everyone was positionedcorrectly.
(26:52):
When we got into the case, andif they were on the far cap ends
of the 12 person table, I had avery different case, as if they
were sitting in chairs next toeach other.
So there's an indication rightfrom the start.
If they're across from eachother, that tells you something
(27:12):
too.
But the problem I had issometimes people would come in
almost be holding hands, but youalways find out why they're
getting divorced.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (27:25):
Everybody's got a kryptonite.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (27:27):
Exactly, and my mistake has been.
Well, these folks are playingnicely in my presence.
I presume they're going to dojust fine, they don't need a
coach, and I will say nine outof 10 times that was a bad
decision on my behalf.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (27:43):
Well , I think, mark, that my belief
absolutely is far better to erron the side of having the mental
health professionals involvedat the outset and then use them
very sparingly, than to havethings go awry and try to bring
them in later.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (28:01):
Because it can feel remedial to the
clients.
Oh you've really screwed up.
Now we're going to have tobring in a mental health
professional.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (28:08):
And that doesn't feel good.
I will say this 100% of myclients could benefit from some
involvement with a mental healthprofessional.
I mean, every human probablyought to have therapy at some
point in their lives, I believe.
And it doesn't mean that you'redefective or weak because you
(28:31):
need to consult with a therapistor a mental health professional
.
It's because you're a human andyou have emotions just like the
rest of us.
And I've done cases.
I actually represented a familylaw attorney at court in his
own custody for a senior courtand he said to me I realized
(28:54):
that I'm a family law attorney,I represent people all the time
at court, but I realized that Icouldn't represent myself at
court.
And I think there's a reason whymental health professionals are
prohibited from doing therapyon themselves or their family
members.
And it's because you're a human.
You're going to have thosethings that creep up that make
(29:14):
it impossible for you to betruly objective and truly able
to make decisions.
And what I want people to makedecisions on is on good
information and objectivecriteria, not on some emotional
reaction.
So having someone that can helpthem recognize and control
their own emotions, it's just.
(29:37):
It's useful in every case.
I can't think of one where itwouldn't be useful.
I can think of cases where wecan get through it and I'm
pretty good.
I've got a lot of.
You know I'm a pretty goodmediator.
I'm trained in disputeresolution.
I know how to help peoplebridge gap.
But you know, there's Istruggled to think of a case
where they couldn't havebenefited from the mental health
profession.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (29:59):
And when you're thinking about the
difference of how we allpractice and how family law
litigators practice is the.
I believe we all have a concernabout how this couple are going
to do individually andseparately post-judgment,
(30:21):
whereas with the litigators yougot your judgment, I'm done.
I'm on to the next case.
I don't think they spend a lotof time worrying about how wife
is going to survive having kepther how she couldn't really
afford.
They're on to the next case.
But our process focuses notjust on getting a deal cut that
they can both feel okay aboutsigning.
(30:43):
It's really about setting upfor success on a both an
emotional and a financialstandpoint.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (30:51):
From that angle, and you said it a moment
ago, pete, when you said youknow people need to learn skills
Right, I always say you'relearning a new muscle.
When you're interacting in adivorce situation and when you
go to the gym for the first timein a while, you feel muscles
you didn't know you had and Ithink that happens in divorce.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (31:12):
Well , it does require, though, a
willingness on the part of theclients to avail themselves of
the resource, to recognize thatworking with a mental health
professional is in their bestinterests.
And, you know, somebody canrecognize that something is in
their best interest and bewilling to do it and not
particularly like it,particularly at the outset.
(31:33):
All of that can happensimultaneously, but what doesn't
work?
It's interesting.
I'm thinking back to the pointin my career where I made the
decision I am no longer going toaccept court-ordered cases.
There was a period of timewhere I would get referrals from
the court for people that wereinvolved in really bad litigated
(31:57):
divorces and somebody beingcourt-ordered to therapy.
That just doesn't go well, itdoesn't work, and so I think
similarly, if a person reallydoesn't want to do to connect
and work with a mental healthprofessional as part of a
collaborative process, it'sprobably not going to be
particularly helpful, although Iwould say that's probably also,
(32:21):
you know, fairly representativeof how they're going to show up
in the process more broadly aswell.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (32:28):
Guys, I have a question that you know
I've.
The situation I've come acrosson more than one occasion is
when I bring up the concept ofthe mental health professional,
the response has been well, yes,he needs one, but I don't.
He could certainly benefit, butI don't how do you?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (32:50):
She's crazy, she certainly is.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (32:53):
Exactly so .
How do you approach that from atherapy, from a therapist
standpoint?
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (33:00):
Well , the way that I address that is
here's the bottom line is whatI would say to a person in that
situation is it sounds like youwould like your
soon-to-be-exposed to be veryintrospective and to be
self-examining and looking attheir behavior, and you know the
(33:21):
answer to that is yes,absolutely.
Or sometimes with a particularswear word in front of the word
yes, right, yes.
And when I will say well, thebest way to ensure that or to
encourage that is to do ityourself.
So if you want them to beinvolved in coaching, it's in
your interest to do it as well.
(33:42):
And then I also say because thatcan't be a kind of manipulative
step they have to recognize andthey have to understand that
all couples co-create theirdynamic and they both have a
responsibility in it.
But the bottom line is theycan't expect their acts to do
something that they themselvesare not willing to do.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (34:03):
I'll often ask a person that's resistant to
hiring a mental healthprofessional have you ever had a
conversation with your spousewhere it just didn't go well and
you said something that justblew the and she reacted very
strongly or he reacted verystrongly to it in a way you
didn't expect?
Oh yeah, that's why we'regetting divorced.
(34:23):
Well, a coach can help you kindof avoid those landmarks, yeah,
and can kind of help youunderstand there's a reason why
you're getting divorced.
Right, it's not because youguys are getting along
fantastically.
Would you like to be able toget along well enough to be able
to get through this process?
Yes, Well, maybe this personcan help you know how to react
(34:44):
to it.
Kind of, maybe it sounds alittle manipulative, but you
need somebody to help you reactto her craziness or his
craziness, Somebody that cankind of help you have a better
strategy for how you're going towork with this very difficult
person.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (35:00):
A strategy I have used is to use the
children mercilessly.
Basically, you're having realchallenges in your co-parenting.
You've shared that with me.
I think you might be able toget some assistance around that
so your kids will be lessnegatively impacted by what's
(35:22):
going on, because you bothexpressed to me that you want
your kids to do well.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (35:26):
None of this .
Even though it sounds kind oflike we're manipulating, we're
not, because we're telling thetruth.
The one thing we know thatscrews kids up in a divorce is
the conflict.
If we can do something toreduce the conflict by bringing
a mental health professional andprotect your kids thereby,
wouldn't you want to be a partof that?
(35:47):
Would you like to be able tohave strategies to deal with
this person?
That's been very difficult foryou.
It hasn't worked so far.
You're getting divorced.
Would you like to have a betterrelationship with this person
even though you're divorcingthem?
Most people are like, yeah, Iactually would like to be able
to know how to interact withthat person.
I think the hardest ones toapproach are the ones that think
(36:10):
they're the smartest person inthe room all the time.
I don't need that.
I know how to work with her.
I just tell her off.
Those people are hard becausethey think they know better and
they blame everybody else fortheir problems.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (36:24):
I get that in the financial space too.
I understand all of this stuff.
My response to that is and Iwas explaining that to your wife
gone over the last 20 yearswould you like somebody who
could actually help herunderstand that the offer you're
making is a generous offer?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (36:46):
The folks that think they're the best
financial genius in the universe.
But they've done their own daytrading.
They've underperformed the S&P500 consistently for the last 25
years.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (36:55):
Those kind of people yes they are.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST (36:57):
I think we're drawing a
distinction between the casesthat they reach a settlement
successfully.
Then there are those cases thatthrive way beyond that, where
the people are willing to beintrospective.
Both partners are willing to beintrospective.
They're willing to think abouttheir contributions to the
(37:19):
co-created dynamic between them.
They're able to manage theirself-righteousness or their
entitlement or their hurt, anger, disappointment.
They're really able to come toa collaborative way of being
with each other that's betterfor them both as they separate
into the world as individuals,no longer partners and
(37:40):
co-parents.
I think it's fair to say youguys correct me if I'm wrong
it's a very, very rare case thatwe get started with that.
We can't get the parties to aplace of they're divorced,
they've signed an MSA, but weaspire to so much more and want
(38:01):
to provide so much more for thepeople that are willing to do
the work, and maybe we're comingfull circle.
I think that the mental healthprofessional that my role is
really trying to facilitate thatgrowth process for people in
this, that they literally usetheir divorce as a way of
growing.
I was going to say that.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (38:21):
Pete, the summary of what you were saying
before is can both of theseindividuals grow throughout the
process, become a little moreself-aware, a little more
competent in, perhaps, thefields they were not as involved
in during the marriage, be itthe parenting, be it the money?
(38:42):
There's always a division oflabor in a marriage.
That means that one knows moreabout the kids, one knows more
about the money, and that'sperfectly healthy when you're
married.
But when you divorce, thatimbalance can have a negative
impact on the future.
And then the person who didn'thandle the money grow to the
point where he or she iscomfortable in doing a budget,
(39:03):
paying the bills, living withintheir means.
Can the person that had no ideawhat was going on with the
children until the weekend camebe aware of the fact that they
need to have their equipmentwith them in the morning when
they go, otherwise they can't goto practice after school, that
kind of stuff, absolutely.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (39:24):
And I think there's.
I love it when people make meirrelevant as their mediator so
my job is to help bridge gapsand resolve disputes and when
people learn the skills to wherethey don't need a professional
mediator to sit with them everytime they talk about something.
That's to me, that is a paydayfor me, because so I feel
(39:48):
happier when I don't get repeatbusiness.
Maybe it's not a good businessmodel, but it's actually better
for the world because I love itwhen I don't have to hear from
people again.
Now, that said, sometimespeople come back because they
need some help.
But learning the skills to beable to resolve your own
disputes, to be able to heareach other's grievances, hear
(40:10):
each other's concerns and beaware of one another's needs,
even post-divorce and yourchildren's needs, is really what
we're looking for and that'sreally why we've you know, we
kind of tie everything togetherfrom our three-part series.
We've got the attorneys, we'vegot the to help with the legal
needs, we have the financialprofessional to help with the
(40:32):
financial needs and we have themental health professionals to
help with the emotional needs,and really all three of them
working together.
It's the three stools todispute resolution, or the three
legs to the stool for disputeresolution.
It enables everybody to havethe skills they need and the
information they need to be ableto not need us anymore.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (40:58):
And some people come into this process
not willing to reallyparticipate in it.
You know they want to have theprofessionals talk, from their
lawyer to talk for them, andwhat we've been dealing with
addressing today requires themto become engaged and to become
a part of the process, asopposed to an observer of the
(41:21):
process.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (41:22):
I can't tell you how many cases I've had
where a person is like I cannotbe in the same room with that
person, yeah, and I'm like, well, let's just see how this goes
Right.
And usually by the end of theprocess they're able to do it.
Maybe it's not comfortable,maybe they're angry and hurt and
betrayed and all of the above,but they can do it.
They've got a new skill,they've got it and they're
(41:44):
stronger as a result.
Yeah, yeah, well, go ahead, wedid it again.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (41:53):
We do that every time.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (41:55):
Yeah, so Pete, if somebody needs a mental
health professional toparticipate in their divorce
mediation, what should they do?
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (42:05):
They can go to my website
peterrusoscom.
It's p-e-t-e-r-r-o-u-s-s-o-scom.
I've got a lot of informationthere about my practice and my
way of working and they canemail me from the contact me
page there.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (42:22):
Okay and Mark, if somebody needs some
help with the financial aspectsof their divorce, what should
they do?
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (42:28):
Once again go into the website it's the
company name is Pacific DivorceManagement, the website is
pacdivorcecom and we have acontact form on there too.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (42:38):
And if you need help resolving your legal
dispute, I am here.
My name is Sean Weber it'sWeber Dispute Resolution
W-e-b-e-r-1-b, like the grilldisputeresolutioncom, and we can
help you get matched with amediator to resolve any dispute
that you have.
Okay, well, until next time, nolegal, financial or mental
(43:30):
health advice is intended duringthis podcast.
If you need help with yourspecific situation, feel free to
schedule a time to speak withone of us for a personal
consultation.
Thank you.
And I just love that, that imagery that you
gave us there of dancingjoyfully.
I always say you want to danceat your daughter's wedding, but
the dancing joyfully part thatnow I'm sure that may feel a
reach for some people.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (00:14):
Yeah , absolutely, absolutely.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (00:16):
Absolutely I'll dance, but I'm keeping
arms length you know I'm notdancing with him.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (00:21):
I had that in a meeting the other day.
The person's like I'm not goingto dance with him.
I'll dance, but I'm not goingto dance with him.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (00:25):
Would you be willing to do a line
dance?
Can we agree?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (00:28):
on that.
Yes, yes, welcome to the ThreeWisemen of Divorce Money, psych
and Law podcast.
Sit down with the Californiadivorce experts financial
divorce consultant Mark Hill,marriage and family therapist
Pete Russo's and attorney SeanWeber for a frank and casual
(00:52):
conversation about divorce,separation, co-parenting and the
difficult decisions real peoplelike you face during these
tough times.
We know that if you are lookingat divorce or separation, it
can be scary and overwhelming.
With combined experience ofover 60 years of divorce and
conflict management, we are herefor you and look forward to
(01:12):
helping by sharing our uniqueideas, thoughts and perspectives
on divorce, separation andco-parenting.
Well, we are almost done withour three-part series.
We've done why it's importantand how it's important and
useful to have an attorneyinvolved in your mediation.
(01:33):
We talked about the usefulnessof a financial specialist as
part of your divorce mediationand this week, for this podcast,
we want to talk about the roleof a mental health professional
in a mediation and before westarted recording, you and I,
pete, were talking about thedifferent angles and different
(01:56):
roles that a mental healthprofessional can play in a
divorce mediation, but therewould seem to be a unifying
theme.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (02:10):
Yeah , I think that the 30,000-foot
view, if you will, is.
I think that my role is reallyabout helping people manage
themselves through the difficultand challenging emotions that
come up as part of the divorceprocess, as part of trying to
transition into a morecollaborative co-parenting,
(02:34):
dealing with the grief that Ithink is inevitable.
Even when someone views adivorce as being the really
healthy decision, the rightdecision for them, I think
there's almost always a griefprocess that's involved, and so
how do they work through thoseemotions and then the very
practical aspects of it.
(02:55):
When I'm assisting in amediation, often my role is to
help people manage theirreactive moments better so that
they can communicate moreeffectively, be engaged more
effectively in a settlementdiscussion that might at times
be challenging and difficult.
(03:16):
So, again, I think the broadthing that ties these different
ways that I can be involvedtogether is how do I help people
learn how to manage thethoughts and feelings that come
up for them, that are painful,that are challenging, as they're
going through the ending of amarriage and the conditioning of
(03:39):
a family?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (03:40):
And, of course, we've also seen that
inverse relationship, theinverse proportion relationship,
between the people thatactually need a coach and the
ones that are willing to hire acoach or a mental health
professional.
It tends to be that when you'relike I don't need a mental
health professional, there's theones that I worry about the
most.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (04:00):
And also there's the resistance that you
get from people oh no, I don'tneed another mental health
professional.
We spent years in therapy.
It was a waste of time andmoney.
Look where we ended up.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (04:12):
It failed.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (04:13):
Exactly.
So it's important to explainthe difference of the roles as a
marital therapist and asassisting in the mediation.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (04:24):
Yeah , well, I would say the goals
and the objectives aredefinitely different.
What's interesting for me,though, is the way that I work
with people in therapy versusthe way that I work with people
that I'm assisting in eithermediation or working as a coach
and collaborative process isabsolutely the same.
(04:45):
My core focus is onself-management and what it is
that the people need to do tomanage themselves in more
appropriate, respectful andeffective ways when they are
feeling uncomfortable, whenthey're triggered, when they're
dealing with tough issues, andso the but, but, having said
that, the goals and theobjectives it is about getting
(05:09):
through a divorce process in thehealthiest way possible.
It's about being morecollaborative co-parents, and so
those are way more specific.
It's about disentangling asromantic partners, not trying to
transform and heal a romanticrelationship.
So the focus is very, very,very different, but I think the
(05:30):
dynamics and this is part of thework, the things that made the
marriage difficult are going toplay out in a mediation and a
collaborative process.
In fact, one of the things thatactually drew me to
collaborative work and let mefigure this out I started doing,
I got trained in thecollaborative model in 1996.
(05:53):
And I had been done one of myinternships at Family Court
Services in Santa Clara County.
That was my first exposure todivorce work.
That's how I met practitionersin the collaborative divorce
model, and one of the thingsthat really drew me to the model
was hearing Nancy Ross talkabout how she had been working
(06:18):
cases, and it wasn't unusual forher to hear clients in a
collaborative divorce say thatthey wished that they had
connected with Nancy sooner, andwhat they recognized was they
were able to make these healthychanges as part of their
(06:38):
coaching process.
In a collaborative divorceprocess, they were actually able
to transform their dynamic witheach other and it became much
healthier.
And it was this bittersweetmoment where they found
themselves thinking, oh what ifwe had been able to do this work
sooner?
Who knows, maybe?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (06:59):
the.
I was going to say there's alot there that we need to unpack
for our listeners who may notbe familiar with collaborative
practice or collaborativedivorce and Nancy Ross.
But collaborative practice isthe movement that came out right
about when you started in thatpractice in the mid-90s, where
and we've had Stu Webb who wasthe father of collaborative
(07:20):
divorce on our podcast, andwe've had Nancy Ross, who I
would say she's the mother ofthe coaching in collaborative
practice Absolutely the ideathat you would have various
professionals from variousfields collaborate on a case
together attorneys, mentalhealth professionals, financial
(07:42):
professionals and all of themsign an agreement that says that
they're never going to go tocourt.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, C (07:48):
And I think, sean, to the question
that really this podcast isfocused on.
So what does a mental healthprofessional bring to the
process?
The movement to collaborativepractice, I think, was driven by
this recognition, yeah, that ina divorce there are the legal
elements, there are financialelements and there are
psychological, emotionalelements and you have to work in
(08:09):
all three.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (08:09):
Which is a lot of what this podcast means
right.
Absolutely, it requires adivorce, but we come from our
three fields.
We believe strongly that youcan't settle a case until you
resolve the financial, theemotional and the legal needs of
both of the clients, and sothat I think, bringing in a
mental health professional fromthe collaborative model I think
(08:30):
we've learned so much aboutworking with mental health
professionals from thecollaborative movement that it
has really made mediation better.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (08:40):
Well , I want to revisit a question
that we have talked about, Ithink, in the context of the
financial specialist discussion,but the way that I think about
it is that the one professionalthat is needed, if you will, in
order for a couple to getdivorced is the attorney.
The attorneys are needed, ifyou will, and even that is cast
(09:04):
in concrete, but the financialspecialist and the mental health
professionals are not needed inorder to get divorced.
I would argue that theycertainly facilitate having a
healthy divorce process, ahealthier divorce process.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (09:23):
And, I would say, better outcomes, from
my standpoint certainly.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (09:29):
I might rephrase the way you said that,
please, who's needed versuswho's not needed.
I think all of them are needed,but one.
You can get divorced unless youhave a legal process, which is
why the attorneys kind of seemmore essential.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, C (09:44):
But so let me ask you both, because
we and this is part of thequestion that we were talking
about, the financial specialist.
I think I asked you, sean.
So how do you determine thatyou, that a case really would
benefit from having a financialspecialist?
So let's, let's alter thatquestion how do the two of you
determine that a case reallywould benefit by having a mental
(10:07):
health professional involved?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (10:10):
I think the number one thing is when I'm
meeting with people for thefirst time and I'm seeing that
there is a struggle inself-awareness, being able to be
aware number one of what theother person is saying or coming
from and also, are you aware ofhow you are coming across?
(10:33):
Are you aware of your ownemotions?
And I think so many people it'salmost an emotional
intelligence argument so manypeople when they get into the
divorce they get stuck with thatfight or flight.
They're very intelligent,normally very emotionally
intelligent people lose controlof that emotional response.
(10:56):
When I see that happening, thenI think a coach can be very
useful.
The other thing is, if there'sfear from one party towards the
other, I find that having amental health professional
involved can really help,because what you're really
managing is the fight or flightresponse and you're also
(11:19):
managing the person that isfeared does things probably
where that person does notrealize that they are eliciting
fear from the other person.
Having a mental healthprofessional and say hey, you
know the way you say this from astrategy standpoint is less
effective.
If you could say it this waywould resonate better with your
(11:39):
soon to be a spouse and thenmight actually get you to better
outcomes.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (11:44):
One of the red flags that I get is when
people want to tell me why themoney needs to go in a certain
way, because of somethinghappened in the marriage In
other words because she did this.
I need this to happenfinancially.
That is generally somethingthat I mean.
(12:06):
You always say, sean, we cantalk about the who, what and the
when, but please let's stayaway from the why, because
that's when we get into thedifficulties of really
relitigating what happened inthe marriage.
And, as I say to clients,wouldn't it be unreasonable to
think that the divorce would beany easier than the marriage was
?
And that usually gets them togo.
(12:28):
Oh yeah, I guess.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (12:30):
Mark , what you're saying, I think,
is the really importantdistinction to make to those
people who have said we were inmarriage therapy multiple times.
It didn't help us.
We don't need coaching becauseit's not going to help us to be
able to make it very, very clearthat it's not about going back
and rehashing but sometimes itdoes involve a certain amount of
(12:54):
grief, work just to get themthrough the process and help
them the individuals, in theirown adjustments but that it is
very, very focused on the goalsand objectives of getting
through the divorce process inthe healthiest and most
respective way possible to havea better outcome.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (13:12):
And if there are children involved,
it's even more important becausethere's the requirement for a
relationship or an interactionto occur.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (13:22):
Well, that's a very good, but you brought up
what are the things that wouldmake me one to bring in a mental
health professional.
If I'm seeing alienation orestrangement happening with the
kids, it's hard for me to knowwhat is really going on with the
family.
And having a mental healthprofessional, either as a
(13:44):
neutral child specialist or twomental health professionals
working with each party, ithelps me understand the family
system a little better as adispute resolution person, and
then I can then figure out thenhow to align that emotional,
legal and financial needs butthen also do it in a way that
(14:05):
makes them more effective asco-parents and protects the
children.
I was watching the crown lastnight.
I'm sure Mark is thrilled thatI watched the crown, but there
was a scene where Diana andCharles the people playing them
(14:25):
Charles said we didn't do a verygood job as spouses, but maybe
we could do a better job withall of this, and he points to
his two sons, maybe we could bebetter partners, and I thought
that's actually a good point.
I know this is a dramatizationand the conversation may not
have even occurred, and whocares anyway?
(14:46):
Because it's the royal familywho cares about them.
But understanding that thismessage that we failed is, if
you want to use that word, evenfail in our marriage.
Our marriage did not go well.
Things were not butterflies andrainbows.
That's why we're here.
But can we improve the way thatwe communicate and work
(15:10):
together so that we could beeffective partners in rearing
our children?
I think of Connie AronsConstance Arons, who wrote the
book the Good Divorce and was amental health professional here
in San Diego that I've done alot of good work with before she
passed away and all of us did.
(15:30):
She talks about in her book thedifferent types of parenting,
co-parenting styles.
And there's the bitter enemies,those people.
But then the ones that reallywork out well where it's a good
divorce, those are the ones thatare the power partnership.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (15:50):
Well , the other thing that I heard
that drew me to the model andthis was in the training that I
did in the collaborative doorsmodel was that the goal, if you
will, where what they wantedpeople to envision was that a
couple could get divorced andthen they could, at some point
(16:12):
in the future, dance joyfullytogether at the wedding of their
child?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (16:16):
Dance joyfully together.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, C (16:18):
Yes , yeah, you imagine.
And what a gift to be able togive a child, for parents to
pull themselves together and tobe able to do that.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (16:33):
And actually feel good about it, not just
like I'm going to put on astrong face.
I'm going to be good for thekids, but, like you know, I
actually want to have apartnership with this, my
co-creator.
You know, when you're a parent,you're a co-creator.
I always say it's as close tobeing near God as possible
(16:54):
because you are creating life,and to be a co-creator with this
person and these people thatneed you.
Having that ability to getthere is so huge and I just love
that imagery that you gave usthere of dancing joyfully.
I always say, do you want todance at your daughter's wedding
(17:16):
?
But the dancing joyfully partdad.
Now.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (17:20):
I'm sure that may feel a reach for some
people.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (17:23):
Yeah , absolutely, absolutely.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (17:26):
I'll dance , but I'm keeping arms length
you know I'm not dancing withhim.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (17:30):
I had that in a meeting the other day.
The person's like I'm not goingto dance with him.
I'll dance, but I'm not goingto dance with him.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (17:35):
Would you be willing to do a line
dance?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (17:38):
And we agree on that.
Yes, yes.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST (17:42):
I think it's important that we
hold out these higher objectivesbut also recognize when they
may not be realistic.
And what is it that we can doto minimize the hurt, to reduce
the damage and, hopefully for mein my role, to try to impart
some skill building and sometools that they can build on so
(18:04):
that things can improve over thelonger term between them.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (18:10):
So let's talk about the different ways
that a mental healthprofessional can be utilized on
a case.
I feel like there's so manydifferent angles where a mental
health professional can beinvolved.
One is, maybe you're the couplestherapist and they've decided
in couples therapy that itdivorces what needs to happen,
and then you become the divorcetherapist and that continues and
(18:30):
parties can sign releases toallow the mental health
professional that they'recontinuing to work with to
communicate with the mediator,and I always find it to be very
useful, yeah, and then there'schildren's therapists.
They're providing therapists toa child and I had a case
recently and I've done thisfrequently where there's a
release signed so the eyes ofthe mediator can communicate
(18:52):
with the mental healthprofessional.
And this is before.
I was going to have a meetingwith a 15 year old girl about
her feelings about the divorceand wanted to be able to express
things and I was able to talkto her mental health
professional, her therapist, andwe got on the same page and it
ended up being very usefulmeeting and then I now need to
(19:13):
report back to the therapistwhat happened and get more
feedback.
And the therapist actually tooksome of the therapy time to
prepare the child for themeeting with the mediator?
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (19:23):
Yeah , that was very useful, well,
and I want to give credit to youfor working in that way.
I also want to give credit tothe parents and their
willingness to authorize that tothe 15 year old, to be willing
to engage in that way, and forthe therapist to support that,
(19:43):
because that doesn't alwayshappen?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (19:45):
Yeah, it doesn't always happen.
And I think a lot of timestherapists are out there and
they hear divorce legalproceeding and they're very
worried they're going to besucked in as a witness or that
things that they tell themediator show up in court in a
public way.
And I always reassure themental health professionals that
(20:06):
I work with.
Listen, at least in California,under evidence code 1119,
everything that is discussed inmediation, including the
conversations between atherapist and a mediator, have
some of the strongestconfidentiality in the entire
evidence code.
There's nothing really that canbe done to breach that code
unless, like you know, there wasa reportable event or something
(20:29):
that occurred, you know likesomebody was in danger, a child
is in danger or something likethat.
Well then, that would breachthe confidentiality and that
would be discoverable.
But other than that, anythingthat is said between the
mediator and the therapist isstrictly confidential and I
don't share it with the parties,even you know, and that that's
(20:52):
some reassurance that they'vebeen given to a mental health
professional.
Oh, this is actually a saferenvironment for my clients to be
in and if they were to go tocourt and I've seen people lose
licenses or come close to losinglicenses, over saying the wrong
thing to an attorney in alitigation case or being a
witness when they're really atherapist.
You know they have to becareful about their roles that
(21:12):
way, Absolutely.
And then there's there's alsothen the, the coach, the
collaborative coach model thatworks very well in mediation to
where you're not providingtherapy.
You know what happened to youwhen you're too with your mom.
I joke about but but about whatam I going to do now for the to
prepare for this meeting or toget friends moment in my history
(21:34):
?
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (21:35):
and focusing on the communication
between the couple.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (21:38):
Yeah, I mean that's, that's another role.
And then there's thecollaborative child specialist
role, which is a person thatcould come in and be a child
specialist.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (21:49):
Yeah , and the coaching role can be I
mean, there is absolutely thepart of it about helping people
to understand and manage their,their thoughts and feelings more
effectively but also can bevery nuts and bolts in terms of
skill building how they say whatthey say, the tone that they
use.
Another role that, another waythat I'll work in the process,
(22:11):
is that the mediator or the, theconsulting attorneys they may
refer the couple back to me totalk about the co-parenting
agreement, or there may be evenbe some specific questions that
they have vis-a-vis settlementthat they want to discuss with
me, and I mean that one of theadvantages of that is that that
(22:36):
is a less expensive way to havethose preliminary discussions
and I think that can work reallywell when there's coordination
amongst the professional teammembers.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (22:50):
I think that's key is the coordination
between the professionalsAbsolutely, absolutely and the
clients allowing theprofessionals to do that,
because sometimes people getconcerned about losing control
of their case and turning itover to a professional.
But I think these conversationsthat the professionals can have
(23:10):
behind your back I was joking,we're going to talk about you
behind your back those areactually very helpful so that we
can be very frank with eachother, and then again, that's
all protected by mediationconfidentiality.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (23:23):
Well, also , it saves money, because if one
of us has obtained informationsince the last team meeting,
that revealed in the meetingwould cause all sorts of
consternation which does happenyou find out something happened
around the money that one spousehas revealed that the other
(23:44):
spouse had no knowledge of.
My concern is that it's goingto result in a blow up.
We can talk about how toaddress it and how best, who
best to bring it up and how itshould be discussed, and that is
very powerful.
But if we don't have thosepre-meetings as I like to call
them 15, 30 minutes beforegetting on with everybody,
(24:09):
sometimes I feel I'm going intoa meeting and I get blindsided
because I just don't know thatsomething else occurred in
another sphere of the case.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (24:21):
Yeah .
So I think, mark, what you'rereferencing connects with
something that we've talkedabout before, and that is how
people, how clients, react tothe idea that there's a
professional team involved, andhow important it is that we help
them understand why it'sactually going to save them
money in the long run, becauseit's a more efficient process,
(24:43):
there's a greater level of acoordination of care, which is
absolutely key and for them tounderstand why the process works
the way it does and thatinvolving people in the ways
that we're suggesting is reallythe more cost effective and
efficient way to approach thework in the longer term.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (25:05):
I always say bringing in the mental health
professionals.
Like lubrication for the ballbearings the machinery might
work without it, but there'sgoing to be more friction and
parts wear out.
But when you lubricate the ballbearings it's much more
(25:25):
efficient and it's better forthe equipment.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CS (25:30):
So let's talk about the other side
of it, then, because there areabsolutely those cases where
it's not necessary.
And so what are the cases wherea mental health professional
isn't necessary?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (25:45):
It's one of those things where people came
to a joint decision that adivorce makes sense and they're
getting along well.
If they're getting along welland I'm not seeing that lack of
emotional control or emotionalself-awareness If people are
(26:08):
emotionally self-aware andthey're able to reach, make
proposals, reasonable proposalsand respond reasonably to
proposals, then I find that amental health professional may
not be as necessary, although Istruggle to find a case where a
(26:29):
mental health professionalcouldn't help at all.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (26:32):
My challenge with that is that I've
had you know when we used tomeet face to face all the time.
I would always allow the clientsto seat themselves in my big
conference room the first time,like to sort of make sure
everyone was positionedcorrectly.
(26:52):
When we got into the case, andif they were on the far cap ends
of the 12 person table, I had avery different case, as if they
were sitting in chairs next toeach other.
So there's an indication rightfrom the start.
If they're across from eachother, that tells you something
(27:12):
too.
But the problem I had issometimes people would come in
almost be holding hands, but youalways find out why they're
getting divorced.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (27:25):
Everybody's got a kryptonite.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (27:27):
Exactly, and my mistake has been.
Well, these folks are playingnicely in my presence.
I presume they're going to dojust fine, they don't need a
coach, and I will say nine outof 10 times that was a bad
decision on my behalf.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (27:43):
Well , I think, mark, that my belief
absolutely is far better to erron the side of having the mental
health professionals involvedat the outset and then use them
very sparingly, than to havethings go awry and try to bring
them in later.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (28:01):
Because it can feel remedial to the
clients.
Oh you've really screwed up.
Now we're going to have tobring in a mental health
professional.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (28:08):
And that doesn't feel good.
I will say this 100% of myclients could benefit from some
involvement with a mental healthprofessional.
I mean, every human probablyought to have therapy at some
point in their lives, I believe.
And it doesn't mean that you'redefective or weak because you
(28:31):
need to consult with a therapistor a mental health professional
.
It's because you're a human andyou have emotions just like the
rest of us.
And I've done cases.
I actually represented a familylaw attorney at court in his
own custody for a senior courtand he said to me I realized
(28:54):
that I'm a family law attorney,I represent people all the time
at court, but I realized that Icouldn't represent myself at
court.
And I think there's a reason whymental health professionals are
prohibited from doing therapyon themselves or their family
members.
And it's because you're a human.
You're going to have thosethings that creep up that make
(29:14):
it impossible for you to betruly objective and truly able
to make decisions.
And what I want people to makedecisions on is on good
information and objectivecriteria, not on some emotional
reaction.
So having someone that can helpthem recognize and control
their own emotions, it's just.
(29:37):
It's useful in every case.
I can't think of one where itwouldn't be useful.
I can think of cases where wecan get through it and I'm
pretty good.
I've got a lot of.
You know I'm a pretty goodmediator.
I'm trained in disputeresolution.
I know how to help peoplebridge gap.
But you know, there's Istruggled to think of a case
where they couldn't havebenefited from the mental health
profession.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (29:59):
And when you're thinking about the
difference of how we allpractice and how family law
litigators practice is the.
I believe we all have a concernabout how this couple are going
to do individually andseparately post-judgment,
(30:21):
whereas with the litigators yougot your judgment, I'm done.
I'm on to the next case.
I don't think they spend a lotof time worrying about how wife
is going to survive having kepther how she couldn't really
afford.
They're on to the next case.
But our process focuses notjust on getting a deal cut that
they can both feel okay aboutsigning.
(30:43):
It's really about setting upfor success on a both an
emotional and a financialstandpoint.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (30:51):
From that angle, and you said it a moment
ago, pete, when you said youknow people need to learn skills
Right, I always say you'relearning a new muscle.
When you're interacting in adivorce situation and when you
go to the gym for the first timein a while, you feel muscles
you didn't know you had and Ithink that happens in divorce.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (31:12):
Well , it does require, though, a
willingness on the part of theclients to avail themselves of
the resource, to recognize thatworking with a mental health
professional is in their bestinterests.
And, you know, somebody canrecognize that something is in
their best interest and bewilling to do it and not
particularly like it,particularly at the outset.
(31:33):
All of that can happensimultaneously, but what doesn't
work?
It's interesting.
I'm thinking back to the pointin my career where I made the
decision I am no longer going toaccept court-ordered cases.
There was a period of timewhere I would get referrals from
the court for people that wereinvolved in really bad litigated
(31:57):
divorces and somebody beingcourt-ordered to therapy.
That just doesn't go well, itdoesn't work, and so I think
similarly, if a person reallydoesn't want to do to connect
and work with a mental healthprofessional as part of a
collaborative process, it'sprobably not going to be
particularly helpful, although Iwould say that's probably also,
(32:21):
you know, fairly representativeof how they're going to show up
in the process more broadly aswell.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (32:28):
Guys, I have a question that you know
I've.
The situation I've come acrosson more than one occasion is
when I bring up the concept ofthe mental health professional,
the response has been well, yes,he needs one, but I don't.
He could certainly benefit, butI don't how do you?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (32:50):
She's crazy, she certainly is.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (32:53):
Exactly so .
How do you approach that from atherapy, from a therapist
standpoint?
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (33:00):
Well , the way that I address that is
here's the bottom line is whatI would say to a person in that
situation is it sounds like youwould like your
soon-to-be-exposed to be veryintrospective and to be
self-examining and looking attheir behavior, and you know the
(33:21):
answer to that is yes,absolutely.
Or sometimes with a particularswear word in front of the word
yes, right, yes.
And when I will say well, thebest way to ensure that or to
encourage that is to do ityourself.
So if you want them to beinvolved in coaching, it's in
your interest to do it as well.
(33:42):
And then I also say because thatcan't be a kind of manipulative
step they have to recognize andthey have to understand that
all couples co-create theirdynamic and they both have a
responsibility in it.
But the bottom line is theycan't expect their acts to do
something that they themselvesare not willing to do.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (34:03):
I'll often ask a person that's resistant to
hiring a mental healthprofessional have you ever had a
conversation with your spousewhere it just didn't go well and
you said something that justblew the and she reacted very
strongly or he reacted verystrongly to it in a way you
didn't expect?
Oh yeah, that's why we'regetting divorced.
(34:23):
Well, a coach can help you kindof avoid those landmarks, yeah,
and can kind of help youunderstand there's a reason why
you're getting divorced.
Right, it's not because youguys are getting along
fantastically.
Would you like to be able toget along well enough to be able
to get through this process?
Yes, Well, maybe this personcan help you know how to react
(34:44):
to it.
Kind of, maybe it sounds alittle manipulative, but you
need somebody to help you reactto her craziness or his
craziness, Somebody that cankind of help you have a better
strategy for how you're going towork with this very difficult
person.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (35:00):
A strategy I have used is to use the
children mercilessly.
Basically, you're having realchallenges in your co-parenting.
You've shared that with me.
I think you might be able toget some assistance around that
so your kids will be lessnegatively impacted by what's
(35:22):
going on, because you bothexpressed to me that you want
your kids to do well.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (35:26):
None of this .
Even though it sounds kind oflike we're manipulating, we're
not, because we're telling thetruth.
The one thing we know thatscrews kids up in a divorce is
the conflict.
If we can do something toreduce the conflict by bringing
a mental health professional andprotect your kids thereby,
wouldn't you want to be a partof that?
(35:47):
Would you like to be able tohave strategies to deal with
this person?
That's been very difficult foryou.
It hasn't worked so far.
You're getting divorced.
Would you like to have a betterrelationship with this person
even though you're divorcingthem?
Most people are like, yeah, Iactually would like to be able
to know how to interact withthat person.
I think the hardest ones toapproach are the ones that think
(36:10):
they're the smartest person inthe room all the time.
I don't need that.
I know how to work with her.
I just tell her off.
Those people are hard becausethey think they know better and
they blame everybody else fortheir problems.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (36:24):
I get that in the financial space too.
I understand all of this stuff.
My response to that is and Iwas explaining that to your wife
gone over the last 20 yearswould you like somebody who
could actually help herunderstand that the offer you're
making is a generous offer?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (36:46):
The folks that think they're the best
financial genius in the universe.
But they've done their own daytrading.
They've underperformed the S&P500 consistently for the last 25
years.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (36:55):
Those kind of people yes they are.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST (36:57):
I think we're drawing a
distinction between the casesthat they reach a settlement
successfully.
Then there are those cases thatthrive way beyond that, where
the people are willing to beintrospective.
Both partners are willing to beintrospective.
They're willing to think abouttheir contributions to the
(37:19):
co-created dynamic between them.
They're able to manage theirself-righteousness or their
entitlement or their hurt, anger, disappointment.
They're really able to come toa collaborative way of being
with each other that's betterfor them both as they separate
into the world as individuals,no longer partners and
(37:40):
co-parents.
I think it's fair to say youguys correct me if I'm wrong
it's a very, very rare case thatwe get started with that.
We can't get the parties to aplace of they're divorced,
they've signed an MSA, but weaspire to so much more and want
(38:01):
to provide so much more for thepeople that are willing to do
the work, and maybe we're comingfull circle.
I think that the mental healthprofessional that my role is
really trying to facilitate thatgrowth process for people in
this, that they literally usetheir divorce as a way of
growing.
I was going to say that.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (38:21):
Pete, the summary of what you were saying
before is can both of theseindividuals grow throughout the
process, become a little moreself-aware, a little more
competent in, perhaps, thefields they were not as involved
in during the marriage, be itthe parenting, be it the money?
(38:42):
There's always a division oflabor in a marriage.
That means that one knows moreabout the kids, one knows more
about the money, and that'sperfectly healthy when you're
married.
But when you divorce, thatimbalance can have a negative
impact on the future.
And then the person who didn'thandle the money grow to the
point where he or she iscomfortable in doing a budget,
(39:03):
paying the bills, living withintheir means.
Can the person that had no ideawhat was going on with the
children until the weekend camebe aware of the fact that they
need to have their equipmentwith them in the morning when
they go, otherwise they can't goto practice after school, that
kind of stuff, absolutely.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (39:24):
And I think there's.
I love it when people make meirrelevant as their mediator so
my job is to help bridge gapsand resolve disputes and when
people learn the skills to wherethey don't need a professional
mediator to sit with them everytime they talk about something.
That's to me, that is a paydayfor me, because so I feel
(39:48):
happier when I don't get repeatbusiness.
Maybe it's not a good businessmodel, but it's actually better
for the world because I love itwhen I don't have to hear from
people again.
Now, that said, sometimespeople come back because they
need some help.
But learning the skills to beable to resolve your own
disputes, to be able to heareach other's grievances, hear
(40:10):
each other's concerns and beaware of one another's needs,
even post-divorce and yourchildren's needs, is really what
we're looking for and that'sreally why we've you know, we
kind of tie everything togetherfrom our three-part series.
We've got the attorneys, we'vegot the to help with the legal
needs, we have the financialprofessional to help with the
(40:32):
financial needs and we have themental health professionals to
help with the emotional needs,and really all three of them
working together.
It's the three stools todispute resolution, or the three
legs to the stool for disputeresolution.
It enables everybody to havethe skills they need and the
information they need to be ableto not need us anymore.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (40:58):
And some people come into this process
not willing to reallyparticipate in it.
You know they want to have theprofessionals talk, from their
lawyer to talk for them, andwhat we've been dealing with
addressing today requires themto become engaged and to become
a part of the process, asopposed to an observer of the
(41:21):
process.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (41:22):
I can't tell you how many cases I've had
where a person is like I cannotbe in the same room with that
person, yeah, and I'm like, well, let's just see how this goes
Right.
And usually by the end of theprocess they're able to do it.
Maybe it's not comfortable,maybe they're angry and hurt and
betrayed and all of the above,but they can do it.
They've got a new skill,they've got it and they're
(41:44):
stronger as a result.
Yeah, yeah, well, go ahead, wedid it again.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (41:53):
We do that every time.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (41:55):
Yeah, so Pete, if somebody needs a mental
health professional toparticipate in their divorce
mediation, what should they do?
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, (42:05):
They can go to my website
peterrusoscom.
It's p-e-t-e-r-r-o-u-s-s-o-scom.
I've got a lot of informationthere about my practice and my
way of working and they canemail me from the contact me
page there.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (42:22):
Okay and Mark, if somebody needs some
help with the financial aspectsof their divorce, what should
they do?
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA (42:28):
Once again go into the website it's the
company name is Pacific DivorceManagement, the website is
pacdivorcecom and we have acontact form on there too.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F (42:38):
And if you need help resolving your legal
dispute, I am here.
My name is Sean Weber it'sWeber Dispute Resolution
W-e-b-e-r-1-b, like the grilldisputeresolutioncom, and we can
help you get matched with amediator to resolve any dispute
that you have.
Okay, well, until next time, nolegal, financial or mental
(43:30):
health advice is intended duringthis podcast.
If you need help with yourspecific situation, feel free to
schedule a time to speak withone of us for a personal
consultation.
Thank you.
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