November 8, 2022 • 34 mins
The first holidays after a divorce can be tough. We call it the "Year of Firsts." It's the first Christmas, Passover, Birthday, Fourth of July, and even Super Bowl Sunday while separated. Questions abound such as:
- How are the holidays split in a divorce?
- What will Christmas after divorce be like?
- Should divorced parents spend holidays together?
Surviving the holidays after divorce can be challenging. Divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, discuss legal, financial, and emotional aspects of the first holidays after divorce.
*Certified Specialist - Family Law
The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark Hill (00:00):
As an Englishman, what is this obsession with
pumpkin pie? I mean, I ate itonce and I thought, okay,
there's apple here. I'm gonna gowith the apple and
Shawn Weber (00:10):
You know what though, we've had English food
Welcome to the three wise men ofdivorce, money, Psych, and law
podcast. Sit down with theCalifornia divorce experts
financial divorce consultantMark Hill, marriage and family
therapist, Pete Russo's andattorney Shawn Weber. For a
(00:33):
frank and casual conversationabout divorce, separation, co
parenting and the difficultdecisions, real people like you
face during these tough times.
We know that if you are lookingat divorce or separation, it can
be scary and overwhelming. Withcombined experience of over 60
years of divorce and conflictmanagement, we are here for you
and look forward to help bysharing our unique ideas,
(00:54):
thoughts and perspectives ondivorce, separation, and co
parenting.
Mark Hill (01:05):
So, Shawn, the holidays are coming up,
Shawn Weber (01:10):
that they are
Mark Hill (01:11):
Pete, do people ever get kind of concerned about this
when divorce is in the air, whenwhen the holidays are coming up,
and they've traditionally donethings in certain ways. And they
wonder how they're changingcircumstances with their spouse
might impact this.
Peter Roussos (01:27):
So I think every single time this is, you know,
the the year I think of the yearof firsts that for families that
are going through a divorce, andwhat's it like to go through
that first holiday season? Andparticularly if the decision to
divorce is is, you know,relatively recent. And the CO
(01:48):
parents are trying to figure outdo you celebrate the holidays
together? What's going to bebetter for the kids? You know,
that that first holiday period?
If a if a co parenting pant planis in place, and the holidays
have been outlined and scheduledand divided? What's it like for
the parent who is going forthrough the first Thanksgiving
(02:09):
that they have gone throughwithout their kids? There's just
so much stuff around theholidays? Yeah.
Shawn Weber (02:17):
I mean, there's a lot I've seen people do it
different ways, or they're indifferent stages of their
divorce, like the people thatare just barely starting. Maybe
they haven't told the kid sothen they do Christmas together,
ironically, together, andthey're pretending that we're
all happy family.
Mark Hill (02:33):
And the worry they have about family members.
They've told about this. Sowe're going to have a couple of
drinks and or even attack thespouse over what they've heard.
You know, there's camps beingestablished. Oh, yeah. Yeah,
I've seen
Shawn Weber (02:49):
one thing I've learned in divorce is Blood is
thicker than water. Yeah, yeah.
And people when they hearthere's a divorce, the automatic
tendency is to divide into campsand circle around your relative.
But yeah, if you I mean, that'sa whole other podcast we could
probably do is talking toextended family about how to how
you want to divorce and how youwant to be a whole other
(03:11):
discussion.
Mark Hill (03:14):
Because candidly, the family members are doing what
they think is right andappropriate to protect their
relative and, you know, theydon't know what they don't know.
And they know that the table so
Shawn Weber (03:30):
well, and then there's you hit on this, there's
that profound sense of loss.
That becomes more acute, whenthere's an important holiday.
You know, you have those NormanRockwell pictures that people
have in their mind of whatChristmas is going to be like,
for example, and I'll be homefor Christmas. You can count on
(03:51):
this, except I'm gettingdivorced. I'm not really gonna
be home.
Mark Hill (03:56):
Yeah, well,
Peter Roussos (03:57):
it's actually is we're talking about this. I'm
thinking about the otherscenario that I've had just
numerous times over the yearswhere a couple has made the
decision to divorce. And thenthey decide that they they, you
know, they want their kids tohave one last holiday together.
And how and I understand thatintention. But they're not
(04:21):
necessarily doing their childrenany favors, if they can't carry
that off in a collaborative way.
Yes, right. It's complicated.
It's a really complicated thingto try to navigate, or this one
Shawn Weber (04:33):
that I actually saw on a case where they held it
together for the holidays. Andthen on New Year's Day, or
shortly thereafter, they brokeit to the kids, they were
getting a divorce. And thenthese kids, they were teenagers,
and they're like, Well, what itwas all the stuff we did at
Christmas where you justpretending was yeah, you know,
it actually made it much worsefor them. Yeah, so figuring out
(04:58):
the timing can be an issue. Youcan't do?
Mark Hill (05:00):
Absolutely somebody quoted me a saying from I can't
remember which language it was,but a foreign language was
basically comes down to sayingsome families only look good in
pictures. Interesting,interesting way to look at it in
terms of, you know, goingthrough the motions for a
(05:22):
holiday, you know? Yeah, yeah.
Shawn Weber (05:26):
Well, there's nothing wrong. Is there Pete
with getting divorced and thenstill spending the holidays
together?
Peter Roussos (05:31):
No, absolutely.
No, I appreciate you sayingthat, Shawn. Absolutely. But I
think part of what we're talkingabout is when when, when parents
because of their own, maybe it'sa sense of guilt about the
divorce or sense of fear howthat the children are going to
do that they try to enactsomething with, maybe the
(05:52):
intentions are right, but ifthey can't deliver, then it can
create this, I think differentkinds of confusion and pain on
the back end of it.
Shawn Weber (06:03):
And it's much worse to try to have the holidays
together and then be ready tokill each other. And
Peter Roussos (06:09):
yeah, yeah.
Shawn Weber (06:12):
Then just if you just had them separate. Yeah,
Peter Roussos (06:15):
you don't want Boxing Day to literally become
boxing, right? Yes. Yes, yeah.
Yeah.
Shawn Weber (06:23):
Boxing Day. Yeah.
Yeah. You're just you're justmaybe you're not fighting, but
it's just so tense and awful.
Yeah. Because kids aren't stupidthey can? Yeah. You know, I've
met with hundreds of kids overthe years talking about their
parents divorce. And I'd saymost of them will tell me Oh, we
(06:44):
weren't surprised. They were sorelieved when we heard from this
angle of getting divorce. Youknow that that's a very common
thing. And I think a lot oftimes, the parents are more
worried about the children, whenit's really their own feelings
that are kind of coming out. Wehave to keep it together for the
kids. And really, they got totry to keep it together for
themselves. And the kids reallywould benefit if you would just
(07:06):
be real. Yeah,
Mark Hill (07:07):
like the conversation we have around the house some
times, oh, the children. House,you talk to the children, they
go, we don't care where we live,we just want mom and dad to stop
screaming at each other. I'veliterally I've been I've heard
that, you know,
Shawn Weber (07:22):
the kids always do better than the parents.
Peter Roussos (07:28):
Yeah, it's interesting to think about it in
terms of you know, if the kidsare at an appropriate age, what
would it be like? Because itcould be, I think, profoundly
collaborative. If if parents ina position like that, where
they're not yet divorced, areable to sit down with the
children and have a veryappropriate conversation about
what's happening. And so let'stalk about the holidays, guys,
(07:50):
what would feel right to you,you know, would you like us to
celebrate it? Yeah, to be ableto have that kind of discussion.
Now, that requires a level ofcollaboration and cooperation
between the co-parents. And Ithink there's a certain amount
of, in some ways, grieving thateach person has to do or prep
work that each person has to doprior to being able to do that.
(08:15):
But it is I think, I've seen thethe consequences of of what it
looks like when right after theholidays, a divorce is announced
and kids are confused anddevastated or feel like it was a
bit of a bait and switch all ofthese things that I've heard
kids describe.
Mark Hill (08:35):
And kids really just want to know what the future is
going to look like, now they'regoing to have a relationship
with both parents. I mean, thatis, especially if they're
younger. And so giving, youknow, going through the motions
of a Thanksgiving and having itbe awkward and strange, with no
idea what's gonna happen downthe road, because you haven't
(08:56):
worked that parenting plan outyet. That I think is almost more
damaging. And just saying, Hey,we're doing something different
this year. Yeah. By the way, myson did complain one time that
he was required to have threeThanksgiving dinners, and he
wasn't going to eat the thirdone.
Shawn Weber (09:14):
Just gonna bring that up, Mark. I haven't had a
kid complain yet about havingtwo Christmases.
Mark Hill (09:19):
No my son's comment was that he
felt sorry for kids who weren'tdivorced because they only got
one Christmas.
Shawn Weber (09:26):
Right? I mean, the kids again, the kids are not
taking this as hard as theparents aren't I sometimes I get
parents that are fixated on theday, Christmas Day, or, you
know, I don't want to focus juston the Christian holidays, but
I'm just using this exampleChristmas day. You know, that
the day you know, and the kidsare fine. You know, I've even
(09:47):
seen Santa Claus go to twoseparate houses, he'll do that
you can make that happen. Wejust have to let them know.
Mark Hill (09:54):
And sometimes the traditions in the families work
with my ex wife. They didChristmas presents on Christmas
Eve, we await Christmas morning,it was easy to make that
transition, he'd go to his mom'sor to his grandma's on her side.
And then I go pick him up, orshe dropped him off on Christmas
morning.
Shawn Weber (10:13):
So when I meet with folks, I have them put a list
together of the holidays andspecial days that matter to
them. Yeah. And you'll you'llbe, you'll be amazed what
certain days come up, you know,like, they won't care about
Christmas so much, but SuperBowl Sunday. That was the day
that they had to make sure thatthey alternated from odd and
(10:33):
even years. You know, so ifthere's a day like that, that
really matters? Or maybe youdon't celebrate the Christian
holidays, it's the Jewishholidays, or it's something
else. Yeah. Just finding outwhat matters to the family. And
there are certain patterns thatwe see that are typical with
every family, but but somefamilies do it differently. And
then I'm surprised at whatmatters to them.
Peter Roussos (10:55):
So what are the I'm curious for you both legal
slash financial kinds ofchallenges that can arise around
holiday.
Mark Hill (11:08):
Well, Pete alluded to one is where they parents try to
out compete themselves to buy anicer presents for the kids. And
then, you know, they fight aboutit later. How dare you spend
$1,000 on Johnny's birthdaypresent or Christmas present,
you knew I was only going togive him something worth $100. I
(11:28):
mean, I'm for but that kind ofthing. You know, it's an
extension of the Disneyland dadconcept.
Shawn Weber (11:36):
Or here's here's a really gross one that I actually
experienced where a child toldme that the father said to the
child, I can't get you that xbox because I'm paying your
mother child support.
Peter Roussos (11:48):
Oh, wow.
Shawn Weber (11:49):
Wow. Right? We all just kind of go Ooh. That's not
something a kid needs to hear.
Even if it is true. Yeah. Youknow, you don't throw the other
parent under the bus. Or maybejust maybe you can talk to each
other about what presidents wewant to get the kids this year
is like you did when you weremarried, and what's coming up
with maybe we both get an X Box,and it says from mom and dad.
Mark Hill (12:15):
And I've seen another thing, I saw another thing to
where the kid was given aweapon. A teenage kid was given
a weapon. And the husband knewfull well wife did not approve
of weapons or guns in thehousehold. And it was like, just
in your face is exactly what itfelt like when I heard that
(12:35):
occurred.
Shawn Weber (12:38):
Well, and that's a thing, you know, values. You
know, some people are gunenthusiast, and some aren't.
Mark Hill (12:43):
Yep.
Shawn Weber (12:45):
Some people have different political
perspectives. Some people havedifferent religious perspective,
what if you have the crossreligion family where you have
one person that's Jewish andanother person that's Christian,
my mind immediately goes to oh,well, then all the Jewish
holidays are going to be withthe Jewish person and all the
Christian holidays will be withthe Christian person, but then I
find out well, you know, I'mJewish. But you know, that was a
(13:06):
tradition in our family. Andit's important I like to spend
Christmas with my children, eventhough I personally am Jewish.
Or I want to, you know, thePassover is wonderful. I want to
be part of a Seder. But then howdo you, you know, and then
people are like, Well, why areyou being so selfish? Are your
your Christian, why do you wantthe Jewish holidays, you have to
(13:27):
navigate that minefield. But ifpeople can talk to each other
and be kind of real honest aboutwhat matters to them. In a
mediation context, orcollaborative divorce context,
we're uniquely situated to beable to help them because the
default that court you know,you're asking about the
legalities B is just simplydivide the holidays, odd and
even years. And it usually endsup I've even seen courts divide
(13:51):
all holidays on the same day.
Mark Hill (13:53):
So they do that with Superbowl Sunday too
Shawn Weber (13:56):
be well, if you want.
Mark Hill (13:58):
I know. But it's not something that's on
their radar. And it's notsomething that normally her
knees would ask about or thatjudges would say, by the way, do
you care about Superbowl Sunday?
It
Shawn Weber (14:11):
would only come up event right up in the plains.
Peter Roussos (14:13):
I think it's this year, you get the Super Bowl
next year, you get the Pro Bowl.
That's
Mark Hill (14:19):
well, the flag football games. Yeah, that looks
like fun. Right?
Peter Roussos (14:24):
The you know, we're timing here. We're
thinking about the end of Yearholidays, Thanksgiving,
Christmas, New Year's Hanukkah.
Here's the other thing I foundmyself thinking about is I'm
curious for the two of you, theend of a calendar year can bring
a sense of pressure as itrelates to getting a divorce
process done, perhaps. Right, Ithink about tax implications and
(14:48):
things like that. What are thosekinds of what's your experience
of those kinds of pressures,then complicating the holiday
experience? does that play out?
Is that an issue, you find
Shawn Weber (15:02):
it play out just in people's mood. So you know, at
the end of the year, I get arush of people that want to get
divorced before the end of theyear, and for tax reasons or
whatever. And so we're rushingto get everything in before the
calendar year ends, and thenthat puts pressure on the
family. And then I've seen thatbleed into. I've seen parenting
(15:24):
issues just blow up. And Ialways feel like it's kind of
collateral damage is the resultof the increased pressure. The
other thing when I used tolitigate, I learned not to go on
vacation during the holidays.
Because my phone was ringing offthe hook with problems. Where
people wanted me to go to courtex parte for rhythm emergency
(15:46):
hearings, Oh, this isn'tworking. And now that I'm doing
things outside of court, we seethat a lot less because people
are being cooperative,collaborative, there's something
about a mediation process thatbrings out better behavior.
Whereas when it's a courtroom,kind of a situation, people are
adversarial anyway. And so thenwhat happens is it becomes a
(16:09):
zero sum game. Oh, well, if hegets five minutes on Christmas,
that means I'm losing fiveminutes on Christmas. You know,
that happens too. So yeah, Ithink I think legalities can or
just, we don't have as muchmoney. Yeah, because our cost of
living is less. And that'smaking us stressed about the
holidays. I mean, I've hadholidays, as a parent of five
(16:32):
kids, where we didn't have asmuch money as we did in the year
before. And it's stressful,because you want to have a nice
holiday experience for the kids.
Yeah,
Mark Hill (16:41):
I find that the the number of clients who want to
get divorced because they arethey want to file separate tax
returns is pretty small.
Generally, most cases, peopleare better off filing a joint
return, even if they, you know,everything's done, they will
wait till the beginning ofJanuary to file it so they can
file a joint return for thecurrent tax year. What I find is
(17:05):
that a lot of people just wantit done by the Mmm, it seems
like it's emotional. It's aguillotine, I want it cut off
here. I'm done with this, Ican't go into 2023 and still not
be divorced. That's what I see alot of.
Shawn Weber (17:22):
There's another thing January 1 through January
31. I call the divorce season.
And that is because people havemade their New Year's
resolutions to leave theirspouse, and they've made it
through the holidays, he made apass at your sister at
Thanksgiving, and you're done.
Or maybe you just didn't, youknow this, you're holding out
(17:44):
for the holidays, you know, andthen you can't handle it
anymore. And so you resolve, wetend to do that at the beginning
of the year, we're thinkingabout what we want to change in
our lives. And so the divorceattorneys phone rings off the
hook. And so I learned that thatis the time to I also don't
travel in January because I wantto be available to folks that
are going to call for businessreasons. Right. But also because
(18:05):
they need help.
Mark Hill (18:07):
I have a friendly amendment, Shawn.
Shawn Weber (18:09):
Yeah.
Mark Hill (18:10):
Take it through January. Sorry, February the
15th. Yeah, probably right.
Because Valentine's Day issometimes the straw that breaks
the camel's back. He didn't makeit special. And we
Shawn Weber (18:22):
did a podcast on that in an earlier podcast where
we, yeah, how you can screwValentine's Day up when the
divorce happens.
Mark Hill (18:31):
It's the final straw
Shawn Weber (18:33):
that broke the camel's back. Exactly.
Peter Roussos (18:36):
You said something, Shawn, a couple of
minutes ago that I want toexpand on because you're talking
about the importance of peoplebeing able to, to talk about
what's important to them. And Ithink the other aspect of that
kind of communication that Ithink is vital to really
increase the potential fordivorcing partners to be able
(18:58):
to, to be collaborative as theythink about the holidays is for
each person to be able to talkabout what's important to them.
And why why is it important? Ithink being able to articulate
the meaning behind it, why ithas that sense of importance,
that that does, I thinkincreased the potential and the
likelihood for people to beempathetic towards each other,
(19:22):
to be compassionate towards eachother to be generous towards
each other, particularly if theycan establish a kind of give and
take. You know, I think the thehealthiest divorces that we see
are those where both partnershave the sense that the other
person is willing to beconsiderate and empathic and
generous. They're willing to beflexible in order to accommodate
(19:43):
both parties operating that way,are able to to really, I think
create the healthiest possiblekinds of outcomes. And it's
interesting in the context ofwhat we're talking about. That's
also the kind of mindset inspirit that would allow divorce
Some partners to be together asco-parents celebrating holidays
(20:03):
with their kids together in thehealthiest way possible.
Shawn Weber (20:07):
I agree with that completely with one friendly
amendment. And that is a veryhigh conflict case. I found that
why tends to be more problematicbecause people start rehearsing
all the dysfunctions that wentwrong that got them here in the
first place. But for mostpeople, I think you're
absolutely correct. If it's nota super high conflict case, and
(20:29):
the the emotional functioning ison a normal level, we don't have
like personality disorders ordisordered thinking that's going
on. And I think the why is veryimportant, because it leads to
motivation, which helps peopleunderstand where you were might
coming from what's my interestin this? I think it's a very
important piece of disputeresolution, just understanding
where the other person's comingfrom. To me, because, you know,
(20:52):
sorry, Mark,
Mark Hill (20:53):
bringing the focus back to the children. Yeah,
that's very powerful around theholidays, because we always say,
you know, Christmas is for thekids or whatever. That's, you
see that in even in advertising.
So, so to take away from what doI feel like I'm losing to how
can we, we make sure we give thechildren what they need, I think
(21:16):
is a very powerful, you know, Ialways say I use the children
mercilessly in the divorce,because candidly, they're the
one thing that clients generallystill agree on. And, you know,
Shawn Weber (21:30):
I have had the case where they thought about who had
to take the kids at the holiday?
Like, no, I take them, I don'twant to deal with
Mark Hill (21:37):
it. Yeah,
Peter Roussos (21:39):
I don't like the timeshare. Right? Well, and it's
a huge you were talking Mark, Iwas thinking about what's the
experience, like for the two ofyou, when you realize that
you're dealing with, withdivorcing partners, who are so
at odds with each other, they'reunwilling or uncapable, of
(22:02):
focusing on the children.
Mark Hill (22:05):
And we do see that,
Shawn Weber (22:06):
you see that? Well, then I just make it about
proposals. Take the like I said,before I take the "why" out of
it, we're gonna care about whywho, what, where, when, how
never why, when it's a highconflict situation like that.
And then I make it aboutproposals, and it becomes a lot
like a, you know, you make thisproposal now I can counter
proposal and
Mark Hill (22:25):
so to do working with you, I've seen you do that. So
skillfully, when it's almostlike an attack from one spouse
to the other to go, I think Iheard a proposal and that, and
you pull out that, and then weare actually into a process that
can yield results, as opposed towell, if he's gonna say all that
I gotta get my licks in to,
Shawn Weber (22:46):
you know, people used to think by their magic
until you tell him that Isecrets. No, it's true. I mean,
a complaint is a proposal indisguise. Yeah, I've said that
before. And so a good mediator.
Good therapist, can reframe thecomplaint into a proposal? He
always does this or he, youknow, he never pays attention to
(23:09):
the children on Christmas Day.
So what you want is for him tobe available and pay attention
to the children on ChristmasDay. That's what you're looking
for. Yeah. Well, sir, are youwilling to be available and pay
attention to children Christmas?
You know, and then you can kindof and then what does that look
like? Well, what does payingattention to children mean to
(23:30):
you? Yeah. You know, go. Do it.
Like the Colombo approach whenyou're the practitioner is you
just keep drilling. In theColombo approach, just one more
thing? You know, it's one morequestion. Just and I'll play
dumb. I'll get real curious. Youknow, I don't understand. Okay,
so. So when you're at home, andit's Christmas time, what does?
(23:51):
What does it mean? If he'spaying attention to the kid?
would that look like to you?
What's happening now? What wouldbe different? You know, and just
really drill down?
Mark Hill (24:02):
Yeah, because it takes it away from the
complaint, and the bitterness inorder to try to have at least
identify what could change that.
And that's what you're makingthem do. They're sure,
Shawn Weber (24:15):
when you're helping, you're helping the
other party, see what theperson's interest is, you know,
it's like you're a translator.
You know, we see thesecomplaints and they're like, an
airplane that never lands is thesame complaint and they're not
hearing each other. And if youcan short circuit that and get
it so that they can hear it froma different a different way or a
different perspective, kind ofget them off of their usual
(24:37):
pattern. And then you can startyou know, then people when
people can see where she'scoming from, oh, I get it. She's
not just complaining about me.
She really just really wants thechildren to have me more
involved with them.
Peter Roussos (24:52):
It I think it's often also in some ways
unpacking I think a lot of thedynamic is often that actually
the partners understand eachother, quite clearly. But they
do not agree. And so what lookslike a lack of understanding is
really I'm not going tostipulate to that. I don't have
(25:12):
a positioning. Yeah. And sobeing able to unpack and I think
related to the complaint withinthe complaint is a proposal or
the kind of absolute languagethat we'll hear clients use the
other thing that people areoften way more comfortable,
articulating is what they don'twant. So how to take that and
(25:33):
recast that into
Mark Hill (25:35):
what they don't want the other person to do.
Shawn Weber (25:38):
What I want is for him to not.
And that's another approach thata practitioner can use is to,
instead of turning it into arule, he will someone said will
not do X, you turn it into avalue. It is important to me
(25:59):
that the children have bothparents available to them during
the holidays. Okay, well, whatdoes that look like regarding
the father of your children, itwill be very important for him
to be available and payattention to the children during
the holiday. Right. So I mean,that that the value instead of I
(26:19):
don't want him to just watchthis football game. You know,
instead of a rule of a don't, itbecomes a do.
Peter Roussos (26:28):
And I think for so many of those things, when
when we cast them in that kindof language, most of the time,
they absolutely agree thatthat's important. Yeah.
Shawn Weber (26:39):
Yeah, and the holidays are one of those things
that are just, it goes to thecore of what's hard with
divorce. And that is thatthere's a sense that the family
is broken, the traditions arelost, that opportunities are
lost, there's the grief of whatcould be you know,
Mark Hill (26:57):
so you know, the, I think, communicate, is the first
thing out of the box that Iwould say, communicate, don't be
so scared of the upcomingholidays, that you don't want to
talk about it because they'regoing to come inexorably,
they're on the way. So just Idon't want to deal with him or
her around this. But thensuddenly, it will be the week
(27:20):
before Thanksgiving, and peopleare getting invitations. And
what why did, why are we doingthis? So communicate early. And
really now is the time
Shawn Weber (27:32):
and focus on the children.
Mark Hill (27:33):
Yep.
Shawn Weber (27:36):
And another piece that I pulled from that is,
recognize and be okay, with,there's a loss that you're
experiencing. And that that'sokay. And recognize where your
grief doesn't necessarilyoverlap with what your children
are experiencing.
Peter Roussos (27:56):
I think, you know, part of the, the theme
that we're talking about isresiliency to what can people do
in terms of their self care,just to be able to maintain
their sense of of, of behavior,being appropriate, being
respectful, being considerate.
So self care is really importantholidays, drinking, being
(28:17):
careful about alcoholconsumption, those kinds of
things for people to be tuninginto. You know, we've talked
before about the importance of amission statement for couples
that are going through a divorceprocess and the vision that they
have for how they want to getthrough it, what they want to
arrive at on the other side, Ithink using that same kind of
(28:38):
process for defining how theywant this holiday period to go,
being able to talk with eachother about what they want this
experience to be for themselvesfor the children, depending on
the ages of the kids to theextent to which they talk with
the children about that.
Shawn Weber (28:55):
Yeah, and a corollary to that being willing
to be flexible. Yeah. You know,it may not be the way the Norman
Rockwell painting portrayed itbut it can still be a wonderful
holiday. And be flexible, bewilling to compromise and don't
be rigid. And you're more thanlikely to have success of the
(29:20):
holidays. I do like what yousaid about self care that I just
kind of came back to that in myhead. I did. You know, you hear
the statistic the statistic thatsuicides increased during the
holidays and I think there's areason for that. And I think
suicides also increased duringdivorces. Yeah, depression at
least does. So that's self care.
Make sure you're okay and iffrankly if you if you if you
(29:47):
find that you're not okay,that's why you should hire
people like Pete
Peter Roussos (29:54):
asked for help.
Absolutely. For help, right.
Yeah. I think the holidays thesekinds of special times and If
they intensify, either theanticipatory grief process if
people are on the front end of adivorce process, and then post
divorce, there's this differentlevel and kind of grief that
(30:15):
people have to go through asthey go through this year first,
and they're adjusting to thepost divorce lifestyle and what
that means for them visa vie therelationships with their
children and family members, allof that there's a lot of loss
associated with those kinds ofchanges in ritual.
Mark Hill (30:35):
Yes, you know, I have had the reported because I
seldom meet with the childrenindividually, but children's
saying things like, Well, what'sgoing to happen with all our
traditions, all the things wealways do? What are we going to
go get pumpkins? Are we goingto, you know, who's are we going
to go to grandma's? As we alwaysdo for Thanksgiving? You know,
(30:57):
sometimes the parents just don'tknow. And but, but that helps
inform the conversation, asking,What do you think your children
are going to experience here?
That does two things. One is itgets us the information in order
to be able to work with them.
But it also has the focus backon the children away from what
their concerns are. Yeah.
Shawn Weber (31:18):
Well, that's a lot isn't it?
Mark Hill (31:23):
It is yeah
Shawn Weber (31:24):
And again, be willing to cut yourself some
slack. Be flexible, ask for helpwhen you need it.
Peter Roussos (31:33):
And don't over clove the pumpkin pie for crying
out loud. Okay. Right.
Shawn Weber (31:41):
But, you know, there's a debate in our
household whether it's cool whipcream,
Peter Roussos (31:47):
why does it have to be either or
Shawn Weber (31:52):
reject the binary.
Mark Hill (31:54):
Englishman. What is this obsession with pumpkin pie?
I mean, I ate it once. And Ithought, okay, there's apple
here. I'm gonna go with theapple. And
Shawn Weber (32:03):
you know what, though? We've had English food
and
Mark Hill (32:07):
Yeah, but that was decades ago before Gordon
Ramset. Shut up.
Shawn Weber (32:11):
My daughter is obsessed with Great British Bake
Off.
Mark Hill (32:15):
I some peope are, yes.
Shawn Weber (32:17):
I don't understand why you'd have to go to a
beautiful, lovely estate andthen cook everything in a tent
outside. I understood thatthat's for Yeah, well,
Mark Hill (32:27):
colonial thinking, What can I tell you?
Shawn Weber (32:30):
Like the Renaissance Festival? We're
going to do it a tent, and thenafterwards, they'll be jousting.
Anyway, all right, well, Mark ifthey want to talk to you about
their money, as it relates tothe holidays and divorce and
other things, what should theydo?
Mark Hill (32:48):
Look for my website Pacific divorce management is
the company the website is dubdub dub, Pacdivorce.com, Pac di,
V, O, R, C,
Shawn Weber (32:59):
and P. Their feeling down? They need some
help. With the grief and thestruggles of divorce and the
year of first what should theydo?
Peter Roussos (33:07):
Easiest way to reach me is also through my
website Peter Russo's dot com.
PE te R. I'm sorry, I'm startingmy email addressed by Peter
rousseff.com, peterroussos.com.
Shawn Weber (33:25):
And if you want to deal with your dispute, from a
legal standpoint, go to Weberdispute resolution.com Again,
that'sWeberDisputeResolution.com
That's Weber with a with one blike the grill. Alright guys,
well, happy holidays.
Peter Roussos (33:43):
Yeah.
Shawn Weber (33:46):
Thanks for listening to another episode of
the three Wiseman divorce,money, Psych, and law. If you
liked what you heard, be sure tosubscribe. Leave us a review and
share with others who may be ina similar place. Until next
time, stay safe, healthy andfocused on a positive, bright
future. This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
(34:10):
Every family law case is unique.
So no legal, financial or mentalhealth advice is intended during
this podcast. If you need helpwith your specific situation,
feel free to schedule a time tospeak with one of us for a
personal consultation.
As an Englishman, what is this obsession with
pumpkin pie? I mean, I ate itonce and I thought, okay,
there's apple here. I'm gonna gowith the apple and
Shawn Weber (00:10):
You know what though, we've had English food
Welcome to the three wise men ofdivorce, money, Psych, and law
podcast. Sit down with theCalifornia divorce experts
financial divorce consultantMark Hill, marriage and family
therapist, Pete Russo's andattorney Shawn Weber. For a
(00:33):
frank and casual conversationabout divorce, separation, co
parenting and the difficultdecisions, real people like you
face during these tough times.
We know that if you are lookingat divorce or separation, it can
be scary and overwhelming. Withcombined experience of over 60
years of divorce and conflictmanagement, we are here for you
and look forward to help bysharing our unique ideas,
(00:54):
thoughts and perspectives ondivorce, separation, and co
parenting.
Mark Hill (01:05):
So, Shawn, the holidays are coming up,
Shawn Weber (01:10):
that they are
Mark Hill (01:11):
Pete, do people ever get kind of concerned about this
when divorce is in the air, whenwhen the holidays are coming up,
and they've traditionally donethings in certain ways. And they
wonder how they're changingcircumstances with their spouse
might impact this.
Peter Roussos (01:27):
So I think every single time this is, you know,
the the year I think of the yearof firsts that for families that
are going through a divorce, andwhat's it like to go through
that first holiday season? Andparticularly if the decision to
divorce is is, you know,relatively recent. And the CO
(01:48):
parents are trying to figure outdo you celebrate the holidays
together? What's going to bebetter for the kids? You know,
that that first holiday period?
If a if a co parenting pant planis in place, and the holidays
have been outlined and scheduledand divided? What's it like for
the parent who is going forthrough the first Thanksgiving
(02:09):
that they have gone throughwithout their kids? There's just
so much stuff around theholidays? Yeah.
Shawn Weber (02:17):
I mean, there's a lot I've seen people do it
different ways, or they're indifferent stages of their
divorce, like the people thatare just barely starting. Maybe
they haven't told the kid sothen they do Christmas together,
ironically, together, andthey're pretending that we're
all happy family.
Mark Hill (02:33):
And the worry they have about family members.
They've told about this. Sowe're going to have a couple of
drinks and or even attack thespouse over what they've heard.
You know, there's camps beingestablished. Oh, yeah. Yeah,
I've seen
Shawn Weber (02:49):
one thing I've learned in divorce is Blood is
thicker than water. Yeah, yeah.
And people when they hearthere's a divorce, the automatic
tendency is to divide into campsand circle around your relative.
But yeah, if you I mean, that'sa whole other podcast we could
probably do is talking toextended family about how to how
you want to divorce and how youwant to be a whole other
(03:11):
discussion.
Mark Hill (03:14):
Because candidly, the family members are doing what
they think is right andappropriate to protect their
relative and, you know, theydon't know what they don't know.
And they know that the table so
Shawn Weber (03:30):
well, and then there's you hit on this, there's
that profound sense of loss.
That becomes more acute, whenthere's an important holiday.
You know, you have those NormanRockwell pictures that people
have in their mind of whatChristmas is going to be like,
for example, and I'll be homefor Christmas. You can count on
(03:51):
this, except I'm gettingdivorced. I'm not really gonna
be home.
Mark Hill (03:56):
Yeah, well,
Peter Roussos (03:57):
it's actually is we're talking about this. I'm
thinking about the otherscenario that I've had just
numerous times over the yearswhere a couple has made the
decision to divorce. And thenthey decide that they they, you
know, they want their kids tohave one last holiday together.
And how and I understand thatintention. But they're not
(04:21):
necessarily doing their childrenany favors, if they can't carry
that off in a collaborative way.
Yes, right. It's complicated.
It's a really complicated thingto try to navigate, or this one
Shawn Weber (04:33):
that I actually saw on a case where they held it
together for the holidays. Andthen on New Year's Day, or
shortly thereafter, they brokeit to the kids, they were
getting a divorce. And thenthese kids, they were teenagers,
and they're like, Well, what itwas all the stuff we did at
Christmas where you justpretending was yeah, you know,
it actually made it much worsefor them. Yeah, so figuring out
(04:58):
the timing can be an issue. Youcan't do?
Mark Hill (05:00):
Absolutely somebody quoted me a saying from I can't
remember which language it was,but a foreign language was
basically comes down to sayingsome families only look good in
pictures. Interesting,interesting way to look at it in
terms of, you know, goingthrough the motions for a
(05:22):
holiday, you know? Yeah, yeah.
Shawn Weber (05:26):
Well, there's nothing wrong. Is there Pete
with getting divorced and thenstill spending the holidays
together?
Peter Roussos (05:31):
No, absolutely.
No, I appreciate you sayingthat, Shawn. Absolutely. But I
think part of what we're talkingabout is when when, when parents
because of their own, maybe it'sa sense of guilt about the
divorce or sense of fear howthat the children are going to
do that they try to enactsomething with, maybe the
(05:52):
intentions are right, but ifthey can't deliver, then it can
create this, I think differentkinds of confusion and pain on
the back end of it.
Shawn Weber (06:03):
And it's much worse to try to have the holidays
together and then be ready tokill each other. And
Peter Roussos (06:09):
yeah, yeah.
Shawn Weber (06:12):
Then just if you just had them separate. Yeah,
Peter Roussos (06:15):
you don't want Boxing Day to literally become
boxing, right? Yes. Yes, yeah.
Yeah.
Shawn Weber (06:23):
Boxing Day. Yeah.
Yeah. You're just you're justmaybe you're not fighting, but
it's just so tense and awful.
Yeah. Because kids aren't stupidthey can? Yeah. You know, I've
met with hundreds of kids overthe years talking about their
parents divorce. And I'd saymost of them will tell me Oh, we
(06:44):
weren't surprised. They were sorelieved when we heard from this
angle of getting divorce. Youknow that that's a very common
thing. And I think a lot oftimes, the parents are more
worried about the children, whenit's really their own feelings
that are kind of coming out. Wehave to keep it together for the
kids. And really, they got totry to keep it together for
themselves. And the kids reallywould benefit if you would just
(07:06):
be real. Yeah,
Mark Hill (07:07):
like the conversation we have around the house some
times, oh, the children. House,you talk to the children, they
go, we don't care where we live,we just want mom and dad to stop
screaming at each other. I'veliterally I've been I've heard
that, you know,
Shawn Weber (07:22):
the kids always do better than the parents.
Peter Roussos (07:28):
Yeah, it's interesting to think about it in
terms of you know, if the kidsare at an appropriate age, what
would it be like? Because itcould be, I think, profoundly
collaborative. If if parents ina position like that, where
they're not yet divorced, areable to sit down with the
children and have a veryappropriate conversation about
what's happening. And so let'stalk about the holidays, guys,
(07:50):
what would feel right to you,you know, would you like us to
celebrate it? Yeah, to be ableto have that kind of discussion.
Now, that requires a level ofcollaboration and cooperation
between the co-parents. And Ithink there's a certain amount
of, in some ways, grieving thateach person has to do or prep
work that each person has to doprior to being able to do that.
(08:15):
But it is I think, I've seen thethe consequences of of what it
looks like when right after theholidays, a divorce is announced
and kids are confused anddevastated or feel like it was a
bit of a bait and switch all ofthese things that I've heard
kids describe.
Mark Hill (08:35):
And kids really just want to know what the future is
going to look like, now they'regoing to have a relationship
with both parents. I mean, thatis, especially if they're
younger. And so giving, youknow, going through the motions
of a Thanksgiving and having itbe awkward and strange, with no
idea what's gonna happen downthe road, because you haven't
(08:56):
worked that parenting plan outyet. That I think is almost more
damaging. And just saying, Hey,we're doing something different
this year. Yeah. By the way, myson did complain one time that
he was required to have threeThanksgiving dinners, and he
wasn't going to eat the thirdone.
Shawn Weber (09:14):
Just gonna bring that up, Mark. I haven't had a
kid complain yet about havingtwo Christmases.
Mark Hill (09:19):
No my son's comment was that he
felt sorry for kids who weren'tdivorced because they only got
one Christmas.
Shawn Weber (09:26):
Right? I mean, the kids again, the kids are not
taking this as hard as theparents aren't I sometimes I get
parents that are fixated on theday, Christmas Day, or, you
know, I don't want to focus juston the Christian holidays, but
I'm just using this exampleChristmas day. You know, that
the day you know, and the kidsare fine. You know, I've even
(09:47):
seen Santa Claus go to twoseparate houses, he'll do that
you can make that happen. Wejust have to let them know.
Mark Hill (09:54):
And sometimes the traditions in the families work
with my ex wife. They didChristmas presents on Christmas
Eve, we await Christmas morning,it was easy to make that
transition, he'd go to his mom'sor to his grandma's on her side.
And then I go pick him up, orshe dropped him off on Christmas
morning.
Shawn Weber (10:13):
So when I meet with folks, I have them put a list
together of the holidays andspecial days that matter to
them. Yeah. And you'll you'llbe, you'll be amazed what
certain days come up, you know,like, they won't care about
Christmas so much, but SuperBowl Sunday. That was the day
that they had to make sure thatthey alternated from odd and
(10:33):
even years. You know, so ifthere's a day like that, that
really matters? Or maybe youdon't celebrate the Christian
holidays, it's the Jewishholidays, or it's something
else. Yeah. Just finding outwhat matters to the family. And
there are certain patterns thatwe see that are typical with
every family, but but somefamilies do it differently. And
then I'm surprised at whatmatters to them.
Peter Roussos (10:55):
So what are the I'm curious for you both legal
slash financial kinds ofchallenges that can arise around
holiday.
Mark Hill (11:08):
Well, Pete alluded to one is where they parents try to
out compete themselves to buy anicer presents for the kids. And
then, you know, they fight aboutit later. How dare you spend
$1,000 on Johnny's birthdaypresent or Christmas present,
you knew I was only going togive him something worth $100. I
(11:28):
mean, I'm for but that kind ofthing. You know, it's an
extension of the Disneyland dadconcept.
Shawn Weber (11:36):
Or here's here's a really gross one that I actually
experienced where a child toldme that the father said to the
child, I can't get you that xbox because I'm paying your
mother child support.
Peter Roussos (11:48):
Oh, wow.
Shawn Weber (11:49):
Wow. Right? We all just kind of go Ooh. That's not
something a kid needs to hear.
Even if it is true. Yeah. Youknow, you don't throw the other
parent under the bus. Or maybejust maybe you can talk to each
other about what presidents wewant to get the kids this year
is like you did when you weremarried, and what's coming up
with maybe we both get an X Box,and it says from mom and dad.
Mark Hill (12:15):
And I've seen another thing, I saw another thing to
where the kid was given aweapon. A teenage kid was given
a weapon. And the husband knewfull well wife did not approve
of weapons or guns in thehousehold. And it was like, just
in your face is exactly what itfelt like when I heard that
(12:35):
occurred.
Shawn Weber (12:38):
Well, and that's a thing, you know, values. You
know, some people are gunenthusiast, and some aren't.
Mark Hill (12:43):
Yep.
Shawn Weber (12:45):
Some people have different political
perspectives. Some people havedifferent religious perspective,
what if you have the crossreligion family where you have
one person that's Jewish andanother person that's Christian,
my mind immediately goes to oh,well, then all the Jewish
holidays are going to be withthe Jewish person and all the
Christian holidays will be withthe Christian person, but then I
find out well, you know, I'mJewish. But you know, that was a
(13:06):
tradition in our family. Andit's important I like to spend
Christmas with my children, eventhough I personally am Jewish.
Or I want to, you know, thePassover is wonderful. I want to
be part of a Seder. But then howdo you, you know, and then
people are like, Well, why areyou being so selfish? Are your
your Christian, why do you wantthe Jewish holidays, you have to
(13:27):
navigate that minefield. But ifpeople can talk to each other
and be kind of real honest aboutwhat matters to them. In a
mediation context, orcollaborative divorce context,
we're uniquely situated to beable to help them because the
default that court you know,you're asking about the
legalities B is just simplydivide the holidays, odd and
even years. And it usually endsup I've even seen courts divide
(13:51):
all holidays on the same day.
Mark Hill (13:53):
So they do that with Superbowl Sunday too
Shawn Weber (13:56):
be well, if you want.
Mark Hill (13:58):
I know. But it's not something that's on
their radar. And it's notsomething that normally her
knees would ask about or thatjudges would say, by the way, do
you care about Superbowl Sunday?
It
Shawn Weber (14:11):
would only come up event right up in the plains.
Peter Roussos (14:13):
I think it's this year, you get the Super Bowl
next year, you get the Pro Bowl.
That's
Mark Hill (14:19):
well, the flag football games. Yeah, that looks
like fun. Right?
Peter Roussos (14:24):
The you know, we're timing here. We're
thinking about the end of Yearholidays, Thanksgiving,
Christmas, New Year's Hanukkah.
Here's the other thing I foundmyself thinking about is I'm
curious for the two of you, theend of a calendar year can bring
a sense of pressure as itrelates to getting a divorce
process done, perhaps. Right, Ithink about tax implications and
(14:48):
things like that. What are thosekinds of what's your experience
of those kinds of pressures,then complicating the holiday
experience? does that play out?
Is that an issue, you find
Shawn Weber (15:02):
it play out just in people's mood. So you know, at
the end of the year, I get arush of people that want to get
divorced before the end of theyear, and for tax reasons or
whatever. And so we're rushingto get everything in before the
calendar year ends, and thenthat puts pressure on the
family. And then I've seen thatbleed into. I've seen parenting
(15:24):
issues just blow up. And Ialways feel like it's kind of
collateral damage is the resultof the increased pressure. The
other thing when I used tolitigate, I learned not to go on
vacation during the holidays.
Because my phone was ringing offthe hook with problems. Where
people wanted me to go to courtex parte for rhythm emergency
(15:46):
hearings, Oh, this isn'tworking. And now that I'm doing
things outside of court, we seethat a lot less because people
are being cooperative,collaborative, there's something
about a mediation process thatbrings out better behavior.
Whereas when it's a courtroom,kind of a situation, people are
adversarial anyway. And so thenwhat happens is it becomes a
(16:09):
zero sum game. Oh, well, if hegets five minutes on Christmas,
that means I'm losing fiveminutes on Christmas. You know,
that happens too. So yeah, Ithink I think legalities can or
just, we don't have as muchmoney. Yeah, because our cost of
living is less. And that'smaking us stressed about the
holidays. I mean, I've hadholidays, as a parent of five
(16:32):
kids, where we didn't have asmuch money as we did in the year
before. And it's stressful,because you want to have a nice
holiday experience for the kids.
Yeah,
Mark Hill (16:41):
I find that the the number of clients who want to
get divorced because they arethey want to file separate tax
returns is pretty small.
Generally, most cases, peopleare better off filing a joint
return, even if they, you know,everything's done, they will
wait till the beginning ofJanuary to file it so they can
file a joint return for thecurrent tax year. What I find is
(17:05):
that a lot of people just wantit done by the Mmm, it seems
like it's emotional. It's aguillotine, I want it cut off
here. I'm done with this, Ican't go into 2023 and still not
be divorced. That's what I see alot of.
Shawn Weber (17:22):
There's another thing January 1 through January
31. I call the divorce season.
And that is because people havemade their New Year's
resolutions to leave theirspouse, and they've made it
through the holidays, he made apass at your sister at
Thanksgiving, and you're done.
Or maybe you just didn't, youknow this, you're holding out
(17:44):
for the holidays, you know, andthen you can't handle it
anymore. And so you resolve, wetend to do that at the beginning
of the year, we're thinkingabout what we want to change in
our lives. And so the divorceattorneys phone rings off the
hook. And so I learned that thatis the time to I also don't
travel in January because I wantto be available to folks that
are going to call for businessreasons. Right. But also because
(18:05):
they need help.
Mark Hill (18:07):
I have a friendly amendment, Shawn.
Shawn Weber (18:09):
Yeah.
Mark Hill (18:10):
Take it through January. Sorry, February the
15th. Yeah, probably right.
Because Valentine's Day issometimes the straw that breaks
the camel's back. He didn't makeit special. And we
Shawn Weber (18:22):
did a podcast on that in an earlier podcast where
we, yeah, how you can screwValentine's Day up when the
divorce happens.
Mark Hill (18:31):
It's the final straw
Shawn Weber (18:33):
that broke the camel's back. Exactly.
Peter Roussos (18:36):
You said something, Shawn, a couple of
minutes ago that I want toexpand on because you're talking
about the importance of peoplebeing able to, to talk about
what's important to them. And Ithink the other aspect of that
kind of communication that Ithink is vital to really
increase the potential fordivorcing partners to be able
(18:58):
to, to be collaborative as theythink about the holidays is for
each person to be able to talkabout what's important to them.
And why why is it important? Ithink being able to articulate
the meaning behind it, why ithas that sense of importance,
that that does, I thinkincreased the potential and the
likelihood for people to beempathetic towards each other,
(19:22):
to be compassionate towards eachother to be generous towards
each other, particularly if theycan establish a kind of give and
take. You know, I think the thehealthiest divorces that we see
are those where both partnershave the sense that the other
person is willing to beconsiderate and empathic and
generous. They're willing to beflexible in order to accommodate
(19:43):
both parties operating that way,are able to to really, I think
create the healthiest possiblekinds of outcomes. And it's
interesting in the context ofwhat we're talking about. That's
also the kind of mindset inspirit that would allow divorce
Some partners to be together asco-parents celebrating holidays
(20:03):
with their kids together in thehealthiest way possible.
Shawn Weber (20:07):
I agree with that completely with one friendly
amendment. And that is a veryhigh conflict case. I found that
why tends to be more problematicbecause people start rehearsing
all the dysfunctions that wentwrong that got them here in the
first place. But for mostpeople, I think you're
absolutely correct. If it's nota super high conflict case, and
(20:29):
the the emotional functioning ison a normal level, we don't have
like personality disorders ordisordered thinking that's going
on. And I think the why is veryimportant, because it leads to
motivation, which helps peopleunderstand where you were might
coming from what's my interestin this? I think it's a very
important piece of disputeresolution, just understanding
where the other person's comingfrom. To me, because, you know,
(20:52):
sorry, Mark,
Mark Hill (20:53):
bringing the focus back to the children. Yeah,
that's very powerful around theholidays, because we always say,
you know, Christmas is for thekids or whatever. That's, you
see that in even in advertising.
So, so to take away from what doI feel like I'm losing to how
can we, we make sure we give thechildren what they need, I think
(21:16):
is a very powerful, you know, Ialways say I use the children
mercilessly in the divorce,because candidly, they're the
one thing that clients generallystill agree on. And, you know,
Shawn Weber (21:30):
I have had the case where they thought about who had
to take the kids at the holiday?
Like, no, I take them, I don'twant to deal with
Mark Hill (21:37):
it. Yeah,
Peter Roussos (21:39):
I don't like the timeshare. Right? Well, and it's
a huge you were talking Mark, Iwas thinking about what's the
experience, like for the two ofyou, when you realize that
you're dealing with, withdivorcing partners, who are so
at odds with each other, they'reunwilling or uncapable, of
(22:02):
focusing on the children.
Mark Hill (22:05):
And we do see that,
Shawn Weber (22:06):
you see that? Well, then I just make it about
proposals. Take the like I said,before I take the "why" out of
it, we're gonna care about whywho, what, where, when, how
never why, when it's a highconflict situation like that.
And then I make it aboutproposals, and it becomes a lot
like a, you know, you make thisproposal now I can counter
proposal and
Mark Hill (22:25):
so to do working with you, I've seen you do that. So
skillfully, when it's almostlike an attack from one spouse
to the other to go, I think Iheard a proposal and that, and
you pull out that, and then weare actually into a process that
can yield results, as opposed towell, if he's gonna say all that
I gotta get my licks in to,
Shawn Weber (22:46):
you know, people used to think by their magic
until you tell him that Isecrets. No, it's true. I mean,
a complaint is a proposal indisguise. Yeah, I've said that
before. And so a good mediator.
Good therapist, can reframe thecomplaint into a proposal? He
always does this or he, youknow, he never pays attention to
(23:09):
the children on Christmas Day.
So what you want is for him tobe available and pay attention
to the children on ChristmasDay. That's what you're looking
for. Yeah. Well, sir, are youwilling to be available and pay
attention to children Christmas?
You know, and then you can kindof and then what does that look
like? Well, what does payingattention to children mean to
(23:30):
you? Yeah. You know, go. Do it.
Like the Colombo approach whenyou're the practitioner is you
just keep drilling. In theColombo approach, just one more
thing? You know, it's one morequestion. Just and I'll play
dumb. I'll get real curious. Youknow, I don't understand. Okay,
so. So when you're at home, andit's Christmas time, what does?
(23:51):
What does it mean? If he'spaying attention to the kid?
would that look like to you?
What's happening now? What wouldbe different? You know, and just
really drill down?
Mark Hill (24:02):
Yeah, because it takes it away from the
complaint, and the bitterness inorder to try to have at least
identify what could change that.
And that's what you're makingthem do. They're sure,
Shawn Weber (24:15):
when you're helping, you're helping the
other party, see what theperson's interest is, you know,
it's like you're a translator.
You know, we see thesecomplaints and they're like, an
airplane that never lands is thesame complaint and they're not
hearing each other. And if youcan short circuit that and get
it so that they can hear it froma different a different way or a
different perspective, kind ofget them off of their usual
(24:37):
pattern. And then you can startyou know, then people when
people can see where she'scoming from, oh, I get it. She's
not just complaining about me.
She really just really wants thechildren to have me more
involved with them.
Peter Roussos (24:52):
It I think it's often also in some ways
unpacking I think a lot of thedynamic is often that actually
the partners understand eachother, quite clearly. But they
do not agree. And so what lookslike a lack of understanding is
really I'm not going tostipulate to that. I don't have
(25:12):
a positioning. Yeah. And sobeing able to unpack and I think
related to the complaint withinthe complaint is a proposal or
the kind of absolute languagethat we'll hear clients use the
other thing that people areoften way more comfortable,
articulating is what they don'twant. So how to take that and
(25:33):
recast that into
Mark Hill (25:35):
what they don't want the other person to do.
Shawn Weber (25:38):
What I want is for him to not.
And that's another approach thata practitioner can use is to,
instead of turning it into arule, he will someone said will
not do X, you turn it into avalue. It is important to me
(25:59):
that the children have bothparents available to them during
the holidays. Okay, well, whatdoes that look like regarding
the father of your children, itwill be very important for him
to be available and payattention to the children during
the holiday. Right. So I mean,that that the value instead of I
(26:19):
don't want him to just watchthis football game. You know,
instead of a rule of a don't, itbecomes a do.
Peter Roussos (26:28):
And I think for so many of those things, when
when we cast them in that kindof language, most of the time,
they absolutely agree thatthat's important. Yeah.
Shawn Weber (26:39):
Yeah, and the holidays are one of those things
that are just, it goes to thecore of what's hard with
divorce. And that is thatthere's a sense that the family
is broken, the traditions arelost, that opportunities are
lost, there's the grief of whatcould be you know,
Mark Hill (26:57):
so you know, the, I think, communicate, is the first
thing out of the box that Iwould say, communicate, don't be
so scared of the upcomingholidays, that you don't want to
talk about it because they'regoing to come inexorably,
they're on the way. So just Idon't want to deal with him or
her around this. But thensuddenly, it will be the week
(27:20):
before Thanksgiving, and peopleare getting invitations. And
what why did, why are we doingthis? So communicate early. And
really now is the time
Shawn Weber (27:32):
and focus on the children.
Mark Hill (27:33):
Yep.
Shawn Weber (27:36):
And another piece that I pulled from that is,
recognize and be okay, with,there's a loss that you're
experiencing. And that that'sokay. And recognize where your
grief doesn't necessarilyoverlap with what your children
are experiencing.
Peter Roussos (27:56):
I think, you know, part of the, the theme
that we're talking about isresiliency to what can people do
in terms of their self care,just to be able to maintain
their sense of of, of behavior,being appropriate, being
respectful, being considerate.
So self care is really importantholidays, drinking, being
(28:17):
careful about alcoholconsumption, those kinds of
things for people to be tuninginto. You know, we've talked
before about the importance of amission statement for couples
that are going through a divorceprocess and the vision that they
have for how they want to getthrough it, what they want to
arrive at on the other side, Ithink using that same kind of
(28:38):
process for defining how theywant this holiday period to go,
being able to talk with eachother about what they want this
experience to be for themselvesfor the children, depending on
the ages of the kids to theextent to which they talk with
the children about that.
Shawn Weber (28:55):
Yeah, and a corollary to that being willing
to be flexible. Yeah. You know,it may not be the way the Norman
Rockwell painting portrayed itbut it can still be a wonderful
holiday. And be flexible, bewilling to compromise and don't
be rigid. And you're more thanlikely to have success of the
(29:20):
holidays. I do like what yousaid about self care that I just
kind of came back to that in myhead. I did. You know, you hear
the statistic the statistic thatsuicides increased during the
holidays and I think there's areason for that. And I think
suicides also increased duringdivorces. Yeah, depression at
least does. So that's self care.
Make sure you're okay and iffrankly if you if you if you
(29:47):
find that you're not okay,that's why you should hire
people like Pete
Peter Roussos (29:54):
asked for help.
Absolutely. For help, right.
Yeah. I think the holidays thesekinds of special times and If
they intensify, either theanticipatory grief process if
people are on the front end of adivorce process, and then post
divorce, there's this differentlevel and kind of grief that
(30:15):
people have to go through asthey go through this year first,
and they're adjusting to thepost divorce lifestyle and what
that means for them visa vie therelationships with their
children and family members, allof that there's a lot of loss
associated with those kinds ofchanges in ritual.
Mark Hill (30:35):
Yes, you know, I have had the reported because I
seldom meet with the childrenindividually, but children's
saying things like, Well, what'sgoing to happen with all our
traditions, all the things wealways do? What are we going to
go get pumpkins? Are we goingto, you know, who's are we going
to go to grandma's? As we alwaysdo for Thanksgiving? You know,
(30:57):
sometimes the parents just don'tknow. And but, but that helps
inform the conversation, asking,What do you think your children
are going to experience here?
That does two things. One is itgets us the information in order
to be able to work with them.
But it also has the focus backon the children away from what
their concerns are. Yeah.
Shawn Weber (31:18):
Well, that's a lot isn't it?
Mark Hill (31:23):
It is yeah
Shawn Weber (31:24):
And again, be willing to cut yourself some
slack. Be flexible, ask for helpwhen you need it.
Peter Roussos (31:33):
And don't over clove the pumpkin pie for crying
out loud. Okay. Right.
Shawn Weber (31:41):
But, you know, there's a debate in our
household whether it's cool whipcream,
Peter Roussos (31:47):
why does it have to be either or
Shawn Weber (31:52):
reject the binary.
Mark Hill (31:54):
Englishman. What is this obsession with pumpkin pie?
I mean, I ate it once. And Ithought, okay, there's apple
here. I'm gonna go with theapple. And
Shawn Weber (32:03):
you know what, though? We've had English food
and
Mark Hill (32:07):
Yeah, but that was decades ago before Gordon
Ramset. Shut up.
Shawn Weber (32:11):
My daughter is obsessed with Great British Bake
Off.
Mark Hill (32:15):
I some peope are, yes.
Shawn Weber (32:17):
I don't understand why you'd have to go to a
beautiful, lovely estate andthen cook everything in a tent
outside. I understood thatthat's for Yeah, well,
Mark Hill (32:27):
colonial thinking, What can I tell you?
Shawn Weber (32:30):
Like the Renaissance Festival? We're
going to do it a tent, and thenafterwards, they'll be jousting.
Anyway, all right, well, Mark ifthey want to talk to you about
their money, as it relates tothe holidays and divorce and
other things, what should theydo?
Mark Hill (32:48):
Look for my website Pacific divorce management is
the company the website is dubdub dub, Pacdivorce.com, Pac di,
V, O, R, C,
Shawn Weber (32:59):
and P. Their feeling down? They need some
help. With the grief and thestruggles of divorce and the
year of first what should theydo?
Peter Roussos (33:07):
Easiest way to reach me is also through my
website Peter Russo's dot com.
PE te R. I'm sorry, I'm startingmy email addressed by Peter
rousseff.com, peterroussos.com.
Shawn Weber (33:25):
And if you want to deal with your dispute, from a
legal standpoint, go to Weberdispute resolution.com Again,
that'sWeberDisputeResolution.com
That's Weber with a with one blike the grill. Alright guys,
well, happy holidays.
Peter Roussos (33:43):
Yeah.
Shawn Weber (33:46):
Thanks for listening to another episode of
the three Wiseman divorce,money, Psych, and law. If you
liked what you heard, be sure tosubscribe. Leave us a review and
share with others who may be ina similar place. Until next
time, stay safe, healthy andfocused on a positive, bright
future. This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
(34:10):
Every family law case is unique.
So no legal, financial or mentalhealth advice is intended during
this podcast. If you need helpwith your specific situation,
feel free to schedule a time tospeak with one of us for a
personal consultation.
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