September 19, 2022 • 47 mins
In this episode, Divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST, Psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, discuss why the first two weeks of any divorce is the most dangerous time. Learn what kinds of situations can make this the most dangerous time and learn strategies for setting boundaries and minimizing conflict.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Shawn Weber (00:00):
All right, and we like to laugh as you can tell.
Peter Roussos (00:03):
I love it. I told Mark when he called that and
thank you guys again for theopportunity. But one of the
first things Mark said was theirreverence and I said to him at
the end of the call, you know,paraphrasing Jerry Maguire, you
had me a reference
Shawn Weber (00:24):
Welcome to the three Wiseman of divorce, money,
Psych and law podcast. Sit downwith the California divorce
experts financial divorceconsultant Mark Hill, marriage
and family therapist, PeteRusso's and attorney Shawn
Weber. For a frank and casualconversation about divorce,
separation, co parenting and thedifficult decisions, real people
(00:46):
like you face during these toughtimes. We know that if you are
looking at divorce orseparation, it can be scary and
overwhelming. With combinedexperience of over 60 years of
divorce and conflict management.
We are here for you and lookforward to help by sharing our
unique ideas, thoughts andperspectives on divorce,
separation and co parenting.
(01:10):
Well, Mark, it's been a whilesince we've done this, hasn't
it?
But we have a new Wiseman for2022. We'd like to welcome Pete
Roussos Marriage and FamilyTherapist extraordinaire.
Peter Roussos (01:25):
Thank you guys.
Absolute pleasure to be here.
Shawn Weber (01:29):
You know, and when I refer you, Pete, I always make
a point of pointing out topeople that you are also a sex
therapist. Yes, that makes itespecially exciting for my
clients, especially when you'regetting
Peter Roussos (01:41):
a certified sex therapist, which is different
from a certifiable. Say, Yes.
Shawn Weber (01:51):
But actually, that's interesting, because I
mean, a lot of the work that wedo, I mean, I, we had a
colleague, mutual friend yearsago that she used to say, our
business is the only one we're100% of our clients have had a
sexual relationship with oneanother.
And that's kind of aninteresting concept, right? You
know, you can't understate oroverstate how important that
(02:15):
relationship is, and then howthey're then interacting when
they're considering a breakup.
Peter Roussos (02:20):
It is so vitally important, I think, in so many
different levels. And so and I'ma couples therapy specialists,
my practice is two thirds tothree couples, but three
quarters, couples work. And sexand intimacy dynamics is at the
(02:40):
very core of it. Absolutely.
Shawn Weber (02:42):
And we've known you forever since the dinosaurs
roamed the earth. I think thewe've been working with you and
Mark and
Peter Roussos (02:49):
20 years guys
Shawn Weber (02:50):
has it really been that long?
Peter Roussos (02:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Shawn Weber (02:53):
Yeah, it's great.
I've always enjoyed working withyou.
Mark Hill (02:58):
And disclosure. Full disclosure, Peter Roussos is the
real guitarist in the band thatI play in. I just sort of play a
guitarist on TV compared toPeter so
Peter Roussos (03:11):
the, for me that you might use the four letters L
EA, D. But it's reallypronounced lead in terms of my
playing, definitely lead toguitar. I played lead guitar.
Absolutely.
Shawn Weber (03:26):
You know, Mark, before we got on here, you were
talking about how I am not amusician, but I want you to know
that I played the trombone inhigh school.
Mark Hill (03:33):
We would love a horn section
Shawn Weber (03:35):
We could do that! We could do that. You know, my
daughter Macy used to be in agroup called bonafide brass.
She's a trombone. And it was atrombone, choir. Essentially, it
was all these old men, theseretired music teachers and then
(03:56):
my 14 year old daughter.
Peter Roussos (03:59):
Shawn I have heard from experienced musicians
that the trombone is maybe themost difficult instrument to
learn how to play.
Shawn Weber (04:07):
Well, I think that's probably close to true. I
think the thing about thetrombone is there's no excuse to
be out of tune. Unless you don'thave any intonation, and then
everybody knows it, because youhave to be able to have an ear
to be able to hear is that slidein the right place. Yeah. But
anyway, well, okay, so glad tohave you here. And so So, we've
(04:29):
been thinking about in the lastcouple of weeks you know, this
is divorce season. I always jokethe beginning of the year is
divorce season and this is whenpeople are making their New
Year's resolutions to leavetheir spouse you know, and so we
we in the divorce industry, geta lot of business and then I've
got a lot of cases right nowwhere people are at the very
(04:50):
beginning stages. And and I'vealways said the most dangerous
time for a divorce is like thefirst is two weeks after people
realize they need one. Becausepeople don't know what the new
boundaries are, they don't knowwhat lane to drive in. It's just
kind of anarchy until we can getthem into a process where we can
(05:12):
help them have boundaries andfigure some things out. But I
was wondering what you guysthought of that?
Mark Hill (05:17):
Well, I think people are very fearful, when it starts
and they can be pushed in canfeel pushed into a corner where
I must have a strong attorney todefend my rights, because he
just filed for divorce, or shejust filed for divorce. And the
reaction can be to take all themoney and put it in a separate
(05:39):
account or take the childrenafter mother's or something like
that. And that's always bad.
That never ends well. But it'scomes from fear. And people tend
when they don't, as you say,Shawn, they're not in a process,
what they tend to do is theytend to look for help. And they
often will go to their divorcedfriends, who may not be the
(06:02):
right place to get your divorceadvice. Because they will, it
will be filtered through theirown experience. And most people
go through a litigatedexperience that can result in
the kind of things I just talkedabout occurring, and sometimes
are driven by the attorneys,unfortunately.
Peter Roussos (06:26):
But I'm curious for the two of you. I mean, this
is just my anecdotal sense. AndI'm curious how this lines up
with, with your experience andyour practices. But that is a
very, very rare situation. Whenboth partners want the divorce,
that there is way morefrequently, somebody who wants
(06:47):
it and the other who doesn't.
And I read bring that up,because of what that means in
terms of that experience ofrejection and failure and how
that amplifies tensions. But I'mcurious, is that also what you
guys see in your practice?
Shawn Weber (06:59):
Oh, absolutely. I would say, most of the cases,
there's somebody that didn'twant this. Yeah. And somebody
who's who's wanted this for awhile and has just gotten up the
courage to say something,
Peter Roussos (07:11):
and is way further ahead in terms of
Shawn Weber (07:13):
you know, we call it the the leave or levy
situation. And we've talkedabout before on this program,
but you know, you have thoseKubler Ross stages of grief, you
know, the the initial denial andbargaining and anger and
depression. And then finally,they get through this process of
getting to an acceptance. Andwhat happens is, you might have
(07:35):
the lievore, who's gone throughall of the stages, and his
advocates acceptance, and isreally at peace with the fact
that there's a divorce. And thenthe spouse is just hearing about
this. And they're all over themap. And they don't know what to
do with this information. And soit can make those first few
weeks really kind of crazy foreverybody to leave, or is just
(07:56):
like bouncing between terror andrage and denial and everything
else and trying to save themarriage. They're desperate to
save the marriage. And sothey'll act in ways that are
unhelpful. And I'm alwayscoaching to leave or calm down
slower is faster. You know,we'll get there, but it's, it's
(08:16):
like, my dog who's your he'sthis little Puggle. And when I
first we first got him as apuppy, we put a leash on to take
him for a walk, and I pulled onhis leash, and he just sat down.
And when he would pull the otherdirection, and I think that's
what the levy will do when wepull on them, you know, because
(08:37):
they, they won't, they will gothe direction they're willing to
go when they're willing to go.
Yeah, go ahead.
Mark Hill (08:44):
Well, I've also seen revisionists thinking throughout
a case to where some they comein and they go, yes, we both
want the divorce. And then asyou go through the process, you
find out one really doesn't wantthe divorce. And they're not at
the same stage, they told you atthe outset. And when you discuss
it with them, they don't reallyhave a good memory of saying
that they were ready, you know?
Shawn Weber (09:07):
Well, I've seen people switch. I've seen people
start out as the one that wantedto leave and or maybe they
general word of advice don'tfile for divorce as a way to get
your spouse's attention. Right,because they may take you up on
it, you know. So I mean, I'veseen that happen where people
(09:27):
file for the divorce or threatenthe divorce thinking that it'll
get somebody's attention, andthey're like, Oh, hey, you know
what this idea of Gen four ispretty good. And then now you
don't want the divorce and tryto save the marriage, but it's
too late. You've done enoughdamage
Unknown (09:42):
and Shawn I'm curious.
This may be jumping ahead alittle bit. But if this is the
most dangerous time, what's thesecond most it seems like
there's also that moment I thinkof panic and finality as the
negotiations are concluded orthings are getting ready to be
finalized.
Shawn Weber (10:00):
the week they sign the MSA.
Peter Roussos (10:01):
Yeah, yeah!
Shawn Weber (10:02):
they signed the marital settlement agreement and
signed their papers to finalizethis. And they realize, oh, this
is really over. Yeah, you see,you see all kinds of weird
behavior that week too. Yeah.
Mark Hill (10:14):
But if you can engage the clients along the way, so
that it's a process, not anevent, in other words, and
normalize it, and to say thingslike, you know, you're gonna be
probably experienced these kindsof feelings, this stage, and
it's totally normal. That's whateveryone does, don't beat
(10:35):
yourself up about it. And that'sthe beauty of having the
resources of the three differentareas, the financial, the
emotional, and the legal.
Shawn Weber (10:44):
Yep. Well, I think, at the beginning, too, I think
people are smart, if they getinto a process or get with a
professional as soon aspossible. Even if they think
everything's gonna be fine. Getsome advice early, so that we
can help you because we've seenthis movie before. I just
(11:07):
finished with a this couple Iwas talking to you about
earlier, they were they had areally horrible first week, you
know, and they're cohabitingstill. And there was a little
bit of violence that hadhappened between it was kind of
situational violence, I don'tthink this is a pattern that's
going to be ongoing, butsomebody threw a hairbrush. And
(11:27):
then somebody got mad, puts afist through a wall. And, and
and, you know, those are themoments where the police might
get called, and then the wholecase could go really south from
there. But we had a mediationsession where we just spent the
entire time setting boundaries.
Okay, so which part of the houseis your part of the house? Can I
come into your bedroom withoutyour permission? You know, what,
(11:47):
what are we doing about evensilly things like, which side of
the fridge is who's, you know,just kind of setting the
boundaries so that people arebuilding this new muscle of now
we're single people, as opposedto married people, we shared
everything, we're single people,now we're, our boundaries have
to be respected. And that's anew thing for a
Peter Roussos (12:09):
lot of people.
And I think you in some ways,you you can't be too detailed or
upset differently, if you'regoing to err, to err on the side
of being over detailed in termsof defining the structure. What
are the rules of engagement,
Mark Hill (12:24):
I always say that when we have crafting, you know,
we can craft a maritalsettlement agreement to be as
detailed as you think you want.
Or we can craft it as detailedas we think it's going to need
to be right and the latter isbetter. Because you may need
something will come up at somepoint where you're gonna go back
and look at that document. Andyou might not like what you
(12:46):
sign. But the chances are, ifyou've signed it, you will
comply with it, because youagreed to it at the time. So
more detail is better.
Shawn Weber (12:57):
Yeah, you know, I think another piece of advice
that I would give folks as don'tmake major changes in the first
weeks. Sometimes people arelike, they want to go cancel
insurance policies, and theywant to sell cars, and they
wanna put their house on themarket. And they want to do this
and that. But I mean, Mark, yousaid this before on financial
issues, why wouldn't you want tomake major changes?
Mark Hill (13:16):
Well, because A, there's going to be restraining
orders coming up here, numberone, this file that says you
can't do that. And number two,it'll probably have the reverse
impact that you hope. In otherwords, if you think I'm going to
change the beneficiary on myretirement account, because I
won't be married to her anymore,that's probably not going to
make her feel very good andtrusting of you. And trust is
(13:40):
important, because we have tofoster that concept that they
can each trust what each othersaying, because this is a
voluntary process that we enter,yes, you'll find signing forms
under the penalty of perjury,and you better be forthright and
honest with what you're givingus in terms of numbers. But it's
still a voluntary process thatthey're both engaging in. And
(14:00):
you want to make sure that youdon't increase the level of
distrust that may be existingthat's causing the divorce, but
I
Shawn Weber (14:09):
don't I don't want to spend more money on her
health insurance. We're gettingdivorced, she should get her own
health insurance. What would yousay to that person?
Mark Hill (14:15):
I would say go talk to Shawn he's a lawyer. Explain
the issues that you'd be facingaround that. Literally, I would.
Also counselor, what does thatmean if you did that?
Shawn Weber (14:28):
Right. Well, there's also the issue of you
know, what, what would happen ifto this to your case, it would
actually cost more if you dothings that freak the other
person out? Yeah. Yeah,absolutely. person doesn't feel
good to have their insurancepulled out from under them. And
then my advice to that personwas make no major changes
because you owe fiduciary dutiesto the other spouse similar to
(14:51):
what you would owe a businesspartner. And so and the court
takes the fiduciary duty asserious as a heart attack. So
you don't want do major thingswithout the other person's
participation, because surpriseis the enemy of peace. You know,
if you, if you shock somebodywith some shot across the bow or
some major change, it's going tocause people to react and
(15:14):
sometimes overreact. And anyshot you had of having a divorce
that was less than six figuresstarts going down the tube.
Peter Roussos (15:23):
You know, I think one of the challenges to that,
you know, the dynamics thatdrove the dysfunction and the
disconnection between partnersis almost always are almost
always amplified when they'renavigating separation and
divorce. And I think that, thatif they're gonna find their way
to treating each other at thevery least more respectfully and
(15:45):
more appropriately, thinking interms of fairness, they've got
to be willing to aspire to that,you know, the realize they can't
be reenact reactive in from thatplace of hurt, because if they
do that it is just going to bedestructive. So when I hear the
question of, of somebodygrappling with whether or not
they want to support the otherperson's health care insurance,
(16:10):
the thing that I would wonderabout is so so why is it good
for your children, for example,if your soon to be ex spouse
sees, you know, doesn't havehealth insurance, how, what is
the greater good that you wantto commit yourself and work
towards with each other?
Bringing it back to this idea ofthere's going to be a bunch of
sacrifices that are have to bemade? How do you do that fairly.
(16:31):
But if they're not willing toaspire, beyond the present
moment, and the present hurt,those are the couples that will
struggle and will have the moreexpensive divorces? Absolutely,
Mark Hill (16:43):
yeah. And expense is almost exponential when you get
into litigation. And the mostexpensive divorces are failed
mediations, or collaborativecases, frankly, because they've
already can be really expensive.
So again, revisiting the conceptof Dave, we have a mission
statement here. What are whatare our highest and best
(17:05):
intentions, as we enter thisprocess? Something we can take
the clients back to say, tell mehow what's going on right now
fits with what you told me threemonths ago? Well,
Shawn Weber (17:17):
thank you, thank you for bringing that up.
Because the mission statementcan really be important at the
beginning. Right? Yeah. I mean,I like to spend time talking
about what are these governingvalues, what are these just no
brainer values that everybodyagrees to, that we can write
down, and, and then come back toit, it becomes a decision making
(17:38):
paradigm as we're going forward,you know, I, you know, and these
are no brainer things like, weboth want our kids to be
healthy. You know, I haven'ttalked to anybody that wants
their kids to be unhealthy.
Right, right, or, or we want tohave a mutually respectful
divorce or whatever theirparticular value is, and then
just come back to the mutuallyrespectful to cut your wife off
of the insurance policy.
Peter Roussos (18:02):
It says there's a there's a concept that I use all
the time with, with clients,whether I'm working in therapy,
or if I'm working in when I wasdoing collaborative work or
working in terms of mediationsupport. And the guy that
developed the psychotherapeuticmodel that I worked from
developed. And that's what herefers to as a two choice
dilemma. And this is a situationthat happens to us all the time
(18:25):
in life where we've got thesituation. And in response to
it, we've got two choices thatare available to us. And the
dilemma is that we wantdifferent choices than the ones
that are available. Or we wantboth of the choices. And so a
common one, I think in divorcecases is where we want to, to
(18:46):
protect ourselves, and do thatin a way that the other person
will experience as harsh. Whileat the same time we want the
other person to be consideratetowards us, or we want the other
person to be fair, and you justcan't put the two together. And
so that dilemma is the person'sgot to decide which of those
choices is more likely to leadto something positive. And you
(19:11):
know, it never works iscertainly not in what are
supposed to be egalitarianrelationships if we expect the
other person to do something, orto accept something that we
ourselves are not willing to door accept in return.
Mark Hill (19:23):
It goes back to that the idea if you have a proposal,
we presume it has value for you.
What value will it have for yourspouse and what value does it
have for the family becauseyou're still going to be if you
have children your family yourreform that you're still a
family
Peter Roussos (19:39):
yeah
Shawn Weber (19:39):
well I'm there's different kinds of defense you
know, some people have a defensewhere they kind of put a wall up
or they they put up thingsboundaries to protect themselves
and then there's the people likea good defense is a good
offense. And and they want toyou know, strike first because
they're frightened they strikeYeah, yeah. And and and a lot of
these I mean, you mentioned itearlier, Pete, a lot of this is
(20:02):
so fear driven, I don't knowwhat's going to happen to me, I
don't know what's coming. AndI've seen people that you would
think have really got their acttogether, you know, CEOs that
run big companies, absolutelyfreak out, and then do these
kinds of fight or flight kind ofthings. And so you can either
flee into your own little shell,or you can lash out, and it's
(20:24):
the lashing out that we'rereally worried about, although
the fleeing into your own shellisn't particularly helpful,
either, as
Unknown (20:33):
you know, is it also I think that there are these these
aspects of behavior. And it'strue that the people we love the
most are the ones that see, theparts of us that are, are at
times, least healthy, darkest,whatever. And so even what
you're describing how strikingit is, that, you know, the way
(20:55):
that the partners will behavetowards each other in ways that
they would never treat anybodyelse. So, it and I say that,
because if you take a titan ofindustry, and you think about
their capacity to make businessdecisions, and to manage
themselves in difficultsituations, in the service of a
business goal and objective, whostruggled to do that, in their
(21:19):
family relationships, but theyou know, there's a number of
ways where I think people givethemselves, well, I'll just
speak for themselves, where Iallow myself to behave in a way
that I wouldn't want, you know,other people to say, I think we
all do that. We do that as aspecies. And it's a willingness,
I think, to really confrontourselves and to face those
(21:41):
kinds of choice dilemmas, thatdetermines the extent to which,
in this context that we'retalking about, people are going
to be able to have a healthydivorce process, or respect
based divorce process that setsthe stage for them to be
lifelong, healthy andappropriate. And collaborative
coparents
Mark Hill (21:58):
You know, I liken it to basically, the difference
between how people behave,driving cars and walking as a
pedestrian is that it's thatsort of boundary around you that
allows you to be a jerk. Or dowalking on the streets and
Shawn Weber (22:15):
call I call him the good Sorry, sorry, Mark. I
didn't mean to talk. I was done.
I want you there's there's thekeyboard commandos they get on.
They're really good at gettingon Facebook and beating somebody
into a bloody pulp over apolitical issue, but they would
never talk like that to somebodyin person.
Mark Hill (22:34):
Yeah, yep. Same thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Shawn Weber (22:38):
Yeah. Well, I mean, then so you know, not
overreacting to things. That isprobably an important thing to
really be mindful of just take amoment when something weird
happens that you're notexpecting, and we get a
curveball that frightens you. Ialways tell people, you're not a
computer, it doesn't mean thatwhen somebody pushes your
button, you have to act in acertain way, we have this
(23:00):
ability between, you know,stimulus and reaction to govern
our thoughts. That's whatseparates us from the animals,
right. And so we can do that inour divorce case. So when the
stimulus happens, that kind ofscares us or frightens us or
makes us angry. The overreactiona lot of times makes it so much
(23:20):
worse.
Mark Hill (23:23):
And also, I think, when you're faced with the
divorce, is trying to thinkstrategically in terms of what
resources am I going to need toget through this, as opposed to
defensively and I need someoneto fight for me and protect me?
Wait a minute, let's think thisthrough what resources am I
(23:45):
going to need to be able to gothrough this continue to have
some kind of relationship withmy soon to be ex so that I can
be a decent co parent with?
Because that's, I mean, I'vesaid for years that I use the
children relentlessly in thisprocess. I mean, you know, the
one thing that kids agree on, issorry, the parents agree on is
that they love their kids. And,you know, as Sean has told, I
(24:10):
think more than one time, judgesdon't love your kids like you
do.
Shawn Weber (24:19):
Yeah, yeah. Judge said to me, I don't love your
kids. It's what he said to myclients. But yet you're asking
me to make a decision about yourchildren. You know, and that's
the truth. I mean, you want toget into the meat grinder of the
courthouse and do that. Butthink about what what reaction
(24:40):
Your kids will have, whatexperience they will have, what
experience you will have. Youknow,
Peter Roussos (24:46):
you know what I think Shawn was talking about
that initial two week period.
That is definitely I think thepotential to be way more
reactive time that I think theoverarching most important
objective is that they'reworking together. To turn the
temperature down. And in apractical sense, what that can
often mean is that they have tocreate more separation within
the home, that they're steeringclear of certain subjects, the
(25:09):
absolute importance of bothparties doing what they can visa
vie, healthy self care,exercise, you know, diet, sleep,
the avoidance of, of alcohol andsubstances, those are the things
that that absolutely poseadditional risk factors. And
then I think setting basicground rules about what they're
(25:30):
going to talk about and howthey're going to talk about in
this interim time, while thingsare being put in place and you
know, movement towards the, theresolving of issues like
temporary support that kind ofthing. But often it means really
trying to create moreseparation, while being under
the same roof
Shawn Weber (25:49):
rule, Mark, you and I had a case where we would beg
them not to talk about the case,yep. And then they would get in
a car and drive togethersomewhere. And they would, by
the time they got out of thatcar at destination, she's having
to call an Uber because she'snot gonna ride with him anymore,
this jerk and, and he's
Mark Hill (26:08):
just dropped him off on the side of the freeway, once
you remember the way to anappointment with the teenage son
who was having challenges, youknow, he literally dumped him on
the freeway, so get out of thecar. It's, it is difficult, when
(26:28):
you haven't ever had an intimaterelationship with someone not to
feel that it's appropriate tobring up anything you want to
talk about. But it's notproductive. And, and and, again,
I say to people, you've hired meor us to do this work. And now,
(26:49):
you're not going to use thatresource you're paying for for
that. Where's the sense in that?
You know, where's the value inthat?
Shawn Weber (26:58):
Well, I think a lot of it is Go ahead, Pete. Sorry.
Peter Roussos (27:01):
Or they end up paying us and paying more
because they want us to clean upthe mess.
Mark Hill (27:08):
Yes, yep. Yep.
And, you know, the idea thatpeople, people sometimes coming
in come in, obviously, everyonecomes in with their own story of
the marriage, okay, which isgoing to be different. You know,
we always say there's threestories. There's her story, his
story and what really happened,and we don't know what's true
out of the three of them. Butthe idea that you can get in
(27:31):
front of a court in front of ajudge and tell your story, and
the judge will understand whatan awful person the other is,
and give you everything. Thetruth of the matter is that
judges see two warring partieswho can't divide the furniture.
And they used to be able to makebabies, and there's not a lot of
sympathy there. And that's asurprise to people, I think when
(27:53):
they consider because they havea TV view of what happens in
court.
Shawn Weber (28:00):
Yeah. Yeah, the chances of you having that that
TV experience, I think a lot ofpeople are really unrealistic
about what happens at court now.
And if you ever want to, youknow, if you're contemplating
divorce, it's a, you might wantto just go to the courthouse and
watch what happens at the FamilyCourt. And you'll see that there
is no justice there. This is nota place where anybody cares
(28:23):
about your situation at all.
You're just one of the hordesone of the masses of people that
are there to take the time ofthe judge, and the clerks. And
you'll see that that venue isnot something's going to bring
you relief. If you want relief,then get with some professionals
(28:44):
that know how to help you have aconstructive dialogue. So this
becomes you know, as the adagesays, this is a problem to be
solved as opposed to battle tobe fought. And then and then you
can get to a place and it comesback to the thing that mark and
I've talked about before andthat is that, you know you what
kind of divorce story. Do youwant to come out of this with
(29:07):
like, what story you want yourchildren telling about how it
was when you got divorced?
Because we hear about both we Ihave the children coming into my
office and hiring me for theirdivorce. And they'll say to me,
oh my gosh, I don't want to belike my parents divorce was, you
know, or occasionally I get thatperson says, you know, our my
parents got divorced when I wasyoung, but but boy, they, they
(29:29):
sure put their kids first. And Iknew there was a battle but I I
didn't know necessarily what itwas. I knew there was some some
discussion and somedisagreement. But I always knew
that my parents loved me andthat was the most important
thing
Mark Hill (29:45):
that my son literally said that to me when I had the
courage when he was 19 to askhim. So what was it like growing
up for you? Well, your mama taudifferent I can't imagine you
guys ever been together? But Inever heard either one. If you
say a bad word about the other,and I knew you both loved me. I
mean, it still touches me thatboy. And so we did good. We did
(30:09):
a good job somehow. And it washard. And it was difficult at
times. So I'm sure for hercertainly was for me. But we put
him first we put him in -- it'slike, "how will this affect him
before we think about how itaffects us?" You know.
Shawn Weber (30:23):
Thanks for sharing that mark. Because I can tell
that sounds really emotional.
Mark Hill (30:28):
Yeah, I mean, that that was he's 40- 40 years old
now. So that was 21 years ago.
Shawn Weber (30:33):
That's a good divorce story. And so and I
think people that are listeningto this at home that maybe are
in those first two weeks and arefeeling hopeless, or scared, or
in a in a dark hole, that thereis a way out, yeah, that there
is a there is a light at the endof the tunnel, and I get it, you
got to get through the tunnel.
But there is a way to do this.
And you can get out. Okay, onthe other side,
Peter Roussos (30:55):
I want to ask you both. And this may be something
that you have talked about inanother podcast. But you know,
part of what we're talking aboutis how people prepare
themselves. If they've made thedecision to divorce, how do they
prepare themselves, and reallythink of it in terms of how do
they prepare themselves tomanage their fear, their hurt
(31:15):
their disappointment, so thatthey can engage in it in an
appropriate and really missionstatement focused way, if you
will. To get to that healthyside,
Shawn Weber (31:24):
one of the first things I will advise them to do
is to call Peter Russo's and,and get some, you know, meet
with a mental healthprofessional who can coach you
through this so that you canprepare yourself and bring your
best self to the table.
Peter Roussos (31:39):
Well, I mean, Shawn, I appreciate you saying
that. And I want to tell youjust a conversation that I have
with people who are coming to mefor marital therapy. And I tell
them straight up that I thinkthat I think that there are
healthy and and I do a lot ofwork with couples who are at the
very, very end of their ropes,who have been in couples therapy
(32:02):
before feel like it didn't helpthem. And the conversation I
like to have with them, I thinkis important to have with them
is that I do believe that thereare healthy and valid reasons to
divorce. And I also believe thatmost divorces happen before the
couple has done the kind of workthat I think is necessary for
marital partners to reallyunderstand why they're
(32:24):
struggling. And to understandwhat the potential for change is
between them, so that they canmake a more fully informed
decision about whether or notthe marriage can be what they
wanted. And that if that workisn't happened, I think that it
is really important that ithappened particularly if kids
are involved. That's my, my bias
Shawn Weber (32:44):
well, and that can happen as part of the divorce.
Right? You can have
Peter Roussos (32:47):
absolutely!
Shawn Weber (32:47):
conversation about well, how can I now because your
family is not in and we've saidthat before these people are all
still here. So how can I have aproductive relationship with
this person, right. And and sothat I can have a a productive
exit from the relationship orchange of the relationship. And
(33:12):
I think a lot of the skills thatyou probably teach them as part
of their marriage counseling areskills that they can have in
their divorce process. In fact,I can always tell when somebody
comes into mediation, wherethey've been the marriage,
family, and marriage therapy, orcouples counseling, because they
use, they use skills thatthey've learned how they see
(33:33):
each other, and they listen toeach other, and they repeat what
the other person is sad, andthey try to show empathy. And
that makes a huge differencewhen I'm mediating with somebody
because they can take a momentand they can be a little more
mindful of their own reactions.
And they can take them home isokay. Yeah, well, what I'm
trying to say is this, and I seewhere you're coming from. And
I'm like, I was glad when thathappens. And because they've had
some preparation.
Peter Roussos (33:56):
When I hear you talking about those kinds of
couples, they sound to me likecouples who, who maybe it's it's
arriving at a painful decision,I think that the decision to
divorce is, is almost always notalways a painful decision. In
fact, I would say in the goingon 29 years that I've been in
practice, I've had one case witha couple that I worked with it
(34:20):
was in fact it was acollaborative divorce case,
where one of the partners hadabsolutely no ambivalence
whatsoever. And that waspathological. I mean, to really
be spoke what was going on interms of their dynamics within
the relationship? I think thatthat what you're talking about
are couples that sounds likethey made the investment in
(34:42):
therapy, and then they face thereality that they can't have the
kind of marital relationshipthat they want to have that that
and maybe it was one of themreaching that conclusion, but it
was a less reactive decisionbecause they did some of that
work.
Shawn Weber (34:56):
Yeah, so So I think going to therapy before you get
the divorce. This is a good ideabecause number, even if it's
just individual counseling,because you can, you can tell
what are the patterns in my ownpersonal behavior that got me in
trouble here. So that you canthen kind of avoid pitfalls as
you get into the what is anemotional drama? When you get
into the divorce, you have totalk to your spouse about it.
(35:19):
I'll go ahead
Peter Roussos (35:21):
In Part I'm curious for the two of you. In
Part, I was struck by the wayyou said it and in wish that
there was more of this peopleliterally going to observe a
court process and family. How dopeople appropriately informed
themselves of what they shouldexpect, financially? And within
(35:42):
the legal the family lawframework? What would you love
to see if you could, you know,if you could you could ordain,
what it is that people need todo in order to get the license
to divorce? Well, those required
Shawn Weber (35:57):
that's really good stuff. I think, number one, I
would I mentioned the therapy,number two would be looking at
the financial picture. So youhave absolute clarity about what
happens when you get divorced,you know, and that and I'd love
sending people to mark andpeople could sit down with Mark,
and he could, he could show thatthis is what the pie is. And
(36:19):
this is what will happen. Mostlikely, if there's a divorce,
and this is the pain that youwill suffer as a result of these
decisions. And, and here's somethings that you need to think
about if it is going to be adivorce. And then they can also
meet with someone like me andget the legal advice. This is
what will happen legally, thisis what will happen with your
(36:39):
money legally. Yes, that's thatthing you thought that was your
separate property is not yourseparate property according to
the law, or whatever. And all
Mark Hill (36:48):
those expenses you write off on your business are
not going to be treated that wayfor income, right? Available for
support that is, things likethat, where people have
misconceptions quite reasonably,because if you have a business,
some people put their grocerybills on there, which may not be
right. But if they can get awaywith it with their accountant,
(37:09):
that'll do it, that's not gonnafly when we're working out how
to do how to Despit expenseincome,
Shawn Weber (37:15):
or having the clarity that if you get
divorced, you will have areduction in your standard of
living. Two
Mark Hill (37:20):
houses cost more than one? Right?
Shawn Weber (37:23):
There's no way around it no way around it
mathematically impossible forhim to go any other way. Yep.
And so I can run support numbersfor people, I can let them see
this. If if a judge were todecide this, this is probably
what your support would be. Youknow, and that, that kind of
mindful planning and thinkingabout where I'm headed, I have
(37:44):
seen people decide, oh, well, Idon't want to do this. Yeah,
it's really reality. We'reunderstanding that you're going
to divide your retirement inhalf. That's sobering when you
realize that your retirement issplit and divided by two. Yeah,
whether you like it or not,yeah, you earned this, you
worked your whole life tocontribute to this. And yes,
(38:05):
you're gonna have to divide itin half with the person you're
mad at.
Mark Hill (38:09):
And that business you worked in for 28 years, and you
built up to that, not only doyou have to pay your spouse for
half of the value, but now theincome is that you derive from
it is going to be showed to?
Shawn Weber (38:22):
And again, can I just add one more piece to this,
and that is to learn how to bemindful, yeah, learn how to be
present. And what I mean by thatis being able to observe
yourself and your own reactionsin a dispassionate way. So that
you can logically assess howyou're behaving and how you're
(38:43):
reacting with other people. Ifyou can do that, that will take
you a very long way in thedivorce process towards having a
peaceful resolution as opposedto the warfare and think in
Mark Hill (38:55):
terms of outcome.
What's the outcome I would liketo see is everything I'm doing,
going to give me the best chanceof guessing or approaching that
outcome. And if people can thinkthat way, it often stops them
from the self destructivebehavior we all see all the
time.
Peter Roussos (39:16):
I heard it said this is many years ago at a
training and it was a couplestherapy training. And the
presenter was talking abouthelping people to learn how to
be curious rather than furious.
Shawn Weber (39:28):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, that's really good. Oh, Ihad a couple today like this.
Like, he asked a legitimatequestion about a proposal that
she was making. And she wasfurious at the question. How
dare you ask that? And I said,Well, hang on a moment. Is there
an answer to the question? Youknow, let's stop a moment. Okay,
(39:50):
I get it that you're pissed thathe's not just okay with this.
But he had a question. What'syour answer? You know, you And
then so when she took a momentto kind of dispassionately think
about what the answer was, sheactually withdrew her proposal.
Mark Hill (40:08):
So how would that have worked, if they've been
having that discussion over thekitchen table?
Shawn Weber (40:14):
Somebody would have flipped the table. I don't know.
Mark Hill (40:18):
That's my point is that you find the resources to
help you through this, becauseit's not easy.
Shawn Weber (40:25):
I do tell people, I'm like, you fight well. But I
want you to know, I'm aprofessional. And I can help you
fight in a way that isproductive. My job is to help
you resolve your conflict andfind a pathway forward, you
know, get into that world you'reexperiencing so you can find a
(40:46):
pathway. Well, we've beentalking a long time, and I feel
like we can keep going. There's,you know, we started with Oh, my
gosh, the terror of the firsttwo weeks, and then we really
got into almost a Zen discussionabout what can you do with your
attitudes and with, you know, inpreparation to make sure that
this process is, is going totell a good divorce story for
(41:08):
you. The outcome can bepositive.
Peter Roussos (41:14):
You know, as you as you said that Charlotte was
thinking about just even theimportance of being able to
normalize, for people look,these, these next couple of
weeks are going to be reallytough. Yeah, I plan on that
prepare for that, know thatthat's normal. And if it if it's
less difficult than youanticipate wonderful, but this
is all about setting thefoundation for a process going
(41:37):
forward. That is respect based,that is appropriate that is
really guided by an aspirationfor a lifelong relationship with
each other post divorce. But tonormalize that, it's it's gonna
be hard. It always is. andnormalize
Mark Hill (41:53):
the fact that financially, it's going to be
hard, in other words, is that,you know, my take two to five
years to recover from a divorcefinancially. And candidly, if
you're at a certain point inlife, you may never recover. And
you may have to change yourexpectations dramatically. And I
always say to people, when theydon't like the numbers, I'm
(42:14):
sorry, I just can't make them doanything different. The numbers
are what they are.
Shawn Weber (42:21):
So I've been taking some notes. While I've been
talking, I've got sometakeaways. Okay, so just to kind
of summarize where we've been.
So when you find out that thedivorce is going to happen, and
you get into those first fewmoments, the first thing is
don't overreact, right. Don'tpanic, then don't make major
changes. Until you've talked toprofessionals and figured it
out. Get advice early, ratherthan waiting for things to go
(42:45):
badly, and then get advice. Andbe prepared to set boundaries
like that Robert Frost poem,fences make better neighbors, so
be ready to build a fence thatis going to be useful and set a
boundary. And then the lastthing if you got kids put your
kids first. I miss anything,
Mark Hill (43:07):
is a good summary.
Peter Roussos (43:08):
Yeah. Beautiful.
Shawn Weber (43:11):
Somebody write that down. Okay. So let me ask Pete,
you know, if people want to talkto someone about me emotionally
preparing themselves for adivorce or for a relationship
ending, who should they call?
Peter Roussos (43:29):
Well, off the top of my head shot. You know, this
is something that that, that Ilove to try to help people with
it. And quite honestly, my hopeis that I get to see them before
they reach that point. But thisis certainly I absolutely
(43:51):
believe that it's in life'stoughest circumstances where the
greatest growth opportunitiesare. So if people are
contemplating a divorce, and I'dlike to talk to somebody about
what that means and what it'sgoing to take from them and for
them in order to have it be agrowth, opportunity and respect
based and appropriate. I wouldbe happy to talk with them about
(44:12):
that. They can certainly reachme by my website, which is Peter
Russo's dot com. Got a lot ofinformation there about my
background and my approach,couple of videos of interviews
that that I've done and they canemail me directly from my
website.
Shawn Weber (44:30):
Thanks, Peter.
Roussos Peter, like it soundsthen Roussos r o u s. S. O S.
Yeah.
Peter Roussos (44:37):
Exactly. Yeah,
Shawn Weber (44:38):
either. roussos.com There you have. Yeah. And Mark.
They're worried about theirmoney in preparing for this big
major event. What should theydo?
Mark Hill (44:48):
Go to my website.
Company is Pacific divorceManagement, LLC. My website is
packed divorce.com PAC di Borce.com and our contact form is
now working?
Shawn Weber (45:02):
Well, it's about
Mark Hill (45:04):
time. It's about time, but it is. So please fill
out a contact form and we willrespond within the next business
day.
Shawn Weber (45:15):
And if you need to work worried about the legal or
if you just have a dispute thatneeds resolving My website is
Weber dispute resolution.comWe're in the business of
connecting people with themediator that can help them
resolve their dispute so thatthey don't have to have a fight.
They can solve a problem. Again,that's Weber dispute
resolution.com
Mark Hill (45:36):
And that's Weber would one be like the grill?
Shawn Weber (45:40):
That's right, or the brand. People come at me
with brand? Okay, I didn't evenknow there was a sandy Alright
guys, well, this was fun. Pete,welcome aboard.
Peter Roussos (45:52):
Oh, thank you guys. This was a lot of fun. I
really appreciate being able toshare the time with you. Thank
you.
Shawn Weber (45:58):
All right, and those of you in podcast land.
Thanks for listening. And if youliked what you heard, please
tell someone and give us a like.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of the three wisemen
divorce, money, Psych, and law.
If you liked what you heard, besure to subscribe. Leave us a
review and share with others whomay be in a similar place. Until
(46:20):
next time, stay safe, healthyand focused on a positive bright
future. This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
Every family law case is unique.
So no legal, financial or mentalhealth advice is intended during
this podcast. If you need helpwith your specific situation,
feel free to schedule a time tospeak with one of us for a
(46:43):
personal consultation.
All right, and we like to laugh as you can tell.
Peter Roussos (00:03):
I love it. I told Mark when he called that and
thank you guys again for theopportunity. But one of the
first things Mark said was theirreverence and I said to him at
the end of the call, you know,paraphrasing Jerry Maguire, you
had me a reference
Shawn Weber (00:24):
Welcome to the three Wiseman of divorce, money,
Psych and law podcast. Sit downwith the California divorce
experts financial divorceconsultant Mark Hill, marriage
and family therapist, PeteRusso's and attorney Shawn
Weber. For a frank and casualconversation about divorce,
separation, co parenting and thedifficult decisions, real people
(00:46):
like you face during these toughtimes. We know that if you are
looking at divorce orseparation, it can be scary and
overwhelming. With combinedexperience of over 60 years of
divorce and conflict management.
We are here for you and lookforward to help by sharing our
unique ideas, thoughts andperspectives on divorce,
separation and co parenting.
(01:10):
Well, Mark, it's been a whilesince we've done this, hasn't
it?
But we have a new Wiseman for2022. We'd like to welcome Pete
Roussos Marriage and FamilyTherapist extraordinaire.
Peter Roussos (01:25):
Thank you guys.
Absolute pleasure to be here.
Shawn Weber (01:29):
You know, and when I refer you, Pete, I always make
a point of pointing out topeople that you are also a sex
therapist. Yes, that makes itespecially exciting for my
clients, especially when you'regetting
Peter Roussos (01:41):
a certified sex therapist, which is different
from a certifiable. Say, Yes.
Shawn Weber (01:51):
But actually, that's interesting, because I
mean, a lot of the work that wedo, I mean, I, we had a
colleague, mutual friend yearsago that she used to say, our
business is the only one we're100% of our clients have had a
sexual relationship with oneanother.
And that's kind of aninteresting concept, right? You
know, you can't understate oroverstate how important that
(02:15):
relationship is, and then howthey're then interacting when
they're considering a breakup.
Peter Roussos (02:20):
It is so vitally important, I think, in so many
different levels. And so and I'ma couples therapy specialists,
my practice is two thirds tothree couples, but three
quarters, couples work. And sexand intimacy dynamics is at the
(02:40):
very core of it. Absolutely.
Shawn Weber (02:42):
And we've known you forever since the dinosaurs
roamed the earth. I think thewe've been working with you and
Mark and
Peter Roussos (02:49):
20 years guys
Shawn Weber (02:50):
has it really been that long?
Peter Roussos (02:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Shawn Weber (02:53):
Yeah, it's great.
I've always enjoyed working withyou.
Mark Hill (02:58):
And disclosure. Full disclosure, Peter Roussos is the
real guitarist in the band thatI play in. I just sort of play a
guitarist on TV compared toPeter so
Peter Roussos (03:11):
the, for me that you might use the four letters L
EA, D. But it's reallypronounced lead in terms of my
playing, definitely lead toguitar. I played lead guitar.
Absolutely.
Shawn Weber (03:26):
You know, Mark, before we got on here, you were
talking about how I am not amusician, but I want you to know
that I played the trombone inhigh school.
Mark Hill (03:33):
We would love a horn section
Shawn Weber (03:35):
We could do that! We could do that. You know, my
daughter Macy used to be in agroup called bonafide brass.
She's a trombone. And it was atrombone, choir. Essentially, it
was all these old men, theseretired music teachers and then
(03:56):
my 14 year old daughter.
Peter Roussos (03:59):
Shawn I have heard from experienced musicians
that the trombone is maybe themost difficult instrument to
learn how to play.
Shawn Weber (04:07):
Well, I think that's probably close to true. I
think the thing about thetrombone is there's no excuse to
be out of tune. Unless you don'thave any intonation, and then
everybody knows it, because youhave to be able to have an ear
to be able to hear is that slidein the right place. Yeah. But
anyway, well, okay, so glad tohave you here. And so So, we've
(04:29):
been thinking about in the lastcouple of weeks you know, this
is divorce season. I always jokethe beginning of the year is
divorce season and this is whenpeople are making their New
Year's resolutions to leavetheir spouse you know, and so we
we in the divorce industry, geta lot of business and then I've
got a lot of cases right nowwhere people are at the very
(04:50):
beginning stages. And and I'vealways said the most dangerous
time for a divorce is like thefirst is two weeks after people
realize they need one. Becausepeople don't know what the new
boundaries are, they don't knowwhat lane to drive in. It's just
kind of anarchy until we can getthem into a process where we can
(05:12):
help them have boundaries andfigure some things out. But I
was wondering what you guysthought of that?
Mark Hill (05:17):
Well, I think people are very fearful, when it starts
and they can be pushed in canfeel pushed into a corner where
I must have a strong attorney todefend my rights, because he
just filed for divorce, or shejust filed for divorce. And the
reaction can be to take all themoney and put it in a separate
(05:39):
account or take the childrenafter mother's or something like
that. And that's always bad.
That never ends well. But it'scomes from fear. And people tend
when they don't, as you say,Shawn, they're not in a process,
what they tend to do is theytend to look for help. And they
often will go to their divorcedfriends, who may not be the
(06:02):
right place to get your divorceadvice. Because they will, it
will be filtered through theirown experience. And most people
go through a litigatedexperience that can result in
the kind of things I just talkedabout occurring, and sometimes
are driven by the attorneys,unfortunately.
Peter Roussos (06:26):
But I'm curious for the two of you. I mean, this
is just my anecdotal sense. AndI'm curious how this lines up
with, with your experience andyour practices. But that is a
very, very rare situation. Whenboth partners want the divorce,
that there is way morefrequently, somebody who wants
(06:47):
it and the other who doesn't.
And I read bring that up,because of what that means in
terms of that experience ofrejection and failure and how
that amplifies tensions. But I'mcurious, is that also what you
guys see in your practice?
Shawn Weber (06:59):
Oh, absolutely. I would say, most of the cases,
there's somebody that didn'twant this. Yeah. And somebody
who's who's wanted this for awhile and has just gotten up the
courage to say something,
Peter Roussos (07:11):
and is way further ahead in terms of
Shawn Weber (07:13):
you know, we call it the the leave or levy
situation. And we've talkedabout before on this program,
but you know, you have thoseKubler Ross stages of grief, you
know, the the initial denial andbargaining and anger and
depression. And then finally,they get through this process of
getting to an acceptance. Andwhat happens is, you might have
(07:35):
the lievore, who's gone throughall of the stages, and his
advocates acceptance, and isreally at peace with the fact
that there's a divorce. And thenthe spouse is just hearing about
this. And they're all over themap. And they don't know what to
do with this information. And soit can make those first few
weeks really kind of crazy foreverybody to leave, or is just
(07:56):
like bouncing between terror andrage and denial and everything
else and trying to save themarriage. They're desperate to
save the marriage. And sothey'll act in ways that are
unhelpful. And I'm alwayscoaching to leave or calm down
slower is faster. You know,we'll get there, but it's, it's
(08:16):
like, my dog who's your he'sthis little Puggle. And when I
first we first got him as apuppy, we put a leash on to take
him for a walk, and I pulled onhis leash, and he just sat down.
And when he would pull the otherdirection, and I think that's
what the levy will do when wepull on them, you know, because
(08:37):
they, they won't, they will gothe direction they're willing to
go when they're willing to go.
Yeah, go ahead.
Mark Hill (08:44):
Well, I've also seen revisionists thinking throughout
a case to where some they comein and they go, yes, we both
want the divorce. And then asyou go through the process, you
find out one really doesn't wantthe divorce. And they're not at
the same stage, they told you atthe outset. And when you discuss
it with them, they don't reallyhave a good memory of saying
that they were ready, you know?
Shawn Weber (09:07):
Well, I've seen people switch. I've seen people
start out as the one that wantedto leave and or maybe they
general word of advice don'tfile for divorce as a way to get
your spouse's attention. Right,because they may take you up on
it, you know. So I mean, I'veseen that happen where people
(09:27):
file for the divorce or threatenthe divorce thinking that it'll
get somebody's attention, andthey're like, Oh, hey, you know
what this idea of Gen four ispretty good. And then now you
don't want the divorce and tryto save the marriage, but it's
too late. You've done enoughdamage
Unknown (09:42):
and Shawn I'm curious.
This may be jumping ahead alittle bit. But if this is the
most dangerous time, what's thesecond most it seems like
there's also that moment I thinkof panic and finality as the
negotiations are concluded orthings are getting ready to be
finalized.
Shawn Weber (10:00):
the week they sign the MSA.
Peter Roussos (10:01):
Yeah, yeah!
Shawn Weber (10:02):
they signed the marital settlement agreement and
signed their papers to finalizethis. And they realize, oh, this
is really over. Yeah, you see,you see all kinds of weird
behavior that week too. Yeah.
Mark Hill (10:14):
But if you can engage the clients along the way, so
that it's a process, not anevent, in other words, and
normalize it, and to say thingslike, you know, you're gonna be
probably experienced these kindsof feelings, this stage, and
it's totally normal. That's whateveryone does, don't beat
(10:35):
yourself up about it. And that'sthe beauty of having the
resources of the three differentareas, the financial, the
emotional, and the legal.
Shawn Weber (10:44):
Yep. Well, I think, at the beginning, too, I think
people are smart, if they getinto a process or get with a
professional as soon aspossible. Even if they think
everything's gonna be fine. Getsome advice early, so that we
can help you because we've seenthis movie before. I just
(11:07):
finished with a this couple Iwas talking to you about
earlier, they were they had areally horrible first week, you
know, and they're cohabitingstill. And there was a little
bit of violence that hadhappened between it was kind of
situational violence, I don'tthink this is a pattern that's
going to be ongoing, butsomebody threw a hairbrush. And
(11:27):
then somebody got mad, puts afist through a wall. And, and
and, you know, those are themoments where the police might
get called, and then the wholecase could go really south from
there. But we had a mediationsession where we just spent the
entire time setting boundaries.
Okay, so which part of the houseis your part of the house? Can I
come into your bedroom withoutyour permission? You know, what,
(11:47):
what are we doing about evensilly things like, which side of
the fridge is who's, you know,just kind of setting the
boundaries so that people arebuilding this new muscle of now
we're single people, as opposedto married people, we shared
everything, we're single people,now we're, our boundaries have
to be respected. And that's anew thing for a
Peter Roussos (12:09):
lot of people.
And I think you in some ways,you you can't be too detailed or
upset differently, if you'regoing to err, to err on the side
of being over detailed in termsof defining the structure. What
are the rules of engagement,
Mark Hill (12:24):
I always say that when we have crafting, you know,
we can craft a maritalsettlement agreement to be as
detailed as you think you want.
Or we can craft it as detailedas we think it's going to need
to be right and the latter isbetter. Because you may need
something will come up at somepoint where you're gonna go back
and look at that document. Andyou might not like what you
(12:46):
sign. But the chances are, ifyou've signed it, you will
comply with it, because youagreed to it at the time. So
more detail is better.
Shawn Weber (12:57):
Yeah, you know, I think another piece of advice
that I would give folks as don'tmake major changes in the first
weeks. Sometimes people arelike, they want to go cancel
insurance policies, and theywant to sell cars, and they
wanna put their house on themarket. And they want to do this
and that. But I mean, Mark, yousaid this before on financial
issues, why wouldn't you want tomake major changes?
Mark Hill (13:16):
Well, because A, there's going to be restraining
orders coming up here, numberone, this file that says you
can't do that. And number two,it'll probably have the reverse
impact that you hope. In otherwords, if you think I'm going to
change the beneficiary on myretirement account, because I
won't be married to her anymore,that's probably not going to
make her feel very good andtrusting of you. And trust is
(13:40):
important, because we have tofoster that concept that they
can each trust what each othersaying, because this is a
voluntary process that we enter,yes, you'll find signing forms
under the penalty of perjury,and you better be forthright and
honest with what you're givingus in terms of numbers. But it's
still a voluntary process thatthey're both engaging in. And
(14:00):
you want to make sure that youdon't increase the level of
distrust that may be existingthat's causing the divorce, but
I
Shawn Weber (14:09):
don't I don't want to spend more money on her
health insurance. We're gettingdivorced, she should get her own
health insurance. What would yousay to that person?
Mark Hill (14:15):
I would say go talk to Shawn he's a lawyer. Explain
the issues that you'd be facingaround that. Literally, I would.
Also counselor, what does thatmean if you did that?
Shawn Weber (14:28):
Right. Well, there's also the issue of you
know, what, what would happen ifto this to your case, it would
actually cost more if you dothings that freak the other
person out? Yeah. Yeah,absolutely. person doesn't feel
good to have their insurancepulled out from under them. And
then my advice to that personwas make no major changes
because you owe fiduciary dutiesto the other spouse similar to
(14:51):
what you would owe a businesspartner. And so and the court
takes the fiduciary duty asserious as a heart attack. So
you don't want do major thingswithout the other person's
participation, because surpriseis the enemy of peace. You know,
if you, if you shock somebodywith some shot across the bow or
some major change, it's going tocause people to react and
(15:14):
sometimes overreact. And anyshot you had of having a divorce
that was less than six figuresstarts going down the tube.
Peter Roussos (15:23):
You know, I think one of the challenges to that,
you know, the dynamics thatdrove the dysfunction and the
disconnection between partnersis almost always are almost
always amplified when they'renavigating separation and
divorce. And I think that, thatif they're gonna find their way
to treating each other at thevery least more respectfully and
(15:45):
more appropriately, thinking interms of fairness, they've got
to be willing to aspire to that,you know, the realize they can't
be reenact reactive in from thatplace of hurt, because if they
do that it is just going to bedestructive. So when I hear the
question of, of somebodygrappling with whether or not
they want to support the otherperson's health care insurance,
(16:10):
the thing that I would wonderabout is so so why is it good
for your children, for example,if your soon to be ex spouse
sees, you know, doesn't havehealth insurance, how, what is
the greater good that you wantto commit yourself and work
towards with each other?
Bringing it back to this idea ofthere's going to be a bunch of
sacrifices that are have to bemade? How do you do that fairly.
(16:31):
But if they're not willing toaspire, beyond the present
moment, and the present hurt,those are the couples that will
struggle and will have the moreexpensive divorces? Absolutely,
Mark Hill (16:43):
yeah. And expense is almost exponential when you get
into litigation. And the mostexpensive divorces are failed
mediations, or collaborativecases, frankly, because they've
already can be really expensive.
So again, revisiting the conceptof Dave, we have a mission
statement here. What are whatare our highest and best
(17:05):
intentions, as we enter thisprocess? Something we can take
the clients back to say, tell mehow what's going on right now
fits with what you told me threemonths ago? Well,
Shawn Weber (17:17):
thank you, thank you for bringing that up.
Because the mission statementcan really be important at the
beginning. Right? Yeah. I mean,I like to spend time talking
about what are these governingvalues, what are these just no
brainer values that everybodyagrees to, that we can write
down, and, and then come back toit, it becomes a decision making
(17:38):
paradigm as we're going forward,you know, I, you know, and these
are no brainer things like, weboth want our kids to be
healthy. You know, I haven'ttalked to anybody that wants
their kids to be unhealthy.
Right, right, or, or we want tohave a mutually respectful
divorce or whatever theirparticular value is, and then
just come back to the mutuallyrespectful to cut your wife off
of the insurance policy.
Peter Roussos (18:02):
It says there's a there's a concept that I use all
the time with, with clients,whether I'm working in therapy,
or if I'm working in when I wasdoing collaborative work or
working in terms of mediationsupport. And the guy that
developed the psychotherapeuticmodel that I worked from
developed. And that's what herefers to as a two choice
dilemma. And this is a situationthat happens to us all the time
(18:25):
in life where we've got thesituation. And in response to
it, we've got two choices thatare available to us. And the
dilemma is that we wantdifferent choices than the ones
that are available. Or we wantboth of the choices. And so a
common one, I think in divorcecases is where we want to, to
(18:46):
protect ourselves, and do thatin a way that the other person
will experience as harsh. Whileat the same time we want the
other person to be consideratetowards us, or we want the other
person to be fair, and you justcan't put the two together. And
so that dilemma is the person'sgot to decide which of those
choices is more likely to leadto something positive. And you
(19:11):
know, it never works iscertainly not in what are
supposed to be egalitarianrelationships if we expect the
other person to do something, orto accept something that we
ourselves are not willing to door accept in return.
Mark Hill (19:23):
It goes back to that the idea if you have a proposal,
we presume it has value for you.
What value will it have for yourspouse and what value does it
have for the family becauseyou're still going to be if you
have children your family yourreform that you're still a
family
Peter Roussos (19:39):
yeah
Shawn Weber (19:39):
well I'm there's different kinds of defense you
know, some people have a defensewhere they kind of put a wall up
or they they put up thingsboundaries to protect themselves
and then there's the people likea good defense is a good
offense. And and they want toyou know, strike first because
they're frightened they strikeYeah, yeah. And and and a lot of
these I mean, you mentioned itearlier, Pete, a lot of this is
(20:02):
so fear driven, I don't knowwhat's going to happen to me, I
don't know what's coming. AndI've seen people that you would
think have really got their acttogether, you know, CEOs that
run big companies, absolutelyfreak out, and then do these
kinds of fight or flight kind ofthings. And so you can either
flee into your own little shell,or you can lash out, and it's
(20:24):
the lashing out that we'rereally worried about, although
the fleeing into your own shellisn't particularly helpful,
either, as
Unknown (20:33):
you know, is it also I think that there are these these
aspects of behavior. And it'strue that the people we love the
most are the ones that see, theparts of us that are, are at
times, least healthy, darkest,whatever. And so even what
you're describing how strikingit is, that, you know, the way
(20:55):
that the partners will behavetowards each other in ways that
they would never treat anybodyelse. So, it and I say that,
because if you take a titan ofindustry, and you think about
their capacity to make businessdecisions, and to manage
themselves in difficultsituations, in the service of a
business goal and objective, whostruggled to do that, in their
(21:19):
family relationships, but theyou know, there's a number of
ways where I think people givethemselves, well, I'll just
speak for themselves, where Iallow myself to behave in a way
that I wouldn't want, you know,other people to say, I think we
all do that. We do that as aspecies. And it's a willingness,
I think, to really confrontourselves and to face those
(21:41):
kinds of choice dilemmas, thatdetermines the extent to which,
in this context that we'retalking about, people are going
to be able to have a healthydivorce process, or respect
based divorce process that setsthe stage for them to be
lifelong, healthy andappropriate. And collaborative
coparents
Mark Hill (21:58):
You know, I liken it to basically, the difference
between how people behave,driving cars and walking as a
pedestrian is that it's thatsort of boundary around you that
allows you to be a jerk. Or dowalking on the streets and
Shawn Weber (22:15):
call I call him the good Sorry, sorry, Mark. I
didn't mean to talk. I was done.
I want you there's there's thekeyboard commandos they get on.
They're really good at gettingon Facebook and beating somebody
into a bloody pulp over apolitical issue, but they would
never talk like that to somebodyin person.
Mark Hill (22:34):
Yeah, yep. Same thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Shawn Weber (22:38):
Yeah. Well, I mean, then so you know, not
overreacting to things. That isprobably an important thing to
really be mindful of just take amoment when something weird
happens that you're notexpecting, and we get a
curveball that frightens you. Ialways tell people, you're not a
computer, it doesn't mean thatwhen somebody pushes your
button, you have to act in acertain way, we have this
(23:00):
ability between, you know,stimulus and reaction to govern
our thoughts. That's whatseparates us from the animals,
right. And so we can do that inour divorce case. So when the
stimulus happens, that kind ofscares us or frightens us or
makes us angry. The overreactiona lot of times makes it so much
(23:20):
worse.
Mark Hill (23:23):
And also, I think, when you're faced with the
divorce, is trying to thinkstrategically in terms of what
resources am I going to need toget through this, as opposed to
defensively and I need someoneto fight for me and protect me?
Wait a minute, let's think thisthrough what resources am I
(23:45):
going to need to be able to gothrough this continue to have
some kind of relationship withmy soon to be ex so that I can
be a decent co parent with?
Because that's, I mean, I'vesaid for years that I use the
children relentlessly in thisprocess. I mean, you know, the
one thing that kids agree on, issorry, the parents agree on is
that they love their kids. And,you know, as Sean has told, I
(24:10):
think more than one time, judgesdon't love your kids like you
do.
Shawn Weber (24:19):
Yeah, yeah. Judge said to me, I don't love your
kids. It's what he said to myclients. But yet you're asking
me to make a decision about yourchildren. You know, and that's
the truth. I mean, you want toget into the meat grinder of the
courthouse and do that. Butthink about what what reaction
(24:40):
Your kids will have, whatexperience they will have, what
experience you will have. Youknow,
Peter Roussos (24:46):
you know what I think Shawn was talking about
that initial two week period.
That is definitely I think thepotential to be way more
reactive time that I think theoverarching most important
objective is that they'reworking together. To turn the
temperature down. And in apractical sense, what that can
often mean is that they have tocreate more separation within
the home, that they're steeringclear of certain subjects, the
(25:09):
absolute importance of bothparties doing what they can visa
vie, healthy self care,exercise, you know, diet, sleep,
the avoidance of, of alcohol andsubstances, those are the things
that that absolutely poseadditional risk factors. And
then I think setting basicground rules about what they're
(25:30):
going to talk about and howthey're going to talk about in
this interim time, while thingsare being put in place and you
know, movement towards the, theresolving of issues like
temporary support that kind ofthing. But often it means really
trying to create moreseparation, while being under
the same roof
Shawn Weber (25:49):
rule, Mark, you and I had a case where we would beg
them not to talk about the case,yep. And then they would get in
a car and drive togethersomewhere. And they would, by
the time they got out of thatcar at destination, she's having
to call an Uber because she'snot gonna ride with him anymore,
this jerk and, and he's
Mark Hill (26:08):
just dropped him off on the side of the freeway, once
you remember the way to anappointment with the teenage son
who was having challenges, youknow, he literally dumped him on
the freeway, so get out of thecar. It's, it is difficult, when
(26:28):
you haven't ever had an intimaterelationship with someone not to
feel that it's appropriate tobring up anything you want to
talk about. But it's notproductive. And, and and, again,
I say to people, you've hired meor us to do this work. And now,
(26:49):
you're not going to use thatresource you're paying for for
that. Where's the sense in that?
You know, where's the value inthat?
Shawn Weber (26:58):
Well, I think a lot of it is Go ahead, Pete. Sorry.
Peter Roussos (27:01):
Or they end up paying us and paying more
because they want us to clean upthe mess.
Mark Hill (27:08):
Yes, yep. Yep.
And, you know, the idea thatpeople, people sometimes coming
in come in, obviously, everyonecomes in with their own story of
the marriage, okay, which isgoing to be different. You know,
we always say there's threestories. There's her story, his
story and what really happened,and we don't know what's true
out of the three of them. Butthe idea that you can get in
(27:31):
front of a court in front of ajudge and tell your story, and
the judge will understand whatan awful person the other is,
and give you everything. Thetruth of the matter is that
judges see two warring partieswho can't divide the furniture.
And they used to be able to makebabies, and there's not a lot of
sympathy there. And that's asurprise to people, I think when
(27:53):
they consider because they havea TV view of what happens in
court.
Shawn Weber (28:00):
Yeah. Yeah, the chances of you having that that
TV experience, I think a lot ofpeople are really unrealistic
about what happens at court now.
And if you ever want to, youknow, if you're contemplating
divorce, it's a, you might wantto just go to the courthouse and
watch what happens at the FamilyCourt. And you'll see that there
is no justice there. This is nota place where anybody cares
(28:23):
about your situation at all.
You're just one of the hordesone of the masses of people that
are there to take the time ofthe judge, and the clerks. And
you'll see that that venue isnot something's going to bring
you relief. If you want relief,then get with some professionals
(28:44):
that know how to help you have aconstructive dialogue. So this
becomes you know, as the adagesays, this is a problem to be
solved as opposed to battle tobe fought. And then and then you
can get to a place and it comesback to the thing that mark and
I've talked about before andthat is that, you know you what
kind of divorce story. Do youwant to come out of this with
(29:07):
like, what story you want yourchildren telling about how it
was when you got divorced?
Because we hear about both we Ihave the children coming into my
office and hiring me for theirdivorce. And they'll say to me,
oh my gosh, I don't want to belike my parents divorce was, you
know, or occasionally I get thatperson says, you know, our my
parents got divorced when I wasyoung, but but boy, they, they
(29:29):
sure put their kids first. And Iknew there was a battle but I I
didn't know necessarily what itwas. I knew there was some some
discussion and somedisagreement. But I always knew
that my parents loved me andthat was the most important
thing
Mark Hill (29:45):
that my son literally said that to me when I had the
courage when he was 19 to askhim. So what was it like growing
up for you? Well, your mama taudifferent I can't imagine you
guys ever been together? But Inever heard either one. If you
say a bad word about the other,and I knew you both loved me. I
mean, it still touches me thatboy. And so we did good. We did
(30:09):
a good job somehow. And it washard. And it was difficult at
times. So I'm sure for hercertainly was for me. But we put
him first we put him in -- it'slike, "how will this affect him
before we think about how itaffects us?" You know.
Shawn Weber (30:23):
Thanks for sharing that mark. Because I can tell
that sounds really emotional.
Mark Hill (30:28):
Yeah, I mean, that that was he's 40- 40 years old
now. So that was 21 years ago.
Shawn Weber (30:33):
That's a good divorce story. And so and I
think people that are listeningto this at home that maybe are
in those first two weeks and arefeeling hopeless, or scared, or
in a in a dark hole, that thereis a way out, yeah, that there
is a there is a light at the endof the tunnel, and I get it, you
got to get through the tunnel.
But there is a way to do this.
And you can get out. Okay, onthe other side,
Peter Roussos (30:55):
I want to ask you both. And this may be something
that you have talked about inanother podcast. But you know,
part of what we're talking aboutis how people prepare
themselves. If they've made thedecision to divorce, how do they
prepare themselves, and reallythink of it in terms of how do
they prepare themselves tomanage their fear, their hurt
(31:15):
their disappointment, so thatthey can engage in it in an
appropriate and really missionstatement focused way, if you
will. To get to that healthyside,
Shawn Weber (31:24):
one of the first things I will advise them to do
is to call Peter Russo's and,and get some, you know, meet
with a mental healthprofessional who can coach you
through this so that you canprepare yourself and bring your
best self to the table.
Peter Roussos (31:39):
Well, I mean, Shawn, I appreciate you saying
that. And I want to tell youjust a conversation that I have
with people who are coming to mefor marital therapy. And I tell
them straight up that I thinkthat I think that there are
healthy and and I do a lot ofwork with couples who are at the
very, very end of their ropes,who have been in couples therapy
(32:02):
before feel like it didn't helpthem. And the conversation I
like to have with them, I thinkis important to have with them
is that I do believe that thereare healthy and valid reasons to
divorce. And I also believe thatmost divorces happen before the
couple has done the kind of workthat I think is necessary for
marital partners to reallyunderstand why they're
(32:24):
struggling. And to understandwhat the potential for change is
between them, so that they canmake a more fully informed
decision about whether or notthe marriage can be what they
wanted. And that if that workisn't happened, I think that it
is really important that ithappened particularly if kids
are involved. That's my, my bias
Shawn Weber (32:44):
well, and that can happen as part of the divorce.
Right? You can have
Peter Roussos (32:47):
absolutely!
Shawn Weber (32:47):
conversation about well, how can I now because your
family is not in and we've saidthat before these people are all
still here. So how can I have aproductive relationship with
this person, right. And and sothat I can have a a productive
exit from the relationship orchange of the relationship. And
(33:12):
I think a lot of the skills thatyou probably teach them as part
of their marriage counseling areskills that they can have in
their divorce process. In fact,I can always tell when somebody
comes into mediation, wherethey've been the marriage,
family, and marriage therapy, orcouples counseling, because they
use, they use skills thatthey've learned how they see
(33:33):
each other, and they listen toeach other, and they repeat what
the other person is sad, andthey try to show empathy. And
that makes a huge differencewhen I'm mediating with somebody
because they can take a momentand they can be a little more
mindful of their own reactions.
And they can take them home isokay. Yeah, well, what I'm
trying to say is this, and I seewhere you're coming from. And
I'm like, I was glad when thathappens. And because they've had
some preparation.
Peter Roussos (33:56):
When I hear you talking about those kinds of
couples, they sound to me likecouples who, who maybe it's it's
arriving at a painful decision,I think that the decision to
divorce is, is almost always notalways a painful decision. In
fact, I would say in the goingon 29 years that I've been in
practice, I've had one case witha couple that I worked with it
(34:20):
was in fact it was acollaborative divorce case,
where one of the partners hadabsolutely no ambivalence
whatsoever. And that waspathological. I mean, to really
be spoke what was going on interms of their dynamics within
the relationship? I think thatthat what you're talking about
are couples that sounds likethey made the investment in
(34:42):
therapy, and then they face thereality that they can't have the
kind of marital relationshipthat they want to have that that
and maybe it was one of themreaching that conclusion, but it
was a less reactive decisionbecause they did some of that
work.
Shawn Weber (34:56):
Yeah, so So I think going to therapy before you get
the divorce. This is a good ideabecause number, even if it's
just individual counseling,because you can, you can tell
what are the patterns in my ownpersonal behavior that got me in
trouble here. So that you canthen kind of avoid pitfalls as
you get into the what is anemotional drama? When you get
into the divorce, you have totalk to your spouse about it.
(35:19):
I'll go ahead
Peter Roussos (35:21):
In Part I'm curious for the two of you. In
Part, I was struck by the wayyou said it and in wish that
there was more of this peopleliterally going to observe a
court process and family. How dopeople appropriately informed
themselves of what they shouldexpect, financially? And within
(35:42):
the legal the family lawframework? What would you love
to see if you could, you know,if you could you could ordain,
what it is that people need todo in order to get the license
to divorce? Well, those required
Shawn Weber (35:57):
that's really good stuff. I think, number one, I
would I mentioned the therapy,number two would be looking at
the financial picture. So youhave absolute clarity about what
happens when you get divorced,you know, and that and I'd love
sending people to mark andpeople could sit down with Mark,
and he could, he could show thatthis is what the pie is. And
(36:19):
this is what will happen. Mostlikely, if there's a divorce,
and this is the pain that youwill suffer as a result of these
decisions. And, and here's somethings that you need to think
about if it is going to be adivorce. And then they can also
meet with someone like me andget the legal advice. This is
what will happen legally, thisis what will happen with your
(36:39):
money legally. Yes, that's thatthing you thought that was your
separate property is not yourseparate property according to
the law, or whatever. And all
Mark Hill (36:48):
those expenses you write off on your business are
not going to be treated that wayfor income, right? Available for
support that is, things likethat, where people have
misconceptions quite reasonably,because if you have a business,
some people put their grocerybills on there, which may not be
right. But if they can get awaywith it with their accountant,
(37:09):
that'll do it, that's not gonnafly when we're working out how
to do how to Despit expenseincome,
Shawn Weber (37:15):
or having the clarity that if you get
divorced, you will have areduction in your standard of
living. Two
Mark Hill (37:20):
houses cost more than one? Right?
Shawn Weber (37:23):
There's no way around it no way around it
mathematically impossible forhim to go any other way. Yep.
And so I can run support numbersfor people, I can let them see
this. If if a judge were todecide this, this is probably
what your support would be. Youknow, and that, that kind of
mindful planning and thinkingabout where I'm headed, I have
(37:44):
seen people decide, oh, well, Idon't want to do this. Yeah,
it's really reality. We'reunderstanding that you're going
to divide your retirement inhalf. That's sobering when you
realize that your retirement issplit and divided by two. Yeah,
whether you like it or not,yeah, you earned this, you
worked your whole life tocontribute to this. And yes,
(38:05):
you're gonna have to divide itin half with the person you're
mad at.
Mark Hill (38:09):
And that business you worked in for 28 years, and you
built up to that, not only doyou have to pay your spouse for
half of the value, but now theincome is that you derive from
it is going to be showed to?
Shawn Weber (38:22):
And again, can I just add one more piece to this,
and that is to learn how to bemindful, yeah, learn how to be
present. And what I mean by thatis being able to observe
yourself and your own reactionsin a dispassionate way. So that
you can logically assess howyou're behaving and how you're
(38:43):
reacting with other people. Ifyou can do that, that will take
you a very long way in thedivorce process towards having a
peaceful resolution as opposedto the warfare and think in
Mark Hill (38:55):
terms of outcome.
What's the outcome I would liketo see is everything I'm doing,
going to give me the best chanceof guessing or approaching that
outcome. And if people can thinkthat way, it often stops them
from the self destructivebehavior we all see all the
time.
Peter Roussos (39:16):
I heard it said this is many years ago at a
training and it was a couplestherapy training. And the
presenter was talking abouthelping people to learn how to
be curious rather than furious.
Shawn Weber (39:28):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, that's really good. Oh, Ihad a couple today like this.
Like, he asked a legitimatequestion about a proposal that
she was making. And she wasfurious at the question. How
dare you ask that? And I said,Well, hang on a moment. Is there
an answer to the question? Youknow, let's stop a moment. Okay,
(39:50):
I get it that you're pissed thathe's not just okay with this.
But he had a question. What'syour answer? You know, you And
then so when she took a momentto kind of dispassionately think
about what the answer was, sheactually withdrew her proposal.
Mark Hill (40:08):
So how would that have worked, if they've been
having that discussion over thekitchen table?
Shawn Weber (40:14):
Somebody would have flipped the table. I don't know.
Mark Hill (40:18):
That's my point is that you find the resources to
help you through this, becauseit's not easy.
Shawn Weber (40:25):
I do tell people, I'm like, you fight well. But I
want you to know, I'm aprofessional. And I can help you
fight in a way that isproductive. My job is to help
you resolve your conflict andfind a pathway forward, you
know, get into that world you'reexperiencing so you can find a
(40:46):
pathway. Well, we've beentalking a long time, and I feel
like we can keep going. There's,you know, we started with Oh, my
gosh, the terror of the firsttwo weeks, and then we really
got into almost a Zen discussionabout what can you do with your
attitudes and with, you know, inpreparation to make sure that
this process is, is going totell a good divorce story for
(41:08):
you. The outcome can bepositive.
Peter Roussos (41:14):
You know, as you as you said that Charlotte was
thinking about just even theimportance of being able to
normalize, for people look,these, these next couple of
weeks are going to be reallytough. Yeah, I plan on that
prepare for that, know thatthat's normal. And if it if it's
less difficult than youanticipate wonderful, but this
is all about setting thefoundation for a process going
(41:37):
forward. That is respect based,that is appropriate that is
really guided by an aspirationfor a lifelong relationship with
each other post divorce. But tonormalize that, it's it's gonna
be hard. It always is. andnormalize
Mark Hill (41:53):
the fact that financially, it's going to be
hard, in other words, is that,you know, my take two to five
years to recover from a divorcefinancially. And candidly, if
you're at a certain point inlife, you may never recover. And
you may have to change yourexpectations dramatically. And I
always say to people, when theydon't like the numbers, I'm
(42:14):
sorry, I just can't make them doanything different. The numbers
are what they are.
Shawn Weber (42:21):
So I've been taking some notes. While I've been
talking, I've got sometakeaways. Okay, so just to kind
of summarize where we've been.
So when you find out that thedivorce is going to happen, and
you get into those first fewmoments, the first thing is
don't overreact, right. Don'tpanic, then don't make major
changes. Until you've talked toprofessionals and figured it
out. Get advice early, ratherthan waiting for things to go
(42:45):
badly, and then get advice. Andbe prepared to set boundaries
like that Robert Frost poem,fences make better neighbors, so
be ready to build a fence thatis going to be useful and set a
boundary. And then the lastthing if you got kids put your
kids first. I miss anything,
Mark Hill (43:07):
is a good summary.
Peter Roussos (43:08):
Yeah. Beautiful.
Shawn Weber (43:11):
Somebody write that down. Okay. So let me ask Pete,
you know, if people want to talkto someone about me emotionally
preparing themselves for adivorce or for a relationship
ending, who should they call?
Peter Roussos (43:29):
Well, off the top of my head shot. You know, this
is something that that, that Ilove to try to help people with
it. And quite honestly, my hopeis that I get to see them before
they reach that point. But thisis certainly I absolutely
(43:51):
believe that it's in life'stoughest circumstances where the
greatest growth opportunitiesare. So if people are
contemplating a divorce, and I'dlike to talk to somebody about
what that means and what it'sgoing to take from them and for
them in order to have it be agrowth, opportunity and respect
based and appropriate. I wouldbe happy to talk with them about
(44:12):
that. They can certainly reachme by my website, which is Peter
Russo's dot com. Got a lot ofinformation there about my
background and my approach,couple of videos of interviews
that that I've done and they canemail me directly from my
website.
Shawn Weber (44:30):
Thanks, Peter.
Roussos Peter, like it soundsthen Roussos r o u s. S. O S.
Yeah.
Peter Roussos (44:37):
Exactly. Yeah,
Shawn Weber (44:38):
either. roussos.com There you have. Yeah. And Mark.
They're worried about theirmoney in preparing for this big
major event. What should theydo?
Mark Hill (44:48):
Go to my website.
Company is Pacific divorceManagement, LLC. My website is
packed divorce.com PAC di Borce.com and our contact form is
now working?
Shawn Weber (45:02):
Well, it's about
Mark Hill (45:04):
time. It's about time, but it is. So please fill
out a contact form and we willrespond within the next business
day.
Shawn Weber (45:15):
And if you need to work worried about the legal or
if you just have a dispute thatneeds resolving My website is
Weber dispute resolution.comWe're in the business of
connecting people with themediator that can help them
resolve their dispute so thatthey don't have to have a fight.
They can solve a problem. Again,that's Weber dispute
resolution.com
Mark Hill (45:36):
And that's Weber would one be like the grill?
Shawn Weber (45:40):
That's right, or the brand. People come at me
with brand? Okay, I didn't evenknow there was a sandy Alright
guys, well, this was fun. Pete,welcome aboard.
Peter Roussos (45:52):
Oh, thank you guys. This was a lot of fun. I
really appreciate being able toshare the time with you. Thank
you.
Shawn Weber (45:58):
All right, and those of you in podcast land.
Thanks for listening. And if youliked what you heard, please
tell someone and give us a like.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of the three wisemen
divorce, money, Psych, and law.
If you liked what you heard, besure to subscribe. Leave us a
review and share with others whomay be in a similar place. Until
(46:20):
next time, stay safe, healthyand focused on a positive bright
future. This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
Every family law case is unique.
So no legal, financial or mentalhealth advice is intended during
this podcast. If you need helpwith your specific situation,
feel free to schedule a time tospeak with one of us for a
(46:43):
personal consultation.
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