September 25, 2024 • 57 mins
What if you could transform anger into a tool for growth and understanding? We bring you a thought-provoking conversation with Dr. James Walton, Ph.D., a licensed family therapist and Eureka Award recipient. Together, we explore the intricate dynamics of anger during divorce and offer practical strategies for managing these intense emotions. Learn how to separate feeling angry from outward expressions of anger and why making conscious choices about our reactions is vital for healthy communication.
Sit down with us as we unpack techniques to handle difficult conversations with grace, especially when emotions run high. Ever wondered how to stay calm and collected? Discover the power of pausing conversations, modeling calm behavior, and reframing complaints into constructive proposals. Dr. Walton shares invaluable insights on how feeling heard and validated can significantly reduce anger. Additionally, we delve into the importance of creating a mission statement to guide respectful interactions, both in personal and professional settings.
But that's not all! Our conversation takes a deeper turn as we discuss managing conflicts during meetings, employing "I" statements, and the role of curiosity in resolving disputes. Dr. Walton offers wisdom on understanding the underlying emotions masked by anger, such as fear or shame, and how family history impacts relationship dynamics. We also highlight the importance of professional dispute resolvers and the benefits of restorative practices. Whether you're navigating divorce or just seeking better ways to communicate, this episode is packed with actionable advice and heartfelt stories to help you foster healthier, more constructive relationships.
Here's a shout-out to Feedspot, who recognized The Three Wisemen of Divorce as one of California's top law podcasts!
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shawn Weber (00:00):
Well, gentlemen, guess what?
What we have been honored byFeedspot.
You can go to a URLpodcastsfeedspotcom and they
rate podcasts and we are amongthe 20 best California law
podcasts.
Peter Roussos (00:21):
Which begs the question how many legal podcasts
are there in California?
Well, that's a very goodquestion.
Mark Hill (00:28):
Well, apparently, from the website I'm looking at
here, there are 551.
And we are in the top 20.
Shawn Weber (00:36):
We are indeed Well, according to this, we're number
nine.
I don't know what the criteriais.
Peter Roussos (00:42):
We're in the top 10.
Shawn Weber (00:43):
We're in the top 10 .
So don't even you know.
Yeah, really Well, I want toknow how much of these other
people suck for us to be in thetop 10.
Peter Roussos (00:51):
No, how much did they, the eight, have to pay?
Mark Hill (00:56):
to get above us.
Shawn Weber (00:57):
To get above us, right?
Yeah, really, but no, I think.
Peter Roussos (01:01):
I say the election is rigged.
Mark Hill (01:14):
The election is rigged.
The election is rigged, yes,yes.
Peter Roussos (01:16):
Well you know, I used to identify as a legal
podcast, but now I identify as adivorce podcast.
Shawn Weber (01:20):
OK, well guys all kidding aside, I think this is
really cool.
I think it's a singular honorand I'm very pleased and happy.
No, I think it's a singularhonor and I'm very pleased and
happy.
Mark Hill (01:25):
Yeah, very, very appreciative that people out
there are paying attention,because we do put a lot of real
effort into this.
As irreverent as we may appearat sometimes, this is serious
stuff and we really hope that ithelps people.
Shawn Weber (01:39):
Yeah, so just a shout out to Feedspot
F-E-E-D-S-P-O-T.
Their URL ispodcastsfeedspotcom and then the
one we're on is just thatwebsite with forward slash,
california underscore law,underscore podcasts.
So if you want to find us onthere and other, there's other.
(02:00):
I'm actually going to check outsome of these other podcasts
because they look good and we'rejust pleased that people are
listening to something thatwe're doing yes, many, many
thanks for each spot.
Very cool, thank you welcome tothe three wise men of divorce
money, psych and law podcast.
Sit down with the californiadivorce experts financial
(02:24):
divorce consultant Mark Hill,psychologist Scott Weiner and
attorney Sean Weber for a frankand casual conversation about
divorce, separation,co-parenting and the difficult
decisions real people like youface during these tough times.
We know that if you are lookingat divorce or separation, it
can be scary and overwhelming.
(02:44):
With combined experience ofover 70 years in divorce and
conflict management, we are herefor you and look forward to
helping by sharing our uniqueideas, thoughts and perspectives
on divorce, separation andco-parenting.
Dr. James Walton (03:07):
Hi, sean, it's nice to see you.
Shawn Weber (03:12):
Hi James, hi Pete, hi Mark, hi.
So James, welcome to the ThreeWise Men of Divorce.
Well, thank you.
Dr. James Walton (03:26):
You may find us to be the three foolish men
of divorce, but no, I'll takeyou at your word that you're the
three wise men, so so so Jamesis.
Shawn Weber (03:35):
This is James Walton, he's a PhD, he'sa he is
a psychologist and you're alicensed family therapist.
Yes, la area.
I've known James through ourwork with Collaborative Practice
California, which is thestatewide California group for
promoting collaborative practiceand peacemaking in the state of
(03:56):
California, and James was justawarded the Eureka Award.
Congratulations.
Peter Roussos (04:05):
That's actually very prestigious.
Dr. James Walton (04:08):
Thank you, I was really shocked by it.
Actually, I was in the middleof dinner and I'm listening to
them talking about the guy and Ithought I should know this
person.
Shawn Weber (04:15):
I think everyone on this podcast right now is a
Eureka Award recipient.
I think all of us have receivedit at one point or another, so
you are among elite people.
Wow, I feel honored.
Now I feel like we're the fourwise men of divorce.
But you, you do a lot of workwith um divorcing couples in los
(04:40):
angeles.
You do a lot of counseling, Iknow you do a lot of
collaborative coaching I do, andyour website it's
latherapistcom.
Yes, and there's just atreasure trove of information
there, things that you canpurchase and download.
Dr. James Walton (04:59):
Yeah, I try to put a lot of information on
there for people that they canjust some useful information and
there's some free stuff thatpeople can information on there
for people that they can justthey can some useful information
.
And there's some free stuffthat people can download on
there as well that can behelpful for them.
And I know we're going to betalking about anger today and
anger the thing that I wantpeople to really understand
(05:19):
about anger that it's thehandmaiden of a divorce.
So when people are goingthrough divorce, they're going
to be experiencing anger andthat's a normal, natural thing
for people.
And to understand that anger isboth an emotion and it's both a
(05:39):
behavior.
So it's emotion and behavior.
And the thing is about emotionsis they kind of overwhelm us
and take us over and we may nothave a whole lot of control over
how we feel about something,but we have a whole lot of
control over how we express itand we have a whole lot of
(06:00):
control over our behavior andwhat we're going to do.
So when it comes to anger anddivorce, we have this delicate
balance between what we'refeeling and then how we want to
express it, and the fulcrum orthe center point of that is you
is the decisions that you make,and we're the ones that are
(06:22):
really in control of what we sayand what we do and we're the
ones that are really in controlof what we say and what we do.
Shawn Weber (06:28):
I love that.
Yeah, there's that spacebetween that stimulus and
response, right when somebodysays something that's triggering
to me and I can then choose inthat space of reaction how I'm
going to behave then after that.
Dr. James Walton (06:40):
Right, yeah, but the thing is, a lot of
people just they experience anemotion and immediately they
react and respond and they say Ican't help it.
You know you made me angry.
Well, actually, what we need tounderstand is nobody makes you
angry but yourself, and you knowhow we make ourselves angry.
Shawn Weber (07:04):
How do we do that?
Dr. James Walton (07:05):
By the thoughts we tell ourselves about
the situation.
Yeah okay, so you can take anyangering situation you like and
you can just imagine I'm goingto put 100 people in a room.
Will all 100 people be angryabout that?
Chances are no.
Mark Hill (07:29):
About that, chances are no, and that's because each
person is telling themselvessomething a little different
about whatever that experienceis, one thing I find that
happens, james, is thatsometimes a couple will get in
front of me and finally theyhave what they perceive as an
arbiter who will listen to theirarguments and tell them they're
right, and you know that's.
(07:50):
We have to disavow them of thatvery quickly, and I always urge
people you know, I think I'mtelling the same story but in a
different way.
I said how can we be strategicabout this rather than emotional
?
How can this become part of thestrategy for you to get what
you want?
That is making you frustratedright now.
Dr. James Walton (08:13):
That's great.
What you're doing is you'retaking them out of you know what
we could call left right brain,where there are emotions, and
you're putting them into leftbrain, which is, let's, how are
we going to solve this?
Pulling them away from theiremotional experiences.
Sometimes people have a realhard time getting out of that
(08:34):
and they kind of look at us asjudges, like we're going to sit
there and we're going to alignwith that person and say you
over here, you're the bad one.
Mark Hill (08:45):
It's this jerk and everything would be fine.
Dr. James Walton (08:47):
Yeah, when we're in those cases, I tell
people look, we're not yourjudge, we're not the jury, we're
here to help you express yourdesires, your interests and even
your emotions.
Because sometimes, when peopleare able to express what they're
feeling, but they have to putit into words, you know people
(09:09):
like will slam the table withtheir fist and they think
they're expressing a feeling andthey're not.
They're expressing pounding afist, and when they do that, the
recipient has to process whatthat means to them, and so
whatever their history aboutsomeone slamming a fist on the
table means to them brings up areaction.
(09:30):
It's not clear communication.
Now you're having to deal withnot only slamming the fist on
the table, but you have to dealwith the original issue.
That was about the anger.
So what I let people know islike okay, so when you do a
physical action like that,you're not putting it into words
.
Put your anger into words, tellpeople what you're angry about.
Shawn Weber (09:55):
Oh, it's like what I used to tell my kids use your
words, yeah, but I mean that'sreally powerful because and kind
of going back to what Mark wassaying the strategic approach,
the strategic thinking OK ispounding on the table, really
accomplishing what you want here.
What do you want?
That's why I always come backto what do you want?
(10:16):
You're angry about something?
What is it that you want tochange?
And get them to articulate thatinstead of pounding on a table.
Dr. James Walton (10:23):
Right, because when you pound on a table, what
do you do?
You create fear, yeah, and whathappens when you create?
Shawn Weber (10:31):
fear.
People go into all kinds ofcrazy fight or flight places
right.
Dr. James Walton (10:35):
Yeah, they back away, they cover their ears
, they want to get away from thething that's frightening them.
That's their first impulse.
And you're not creatingconversation.
You're not getting across thepoint you want to get across
because when you're creatingfear, you're trying to dominate,
and if you're using your angerto dominate the other person,
(11:00):
you don't have a dialogue.
There's no conversation goingon.
And if that person who's afraidacquiesces because of your big
emotions, you're going to createresentment.
And now resentment becomes atoxin in the negotiating and it
becomes a toxin in in in thatrelationship moving forward.
(11:24):
Because acquiescence is notcollaborative, acquiescence is
not all people are being heard.
It's one person being crushedand another one dominating.
Shawn Weber (11:38):
Yeah, I had a person that came in the other
day and they said I need to hireyou because you know my husband
won't do what I tell him.
And I thought, OK, this isgoing to go well.
And then she spent the wholetime just kind of yelling at him
and screaming at him and and Isaid, you know, maybe we ought
to come up with a differentstrategy.
So no, I'm, I'm going to standup to him.
He's going to hear what I haveto say.
(12:01):
And I kept asking her well,what do you think that's
accomplishing in getting whatyou want?
So, is what you want just toyell at him, or is what you want
something else?
Dr. James Walton (12:09):
Well, sean, you really bring up a great
point here, and that is she issaying he's going to hear what I
have to say.
Shawn Weber (12:16):
Damn it, she's going to hear this right.
Dr. James Walton (12:18):
Yeah, one of the best ways of getting
somebody to drop their anger isallowing them to feel like
they've been heard, and so ifshe is saying damn it he or I
don't know if you can swear onthis show.
Can you believe that?
Okay, Like damn it, You've gotto listen to me.
You don't?
You never hear what I'm saying?
(12:39):
Well, there's a clue rightthere that this person doesn't
feel like she's being heard.
There's a clue right there thatthis person doesn't feel like
she's being heard.
So we have to create, maybe, anenvironment where she can be
heard but be able to expressherself in her big girl words,
rather than in yelling andshouting, which is acting out
(12:59):
right.
Mark Hill (13:00):
Peter, years ago we had a case together with you and
Blima and that's like Peter.
Years ago we had a casetogether with you and Blima and
I remember I was very as theneutral.
I was very anxious that theywere starting to have this fight
and I wanted to fix them and Iwanted to stop it and I wanted
to jump in and you guys just letthem go.
And I felt secure enough withyou guys there that if they had
(13:25):
to be stopped, you would stopthem.
And then, when we debriefed itlater, the synopsis that I took
away from it was well, they justhad to have that conversation,
as heated as it was.
Peter Roussos (13:34):
Well, one of the things that I'll often say to
people in a conversation likethat is hey, is this the
conversation that the two of youthink you need to have?
Because if it is, I don't wantto get in the way of it.
It doesn't look particularlyeffective or efficient to me,
(13:54):
and I think what that connectswith is really, for shifts
towards better communication tohappen, there has to be personal
responsibility, has to be takenfor self-management, the way
that people are managingthemselves, particularly when
they're upset.
I'm always curious and oftenwill say to people hey, do you
(14:15):
ever get really pissed off atwork the way you're feeling
towards your spouse or soon tobe ex-spouse now?
And most people say oh,absolutely.
Well, do you ever talk to yourboss or colleagues the way you
talk to your spouse?
And usually the answer is noand I'll say well, why I
wouldn't get away with it, whichis a really powerful
acknowledgement ofself-management and personal
(14:38):
responsibility that they're nottaking in at least the
conversations that they'rehaving with their spouse for
example.
Dr. James Walton (14:46):
Absolutely it is, and in fact it's about their
understanding that they're incontrol.
Right, they have control ofwhat they're going to say, and
they're not going to say thesame thing to their boss that
they would to their spouse,although they might be the same
feelings, they've moderatedthemselves.
(15:10):
And so you don't want peoplelike if you have people
exploding in your office at eachother and screaming, you don't
want them to continue that kindof conversation, because that
actually doesn't create anythingpositive at the end of it.
There are too many toxicemotions happening at that
moment, so you want to stop itsomehow.
You want to get them toseparate and then maybe talk
each of them down and come backto have that conversation.
(15:33):
We're not avoiding it, butwe're avoiding that emotionality
.
Peter Roussos (15:37):
Well, I would say , james, that 95% of the time
when I say to a couple, if youneed to have this conversation
the way that you're having it,I'm not going to get in the way
of it 95% of the time that isenough of a pause for them to
stop themselves and to say, no,this isn't effective, and to
(16:01):
begin a shift.
Mark Hill (16:01):
Or even greet them I do a similar thing, pete.
I say you know, we can keepgoing down this road if you
think it's going to beproductive and help the case
move forward more quickly.
And I'm greeted by silence,total silence.
And then I have to restart theconversation, you know, in a way
that hopefully brings thevalence down.
Shawn Weber (16:25):
You know, one of the things I like to do you've
seen me do this, mark,somebody's just completely
losing it, and I sit back for amoment and let them kind of do
what they're going to do.
And then I'm like, ok, hang on,let me help.
And then I'll actually modelthe breathing.
I'll go OK, that was hard,wasn't it?
And I'll go okay, that was hard, wasn't it.
(16:47):
And I'll pause.
Can we talk about this in a waythat maybe is more effective,
you know?
And then we'll go through thecoaching and helping them kind
of interact on that.
Mark Hill (16:58):
But I think another thing you'll do, Sean, is you'll
say I think I hear a proposal.
Yeah, Can we put this in termsof a proposal?
Shawn Weber (17:06):
Because then you're moving them onto the other side
of the brain as James just saidyeah, a complaint is a proposal
in disguise.
Dr. James Walton (17:13):
I always say yeah, yeah, excellent, that is
an excellent thing to do is toget them into the left side of
the brain with their thoughts.
Sometimes, if it's reallydrastic, you can knock over a
glass of water.
Shawn Weber (17:28):
They want to help, or, unlike the couple I had that
actually hurled a cup of hotcoffee at each other.
That's not what you're talkingabout, but like just
inadvertently knock over a glassof water.
Dr. James Walton (17:41):
Yeah, and you could do that.
It completely disruptseverything that's going on.
I love it, and people sometimeshave a compulsion to try to
help to clean it up and say, oh,you can work together, so let's
work together on this.
That's clever, but it you knowit can stop everything for a
moment and get them to refocus.
You can also say you can alsosay to them okay, what did you
(18:03):
hear her say to you?
Because the way that you candrain anger off is people first
of all being able to say okay,what you're saying, I heard what
you said.
What you said makes sense.
I don't agree with it, but whatyou said makes sense to me and
when people feel heard, theiranger level drops dramatically.
Shawn Weber (18:27):
Yeah, so I guess I want to kind of pivot a little
bit.
Um, if I'm the, if I'm a persongoing through the divorce, so
we know what we're going to do.
But if I'm a person goingthrough the divorce and I'm just
feeling rage right in themeeting, or I know I'm afraid
I'm going to fear rage, I've hadpeople say I can't even be in
(18:48):
the same room, this person.
I lose my mind, right, right.
Um, what would you say to thatperson as far as preparing for
the meeting and and thenmanaging themselves during the
meeting so they can beproductive and not just simply a
rage fest?
Dr. James Walton (19:04):
Well, first I would create a mission statement
, right, and I'd have themwell-versed in their mission
statement and one of the thingsmight be we speak to each other
respectfully.
Usually I get that put in theresomewhere and we are able to
control our anger.
If it's someone like that, youget that put in there somewhere.
(19:27):
So, yeah, I get the commitmentto that before we go into the
meeting.
And then I ask I say, look, ifI feel like we're going off that
(19:48):
part of the mission statement,do I have your permission to
stop the meeting and for us toeither take a break and calm
ourselves down or to recalibrateourselves during the meeting
and get a yes from them?
So if something is starting togo off the rails, that's already
prepped in the background andI'll say I think right now is a
good time for us to take a break, because when people are really
angry with ourselves and we'reangry with each other, you're
not going to get any logic outof them, you're not going to get
any agreements out of them andthey're not even hearing what
(20:10):
the other person's saying.
So, really, when they're goingat it, you want to separate them
.
You want to do something tobreak that Break that cycle.
Break that cycle, get themcentered again so that they can
come back in and kind of refresh, and then, like off on the side
, I would say, okay, let's dosome breathing, because we've
practiced breathing.
The first thing you want to dois get your heart rate down when
you're angry, because if yourheart rate is racing too fast it
(20:35):
knocks off your cognitiveprocessing.
You want to get out of.
There's a little jargon I'llthrow in.
Your deep limbic system iswhere you have the emotional
experiences.
You want to bring theprefrontal cortex, which is
where logic and reasoning go on.
You want to bring that backonline and so, off on your own,
you want to do some breathingwith them to help recenter them
(20:56):
and then say, okay, what's yourpriority here?
What is it that you want theother person to know, because
screaming and raging at themisn't going to help.
What is it that you want themto know about you?
What is it that you want themto understand?
Mark Hill (21:10):
And let's find some words to use that, and use I
words, not you words.
Dr. James Walton (21:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Talk about yourself.
Yeah, exactly.
Mark Hill (21:19):
When I've tried to move in that direction.
Well, you always and you never,always and never are words that
I always.
I tend to find our conversationstoppers, not starters.
Dr. James Walton (21:37):
They are.
Yeah, that's very true.
You want people to talk about I, how I feel, or what my needs
are.
Very true, you want people totalk about I, how I feel, or
what my needs are, um, not whatyou never do.
Yeah, again, you is one ofthose words where people pull
back and you want to bring themtowards you I always say the
sith only deal in absolutes, youknow.
Shawn Weber (22:02):
so this, this, whenever it's an absolute
statement never and always.
Really, is it really never?
Is it really always?
Yeah, you get down to OK.
Well, what is the thing thatyou want to change?
So that come back to what Ialways say.
The complaint is is a proposalin disguise.
So what is?
There's something you're upsetabout that's making you agitated
(22:23):
, uncomfortable, angry, andthat's a state of affairs that
you want to change.
So let's articulate what youwant to change so that maybe you
won't be in a state of angerall the time.
Dr. James Walton (22:35):
I mean, maybe you will, but Well, you just put
it in a request form, don't you?
You say, okay, what do you wantto request of the other person?
Shawn Weber (22:46):
I would like you to stop leaving your toenail
clippings on the coffee table.
Dr. James Walton (22:51):
Okay, excellent.
And then how I might coachsomebody into saying that is I
would like you to stop leavingyour toenail clippings on the on
the coffee table and give areason why because it, because
it looks really disgusting to meand and it makes me feel really
upset.
And then you can put therequest in would you mind not
doing that?
Would you mind scooping them upor whatever the request would
(23:13):
be?
And you get you know, yes, no,or I'll think about it.
Shawn Weber (23:20):
And do you find, James, that there's anger?
I've heard this before Anger isa secondary emotion to
something else.
Dr. James Walton (23:27):
Many times it is, many times it is, sometimes
it's not, but many times it is,and the secondary emotions might
be shame or grief or fear orhurt.
And if you can get them toacknowledge or name what, those
like they're angry.
Okay, what's behind the anger?
Well, I'm afraid.
(23:48):
What are you afraid of?
I'm afraid that I'm going to bealone and homeless.
Okay, so, let's verbalize that.
Um, alone and homeless, and?
And?
Okay, so, let's, let'sverbalize that.
So so, instead of like justraging, express, you know, I'm
afraid, I'm really afraid I'mgoing to be homeless.
Well, now we can address thatright.
Mark Hill (24:05):
It gives an entree, doesn't it?
Because I can say now that wecan look at your finances, we
can go through your cash flow,we can help you model something
so that you won't be livingunder a bus shelter.
Dr. James Walton (24:18):
Exactly yeah, because that gives us something
to do.
Now we can address thatinterest that they have.
Right, because what we reallywant to do is we want to get
down to the interests, and theinterests are the reasons why
they have those positions.
So we want to look at thereasons.
Peter Roussos (24:47):
I think when folks are angry too, it's harder
for people to define what theywant and much easier to define
what they don't want and to leadwith that and how.
That can very much beexperienced by the other person
as a criticism or a complaint.
That makes effectivecommunication that much more
challenging as well.
Dr. James Walton (25:02):
Absolutely.
You know, one of the biggestchallenges we have in life is
knowing really what we want.
I mean, you ask somebody, well,what is it that you want out of
life?
And they give you a couple ofgeneralized things and then it's
like, well, tell me more, whatdo you really want?
And it's really hard for peopleto figure that out.
And I think when they get angrylike this, it's they're
(25:23):
demanding the other person totell them what it is that they
want.
It's your responsibility totell me what I want.
Mark Hill (25:30):
If you knew, if you loved me, you'd know what I want
.
Dr. James Walton (25:38):
That is so common.
Mark Hill (25:46):
But you know really, if you love me or if I loved you
, I would tell you what I want.
Shawn Weber (25:50):
It's like the old song If she knew what she wanted
, he'd be giving it to her Right.
Mark Hill (25:58):
Well, that's when I come back and say well, you, you
know, maybe you guys ought toconsider a divorce right,
exactly, which is a great, uh,you know, reality refocus, it
helps people, refocus thatthey're not here to you know, in
our presence to work on therelationship that has.
Hopefully we can assist them inbecoming, say, better
co-parents or having bettercommunication.
(26:21):
Perhaps that, as a side effectof what we're doing, would be
great and that's certainlyaspirational, although, as we
all know, sometimes it's justtriage at the end, getting them
through, getting it done.
Dr. James Walton (26:33):
Well, hopefully, what we can do
especially if there's somemental health on the team is
help them transition to adifferent relationship, because
if they're a family, they'realways going to be a family,
regardless of the marital status, and so you want to help them
transition into different waysof communicating.
(26:53):
So now they're not going to be,you know, in a marriage, but
they're still going to becommunicating about the children
.
Shawn Weber (27:02):
That's so true, james.
I mean, I always hear I alreadydid, always.
I'm a Sith I hear a lot folkssaying, well, I can't have that
conversation with him because itnever works out, or I can't
have that conversation with herbecause it never works out.
And I always frequently ask thequestion well, have you tried
(27:24):
that with a professional disputeresolver, you know, have you
tried that with somebody thatknows how to bridge the gaps and
has techniques to help you finddifferent ways to communicate?
And?
And the answer is frequently no, and then and then the.
The question would then be well, would you like to learn new
(27:44):
ways to talk about these issuesthat are typically hard for you
and I?
It's rare that you havesomebody say, no, I don't want
to find a way to communicatewith this person.
Mark Hill (27:53):
Right If they have kids.
Dr. James Walton (27:55):
if they have kids I mean we use their kids
relentlessly against them, right, yeah, right, if they have kids
, I mean you, like you said,we're still family right and,
and you know, a lot of timespeople drag you know what they
saw in their own families intothe marriage and they start
behaving in the ways that theirparents behaved in the unhealthy
manners.
Yeah, and so that there's a lotof gunk there that you have to
(28:20):
work through.
Shawn Weber (28:24):
Gunk that's the technical term gunk, gunk.
Dr. James Walton (28:26):
Yes, it's in the DSM.
Mark Hill (28:30):
It's in the DSM.
Shawn Weber (28:35):
That sounds like jargon to me, but it's, it's
descriptive though, like gunk,like it gunks up the works.
It makes it hard for us to getwhat they're actually wanting.
That's why I I do think,starting with the goals,
starting the end in mind, whatis it that you really want to
accomplish here, right?
And how is this particularbehavior, this particular
(28:56):
thought process, helping you getthere, right?
And most of the time, theanswer is it's not.
And so then, what's a differentway to do this?
Left brain thinking?
Dr. James Walton (29:08):
Exactly, and the infighting that they did
during the course of themarriage that got them to the
point of divorce is now going tobe present during the divorce
and it's probably going to beamplified.
So what we can expect duringthe course of the divorce is
(29:29):
that their communication isgoing to get much worse.
Shawn Weber (29:31):
It'll get worse before it gets better, right, oh
?
Dr. James Walton (29:34):
yeah, someone's trying to win.
Mark Hill (29:43):
And I think in a way it has to be normalized, In
other words, to tell them thisis okay, this is hard, and
you're going to be angry, you'regoing to be hurt.
And a friend of mine, mediatorfrom Colorado, used to say
conflict is the spark thatengenders creativity.
So you can often say that theconflict actually is necessary
in order to get the creativitygoing to come up with a solution
(30:06):
.
Dr. James Walton (30:09):
That is very well said.
I completely believe that.
You know, conflict really isthe beginning of change.
Conflict can be the beginningof an agreement.
You can't have agreementwithout having had conflict.
Peter Roussos (30:27):
Right.
Dr. James Walton (30:29):
So we could also normalize conflict because
there's healthy conflict andunhealthy conflict.
Right, normalize conflictbecause there's healthy conflict
and unhealthy conflict, right.
There's healthy conflict wherepeople can talk about things
they don't agree on, and thehealthy conflict can be about
negotiating.
Unhealthy would be, you know,screaming and yelling and
closing it down.
Healthy conflict is coming upwith a variety of options.
(30:52):
Unhealthy conflict is binary upwith a variety of options.
Shawn Weber (31:01):
unhealthy conflict is binary, it's just do it or
yes or no, my way or the highwayyeah, well, and the corollary
to that is peace is not theabsence of conflict, it's the
absence of creative solutions tosolve conflict or to deal with
conflict.
Say that again peace is not theabsence of conflict, it's, it's
(31:21):
the absence of creativesolutions to deal with the
conflict.
Oh, I like that.
You know, um, where I thinksometimes people come to my
office thinking that we're goingto remove all conflict and
we're not.
We can't, the conflict is goingto remain.
That's why they're gettingdivorced.
If there was no conflict, we'djust stay married, right, right.
(31:43):
And we're talking about seriousstuff here.
Like there can be a tendency onthe part of the practitioner to
kind of minimize what people arebringing to the meeting, to
kind of minimize what people arebringing to the meeting.
Like we're talking aboutbetrayal.
We're talking about trauma,fundamental pain that you know,
(32:04):
that's fundamental to thingsthat they feel are the most
important in their lives, whichis their family and their spouse
and their marriage, andeverything they'd hoped for and
dreamt for is blowing up.
And I think it's important tohelp our clients understand and
people listening to this podcastmaybe understand that you know,
cut yourself some slack.
Divorce sucks.
(32:24):
This is hard, this is painful.
We'd be worried about you ifyou were just fine.
I always get worried about thecouple where it just seems like
they're just great witheverything.
And then we find thatkryptonite and it explodes right
in front of us.
Dr. James Walton (32:41):
Right, Because they haven't learned how to.
They haven't learned how toargue.
Shawn Weber (32:45):
Yeah.
Dr. James Walton (32:46):
And there's an art.
There's an art to arguing inyour relationship and it's it's
okay to argue, it's okay to haveto express anger Remember
expressing anger with our wordsbut it's really healthy too,
couples that don't know how toargue that never get into the
mud with each other.
It's like an earthquake, right,they say in Los Angeles, if you
(33:11):
have lots of little earthquakes, that sort of relieves the
tension, but if you've gonewithout one for a really long
time, it can be a big explosion.
And that analogy does work forcouples that don't have small
arguments.
And research has shown thatcouples that have little
arguments all the time notdestructive blaming arguments,
(33:32):
but just like littledisagreements, lots of little
disagreements, and they settlethem.
Those are lasting relationshipsbecause they know how to handle
it when it comes up A couplethat doesn't have arguments, a
couple that just goes along,along, along and then explodes.
They don't know how to argue,they don't know how to solve it.
Mark Hill (33:53):
My dad always used to say if there's no arguments in
a marriage, they don't talk toeach other.
That's the only way that can be, in his opinion.
Peter Roussos (34:06):
It's striking to me too how many couples I see
who come in, and I'm alwayscurious when I'm meeting people
for the first time, you knowwhat their goals and objectives
are.
And literally every singlecouple that I've ever worked
with has said, usually veryearly on well, we don't, we
don't communicate effectively.
(34:26):
And I'm always curious whatpeople mean by that.
And what I found is it's not atall unusual, and when I asked,
well, tell me more, they'll saywell, we just don't understand
each other.
And it's not at all unusual,quite common, where actually
they understand each other quitewell, they understand each
other's position, but they don'tagree.
And they may not becommunicating their
understanding in a respectfuland appropriate way, but they
(34:49):
understand each other, but theydon't agree and they haven't
figured out an effective way fordealing with the reality that
they don't agree.
And I think part of whathappens for couples that are
going through a divorce theycome into a divorce process and
it concretizes their challengesin working through things that
(35:10):
they don't agree and there's agrief process that's associated
with that, as their marriage isending.
Agree, and there's a griefprocess that's associated with
that, as their marriage isending.
But how do they navigate thesebasic lack of agreement?
Dr. James Walton (35:25):
between them about key and important issues.
Well, probably one of thethings that's happening in that
disagreement is they don'tunderstand why the other person
feels the way they do.
They just have two positions,and if they don't have an
understanding or feel like theother person has enough interest
in why they are wanting acertain thing or why they're
feeling a certain way, they'regoing to feel alienated, and the
(35:49):
key ingredient there iscuriosity.
Peter Roussos (35:51):
Well, and I think , James, what also happens is
I've had many people tell me-that and as I explore with them,
you know, this might be havinga conversation where one partner
will be saying well, they justdon't understand.
And I'll talk with the otherperson who's able to communicate
effectively, that they dounderstand.
But I'm always curious, why dothey withhold that effective
lift that do understand, but I'malways curious, why do they
(36:14):
withhold that?
And the response is often Idon't want him or her to think
that I agree with them, so intheir own mind they're
conflating the two.
Dr. James Walton (36:31):
Yeah, because we can understand the other
person without saying I agreewith your position, but you're
absolutely right that people areso afraid of giving up their
power or feeling like they'reacquiescing by acknowledging the
other person, and it's so farfrom that.
Peter Roussos (36:45):
That's not true, almost as though if you
understand or if the personthinks that you're agreeing,
there's this obligation thatgoes with that and teasing that
out and helping people tounderstand.
No, now, those can be toughconversations where I understand
(37:05):
perfectly but I don't agree.
Dr. James Walton (37:07):
Those are tough conversations to have, but
being able to discern those,you know, it's kind of like a
waiter carrying a plate of food.
You know you have to have this.
You have to be mindful of thebalance, and what I'm thinking
of is that plate is respect.
(37:28):
The one thing that people areafraid of is if they show
respect to the other person I'macquiescing, and that's not the
case but when we feel we're notrespected, that really triggers
us into feeling angry.
Disrespecting another is one ofthe biggest triggers for people
(37:48):
of getting their anger, ofmaking them really upset.
Mark Hill (37:53):
And I see that so much when there's an affair.
Oh yeah, I mean, that's theultimate disrespect and what
does that do to the processwe're dealing with?
How do you restore that to thepoint where you can at least
have a conversation and not havethat anger that comes from that
(38:13):
undermine, those?
Dr. James Walton (38:16):
not have that anger that comes from that
undermine those.
It's actually the aggrievedperson being able to express
their hurt and theirdisappointment and having it
heard by the other person.
And if they, without screamingand yelling at them, but to have
their hurt be expressed andhave the other person
acknowledge the hurt.
Mark Hill (38:34):
As opposed to saying, well, if you were a better
partner in the marriage, Iwouldn't have needed to have an
affair.
Dr. James Walton (38:41):
Well, that's disrespectful right.
Mark Hill (38:44):
Yeah, and that's what often comes back, or at least
I've seen the comeback.
I'm not a professional at this,but I sometimes find myself
stuck in a situation where Ikind of have to play a
psychologist on TV, and it'soften.
You can refer, you can lead ahorse to water, but you cannot
(39:05):
make them drink, and no matterhow many times I can recommend
bringing in a mental healthprofessional to assist with this
, often the response I'll getfrom both is no.
We went through years oftherapy.
That doesn't work, we're notdoing that again and that's hard
to counter.
Dr. James Walton (39:23):
Yeah, and sometimes people go to therapy
to prove that it's unfixable.
Right, that's so true.
Yeah, they'll go in, they'llgive it a shot and they'll say I
tried everything, now I can getdivorced.
Mark Hill (39:34):
Like two or three sessions.
Dr. James Walton (39:36):
Right Three.
You're doing well if you get tothree with that.
Mark Hill (39:42):
I knew this wouldn't work, I've just pruned it.
Shawn Weber (39:45):
Right, we've been talking a lot about the point of
view of the person who is angryand I think we're starting to
hit on the point of view of theperson that is receiving the
anger.
To hit on the point of view ofthe person that is receiving the
anger, what recommendationswould you have for that person?
So your spouse is raging at youduring the session and is very
(40:06):
angry.
Maybe the best advice you cangive is get really reactive and
really defensive and make sureyou tell them off in the process
.
Dr. James Walton (40:13):
That's not good advice that's probably not
the best advice to give whatwould you say?
Well, I would.
First of all, you don't letpeople stand up when they're
angry.
You get them to sit back downokay you do because yeah yeah,
move into up into action.
Sitting is a way of containingit better.
Containing it so you get them tosit back down, um, and then
(40:37):
make sure they don't have aweapon in their hand, and that
could be anything from a Kleenexbox to a to a glass of water.
Get them to put stuff down Ifyou really think something's
going to happen, and then youmight then suggest that we
separate, we take a break, let'stake a break, let's get
ourselves under, you know, in abetter condition.
(41:00):
If you tell ourselves undercontrol, that's going to feel
offensive to the person who'sangry, but it's like let's,
let's get ourselves in a placewhere we can communicate better
and separate them out, becauseyou can't get anything.
You can't get anything donewhen people are screaming at
each other.
You have to get, you have toget the heart rate down, you
have to get the breathing going,breathing, deep breathing.
(41:22):
I like to tell people to takeinhale through the nose for four
seconds, hold it in the lungsfor four seconds and the next
health or your mouth, and justdo that until you find yourself
calming down.
Shawn Weber (41:34):
I guess I say I'm the person that's, maybe I'm the
guy that had the affair Right,and my wife is just.
Everything that comes out ofher mouth is some kind of a
slight or a put down about me.
What do I do to manage myselfin that moment?
Dr. James Walton (41:50):
You have to tell yourself in that moment
that I'm in control of myresponses, that I am the.
I decide how I'm going torespond and what I'm going to
say.
I decide how I'm going torespond and what I'm going to
say.
If she is coming at you likethat, you're going to have to
disconnect from it somehow andnot perceive yourself as you
(42:15):
know.
It's like I can choose how I'mgoing to respond to this.
I am.
I always recommend people atthat point to really step in and
get curious.
Tell me more about your upset.
I want to hear about your upset.
I want to hear about your anger.
(42:36):
Step into the space rather thanrunning from it, because if we
run from the space, what we'retelling the person is my
feelings and my situation ismore important than yours.
So if I get defensive, when weget defensive, we are actually
(42:58):
asking that person to step inand attack more.
It's a dance.
In fact, timothy Leary had athing called the Leary Wheel.
He was a psychiatrist for theCIA.
He wasn't some little flowerchild out there running around,
he was a scientist.
He was a psychiatrist for theCIA and he came up with
something called the Leary Wheeland one of the concepts of the
(43:23):
Leary wheel is it's a dance thatpeople do in their
communication, and one of thosedances opposite from the wheel,
is the attacker and the defender.
And the defender and theattacker are in a dance, and the
way that you break the dance iseither the attacker stop
attacking or the defender stopdefending, because if you're
(43:44):
defending yourself, you'reinviting the attack.
So if you can really screw itup by saying OK, I want to hear
what you have to say, tell memore.
The curiosity.
Shawn Weber (43:57):
That's the curiosity, as opposed to
responding.
But you always left yourtoenails on the coffee table,
and so I had to have an affairand it was your fault.
Tell me more about that.
Dr. James Walton (44:06):
I want to hear how that worked for you.
How was that for you that thetoenails created the affair?
Peter Roussos (44:13):
I remember being in a training many, many years
ago with Pete Pearson and hetalked about the importance of
helping partners to be curiousrather than furious.
Dr. James Walton (44:27):
Excellent.
I love that.
Peter Roussos (44:29):
And that's a powerful way to represent it to
people.
People get that.
Shawn Weber (44:33):
You know it's correct because it rhymes.
And it will exhaust the otherside because eventually they'll
run out of things to be pissedoff about I actually tried that
on a relative who was very, uh,politically minded in a
different way than I am, and Ijust asked well, tell me what
brings you to that conclusion?
(44:53):
You know, in a, j and I wasactually what changed about, as
is I was not.
You know, you always say youwant to listen, to listen, not
listen to reply, listen tounderstand.
So I was actually legitimatelycurious how this person could
have come to this, what Ithought was a bizarre conclusion
.
It was a bizarre conclusion andlogic was off the rails, but I
(45:18):
understand him better.
I understand how he got.
Peter Roussos (45:20):
There was off the rails, but I understand him
better, I understand how he gotthere and it enabled me to have
a conversation with this personwhose views I view as nuts, but
I was able to understand thembetter and we didn't end up
fighting, which is usually whathappens when we talk about these
things, don, if we go back tothis scenario that you were
(45:41):
describing and this isn't alwayspossible but if there is the
opportunity on the front end toprepare for a conversation like
that, one of the things that Iwould want to talk with that
person about is, again, thisidea of personal responsibility
and how he or she thinks oftheir decision to have an affair
, and how willing are they toreally try to understand the
(46:06):
pain that it caused the otherperson.
And, in that spirit of takingpersonal responsibility, how
upset does the other person getto be?
And, if they're able to thinkof it in those terms, to to
perhaps understand that part ofthat person's pain and their
anger is something that is aresult of their actions?
(46:27):
Does that allow them to groundthemselves, to be more curious,
to be more effective in theirown self-management, so that
that other person, the partner,can say what they need to say?
Shawn Weber (46:43):
That other person, the partner, can say what they
need to say.
You're reminding me of a case Ihad where there was an affair
and the poor wife she wasdevastated by this affair, but
she looked like she'd swalloweda lemon the entire time and she
kept talking about the mistress.
The husband kept saying thingslike well, these things don't
happen in a vacuum, you knowthat kind of thing.
(47:04):
And finally I realized she justneeded to express.
So what I did in this and maybeyou, james, you can give me
some critique on this I justsaid to the husband and the
attorney was there and theattorneys were present and I got
buy-in.
I said I'm gonna say somethings.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna repeatback to you what is making your
(47:27):
wife so angry with you, the, thebehaviors, the things that she
wants to change, what'supsetting her.
I want you to listen carefullyand I want you to not respond.
I want you to just bend overand take it like a man.
That's what I told him that wasgood, and so I did that.
I did that, I, I, I I told thiswoman's point of view from the
(47:47):
mediators.
You know, as a mediator, kindof acting as a translator, I
used the best neutral language Icould but basically articulated
what was making her so upset.
She felt, felt better.
He wasn't necessarily thrilled,but he wasn't biting bag.
Dr. James Walton (48:04):
And you could have put a little capper on that
too and say does this makesense to you?
Not that you agree with it.
Shawn Weber (48:11):
Does it make sense to you?
Dr. James Walton (48:12):
Yeah, does it make sense to you.
And if he were to say, yes,that makes sense to me, that's
reasonable, I could see whereshe's coming from.
Yes, that makes sense to me,that's reasonable, I could see
where she's coming from.
That would immediately dispelthe anger on her side.
You would see that starting tocome down.
Shawn Weber (48:28):
Yeah, well, and that's what happened with this
case.
I mean, she changed from thatmoment forward because she was
seen for the first time.
Dr. James Walton (48:39):
Or she felt that she was seen.
People have big emotionsbecause they want to be seen.
The bigger they get, the moreyou're able to see them.
Is what's happening behind that?
My emotions are big because Iwant to be seen.
The moment I'm seen.
I don't need to put that muchenergy into the emotions.
I can conserve that energy.
Now, if you wanted to reallyreally make this, tie this up in
(49:03):
a nice bow and I'm not sayingthat most people going through
divorce wouldn't do this.
But after saying that makessense to me if you were to say,
is there anything I can do tomake this up to you, that would,
yes, give me all the money.
Match point.
Shawn Weber (49:21):
Put yourself in a car and drive off a cliff.
Yeah Well, I think you're right, though I think if the people
have the ability to ask thatquestion, that means we've
crossed a threshold, right.
Dr. James Walton (49:37):
Yeah, and that might be a pre-divorce thing.
If people can do that beforethey get to divorce, that might
be something that turns itaround off the cliff.
Can I make this up to you?
Peter Roussos (49:49):
And James, I'm thinking, can I make this up to
you, or even an apology?
I remember reading aboutresearch looking at malpractice
suits for medical doctors andand how different the outcome of
those cases is when thosehospitals or those doctors from
(50:10):
the get go acknowledge theirmistakes and apologize to the
parties.
Mark Hill (50:20):
You know that that those settlements are lower,
that type of thing.
But often the insurance companywill say don't admit to any
fault.
Right.
Dr. James Walton (50:27):
Right, right, right.
The lawyers in the insurancecompanies are saying don't admit
to fault, right.
But I've read that same studyand there's a lot of truth in it
.
There's a lot of truth in it.
Shawn Weber (50:38):
Well, we've seen from things like the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission inSouth Africa where, you know,
we've actually had people speakto some of our professional
groups where this ability tojust tell the story of what
happened and it's okay to tellthat story and it's okay to
(51:00):
admit when you were wrong andwhat was powerful about the
Truth and ReconciliationCommission is, as long as you
told the truth, you were immuneand it was marvelous healing
that happened as a result ofthat.
Was it perfect?
Probably not, but I think itwent a long way for that for
South Africa, and it's beentried in other places like
(51:20):
rwanda, where they had genocide,and other places.
Um, northern ireland northernireland it was tried and and
every time it's tried, there'sthis powerful ability to maybe
not fix the problem but to beable to move on from the hurt,
because people as youacknowledge you acknowledge it
happened.
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Hill (51:43):
We're talking serious things.
Shawn Weber (51:44):
We're talking about like war crimes, yeah.
Dr. James Walton (51:47):
Yeah, they actually did a form of that in
Pennsylvania as diversion fordiversion programs.
It's called restorativepractice.
Peter Roussos (51:58):
Oh, interesting.
Dr. James Walton (51:59):
And in restorative practice, you get
the person who did the offenseand the person that was hurt.
You get them in a spacetogether and then you talk about
like the offender, theperpetrator, what happened, what
were you thinking about at thetime that you were committing
this crime or you were doingthis thing or you were hitting
or whatever it was that theywere doing?
(52:20):
And then you ask them whatthoughts they've had about that
situation since then, and thereare a list of questions they
have, and then the person who'sbeen injured gets to respond
what was your reaction to whathappened?
You know what happened to you.
What was your reaction?
What were you thinking about atthe time?
You know that it occurred, whatwas the hardest thing for you
(52:43):
about this experience?
And they're communicating witheach other about where they were
and very often they're able tocome to a resolution that
doesn't involve the justicesystem, but they're able to work
it out between themselves.
Shawn Weber (52:57):
Well, james, we've been at this for about an hour.
You can tell it's a goodconversation, because I feel
like we could just keep going.
I think we could.
It was wonderful having youjoin us and I just kind of want
to summarize for the consumerout there, the people that are
facing the divorce and maybe thepeople that are angry, some of
(53:18):
what I heard from you and youcan tell me if I caught it all.
So the number one is whenyou're angry, that's a normal
thing.
Don't think that you'reabnormal because you're angry.
Use your words, use eyestatements, focus on interests,
not on your anger.
Dr. James Walton (53:37):
Interests are the reasons.
Right, Right Interests are thereasons.
Shawn Weber (53:42):
Yeah, use genuine curiosity when you're talking to
each other about things thatmake you angry.
Be strategic rather thanemotional.
Get from your right brain toyour left brain.
Yeah, it's OK if you don'tagree.
Yeah, it's OK if you don'tagree, and I can choose how I
(54:05):
respond.
Anything else.
Dr. James Walton (54:07):
When you were talking about from getting from
right brain to left brain.
Name the emotions, it's OK.
Shawn Weber (54:12):
Name that feeling right.
Dr. James Walton (54:13):
Name that feeling.
So if it's like you're angry,say I'm angry.
That does help it to move fromright brain to left brain, kind
of that self-awareness.
Shawn Weber (54:23):
I am in fact angry.
Dr. James Walton (54:24):
I am, yeah, I am angry.
Shawn Weber (54:26):
That does help it to move from a right brain to
left brain, kind of thatself-awareness.
I am, in fact, angry.
I am, yeah, I am angry.
I am enraged.
Yes, yeah, yeah, okay, verygood.
Well, james, if people wantedto work with you to manage their
anger and other issues inregards to their divorce from an
emotional perspective, whatshould they do?
Dr. James Walton (54:42):
You can log onto my website at
latherapistcom and all theinformation is there on how to
get in contact with me, and Iwork with people online
throughout California, or I alsosee people in person who are
living in the LA area, or I alsosee people in person who are
living in the LA area.
Shawn Weber (55:03):
Very good, and, by the way, I went through his Web
site.
James Web site is excellent.
It's a.
It's a.
There's a lot of resourcesthere.
Mark, if people needed to talkto you about the financial
aspects of their divorce, whatshould they do?
Mark Hill (55:16):
Same thing.
Go to my Web site Packeddivorce PACDIBORCorcecom.
Fill out our contact form.
We also have a lot ofinformation about what we do and
, candidly, what we don't do,which is go to court anymore.
Peter Roussos (55:40):
Okay and Pete, if people wanted to work with you
regarding their divorce andother counseling issues, what
should they do?
Also, my website, which isPeterRussoscom
P-E-T-E-R-R-O-U-S-S-O-Scom, andmy contact me page there.
They can email me from there.
Shawn Weber (55:53):
Excellent, and if anybody wants to work with a
mediator at any kind of dispute,I am there to help with that.
From a legal perspective, it'sWeberDisputeResolutioncom.
That's Weber with one B, likethe grill dispute, like we had a
fight and resolution, like wesolved it and go there and we
will match you with a mediatorwho will help you resolve your
(56:16):
dispute.
Well guys, we've done it again.
It's been great.
I really appreciate JamesWalton for joining us a
wonderful therapist andpsychologist in the LA area and
I look forward to seeing more ofyou around, james, as we
continue this great work inCalifornia.
And for those of you that areout there dealing with anger, we
(56:39):
wish you the best and we'rehopeful that this podcast is
something that'd be useful foryou.
Dr. James Walton (56:45):
Well, thank you for having me.
I appreciate it, james.
Thank you, james.
Bye everybody.
Shawn Weber (56:59):
Thanks for listening to another episode of
the Three Wisemen of DivorceMoney, psych and Law.
If you like what you heard, besure to subscribe, leave us a
review and share with others whomay be in a similar place.
Until next time, stay safe,healthy and focused on a
positive, bright future.
This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
Bright future this podcast isfor informational purposes only.
(57:21):
Every family law case is unique, so no legal, financial or
mental health advice is intendedduring this podcast.
If you need help with yourspecific situation, feel free to
schedule a time to speak withone of us for a personal
consultation.
Well, gentlemen, guess what?
What we have been honored byFeedspot.
You can go to a URLpodcastsfeedspotcom and they
rate podcasts and we are amongthe 20 best California law
podcasts.
Peter Roussos (00:21):
Which begs the question how many legal podcasts
are there in California?
Well, that's a very goodquestion.
Mark Hill (00:28):
Well, apparently, from the website I'm looking at
here, there are 551.
And we are in the top 20.
Shawn Weber (00:36):
We are indeed Well, according to this, we're number
nine.
I don't know what the criteriais.
Peter Roussos (00:42):
We're in the top 10.
Shawn Weber (00:43):
We're in the top 10 .
So don't even you know.
Yeah, really Well, I want toknow how much of these other
people suck for us to be in thetop 10.
Peter Roussos (00:51):
No, how much did they, the eight, have to pay?
Mark Hill (00:56):
to get above us.
Shawn Weber (00:57):
To get above us, right?
Yeah, really, but no, I think.
Peter Roussos (01:01):
I say the election is rigged.
Mark Hill (01:14):
The election is rigged.
The election is rigged, yes,yes.
Peter Roussos (01:16):
Well you know, I used to identify as a legal
podcast, but now I identify as adivorce podcast.
Shawn Weber (01:20):
OK, well guys all kidding aside, I think this is
really cool.
I think it's a singular honorand I'm very pleased and happy.
No, I think it's a singularhonor and I'm very pleased and
happy.
Mark Hill (01:25):
Yeah, very, very appreciative that people out
there are paying attention,because we do put a lot of real
effort into this.
As irreverent as we may appearat sometimes, this is serious
stuff and we really hope that ithelps people.
Shawn Weber (01:39):
Yeah, so just a shout out to Feedspot
F-E-E-D-S-P-O-T.
Their URL ispodcastsfeedspotcom and then the
one we're on is just thatwebsite with forward slash,
california underscore law,underscore podcasts.
So if you want to find us onthere and other, there's other.
(02:00):
I'm actually going to check outsome of these other podcasts
because they look good and we'rejust pleased that people are
listening to something thatwe're doing yes, many, many
thanks for each spot.
Very cool, thank you welcome tothe three wise men of divorce
money, psych and law podcast.
Sit down with the californiadivorce experts financial
(02:24):
divorce consultant Mark Hill,psychologist Scott Weiner and
attorney Sean Weber for a frankand casual conversation about
divorce, separation,co-parenting and the difficult
decisions real people like youface during these tough times.
We know that if you are lookingat divorce or separation, it
can be scary and overwhelming.
(02:44):
With combined experience ofover 70 years in divorce and
conflict management, we are herefor you and look forward to
helping by sharing our uniqueideas, thoughts and perspectives
on divorce, separation andco-parenting.
Dr. James Walton (03:07):
Hi, sean, it's nice to see you.
Shawn Weber (03:12):
Hi James, hi Pete, hi Mark, hi.
So James, welcome to the ThreeWise Men of Divorce.
Well, thank you.
Dr. James Walton (03:26):
You may find us to be the three foolish men
of divorce, but no, I'll takeyou at your word that you're the
three wise men, so so so Jamesis.
Shawn Weber (03:35):
This is James Walton, he's a PhD, he'sa he is
a psychologist and you're alicensed family therapist.
Yes, la area.
I've known James through ourwork with Collaborative Practice
California, which is thestatewide California group for
promoting collaborative practiceand peacemaking in the state of
(03:56):
California, and James was justawarded the Eureka Award.
Congratulations.
Peter Roussos (04:05):
That's actually very prestigious.
Dr. James Walton (04:08):
Thank you, I was really shocked by it.
Actually, I was in the middleof dinner and I'm listening to
them talking about the guy and Ithought I should know this
person.
Shawn Weber (04:15):
I think everyone on this podcast right now is a
Eureka Award recipient.
I think all of us have receivedit at one point or another, so
you are among elite people.
Wow, I feel honored.
Now I feel like we're the fourwise men of divorce.
But you, you do a lot of workwith um divorcing couples in los
(04:40):
angeles.
You do a lot of counseling, Iknow you do a lot of
collaborative coaching I do, andyour website it's
latherapistcom.
Yes, and there's just atreasure trove of information
there, things that you canpurchase and download.
Dr. James Walton (04:59):
Yeah, I try to put a lot of information on
there for people that they canjust some useful information and
there's some free stuff thatpeople can information on there
for people that they can justthey can some useful information
.
And there's some free stuffthat people can download on
there as well that can behelpful for them.
And I know we're going to betalking about anger today and
anger the thing that I wantpeople to really understand
(05:19):
about anger that it's thehandmaiden of a divorce.
So when people are goingthrough divorce, they're going
to be experiencing anger andthat's a normal, natural thing
for people.
And to understand that anger isboth an emotion and it's both a
(05:39):
behavior.
So it's emotion and behavior.
And the thing is about emotionsis they kind of overwhelm us
and take us over and we may nothave a whole lot of control over
how we feel about something,but we have a whole lot of
control over how we express itand we have a whole lot of
(06:00):
control over our behavior andwhat we're going to do.
So when it comes to anger anddivorce, we have this delicate
balance between what we'refeeling and then how we want to
express it, and the fulcrum orthe center point of that is you
is the decisions that you make,and we're the ones that are
(06:22):
really in control of what we sayand what we do and we're the
ones that are really in controlof what we say and what we do.
Shawn Weber (06:28):
I love that.
Yeah, there's that spacebetween that stimulus and
response, right when somebodysays something that's triggering
to me and I can then choose inthat space of reaction how I'm
going to behave then after that.
Dr. James Walton (06:40):
Right, yeah, but the thing is, a lot of
people just they experience anemotion and immediately they
react and respond and they say Ican't help it.
You know you made me angry.
Well, actually, what we need tounderstand is nobody makes you
angry but yourself, and you knowhow we make ourselves angry.
Shawn Weber (07:04):
How do we do that?
Dr. James Walton (07:05):
By the thoughts we tell ourselves about
the situation.
Yeah okay, so you can take anyangering situation you like and
you can just imagine I'm goingto put 100 people in a room.
Will all 100 people be angryabout that?
Chances are no.
Mark Hill (07:29):
About that, chances are no, and that's because each
person is telling themselvessomething a little different
about whatever that experienceis, one thing I find that
happens, james, is thatsometimes a couple will get in
front of me and finally theyhave what they perceive as an
arbiter who will listen to theirarguments and tell them they're
right, and you know that's.
(07:50):
We have to disavow them of thatvery quickly, and I always urge
people you know, I think I'mtelling the same story but in a
different way.
I said how can we be strategicabout this rather than emotional
?
How can this become part of thestrategy for you to get what
you want?
That is making you frustratedright now.
Dr. James Walton (08:13):
That's great.
What you're doing is you'retaking them out of you know what
we could call left right brain,where there are emotions, and
you're putting them into leftbrain, which is, let's, how are
we going to solve this?
Pulling them away from theiremotional experiences.
Sometimes people have a realhard time getting out of that
(08:34):
and they kind of look at us asjudges, like we're going to sit
there and we're going to alignwith that person and say you
over here, you're the bad one.
Mark Hill (08:45):
It's this jerk and everything would be fine.
Dr. James Walton (08:47):
Yeah, when we're in those cases, I tell
people look, we're not yourjudge, we're not the jury, we're
here to help you express yourdesires, your interests and even
your emotions.
Because sometimes, when peopleare able to express what they're
feeling, but they have to putit into words, you know people
(09:09):
like will slam the table withtheir fist and they think
they're expressing a feeling andthey're not.
They're expressing pounding afist, and when they do that, the
recipient has to process whatthat means to them, and so
whatever their history aboutsomeone slamming a fist on the
table means to them brings up areaction.
(09:30):
It's not clear communication.
Now you're having to deal withnot only slamming the fist on
the table, but you have to dealwith the original issue.
That was about the anger.
So what I let people know islike okay, so when you do a
physical action like that,you're not putting it into words
.
Put your anger into words, tellpeople what you're angry about.
Shawn Weber (09:55):
Oh, it's like what I used to tell my kids use your
words, yeah, but I mean that'sreally powerful because and kind
of going back to what Mark wassaying the strategic approach,
the strategic thinking OK ispounding on the table, really
accomplishing what you want here.
What do you want?
That's why I always come backto what do you want?
(10:16):
You're angry about something?
What is it that you want tochange?
And get them to articulate thatinstead of pounding on a table.
Dr. James Walton (10:23):
Right, because when you pound on a table, what
do you do?
You create fear, yeah, and whathappens when you create?
Shawn Weber (10:31):
fear.
People go into all kinds ofcrazy fight or flight places
right.
Dr. James Walton (10:35):
Yeah, they back away, they cover their ears
, they want to get away from thething that's frightening them.
That's their first impulse.
And you're not creatingconversation.
You're not getting across thepoint you want to get across
because when you're creatingfear, you're trying to dominate,
and if you're using your angerto dominate the other person,
(11:00):
you don't have a dialogue.
There's no conversation goingon.
And if that person who's afraidacquiesces because of your big
emotions, you're going to createresentment.
And now resentment becomes atoxin in the negotiating and it
becomes a toxin in in in thatrelationship moving forward.
(11:24):
Because acquiescence is notcollaborative, acquiescence is
not all people are being heard.
It's one person being crushedand another one dominating.
Shawn Weber (11:38):
Yeah, I had a person that came in the other
day and they said I need to hireyou because you know my husband
won't do what I tell him.
And I thought, OK, this isgoing to go well.
And then she spent the wholetime just kind of yelling at him
and screaming at him and and Isaid, you know, maybe we ought
to come up with a differentstrategy.
So no, I'm, I'm going to standup to him.
He's going to hear what I haveto say.
(12:01):
And I kept asking her well,what do you think that's
accomplishing in getting whatyou want?
So, is what you want just toyell at him, or is what you want
something else?
Dr. James Walton (12:09):
Well, sean, you really bring up a great
point here, and that is she issaying he's going to hear what I
have to say.
Shawn Weber (12:16):
Damn it, she's going to hear this right.
Dr. James Walton (12:18):
Yeah, one of the best ways of getting
somebody to drop their anger isallowing them to feel like
they've been heard, and so ifshe is saying damn it he or I
don't know if you can swear onthis show.
Can you believe that?
Okay, Like damn it, You've gotto listen to me.
You don't?
You never hear what I'm saying?
(12:39):
Well, there's a clue rightthere that this person doesn't
feel like she's being heard.
There's a clue right there thatthis person doesn't feel like
she's being heard.
So we have to create, maybe, anenvironment where she can be
heard but be able to expressherself in her big girl words,
rather than in yelling andshouting, which is acting out
(12:59):
right.
Mark Hill (13:00):
Peter, years ago we had a case together with you and
Blima and that's like Peter.
Years ago we had a casetogether with you and Blima and
I remember I was very as theneutral.
I was very anxious that theywere starting to have this fight
and I wanted to fix them and Iwanted to stop it and I wanted
to jump in and you guys just letthem go.
And I felt secure enough withyou guys there that if they had
(13:25):
to be stopped, you would stopthem.
And then, when we debriefed itlater, the synopsis that I took
away from it was well, they justhad to have that conversation,
as heated as it was.
Peter Roussos (13:34):
Well, one of the things that I'll often say to
people in a conversation likethat is hey, is this the
conversation that the two of youthink you need to have?
Because if it is, I don't wantto get in the way of it.
It doesn't look particularlyeffective or efficient to me,
(13:54):
and I think what that connectswith is really, for shifts
towards better communication tohappen, there has to be personal
responsibility, has to be takenfor self-management, the way
that people are managingthemselves, particularly when
they're upset.
I'm always curious and oftenwill say to people hey, do you
(14:15):
ever get really pissed off atwork the way you're feeling
towards your spouse or soon tobe ex-spouse now?
And most people say oh,absolutely.
Well, do you ever talk to yourboss or colleagues the way you
talk to your spouse?
And usually the answer is noand I'll say well, why I
wouldn't get away with it, whichis a really powerful
acknowledgement ofself-management and personal
(14:38):
responsibility that they're nottaking in at least the
conversations that they'rehaving with their spouse for
example.
Dr. James Walton (14:46):
Absolutely it is, and in fact it's about their
understanding that they're incontrol.
Right, they have control ofwhat they're going to say, and
they're not going to say thesame thing to their boss that
they would to their spouse,although they might be the same
feelings, they've moderatedthemselves.
(15:10):
And so you don't want peoplelike if you have people
exploding in your office at eachother and screaming, you don't
want them to continue that kindof conversation, because that
actually doesn't create anythingpositive at the end of it.
There are too many toxicemotions happening at that
moment, so you want to stop itsomehow.
You want to get them toseparate and then maybe talk
each of them down and come backto have that conversation.
(15:33):
We're not avoiding it, butwe're avoiding that emotionality
.
Peter Roussos (15:37):
Well, I would say , james, that 95% of the time
when I say to a couple, if youneed to have this conversation
the way that you're having it,I'm not going to get in the way
of it 95% of the time that isenough of a pause for them to
stop themselves and to say, no,this isn't effective, and to
(16:01):
begin a shift.
Mark Hill (16:01):
Or even greet them I do a similar thing, pete.
I say you know, we can keepgoing down this road if you
think it's going to beproductive and help the case
move forward more quickly.
And I'm greeted by silence,total silence.
And then I have to restart theconversation, you know, in a way
that hopefully brings thevalence down.
Shawn Weber (16:25):
You know, one of the things I like to do you've
seen me do this, mark,somebody's just completely
losing it, and I sit back for amoment and let them kind of do
what they're going to do.
And then I'm like, ok, hang on,let me help.
And then I'll actually modelthe breathing.
I'll go OK, that was hard,wasn't it?
And I'll go okay, that was hard, wasn't it.
(16:47):
And I'll pause.
Can we talk about this in a waythat maybe is more effective,
you know?
And then we'll go through thecoaching and helping them kind
of interact on that.
Mark Hill (16:58):
But I think another thing you'll do, Sean, is you'll
say I think I hear a proposal.
Yeah, Can we put this in termsof a proposal?
Shawn Weber (17:06):
Because then you're moving them onto the other side
of the brain as James just saidyeah, a complaint is a proposal
in disguise.
Dr. James Walton (17:13):
I always say yeah, yeah, excellent, that is
an excellent thing to do is toget them into the left side of
the brain with their thoughts.
Sometimes, if it's reallydrastic, you can knock over a
glass of water.
Shawn Weber (17:28):
They want to help, or, unlike the couple I had that
actually hurled a cup of hotcoffee at each other.
That's not what you're talkingabout, but like just
inadvertently knock over a glassof water.
Dr. James Walton (17:41):
Yeah, and you could do that.
It completely disruptseverything that's going on.
I love it, and people sometimeshave a compulsion to try to
help to clean it up and say, oh,you can work together, so let's
work together on this.
That's clever, but it you knowit can stop everything for a
moment and get them to refocus.
You can also say you can alsosay to them okay, what did you
(18:03):
hear her say to you?
Because the way that you candrain anger off is people first
of all being able to say okay,what you're saying, I heard what
you said.
What you said makes sense.
I don't agree with it, but whatyou said makes sense to me and
when people feel heard, theiranger level drops dramatically.
Shawn Weber (18:27):
Yeah, so I guess I want to kind of pivot a little
bit.
Um, if I'm the, if I'm a persongoing through the divorce, so
we know what we're going to do.
But if I'm a person goingthrough the divorce and I'm just
feeling rage right in themeeting, or I know I'm afraid
I'm going to fear rage, I've hadpeople say I can't even be in
(18:48):
the same room, this person.
I lose my mind, right, right.
Um, what would you say to thatperson as far as preparing for
the meeting and and thenmanaging themselves during the
meeting so they can beproductive and not just simply a
rage fest?
Dr. James Walton (19:04):
Well, first I would create a mission statement
, right, and I'd have themwell-versed in their mission
statement and one of the thingsmight be we speak to each other
respectfully.
Usually I get that put in theresomewhere and we are able to
control our anger.
If it's someone like that, youget that put in there somewhere.
(19:27):
So, yeah, I get the commitmentto that before we go into the
meeting.
And then I ask I say, look, ifI feel like we're going off that
(19:48):
part of the mission statement,do I have your permission to
stop the meeting and for us toeither take a break and calm
ourselves down or to recalibrateourselves during the meeting
and get a yes from them?
So if something is starting togo off the rails, that's already
prepped in the background andI'll say I think right now is a
good time for us to take a break, because when people are really
angry with ourselves and we'reangry with each other, you're
not going to get any logic outof them, you're not going to get
any agreements out of them andthey're not even hearing what
(20:10):
the other person's saying.
So, really, when they're goingat it, you want to separate them
.
You want to do something tobreak that Break that cycle.
Break that cycle, get themcentered again so that they can
come back in and kind of refresh, and then, like off on the side
, I would say, okay, let's dosome breathing, because we've
practiced breathing.
The first thing you want to dois get your heart rate down when
you're angry, because if yourheart rate is racing too fast it
(20:35):
knocks off your cognitiveprocessing.
You want to get out of.
There's a little jargon I'llthrow in.
Your deep limbic system iswhere you have the emotional
experiences.
You want to bring theprefrontal cortex, which is
where logic and reasoning go on.
You want to bring that backonline and so, off on your own,
you want to do some breathingwith them to help recenter them
(20:56):
and then say, okay, what's yourpriority here?
What is it that you want theother person to know, because
screaming and raging at themisn't going to help.
What is it that you want themto know about you?
What is it that you want themto understand?
Mark Hill (21:10):
And let's find some words to use that, and use I
words, not you words.
Dr. James Walton (21:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Talk about yourself.
Yeah, exactly.
Mark Hill (21:19):
When I've tried to move in that direction.
Well, you always and you never,always and never are words that
I always.
I tend to find our conversationstoppers, not starters.
Dr. James Walton (21:37):
They are.
Yeah, that's very true.
You want people to talk about I, how I feel, or what my needs
are.
Very true, you want people totalk about I, how I feel, or
what my needs are, um, not whatyou never do.
Yeah, again, you is one ofthose words where people pull
back and you want to bring themtowards you I always say the
sith only deal in absolutes, youknow.
Shawn Weber (22:02):
so this, this, whenever it's an absolute
statement never and always.
Really, is it really never?
Is it really always?
Yeah, you get down to OK.
Well, what is the thing thatyou want to change?
So that come back to what Ialways say.
The complaint is is a proposalin disguise.
So what is?
There's something you're upsetabout that's making you agitated
(22:23):
, uncomfortable, angry, andthat's a state of affairs that
you want to change.
So let's articulate what youwant to change so that maybe you
won't be in a state of angerall the time.
Dr. James Walton (22:35):
I mean, maybe you will, but Well, you just put
it in a request form, don't you?
You say, okay, what do you wantto request of the other person?
Shawn Weber (22:46):
I would like you to stop leaving your toenail
clippings on the coffee table.
Dr. James Walton (22:51):
Okay, excellent.
And then how I might coachsomebody into saying that is I
would like you to stop leavingyour toenail clippings on the on
the coffee table and give areason why because it, because
it looks really disgusting to meand and it makes me feel really
upset.
And then you can put therequest in would you mind not
doing that?
Would you mind scooping them upor whatever the request would
(23:13):
be?
And you get you know, yes, no,or I'll think about it.
Shawn Weber (23:20):
And do you find, James, that there's anger?
I've heard this before Anger isa secondary emotion to
something else.
Dr. James Walton (23:27):
Many times it is, many times it is, sometimes
it's not, but many times it is,and the secondary emotions might
be shame or grief or fear orhurt.
And if you can get them toacknowledge or name what, those
like they're angry.
Okay, what's behind the anger?
Well, I'm afraid.
(23:48):
What are you afraid of?
I'm afraid that I'm going to bealone and homeless.
Okay, so, let's verbalize that.
Um, alone and homeless, and?
And?
Okay, so, let's, let'sverbalize that.
So so, instead of like justraging, express, you know, I'm
afraid, I'm really afraid I'mgoing to be homeless.
Well, now we can address thatright.
Mark Hill (24:05):
It gives an entree, doesn't it?
Because I can say now that wecan look at your finances, we
can go through your cash flow,we can help you model something
so that you won't be livingunder a bus shelter.
Dr. James Walton (24:18):
Exactly yeah, because that gives us something
to do.
Now we can address thatinterest that they have.
Right, because what we reallywant to do is we want to get
down to the interests, and theinterests are the reasons why
they have those positions.
So we want to look at thereasons.
Peter Roussos (24:47):
I think when folks are angry too, it's harder
for people to define what theywant and much easier to define
what they don't want and to leadwith that and how.
That can very much beexperienced by the other person
as a criticism or a complaint.
That makes effectivecommunication that much more
challenging as well.
Dr. James Walton (25:02):
Absolutely.
You know, one of the biggestchallenges we have in life is
knowing really what we want.
I mean, you ask somebody, well,what is it that you want out of
life?
And they give you a couple ofgeneralized things and then it's
like, well, tell me more, whatdo you really want?
And it's really hard for peopleto figure that out.
And I think when they get angrylike this, it's they're
(25:23):
demanding the other person totell them what it is that they
want.
It's your responsibility totell me what I want.
Mark Hill (25:30):
If you knew, if you loved me, you'd know what I want
.
Dr. James Walton (25:38):
That is so common.
Mark Hill (25:46):
But you know really, if you love me or if I loved you
, I would tell you what I want.
Shawn Weber (25:50):
It's like the old song If she knew what she wanted
, he'd be giving it to her Right.
Mark Hill (25:58):
Well, that's when I come back and say well, you, you
know, maybe you guys ought toconsider a divorce right,
exactly, which is a great, uh,you know, reality refocus, it
helps people, refocus thatthey're not here to you know, in
our presence to work on therelationship that has.
Hopefully we can assist them inbecoming, say, better
co-parents or having bettercommunication.
(26:21):
Perhaps that, as a side effectof what we're doing, would be
great and that's certainlyaspirational, although, as we
all know, sometimes it's justtriage at the end, getting them
through, getting it done.
Dr. James Walton (26:33):
Well, hopefully, what we can do
especially if there's somemental health on the team is
help them transition to adifferent relationship, because
if they're a family, they'realways going to be a family,
regardless of the marital status, and so you want to help them
transition into different waysof communicating.
(26:53):
So now they're not going to be,you know, in a marriage, but
they're still going to becommunicating about the children
.
Shawn Weber (27:02):
That's so true, james.
I mean, I always hear I alreadydid, always.
I'm a Sith I hear a lot folkssaying, well, I can't have that
conversation with him because itnever works out, or I can't
have that conversation with herbecause it never works out.
And I always frequently ask thequestion well, have you tried
(27:24):
that with a professional disputeresolver, you know, have you
tried that with somebody thatknows how to bridge the gaps and
has techniques to help you finddifferent ways to communicate?
And?
And the answer is frequently no, and then and then the.
The question would then be well, would you like to learn new
(27:44):
ways to talk about these issuesthat are typically hard for you
and I?
It's rare that you havesomebody say, no, I don't want
to find a way to communicatewith this person.
Mark Hill (27:53):
Right If they have kids.
Dr. James Walton (27:55):
if they have kids I mean we use their kids
relentlessly against them, right, yeah, right, if they have kids
, I mean you, like you said,we're still family right and,
and you know, a lot of timespeople drag you know what they
saw in their own families intothe marriage and they start
behaving in the ways that theirparents behaved in the unhealthy
manners.
Yeah, and so that there's a lotof gunk there that you have to
(28:20):
work through.
Shawn Weber (28:24):
Gunk that's the technical term gunk, gunk.
Dr. James Walton (28:26):
Yes, it's in the DSM.
Mark Hill (28:30):
It's in the DSM.
Shawn Weber (28:35):
That sounds like jargon to me, but it's, it's
descriptive though, like gunk,like it gunks up the works.
It makes it hard for us to getwhat they're actually wanting.
That's why I I do think,starting with the goals,
starting the end in mind, whatis it that you really want to
accomplish here, right?
And how is this particularbehavior, this particular
(28:56):
thought process, helping you getthere, right?
And most of the time, theanswer is it's not.
And so then, what's a differentway to do this?
Left brain thinking?
Dr. James Walton (29:08):
Exactly, and the infighting that they did
during the course of themarriage that got them to the
point of divorce is now going tobe present during the divorce
and it's probably going to beamplified.
So what we can expect duringthe course of the divorce is
(29:29):
that their communication isgoing to get much worse.
Shawn Weber (29:31):
It'll get worse before it gets better, right, oh
?
Dr. James Walton (29:34):
yeah, someone's trying to win.
Mark Hill (29:43):
And I think in a way it has to be normalized, In
other words, to tell them thisis okay, this is hard, and
you're going to be angry, you'regoing to be hurt.
And a friend of mine, mediatorfrom Colorado, used to say
conflict is the spark thatengenders creativity.
So you can often say that theconflict actually is necessary
in order to get the creativitygoing to come up with a solution
(30:06):
.
Dr. James Walton (30:09):
That is very well said.
I completely believe that.
You know, conflict really isthe beginning of change.
Conflict can be the beginningof an agreement.
You can't have agreementwithout having had conflict.
Peter Roussos (30:27):
Right.
Dr. James Walton (30:29):
So we could also normalize conflict because
there's healthy conflict andunhealthy conflict.
Right, normalize conflictbecause there's healthy conflict
and unhealthy conflict, right.
There's healthy conflict wherepeople can talk about things
they don't agree on, and thehealthy conflict can be about
negotiating.
Unhealthy would be, you know,screaming and yelling and
closing it down.
Healthy conflict is coming upwith a variety of options.
(30:52):
Unhealthy conflict is binary upwith a variety of options.
Shawn Weber (31:01):
unhealthy conflict is binary, it's just do it or
yes or no, my way or the highwayyeah, well, and the corollary
to that is peace is not theabsence of conflict, it's the
absence of creative solutions tosolve conflict or to deal with
conflict.
Say that again peace is not theabsence of conflict, it's, it's
(31:21):
the absence of creativesolutions to deal with the
conflict.
Oh, I like that.
You know, um, where I thinksometimes people come to my
office thinking that we're goingto remove all conflict and
we're not.
We can't, the conflict is goingto remain.
That's why they're gettingdivorced.
If there was no conflict, we'djust stay married, right, right.
(31:43):
And we're talking about seriousstuff here.
Like there can be a tendency onthe part of the practitioner to
kind of minimize what people arebringing to the meeting, to
kind of minimize what people arebringing to the meeting.
Like we're talking aboutbetrayal.
We're talking about trauma,fundamental pain that you know,
(32:04):
that's fundamental to thingsthat they feel are the most
important in their lives, whichis their family and their spouse
and their marriage, andeverything they'd hoped for and
dreamt for is blowing up.
And I think it's important tohelp our clients understand and
people listening to this podcastmaybe understand that you know,
cut yourself some slack.
Divorce sucks.
(32:24):
This is hard, this is painful.
We'd be worried about you ifyou were just fine.
I always get worried about thecouple where it just seems like
they're just great witheverything.
And then we find thatkryptonite and it explodes right
in front of us.
Dr. James Walton (32:41):
Right, Because they haven't learned how to.
They haven't learned how toargue.
Shawn Weber (32:45):
Yeah.
Dr. James Walton (32:46):
And there's an art.
There's an art to arguing inyour relationship and it's it's
okay to argue, it's okay to haveto express anger Remember
expressing anger with our wordsbut it's really healthy too,
couples that don't know how toargue that never get into the
mud with each other.
It's like an earthquake, right,they say in Los Angeles, if you
(33:11):
have lots of little earthquakes, that sort of relieves the
tension, but if you've gonewithout one for a really long
time, it can be a big explosion.
And that analogy does work forcouples that don't have small
arguments.
And research has shown thatcouples that have little
arguments all the time notdestructive blaming arguments,
(33:32):
but just like littledisagreements, lots of little
disagreements, and they settlethem.
Those are lasting relationshipsbecause they know how to handle
it when it comes up A couplethat doesn't have arguments, a
couple that just goes along,along, along and then explodes.
They don't know how to argue,they don't know how to solve it.
Mark Hill (33:53):
My dad always used to say if there's no arguments in
a marriage, they don't talk toeach other.
That's the only way that can be, in his opinion.
Peter Roussos (34:06):
It's striking to me too how many couples I see
who come in, and I'm alwayscurious when I'm meeting people
for the first time, you knowwhat their goals and objectives
are.
And literally every singlecouple that I've ever worked
with has said, usually veryearly on well, we don't, we
don't communicate effectively.
(34:26):
And I'm always curious whatpeople mean by that.
And what I found is it's not atall unusual, and when I asked,
well, tell me more, they'll saywell, we just don't understand
each other.
And it's not at all unusual,quite common, where actually
they understand each other quitewell, they understand each
other's position, but they don'tagree.
And they may not becommunicating their
understanding in a respectfuland appropriate way, but they
(34:49):
understand each other, but theydon't agree and they haven't
figured out an effective way fordealing with the reality that
they don't agree.
And I think part of whathappens for couples that are
going through a divorce theycome into a divorce process and
it concretizes their challengesin working through things that
(35:10):
they don't agree and there's agrief process that's associated
with that, as their marriage isending.
Agree, and there's a griefprocess that's associated with
that, as their marriage isending.
But how do they navigate thesebasic lack of agreement?
Dr. James Walton (35:25):
between them about key and important issues.
Well, probably one of thethings that's happening in that
disagreement is they don'tunderstand why the other person
feels the way they do.
They just have two positions,and if they don't have an
understanding or feel like theother person has enough interest
in why they are wanting acertain thing or why they're
feeling a certain way, they'regoing to feel alienated, and the
(35:49):
key ingredient there iscuriosity.
Peter Roussos (35:51):
Well, and I think , James, what also happens is
I've had many people tell me-that and as I explore with them,
you know, this might be havinga conversation where one partner
will be saying well, they justdon't understand.
And I'll talk with the otherperson who's able to communicate
effectively, that they dounderstand.
But I'm always curious, why dothey withhold that effective
lift that do understand, but I'malways curious, why do they
(36:14):
withhold that?
And the response is often Idon't want him or her to think
that I agree with them, so intheir own mind they're
conflating the two.
Dr. James Walton (36:31):
Yeah, because we can understand the other
person without saying I agreewith your position, but you're
absolutely right that people areso afraid of giving up their
power or feeling like they'reacquiescing by acknowledging the
other person, and it's so farfrom that.
Peter Roussos (36:45):
That's not true, almost as though if you
understand or if the personthinks that you're agreeing,
there's this obligation thatgoes with that and teasing that
out and helping people tounderstand.
No, now, those can be toughconversations where I understand
(37:05):
perfectly but I don't agree.
Dr. James Walton (37:07):
Those are tough conversations to have, but
being able to discern those,you know, it's kind of like a
waiter carrying a plate of food.
You know you have to have this.
You have to be mindful of thebalance, and what I'm thinking
of is that plate is respect.
(37:28):
The one thing that people areafraid of is if they show
respect to the other person I'macquiescing, and that's not the
case but when we feel we're notrespected, that really triggers
us into feeling angry.
Disrespecting another is one ofthe biggest triggers for people
(37:48):
of getting their anger, ofmaking them really upset.
Mark Hill (37:53):
And I see that so much when there's an affair.
Oh yeah, I mean, that's theultimate disrespect and what
does that do to the processwe're dealing with?
How do you restore that to thepoint where you can at least
have a conversation and not havethat anger that comes from that
(38:13):
undermine, those?
Dr. James Walton (38:16):
not have that anger that comes from that
undermine those.
It's actually the aggrievedperson being able to express
their hurt and theirdisappointment and having it
heard by the other person.
And if they, without screamingand yelling at them, but to have
their hurt be expressed andhave the other person
acknowledge the hurt.
Mark Hill (38:34):
As opposed to saying, well, if you were a better
partner in the marriage, Iwouldn't have needed to have an
affair.
Dr. James Walton (38:41):
Well, that's disrespectful right.
Mark Hill (38:44):
Yeah, and that's what often comes back, or at least
I've seen the comeback.
I'm not a professional at this,but I sometimes find myself
stuck in a situation where Ikind of have to play a
psychologist on TV, and it'soften.
You can refer, you can lead ahorse to water, but you cannot
(39:05):
make them drink, and no matterhow many times I can recommend
bringing in a mental healthprofessional to assist with this
, often the response I'll getfrom both is no.
We went through years oftherapy.
That doesn't work, we're notdoing that again and that's hard
to counter.
Dr. James Walton (39:23):
Yeah, and sometimes people go to therapy
to prove that it's unfixable.
Right, that's so true.
Yeah, they'll go in, they'llgive it a shot and they'll say I
tried everything, now I can getdivorced.
Mark Hill (39:34):
Like two or three sessions.
Dr. James Walton (39:36):
Right Three.
You're doing well if you get tothree with that.
Mark Hill (39:42):
I knew this wouldn't work, I've just pruned it.
Shawn Weber (39:45):
Right, we've been talking a lot about the point of
view of the person who is angryand I think we're starting to
hit on the point of view of theperson that is receiving the
anger.
To hit on the point of view ofthe person that is receiving the
anger, what recommendationswould you have for that person?
So your spouse is raging at youduring the session and is very
(40:06):
angry.
Maybe the best advice you cangive is get really reactive and
really defensive and make sureyou tell them off in the process
.
Dr. James Walton (40:13):
That's not good advice that's probably not
the best advice to give whatwould you say?
Well, I would.
First of all, you don't letpeople stand up when they're
angry.
You get them to sit back downokay you do because yeah yeah,
move into up into action.
Sitting is a way of containingit better.
Containing it so you get them tosit back down, um, and then
(40:37):
make sure they don't have aweapon in their hand, and that
could be anything from a Kleenexbox to a to a glass of water.
Get them to put stuff down Ifyou really think something's
going to happen, and then youmight then suggest that we
separate, we take a break, let'stake a break, let's get
ourselves under, you know, in abetter condition.
(41:00):
If you tell ourselves undercontrol, that's going to feel
offensive to the person who'sangry, but it's like let's,
let's get ourselves in a placewhere we can communicate better
and separate them out, becauseyou can't get anything.
You can't get anything donewhen people are screaming at
each other.
You have to get, you have toget the heart rate down, you
have to get the breathing going,breathing, deep breathing.
(41:22):
I like to tell people to takeinhale through the nose for four
seconds, hold it in the lungsfor four seconds and the next
health or your mouth, and justdo that until you find yourself
calming down.
Shawn Weber (41:34):
I guess I say I'm the person that's, maybe I'm the
guy that had the affair Right,and my wife is just.
Everything that comes out ofher mouth is some kind of a
slight or a put down about me.
What do I do to manage myselfin that moment?
Dr. James Walton (41:50):
You have to tell yourself in that moment
that I'm in control of myresponses, that I am the.
I decide how I'm going torespond and what I'm going to
say.
I decide how I'm going torespond and what I'm going to
say.
If she is coming at you likethat, you're going to have to
disconnect from it somehow andnot perceive yourself as you
(42:15):
know.
It's like I can choose how I'mgoing to respond to this.
I am.
I always recommend people atthat point to really step in and
get curious.
Tell me more about your upset.
I want to hear about your upset.
I want to hear about your anger.
(42:36):
Step into the space rather thanrunning from it, because if we
run from the space, what we'retelling the person is my
feelings and my situation ismore important than yours.
So if I get defensive, when weget defensive, we are actually
(42:58):
asking that person to step inand attack more.
It's a dance.
In fact, timothy Leary had athing called the Leary Wheel.
He was a psychiatrist for theCIA.
He wasn't some little flowerchild out there running around,
he was a scientist.
He was a psychiatrist for theCIA and he came up with
something called the Leary Wheeland one of the concepts of the
(43:23):
Leary wheel is it's a dance thatpeople do in their
communication, and one of thosedances opposite from the wheel,
is the attacker and the defender.
And the defender and theattacker are in a dance, and the
way that you break the dance iseither the attacker stop
attacking or the defender stopdefending, because if you're
(43:44):
defending yourself, you'reinviting the attack.
So if you can really screw itup by saying OK, I want to hear
what you have to say, tell memore.
The curiosity.
Shawn Weber (43:57):
That's the curiosity, as opposed to
responding.
But you always left yourtoenails on the coffee table,
and so I had to have an affairand it was your fault.
Tell me more about that.
Dr. James Walton (44:06):
I want to hear how that worked for you.
How was that for you that thetoenails created the affair?
Peter Roussos (44:13):
I remember being in a training many, many years
ago with Pete Pearson and hetalked about the importance of
helping partners to be curiousrather than furious.
Dr. James Walton (44:27):
Excellent.
I love that.
Peter Roussos (44:29):
And that's a powerful way to represent it to
people.
People get that.
Shawn Weber (44:33):
You know it's correct because it rhymes.
And it will exhaust the otherside because eventually they'll
run out of things to be pissedoff about I actually tried that
on a relative who was very, uh,politically minded in a
different way than I am, and Ijust asked well, tell me what
brings you to that conclusion?
(44:53):
You know, in a, j and I wasactually what changed about, as
is I was not.
You know, you always say youwant to listen, to listen, not
listen to reply, listen tounderstand.
So I was actually legitimatelycurious how this person could
have come to this, what Ithought was a bizarre conclusion
.
It was a bizarre conclusion andlogic was off the rails, but I
(45:18):
understand him better.
I understand how he got.
Peter Roussos (45:20):
There was off the rails, but I understand him
better, I understand how he gotthere and it enabled me to have
a conversation with this personwhose views I view as nuts, but
I was able to understand thembetter and we didn't end up
fighting, which is usually whathappens when we talk about these
things, don, if we go back tothis scenario that you were
(45:41):
describing and this isn't alwayspossible but if there is the
opportunity on the front end toprepare for a conversation like
that, one of the things that Iwould want to talk with that
person about is, again, thisidea of personal responsibility
and how he or she thinks oftheir decision to have an affair
, and how willing are they toreally try to understand the
(46:06):
pain that it caused the otherperson.
And, in that spirit of takingpersonal responsibility, how
upset does the other person getto be?
And, if they're able to thinkof it in those terms, to to
perhaps understand that part ofthat person's pain and their
anger is something that is aresult of their actions?
(46:27):
Does that allow them to groundthemselves, to be more curious,
to be more effective in theirown self-management, so that
that other person, the partner,can say what they need to say?
Shawn Weber (46:43):
That other person, the partner, can say what they
need to say.
You're reminding me of a case Ihad where there was an affair
and the poor wife she wasdevastated by this affair, but
she looked like she'd swalloweda lemon the entire time and she
kept talking about the mistress.
The husband kept saying thingslike well, these things don't
happen in a vacuum, you knowthat kind of thing.
(47:04):
And finally I realized she justneeded to express.
So what I did in this and maybeyou, james, you can give me
some critique on this I justsaid to the husband and the
attorney was there and theattorneys were present and I got
buy-in.
I said I'm gonna say somethings.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna repeatback to you what is making your
(47:27):
wife so angry with you, the, thebehaviors, the things that she
wants to change, what'supsetting her.
I want you to listen carefullyand I want you to not respond.
I want you to just bend overand take it like a man.
That's what I told him that wasgood, and so I did that.
I did that, I, I, I I told thiswoman's point of view from the
(47:47):
mediators.
You know, as a mediator, kindof acting as a translator, I
used the best neutral language Icould but basically articulated
what was making her so upset.
She felt, felt better.
He wasn't necessarily thrilled,but he wasn't biting bag.
Dr. James Walton (48:04):
And you could have put a little capper on that
too and say does this makesense to you?
Not that you agree with it.
Shawn Weber (48:11):
Does it make sense to you?
Dr. James Walton (48:12):
Yeah, does it make sense to you.
And if he were to say, yes,that makes sense to me, that's
reasonable, I could see whereshe's coming from.
Yes, that makes sense to me,that's reasonable, I could see
where she's coming from.
That would immediately dispelthe anger on her side.
You would see that starting tocome down.
Shawn Weber (48:28):
Yeah, well, and that's what happened with this
case.
I mean, she changed from thatmoment forward because she was
seen for the first time.
Dr. James Walton (48:39):
Or she felt that she was seen.
People have big emotionsbecause they want to be seen.
The bigger they get, the moreyou're able to see them.
Is what's happening behind that?
My emotions are big because Iwant to be seen.
The moment I'm seen.
I don't need to put that muchenergy into the emotions.
I can conserve that energy.
Now, if you wanted to reallyreally make this, tie this up in
(49:03):
a nice bow and I'm not sayingthat most people going through
divorce wouldn't do this.
But after saying that makessense to me if you were to say,
is there anything I can do tomake this up to you, that would,
yes, give me all the money.
Match point.
Shawn Weber (49:21):
Put yourself in a car and drive off a cliff.
Yeah Well, I think you're right, though I think if the people
have the ability to ask thatquestion, that means we've
crossed a threshold, right.
Dr. James Walton (49:37):
Yeah, and that might be a pre-divorce thing.
If people can do that beforethey get to divorce, that might
be something that turns itaround off the cliff.
Can I make this up to you?
Peter Roussos (49:49):
And James, I'm thinking, can I make this up to
you, or even an apology?
I remember reading aboutresearch looking at malpractice
suits for medical doctors andand how different the outcome of
those cases is when thosehospitals or those doctors from
(50:10):
the get go acknowledge theirmistakes and apologize to the
parties.
Mark Hill (50:20):
You know that that those settlements are lower,
that type of thing.
But often the insurance companywill say don't admit to any
fault.
Right.
Dr. James Walton (50:27):
Right, right, right.
The lawyers in the insurancecompanies are saying don't admit
to fault, right.
But I've read that same studyand there's a lot of truth in it
.
There's a lot of truth in it.
Shawn Weber (50:38):
Well, we've seen from things like the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission inSouth Africa where, you know,
we've actually had people speakto some of our professional
groups where this ability tojust tell the story of what
happened and it's okay to tellthat story and it's okay to
(51:00):
admit when you were wrong andwhat was powerful about the
Truth and ReconciliationCommission is, as long as you
told the truth, you were immuneand it was marvelous healing
that happened as a result ofthat.
Was it perfect?
Probably not, but I think itwent a long way for that for
South Africa, and it's beentried in other places like
(51:20):
rwanda, where they had genocide,and other places.
Um, northern ireland northernireland it was tried and and
every time it's tried, there'sthis powerful ability to maybe
not fix the problem but to beable to move on from the hurt,
because people as youacknowledge you acknowledge it
happened.
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Hill (51:43):
We're talking serious things.
Shawn Weber (51:44):
We're talking about like war crimes, yeah.
Dr. James Walton (51:47):
Yeah, they actually did a form of that in
Pennsylvania as diversion fordiversion programs.
It's called restorativepractice.
Peter Roussos (51:58):
Oh, interesting.
Dr. James Walton (51:59):
And in restorative practice, you get
the person who did the offenseand the person that was hurt.
You get them in a spacetogether and then you talk about
like the offender, theperpetrator, what happened, what
were you thinking about at thetime that you were committing
this crime or you were doingthis thing or you were hitting
or whatever it was that theywere doing?
(52:20):
And then you ask them whatthoughts they've had about that
situation since then, and thereare a list of questions they
have, and then the person who'sbeen injured gets to respond
what was your reaction to whathappened?
You know what happened to you.
What was your reaction?
What were you thinking about atthe time?
You know that it occurred, whatwas the hardest thing for you
(52:43):
about this experience?
And they're communicating witheach other about where they were
and very often they're able tocome to a resolution that
doesn't involve the justicesystem, but they're able to work
it out between themselves.
Shawn Weber (52:57):
Well, james, we've been at this for about an hour.
You can tell it's a goodconversation, because I feel
like we could just keep going.
I think we could.
It was wonderful having youjoin us and I just kind of want
to summarize for the consumerout there, the people that are
facing the divorce and maybe thepeople that are angry, some of
(53:18):
what I heard from you and youcan tell me if I caught it all.
So the number one is whenyou're angry, that's a normal
thing.
Don't think that you'reabnormal because you're angry.
Use your words, use eyestatements, focus on interests,
not on your anger.
Dr. James Walton (53:37):
Interests are the reasons.
Right, Right Interests are thereasons.
Shawn Weber (53:42):
Yeah, use genuine curiosity when you're talking to
each other about things thatmake you angry.
Be strategic rather thanemotional.
Get from your right brain toyour left brain.
Yeah, it's OK if you don'tagree.
Yeah, it's OK if you don'tagree, and I can choose how I
(54:05):
respond.
Anything else.
Dr. James Walton (54:07):
When you were talking about from getting from
right brain to left brain.
Name the emotions, it's OK.
Shawn Weber (54:12):
Name that feeling right.
Dr. James Walton (54:13):
Name that feeling.
So if it's like you're angry,say I'm angry.
That does help it to move fromright brain to left brain, kind
of that self-awareness.
Shawn Weber (54:23):
I am in fact angry.
Dr. James Walton (54:24):
I am, yeah, I am angry.
Shawn Weber (54:26):
That does help it to move from a right brain to
left brain, kind of thatself-awareness.
I am, in fact, angry.
I am, yeah, I am angry.
I am enraged.
Yes, yeah, yeah, okay, verygood.
Well, james, if people wantedto work with you to manage their
anger and other issues inregards to their divorce from an
emotional perspective, whatshould they do?
Dr. James Walton (54:42):
You can log onto my website at
latherapistcom and all theinformation is there on how to
get in contact with me, and Iwork with people online
throughout California, or I alsosee people in person who are
living in the LA area, or I alsosee people in person who are
living in the LA area.
Shawn Weber (55:03):
Very good, and, by the way, I went through his Web
site.
James Web site is excellent.
It's a.
It's a.
There's a lot of resourcesthere.
Mark, if people needed to talkto you about the financial
aspects of their divorce, whatshould they do?
Mark Hill (55:16):
Same thing.
Go to my Web site Packeddivorce PACDIBORCorcecom.
Fill out our contact form.
We also have a lot ofinformation about what we do and
, candidly, what we don't do,which is go to court anymore.
Peter Roussos (55:40):
Okay and Pete, if people wanted to work with you
regarding their divorce andother counseling issues, what
should they do?
Also, my website, which isPeterRussoscom
P-E-T-E-R-R-O-U-S-S-O-Scom, andmy contact me page there.
They can email me from there.
Shawn Weber (55:53):
Excellent, and if anybody wants to work with a
mediator at any kind of dispute,I am there to help with that.
From a legal perspective, it'sWeberDisputeResolutioncom.
That's Weber with one B, likethe grill dispute, like we had a
fight and resolution, like wesolved it and go there and we
will match you with a mediatorwho will help you resolve your
(56:16):
dispute.
Well guys, we've done it again.
It's been great.
I really appreciate JamesWalton for joining us a
wonderful therapist andpsychologist in the LA area and
I look forward to seeing more ofyou around, james, as we
continue this great work inCalifornia.
And for those of you that areout there dealing with anger, we
(56:39):
wish you the best and we'rehopeful that this podcast is
something that'd be useful foryou.
Dr. James Walton (56:45):
Well, thank you for having me.
I appreciate it, james.
Thank you, james.
Bye everybody.
Shawn Weber (56:59):
Thanks for listening to another episode of
the Three Wisemen of DivorceMoney, psych and Law.
If you like what you heard, besure to subscribe, leave us a
review and share with others whomay be in a similar place.
Until next time, stay safe,healthy and focused on a
positive, bright future.
This podcast is forinformational purposes only.
Bright future this podcast isfor informational purposes only.
(57:21):
Every family law case is unique, so no legal, financial or
mental health advice is intendedduring this podcast.
If you need help with yourspecific situation, feel free to
schedule a time to speak withone of us for a personal
consultation.
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