February 12, 2025 • 57 mins
This episode emphasizes the importance of aligning our lives with God's mission through active participation in our communities. By sharing personal stories and insights, Greg Finke illustrates how everyday discipleship transforms lives and encourages listeners to embrace their role in loving and serving others.
• Importance of recognizing God's calling in our lives
• The role of community in practical discipleship
• Embracing a 'life of love' as a mission statement
• Fear of God as a push toward deeper faith, not a barrier
• Active participation versus passive observance in faith
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now if I'm standing steadfast against the Lord.
Oh yeah, it can get very afraid, but here's more.
What I would say is that youknow, god will get us going on
the path he wants us to go.
It's just how hard are we goingto make it on ourselves before
we do?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive and I pray that Jesus, by
the power of the Word and HolySpirit, is coming alive for you,
that, as every single day, youimmerse yourself in the Word of
God.
You see, it's an active book,it's living, it's moving and it
moves us out into our communityto see where God, by the power
of the Spirit, is at work in thelives of people, bringing them
(00:42):
to faith and on the way to faith, inviting us to be his
mouthpiece, his hands and feet.
It's an awesome privilege thatI have today to hang out with a
man that I have respected fromafar and from time to time he
and I get to hang out and it'san absolute privilege.
This is Greg Finke.
Greg has been a longtimeLutheran Church Missouri
(01:04):
Ascended Pastor and a number ofyears ago I'll let him tell the
story he had this call that themission has to go out Like we
can't as pastors.
It seems kind of ironic,because I'm a pastor behind a
desk at a church office.
We can't just hang out behind adesk in a church office.
God is on the move out in theworld, and are we as church
(01:27):
leaders and just everydayfollowers of Jesus in the
marketplace, observing where Godis at work.
I listened to Greg speak at theBest Practices Conference.
Gosh, I think, greg, it wasmaybe the first Best Practices
Conference, going back maybe 14,15 years, somewhere in that
range, and that's, I think, whenwe met for the first time.
So well before we get into it,greg, how are you doing man?
(01:48):
Thanks for your generosity oftime.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well, no, I just love listening to you talk.
So I'm good Praying and talkingand blessing people.
I love it.
So you know it's great to bewith you and I'm honored to be
able to have a chat with you andhopefully something spills over
and is helpful to the peoplelistening Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, there's no doubt it will, because the Holy
Spirit's involved.
So how did you come up, tellthe story of Dwelling 114, how
you kind of came up with it, andthen we'll get into a little
bit of the mission of theministry Greg.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, well for sure.
Well, first of all, yeah, likea lot of things, I wasn't
looking for this to happen.
I can go way back and say I hadno plans on being a pastor and
God didn't care and, you know,forced me to become a pastor.
And then, you know, you followhis way and fruit happens.
And that was certainly the casefor us, and I never anticipated
not being a pastor of a localchurch.
(02:47):
But again, god really didn'task my permission, didn't give
me a heads up.
He just started messing with meand all of a sudden, at a
certain point back in 2011, Irealized he was asking us to
drop the nets, which, whenyou're the senior pastor of a
large church, it's kind of crazyto get that kind of a calling
(03:11):
to drop your nets and follow him.
But there was indeed, like yousaid, just a real awareness that
mission was not happening for alot of people, even though the
desire to be on mission did.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Greg, I have to interrupt you there.
You use a word and some peoplemay have had a pause.
Like God forces me to dosomething, like he forced you to
be a pastor.
Tell that story.
How did that—you were compelled, you couldn't do anything else
or was it literally like thisyeah, well, I mean one can use
whatever word you want, but itwas against my will.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
I had a real clear sense that I wanted to be a
Lutheran high school educator,to be a history teacher and a
coach.
That's what I wanted to do.
I came from a long line ofLutheran teachers.
I loved interacting in that wayand had every intention of
doing that.
Went off to Concordia, chicago,and about during my Christmas
(04:11):
break.
God just truly sat on me in aremarkable way until I, if you
will you know called uncle andsaid, ok, I will be a pastor.
And it was if this huge thumbcame off my chest and all of a
sudden, all the reasons I hadfor not being a pastor just
(04:32):
evaporated and I went back toConcordia, enrolled, changed my
major to a pre-sem stilleducation, but pre-sem and
started taking all the languages.
And then, you know, um, sevenyears later, seven years later,
got my first assignment inMichigan.
So, yeah, what I mean by thatis not that God was.
It's just like when we talkabout in joining Jesus on his
(04:55):
mission, the book Jesus messingwith us, it's never to be mean
or to pick on us.
It's to get us to notice thingsand respond to things that we
never would have before had henot poked us and got us to
wrestle with him a little bit,and that's certainly it.
(05:15):
I knew I didn't want to do it.
My grandpa had been a pastor.
I was like, nope, that is notfor me.
But God's like okay.
Well, it was kind of like Jacobto Israel.
I'm no Jacob, I'll never be inIsrael.
But Greg, you know, gotwrestled to the ground and I
finally said yes, sir, and offwe went and the same kind of
(05:37):
thing happened, starting 2114.
Didn't want to stop Thoughtthis is what I'm doing, god's
blessing it.
We had been in growing churchesin Michigan and then in uh and
then in Houston, and but Godjust uh, really made it clear we
were to drop the nets andfollow him.
And I never thought it would.
(05:57):
Uh, uh, you know, as I wrestledwith him, uh, he wasn't giving
me much details other than whatpart of drop the nets don't you
get.
So we did, we resigned thatcall and started Dwelly 114.
And now it's been a crazy rideever since.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, let's go deeper into that part of your story.
I've been wrestling a lotlately, greg, with the fear of
God.
You know we are.
Luther says we are to fear andlove God and there is this sense
of.
I mean, the primary nature ofGod is is love right, and we
know that's true because ofJesus and his love for us, shown
through a cross and empty tomb,and his, his reign, and the
(06:35):
indwelling comforter, the spirit.
So God's primary disposition isis love.
But yet if I reject his callupon my life based on how he's
wired me and the people he'splaced around me, that can
confirm that that call.
Like there is an appropriatesense of fear.
Like I fear sometimes you knowon respective podcasts or maybe
(06:58):
it's in relationship with folksin our church like sometimes
there's a harder word that needsto be spoken and I fear not
speaking that word.
I fear God in not speaking thatword more than I fear maybe the
result of a change in arelationship.
Any thoughts there regardingbecause really what we're
(07:20):
talking about is the fear of Godconnected to discerning the
will of God Not a very lighttopic, it's a very kind of
heavier topic to kick ourconversation off.
But you've discerned that willof God that led you to be a
pastor and then to startDwelling 114.
Would you get into a little bitmore of the nuts and bolts of
the how that works, because Ithink as Lutherans we're very
(07:43):
reticent to say God works beyondmeans, right, beyond his word,
beyond his sacrament, beyondpeople.
And if there's a word from theLord it better be confirmed in
scripture in some way, shape orform, or else we're all wet
right.
We're going down a path that'snot connected to the will of and
word of God.
So anything more to say aboutfear of God and discernment,
greg.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, well, you brought up a very simple subject
, so thank you for throwing meinto the deep end.
No, I would say this just from,you know, having walked with
the Lord now for many yearsright, fear is not afraid.
Now, if I'm standing steadfastagainst the Lord, oh yeah, it
(08:25):
can get very afraid.
But here's more what I wouldsay is that, um, you know, god
will get us going on the path hewants us to go.
It's just hard.
How hard are we going to makeit on ourselves before we do,
right, kind of like, uh, kind oflike, uh, jonah, uh, it wasn't.
If it was, it was how hard itwas going to make it on himself
and and and there are going tobe dramatic times, probably, at
(08:47):
least in my life, where you know, there was a dramatic having
kind of if you want to call it,a slap down wrestling match, a
little season of angst, but whathappens is, over time, you
start to learn that that's howGod deals with you and instead
of it, you know, instead of ittaking months, it takes
(09:08):
sometimes minutes, right,because it's you're no longer
going.
Oh yeah, no, I OK, ok, lord,and so being able to kind of
have this deep friendship withthe Lord so that there is the
fear is still.
You know, in the Hebrew wordthat's translated fear.
You know, it's not just afraid,it's more like a deep love and
(09:29):
respect.
Right, that completely humblesme, and the longer I walk with
the Lord, the longer I'm goingto be comfortable with going oh
no, we'll go ahead and let himbe God and I'll just be the
little child that responds to it.
Now, having to say the next part, which is about what's my role
(09:49):
in speaking into the lives ofother people, I think what
happens is that human beings,and especially pastors, who are
used to being in control, weoften overstep our bounds.
We want to force righteousness,we want to force the right
decision, we want to force apathway decision, we want to
force a pathway, and whathappens too often is that we
forget we're not God and thatthe only way that a person can
(10:12):
really respond in a way that istruly pleasing to God is if
they're responding to God andnot to my oversteppage of that
Right.
And so I think what, what youknow, paul says and this is
what's so hard for us it'stelling the truth and love,
which means I love you enough totell you the truth.
But I also love you enough toleave you to your own wrestling
(10:33):
with the Lord.
I can't save you from thatwrestling match.
I can't force you, I can't makeyou, but I can love you enough
to walk with you, even as youmight continue to wrestle with
it.
But here's what I can also doif I'm given the privilege of
walking with you is after you'vedone that.
Now I can help you learn fromthat experience, even as I've
(10:54):
had to learn from thatexperience and I've done that
with my own children that arenow grown children I've also
been able to do that with peoplethat I have long term
relationship friendships with,with people that I have
long-term relationshipfriendships with.
And it's really cool becauseit's through that experience of
wrestling and seeing oh, god'sway was the better way, right.
It's kind of like the Proverb 3, you know that we lean not on
(11:19):
our own understanding, for hewill make our paths straight.
And I look back and it does notlook like my path was straight
and it's only because it was myexpectations that I kept going
left and right and left andright.
And yet I look back and I go,oh, in the midst of all, that
there really was a straight paththat the Lord was leading me on
, but I couldn't necessarily seethat as a 19 year old right, I
(11:41):
had 19 years of goofballexperience rather than 60 plus
years of of, uh, of, of more ofan arc of experience that I
could look at.
So that's why I think Paul saysyou know, young people are wise
to listen to older peoplebecause of the wisdom, and that
wisdom is learned the hard way.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Hey, that's, that's so good.
Um, the Holy spirit.
I've been reflecting on theHoly Spirit an awful lot lately,
right?
I mean, it's often it's theFather and the Son, and then
it's the Holy Spirit, and often,as Jesus talks about, you're
going to receive somethingthat's different than John's
(12:26):
baptism, for you'll receive thepromise of the Holy Spirit.
It was just like this.
And then I went back to thebeginning of Luke and it was the
exact same promise and theexact same water, connected to
the Word that Jesus experienced,and then the Word of God.
This is my beloved Son, in whomI love.
That was the exact same promisethat Jesus was anticipating for
(12:47):
the early believers.
Go to Jerusalem, wait, and thenPeter gives, in Acts 2, the
greatest sermon you know,cutting to the heart what must
we do to be saved?
Be repent of your sins and bebaptized for the forgiveness of
your sins and you will receivethe gift of the Holy Spirit.
So then, when Luther starts totalk about remembering your
baptism, this is walking in stepwith the promises of God as a
(13:11):
child of God, connected to theword of God and connected then
to the way of Jesus, because wehave the Holy Spirit, we have
the representation.
We actually have themanifestation of Christ within
us, not just individually, butwithin us as the body of Christ.
So when a brother or sister I'mlanding the plane here when a
brother or sister speaks a wordto us connected to discernment,
(13:34):
connected to the I see in youconversation how they see God at
work in our lives or where theysee maybe us listening to the
accuser or living in shame orguilt, we are wise to listen to,
just like the early churchlistened to Peter and received
the promise of baptism.
We're wise to listen to ourelders who have had obviously
(13:55):
had an encounter with the Lordconnected to his word, have a
call upon their life and they'rejust like, hey, I'd love to
apprentice you.
I think one of the betterdefinitions of discipleship,
greg, is apprenticeship.
Right, I just want to, as Ifollow Jesus, come, follow me.
That appears to be the way thatJesus did it with his disciples
and obviously Paul did it withthe early church as well.
Any kind of connection todiscernment and the Holy Spirit,
(14:17):
as you hear me kind of givingthe arc of the way the Holy
Spirit presented himself in theNew Testament.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, no, I think when we repeat the words of
Jesus right, and especially inthe grace and truth, in other
words, grace that brings, truth,that sets free, doesn't try to
control, doesn't try tomanipulate, and that's what I
really think is a real danger inour current it's always been a
(14:48):
danger, but it's certainly acurrent in our present milieu of
the North American church isthat we try to use truth to
force people to think like us,believe like us, vote like us,
et cetera.
That is not grace and truth,that is your own, et cetera.
That is not grace and truth.
That is your own twisting ofthe law to force.
But if we start and I love theway you said it, because I think
(15:17):
we underestimate we always readthe gospels and we want to skip
ahead to the end of each of thegospels, to the death and
resurrection of Jesus, and weforget that the whole previous
part of that Jesus is disciplingus, apprenticing us in how to
live a life of love.
And when we start to go, oh,love in action is certainly an
activity, but it's also oftenwords.
(15:39):
And if we can start to lookpeople in the face and help them
with the good news of God, thegrace of God, the mercy of God,
just like Jesus did to the least, the lost and the last, the
Pharisees full of themselves.
Yeah, you're going to get atough word, but the rest of you?
I need you to hear the goodnews of God.
Right, that's what he wentaround, mark, chapter one,
(16:01):
that's what he went around youknow, galilee proclaiming the
good news of God, and we turnthe good news of God into I
don't know law instead of oh no,I got good news for you and and
just being that good newsperson and to, to, to mentor
people through that, again, Ican't, I can't, I can't get you.
(16:22):
I'm not going to be able to getyou out of the headlock.
God has you in.
There's reason for that purpose, for that, and it's good, right
.
But what I can do is remind youthat, oh no, he's, he's like a
big daddy wrestling with you onthe floor.
It may be uncomfortable, you maybe squirming, but it's for a
good outcome.
How do I know?
Well, let me tell you a storyof what had happened in my life.
(16:43):
Let me remind you of how Peterhad to squirm all that.
But we need someone that canspeak that to us in our life and
if you don't have somebody likethat, go ahead and start
praying about and then startthinking about who are the
people that are within yourreach?
Might be in your church.
(17:04):
Family probably is Certainly.
It might even be in yourneighborhood or workplace where
there's a more mature followerof Jesus that can be someone you
have a regular cup of coffeewith to do that, because we
forget that.
Well, we don't forget Salvation,we know, is an action between
(17:26):
God and us, which, with Goddoing all the action
Discipleship, apprenticeship,sanctification is something that
God does as well, but itrequires our participation, and
what we forget is that it alsorequires usually another human
being, a human being.
(17:46):
In other words, if we start andthis gets us to a little bit of
, I guess what our 2114 ministryis about is the mission part is
supported by the discipleshippart, and what we forget about
discipleship is that it happenedin the gospels, with Jesus
telling the disciples come,follow me, be with me, watch
what I'm doing, see my example.
(18:07):
Then I want you to follow myexample.
When we start chasing then,that same idea through not only
the gospels but the epistles,you start seeing it all over the
place with Paul, philippians3.17,.
You know, whatever you've seenin me, whatever you've you know,
follow my example and take noteof those that are living
(18:28):
according to my example and thepattern that I gave you.
Hebrews 13, 7,.
Take note of the outcome oftheir way of life and imitate
their faith.
Such a powerful and simpleverse.
I want you to know them wellenough that you can see the
outcome of how they live so thatyou can then start imitating
that.
Well, that's only going tohappen through relationship.
(18:50):
If I'm sitting in a pew andlistening to my pastor, I see
how he preaches, but that's not.
I don't see the outcome of away of life.
Likewise, in a small group, ifwe're simply talking about the
Bible class questions or thesmall group discussion questions
and we never get around to,here's what's going on in my
(19:11):
life and here's what's happening, I don't know how God's working
through your living a life oflove.
You know, humbling yourself,serving others, just like Jesus
showed us.
I don't see the outcome of thatand I don't know how to start
imitating that.
But man, with just one steptowards that kind of
relationship and intentionality,lives can be transformed.
(19:32):
And multiplication of that wayof life starts to happen in a
congregation.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Pretty cool Well you wouldn't be where you're at in
terms of leading this ministryas well as a pastor, unless
there were men and women overthe years, at the right point,
who did just that.
And human beings want a mirrorwe want to follow, we want to
have examples, an ideal, andobviously it's Christ.
(19:56):
It's a cruciform life ofsacrifice and service.
But I have to see it modeledand that's one of the, I guess,
compulsions you talk about theheaviness of God.
It's a lightness.
His yoke is easy, his burden islight for sure.
But I feel, since I was in afamily that was so healthy and a
dad, and that I got to see,model out what it looks like to
(20:19):
lead with humility and courageand I've got multiple my
father-in-law, my brother, likethere's just a lot of us who are
on this Jesus path and invitingothers to follow us as we
follow Jesus, I'm like compelledto speak.
Woe to me if I don't speak.
And where you were kind of maybeon the side, referring to the
(20:41):
desire in all of us Not in some,but in all of us toward power
and compulsion, and my way.
That's obviously not the Jesusway.
That's the flesh in us and inus individually and I would say
in us, potentially corporately.
But the way of Jesus isinvitational, it's not
compulsion.
Come and follow me and learnhow I do it.
(21:03):
I guess I could reject thatinvitation.
Why would I want to?
Because it's the greatestadventure of all time Come and
see how I'm at work out in theworld.
So let's get into mission here,greg, a bit.
What does participating inaccomplishing the mission look
like?
We've talked a fair amountabout discipleship and even Link
mobilized us in thediscipleship apprenticeship
(21:24):
conversation to join Jesus inhis mission out in the world to
get all of his kids back.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, no, and that's what we have made something that
is simple and already summed upwonderfully in the scriptures.
We've complicated it and madeit very vague again.
Jesus made it clear this is howpeople will know that you have
been discipled by me, how youlove, right Paul in Ephesians 5,
(21:51):
verse 2, live a life of love.
Well, what does the life oflove look like?
He answers it Following theexample of Christ, who loved us
and gave himself for us.
Jesus in John 13, 34, as I haveloved you, I want you now to
love one another.
There's a self-sacrificial love.
(22:12):
That is the core, the center,it's everything right.
And then you know, in 1 Johnjust read 1 John, 4, verses 7
and following, and it's like anamazing laying out by John,
through the Holy Spirit, of whatlove is.
You know, love first of allcomes from God.
(22:32):
And then he says this is love,not that we love God, but that
God loved us and gave his son asan atoning sacrifice for our
sin.
Now that we have been so andI'll throw in the word
sacrificially loved, becausethat's what he's talking about
Now that we have been so loved,let us now love one another.
And then he goes on to saythat's how this love is made
(22:53):
complete.
And, of course, we love alittle later.
We love why?
Because he first loved us.
That's not just our motivation,that's where the love comes
from People I know I talk about.
You know Jesus, summing up thelaw and the prophets love the
Lord, your God, and love yourneighbor as yourself.
(23:14):
You say, well, how can I lovemy neighbor as myself?
I don't even love myself.
And I say I got good news foryou because God loves you, right
?
I love because God first lovedme.
I don't have love for myneighbor loves you, right?
I love because God first lovedme.
I don't have love for myneighbor, but I take a deep
(23:35):
drink of the love that I needand then I offer a cool cup of
water of that love to him.
And so our life, then, is livinga life of love, which you know
again, according to scripture,first I received that love
freely, fully.
I trust it, I'm convinced of it, and then, now that I have this
love, I go out looking forpeople that need a little bit of
what I already have inabundance.
And that's my life.
(23:55):
My vocation is, you know, theseason and place that I'm living
life.
And if you think about all theChristians all over the world,
if they woke up every morningremembered that they are loved
and forgiven and redeemed by Godand through Christ.
And now I'm going to go outlooking for people that need a
little bit of taste of that, andI get to be the little kid
(24:16):
going around looking for peopleand I'm going to work and I'm
running the kids and I'm youknow, I'm mowing the lawn, I'm
doing the stuff I've been doing,but now I'm doing it as a
follower of Jesus, and afollower of Jesus looks for
people that needs love andoffers it to them.
And if we do that consistentlyand intentionally with those
(24:36):
that are around us on a regularbasis, we'll even get to see the
growth and the fruit thatstarts to come of that.
You know, love people a longlife's way.
You know, do that that you'llnever see again.
Absolutely Throw the seed onthem.
But the ones that and this iswhat we really emphasize is you
know, get to know, start to hangout with and intentionally love
(24:58):
the people God's placed aroundyou.
And we always have to tellespecially it's just North
American Christians in general,but Lutherans tend to have a
little trouble Love them in sucha way that they know they have
been loved, because most of thetime we love them but never do
anything with it.
And it's love in action that itwasn't that God loved us and
(25:21):
saved us.
It's that God loved us and didsomething about it.
Right.
Love in action, for God soloved the world that he gave,
and so that's where to be ableto go.
What does it look like for ourpeople to participate in
accomplishing the mission of God?
Well, the mission of God is toget his kids back, all of them,
(25:41):
to redeem and restore all things.
That's a God thing.
Only God can save the world,but he invites us to participate
, to join him.
And again that Ephesians 5.2starts right before 5.2 is 5.1,
right, and it's a crazy.
I mean, if you read it, it'scrazy.
Be imitators of God.
(26:01):
Well, for heaven's sakes, howcan I be an imitator of God?
Not by doing all things andknowing all things.
It's by being willing to lovelike God loves.
And how do?
I do that Well, I love the waythat he first loved me.
Now that I know that, now I canlive a life of love, imitating
Jesus, who I can see, who lovedme and gave himself for me, and
(26:27):
if we can realize wow, that'sthe ballgame, guys.
Everything else is details thatstill lead back to the heart of
that, which is God loves you.
Now you go, love.
God forgives you in Christ.
Now you go, look for peoplethat need forgiveness.
You know that's what Jesus sumsup in Luke 24 when he's sending
him out.
He's like you know, I'm thefulfillment.
(26:48):
Remember, I told you I had tofulfill everything the law, the
prophets, the writing said.
And then he said now open yourmind to the scriptures.
And now we're waiting for adeep something.
Right, man, this is going to bedeep and we've never heard this
before.
And he said well, here's whatit all means the son of man must
suffer, rise on the third dayand forgiveness of sins will be
preached in his name to allnations.
(27:08):
Any questions?
I mean, that's what Habakkuk 3was talking about.
Yeah, I'm not quite.
I don't know all the dots tothe connections, but yeah,
that's what Habakkuk 3 was.
How about Ezekiel 31?
Yeah, somehow that connectsback to me knowing I've been
forgiven.
And now I get to go out and bea little fellow that goes out
and make sure people know thatthey are loved and forgiven.
And now I get to go out and bea little fellow that goes out
(27:28):
and make sure people know thatthey are loved and forgiven.
And if we can keep it that clearand simple, which the Bible
obviously does, you know, goingback Galatians, the only thing
that matters is faith,expressing itself through love.
Any questions?
So if we can remember, allthese things lead back to
receiving love and then beingthe distribution system of love.
(27:50):
Now mission, you're going tosee it happening in front of you
, consistently and frequently,over and over again.
Because the one thing we forgetwe study it, we understand it,
we believe it we forget to goout and do it.
We study it, we understand it,we believe it we forget to go
out and do it.
And when we go out and lovepeople guess what People that
(28:10):
need love?
They come to life.
They come to life.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Greg.
Okay, so many things.
One, if you go back and listento the last five minutes or so,
greg is dropping scripture likea beast man and if I'm going to
summarize, what you're saying iswe have been loved by God to
love him in return.
(28:35):
I'm doing two kinds ofrighteousness, here and now.
God doesn't need our love.
He couldn't be any more proudof us than he is right now.
Through faith in his son, hesmiles over us.
We smile back and we carry thatsmile, the love, the care, the
kindness of Jesus into the worldto love our neighbors as a
living manifestation of whoJesus is, who God is.
(28:57):
God is love.
I'm turned on to a book calledBecoming the Gospel by Michael
Gorman.
Have you heard of this book?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Greg no, but that sounds like he's stealing it
from Jesus.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah, that is good.
That's good, you don't need tocreate anything.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
There's no original content here and what he does is
he looks at the Apostle Paul.
So he says all of Paul'swritings have a missional focus,
a missional lens, a missionalaim.
Yes, couldn't agree more.
And then he goes deep into howPaul uses these three verbs.
And you see in 1 Thessalonians,and you see it in a number of
(29:34):
his other letters, and it's atthe very, very beginning.
This is 1 Thessalonians 1,which we think is one of, if not
his first letter, his tightestletter to the church there in
Thessalonica.
We give thanks to God always forall of you, constantly
remembering you in our prayers,remembering before our God and
Father your and here comes thethree verbs your work of faith.
(29:56):
So, from faith and for faithGod has claimed you.
You trust in his promises, youtrust in his word, your work of
faith.
And then I love this your laborof love.
So as you've received faith,there's this work.
You're being known in thecommunity.
I'm being known in thecommunity because you're working
out love and then yoursteadfastness of hope in our
(30:20):
Lord Jesus Christ.
So we look at I think it's 1Corinthians right Faith, hope
and love.
But actually the pattern inmost of Paul's letters is faith,
love and then hope.
And so he has this really coolphrase that he's actually coming
on this podcast in a month orso.
He has this really cool phrasecalled participatory
anticipation.
(30:41):
It's a mouthful Participatoryanticipation.
So, as God is at work for me,shown through the cross and the
empty tomb, but the risen onenow reigns over all things, we
should talk more about theascension, I believe, the reign
of God over all things, and thenhow he's working in the world
by the power of his spirit,making us the temple of his Holy
Spirit and then us as thechurch, the body of Christ.
(31:04):
This is the way the world bedrawn to Jesus and I get to
participate.
I'm not Jesus, but I'm likeJesus.
You know he chooses to workthrough me.
I have fallen feeble, broken,frail, frail, little me, that
little guy.
I love how you were referringthat little guy.
Look at him, go.
I think that's the way God islike.
Look at that little guy doing,doing my thing, you know,
carrying my spirit, carrying myword out into the world.
(31:25):
But if you ever noticed that,that kind of move of Paul from
faith to the labor of love tothen the hope obviously when he
talks hope he's talking aboutthe power of the resurrection,
that coming day when love willbe all that we know.
The love of God will be infusedthrough us, for us and to all
of the cosmos on that great andglorious last day when he
returns to make all things new.
(31:46):
Have you wrestled with thatkind of move of the Apostle Paul
ever, greg?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Well, not specifically with the letter to
Thessalonians and thatexegetical thing, but the good
news is that's exactly what Isee over and over again, with
people that do what we give,that do what Jesus gave them to
do.
This is not a worksrighteousness, this is not a
have to.
This is not an earn something,gain something, prove something.
(32:13):
Earn something, gain something,prove something.
This is what happens.
When I start to believe that Iam loved by God abundantly in
Christ because of Jesus, andthen start living that out for
the good of others, you start tosee that is it work?
Well, sure, it's work, butyou're working anyway.
Why not do something that'sgonna bear fruit?
And then you actually see thefruit and it gives you all the
more hope that this is realright.
(32:35):
And that gives you all the morehope that this is real right
and that gives you all the moreconfidence that the other
promises God has made in Christoh yeah, we'll see those too,
because we're seeing these beingkept.
But I think this is what mywork with individuals and
congregations.
This is where the rubber hitsthe road.
We understand it, we believe it, but we don't participate in it
(32:57):
.
So we have 80 year olds thathave been going to church all
their life, who still haven'tbeen able to participate in the
fun stuff.
Right, because all we've doneis we've discussed it, we've
heard it, we've believed it,we've sung about it, we've
prayed about it, but we haven'tgone out and done something with
it.
And that's where you knowdwelling 114 comes from John 114
(33:24):
.
The word became flesh and madehis dwelling among us.
And one of the things that weremind people is you know,
you're not Jesus, no one's goingto mistake you from Jesus.
But now, in Christ, throughbaptism, you got Jesus in you.
And when you even have a littlelove, joy, peace, patience,
goodness, kindness, get outthrough you it's from God, but
it gets out through you thenyou're going to look a lot more
like Jesus and those people aregoing to be benefited a whole
(33:46):
lot more than if you justignored them.
And so we then, through deathand resurrection of Jesus, we're
redeemed or restored, baptismthrough, or the Holy Spirit in
us, through baptism.
Now what I tell people is we arenow the word made flesh, not
because we're Jesus, but becausewe got Jesus in us.
(34:06):
And what people around us needis the word becoming active,
tangible, experiential.
There were 39 books of theBible in play when Jesus arrived
, and yet he was the word madeflesh.
We didn't need more words.
God sent Jesus because weneeded an example of what does
(34:27):
it look like for a human beingto live out these words?
And we sometimes get distractedbecause Jesus, of course, was
the son of God.
So nobody can be a savior butJesus.
Distracted because Jesus, ofcourse, was the son of God, so
nobody can be a savior but Jesus.
You know, nobody's gonna beraising people from the dead or
watering the wine, but what wedo have from Jesus is also being
true man.
And so when he was baptized,like you referred to earlier,
(34:47):
that's exactly what's going onin our baptism, when we're going
off and now seeking to live alife of love, humbly, under the
father's leadership, and thenconfidently offering a little
bit of what we've got.
The results, the fruit, is God'salone right.
That's why Jesus, when he wentto Galilee or went to Nazareth,
(35:07):
there wasn't much right.
And then yet he goes to anotherplace and shazam.
You know, demons are fleeingand dead people are rising.
What God does through it is hisaction alone, but that we
participate in that humblelifestyle.
Word made flesh.
We're God's word being active,and so we forget that when we
(35:29):
receive the Holy Spirit inbaptism, we now have, as Paul
says in Philippians two, we nowhave within us the, the will,
and that we are able to will andact according to his purpose.
Why?
Because God's in us.
Now what I need, though, issomeone to disciple me, to show
how to access that and let thatout Right.
(35:49):
I need somebody to show me whatthat I've got.
It's like a little baby that isborn with all the parts, but
now I need my daddy, my mommy,to help me learn how to pull all
that, pull all that togetherand walk or run or play the
piano or play baseball.
You know, I got all the parts,but I need and I got.
I got the ability and the power, but I need somebody to help me
(36:11):
pull it all together.
That's the same thing in Christ.
You have everything you need.
You're already fully equipped.
You just don't know what to dowith the equipment.
Right?
You got love, you got joy.
You got peace, you got.
You got truth.
Uh, now here's how we use it tobenefit others, to serve others
, and that's what Jesus did.
Word made flesh.
Now we got the word in us.
We're the flesh body of Christ.
(36:32):
People usually are a littlemore comfortable with that.
We're the body of Christ and weare out there looking for
people who need a little bit ofwhat we got.
Amen.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Hey, I think the false dichotomy here is that
this is kind of anti-liturgy forthose of us that are Lutheran
or anti-Sunday or something likethat, and I don't.
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
I mean, every single Sunday,when I get to gather and there's
hundreds of people that I getthe privilege of proclaiming the
(37:02):
gospel, the forgiveness of sins, to, in my mind I'm seeing
churches of various sizes I'mnot even going to throw out but
hundreds of missionaries who areout in my congregation, who are
here to be mobilized, remindedwho they are in their baptism.
This is the liturgy right Toknow they're a sinner.
They desperately need to hearthe word of God.
They need to hear theforgiveness of sins for you for
(37:25):
sure and then they need to beshaped by the word of God
through the proclamation, thehearing of the word of God.
And then we need to live a lifeof prayer and obviously Jesus
gives us his prayer.
We need to be a confessingpeople.
That's what the creeds are allabout.
We need to be reminded, tasteand see the goodness of Jesus as
we receive his body and blood.
And then Numbers, chapter 6, weneed to be sent out with the
(37:47):
presence of the triune.
God in and for us, through theblessing, the benediction.
The Lord bless you and keep you.
This is a presence of God forthe people of God in the Old
Testament we're living out thestory of God for us.
So the best part of the liturgyis actually modeling, mirroring
my identity all the way to mysending the best parts of what a
(38:07):
Lutheran liturgy is.
So if we say it's simply aboutSunday, just get people to
Sunday.
Yeah, we got to get people toSunday.
Just get people to Sunday.
Yeah, we got to get people toSunday.
Why?
So that we can train them andsend them out into the mission
field.
Anything more to say about theconnection between Sunday and
Monday through Saturday?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yeah, well, again, my job is to make it clear, simple
, clear, simple.
So people go oh, now I get it,now I can participate in it, and
what I always say about that ishey, friends, that's what
Sunday's for.
Joining Jesus on his mission onMonday is what Sunday's for,
it's what word and sacrament isfor we do that.
(38:42):
And then what?
Sit on the bench and run outthe clock till next Sunday, or
sit on the bench and run out theclock till we die and go to
heaven someday.
No, I'm given all that abundancewithin the context of what we
do on Sunday, and that's whatit's for to go out and now I am
filled up with good news andforgiveness, I'm reminded of who
I am, and now I go out lookingfor people that need some more,
(39:06):
a little bit of that, and thenwe go do it again next Sunday,
and that's what it's for.
So we love to have anillustration that shows what
happens when people who are thechurch not just go to church,
but are the church, go out andlove their neighbors, and then
those people go back to church.
That is the gathering as acongregation word and sacrament,
(39:28):
to celebrate it, receive it, bereminded of it, be refueled by
it, and then we head back outand then we just see the love
start to spread throughout thatcommunity, but only because we
go home and get started.
Not go home and wait till nextSunday.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
It seems simple enough.
Um, the, the apostle Paul.
He's such a hero of the faith.
We've been kind of talking afair amount about him in this
podcast.
He was trained like there werea number of years, I think some
say like Paul was before hestarted doing his kind of
missionary leadership,development, multiplying
(40:07):
missions, starting churches, allof that kind of thing.
He was under the apprenticeshipof other disciples, as because
it wasn't like, I think a lot oftimes you look at the apostle
Paul, he has this crazyencounter with the crucified and
risen Jesus and then heimmediately boom like everything
changes.
No, there was characterdevelopment that took place.
(40:27):
He.
He even needed, because he's ahuman being, to connect the dots
between the prophets, law andthe prophets all the way to who
Jesus was, so that he could havethe hope and the reason, the
rationale to bring both the Jewand Gentile into the kingdom of
God, to connect Jesus as thecenter person in all of human
history.
So let's talk about and you cango off on Paul if you like, but
(40:48):
I really think it is the roleof training for the leader.
I'm seeing evangelism training,discipleship training, training
around having Jesus-centeredconversations.
That's kind of the pool thatyou've been swimming in for some
time, so talk about the role oftraining in inviting the
everyday follower of Jesus outinto his mission field.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Yeah.
So I think the main thing torealize is that in most cases,
we don't need to know more.
We need to do more with what wealready know, and that's really
what training is In many ways.
I tell people hey, after ourworkshop, I'm probably not going
to tell you anything youhaven't already known and
believed and even taughtyourselves.
But the one thing we are goingto do is introduce this crazy
(41:30):
little idea is how do we now godo it?
And so, transitioning thatthat's as good as we can get
with training in a room.
After that it's all about hey,come with me, right, hey, come
with me.
And so when they werediscipling Paul, if you will,
training him, apprenticing himthey weren't teaching him more
(41:53):
about the 39 books of the Bible.
He was a Pharisee of Pharisees.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, fair enough.
Yeah, he knew, he knew hisstuff.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
What they were doing is showing how, no, all this
ends up being aboutself-sacrificial love right, not
power, not know-how.
And the other part I think thatPaul had to learn.
I think he was a very forcefulpersonality.
I mean he was leading gangs ofpeople around rounding up
Christians, right, and so how tohow to humble that and use it
(42:23):
as a servant.
And you don't learn thatthrough academics.
You learn that through beingwith people that are humbly
using power to serve others.
And, and Paul saw that.
Paul was given that, I believe,by Jesus, absolutely.
But then, yeah, I need to seewhat it looks like being lived
out.
So Jesus with his own disciplesright, he proclaims the good
(42:46):
news of God, the time has come,the kingdom of God has arrived,
repent, believe the good news.
And then the very next thing hesays is I know you don't know
what you're doing, so comefollow me.
Now he doesn't say I know youdon't know what you're doing,
but the very next thing he saysis come follow me.
And that's because they had noidea what that meant.
They were like yeah, now whatdoes that mean?
(43:07):
Right, I love it that God'skingdom has come, but now he's
like come, follow me.
Let me show you what it lookslike to live in the reality of
the kingdom that's coming andthe will of the father being
done.
And so they went out and theysaw it.
They saw it, they saw the, thepower of the gospel.
They saw oppositions to thegospel too, but that that gave
them confidence, that were.
(43:28):
You know, you shake the dustoff there and you go there
because there's always going tobe somebody ready for what we
have to offer there, becausethere's always going to be
somebody ready for what we haveto offer.
That is the good news of God.
And so that's where, when we'retalking about training, the way
we set it up is we have atraining workshop so people have
clarity and simplicity aboutwhat the mission is and how they
(43:50):
get to participate in it.
And then they have a personalplan that they can then go home
and start joining Jesus.
And the congregation has acongregational plan for how
we're going to support that,celebrate that and spur each
other on for that.
And then now they got the firstpart, but they are untrained yet
(44:12):
, right, because now they haveto go out and start to gain
experience.
And that means go out, give ita run, come back, let's talk
about what happened.
Go out, give it a run, comeback and let's talk about what's
happened and, if that plan issimple enough, love your
neighbor as yourself, seek thekingdom, what God already been
(44:33):
preparing ahead of time for youto see and do and then we have
the rhythm of coming backtogether and talking about it.
So, what did you see?
Who did you love?
What did you learn?
What's your next step as thatbecomes the new rhythm?
Now I take the preaching andteaching I receive, go put it
into practice.
(44:53):
Come back to that small groupof people or that mentoring
relationship with somebody andtalk about what happened.
What did I learn?
What's next?
That becomes the rhythm, then,and you see accelerated growth.
Why?
Because now they're not justthinking about it and writing
down notes about it, but nowthey have stories and
(45:15):
experiences, both good andboo-boos, that they now are
learning from.
And now they are being trained.
They're gaining experience,skill and confidence in
following the ways of Jesus forthe good of others.
And that's the main thing we'remissing in the US church.
We come, we hear it, weunderstand it by the power of
(45:38):
the Holy Spirit, we believe it,and then we forget that.
Oh well, he gave that to us sothat we would go out and
participate in it for the goodof others.
But when we have, you know,80-year-olds, 8-year-olds,
everybody in between, going, oh,that's right, I am loved,
forgiven, and the Fatherdelights over me, well, I'm
(45:59):
going to go out and share thatwith others, because they don't
know, they don't know that Godloves them and delights in them.
They think that God has no, youknow, overlooks them or, worse,
is kind of like Luther love God, I hate God, right, because
he's always looking to havethrow me into hell.
And it's like oh, I got goodnews for you and that becomes a
(46:23):
simple reality that we becomevery good at.
Why?
Because this is who we are,this is what we do.
If I throw in all kinds of extrastuff, then I confuse people, I
bog people down, I don'tunderstand, it's not simple,
it's not doable.
(46:43):
But if it's simple and doableand I can do it over and over
again, then that identity inChrist, that simple purpose in
Christ, this is who I am, thisis what I do.
And then collectively as acongregation this is who we are,
this is what I do.
And then collectively as acongregation this is who we are,
this is what we do.
And when I walk in and I'm partof your gathering, whether it's
for worship or whether it's aclass or it's a gathering of
(47:05):
youth.
Wherever I walk in, I'm seeingthat, oh man, these are a bunch
of people that know they'reloved by God and have stories
about loving people out in thecommunity.
And that's who we are, that'swhat we do, and either I'm going
to want to be a part of this orI'm like oh, this is freaking
me out.
No, thank you, but at leastit's not just a bunch of people
(47:25):
standing around with coffeetalking about the weather, greg.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
I love it so much because Jesus loves me and I
love him and his word.
I mean listener, this is theway of Jesus Like, at its base
form.
This is what Jesus did.
He called disciples, hementored them, they got to watch
and then they got toparticipate.
(47:52):
Luke, chapter 9, the 12, lukechapter 10, the 70, 72 sent out
and they come back.
It's boomerang theology.
They come back, they debrief,they need to be reshaped,
recalibrated.
Do they have pride and ego?
That is going to get in the way, because they think they're a
big deal, because they have allthis authority, power, blah,
blah, blah.
Yeah, they need the humility,the love of Christ over and over
(48:14):
again.
But they need the humility, thelove of Christ over and over
again.
But we have made it way toocomplex.
We have intellectualized whatit looks like to follow Jesus,
and there's nothing againstcontent, there's nothing against
going deep in a certaintheological tradition or
systematic history.
There's always more to learn.
But if, at the end of the day,we think that we're closer to
(48:34):
God based on the word, I guess,the theology, the strength, I
guess, of our respectivediscipline, all the way up to a
professor and a pastor, and weforget the simplicity of
inviting others to come andfollow us as we follow Jesus and
then giving them the ability toparticipate and lovingly
checking in with them.
(48:54):
If we've, if we're not doingthat in our churches, what?
What are we?
What are we?
What are we doing?
I don't know that that's thechurch right, cause the church
is on mission to get all of his,all of his kids back.
And I, you know, you and Ihappen to be in a church body
where we have some opportunitiesfor growth and I'll just, I'll
just make a very, very straightstatement.
(49:19):
If pastors don't learn thatthey're there, yes, to bring
word, yes, to administer thesacrament, but yes, to mobilize
other people and to release themand find other men who can
teach 2 Timothy 2.2 and bringthem alongside in partnership
with word and sacrament ministry, if there are pastors that
(49:40):
think you're simply a doerrather than a developer, I don't
know.
I think you're missing thesimplicity of the way Jesus did
it and the way the early churchdid it.
So, greg, final question herehow does leadership development
and that can be a big, scaryterm, but just raising up
followers of Jesus, maybeapprenticeships under Christ,
(50:00):
how does that sort ofdevelopment work, all the way up
to pastoral formation intersectwith your missional strategy.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Well, it's the thing that says whether this is going
to be a short-lived small groupflash in the pan or whether we
are going to be unleashing aongoing discipleship movement
that people go and live a lifeof love to the ends of the earth
.
Uh, you know, in the, in thepower of Jesus.
Uh, because if, if, if, uh, uh,all we have, for instance, with
with Jesus and the 12, if allhe has was the 12, you know then
(50:37):
that movement dies out with theend of the 12th.
But they, he taught them, hediscipled them in such a way
that they knew the next step wasto disciple others.
It's not we, it's not just Idisciple you, but I disciple you
in such a way that you knowimmediately, not eventually,
immediately you're replicatingthis with somebody else.
(50:58):
You know your family, aneighbor, a coworker, so that
it's a multiplication thing.
Now one thing, just real quick,because we've been talking about
it.
We need to understand that ourunderstanding of teaching is not
the New Testament understandingof teaching.
We think it's conceptual.
Do you get it?
Do you understand it, do youbelieve it?
(51:18):
But that's not teaching in theNew Testament.
Teaching in the New Testamentis rabbinic, which means it is
culminated with a lifestyle thatimitates the rabbi.
And so when Paul is talkingabout teaching teaching what I
taught you we got to add thatwith the other places where he's
like, take note of my example,imitate me as I imitate Christ.
(51:39):
There's a lifestyle that isdescribed and revealed by, and
empowered by, the word, but youcan't that those words don't
substitute for the lifestyle,right?
That's why it's word made flesh.
And so if I'm teaching from mypulpit, I gotta remember, I
(52:00):
gotta.
We're really good.
There's three little phrasesknow what, so what?
Now what?
What do they need to know?
Why do they need to know it?
We're good at that.
What does this mean for us,right, as Lutherans?
So, know what, so what?
But we're not done preachinguntil we start helping them
understand the now, what, nowthat I know this, believe this.
(52:24):
What is he giving me to believeand do?
And likewise with seminaryprofessors, sunday school
teachers and everybody inbetween, we want to finish up
the teaching by helping peoplerealize what kind of a lifestyle
does this teaching reflect andthen send them out.
So, in a family, we're learninghow to model this lifestyle and
(52:44):
what kind of a life?
Well, it's going to be a live,a life of love.
It's going to look like love,love and action.
So don't get overly complicated.
There's lots of ways that it'scommunicated in the Bible, but
it ends up being the same thing.
Who says so Jesus?
Who says so Paul?
Who says so John?
Okay, so we got goodverification of this, and so now
(53:04):
, in a family, we can model theliving it out.
What did we hear?
What is the Bible give us tobelieve and do?
Let's go out, believe it and doit.
And now we have children, wehave adults, we have everybody
in between getting better atthis, because that's what Jesus
said Come, follow me, I'll makeyou into fishers of men.
(53:26):
You're not very good at itright now, but I will help you
become better at it by my power.
But I'm going to teach you howto get better at it by having
you tag along for three yearsand imitate and replicate that
with others.
That's how, like you said, weget from Luke 8-1, they were
with Jesus Luke 9-1, jesus sentthem to Luke 10-1, where now we
(53:49):
got 72 that he's sending.
You know, that wasn't just theangel sprinkling disciple dust
everywhere.
It was an intentionalreplication so that more and
more people caught on and got todo it and then, when you get to
Luke 24, matthew 28, now go tothe nations.
But we're not going to have 12people discipling millions of
(54:14):
people.
No, you disciple people.
That then can disciple people,that disciple people until the
nations are discipled to livethis life of love and bring the
redemption and good news ofJesus to everybody that needs it
so badly.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
That sounds like Jesus apprenticeship,
multiplication at work.
And the days are too short forus, in whatever denomination
you're a part of, to bickerargue over various points.
Like we agree we've beenjustified by grace, through
faith, and we agree that theHoly Spirit, in our baptism, has
(54:53):
filled us individually andcollectively to bring the love
and light of Christ out into adark and dying world To mirror
what we've received from theperson and light of Christ out
into a dark and dying world tomirror what we've received from
the person and work of Jesus.
So this is I love listening toyou, I love your passion, greg,
I love your ministry.
Heart Dwelling114,.
If people want to get connected, how can they do so, greg?
Speaker 1 (55:12):
Dwelling114.org is the easiest way Contact page
information.
But let me help.
Clarity and simplicity leads topeople going, oh, I can get off
the bench and get in the gametoo, and that's what we need.
We need our folks.
Give them clarity, simplicityand a plan so they get to get
off the bench and get in thegame and have their own stories,
(55:35):
whether it's after eight yearsor 80 years.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yeah, amen, amen.
This is the Tim Allman podcast.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you're takingthis in, that really really
helps.
Uh, and hopefully this.
There was a little bit of.
Well, there was law and gospelin this conversation.
If you're, if you happen to be,in a congregation where it's
just a sit and get, rather getand go, and you're a pastor,
maybe we ask for some help.
(55:59):
And if you're an everydayfollower of Jesus sitting in
pews, encourage your pastor.
I love that.
From the now what to the sowhat?
Or from the know what to the,so what to the now what, Now,
what?
Pastor, Give us that next stepinvitation to follow Jesus out
into the world, Because he'sobviously there, he's at work
and he wants us to join him inhis mission.
Your books, if anybody, I'mgiving you a first one right
(56:21):
Joining Jesus on his mission.
And what else have you written,Greg?
Speaker 1 (56:25):
Well, just the kind of the natural next step.
So joining Jesus on his mission, and then joining Jesus show me
how, which is discipleship, andthen joining Jesus as a family,
which pulls it all together sothat parents, in a wonderful,
simple way, can do that withtheir kids or grandkids.
Uh, absolutely Just.
If you start Googling joiningJesus, that's usually what comes
(56:48):
up.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
So good.
This is a Tim Allman podcast isa good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Grateful for you, greg.
We'll see you, I think a bestpractice here very, very soon.
Thanks for your generosity oftime, though, buddy, amen.
Now if I'm standing steadfast against the Lord.
Oh yeah, it can get very afraid, but here's more.
What I would say is that youknow, god will get us going on
the path he wants us to go.
It's just how hard are we goingto make it on ourselves before
we do?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive and I pray that Jesus, by
the power of the Word and HolySpirit, is coming alive for you,
that, as every single day, youimmerse yourself in the Word of
God.
You see, it's an active book,it's living, it's moving and it
moves us out into our communityto see where God, by the power
of the Spirit, is at work in thelives of people, bringing them
(00:42):
to faith and on the way to faith, inviting us to be his
mouthpiece, his hands and feet.
It's an awesome privilege thatI have today to hang out with a
man that I have respected fromafar and from time to time he
and I get to hang out and it'san absolute privilege.
This is Greg Finke.
Greg has been a longtimeLutheran Church Missouri
(01:04):
Ascended Pastor and a number ofyears ago I'll let him tell the
story he had this call that themission has to go out Like we
can't as pastors.
It seems kind of ironic,because I'm a pastor behind a
desk at a church office.
We can't just hang out behind adesk in a church office.
God is on the move out in theworld, and are we as church
(01:27):
leaders and just everydayfollowers of Jesus in the
marketplace, observing where Godis at work.
I listened to Greg speak at theBest Practices Conference.
Gosh, I think, greg, it wasmaybe the first Best Practices
Conference, going back maybe 14,15 years, somewhere in that
range, and that's, I think, whenwe met for the first time.
So well before we get into it,greg, how are you doing man?
(01:48):
Thanks for your generosity oftime.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well, no, I just love listening to you talk.
So I'm good Praying and talkingand blessing people.
I love it.
So you know it's great to bewith you and I'm honored to be
able to have a chat with you andhopefully something spills over
and is helpful to the peoplelistening Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, there's no doubt it will, because the Holy
Spirit's involved.
So how did you come up, tellthe story of Dwelling 114, how
you kind of came up with it, andthen we'll get into a little
bit of the mission of theministry Greg.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, well for sure.
Well, first of all, yeah, likea lot of things, I wasn't
looking for this to happen.
I can go way back and say I hadno plans on being a pastor and
God didn't care and, you know,forced me to become a pastor.
And then, you know, you followhis way and fruit happens.
And that was certainly the casefor us, and I never anticipated
not being a pastor of a localchurch.
(02:47):
But again, god really didn'task my permission, didn't give
me a heads up.
He just started messing with meand all of a sudden, at a
certain point back in 2011, Irealized he was asking us to
drop the nets, which, whenyou're the senior pastor of a
large church, it's kind of crazyto get that kind of a calling
(03:11):
to drop your nets and follow him.
But there was indeed, like yousaid, just a real awareness that
mission was not happening for alot of people, even though the
desire to be on mission did.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Greg, I have to interrupt you there.
You use a word and some peoplemay have had a pause.
Like God forces me to dosomething, like he forced you to
be a pastor.
Tell that story.
How did that—you were compelled, you couldn't do anything else
or was it literally like thisyeah, well, I mean one can use
whatever word you want, but itwas against my will.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
I had a real clear sense that I wanted to be a
Lutheran high school educator,to be a history teacher and a
coach.
That's what I wanted to do.
I came from a long line ofLutheran teachers.
I loved interacting in that wayand had every intention of
doing that.
Went off to Concordia, chicago,and about during my Christmas
(04:11):
break.
God just truly sat on me in aremarkable way until I, if you
will you know called uncle andsaid, ok, I will be a pastor.
And it was if this huge thumbcame off my chest and all of a
sudden, all the reasons I hadfor not being a pastor just
(04:32):
evaporated and I went back toConcordia, enrolled, changed my
major to a pre-sem stilleducation, but pre-sem and
started taking all the languages.
And then, you know, um, sevenyears later, seven years later,
got my first assignment inMichigan.
So, yeah, what I mean by thatis not that God was.
It's just like when we talkabout in joining Jesus on his
(04:55):
mission, the book Jesus messingwith us, it's never to be mean
or to pick on us.
It's to get us to notice thingsand respond to things that we
never would have before had henot poked us and got us to
wrestle with him a little bit,and that's certainly it.
(05:15):
I knew I didn't want to do it.
My grandpa had been a pastor.
I was like, nope, that is notfor me.
But God's like okay.
Well, it was kind of like Jacobto Israel.
I'm no Jacob, I'll never be inIsrael.
But Greg, you know, gotwrestled to the ground and I
finally said yes, sir, and offwe went and the same kind of
(05:37):
thing happened, starting 2114.
Didn't want to stop Thoughtthis is what I'm doing, god's
blessing it.
We had been in growing churchesin Michigan and then in uh and
then in Houston, and but Godjust uh, really made it clear we
were to drop the nets andfollow him.
And I never thought it would.
(05:57):
Uh, uh, you know, as I wrestledwith him, uh, he wasn't giving
me much details other than whatpart of drop the nets don't you
get.
So we did, we resigned thatcall and started Dwelly 114.
And now it's been a crazy rideever since.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, let's go deeper into that part of your story.
I've been wrestling a lotlately, greg, with the fear of
God.
You know we are.
Luther says we are to fear andlove God and there is this sense
of.
I mean, the primary nature ofGod is is love right, and we
know that's true because ofJesus and his love for us, shown
through a cross and empty tomb,and his, his reign, and the
(06:35):
indwelling comforter, the spirit.
So God's primary disposition isis love.
But yet if I reject his callupon my life based on how he's
wired me and the people he'splaced around me, that can
confirm that that call.
Like there is an appropriatesense of fear.
Like I fear sometimes you knowon respective podcasts or maybe
(06:58):
it's in relationship with folksin our church like sometimes
there's a harder word that needsto be spoken and I fear not
speaking that word.
I fear God in not speaking thatword more than I fear maybe the
result of a change in arelationship.
Any thoughts there regardingbecause really what we're
(07:20):
talking about is the fear of Godconnected to discerning the
will of God Not a very lighttopic, it's a very kind of
heavier topic to kick ourconversation off.
But you've discerned that willof God that led you to be a
pastor and then to startDwelling 114.
Would you get into a little bitmore of the nuts and bolts of
the how that works, because Ithink as Lutherans we're very
(07:43):
reticent to say God works beyondmeans, right, beyond his word,
beyond his sacrament, beyondpeople.
And if there's a word from theLord it better be confirmed in
scripture in some way, shape orform, or else we're all wet
right.
We're going down a path that'snot connected to the will of and
word of God.
So anything more to say aboutfear of God and discernment,
greg.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, well, you brought up a very simple subject
, so thank you for throwing meinto the deep end.
No, I would say this just from,you know, having walked with
the Lord now for many yearsright, fear is not afraid.
Now, if I'm standing steadfastagainst the Lord, oh yeah, it
(08:25):
can get very afraid.
But here's more what I wouldsay is that, um, you know, god
will get us going on the path hewants us to go.
It's just hard.
How hard are we going to makeit on ourselves before we do,
right, kind of like, uh, kind oflike, uh, jonah, uh, it wasn't.
If it was, it was how hard itwas going to make it on himself
and and and there are going tobe dramatic times, probably, at
(08:47):
least in my life, where you know, there was a dramatic having
kind of if you want to call it,a slap down wrestling match, a
little season of angst, but whathappens is, over time, you
start to learn that that's howGod deals with you and instead
of it, you know, instead of ittaking months, it takes
(09:08):
sometimes minutes, right,because it's you're no longer
going.
Oh yeah, no, I OK, ok, lord,and so being able to kind of
have this deep friendship withthe Lord so that there is the
fear is still.
You know, in the Hebrew wordthat's translated fear.
You know, it's not just afraid,it's more like a deep love and
(09:29):
respect.
Right, that completely humblesme, and the longer I walk with
the Lord, the longer I'm goingto be comfortable with going oh
no, we'll go ahead and let himbe God and I'll just be the
little child that responds to it.
Now, having to say the next part, which is about what's my role
(09:49):
in speaking into the lives ofother people, I think what
happens is that human beings,and especially pastors, who are
used to being in control, weoften overstep our bounds.
We want to force righteousness,we want to force the right
decision, we want to force apathway decision, we want to
force a pathway, and whathappens too often is that we
forget we're not God and thatthe only way that a person can
(10:12):
really respond in a way that istruly pleasing to God is if
they're responding to God andnot to my oversteppage of that
Right.
And so I think what, what youknow, paul says and this is
what's so hard for us it'stelling the truth and love,
which means I love you enough totell you the truth.
But I also love you enough toleave you to your own wrestling
(10:33):
with the Lord.
I can't save you from thatwrestling match.
I can't force you, I can't makeyou, but I can love you enough
to walk with you, even as youmight continue to wrestle with
it.
But here's what I can also doif I'm given the privilege of
walking with you is after you'vedone that.
Now I can help you learn fromthat experience, even as I've
(10:54):
had to learn from thatexperience and I've done that
with my own children that arenow grown children I've also
been able to do that with peoplethat I have long term
relationship friendships with,with people that I have
long-term relationshipfriendships with.
And it's really cool becauseit's through that experience of
wrestling and seeing oh, god'sway was the better way, right.
It's kind of like the Proverb 3, you know that we lean not on
(11:19):
our own understanding, for hewill make our paths straight.
And I look back and it does notlook like my path was straight
and it's only because it was myexpectations that I kept going
left and right and left andright.
And yet I look back and I go,oh, in the midst of all, that
there really was a straight paththat the Lord was leading me on
, but I couldn't necessarily seethat as a 19 year old right, I
(11:41):
had 19 years of goofballexperience rather than 60 plus
years of of, uh, of, of more ofan arc of experience that I
could look at.
So that's why I think Paul saysyou know, young people are wise
to listen to older peoplebecause of the wisdom, and that
wisdom is learned the hard way.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Hey, that's, that's so good.
Um, the Holy spirit.
I've been reflecting on theHoly Spirit an awful lot lately,
right?
I mean, it's often it's theFather and the Son, and then
it's the Holy Spirit, and often,as Jesus talks about, you're
going to receive somethingthat's different than John's
(12:26):
baptism, for you'll receive thepromise of the Holy Spirit.
It was just like this.
And then I went back to thebeginning of Luke and it was the
exact same promise and theexact same water, connected to
the Word that Jesus experienced,and then the Word of God.
This is my beloved Son, in whomI love.
That was the exact same promisethat Jesus was anticipating for
(12:47):
the early believers.
Go to Jerusalem, wait, and thenPeter gives, in Acts 2, the
greatest sermon you know,cutting to the heart what must
we do to be saved?
Be repent of your sins and bebaptized for the forgiveness of
your sins and you will receivethe gift of the Holy Spirit.
So then, when Luther starts totalk about remembering your
baptism, this is walking in stepwith the promises of God as a
(13:11):
child of God, connected to theword of God and connected then
to the way of Jesus, because wehave the Holy Spirit, we have
the representation.
We actually have themanifestation of Christ within
us, not just individually, butwithin us as the body of Christ.
So when a brother or sister I'mlanding the plane here when a
brother or sister speaks a wordto us connected to discernment,
(13:34):
connected to the I see in youconversation how they see God at
work in our lives or where theysee maybe us listening to the
accuser or living in shame orguilt, we are wise to listen to,
just like the early churchlistened to Peter and received
the promise of baptism.
We're wise to listen to ourelders who have had obviously
(13:55):
had an encounter with the Lordconnected to his word, have a
call upon their life and they'rejust like, hey, I'd love to
apprentice you.
I think one of the betterdefinitions of discipleship,
greg, is apprenticeship.
Right, I just want to, as Ifollow Jesus, come, follow me.
That appears to be the way thatJesus did it with his disciples
and obviously Paul did it withthe early church as well.
Any kind of connection todiscernment and the Holy Spirit,
(14:17):
as you hear me kind of givingthe arc of the way the Holy
Spirit presented himself in theNew Testament.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, no, I think when we repeat the words of
Jesus right, and especially inthe grace and truth, in other
words, grace that brings, truth,that sets free, doesn't try to
control, doesn't try tomanipulate, and that's what I
really think is a real danger inour current it's always been a
(14:48):
danger, but it's certainly acurrent in our present milieu of
the North American church isthat we try to use truth to
force people to think like us,believe like us, vote like us,
et cetera.
That is not grace and truth,that is your own, et cetera.
That is not grace and truth.
That is your own twisting ofthe law to force.
But if we start and I love theway you said it, because I think
(15:17):
we underestimate we always readthe gospels and we want to skip
ahead to the end of each of thegospels, to the death and
resurrection of Jesus, and weforget that the whole previous
part of that Jesus is disciplingus, apprenticing us in how to
live a life of love.
And when we start to go, oh,love in action is certainly an
activity, but it's also oftenwords.
(15:39):
And if we can start to lookpeople in the face and help them
with the good news of God, thegrace of God, the mercy of God,
just like Jesus did to the least, the lost and the last, the
Pharisees full of themselves.
Yeah, you're going to get atough word, but the rest of you?
I need you to hear the goodnews of God.
Right, that's what he wentaround, mark, chapter one,
(16:01):
that's what he went around youknow, galilee proclaiming the
good news of God, and we turnthe good news of God into I
don't know law instead of oh no,I got good news for you and and
just being that good newsperson and to, to, to mentor
people through that, again, Ican't, I can't, I can't get you.
(16:22):
I'm not going to be able to getyou out of the headlock.
God has you in.
There's reason for that purpose, for that, and it's good, right
.
But what I can do is remind youthat, oh no, he's, he's like a
big daddy wrestling with you onthe floor.
It may be uncomfortable, you maybe squirming, but it's for a
good outcome.
How do I know?
Well, let me tell you a storyof what had happened in my life.
(16:43):
Let me remind you of how Peterhad to squirm all that.
But we need someone that canspeak that to us in our life and
if you don't have somebody likethat, go ahead and start
praying about and then startthinking about who are the
people that are within yourreach?
Might be in your church.
(17:04):
Family probably is Certainly.
It might even be in yourneighborhood or workplace where
there's a more mature followerof Jesus that can be someone you
have a regular cup of coffeewith to do that, because we
forget that.
Well, we don't forget Salvation,we know, is an action between
(17:26):
God and us, which, with Goddoing all the action
Discipleship, apprenticeship,sanctification is something that
God does as well, but itrequires our participation, and
what we forget is that it alsorequires usually another human
being, a human being.
(17:46):
In other words, if we start andthis gets us to a little bit of
, I guess what our 2114 ministryis about is the mission part is
supported by the discipleshippart, and what we forget about
discipleship is that it happenedin the gospels, with Jesus
telling the disciples come,follow me, be with me, watch
what I'm doing, see my example.
(18:07):
Then I want you to follow myexample.
When we start chasing then,that same idea through not only
the gospels but the epistles,you start seeing it all over the
place with Paul, philippians3.17,.
You know, whatever you've seenin me, whatever you've you know,
follow my example and take noteof those that are living
(18:28):
according to my example and thepattern that I gave you.
Hebrews 13, 7,.
Take note of the outcome oftheir way of life and imitate
their faith.
Such a powerful and simpleverse.
I want you to know them wellenough that you can see the
outcome of how they live so thatyou can then start imitating
that.
Well, that's only going tohappen through relationship.
(18:50):
If I'm sitting in a pew andlistening to my pastor, I see
how he preaches, but that's not.
I don't see the outcome of away of life.
Likewise, in a small group, ifwe're simply talking about the
Bible class questions or thesmall group discussion questions
and we never get around to,here's what's going on in my
(19:11):
life and here's what's happening, I don't know how God's working
through your living a life oflove.
You know, humbling yourself,serving others, just like Jesus
showed us.
I don't see the outcome of thatand I don't know how to start
imitating that.
But man, with just one steptowards that kind of
relationship and intentionality,lives can be transformed.
(19:32):
And multiplication of that wayof life starts to happen in a
congregation.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Pretty cool Well you wouldn't be where you're at in
terms of leading this ministryas well as a pastor, unless
there were men and women overthe years, at the right point,
who did just that.
And human beings want a mirrorwe want to follow, we want to
have examples, an ideal, andobviously it's Christ.
(19:56):
It's a cruciform life ofsacrifice and service.
But I have to see it modeledand that's one of the, I guess,
compulsions you talk about theheaviness of God.
It's a lightness.
His yoke is easy, his burden islight for sure.
But I feel, since I was in afamily that was so healthy and a
dad, and that I got to see,model out what it looks like to
(20:19):
lead with humility and courageand I've got multiple my
father-in-law, my brother, likethere's just a lot of us who are
on this Jesus path and invitingothers to follow us as we
follow Jesus, I'm like compelledto speak.
Woe to me if I don't speak.
And where you were kind of maybeon the side, referring to the
(20:41):
desire in all of us Not in some,but in all of us toward power
and compulsion, and my way.
That's obviously not the Jesusway.
That's the flesh in us and inus individually and I would say
in us, potentially corporately.
But the way of Jesus isinvitational, it's not
compulsion.
Come and follow me and learnhow I do it.
(21:03):
I guess I could reject thatinvitation.
Why would I want to?
Because it's the greatestadventure of all time Come and
see how I'm at work out in theworld.
So let's get into mission here,greg, a bit.
What does participating inaccomplishing the mission look
like?
We've talked a fair amountabout discipleship and even Link
mobilized us in thediscipleship apprenticeship
(21:24):
conversation to join Jesus inhis mission out in the world to
get all of his kids back.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, no, and that's what we have made something that
is simple and already summed upwonderfully in the scriptures.
We've complicated it and madeit very vague again.
Jesus made it clear this is howpeople will know that you have
been discipled by me, how youlove, right Paul in Ephesians 5,
(21:51):
verse 2, live a life of love.
Well, what does the life oflove look like?
He answers it Following theexample of Christ, who loved us
and gave himself for us.
Jesus in John 13, 34, as I haveloved you, I want you now to
love one another.
There's a self-sacrificial love.
(22:12):
That is the core, the center,it's everything right.
And then you know, in 1 Johnjust read 1 John, 4, verses 7
and following, and it's like anamazing laying out by John,
through the Holy Spirit, of whatlove is.
You know, love first of allcomes from God.
(22:32):
And then he says this is love,not that we love God, but that
God loved us and gave his son asan atoning sacrifice for our
sin.
Now that we have been so andI'll throw in the word
sacrificially loved, becausethat's what he's talking about
Now that we have been so loved,let us now love one another.
And then he goes on to saythat's how this love is made
(22:53):
complete.
And, of course, we love alittle later.
We love why?
Because he first loved us.
That's not just our motivation,that's where the love comes
from People I know I talk about.
You know Jesus, summing up thelaw and the prophets love the
Lord, your God, and love yourneighbor as yourself.
(23:14):
You say, well, how can I lovemy neighbor as myself?
I don't even love myself.
And I say I got good news foryou because God loves you, right
?
I love because God first lovedme.
I don't have love for myneighbor loves you, right?
I love because God first lovedme.
I don't have love for myneighbor, but I take a deep
(23:35):
drink of the love that I needand then I offer a cool cup of
water of that love to him.
And so our life, then, is livinga life of love, which you know
again, according to scripture,first I received that love
freely, fully.
I trust it, I'm convinced of it, and then, now that I have this
love, I go out looking forpeople that need a little bit of
what I already have inabundance.
And that's my life.
(23:55):
My vocation is, you know, theseason and place that I'm living
life.
And if you think about all theChristians all over the world,
if they woke up every morningremembered that they are loved
and forgiven and redeemed by Godand through Christ.
And now I'm going to go outlooking for people that need a
little bit of taste of that, andI get to be the little kid
(24:16):
going around looking for peopleand I'm going to work and I'm
running the kids and I'm youknow, I'm mowing the lawn, I'm
doing the stuff I've been doing,but now I'm doing it as a
follower of Jesus, and afollower of Jesus looks for
people that needs love andoffers it to them.
And if we do that consistentlyand intentionally with those
(24:36):
that are around us on a regularbasis, we'll even get to see the
growth and the fruit thatstarts to come of that.
You know, love people a longlife's way.
You know, do that that you'llnever see again.
Absolutely Throw the seed onthem.
But the ones that and this iswhat we really emphasize is you
know, get to know, start to hangout with and intentionally love
(24:58):
the people God's placed aroundyou.
And we always have to tellespecially it's just North
American Christians in general,but Lutherans tend to have a
little trouble Love them in sucha way that they know they have
been loved, because most of thetime we love them but never do
anything with it.
And it's love in action that itwasn't that God loved us and
(25:21):
saved us.
It's that God loved us and didsomething about it.
Right.
Love in action, for God soloved the world that he gave,
and so that's where to be ableto go.
What does it look like for ourpeople to participate in
accomplishing the mission of God?
Well, the mission of God is toget his kids back, all of them,
(25:41):
to redeem and restore all things.
That's a God thing.
Only God can save the world,but he invites us to participate
, to join him.
And again that Ephesians 5.2starts right before 5.2 is 5.1,
right, and it's a crazy.
I mean, if you read it, it'scrazy.
Be imitators of God.
(26:01):
Well, for heaven's sakes, howcan I be an imitator of God?
Not by doing all things andknowing all things.
It's by being willing to lovelike God loves.
And how do?
I do that Well, I love the waythat he first loved me.
Now that I know that, now I canlive a life of love, imitating
Jesus, who I can see, who lovedme and gave himself for me, and
(26:27):
if we can realize wow, that'sthe ballgame, guys.
Everything else is details thatstill lead back to the heart of
that, which is God loves you.
Now you go, love.
God forgives you in Christ.
Now you go, look for peoplethat need forgiveness.
You know that's what Jesus sumsup in Luke 24 when he's sending
him out.
He's like you know, I'm thefulfillment.
(26:48):
Remember, I told you I had tofulfill everything the law, the
prophets, the writing said.
And then he said now open yourmind to the scriptures.
And now we're waiting for adeep something.
Right, man, this is going to bedeep and we've never heard this
before.
And he said well, here's whatit all means the son of man must
suffer, rise on the third dayand forgiveness of sins will be
preached in his name to allnations.
(27:08):
Any questions?
I mean, that's what Habakkuk 3was talking about.
Yeah, I'm not quite.
I don't know all the dots tothe connections, but yeah,
that's what Habakkuk 3 was.
How about Ezekiel 31?
Yeah, somehow that connectsback to me knowing I've been
forgiven.
And now I get to go out and bea little fellow that goes out
and make sure people know thatthey are loved and forgiven.
And now I get to go out and bea little fellow that goes out
(27:28):
and make sure people know thatthey are loved and forgiven.
And if we can keep it that clearand simple, which the Bible
obviously does, you know, goingback Galatians, the only thing
that matters is faith,expressing itself through love.
Any questions?
So if we can remember, allthese things lead back to
receiving love and then beingthe distribution system of love.
(27:50):
Now mission, you're going tosee it happening in front of you
, consistently and frequently,over and over again.
Because the one thing we forgetwe study it, we understand it,
we believe it we forget to goout and do it.
We study it, we understand it,we believe it we forget to go
out and do it.
And when we go out and lovepeople guess what People that
(28:10):
need love?
They come to life.
They come to life.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Greg.
Okay, so many things.
One, if you go back and listento the last five minutes or so,
greg is dropping scripture likea beast man and if I'm going to
summarize, what you're saying iswe have been loved by God to
love him in return.
(28:35):
I'm doing two kinds ofrighteousness, here and now.
God doesn't need our love.
He couldn't be any more proudof us than he is right now.
Through faith in his son, hesmiles over us.
We smile back and we carry thatsmile, the love, the care, the
kindness of Jesus into the worldto love our neighbors as a
living manifestation of whoJesus is, who God is.
(28:57):
God is love.
I'm turned on to a book calledBecoming the Gospel by Michael
Gorman.
Have you heard of this book?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Greg no, but that sounds like he's stealing it
from Jesus.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah, that is good.
That's good, you don't need tocreate anything.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
There's no original content here and what he does is
he looks at the Apostle Paul.
So he says all of Paul'swritings have a missional focus,
a missional lens, a missionalaim.
Yes, couldn't agree more.
And then he goes deep into howPaul uses these three verbs.
And you see in 1 Thessalonians,and you see it in a number of
(29:34):
his other letters, and it's atthe very, very beginning.
This is 1 Thessalonians 1,which we think is one of, if not
his first letter, his tightestletter to the church there in
Thessalonica.
We give thanks to God always forall of you, constantly
remembering you in our prayers,remembering before our God and
Father your and here comes thethree verbs your work of faith.
(29:56):
So, from faith and for faithGod has claimed you.
You trust in his promises, youtrust in his word, your work of
faith.
And then I love this your laborof love.
So as you've received faith,there's this work.
You're being known in thecommunity.
I'm being known in thecommunity because you're working
out love and then yoursteadfastness of hope in our
(30:20):
Lord Jesus Christ.
So we look at I think it's 1Corinthians right Faith, hope
and love.
But actually the pattern inmost of Paul's letters is faith,
love and then hope.
And so he has this really coolphrase that he's actually coming
on this podcast in a month orso.
He has this really cool phrasecalled participatory
anticipation.
(30:41):
It's a mouthful Participatoryanticipation.
So, as God is at work for me,shown through the cross and the
empty tomb, but the risen onenow reigns over all things, we
should talk more about theascension, I believe, the reign
of God over all things, and thenhow he's working in the world
by the power of his spirit,making us the temple of his Holy
Spirit and then us as thechurch, the body of Christ.
(31:04):
This is the way the world bedrawn to Jesus and I get to
participate.
I'm not Jesus, but I'm likeJesus.
You know he chooses to workthrough me.
I have fallen feeble, broken,frail, frail, little me, that
little guy.
I love how you were referringthat little guy.
Look at him, go.
I think that's the way God islike.
Look at that little guy doing,doing my thing, you know,
carrying my spirit, carrying myword out into the world.
(31:25):
But if you ever noticed that,that kind of move of Paul from
faith to the labor of love tothen the hope obviously when he
talks hope he's talking aboutthe power of the resurrection,
that coming day when love willbe all that we know.
The love of God will be infusedthrough us, for us and to all
of the cosmos on that great andglorious last day when he
returns to make all things new.
(31:46):
Have you wrestled with thatkind of move of the Apostle Paul
ever, greg?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Well, not specifically with the letter to
Thessalonians and thatexegetical thing, but the good
news is that's exactly what Isee over and over again, with
people that do what we give,that do what Jesus gave them to
do.
This is not a worksrighteousness, this is not a
have to.
This is not an earn something,gain something, prove something.
(32:13):
Earn something, gain something,prove something.
This is what happens.
When I start to believe that Iam loved by God abundantly in
Christ because of Jesus, andthen start living that out for
the good of others, you start tosee that is it work?
Well, sure, it's work, butyou're working anyway.
Why not do something that'sgonna bear fruit?
And then you actually see thefruit and it gives you all the
more hope that this is realright.
(32:35):
And that gives you all the morehope that this is real right
and that gives you all the moreconfidence that the other
promises God has made in Christoh yeah, we'll see those too,
because we're seeing these beingkept.
But I think this is what mywork with individuals and
congregations.
This is where the rubber hitsthe road.
We understand it, we believe it, but we don't participate in it
(32:57):
.
So we have 80 year olds thathave been going to church all
their life, who still haven'tbeen able to participate in the
fun stuff.
Right, because all we've doneis we've discussed it, we've
heard it, we've believed it,we've sung about it, we've
prayed about it, but we haven'tgone out and done something with
it.
And that's where you knowdwelling 114 comes from John 114
(33:24):
.
The word became flesh and madehis dwelling among us.
And one of the things that weremind people is you know,
you're not Jesus, no one's goingto mistake you from Jesus.
But now, in Christ, throughbaptism, you got Jesus in you.
And when you even have a littlelove, joy, peace, patience,
goodness, kindness, get outthrough you it's from God, but
it gets out through you thenyou're going to look a lot more
like Jesus and those people aregoing to be benefited a whole
(33:46):
lot more than if you justignored them.
And so we then, through deathand resurrection of Jesus, we're
redeemed or restored, baptismthrough, or the Holy Spirit in
us, through baptism.
Now what I tell people is we arenow the word made flesh, not
because we're Jesus, but becausewe got Jesus in us.
(34:06):
And what people around us needis the word becoming active,
tangible, experiential.
There were 39 books of theBible in play when Jesus arrived
, and yet he was the word madeflesh.
We didn't need more words.
God sent Jesus because weneeded an example of what does
(34:27):
it look like for a human beingto live out these words?
And we sometimes get distractedbecause Jesus, of course, was
the son of God.
So nobody can be a savior butJesus.
Distracted because Jesus, ofcourse, was the son of God, so
nobody can be a savior but Jesus.
You know, nobody's gonna beraising people from the dead or
watering the wine, but what wedo have from Jesus is also being
true man.
And so when he was baptized,like you referred to earlier,
(34:47):
that's exactly what's going onin our baptism, when we're going
off and now seeking to live alife of love, humbly, under the
father's leadership, and thenconfidently offering a little
bit of what we've got.
The results, the fruit, is God'salone right.
That's why Jesus, when he wentto Galilee or went to Nazareth,
(35:07):
there wasn't much right.
And then yet he goes to anotherplace and shazam.
You know, demons are fleeingand dead people are rising.
What God does through it is hisaction alone, but that we
participate in that humblelifestyle.
Word made flesh.
We're God's word being active,and so we forget that when we
(35:29):
receive the Holy Spirit inbaptism, we now have, as Paul
says in Philippians two, we nowhave within us the, the will,
and that we are able to will andact according to his purpose.
Why?
Because God's in us.
Now what I need, though, issomeone to disciple me, to show
how to access that and let thatout Right.
(35:49):
I need somebody to show me whatthat I've got.
It's like a little baby that isborn with all the parts, but
now I need my daddy, my mommy,to help me learn how to pull all
that, pull all that togetherand walk or run or play the
piano or play baseball.
You know, I got all the parts,but I need and I got.
I got the ability and the power, but I need somebody to help me
(36:11):
pull it all together.
That's the same thing in Christ.
You have everything you need.
You're already fully equipped.
You just don't know what to dowith the equipment.
Right?
You got love, you got joy.
You got peace, you got.
You got truth.
Uh, now here's how we use it tobenefit others, to serve others
, and that's what Jesus did.
Word made flesh.
Now we got the word in us.
We're the flesh body of Christ.
(36:32):
People usually are a littlemore comfortable with that.
We're the body of Christ and weare out there looking for
people who need a little bit ofwhat we got.
Amen.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Hey, I think the false dichotomy here is that
this is kind of anti-liturgy forthose of us that are Lutheran
or anti-Sunday or something likethat, and I don't.
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
I mean, every single Sunday,when I get to gather and there's
hundreds of people that I getthe privilege of proclaiming the
(37:02):
gospel, the forgiveness of sins, to, in my mind I'm seeing
churches of various sizes I'mnot even going to throw out but
hundreds of missionaries who areout in my congregation, who are
here to be mobilized, remindedwho they are in their baptism.
This is the liturgy right Toknow they're a sinner.
They desperately need to hearthe word of God.
They need to hear theforgiveness of sins for you for
(37:25):
sure and then they need to beshaped by the word of God
through the proclamation, thehearing of the word of God.
And then we need to live a lifeof prayer and obviously Jesus
gives us his prayer.
We need to be a confessingpeople.
That's what the creeds are allabout.
We need to be reminded, tasteand see the goodness of Jesus as
we receive his body and blood.
And then Numbers, chapter 6, weneed to be sent out with the
(37:47):
presence of the triune.
God in and for us, through theblessing, the benediction.
The Lord bless you and keep you.
This is a presence of God forthe people of God in the Old
Testament we're living out thestory of God for us.
So the best part of the liturgyis actually modeling, mirroring
my identity all the way to mysending the best parts of what a
(38:07):
Lutheran liturgy is.
So if we say it's simply aboutSunday, just get people to
Sunday.
Yeah, we got to get people toSunday.
Just get people to Sunday.
Yeah, we got to get people toSunday.
Why?
So that we can train them andsend them out into the mission
field.
Anything more to say about theconnection between Sunday and
Monday through Saturday?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yeah, well, again, my job is to make it clear, simple
, clear, simple.
So people go oh, now I get it,now I can participate in it, and
what I always say about that ishey, friends, that's what
Sunday's for.
Joining Jesus on his mission onMonday is what Sunday's for,
it's what word and sacrament isfor we do that.
(38:42):
And then what?
Sit on the bench and run outthe clock till next Sunday, or
sit on the bench and run out theclock till we die and go to
heaven someday.
No, I'm given all that abundancewithin the context of what we
do on Sunday, and that's whatit's for to go out and now I am
filled up with good news andforgiveness, I'm reminded of who
I am, and now I go out lookingfor people that need some more,
(39:06):
a little bit of that, and thenwe go do it again next Sunday,
and that's what it's for.
So we love to have anillustration that shows what
happens when people who are thechurch not just go to church,
but are the church, go out andlove their neighbors, and then
those people go back to church.
That is the gathering as acongregation word and sacrament,
(39:28):
to celebrate it, receive it, bereminded of it, be refueled by
it, and then we head back outand then we just see the love
start to spread throughout thatcommunity, but only because we
go home and get started.
Not go home and wait till nextSunday.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
It seems simple enough.
Um, the, the apostle Paul.
He's such a hero of the faith.
We've been kind of talking afair amount about him in this
podcast.
He was trained like there werea number of years, I think some
say like Paul was before hestarted doing his kind of
missionary leadership,development, multiplying
(40:07):
missions, starting churches, allof that kind of thing.
He was under the apprenticeshipof other disciples, as because
it wasn't like, I think a lot oftimes you look at the apostle
Paul, he has this crazyencounter with the crucified and
risen Jesus and then heimmediately boom like everything
changes.
No, there was characterdevelopment that took place.
(40:27):
He.
He even needed, because he's ahuman being, to connect the dots
between the prophets, law andthe prophets all the way to who
Jesus was, so that he could havethe hope and the reason, the
rationale to bring both the Jewand Gentile into the kingdom of
God, to connect Jesus as thecenter person in all of human
history.
So let's talk about and you cango off on Paul if you like, but
(40:48):
I really think it is the roleof training for the leader.
I'm seeing evangelism training,discipleship training, training
around having Jesus-centeredconversations.
That's kind of the pool thatyou've been swimming in for some
time, so talk about the role oftraining in inviting the
everyday follower of Jesus outinto his mission field.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Yeah.
So I think the main thing torealize is that in most cases,
we don't need to know more.
We need to do more with what wealready know, and that's really
what training is In many ways.
I tell people hey, after ourworkshop, I'm probably not going
to tell you anything youhaven't already known and
believed and even taughtyourselves.
But the one thing we are goingto do is introduce this crazy
(41:30):
little idea is how do we now godo it?
And so, transitioning thatthat's as good as we can get
with training in a room.
After that it's all about hey,come with me, right, hey, come
with me.
And so when they werediscipling Paul, if you will,
training him, apprenticing himthey weren't teaching him more
(41:53):
about the 39 books of the Bible.
He was a Pharisee of Pharisees.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, fair enough.
Yeah, he knew, he knew hisstuff.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
What they were doing is showing how, no, all this
ends up being aboutself-sacrificial love right, not
power, not know-how.
And the other part I think thatPaul had to learn.
I think he was a very forcefulpersonality.
I mean he was leading gangs ofpeople around rounding up
Christians, right, and so how tohow to humble that and use it
(42:23):
as a servant.
And you don't learn thatthrough academics.
You learn that through beingwith people that are humbly
using power to serve others.
And, and Paul saw that.
Paul was given that, I believe,by Jesus, absolutely.
But then, yeah, I need to seewhat it looks like being lived
out.
So Jesus with his own disciplesright, he proclaims the good
(42:46):
news of God, the time has come,the kingdom of God has arrived,
repent, believe the good news.
And then the very next thing hesays is I know you don't know
what you're doing, so comefollow me.
Now he doesn't say I know youdon't know what you're doing,
but the very next thing he saysis come follow me.
And that's because they had noidea what that meant.
They were like yeah, now whatdoes that mean?
(43:07):
Right, I love it that God'skingdom has come, but now he's
like come, follow me.
Let me show you what it lookslike to live in the reality of
the kingdom that's coming andthe will of the father being
done.
And so they went out and theysaw it.
They saw it, they saw the, thepower of the gospel.
They saw oppositions to thegospel too, but that that gave
them confidence, that were.
(43:28):
You know, you shake the dustoff there and you go there
because there's always going tobe somebody ready for what we
have to offer there, becausethere's always going to be
somebody ready for what we haveto offer.
That is the good news of God.
And so that's where, when we'retalking about training, the way
we set it up is we have atraining workshop so people have
clarity and simplicity aboutwhat the mission is and how they
(43:50):
get to participate in it.
And then they have a personalplan that they can then go home
and start joining Jesus.
And the congregation has acongregational plan for how
we're going to support that,celebrate that and spur each
other on for that.
And then now they got the firstpart, but they are untrained yet
(44:12):
, right, because now they haveto go out and start to gain
experience.
And that means go out, give ita run, come back, let's talk
about what happened.
Go out, give it a run, comeback and let's talk about what's
happened and, if that plan issimple enough, love your
neighbor as yourself, seek thekingdom, what God already been
(44:33):
preparing ahead of time for youto see and do and then we have
the rhythm of coming backtogether and talking about it.
So, what did you see?
Who did you love?
What did you learn?
What's your next step as thatbecomes the new rhythm?
Now I take the preaching andteaching I receive, go put it
into practice.
(44:53):
Come back to that small groupof people or that mentoring
relationship with somebody andtalk about what happened.
What did I learn?
What's next?
That becomes the rhythm, then,and you see accelerated growth.
Why?
Because now they're not justthinking about it and writing
down notes about it, but nowthey have stories and
(45:15):
experiences, both good andboo-boos, that they now are
learning from.
And now they are being trained.
They're gaining experience,skill and confidence in
following the ways of Jesus forthe good of others.
And that's the main thing we'remissing in the US church.
We come, we hear it, weunderstand it by the power of
(45:38):
the Holy Spirit, we believe it,and then we forget that.
Oh well, he gave that to us sothat we would go out and
participate in it for the goodof others.
But when we have, you know,80-year-olds, 8-year-olds,
everybody in between, going, oh,that's right, I am loved,
forgiven, and the Fatherdelights over me, well, I'm
(45:59):
going to go out and share thatwith others, because they don't
know, they don't know that Godloves them and delights in them.
They think that God has no, youknow, overlooks them or, worse,
is kind of like Luther love God, I hate God, right, because
he's always looking to havethrow me into hell.
And it's like oh, I got goodnews for you and that becomes a
(46:23):
simple reality that we becomevery good at.
Why?
Because this is who we are,this is what we do.
If I throw in all kinds of extrastuff, then I confuse people, I
bog people down, I don'tunderstand, it's not simple,
it's not doable.
(46:43):
But if it's simple and doableand I can do it over and over
again, then that identity inChrist, that simple purpose in
Christ, this is who I am, thisis what I do.
And then collectively as acongregation this is who we are,
this is what I do.
And then collectively as acongregation this is who we are,
this is what we do.
And when I walk in and I'm partof your gathering, whether it's
for worship or whether it's aclass or it's a gathering of
(47:05):
youth.
Wherever I walk in, I'm seeingthat, oh man, these are a bunch
of people that know they'reloved by God and have stories
about loving people out in thecommunity.
And that's who we are, that'swhat we do, and either I'm going
to want to be a part of this orI'm like oh, this is freaking
me out.
No, thank you, but at leastit's not just a bunch of people
(47:25):
standing around with coffeetalking about the weather, greg.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
I love it so much because Jesus loves me and I
love him and his word.
I mean listener, this is theway of Jesus Like, at its base
form.
This is what Jesus did.
He called disciples, hementored them, they got to watch
and then they got toparticipate.
(47:52):
Luke, chapter 9, the 12, lukechapter 10, the 70, 72 sent out
and they come back.
It's boomerang theology.
They come back, they debrief,they need to be reshaped,
recalibrated.
Do they have pride and ego?
That is going to get in the way, because they think they're a
big deal, because they have allthis authority, power, blah,
blah, blah.
Yeah, they need the humility,the love of Christ over and over
(48:14):
again.
But they need the humility, thelove of Christ over and over
again.
But we have made it way toocomplex.
We have intellectualized whatit looks like to follow Jesus,
and there's nothing againstcontent, there's nothing against
going deep in a certaintheological tradition or
systematic history.
There's always more to learn.
But if, at the end of the day,we think that we're closer to
(48:34):
God based on the word, I guess,the theology, the strength, I
guess, of our respectivediscipline, all the way up to a
professor and a pastor, and weforget the simplicity of
inviting others to come andfollow us as we follow Jesus and
then giving them the ability toparticipate and lovingly
checking in with them.
(48:54):
If we've, if we're not doingthat in our churches, what?
What are we?
What are we?
What are we doing?
I don't know that that's thechurch right, cause the church
is on mission to get all of his,all of his kids back.
And I, you know, you and Ihappen to be in a church body
where we have some opportunitiesfor growth and I'll just, I'll
just make a very, very straightstatement.
(49:19):
If pastors don't learn thatthey're there, yes, to bring
word, yes, to administer thesacrament, but yes, to mobilize
other people and to release themand find other men who can
teach 2 Timothy 2.2 and bringthem alongside in partnership
with word and sacrament ministry, if there are pastors that
(49:40):
think you're simply a doerrather than a developer, I don't
know.
I think you're missing thesimplicity of the way Jesus did
it and the way the early churchdid it.
So, greg, final question herehow does leadership development
and that can be a big, scaryterm, but just raising up
followers of Jesus, maybeapprenticeships under Christ,
(50:00):
how does that sort ofdevelopment work, all the way up
to pastoral formation intersectwith your missional strategy.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Well, it's the thing that says whether this is going
to be a short-lived small groupflash in the pan or whether we
are going to be unleashing aongoing discipleship movement
that people go and live a lifeof love to the ends of the earth
.
Uh, you know, in the, in thepower of Jesus.
Uh, because if, if, if, uh, uh,all we have, for instance, with
with Jesus and the 12, if allhe has was the 12, you know then
(50:37):
that movement dies out with theend of the 12th.
But they, he taught them, hediscipled them in such a way
that they knew the next step wasto disciple others.
It's not we, it's not just Idisciple you, but I disciple you
in such a way that you knowimmediately, not eventually,
immediately you're replicatingthis with somebody else.
(50:58):
You know your family, aneighbor, a coworker, so that
it's a multiplication thing.
Now one thing, just real quick,because we've been talking about
it.
We need to understand that ourunderstanding of teaching is not
the New Testament understandingof teaching.
We think it's conceptual.
Do you get it?
Do you understand it, do youbelieve it?
(51:18):
But that's not teaching in theNew Testament.
Teaching in the New Testamentis rabbinic, which means it is
culminated with a lifestyle thatimitates the rabbi.
And so when Paul is talkingabout teaching teaching what I
taught you we got to add thatwith the other places where he's
like, take note of my example,imitate me as I imitate Christ.
(51:39):
There's a lifestyle that isdescribed and revealed by, and
empowered by, the word, but youcan't that those words don't
substitute for the lifestyle,right?
That's why it's word made flesh.
And so if I'm teaching from mypulpit, I gotta remember, I
(52:00):
gotta.
We're really good.
There's three little phrasesknow what, so what?
Now what?
What do they need to know?
Why do they need to know it?
We're good at that.
What does this mean for us,right, as Lutherans?
So, know what, so what?
But we're not done preachinguntil we start helping them
understand the now, what, nowthat I know this, believe this.
(52:24):
What is he giving me to believeand do?
And likewise with seminaryprofessors, sunday school
teachers and everybody inbetween, we want to finish up
the teaching by helping peoplerealize what kind of a lifestyle
does this teaching reflect andthen send them out.
So, in a family, we're learninghow to model this lifestyle and
(52:44):
what kind of a life?
Well, it's going to be a live,a life of love.
It's going to look like love,love and action.
So don't get overly complicated.
There's lots of ways that it'scommunicated in the Bible, but
it ends up being the same thing.
Who says so Jesus?
Who says so Paul?
Who says so John?
Okay, so we got goodverification of this, and so now
(53:04):
, in a family, we can model theliving it out.
What did we hear?
What is the Bible give us tobelieve and do?
Let's go out, believe it and doit.
And now we have children, wehave adults, we have everybody
in between getting better atthis, because that's what Jesus
said Come, follow me, I'll makeyou into fishers of men.
(53:26):
You're not very good at itright now, but I will help you
become better at it by my power.
But I'm going to teach you howto get better at it by having
you tag along for three yearsand imitate and replicate that
with others.
That's how, like you said, weget from Luke 8-1, they were
with Jesus Luke 9-1, jesus sentthem to Luke 10-1, where now we
(53:49):
got 72 that he's sending.
You know, that wasn't just theangel sprinkling disciple dust
everywhere.
It was an intentionalreplication so that more and
more people caught on and got todo it and then, when you get to
Luke 24, matthew 28, now go tothe nations.
But we're not going to have 12people discipling millions of
(54:14):
people.
No, you disciple people.
That then can disciple people,that disciple people until the
nations are discipled to livethis life of love and bring the
redemption and good news ofJesus to everybody that needs it
so badly.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
That sounds like Jesus apprenticeship,
multiplication at work.
And the days are too short forus, in whatever denomination
you're a part of, to bickerargue over various points.
Like we agree we've beenjustified by grace, through
faith, and we agree that theHoly Spirit, in our baptism, has
(54:53):
filled us individually andcollectively to bring the love
and light of Christ out into adark and dying world To mirror
what we've received from theperson and light of Christ out
into a dark and dying world tomirror what we've received from
the person and work of Jesus.
So this is I love listening toyou, I love your passion, greg,
I love your ministry.
Heart Dwelling114,.
If people want to get connected, how can they do so, greg?
Speaker 1 (55:12):
Dwelling114.org is the easiest way Contact page
information.
But let me help.
Clarity and simplicity leads topeople going, oh, I can get off
the bench and get in the gametoo, and that's what we need.
We need our folks.
Give them clarity, simplicityand a plan so they get to get
off the bench and get in thegame and have their own stories,
(55:35):
whether it's after eight yearsor 80 years.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yeah, amen, amen.
This is the Tim Allman podcast.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you're takingthis in, that really really
helps.
Uh, and hopefully this.
There was a little bit of.
Well, there was law and gospelin this conversation.
If you're, if you happen to be,in a congregation where it's
just a sit and get, rather getand go, and you're a pastor,
maybe we ask for some help.
(55:59):
And if you're an everydayfollower of Jesus sitting in
pews, encourage your pastor.
I love that.
From the now what to the sowhat?
Or from the know what to the,so what to the now what, Now,
what?
Pastor, Give us that next stepinvitation to follow Jesus out
into the world, Because he'sobviously there, he's at work
and he wants us to join him inhis mission.
Your books, if anybody, I'mgiving you a first one right
(56:21):
Joining Jesus on his mission.
And what else have you written,Greg?
Speaker 1 (56:25):
Well, just the kind of the natural next step.
So joining Jesus on his mission, and then joining Jesus show me
how, which is discipleship, andthen joining Jesus as a family,
which pulls it all together sothat parents, in a wonderful,
simple way, can do that withtheir kids or grandkids.
Uh, absolutely Just.
If you start Googling joiningJesus, that's usually what comes
(56:48):
up.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
So good.
This is a Tim Allman podcast isa good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Grateful for you, greg.
We'll see you, I think a bestpractice here very, very soon.
Thanks for your generosity oftime, though, buddy, amen.
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