July 11, 2023 • 34 mins
In today's news, we're seeing a wave of job cuts spanning various industries, affecting nearly 200,000 U.S. employees so far in 2023 according to Forbes' layoff tracker. Chances are, you know someone who has been impacted by this trend. In such challenging times, one of the best gifts you can give them is encouragement.
Back in November 2022, I had the opportunity to read the book "What To Do Next" by Jeff Henderson. and I was fortunate enough to interview Jeff about his book and gain some of his insights on how to navigate challenging times. Given the relevance of his message to today's economic climate, I've decided to re-share that episode with you. Life is full of storms, and at any given moment, we may find ourselves in the midst of one, on the cusp of encountering one, or emerging from the aftermath of another. That's why I believe that this conversation will not only provide practical advice and encouragement, but also equip you with the tools to navigate the challenges of our current reality.
We delve into the profound role of preparedness when facing career transitions, drawing parallels from the founders of Home Depot, Bernie Marcus and Arthur Blank. Unwrapping the emotional aspect of retirement, the responsibility of a decent farewell, and the importance of celebrating the new guard, Jeff's insights aim to fuel your quest for personal growth and professional advancement. He also highlights the significance of side hustles and experimental ventures.
As we steer towards the end of our discussion, we shed light on the journey towards identifying one's purpose. How can experiences and side hustles assist in determining the next step? Jeff takes us through his personal experiences of leaving Gwinnett Church, a place he helped found, and the process of honoring the new leadership. We conclude discussing the power of humility in leadership and the necessity of continuous learning and growth in the face of change. Tune in and arm yourself with wisdom and insights to navigate your present, regardless of its challenges.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast, and I'm your host, john
Gallagher.
In today's news, we're seeing awave of job cuts spanning
various industries, affectingnearly 200,000 US employees so
far in 2023, according toForbes' layoff tracker.
Chances are you know someonewho's been impacted by this
trend.
In such challenging times, oneof the best gifts that you can
(00:23):
give them is encouragement.
Back in November 2022, i had theopportunity to read the book
What to Do Next by JeffHenderson, and I was fortunate
enough to interview Jeff abouthis book and gain some of his
insights on how to navigatechallenging times and be
prepared to do what's next.
Now, given the relevance of hismessage to today's economic
climate, i've decided to resharethat episode with you.
(00:45):
Life is full of storms and atany given moment, we may find
ourselves in the midst of one,in the cusp of encountering one
or emerging from the aftermathof another.
That's why I believe thisconversation will not only
provide practical advice andencouragement, but also equip
you with the tools to navigatethe challenges of your current
reality.
Let's get started.
(01:10):
Good afternoon, jeff Henderson.
Welcome to the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
I'm so honored to have you as aguest on the show and I know
that the listeners of thepodcast are really going to
enjoy this.
I'd ask you right off the batthe first question that I always
ask all the guests on thepodcast.
while we'll get a chance totalk about your book, i want to
get the guest to learn a littlebit more about you and your
story.
So I always ask everybody totalk about a story from their
(01:33):
childhood or their early youththat still defines kind of who
they are today.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
It's interesting you mentioned that, john, because
last night I celebrated my 26thwedding anniversary.
Wendy and I did, and so when Iwas 10 years old I've told her
this about a million times Infact I wrote her an anniversary
card and mentioned this storyagain.
When I was 10 years old, i waswalking home from my friend's
house in North Georgia,beautiful summer night.
I just was praying and Lord at10, i was like here's the life I
want to marry someday.
(01:59):
And then I got married at 31.
So 21 years later it took 21years, but Wendy's eight years
younger than me, so it took her.
She had to grow up before Imarried her, or if I would have
got arrested.
But that story is like, hey,just be patient, have a vision
for your life.
Obviously I needed to be theman that she deserved, and then
(02:20):
we celebrated 26 years yesterday.
So in fact I you know theanniversary card wrote that
story when I was 10 years old.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Wow, jeff.
I so appreciate you sharingthat.
That is really cool.
I mean 26 years congratulationsfirst to both of you And that
is quite an accomplishment.
And I think I'm at 28 years,chris and I are at 28,.
at least I better say thatright, or I'm going to get in
big trouble.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, 28 years, 28 years this year, good, good,
good.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah, you get past 20 to 26 and you start forgetting
how many years that is, becausethat also impacts your age as
well.
But again, thanks for sharingthat story And I want to really
jump in.
I mean, i could share storiesas to how I get connected with
you and we'll hear about it interms of giving your cell phone
number out and how graciousyou've been to be a guest.
But we're really here today totalk about you know, your book,
(03:08):
what to do next, and you can seeI've got a lot of pages marked
in there and things like that.
I could ask a hundred questionsas to go forward, but I really
loved doing that in book And Ithink as I read it it was
started off.
I had a friend who gifted thebook What Do You For To Me And
then, after reading that one,you and I connected.
I saw the What Do You Do Nextcame out of someone read that as
well, just to see what's in itand absorbing the story that you
(03:29):
had.
When I read it.
I swear you wrote it to me muchlike that story 10 years ago
And I needed to read it 10 yearsago And I waited too many years
to, in essence, really takesome of the advice that you had
in that book, but I think youwrote it just for me.
But I know you didn't write itjust for me, so tell me a little
bit about how you got to write,why you wrote, what Do You Do
(03:51):
Next and who you wrote it for.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So I made a move, like you have made, john, and I
think everybody's made, but Imade mine two years ago and in
my mid fifties and organizationthat I helped start as a pastor.
I helped start two churches inmy hometown and I made a change
in the middle of a globalpandemic.
So everything was kind ofscreaming like don't do this,
stay, stay.
(04:16):
But we felt, for a lot ofdifferent reasons, that I write
in the book that it was time tomake this move.
And when I made this move, igot a lot of questions from
people and some of the questionswere how did you eliminate risk
?
To which I said you don'teliminate risk, that's not, at
least that's not the world Ilive in.
But you can shrink risk.
(04:37):
And they would say, okay, well,how did you shrink risk?
And so I began to unpack.
Well, here's how I figured outwhat to do next.
And everybody said, hey, couldyou?
could you write that down,could you send that to me?
And the more I had peopleasking me how did you figure out
what to do next?
At some point I just figuredout, with the help of some
friends I think people need tohear this how to figure out what
to do next.
(04:57):
Because over the last 20-someodd years I've made four big
career moves and I was actuallyleaving something that was
working really, really well.
So it wasn't like it wasplummeting or that things
weren't working.
It was working well.
But I'd gotten to a point whereI was so interested in kind of
what was next that it kind ofruined where I was.
I don't like the word ruined,but I just felt like I'll regret
(05:22):
this if I don't go after this.
But this is not a plea forpeople to leave.
This is not a plea for peopleto make reckless decisions, But
this is also a plea for folks toremember that sometimes the
greatest risk isn't leaving.
Sometimes the greatest risk isstaying.
And how do you figure that out?
And that's what I wrote thebook.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Did you know that many of the things that I
discuss on the Uncommon Leaderpodcast are subjects that I
coach other leaders andorganizations on?
If you would be interested inhaving me discuss one-on-one or
group coaching with you, or knowsomeone who is looking to move
from underperforming to uncommonin their business or life, i
would love to chat with you.
Click the link in the shownotes to set up a free call to
discuss how coaching mightbenefit you and your team.
(06:08):
Now back to the show, jeff,while it leads right into the
next question do you think aboutthat as a career change again?
Ten years ago I was sitting ina pizza shop having a question
with a supervisor that I want tobe able to do something like
this.
I said I don't think we'regoing to let you do something
(06:28):
like that, and I let it festerfor a long time.
You talk about that word,whether it's making a bad
decision or whatever that is, orI think it's a distraction.
You certainly start to thinkabout, hey, what could I be
doing?
And that dream stays in you fora while And you talk about this
inside of the book really thelife of an idea.
(06:51):
It leads, really really good,into that story.
What is that?
I mean?
it starts to burn inside of youa little bit and you have to
make either one way or the other.
What is that life of the ideafor you and what that means?
Sometimes the idea dies.
Sometimes it grows.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, so really the life cycle of the idea is
there's the birth of the idea,and everyone has had the birth
of the idea, but at some pointthe idea is going to die or
there's going to be a challengeto the idea, and that's where a
lot of us stop.
But the third stage is wherethe idea gets resurrected in
some form or fashion And then,if you keep being persistent, it
will ascend in some differentform or fashion.
(07:26):
And if you look at startups,organizations, business or
nonprofits, when someone had anidea, that's pretty much the
journey they had.
Hey, i had this idea.
Oh, then it got reallydifficult, but I kept moving and
it morphed and it changed andit came to this.
And then now look at where I am.
And so that journey of an ideahas helped me over the course of
time to realize that when I hitstage two, the death of the
(07:50):
idea or the obstacle, that's notthe conclusion, that's a
chapter.
Now, that's not to say thatbusinesses don't close,
nonprofits don't grow, don'tclose They could.
But that in and of itself is achapter and you can morph and
move into something else, andthe business world is full of
stories of people that movedfrom stage two to stage three
(08:15):
And I'm in Atlanta, home town ofHome Depot.
It's exactly what happened toBernie Marcus and Arthur Blank
They get fired and then theyeventually wound up launching
Home Depot And so understandingwhat to do next.
That's why I tell folks, if youreally need to consistently be
(08:36):
looking at this And nowsometimes next happens to us
right, the company getsdownsized, we get let go all of
that.
So that's another thing that wecan talk about.
But that's why I'm a bigbeliever in side hustles and
experimenting on the side, andthat's really the.
My first book really led me tothis next season because I
(08:56):
experimented with an idea I hadcalled the business breakfast,
where I would travel around andI would go speak at churches on
Sunday and do a businessbreakfast on Monday and I was
testing it out And I remember Iwas in Elkhorn, nebraska They do
for Elkhorn, which is part ofwhat the book was about, and
they so resonated with it And Iremember a call, wendy and going
(09:17):
if the folks in wonderfulElkhorn Nebraska are resonating
with this, i think this may beour next season, but you have to
experiment with that And that'swhy I think side hustles are
really, really important, evenif you're not necessarily
looking for something continuingto grow, continuing to explore,
continuing to leverage yourstrengths Because at some point
(09:38):
it might morph into somethingthat could be your next.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Jeff, i love that And you just touched on something.
Really, that was one of myalmost not a trick question for
you, but I told a friend of mineand a mastermind that I was
going to ask it anyway whogifted me your first book And he
loves to post on LinkedIn apicture of the books that he
reads And he says what he'sreading.
He says I just don't know if Ican post what to do next as the
book that I'm reading becauseit's going to look like I want
(10:02):
to leave the organization, butthat's not really the intent
behind what is in that book.
So if he's worried about what'snext, what advice can you give
him that says it's really notjust about leaving your career,
but it's preparing.
What can he be doing to prepare?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
So I've had organizations invite me in and
they've actually said that okay,jeff, we're really excited that
you're here, but don't let ourstaff leave, especially within
the current great resignation.
And what I tell them is hey,from the very beginning, this
isn't about you leaving your job.
I quote one of my best friendsin the book, david Farmer, who
says if you're the same personsix months from now, you're
(10:39):
falling behind.
So this really is aboutbringing the next best version
of you, and whenever we get toocomfortable and we're not
growing, there should be awarning light on the dashboard
of our lives.
I tell people hey, if you knowsomeone, you may not be wanting
to know what to do next, but howmany of you and I've tried this
out, it's 100% every time, johnhow many of you would raise
(11:01):
your hand you know someone who'strying to figure out what to do
next?
Everybody knows someone, and Isaid that's why you should post
about this book.
So hey, i want to beencouragement to you.
You can figure this out.
It's not as mysterious.
And I think the other helpfulpiece of advice is for people
that are trying to figure thisout is hey, you don't have to
figure out the rest of your life.
You just got to figure out whatto do next, and so I think,
(11:22):
with your friend, i would justsay, hey, i would post it for
hey, if you've got a friendthat's trying to figure out what
to do next, this might behelpful resource for her or for
him because everybody needsencouragement, especially those
that are looking at it maybe inthe middle of a career
transition.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That's uh I'm smiling and I know I don't do this as a
video podcast, because I thinkhe really will get a Kick out of
that but it's not just aboutcareer change.
It's about who you're going toto be next as well, because
you're exactly right if you arethe same person Six months, nine
months, even even 12 monthsfrom now as you are today, then
(11:56):
you are absolutely going to fallbehind.
That's just that theexpectations go up and we should
always be on that continuousDevelopment journey, and so I
know you're a big fan of John.
Maxwell.
You talk about him in there.
He talks about lifelonglearning and all the big pieces
that are there and where I'm abig fan of his as well.
I, i want to.
I want to keep staying, youknow, within this book.
I think it's fun a conversation, wise, you talk about helping
(12:20):
people wait During this periodand there's one tip in there.
I don't want to give all them,because I want people to read
the book and I want them toreach out to me, say I want a
copy and I'll send it to them.
I really will.
But I was especially impactedby one of the tips you talked
about was find your muse, and Itreally was.
You know, find your who tostart thinking about.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat one And maybe even other
(12:40):
ways people can prepare and waitfor that change.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So many people.
John said I just don't knowwhat to do.
I don't know really what I wantto do, and I understand that,
and so my advice then is Wetalked a little bit about side
hustles, but my advice at thatpoint is find someone that
inspires you and and then followtheir path.
So you mentioned John Maxwell.
John Maxwell is someone that Iwant to follow his path.
(13:05):
He was a pastor, but John caneasily move into the business
space with with no problem atall.
They're like okay, yes, it'sJohn Maxwell, he can move into
the government space, he canmove into the education space,
he can move into the sportingspace, and I thought that's,
that's what I want to do.
I want to move seamlesslybetween church and business.
Michael Hyatt is another one.
(13:25):
I had a chance to go do acommunication training.
I put this in the look withwith Michael, because part of
what I do is coach communicatorson how to give their Make their
presence, their nextpresentation, their best
presentation, and I went up toFranklin, tennessee, and I came
home and told Wendy I said Idon't know really what I saw
today, but whatever it is, ithink that's what I want to do.
I think I want to.
(13:46):
And so Michael Hyatt becamekind of amused to go Well, jeff,
what do you want to do?
I don't know, but I think I sawit and I think it's that, and
And it's not exactly whatMichael does and not exactly
what John does, but it's enoughfor me to go.
I want to move in thatdirection.
And and so Who?
if you're not clear about youknow what to do next?
(14:06):
It's okay, find someone thatyou can model their path.
That doesn't mean that you'recopying them, but that you, you
might be inspired by whatthey're doing.
They give you a vision to to goafter it.
And I remember shortly afterwe're just about six weeks after
, and I'd made my transition Iwas speaking in a conference
with John Maxel and he spokefirst and and he said, hey, i
(14:26):
never had a clear vision, i justkept moving forward.
And I mean I just thought, oh,my goodness, that's.
I hope they get something outof my talk.
But that's why I'm here todayto hear that, because if John
Maxwell didn't have a clearvision I know a mere mortal like
me doesn't have a clear vision.
Well, i know.
But John Maxwell, mean, hestole like 36 million books and
he, he didn't invent leadership,but I feel like he invented the
(14:48):
leadership category from apublishing standpoint.
He never had a clear vision, hejust kept moving forward.
Okay, well, that's a muse to me, that's an inspiration to go,
and on the days that are hard,on the days that don't things
don't work out, i'm gonna keepmoving forward, because that's
what John does.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
He does a great job And I think he and both Michael
Hyatt are great individuals,great leaders.
To emulate what they do andreally identify that and I've
used a quote before.
I said I don't want to benecessarily them, but I want to
be like them inspirational,encouraging, motivating, high
character, just just salt to theearth, kind of individuals that
(15:26):
are, that are there to toemulate.
So I appreciate you sharingthat as well.
I Emulate as well.
You have to listen for a voicewhen you're making a change.
Now, jeff I share this becauseI read it You had been working
for Chick-fil-A and you didn'tmake a change like said okay,
i'm going to go for another andwork for another restaurant,
change in a higher role or achange like that.
(15:48):
You changed, let's say, the wordindustries.
You changed basically yourcalling.
I love how you define a callingin the book that says when your
heart and soul say yes and yourhead says huh.
I find that to be amusing and,again, absolutely challenging.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat story and again how you
(16:10):
recognized that that was whatyou're supposed to do.
Maybe it's the Nebraska story,maybe something different.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I'll say this as well Your mind is it the only one
that says huh?
your parents do, your in-lawsdo, your friends do Wait, wait,
wait.
You're leaving a multi-billiondollar company to go out and
start a church where thepreacher is going to be on video
.
This makes absolutely no sense.
That's they were right.
It didn't make any sense.
And yet we still knew that thiswas the vision that we saw was,
(16:39):
if we don't go after this andit works whenever we drive by
this church building, we willalways regret, because we could
have looked at that and said wecould have been a part of that,
but we were too scared And Ijust and at that point again, i
mentioned this earlier, john, idon't like the word ruined, but
Chick-fil-A was kind of ruinedfor me at that point, because I
(17:00):
knew I'm so intrigued by this,this church, that we were going
to launch.
I'm a preacher's kid.
I promised myself I would never, ever, work at a church.
I worked in a church for 17years.
So if your listeners don't getout, get anything out of what I
say today, just they might wantto write.
I'll never say you're nevergoing to do so And but it was
just an incredible.
(17:20):
It was an incredible ride And,but it matched up with my
giftings, it matched up with myskills, it matched up with what
Wendy and I were being led to,and and I got a green light from
all of my mentors in my life,including my in-laws and my
parents.
But I'll say this when I leftChick-fil-A, because everybody,
(17:44):
you know, looking back now,buckhead Church is, you know,
just.
It's been an.
It was an incredible story tobe a part of.
So from now looking back, itmakes like perfect sense.
But then it didn't And I wasn't.
People ask me how did you knowthat Buckhead Church was going
to work?
I didn't.
So this is why I needed toleave Chick-fil-A really, really
well, and I wrote the everybodyon the executive committee and
(18:08):
everyone in the marketingdepartment, which collected like
70 people.
I all wrote them a note andthanking them.
I didn't say this in the note,john, but basically I said if
the church doesn't work out, canI come back here and work Right
?
So and I think this is aprinciple that we often miss is
how you leave your currentseason, is how you begin your
(18:29):
next season, and I just wantedto leave Chick-fil-A exceedingly
well.
I want to leave every time Iwant to leave as well as I
possibly can, and so I had donethe due diligence for three
years when this idea of a churchplant began to surface in my
heart and Wendy's heart.
It wasn't like I had this ideaon a Friday and reside on a
Monday and started on Wednesday.
(18:50):
This is a three year process ofgetting involved, understanding
what my gift mix was.
What were they looking for?
How is this going to work?
But still, there was drivingaway from Chick-fil-A.
I mean I can see the Larry Birdfigure on your desk there They
gave me.
And my last day at Chick-fil-Athey gave me an autograph Larry
(19:11):
Bird jersey as a thank you gift.
And I'm driving away with thatin the back of my car thinking
this is the dumbest thing I'veever done, because Chick-fil-A's
retention rate is 98% at thecorporate staff And I'm one of
the crazy 2%.
So but again, there's always apart of the risk.
(19:31):
But we wanted to shrink therisk as much as we could And if
it didn't work out, we could atleast say you know what?
we gave it a shot, it was worthit And we'll figure something
out.
But fortunately.
Fortunately, it worked outreally well.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I smile so much.
I mean again, i don't.
I don't even want to talk aboutmy stories in terms of when I
left Rona for June the firsttime and I had young children
three and one and we took mymother-in-law and father-in-law
to lunch And we hadn't, we'djust barely ordered our lunch
and my wife says well, we'releaving and moving to Indiana.
Her mom goes check And I don'tthink she talked to me for two
years but she got it.
And then, five years later, icame back you don't burn that
(20:06):
bridge And we actually went intobusiness together.
My mother-in-law and I wentinto business together in real
estate.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
She did start to talk to me again in terms of how
that works.
But in terms of leaving, youtouched on that.
I mean and you touched on thisin several things in the book
You don't burn bridges as youleave, because that opportunity
may come back to you in terms of, again, i left an organization
at the top.
They came back to me threetimes And I said no three times.
(20:31):
When they come back And I'mstill good friends with the CEO,
with the retired CEO now, who'sstill my mentor.
So all those stories too muchabout me You talk about in the
book, when you do leave, don'tlinger too long when you leave.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat as well.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
All right, this was great feedback when I because,
when I left Buckhead Church tohelp start another church and
that's really where the fouridea was born in Gwinnett County
, which is a county north ofAtlanta, it's the largest county
in Georgia And that's when fourGwinnett was kind of sparked
and born and then other churchesstarted emulating that around
the country, which is fun to see.
(21:10):
But when I left Buckhead andwhen I left Gwinnett, i just I
was reminded by a mentor whenyou leave, leave, don't linger
and give the next leader space,because they may and they will
change things, you know, and sodon't be lingering around where
people can come up to you and goHey, what's going on?
I don't like this.
Gosh, we really wish you werestill here.
(21:30):
All that kind of stuff thathappens when, when former
leaders kind of still lingeraround too much, and so we, we
left, which is hard becauseyou're leaving not just your job
, you're leaving your community,you're leaving the people.
In this case I hired everyoneat the two Gwinnett's locations.
But in honor and respect to thenew leaders, you need to leave.
(21:53):
And I see sometimes and again,every situation is unique and
different.
Sometimes I see leaders,especially founders they quote
unquote leave and then they takeus kind of a side job And I
don't know about that And again,it can work, but I just wonder
how the leader who's having totake over for that leader feels.
(22:13):
So I, just for me, i just feltlike I'm going to, you know, i'm
going to leave, really, reallywell, and there's another
principle I put in the book thatI think it's helpful to note is
that how you leave anorganization is one thing, how
the organization leaves you isthe other, and you don't have
control over that.
So, take the high road, but youknow, if they're not treating
(22:33):
you well, you can, you know,still be respectful and silent
and move on, but how you leaveis in your area of
responsibility.
Yeah, control absolutely, butwe never.
I don't know why we don't talkabout leaving well that much in
leadership circles because wethink it's like a two week
(22:54):
notice.
It's not Every day.
You're one step closer toleaving, wherever you are.
And just, and it's an emotionalbattle I was with this morning,
i had breakfast with agentleman who's the president of
a multi-billion dollar companyand he's retiring at the end of
the year, and we talked moreabout the emotional part of that
(23:16):
for him versus what is he goingto do.
He's going to be fine, but it'sreally the battle for him is
going to be the emotional one,because people have to move on.
This is a high-pacedorganization and people that he
hears from right now every day.
It'll go from every day tothree days, to one week, to two
weeks, to three months, to notseeing them for six months, to
(23:37):
maybe never seeing them again.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
So, and that's just the part of organizational life
that you have to deal with- Ithink you're exactly right And I
think that doesn't necessarilyimpact the legacy that you leave
as well.
I mean, I think that's stillthere, but it is a situation you
got to let the next leader bethe next leader as well, and
when you're leaving that andfind that opportunity.
And if you take, you know, theadvice that's in your book in
(24:00):
terms of leaving well and someof the things you do, the story
that you talked about how youmet with the team and made sure
everything was going to work outover the last period of time
that absolutely is so good.
It's something I always say.
How are you going to make sureyou finish well?
There's no doubt about that.
Hey, let me ask you this funquestion, a little bit outside
the book, maybe a little bit init.
So I have a 23-year-old whowent into the youth ministry.
(24:20):
He said he wants to plantchurches.
It's like where he is right nowAnd you talk about in the book.
Why would we ask an 18-year-oldto make a decision on where
they're going to be in life fouryears out and what they're
going to study and things likethat?
And you were going through thatAnd I remember you know he
talked about when he turned 20,going into ministry, me being
the fine dad that I was.
(24:41):
I'm like, okay, what are yougoing to study?
so that I know they won't makeany money in ministry, so you
got to have some other gig goingon.
Maybe you should study historyand be a lawyer, so that you can
also be administered at thesame time.
And he went into the youthministry.
What do you have to tell him?
Let me be.
You know, joseph, when he wantsto plant a church, what do you
have to tell him?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So your 20s are your opportunity to discover what
you're really good at, what yourskill set And, yeah, what
you're passionate about.
but sometimes what you'repassionate about, that's not
necessarily your pathway.
And I mean, you can bepassionate about country music,
but you can't go into countrymusic if you can't sing right.
(25:23):
So I think, understanding whatare you good at And where are
your skills helping solve aproblem for organizations.
And I think sometimes we'vetalked about ideas, but really
what I was trained on,especially at Chick-fil-A, my
marketing mentor said, hey, aproblem well-defined is half
(25:45):
solved.
Don't fall in love with theidea.
Fall in love with the problemand then figure out.
The idea will come.
And so in your 20s, what's yourskill set?
Where do you go to try as muchstuff as you possibly can in
terms of the work that's beforeyou and then figure out where is
(26:06):
that helping you solve theproblem?
So in youth ministry, okay,well, we all know that youth are
really struggling with anxietyand depression at alarming rates
.
Okay, so what can you do in achurch setting to help solve
that in your community?
Get to know the students inyour community.
And how are you a goodcommunicator?
(26:26):
Are you a good leader?
Are you a good strategist?
Are you a good event planner?
Try it all out.
And early in my 20s I worked inmarketing for the Atlanta Braves
and discovered there are somethings that I was terrible at.
They had to be selling programads without a call.
Like Coca-Cola, would you liketo buy an ad in the Braves
program.
I was horrible at it.
My palms would sweat, i wouldstutter.
They couldn't understand what Iwas saying.
(26:47):
So I came home and told my dadI'm just terrible at this.
And my dad said that's goodnews.
But how is that good news?
He goes you've discoveredsomething that you're not good
at.
But I know there's things thatyou're doing that you are good
at.
What is it?
Well, i'm pretty good atwriting and coming up with ideas
and working with corporatesponsors.
When we do like Coca-Cola BatNight or something, Hellment
(27:08):
Night.
And he goes okay, that's payattention to that.
I just I feel like we do peoplein their 20s like you're
starting to service when we handthem a piece of paper with
boxes on them and say check one,and to let us know what you're
going to do for the rest of yourlife.
I just don't think that's thereality of how any of us figured
this out.
It's why people change theirmajor in college two or three
times And even when they do getout, they're still trying to
(27:29):
figure out what to do next.
So it's a journey, and sothat's, and that's what.
My daughter's a year out ofcollege and she's helping launch
a church and it's beenincredible.
There's been things she'sdiscovered.
She's great at some things thatshe doesn't like doing.
All that's the learning process, especially in your 20s.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Love it, jeff.
I appreciate you sharing thatAbsolutely Well, jeff, i
certainly.
I know you've done a lot ofthese podcasts after the book
launch and getting this thingready to go.
I am curious.
just really.
two more questions from mebecause I want to honor your
time.
You've been so gracious withyour time, but what?
what question has nobody askedyou that you wish somebody would
(28:08):
have asked you about the book,and I don't know if that's a
fair question or not, but as youthink about that like I just
wish they'd ask me this question.
They never do.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I think what, what did you take out of the book
that you know, because I've had,i had friends, you know, read
it.
They read, you know, fullversion And and, and I think you
know it's good, because part ofthis for me was therapeutic,
and writing it because I, iwrote it the month after we had
(28:40):
left.
That's when I started Well, no,it was a little longer than
that, so but when I started it,you know, we're still kind of in
the grief process of all that,and so I think this was a, this
was a good form of counselingfor me, and because part of it,
part of what to do next, i wouldsay the largest part of what to
(29:02):
do next.
But let me say this if you'vebeen somewhere and you gave your
heart and soul and you gave itall, and then you wake up one
day, like I did, and you're notthere anymore and I wasn't
moving toward one job to thenext, i was moving from a job to
an idea, and banks don'tdeposit ideas.
(29:22):
I've checked, i've asked them.
They've said no, so where isthis money gonna come from, and
all of that.
And so I think, just the whatdid you decide to take out?
What did you decide?
Because I didn't want this tobe too.
There's a whole chapter aboutgrief And I write in the chapter
(29:44):
.
I know you didn't get this bookto talk about grief, but I, it
was a part of my story.
But I hired a transitionconsultant And I was processing
this with him.
He goes Jeff, this is what I dofor a living.
You're not some odd person thatis at a great day and at a bad
day and you're trying to figurethis out.
This is actually what I do fora living.
(30:05):
And what people what keeps meand my employees people are
going through career transitionsgoing?
how do I figure this out?
And so no one's really asked mewhat.
What is out of the book?
So maybe that's the sequel ofthe book, what I took out.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Okay, okay.
Well, i know you got anotherone coming and I want to ask you
to reveal it, because you saidat the very end you got a third
one brewing, so maybe that'spart of it.
But, look, I appreciate youbeing so honest And I do always
have my guests.
Maybe it gives you anopportunity to say this at the
end as well.
But each, each of the guests onthe podcast, I ask them.
I give them a billboard.
So I'm gonna give you abillboard in Atlanta, Goodness
gracious, Maybe right outsidethe airport, the busiest airport
(30:42):
in the world And everybody sitsin traffic so they can watch it
anyway.
But I give you that billboardand you can write anything on
that billboard that you want.
What are you gonna write onthat billboard and why are you
gonna put that on there?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I've actually done this And I've put eat more
chicken And that was one time up.
Then I put hashtag for going atanother billboard.
So I've kind of done thisbefore.
But I know that's not whatyou're asking, john, but it's
gotta be just two or three wordsfor my marketing background.
So I would say the two words Iwould put would be practice,
humility, practice humility.
(31:16):
No one wants to follow anarrogant leader, but I was with
an organization recently.
One of their values that theyshowed me was we are humble.
And I said I don't like thatAnd I thought you wanted us to
be humble.
Everybody wants you to behumble, but we are humble is
saying you know what one of thebest thing about us is?
We're our humility.
(31:37):
We are so humble.
We are humble.
That's who we are.
Humility is not a noun, humilityis a verb, and so I can't come
to work every day and go.
I am humble.
What I need to do is ask thequestion will I practice
humility today And will I takethe low place?
When I come into a conferenceroom, will I look for the top
(31:58):
seat or will I look for the seatof least significance and push
everybody forward?
And my first business mentorsaid there's not a limit to what
a person can do when he or shedoesn't care who gets the credit
, and so he was teaching meabout practicing humility.
And it's just a.
It's a, it's a character checkAnd people want to follow humble
(32:23):
, humble leaders.
People want to follow leaderswho are practicing humility.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Absolutely, jeff.
That doesn't need anything elsefrom me.
All I have to say is Iappreciate you investing the
time with our listeners herewith me, and taking that chance
with me when I ask big and askyou to be on the podcast.
I certainly appreciate youtaking that opportunity And I
will be sure to continue to giftwhat to do next And what are
(32:51):
you for To many people who aregrowing.
So thank you again for being onthe show.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Thanks, john, i appreciate your support means a
lot And we'll see you soon,hopefully somewhere down the
road.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Alrighty, well, that's all for today's episode
of the uncommon leader podcast.
Thanks for listening in.
Please take just a minute toshare this podcast with that
someone you know that youthought of when you heard this
episode.
One of the most valuable thingsyou can do is to rate the
podcast and lead a review.
You can do that on Applepodcast or you can rate the
(33:21):
podcast on Spotify or any otherplatform you listen.
Until next time, go and growchannels.
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast, and I'm your host, john
Gallagher.
In today's news, we're seeing awave of job cuts spanning
various industries, affectingnearly 200,000 US employees so
far in 2023, according toForbes' layoff tracker.
Chances are you know someonewho's been impacted by this
trend.
In such challenging times, oneof the best gifts that you can
(00:23):
give them is encouragement.
Back in November 2022, i had theopportunity to read the book
What to Do Next by JeffHenderson, and I was fortunate
enough to interview Jeff abouthis book and gain some of his
insights on how to navigatechallenging times and be
prepared to do what's next.
Now, given the relevance of hismessage to today's economic
climate, i've decided to resharethat episode with you.
(00:45):
Life is full of storms and atany given moment, we may find
ourselves in the midst of one,in the cusp of encountering one
or emerging from the aftermathof another.
That's why I believe thisconversation will not only
provide practical advice andencouragement, but also equip
you with the tools to navigatethe challenges of your current
reality.
Let's get started.
(01:10):
Good afternoon, jeff Henderson.
Welcome to the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
I'm so honored to have you as aguest on the show and I know
that the listeners of thepodcast are really going to
enjoy this.
I'd ask you right off the batthe first question that I always
ask all the guests on thepodcast.
while we'll get a chance totalk about your book, i want to
get the guest to learn a littlebit more about you and your
story.
So I always ask everybody totalk about a story from their
(01:33):
childhood or their early youththat still defines kind of who
they are today.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
It's interesting you mentioned that, john, because
last night I celebrated my 26thwedding anniversary.
Wendy and I did, and so when Iwas 10 years old I've told her
this about a million times Infact I wrote her an anniversary
card and mentioned this storyagain.
When I was 10 years old, i waswalking home from my friend's
house in North Georgia,beautiful summer night.
I just was praying and Lord at10, i was like here's the life I
want to marry someday.
(01:59):
And then I got married at 31.
So 21 years later it took 21years, but Wendy's eight years
younger than me, so it took her.
She had to grow up before Imarried her, or if I would have
got arrested.
But that story is like, hey,just be patient, have a vision
for your life.
Obviously I needed to be theman that she deserved, and then
(02:20):
we celebrated 26 years yesterday.
So in fact I you know theanniversary card wrote that
story when I was 10 years old.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Wow, jeff.
I so appreciate you sharingthat.
That is really cool.
I mean 26 years congratulationsfirst to both of you And that
is quite an accomplishment.
And I think I'm at 28 years,chris and I are at 28,.
at least I better say thatright, or I'm going to get in
big trouble.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, 28 years, 28 years this year, good, good,
good.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah, you get past 20 to 26 and you start forgetting
how many years that is, becausethat also impacts your age as
well.
But again, thanks for sharingthat story And I want to really
jump in.
I mean, i could share storiesas to how I get connected with
you and we'll hear about it interms of giving your cell phone
number out and how graciousyou've been to be a guest.
But we're really here today totalk about you know, your book,
(03:08):
what to do next, and you can seeI've got a lot of pages marked
in there and things like that.
I could ask a hundred questionsas to go forward, but I really
loved doing that in book And Ithink as I read it it was
started off.
I had a friend who gifted thebook What Do You For To Me And
then, after reading that one,you and I connected.
I saw the What Do You Do Nextcame out of someone read that as
well, just to see what's in itand absorbing the story that you
(03:29):
had.
When I read it.
I swear you wrote it to me muchlike that story 10 years ago
And I needed to read it 10 yearsago And I waited too many years
to, in essence, really takesome of the advice that you had
in that book, but I think youwrote it just for me.
But I know you didn't write itjust for me, so tell me a little
bit about how you got to write,why you wrote, what Do You Do
(03:51):
Next and who you wrote it for.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So I made a move, like you have made, john, and I
think everybody's made, but Imade mine two years ago and in
my mid fifties and organizationthat I helped start as a pastor.
I helped start two churches inmy hometown and I made a change
in the middle of a globalpandemic.
So everything was kind ofscreaming like don't do this,
stay, stay.
(04:16):
But we felt, for a lot ofdifferent reasons, that I write
in the book that it was time tomake this move.
And when I made this move, igot a lot of questions from
people and some of the questionswere how did you eliminate risk
?
To which I said you don'teliminate risk, that's not, at
least that's not the world Ilive in.
But you can shrink risk.
(04:37):
And they would say, okay, well,how did you shrink risk?
And so I began to unpack.
Well, here's how I figured outwhat to do next.
And everybody said, hey, couldyou?
could you write that down,could you send that to me?
And the more I had peopleasking me how did you figure out
what to do next?
At some point I just figuredout, with the help of some
friends I think people need tohear this how to figure out what
to do next.
(04:57):
Because over the last 20-someodd years I've made four big
career moves and I was actuallyleaving something that was
working really, really well.
So it wasn't like it wasplummeting or that things
weren't working.
It was working well.
But I'd gotten to a point whereI was so interested in kind of
what was next that it kind ofruined where I was.
I don't like the word ruined,but I just felt like I'll regret
(05:22):
this if I don't go after this.
But this is not a plea forpeople to leave.
This is not a plea for peopleto make reckless decisions, But
this is also a plea for folks toremember that sometimes the
greatest risk isn't leaving.
Sometimes the greatest risk isstaying.
And how do you figure that out?
And that's what I wrote thebook.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Did you know that many of the things that I
discuss on the Uncommon Leaderpodcast are subjects that I
coach other leaders andorganizations on?
If you would be interested inhaving me discuss one-on-one or
group coaching with you, or knowsomeone who is looking to move
from underperforming to uncommonin their business or life, i
would love to chat with you.
Click the link in the shownotes to set up a free call to
discuss how coaching mightbenefit you and your team.
(06:08):
Now back to the show, jeff,while it leads right into the
next question do you think aboutthat as a career change again?
Ten years ago I was sitting ina pizza shop having a question
with a supervisor that I want tobe able to do something like
this.
I said I don't think we'regoing to let you do something
(06:28):
like that, and I let it festerfor a long time.
You talk about that word,whether it's making a bad
decision or whatever that is, orI think it's a distraction.
You certainly start to thinkabout, hey, what could I be
doing?
And that dream stays in you fora while And you talk about this
inside of the book really thelife of an idea.
(06:51):
It leads, really really good,into that story.
What is that?
I mean?
it starts to burn inside of youa little bit and you have to
make either one way or the other.
What is that life of the ideafor you and what that means?
Sometimes the idea dies.
Sometimes it grows.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, so really the life cycle of the idea is
there's the birth of the idea,and everyone has had the birth
of the idea, but at some pointthe idea is going to die or
there's going to be a challengeto the idea, and that's where a
lot of us stop.
But the third stage is wherethe idea gets resurrected in
some form or fashion And then,if you keep being persistent, it
will ascend in some differentform or fashion.
(07:26):
And if you look at startups,organizations, business or
nonprofits, when someone had anidea, that's pretty much the
journey they had.
Hey, i had this idea.
Oh, then it got reallydifficult, but I kept moving and
it morphed and it changed andit came to this.
And then now look at where I am.
And so that journey of an ideahas helped me over the course of
time to realize that when I hitstage two, the death of the
(07:50):
idea or the obstacle, that's notthe conclusion, that's a
chapter.
Now, that's not to say thatbusinesses don't close,
nonprofits don't grow, don'tclose They could.
But that in and of itself is achapter and you can morph and
move into something else, andthe business world is full of
stories of people that movedfrom stage two to stage three
(08:15):
And I'm in Atlanta, home town ofHome Depot.
It's exactly what happened toBernie Marcus and Arthur Blank
They get fired and then theyeventually wound up launching
Home Depot And so understandingwhat to do next.
That's why I tell folks, if youreally need to consistently be
(08:36):
looking at this And nowsometimes next happens to us
right, the company getsdownsized, we get let go all of
that.
So that's another thing that wecan talk about.
But that's why I'm a bigbeliever in side hustles and
experimenting on the side, andthat's really the.
My first book really led me tothis next season because I
(08:56):
experimented with an idea I hadcalled the business breakfast,
where I would travel around andI would go speak at churches on
Sunday and do a businessbreakfast on Monday and I was
testing it out And I remember Iwas in Elkhorn, nebraska They do
for Elkhorn, which is part ofwhat the book was about, and
they so resonated with it And Iremember a call, wendy and going
(09:17):
if the folks in wonderfulElkhorn Nebraska are resonating
with this, i think this may beour next season, but you have to
experiment with that And that'swhy I think side hustles are
really, really important, evenif you're not necessarily
looking for something continuingto grow, continuing to explore,
continuing to leverage yourstrengths Because at some point
(09:38):
it might morph into somethingthat could be your next.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Jeff, i love that And you just touched on something.
Really, that was one of myalmost not a trick question for
you, but I told a friend of mineand a mastermind that I was
going to ask it anyway whogifted me your first book And he
loves to post on LinkedIn apicture of the books that he
reads And he says what he'sreading.
He says I just don't know if Ican post what to do next as the
book that I'm reading becauseit's going to look like I want
(10:02):
to leave the organization, butthat's not really the intent
behind what is in that book.
So if he's worried about what'snext, what advice can you give
him that says it's really notjust about leaving your career,
but it's preparing.
What can he be doing to prepare?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
So I've had organizations invite me in and
they've actually said that okay,jeff, we're really excited that
you're here, but don't let ourstaff leave, especially within
the current great resignation.
And what I tell them is hey,from the very beginning, this
isn't about you leaving your job.
I quote one of my best friendsin the book, david Farmer, who
says if you're the same personsix months from now, you're
(10:39):
falling behind.
So this really is aboutbringing the next best version
of you, and whenever we get toocomfortable and we're not
growing, there should be awarning light on the dashboard
of our lives.
I tell people hey, if you knowsomeone, you may not be wanting
to know what to do next, but howmany of you and I've tried this
out, it's 100% every time, johnhow many of you would raise
(11:01):
your hand you know someone who'strying to figure out what to do
next?
Everybody knows someone, and Isaid that's why you should post
about this book.
So hey, i want to beencouragement to you.
You can figure this out.
It's not as mysterious.
And I think the other helpfulpiece of advice is for people
that are trying to figure thisout is hey, you don't have to
figure out the rest of your life.
You just got to figure out whatto do next, and so I think,
(11:22):
with your friend, i would justsay, hey, i would post it for
hey, if you've got a friendthat's trying to figure out what
to do next, this might behelpful resource for her or for
him because everybody needsencouragement, especially those
that are looking at it maybe inthe middle of a career
transition.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That's uh I'm smiling and I know I don't do this as a
video podcast, because I thinkhe really will get a Kick out of
that but it's not just aboutcareer change.
It's about who you're going toto be next as well, because
you're exactly right if you arethe same person Six months, nine
months, even even 12 monthsfrom now as you are today, then
(11:56):
you are absolutely going to fallbehind.
That's just that theexpectations go up and we should
always be on that continuousDevelopment journey, and so I
know you're a big fan of John.
Maxwell.
You talk about him in there.
He talks about lifelonglearning and all the big pieces
that are there and where I'm abig fan of his as well.
I, i want to.
I want to keep staying, youknow, within this book.
I think it's fun a conversation, wise, you talk about helping
(12:20):
people wait During this periodand there's one tip in there.
I don't want to give all them,because I want people to read
the book and I want them toreach out to me, say I want a
copy and I'll send it to them.
I really will.
But I was especially impactedby one of the tips you talked
about was find your muse, and Itreally was.
You know, find your who tostart thinking about.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat one And maybe even other
(12:40):
ways people can prepare and waitfor that change.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So many people.
John said I just don't knowwhat to do.
I don't know really what I wantto do, and I understand that,
and so my advice then is Wetalked a little bit about side
hustles, but my advice at thatpoint is find someone that
inspires you and and then followtheir path.
So you mentioned John Maxwell.
John Maxwell is someone that Iwant to follow his path.
(13:05):
He was a pastor, but John caneasily move into the business
space with with no problem atall.
They're like okay, yes, it'sJohn Maxwell, he can move into
the government space, he canmove into the education space,
he can move into the sportingspace, and I thought that's,
that's what I want to do.
I want to move seamlesslybetween church and business.
Michael Hyatt is another one.
(13:25):
I had a chance to go do acommunication training.
I put this in the look withwith Michael, because part of
what I do is coach communicatorson how to give their Make their
presence, their nextpresentation, their best
presentation, and I went up toFranklin, tennessee, and I came
home and told Wendy I said Idon't know really what I saw
today, but whatever it is, ithink that's what I want to do.
I think I want to.
(13:46):
And so Michael Hyatt becamekind of amused to go Well, jeff,
what do you want to do?
I don't know, but I think I sawit and I think it's that, and
And it's not exactly whatMichael does and not exactly
what John does, but it's enoughfor me to go.
I want to move in thatdirection.
And and so Who?
if you're not clear about youknow what to do next?
(14:06):
It's okay, find someone thatyou can model their path.
That doesn't mean that you'recopying them, but that you, you
might be inspired by whatthey're doing.
They give you a vision to to goafter it.
And I remember shortly afterwe're just about six weeks after
, and I'd made my transition Iwas speaking in a conference
with John Maxel and he spokefirst and and he said, hey, i
(14:26):
never had a clear vision, i justkept moving forward.
And I mean I just thought, oh,my goodness, that's.
I hope they get something outof my talk.
But that's why I'm here todayto hear that, because if John
Maxwell didn't have a clearvision I know a mere mortal like
me doesn't have a clear vision.
Well, i know.
But John Maxwell, mean, hestole like 36 million books and
he, he didn't invent leadership,but I feel like he invented the
(14:48):
leadership category from apublishing standpoint.
He never had a clear vision, hejust kept moving forward.
Okay, well, that's a muse to me, that's an inspiration to go,
and on the days that are hard,on the days that don't things
don't work out, i'm gonna keepmoving forward, because that's
what John does.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
He does a great job And I think he and both Michael
Hyatt are great individuals,great leaders.
To emulate what they do andreally identify that and I've
used a quote before.
I said I don't want to benecessarily them, but I want to
be like them inspirational,encouraging, motivating, high
character, just just salt to theearth, kind of individuals that
(15:26):
are, that are there to toemulate.
So I appreciate you sharingthat as well.
I Emulate as well.
You have to listen for a voicewhen you're making a change.
Now, jeff I share this becauseI read it You had been working
for Chick-fil-A and you didn'tmake a change like said okay,
i'm going to go for another andwork for another restaurant,
change in a higher role or achange like that.
(15:48):
You changed, let's say, the wordindustries.
You changed basically yourcalling.
I love how you define a callingin the book that says when your
heart and soul say yes and yourhead says huh.
I find that to be amusing and,again, absolutely challenging.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat story and again how you
(16:10):
recognized that that was whatyou're supposed to do.
Maybe it's the Nebraska story,maybe something different.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I'll say this as well Your mind is it the only one
that says huh?
your parents do, your in-lawsdo, your friends do Wait, wait,
wait.
You're leaving a multi-billiondollar company to go out and
start a church where thepreacher is going to be on video
.
This makes absolutely no sense.
That's they were right.
It didn't make any sense.
And yet we still knew that thiswas the vision that we saw was,
(16:39):
if we don't go after this andit works whenever we drive by
this church building, we willalways regret, because we could
have looked at that and said wecould have been a part of that,
but we were too scared And Ijust and at that point again, i
mentioned this earlier, john, idon't like the word ruined, but
Chick-fil-A was kind of ruinedfor me at that point, because I
(17:00):
knew I'm so intrigued by this,this church, that we were going
to launch.
I'm a preacher's kid.
I promised myself I would never, ever, work at a church.
I worked in a church for 17years.
So if your listeners don't getout, get anything out of what I
say today, just they might wantto write.
I'll never say you're nevergoing to do so And but it was
just an incredible.
(17:20):
It was an incredible ride And,but it matched up with my
giftings, it matched up with myskills, it matched up with what
Wendy and I were being led to,and and I got a green light from
all of my mentors in my life,including my in-laws and my
parents.
But I'll say this when I leftChick-fil-A, because everybody,
(17:44):
you know, looking back now,buckhead Church is, you know,
just.
It's been an.
It was an incredible story tobe a part of.
So from now looking back, itmakes like perfect sense.
But then it didn't And I wasn't.
People ask me how did you knowthat Buckhead Church was going
to work?
I didn't.
So this is why I needed toleave Chick-fil-A really, really
well, and I wrote the everybodyon the executive committee and
(18:08):
everyone in the marketingdepartment, which collected like
70 people.
I all wrote them a note andthanking them.
I didn't say this in the note,john, but basically I said if
the church doesn't work out, canI come back here and work Right
?
So and I think this is aprinciple that we often miss is
how you leave your currentseason, is how you begin your
(18:29):
next season, and I just wantedto leave Chick-fil-A exceedingly
well.
I want to leave every time Iwant to leave as well as I
possibly can, and so I had donethe due diligence for three
years when this idea of a churchplant began to surface in my
heart and Wendy's heart.
It wasn't like I had this ideaon a Friday and reside on a
Monday and started on Wednesday.
(18:50):
This is a three year process ofgetting involved, understanding
what my gift mix was.
What were they looking for?
How is this going to work?
But still, there was drivingaway from Chick-fil-A.
I mean I can see the Larry Birdfigure on your desk there They
gave me.
And my last day at Chick-fil-Athey gave me an autograph Larry
(19:11):
Bird jersey as a thank you gift.
And I'm driving away with thatin the back of my car thinking
this is the dumbest thing I'veever done, because Chick-fil-A's
retention rate is 98% at thecorporate staff And I'm one of
the crazy 2%.
So but again, there's always apart of the risk.
(19:31):
But we wanted to shrink therisk as much as we could And if
it didn't work out, we could atleast say you know what?
we gave it a shot, it was worthit And we'll figure something
out.
But fortunately.
Fortunately, it worked outreally well.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I smile so much.
I mean again, i don't.
I don't even want to talk aboutmy stories in terms of when I
left Rona for June the firsttime and I had young children
three and one and we took mymother-in-law and father-in-law
to lunch And we hadn't, we'djust barely ordered our lunch
and my wife says well, we'releaving and moving to Indiana.
Her mom goes check And I don'tthink she talked to me for two
years but she got it.
And then, five years later, icame back you don't burn that
(20:06):
bridge And we actually went intobusiness together.
My mother-in-law and I wentinto business together in real
estate.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
She did start to talk to me again in terms of how
that works.
But in terms of leaving, youtouched on that.
I mean and you touched on thisin several things in the book
You don't burn bridges as youleave, because that opportunity
may come back to you in terms of, again, i left an organization
at the top.
They came back to me threetimes And I said no three times.
(20:31):
When they come back And I'mstill good friends with the CEO,
with the retired CEO now, who'sstill my mentor.
So all those stories too muchabout me You talk about in the
book, when you do leave, don'tlinger too long when you leave.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat as well.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
All right, this was great feedback when I because,
when I left Buckhead Church tohelp start another church and
that's really where the fouridea was born in Gwinnett County
, which is a county north ofAtlanta, it's the largest county
in Georgia And that's when fourGwinnett was kind of sparked
and born and then other churchesstarted emulating that around
the country, which is fun to see.
(21:10):
But when I left Buckhead andwhen I left Gwinnett, i just I
was reminded by a mentor whenyou leave, leave, don't linger
and give the next leader space,because they may and they will
change things, you know, and sodon't be lingering around where
people can come up to you and goHey, what's going on?
I don't like this.
Gosh, we really wish you werestill here.
(21:30):
All that kind of stuff thathappens when, when former
leaders kind of still lingeraround too much, and so we, we
left, which is hard becauseyou're leaving not just your job
, you're leaving your community,you're leaving the people.
In this case I hired everyoneat the two Gwinnett's locations.
But in honor and respect to thenew leaders, you need to leave.
(21:53):
And I see sometimes and again,every situation is unique and
different.
Sometimes I see leaders,especially founders they quote
unquote leave and then they takeus kind of a side job And I
don't know about that And again,it can work, but I just wonder
how the leader who's having totake over for that leader feels.
(22:13):
So I, just for me, i just feltlike I'm going to, you know, i'm
going to leave, really, reallywell, and there's another
principle I put in the book thatI think it's helpful to note is
that how you leave anorganization is one thing, how
the organization leaves you isthe other, and you don't have
control over that.
So, take the high road, but youknow, if they're not treating
(22:33):
you well, you can, you know,still be respectful and silent
and move on, but how you leaveis in your area of
responsibility.
Yeah, control absolutely, butwe never.
I don't know why we don't talkabout leaving well that much in
leadership circles because wethink it's like a two week
(22:54):
notice.
It's not Every day.
You're one step closer toleaving, wherever you are.
And just, and it's an emotionalbattle I was with this morning,
i had breakfast with agentleman who's the president of
a multi-billion dollar companyand he's retiring at the end of
the year, and we talked moreabout the emotional part of that
(23:16):
for him versus what is he goingto do.
He's going to be fine, but it'sreally the battle for him is
going to be the emotional one,because people have to move on.
This is a high-pacedorganization and people that he
hears from right now every day.
It'll go from every day tothree days, to one week, to two
weeks, to three months, to notseeing them for six months, to
(23:37):
maybe never seeing them again.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
So, and that's just the part of organizational life
that you have to deal with- Ithink you're exactly right And I
think that doesn't necessarilyimpact the legacy that you leave
as well.
I mean, I think that's stillthere, but it is a situation you
got to let the next leader bethe next leader as well, and
when you're leaving that andfind that opportunity.
And if you take, you know, theadvice that's in your book in
(24:00):
terms of leaving well and someof the things you do, the story
that you talked about how youmet with the team and made sure
everything was going to work outover the last period of time
that absolutely is so good.
It's something I always say.
How are you going to make sureyou finish well?
There's no doubt about that.
Hey, let me ask you this funquestion, a little bit outside
the book, maybe a little bit init.
So I have a 23-year-old whowent into the youth ministry.
(24:20):
He said he wants to plantchurches.
It's like where he is right nowAnd you talk about in the book.
Why would we ask an 18-year-oldto make a decision on where
they're going to be in life fouryears out and what they're
going to study and things likethat?
And you were going through thatAnd I remember you know he
talked about when he turned 20,going into ministry, me being
the fine dad that I was.
(24:41):
I'm like, okay, what are yougoing to study?
so that I know they won't makeany money in ministry, so you
got to have some other gig goingon.
Maybe you should study historyand be a lawyer, so that you can
also be administered at thesame time.
And he went into the youthministry.
What do you have to tell him?
Let me be.
You know, joseph, when he wantsto plant a church, what do you
have to tell him?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So your 20s are your opportunity to discover what
you're really good at, what yourskill set And, yeah, what
you're passionate about.
but sometimes what you'repassionate about, that's not
necessarily your pathway.
And I mean, you can bepassionate about country music,
but you can't go into countrymusic if you can't sing right.
(25:23):
So I think, understanding whatare you good at And where are
your skills helping solve aproblem for organizations.
And I think sometimes we'vetalked about ideas, but really
what I was trained on,especially at Chick-fil-A, my
marketing mentor said, hey, aproblem well-defined is half
(25:45):
solved.
Don't fall in love with theidea.
Fall in love with the problemand then figure out.
The idea will come.
And so in your 20s, what's yourskill set?
Where do you go to try as muchstuff as you possibly can in
terms of the work that's beforeyou and then figure out where is
(26:06):
that helping you solve theproblem?
So in youth ministry, okay,well, we all know that youth are
really struggling with anxietyand depression at alarming rates
.
Okay, so what can you do in achurch setting to help solve
that in your community?
Get to know the students inyour community.
And how are you a goodcommunicator?
(26:26):
Are you a good leader?
Are you a good strategist?
Are you a good event planner?
Try it all out.
And early in my 20s I worked inmarketing for the Atlanta Braves
and discovered there are somethings that I was terrible at.
They had to be selling programads without a call.
Like Coca-Cola, would you liketo buy an ad in the Braves
program.
I was horrible at it.
My palms would sweat, i wouldstutter.
They couldn't understand what Iwas saying.
(26:47):
So I came home and told my dadI'm just terrible at this.
And my dad said that's goodnews.
But how is that good news?
He goes you've discoveredsomething that you're not good
at.
But I know there's things thatyou're doing that you are good
at.
What is it?
Well, i'm pretty good atwriting and coming up with ideas
and working with corporatesponsors.
When we do like Coca-Cola BatNight or something, Hellment
(27:08):
Night.
And he goes okay, that's payattention to that.
I just I feel like we do peoplein their 20s like you're
starting to service when we handthem a piece of paper with
boxes on them and say check one,and to let us know what you're
going to do for the rest of yourlife.
I just don't think that's thereality of how any of us figured
this out.
It's why people change theirmajor in college two or three
times And even when they do getout, they're still trying to
(27:29):
figure out what to do next.
So it's a journey, and sothat's, and that's what.
My daughter's a year out ofcollege and she's helping launch
a church and it's beenincredible.
There's been things she'sdiscovered.
She's great at some things thatshe doesn't like doing.
All that's the learning process, especially in your 20s.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Love it, jeff.
I appreciate you sharing thatAbsolutely Well, jeff, i
certainly.
I know you've done a lot ofthese podcasts after the book
launch and getting this thingready to go.
I am curious.
just really.
two more questions from mebecause I want to honor your
time.
You've been so gracious withyour time, but what?
what question has nobody askedyou that you wish somebody would
(28:08):
have asked you about the book,and I don't know if that's a
fair question or not, but as youthink about that like I just
wish they'd ask me this question.
They never do.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I think what, what did you take out of the book
that you know, because I've had,i had friends, you know, read
it.
They read, you know, fullversion And and, and I think you
know it's good, because part ofthis for me was therapeutic,
and writing it because I, iwrote it the month after we had
(28:40):
left.
That's when I started Well, no,it was a little longer than
that, so but when I started it,you know, we're still kind of in
the grief process of all that,and so I think this was a, this
was a good form of counselingfor me, and because part of it,
part of what to do next, i wouldsay the largest part of what to
(29:02):
do next.
But let me say this if you'vebeen somewhere and you gave your
heart and soul and you gave itall, and then you wake up one
day, like I did, and you're notthere anymore and I wasn't
moving toward one job to thenext, i was moving from a job to
an idea, and banks don'tdeposit ideas.
(29:22):
I've checked, i've asked them.
They've said no, so where isthis money gonna come from, and
all of that.
And so I think, just the whatdid you decide to take out?
What did you decide?
Because I didn't want this tobe too.
There's a whole chapter aboutgrief And I write in the chapter
(29:44):
.
I know you didn't get this bookto talk about grief, but I, it
was a part of my story.
But I hired a transitionconsultant And I was processing
this with him.
He goes Jeff, this is what I dofor a living.
You're not some odd person thatis at a great day and at a bad
day and you're trying to figurethis out.
This is actually what I do fora living.
(30:05):
And what people what keeps meand my employees people are
going through career transitionsgoing?
how do I figure this out?
And so no one's really asked mewhat.
What is out of the book?
So maybe that's the sequel ofthe book, what I took out.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Okay, okay.
Well, i know you got anotherone coming and I want to ask you
to reveal it, because you saidat the very end you got a third
one brewing, so maybe that'spart of it.
But, look, I appreciate youbeing so honest And I do always
have my guests.
Maybe it gives you anopportunity to say this at the
end as well.
But each, each of the guests onthe podcast, I ask them.
I give them a billboard.
So I'm gonna give you abillboard in Atlanta, Goodness
gracious, Maybe right outsidethe airport, the busiest airport
(30:42):
in the world And everybody sitsin traffic so they can watch it
anyway.
But I give you that billboardand you can write anything on
that billboard that you want.
What are you gonna write onthat billboard and why are you
gonna put that on there?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I've actually done this And I've put eat more
chicken And that was one time up.
Then I put hashtag for going atanother billboard.
So I've kind of done thisbefore.
But I know that's not whatyou're asking, john, but it's
gotta be just two or three wordsfor my marketing background.
So I would say the two words Iwould put would be practice,
humility, practice humility.
(31:16):
No one wants to follow anarrogant leader, but I was with
an organization recently.
One of their values that theyshowed me was we are humble.
And I said I don't like thatAnd I thought you wanted us to
be humble.
Everybody wants you to behumble, but we are humble is
saying you know what one of thebest thing about us is?
We're our humility.
(31:37):
We are so humble.
We are humble.
That's who we are.
Humility is not a noun, humilityis a verb, and so I can't come
to work every day and go.
I am humble.
What I need to do is ask thequestion will I practice
humility today And will I takethe low place?
When I come into a conferenceroom, will I look for the top
(31:58):
seat or will I look for the seatof least significance and push
everybody forward?
And my first business mentorsaid there's not a limit to what
a person can do when he or shedoesn't care who gets the credit
, and so he was teaching meabout practicing humility.
And it's just a.
It's a, it's a character checkAnd people want to follow humble
(32:23):
, humble leaders.
People want to follow leaderswho are practicing humility.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Absolutely, jeff.
That doesn't need anything elsefrom me.
All I have to say is Iappreciate you investing the
time with our listeners herewith me, and taking that chance
with me when I ask big and askyou to be on the podcast.
I certainly appreciate youtaking that opportunity And I
will be sure to continue to giftwhat to do next And what are
(32:51):
you for To many people who aregrowing.
So thank you again for being onthe show.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Thanks, john, i appreciate your support means a
lot And we'll see you soon,hopefully somewhere down the
road.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Alrighty, well, that's all for today's episode
of the uncommon leader podcast.
Thanks for listening in.
Please take just a minute toshare this podcast with that
someone you know that youthought of when you heard this
episode.
One of the most valuable thingsyou can do is to rate the
podcast and lead a review.
You can do that on Applepodcast or you can rate the
(33:21):
podcast on Spotify or any otherplatform you listen.
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