October 28, 2025 • 31 mins
In this brand-new episode of the Uncommon Leader Podcast, John Gallagher Jr. sits down with Steven Gaffney to explore the mindset shift that separates high-performing teams from high-achieving ones.
John shares how leaders must evolve—not just change—to meet the demands of today’s chaotic world. From creating safe spaces for feedback to mastering mood discipline and honest communication, this episode is packed with practical strategies and personal stories that will challenge and inspire leaders of leaders.
Key takeaways include:
Why achievement matters more than effort
The power of evolving beyond complacency
How to get the unsaid, said
Creating feedback-rich environments
Leading with Unconditional Power
Whether you’re coaching teams, leading organizations, or growing champions, this episode will help you shift from performance to impact.
🎧 Listen now and share with a leader who needs this message.
📘 Learn more at coachjohngallagher.com
📲 Connect with John on LinkedIn: @CoachJohnGallagher
📘 Learn more about Steven Gaffney:
🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevengaffneycompany/
🌐 Website: https://stevengaffney.com/
📺 YouTube: @stevengaffneycompany
#UncommonLeader #LeadershipDevelopment #ExecutiveWisdom #UnconditionalPower #HighAchievingTeams #FaithDrivenLeadership #Teamwork #MindsetMatters #GrowingChampions
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Don't use the word change, use the word evolved.
(00:02):
If you tell you to changesomething, somebody goes, well,
what's wrong with the way we'vedone it before?
But if you say evolved, who candisagree with that?
There is no such thing as statusquo.
SPEAKER_00 (00:21):
Hey Uncommon Leaders, welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
I'm your host, John Gallagher,and have I got a fabulous guest
for you today.
Have you ever had a challengeworking with your teams and
understanding if they'reachieving what you need them to
do and some of the challengesthey're running into?
Not accepting, not looking forthe opportunities that they
really have and growing in theareas that they need to.
(00:43):
Our guest today, Steve Gaffney,has written the book on
unconditional power, and he'sgoing to talk about that today
and ultimately have a chance totell us some of the things that
he's worked on over the years tohelp teams be more performing
versus achieving in that.
And we'll talk about thatdefinition.
But Steve, welcome to theUncommon Leader Podcast.
(01:04):
How are you doing today?
Good.
Thanks for having me on.
Absolutely.
I I know we had a chance toreally chat as we get started
here with some of the thingsthat the listeners are going to
be ready for, and I know they'regoing to find a good deal of
value in it today.
Let's start right off the bat,though, right with unconditional
power and ultimately how youdelineate between performing
teams and achieving teams.
(01:24):
What is the difference and helpour listeners understand what
they should be looking for?
SPEAKER_01 (01:28):
Well, I'm a big fan of making distinctions that are
important, people often don'tthink about.
And so everybody talks abouthigh-performing teams, but I
think in today's work world,it's not good enough.
It's about high achieving teams,and really our framework is
consistently high achievingteams.
But here's the key differencethe word performing can be
confused with hard work versusachieving is about results.
(01:50):
And we're all paid to produceresults, not necessarily work
hard.
Some people might say, okay, Ikind of get it, but think about
it this way (01:56):
as leaders, sometimes you might push on
somebody to change and they andthey often may respond with,
Well, what do you want me to do?
I'm working hard.
And of course, we're notchallenging somebody's work
ethic.
That's not the problem.
It's about producing results.
And in today's world wherethere's a lot of chaos,
disruption, all kinds of things,it is about making those changes
(02:17):
because it's all about producingresults.
So achievement, results,performance, hard work, and it's
really about what is it going totake to achieve those outcomes
and results.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
I love that.
I've heard before, oftentimesdon't mistake activity with
results.
And so if we're able to coachindividuals not just to change
the behaviors that they need to,but to your point, achieve the
results that are expected insideof the organization, it frankly
is a little bit of a double win.
And I like that in terms ofunderstanding that it's not
about working hard.
(02:46):
It's not about working smartereither.
It's about understanding whatyou need to do to achieve the
results that you're heldaccountable for.
And leaders, they know this.
I mean, they're going to be heldaccountable for the performance
and achievement of those whoreport to them as well.
So they better be achievers aswell that are leading those
groups.
Steve, I know that this is goahead.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
Yeah, I know I'm interrupting, but there's
something also that's pertinentabout this, is there's a lot of
things that are going on.
And sometimes people might say,but I have achieved.
And my and our comeback is, yes,but we have to change as an
organization.
We have to evolve.
In fact, I can give peopleanother tip.
Don't use the word change, usethe word evolve.
If you say I'm going to changesomething, somebody goes, Well,
(03:28):
what's wrong with the way we'vedone it before?
But if you say evolve, who candisagree with that?
It's about, you know, if we'renot progressing in life or
regressing, there is no suchthing as status quo.
So a different frame is aboutevolving, but it still comes
down to, yeah, it was achieving,but now we have to achieve
different things.
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
Steve, you touched on something that I've really
been, you know, I'll use a termstruggling with myself at times
inside of that evolving, is thatnatural inclination that we as
human beings have to just sayit's good enough.
And ultimately, we know thatthat results in complacency and
we get stagnant.
But that that word evolveabsolutely, to me, indicates a
(04:08):
continuous improvement typemindset that I'm always looking
to get a little bit better.
I have this healthy discontent,if you will, for the status quo
and where I am today.
And as leaders, we know that ifwe rest on our successes of the
past, uh we're gonna be in we'regonna be in a world of hurt
going forward.
Steve, you've spent yearsdeveloping this.
You've written, I think thenumber was six different books,
(04:29):
and you've got two or three morein the mix that are coming out.
And this, you know, has evolvedfor you over the course of
lifetime.
One of the questions I alwaysask, especially first-time
guests, is going back into theirchildhood and how they really
got kind of started.
So I'd like you to tell ourlisteners to what's a story from
your childhood that stillimpacts who you are today as a
(04:51):
person or as a leader?
SPEAKER_01 (04:52):
Great question.
When I think back to mychildhood, I don't know how if
it impacts me today or it's I'veevolved.
And so, but I can look at thatas the root cause.
And here's where I'm headed withthis.
I didn't start speaking until Iwas three and a half.
It was things were off.
I mean, I could speak, but thewords weren't coming out
correctly.
So my uh parents took me to adoctor, and uh, actually, this
(05:14):
isn't politically correct, butit's what happened.
And the doctor said, Oh, yourkid's mentally retarded.
Back then, that's what theysaid.
Again, not politically correct,but it is what it is.
That's what the doctor said.
My mom decided to get a secondopinion because my grandmother
was a teacher and said, Hey,we've got to get a second
opinion.
There's more to that story, butin essence, um, it turns out my
ears were blocked, and so out ofinfections and whatnot.
(05:36):
So that got corrected.
But then as a result, I had togo through some speech therapy
and I went to Easter Seals.
Some people are familiar withthat organization.
And the reason why that impactedme was because at that age, I
decided that I was just stupid,you know.
Not that anybody told me that,my parents never did, but I, you
know, I was like, look at whatI'm doing, you know, and it kind
(05:58):
of just it impacted me.
So what I ended up doing wasworking extra hard.
And I did really well in school,but it's because I worked
really, really hard at it.
But here's what's reallyinteresting about today the
audience I address arescientists, engineers, technical
folks, a lot of people whodon't, you know, communications
kind of touchy feeling, theydon't like that.
(06:18):
But I can immediately identifywith that audience with the kind
of awkwardness or if you'refeeling like you're not
connecting, because out of thatearly experience, that actually
shaped me.
And also it was hard for me tomake friends and stuff like
that.
And I'm saying this, not oh,feel sorry for me, but I'm
definitely a product of thisindustry.
So personal development, I it'simpacted me.
(06:40):
And a lot of the strategies I'veused was or developed was
because I wanted to figure out astrategy that I could that I
could do.
So it's all about buildingteamwork and whatnot.
But anyway, that's the rootcause back wave back then.
SPEAKER_00 (06:53):
Well, and I love that again.
Again, we talked about thatbefore we hit the record button,
is that oftentimes we are mostwe're best positioned to help
the person that we once were,right?
And those are things, those arestories that exist, whether
again, politically correct.
They didn't know what that meantuh when we were kids in terms of
understanding that, butultimately recognizing that you
know you had to overcomesomething pretty significant,
(07:15):
uh, not just physically, butalso, frankly, probably
emotionally as well, as you uhgrew up through that, that
impacted you, that through yourstory, you're able to help
others deal with many of thosedifferent things.
I think that's what really makesit powerful in our world in
terms of coaching andconsulting, is helping that get
through there.
So, Steve, the latest book youhad come out, Unconditional
Power, a formula for thriving inany situation, no matter how
(07:38):
frustrating, complex, andunpredictable.
Why did you write that book now?
And uh, who did you write itfor?
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
Well, I wrote it starting for me.
Remember, I was just sayingabout I developed a lot of
strategies around but firstusing it on myself and realizing
that probably other people feelhave dealt with this.
And so here's the whole point ofthe book.
The point is about when we're ina good mood, we're smarter,
right?
And so how do we make ourselvesin a good mood?
Well, I've suffered from moods.
(08:06):
I wasn't like, you know,clinically depressed, but I I
would get triggered and I wouldget down.
And I noticed that, you know, itwould take me a little bit of
time, sometimes a few days onsomething bouncing back or
whatever, various times.
But there's some people theybounce back like that.
I don't know if you have one ofthose friends, but I do, like
Willie Jolly, he's a reallygreat motivational speaker.
He's always authentically in agood mood.
(08:28):
Things happen, but he bouncesright back.
So I started to study what is itabout some people that can
bounce right back and otherpeople that can't, and then
what's the difference?
And then as leaders, because wehave to make sure everybody else
is in a good mood, and I'm nottalking about, you know, again,
touchy-feely way.
I'm just morale, you know,thinking positively, moving
(08:49):
forward.
What do we actually do?
And so I studied and came upwith nine strategies that are in
the book, and all thosestrategies I can tell you that
work because I use it on me.
And here's an exampleintentional disruption.
We all get down in life.
But the question you want to askyourself is what would you
suggest?
That's you could ask it ofothers and yourself.
All right, stuff happens.
(09:10):
What are we gonna do about it?
You know, when I went throughcancer, okay, I can't change
that I had cancer, but I couldchange on how I responded to the
cancer.
So I'm fine now, but you know,going through recession, all
kinds of stuff.
We're all faced with challenges,but are we wallowing in the
negativity or the challenge?
Are we looking for theopportunity?
And so that's an example ofintentional disruption, which is
(09:32):
one of the strategies in thebook.
SPEAKER_00 (09:33):
You I love that.
And I wanted to touch on thosestrategies.
Even before that, though, I wantto talk about because I mood
discipline in terms of what youhave.
You've got this power continuumthat you developed.
But you know, this the threesteps that you that you talk
about, you feel powerless, it'sconditional, or you feel
powerful when you move to theleft or right in terms of that
space.
How do you help leadersrecognize first what's getting
(09:57):
in their way when it comes totheir mood?
SPEAKER_01 (09:58):
Well, we have to recognize about these three
moods.
So let me kind of back upbecause you, as you touched upon
it, which is so critical.
The framework of the book isthat I've identified three
overarching moods.
The first type of mood, whichwe've all been in, we can
self-identify, is feelingpowerless, right?
Something happens, and powerlessis where we say to ourselves,
what difference can I make?
I'm only one person.
(10:19):
Even as leaders, I've workedwith a lot of CEOs, admirals,
and generals, and at times itcan feel very lonely.
And it's like, well, yeah, Ineed to change all of the
organization, but I'm only oneperson.
Or somebody is maybe not theleader.
And then again, you know, whatcan I do?
I'm only one person, or oneperson in my marriage, or, you
know, one person in a with afriendship or whatever, you
(10:40):
know, feeling powerless.
The second type of mood isconditionally powerful.
That's where we recognize wehave power, but it's conditional
on other people, things, items.
An example would be when peoplesay, I can do that as long as
that other departmentcooperates.
I can do this as long as I havethe right talent.
You know, John, I can do that aslong as we have the right
(11:02):
funding, as long as we have theright leadership, as long as we
have the right marketing.
That doesn't sound that bad, butreally what I'm doing is I'm
creating an excuse.
Although those conditions arelegitimate, I'm giving away my
power.
But the desirable move is thethird one.
And that's where I realize thatgreat leaders are
unconditionally powerful.
What I mean by unconditionallypowerful is they recognize those
(11:24):
conditions, but they spend ahundred percent of their energy
on what they're going to doabout it.
So if the market's down, if themarket's up, if you know, if
we're growth, what do we do?
You know, focusing on what we'regonna do.
You lose a customer, spending100% of your energy on what
you're gonna do about it ratherthan oh, I can't believe this
happened to me, and wallowing inagain the the problem.
(11:45):
So the desirable mood isunconditionally powerful.
And that's what we want to do ishave ourselves and others get to
that space.
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Steven, I love that.
And you know, as you talkedabout that, I I was talking back
to the story that you sharedinside of the book as well and
the the cancer diagnosis thatyou went through, you know,
several years ago.
My guess is you went through allthese moods when that happened
as well.
Was that something that occurredfor you?
SPEAKER_01 (12:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
In fact, my clients and a lot ofpeople who have read the book
and and people where I've taughtthis say what they appreciated
about this distinction is youcan self-identify.
That a lot of distinctions, itkind of makes us feel awful to
identify with that.
An example would be victim,right?
There's all this victim stuff.
Well, people say I'm not avictim, I am, whatever, but you
can identify, we can allidentify, and me too, which is
(12:33):
feeling powerless at times.
There's no value judgment.
I have felt powerless.
We do feel powerless.
Other times we do feelconditionally powerful, right?
Um well, I gotta accomplishthese goals, but I sure hope I
have the right talent or I hopeI have the right people around
me, or I hope that uh thatcustomer says yes on that big uh
that big proposal.
(12:53):
So those are, but the desirablemood is to be unconditionally
powerful.
And so when I say the desirable,it we can identify, but the
question is then what's it goingto take?
Because really, when youidentify, no one wants to feel
powerless.
We often reluctantly feelresigned to feel that way.
So the neat thing that peoplehave said about the book, among
(13:13):
many, many things, but is youcan I self-identify and then you
see what to do to get yourselfin an unconditionally powerful
state.
SPEAKER_00 (13:20):
When you think about that, and you mentioned through
the book many different stories,you protect uh the names of
those individuals.
But do you have one?
And we'll talk about yourstrategy, a couple of your
strategies here in a little bitas well, but a specific story
with a client uh where you'remost proud of that you've worked
with over time as well, who'smade that transition from you
know powerless tounconditionally powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (13:41):
Well, I'll give you an example.
So there's I have a client, Imean, there's many, many
clients.
In fact, I was just on a callthis morning on a coaching call
around helping leader change thewhole mindset of her department.
But an example of a client thatuh we have among many is where
they actually took that.
Remember I was saying aboutperformance and achievement?
First, they took that wholesimple distinction and they
(14:03):
said, we're gonna stop doingabout performance, we're gonna
do about achievement.
And I'll come back to thepowerless in a moment and
powerful.
Uh but what they ended up doing,really interesting, is they
said, Are we performing orachieving?
And so they looked at theirentire bureaucracy and cut out
all the stuff that wasperformance.
Instead of performance reviews,why not do achieving reviews?
You know, and things like that,a different focus.
(14:25):
And then they also took thisdistinction and they went
throughout the entireorganization, they made it
mandatory reading for variousleaders, and they actually use
this terminology, and so they'revery sensitive to conditional
mindset so that they can move tounconditionally powerful.
Because here's the thing thatpeople have said when you become
aware of these distinctions, youyou're able to help out other
(14:49):
people.
A lot of times people feelconditionally, but they've never
identified it that way.
So they just kind of live inthis conditional world, but
they're thinking they'repowerful.
But when we see there's likethis third dimension,
unconditionally powerful, wemove in that way.
So, right now, that clientconstantly reminds their entire
workforce on that.
And there's going through a lotof changes as well.
(15:10):
But that's an example.
I mean, there's many, many timesI was with an organization last
week and changing the team frombeing kind of conditional to
unconditional, powerful.
But anyway, I don't know ifthat's I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (15:20):
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Now, let's get back to theepisode.
That was one of the strategiesthat I want to talk about too
(16:03):
was the awareness.
And you have that as the firststrategy.
You've got to be aware of themood, if you will, that you're
in if you get started.
How have you helped others beaware of that?
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
By by learning these three different moods.
So, for example, I, you know,when I was starting to create
this stuff and studying people,right?
Everybody said, you know, somepeople feel powerful, motivated,
but I was like, what is it?
And then I started to identifywith that, and I could identify
with that.
And so then you so bringingawareness.
So one of the strategies in thebook is make the unaware aware.
(16:36):
And making the unaware aware isletting your entire organization
be aware of it.
So here's an example of what Imean.
I had a client who took thatdistinction, and people came
into his office and werecomplaining about an operational
problem.
And he said, Okay, where are weat on this continuum?
He just asked it.
And people said, Oh, we're beingconditional.
And then all he said was, Howwould we approach this problem
(16:59):
if we're being unconditionallypowerful?
And he facilitated aconversation.
He said, actually, within aboutfive, 10 minutes, they had come
up with solutions and the teammoved out.
He didn't give them thesolution.
He just reminded them andbrought awareness around that
distinction.
So that would be an example.
SPEAKER_00 (17:15):
No, and I love that as an example because many times
it's the unrealized potentialthat exists inside of an
individual that they just can'tsee.
Right.
And to be to your point, theyhand over their power, if you
will, to some condition thatexists.
Well, I'll never be able to dothat because of X, or I'll never
be able to, and it's thoselimiting beliefs that exist
inside of their space.
(17:36):
And to your point, I I believeone of the most uh advantageous
uh skills that a leader has isthe ability to help someone
realize the gap between you knowwhere they are and where they
could be, where their potentialreally identifies where they
could be.
So to help them become aware ofit and then only ask them a
question where they get to theanswer, if you will, uh on their
(17:58):
own is pretty powerful.
And if you're able to do that,Steve, that's that's really uh
says a bunch for your leadershipskills as well.
SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
Well, I was you're saying such an important point
is to having the conversation,talking to them and helping them
see the potential.
And that really comes down tothe a reminder I've found over
the years is the biggest problemin the workplace and in teams
and organizations is lack ofhonest communication.
And what I mean by that is notabout the ethics, but it's about
what people don't say to eachother.
(18:26):
People don't give that feedback,they or they bring people down,
they just tell people what theycan't do or the problem, but
they don't say, I see so muchpotential in you, or whatever it
is.
But getting that unsaid said,like here's an interesting
frame.
Have a really up or I found overthe years is have a really blunt
but caring conversation.
(18:46):
Give that person feedback andthen say to them, uh, look, I
know you can do this.
I believe in you.
Somebody said years ago, letother people borrow your eyes
until they can see it forthemselves.
Let other people borrow youreyes until they can see it for
themselves.
And I love that because greatlead, that's the vision.
So saying to somebody, Well, Idon't know I could do that, is
you say to that person, you'replaying small.
(19:09):
I believe in you and I know youcan do it.
And I'm not gonna let up untilyou see that greatness because
it benefits us all.
That's having the toughconversation, but leaving them
in an optimistic, motivatedfashion.
SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
Steve, you touched on, I mean, the blunt but caring
conversation, you know, thedefinition of candor, if you
will.
Uh and you like to use two bytwo frameworks in your book, and
we'll talk about those anotherone here at energy, but that
blunt but caring is the two bytwo framework.
If you only deliver thatfeedback bluntly without caring,
(19:41):
you're gonna be seen as a bully.
Okay, there's no doubt about it.
You're gonna you're gonna be putinto a spot where like, what is
in the world?
But if you only deliver caringfeedback, being nice to them
without being blunt, pointingout what you see as the gap,
that's where you really run intoa problem as well.
You're being really nice tothem, but nobody's gonna grow,
and then you're not gonna growas well because again, they're
on your team.
(20:02):
And so the leader who has theability to be both blunt but
caring, I often refer to it astruth with grace, okay, is the
one that's going to have thelargest impact.
It goes back to that performancereview that I had 20 plus years
ago that I talked to you beforewe hit the record button here
that said I had a mentor who wasgiving me blunt feedback, no
(20:25):
doubt about it, true feedback,but delivered in such a way that
I knew that he cared about me aswell.
And that put me in a positionwhere I had a choice.
I had to choose back to youreven three points.
I could remain powerless orconditional there or to take
responsibility what I wanted todo to grow.
I knew that he was going tosupport me, and that's the
leader we need to be.
Absolutely.
Something else too.
SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
It's like we need to ask people for feedback.
And that, you know, and youknow, I there's a theme I kind
of want to make sure uhhopefully it's coming across is
I teach this stuff with greatpassion because I've used the
strategies because I've messedup so many times.
I'll give you an example.
The value of asking feedback andcreating a safe space for people
to tell you the truth.
But then are we ready for it?
(21:06):
So some years ago, uh I had anemployee leave and uh who was
great.
She was an excellent EA.
And I said to her, Wow, I'msorry that you're gonna go.
And she said, Yeah, she wasgoing to get her master's.
And I said, Okay, great.
And I said, Is there any otherfeedback?
And I remember her kind ofhesitating, and then she
proceeded to tell me, and shesaid, you know, when I came to
work for you, I was veryconfident.
(21:26):
I'm now leaving the mostunconfident I've ever been in my
life.
And that crushed me.
I mean, my gosh, what was Idoing?
I started to realize I was alousy manager, and here's what I
did.
I have high expectations, andI'm very hard on myself.
So I was very critical, and Iand I'm programmed to look at
the problems, right?
And so I realized I was lousy atappreciation, lousy at saying
(21:49):
when things were going well.
And I was thinking I'm drivingher and everyone around me to
keep excelling.
But what I was really doing wasconstantly being critical,
although maybe my criticismswere correct in certain points,
it lost the whole frame and itlost proportion.
And so I changed.
And so here's the neat end tothe story.
(22:11):
She came back to work for me andshe works for me today.
She's fantastic.
Thankfully, she forgave me.
And I learned.
So we got to get that feedback.
And to your point, when youreceive that feedback, we all
grow in life, but we only growwhen we hear that tough
feedback.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
Oh, and then I mean, there's geez, we could spend a
30-minute conversation just onthat topic right there.
You've got to put people in yourlife, right, that are going to
be candid with you and give youblunt but caring feedback.
Last thing I need is, you know,people telling me how good I'm
doing ultimately and and notgive me any feedback on how I
can grow, how I can learn.
So we've got to give peoplepermission to do that, to give
(22:47):
us that feedback and create thatsafe space to your point so that
we don't respond to it.
But seek out those individualswho will give us the feedback
that we need as well.
So, so important, so important.
Like I said, I could spend Icould spend a lot of time
talking about that.
SPEAKER_01 (23:02):
And I just want to see, I know, I don't know.
We're all like feeding off eachother because this is like I I
think and I think it really isimportant.
It's the art of theconversation.
I mean that we got to rewardpeople for their feedback.
So I see this a lot whereorganizations do these employee
surveys or they get feedback andthey don't do anything with it,
or they go, Well, these are thisis what the results say.
Okay, great, but what are youdoing with that?
(23:23):
So it's so important, and itcan't take a long time.
We got to move out on it.
So you getting feedback, myselfgetting feedback.
It's one thing asking feedback,but then we got to do something
with it as we've talked about.
So I just want to remind peoplehow it's really important
because that's a great way topositively reinforce somebody
and thank them rather than justsay, thank you for sharing.
Well, that doesn't do anything.
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
Steve goes back to your power continuum, right?
I mean, are we truly giving thempower ultimately for us to do
something about?
Because I can once I get thatfeedback as well, I can
rationalize my behavior all daylong.
Well, I was like that because ofthis conditional uh type power,
right?
With regards to I, you know,they they treated me that way,
so I turned it back around.
I mean, so many different thingswe can rationalize, and we know
(24:05):
rational lies is exactly whatthey are.
But I think, you know, thosethose pictures, those small
pictures that you drew uh insidethe book, the different
frameworks are so cool.
One of the ones that caught myeyes, and I want to spend a
little time, uh put a pen in andspend some time, was the uh
energy modes that you had, thefour different energy modes, uh,
where you had someone who'spessimistic or optimistic, as
(24:25):
well as an observer and/orsomeone who's a celebrator as
well.
Tell me a little bit about howthat how that framework came
about.
I'm sure there's a story behindit as well.
SPEAKER_01 (24:34):
Well, again, you're right.
It it came out of, well, somepeople are optimistic, but
they're quietly optimistic.
Well, that doesn't necessarilyhelp out as a leader.
You have to be what we call agenerator, which we'll get to in
a moment.
So I realize that, but let mejust touch on there's a reason
why I say uh optimistic andpessimistic, draw that
distinction versus positive andnegative.
(24:55):
I I don't know about you, butfor a long time I would teach
about the value of positivethinking and and all that stuff.
I would get pushback and frompeople that say, well, uh, who's
maybe somebody negative?
Well, I'm being realistic.
And then I thought, well, youknow, they do make a good point.
They look at negative things andsomebody's positive, the
positive things.
But then so I I realize thebetter distinction is optimistic
(25:18):
and pessimistic because here'sthe difference.
An optimistic and a pessimist,the way I see this is they both
are realistic, but it's abouthow they view the outcome.
So a pessimistic person looks atthe situation and says, We're
doomed.
An optimistic person looks atthe situation and say, We got
problems, we got to work onthis, but I know we can, I know
(25:39):
there's an answer.
I know we're gonna grow from it.
It's just the way we viewthings.
Well, when you look at and studyleadership, as I know you have,
is is leaders uh that are moreoptimistic and passionate about
the future are more attractiveto work with.
I don't mean attractive in aphysical way, I mean you want to
follow that person.
So optimistic and pessimistic isimportant.
(26:00):
The other distinction on thatgrid, and then we'll put it all
together, is being uh anobserver or a generator.
So some people are observers,they sit back and read the room,
sounds good, but they're waitingfor other people.
Other people are generators.
So there are people on thepessimistic side who are uh you
could say observers.
(26:21):
They don't say aren't doomers,you know, they're not gonna be
real going down the uh badsituation unless other people
are.
But the worst people are what Icall, you know, the doomers.
Doomers are people walk in aroom and they're ready to just
say, we're messed up, it's nevergonna work.
So they seize the moment.
But the way to counteract thatis to be a booster.
(26:43):
And forget about the words.
The key is walking in asituation and before anybody
else sees the moment and say, wegot problems, but we're gonna
figure out an answer and thenget to it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
A generator who has optimism, absolutely, in terms
of making that happen.
Just love the distinctionbetween the two.
And we can, you know, SaturdayNight Live can keep playing with
the Debbie Downers and thingslike that with regards to those
who are doomers.
Uh, we don't need we don't needthem in our life, let alone in
our organizations that are thatare making change or trying to
make change.
(27:14):
Steve, I appreciate this, youknow, in terms of that book.
And I think you know, folkswould find your nine strategies
to be very powerful and thatthey should pick up a copy of
your book.
Uh we've just talked about acouple of those today, as well
as a couple of the frameworks.
What else you got going on?
What's next?
What what are you working onright now?
SPEAKER_01 (27:29):
Well, we just actually a year ago, we launched
an online system, and it's uh asfar as we know, it's the only
online system in which itteaches people how to be a
high-achieving team.
So it's a learning uh onlinesystem, but it has an AI
overlay.
So here's what I mean by that isyou just go on the system and
put in the issue, and it notonly will answer that, but it
(27:51):
actually shows which videos towatch with the team.
So it's a learning model.
It's not like just ChatGPT orAI, I'm not talking about that,
but it's able to do that.
And the reason why that'simportant is if you think about
it, there's a lot of leadershipstuff out there, there's
communication stuff out there,but there's not about how anyone
can create and sustain a greatteam.
(28:12):
And so this system is now beingused by a lot of organizations,
and we're real proud about it.
So if they want information, wecan send that to them as well.
SPEAKER_00 (28:19):
Love that.
And and Steve, I'm gonna giveyou the last word here, the last
question.
But how can folks get in touchwith you, learn more about your
online system andor uh whatyou've got going on and stay
connected with you?
SPEAKER_01 (28:29):
Thank you.
So we do a lot of you knowone-on-one and teamwork stuff.
But if they go tojustbehonest.com, so there's a
lot of ways to get to ouroverall website, and then
there's an honest communicationcalculator, a team elf
calculator.
There's a lot of stuff that theycan get on there.
That's no cost, but anyway, ifthey go to justbehonest.com,
that's justbehonest.com, andthey can get all that
(28:49):
information, then contact usfrom there.
SPEAKER_00 (28:51):
Steve will make sure to put a link to the show notes
in that, folks.
I would I would encourage you togo take a look at what he's got
going on.
I'd I'd love the theconversation about honest candor
and what that really means inthe frameworks that you talk
about.
Steve, I know that the folkshave uh found some value in
this.
I would yeah, go ahead.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (29:07):
I know I'm interrupting.
I just always like to givepeople something.
So if they if they mention yourshow and they go on our website,
justbehonest.com, and you knowthere's a way to contact us,
mention the show.
I'll I'll send them a frameworkof how to have the most
difficult conversations.
There's nine steps, and we'llsend them that framework for
free.
All they have to do is just goon there, mention the show, and
we'll send it to them.
SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
I appreciate that offer as well.
Always like free stuff in termsof getting that done.
And I know the listeners needhelp and having those types of
tough conversations.
We've been a great guest today.
I know we could keep on talkingand different topics, and I look
forward to seeing even uh you'vementioned a couple other books
coming out.
Maybe we can connect again asthose are coming out and share
some of the things inside ofthat as well.
I like to finish up my firsttime guest with one question.
(29:48):
Stephen kind of lets you havethe final word, if you will,
with regards to sending out yourmessage.
But I'm gonna give you abillboard.
You can put it anywhere you wantto.
What's the message you're gonnaput on that billboard and why do
you put that message on there?
SPEAKER_01 (29:59):
Get the on.
Said said the biggest problem inlife is not what people say,
it's what they don't say.
Not only about the difficultthings, but also about
appreciation.
People are stingy with how theyappreciate and they and they and
they often, when they don't knowwhat to say, they don't say
anything versus just saysomething and actually go ask
people, get feedback.
But it's all about getting theunsaid said.
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
Steve, I love that.
Best wishes to you goingforward.
Hey folks, the I appreciate you.
If you got to this point insidethe conversation, that's really
cool.
I encourage you to share whatyou heard because I know you've
heard something that others needto hear.
So just make a copy of this linkand send it out to get it in the
hands of more and more folks.
Also, if you get a chance toleave us a review on this
podcast episode specifically,love to share that.
(30:43):
That's how, again, we get it inthe hands on this podcast
episode specifically.
Love more and more folks.
And Steve, I just want to I wantto let you know I've enjoyed
this conversation today, and Ihope that uh everything goes
well for you in the future andlook forward to staying in
contact with you.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
Don't use the word change, use the word evolved.
(00:02):
If you tell you to changesomething, somebody goes, well,
what's wrong with the way we'vedone it before?
But if you say evolved, who candisagree with that?
There is no such thing as statusquo.
SPEAKER_00 (00:21):
Hey Uncommon Leaders, welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
I'm your host, John Gallagher,and have I got a fabulous guest
for you today.
Have you ever had a challengeworking with your teams and
understanding if they'reachieving what you need them to
do and some of the challengesthey're running into?
Not accepting, not looking forthe opportunities that they
really have and growing in theareas that they need to.
(00:43):
Our guest today, Steve Gaffney,has written the book on
unconditional power, and he'sgoing to talk about that today
and ultimately have a chance totell us some of the things that
he's worked on over the years tohelp teams be more performing
versus achieving in that.
And we'll talk about thatdefinition.
But Steve, welcome to theUncommon Leader Podcast.
(01:04):
How are you doing today?
Good.
Thanks for having me on.
Absolutely.
I I know we had a chance toreally chat as we get started
here with some of the thingsthat the listeners are going to
be ready for, and I know they'regoing to find a good deal of
value in it today.
Let's start right off the bat,though, right with unconditional
power and ultimately how youdelineate between performing
teams and achieving teams.
(01:24):
What is the difference and helpour listeners understand what
they should be looking for?
SPEAKER_01 (01:28):
Well, I'm a big fan of making distinctions that are
important, people often don'tthink about.
And so everybody talks abouthigh-performing teams, but I
think in today's work world,it's not good enough.
It's about high achieving teams,and really our framework is
consistently high achievingteams.
But here's the key differencethe word performing can be
confused with hard work versusachieving is about results.
(01:50):
And we're all paid to produceresults, not necessarily work
hard.
Some people might say, okay, Ikind of get it, but think about
it this way (01:56):
as leaders, sometimes you might push on
somebody to change and they andthey often may respond with,
Well, what do you want me to do?
I'm working hard.
And of course, we're notchallenging somebody's work
ethic.
That's not the problem.
It's about producing results.
And in today's world wherethere's a lot of chaos,
disruption, all kinds of things,it is about making those changes
(02:17):
because it's all about producingresults.
So achievement, results,performance, hard work, and it's
really about what is it going totake to achieve those outcomes
and results.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
I love that.
I've heard before, oftentimesdon't mistake activity with
results.
And so if we're able to coachindividuals not just to change
the behaviors that they need to,but to your point, achieve the
results that are expected insideof the organization, it frankly
is a little bit of a double win.
And I like that in terms ofunderstanding that it's not
about working hard.
(02:46):
It's not about working smartereither.
It's about understanding whatyou need to do to achieve the
results that you're heldaccountable for.
And leaders, they know this.
I mean, they're going to be heldaccountable for the performance
and achievement of those whoreport to them as well.
So they better be achievers aswell that are leading those
groups.
Steve, I know that this is goahead.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
Yeah, I know I'm interrupting, but there's
something also that's pertinentabout this, is there's a lot of
things that are going on.
And sometimes people might say,but I have achieved.
And my and our comeback is, yes,but we have to change as an
organization.
We have to evolve.
In fact, I can give peopleanother tip.
Don't use the word change, usethe word evolve.
If you say I'm going to changesomething, somebody goes, Well,
(03:28):
what's wrong with the way we'vedone it before?
But if you say evolve, who candisagree with that?
It's about, you know, if we'renot progressing in life or
regressing, there is no suchthing as status quo.
So a different frame is aboutevolving, but it still comes
down to, yeah, it was achieving,but now we have to achieve
different things.
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
Steve, you touched on something that I've really
been, you know, I'll use a termstruggling with myself at times
inside of that evolving, is thatnatural inclination that we as
human beings have to just sayit's good enough.
And ultimately, we know thatthat results in complacency and
we get stagnant.
But that that word evolveabsolutely, to me, indicates a
(04:08):
continuous improvement typemindset that I'm always looking
to get a little bit better.
I have this healthy discontent,if you will, for the status quo
and where I am today.
And as leaders, we know that ifwe rest on our successes of the
past, uh we're gonna be in we'regonna be in a world of hurt
going forward.
Steve, you've spent yearsdeveloping this.
You've written, I think thenumber was six different books,
(04:29):
and you've got two or three morein the mix that are coming out.
And this, you know, has evolvedfor you over the course of
lifetime.
One of the questions I alwaysask, especially first-time
guests, is going back into theirchildhood and how they really
got kind of started.
So I'd like you to tell ourlisteners to what's a story from
your childhood that stillimpacts who you are today as a
(04:51):
person or as a leader?
SPEAKER_01 (04:52):
Great question.
When I think back to mychildhood, I don't know how if
it impacts me today or it's I'veevolved.
And so, but I can look at thatas the root cause.
And here's where I'm headed withthis.
I didn't start speaking until Iwas three and a half.
It was things were off.
I mean, I could speak, but thewords weren't coming out
correctly.
So my uh parents took me to adoctor, and uh, actually, this
(05:14):
isn't politically correct, butit's what happened.
And the doctor said, Oh, yourkid's mentally retarded.
Back then, that's what theysaid.
Again, not politically correct,but it is what it is.
That's what the doctor said.
My mom decided to get a secondopinion because my grandmother
was a teacher and said, Hey,we've got to get a second
opinion.
There's more to that story, butin essence, um, it turns out my
ears were blocked, and so out ofinfections and whatnot.
(05:36):
So that got corrected.
But then as a result, I had togo through some speech therapy
and I went to Easter Seals.
Some people are familiar withthat organization.
And the reason why that impactedme was because at that age, I
decided that I was just stupid,you know.
Not that anybody told me that,my parents never did, but I, you
know, I was like, look at whatI'm doing, you know, and it kind
(05:58):
of just it impacted me.
So what I ended up doing wasworking extra hard.
And I did really well in school,but it's because I worked
really, really hard at it.
But here's what's reallyinteresting about today the
audience I address arescientists, engineers, technical
folks, a lot of people whodon't, you know, communications
kind of touchy feeling, theydon't like that.
(06:18):
But I can immediately identifywith that audience with the kind
of awkwardness or if you'refeeling like you're not
connecting, because out of thatearly experience, that actually
shaped me.
And also it was hard for me tomake friends and stuff like
that.
And I'm saying this, not oh,feel sorry for me, but I'm
definitely a product of thisindustry.
So personal development, I it'simpacted me.
(06:40):
And a lot of the strategies I'veused was or developed was
because I wanted to figure out astrategy that I could that I
could do.
So it's all about buildingteamwork and whatnot.
But anyway, that's the rootcause back wave back then.
SPEAKER_00 (06:53):
Well, and I love that again.
Again, we talked about thatbefore we hit the record button,
is that oftentimes we are mostwe're best positioned to help
the person that we once were,right?
And those are things, those arestories that exist, whether
again, politically correct.
They didn't know what that meantuh when we were kids in terms of
understanding that, butultimately recognizing that you
know you had to overcomesomething pretty significant,
(07:15):
uh, not just physically, butalso, frankly, probably
emotionally as well, as you uhgrew up through that, that
impacted you, that through yourstory, you're able to help
others deal with many of thosedifferent things.
I think that's what really makesit powerful in our world in
terms of coaching andconsulting, is helping that get
through there.
So, Steve, the latest book youhad come out, Unconditional
Power, a formula for thriving inany situation, no matter how
(07:38):
frustrating, complex, andunpredictable.
Why did you write that book now?
And uh, who did you write itfor?
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
Well, I wrote it starting for me.
Remember, I was just sayingabout I developed a lot of
strategies around but firstusing it on myself and realizing
that probably other people feelhave dealt with this.
And so here's the whole point ofthe book.
The point is about when we're ina good mood, we're smarter,
right?
And so how do we make ourselvesin a good mood?
Well, I've suffered from moods.
(08:06):
I wasn't like, you know,clinically depressed, but I I
would get triggered and I wouldget down.
And I noticed that, you know, itwould take me a little bit of
time, sometimes a few days onsomething bouncing back or
whatever, various times.
But there's some people theybounce back like that.
I don't know if you have one ofthose friends, but I do, like
Willie Jolly, he's a reallygreat motivational speaker.
He's always authentically in agood mood.
(08:28):
Things happen, but he bouncesright back.
So I started to study what is itabout some people that can
bounce right back and otherpeople that can't, and then
what's the difference?
And then as leaders, because wehave to make sure everybody else
is in a good mood, and I'm nottalking about, you know, again,
touchy-feely way.
I'm just morale, you know,thinking positively, moving
(08:49):
forward.
What do we actually do?
And so I studied and came upwith nine strategies that are in
the book, and all thosestrategies I can tell you that
work because I use it on me.
And here's an exampleintentional disruption.
We all get down in life.
But the question you want to askyourself is what would you
suggest?
That's you could ask it ofothers and yourself.
All right, stuff happens.
(09:10):
What are we gonna do about it?
You know, when I went throughcancer, okay, I can't change
that I had cancer, but I couldchange on how I responded to the
cancer.
So I'm fine now, but you know,going through recession, all
kinds of stuff.
We're all faced with challenges,but are we wallowing in the
negativity or the challenge?
Are we looking for theopportunity?
And so that's an example ofintentional disruption, which is
(09:32):
one of the strategies in thebook.
SPEAKER_00 (09:33):
You I love that.
And I wanted to touch on thosestrategies.
Even before that, though, I wantto talk about because I mood
discipline in terms of what youhave.
You've got this power continuumthat you developed.
But you know, this the threesteps that you that you talk
about, you feel powerless, it'sconditional, or you feel
powerful when you move to theleft or right in terms of that
space.
How do you help leadersrecognize first what's getting
(09:57):
in their way when it comes totheir mood?
SPEAKER_01 (09:58):
Well, we have to recognize about these three
moods.
So let me kind of back upbecause you, as you touched upon
it, which is so critical.
The framework of the book isthat I've identified three
overarching moods.
The first type of mood, whichwe've all been in, we can
self-identify, is feelingpowerless, right?
Something happens, and powerlessis where we say to ourselves,
what difference can I make?
I'm only one person.
(10:19):
Even as leaders, I've workedwith a lot of CEOs, admirals,
and generals, and at times itcan feel very lonely.
And it's like, well, yeah, Ineed to change all of the
organization, but I'm only oneperson.
Or somebody is maybe not theleader.
And then again, you know, whatcan I do?
I'm only one person, or oneperson in my marriage, or, you
know, one person in a with afriendship or whatever, you
(10:40):
know, feeling powerless.
The second type of mood isconditionally powerful.
That's where we recognize wehave power, but it's conditional
on other people, things, items.
An example would be when peoplesay, I can do that as long as
that other departmentcooperates.
I can do this as long as I havethe right talent.
You know, John, I can do that aslong as we have the right
(11:02):
funding, as long as we have theright leadership, as long as we
have the right marketing.
That doesn't sound that bad, butreally what I'm doing is I'm
creating an excuse.
Although those conditions arelegitimate, I'm giving away my
power.
But the desirable move is thethird one.
And that's where I realize thatgreat leaders are
unconditionally powerful.
What I mean by unconditionallypowerful is they recognize those
(11:24):
conditions, but they spend ahundred percent of their energy
on what they're going to doabout it.
So if the market's down, if themarket's up, if you know, if
we're growth, what do we do?
You know, focusing on what we'regonna do.
You lose a customer, spending100% of your energy on what
you're gonna do about it ratherthan oh, I can't believe this
happened to me, and wallowing inagain the the problem.
(11:45):
So the desirable mood isunconditionally powerful.
And that's what we want to do ishave ourselves and others get to
that space.
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Steven, I love that.
And you know, as you talkedabout that, I I was talking back
to the story that you sharedinside of the book as well and
the the cancer diagnosis thatyou went through, you know,
several years ago.
My guess is you went through allthese moods when that happened
as well.
Was that something that occurredfor you?
SPEAKER_01 (12:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
In fact, my clients and a lot ofpeople who have read the book
and and people where I've taughtthis say what they appreciated
about this distinction is youcan self-identify.
That a lot of distinctions, itkind of makes us feel awful to
identify with that.
An example would be victim,right?
There's all this victim stuff.
Well, people say I'm not avictim, I am, whatever, but you
can identify, we can allidentify, and me too, which is
(12:33):
feeling powerless at times.
There's no value judgment.
I have felt powerless.
We do feel powerless.
Other times we do feelconditionally powerful, right?
Um well, I gotta accomplishthese goals, but I sure hope I
have the right talent or I hopeI have the right people around
me, or I hope that uh thatcustomer says yes on that big uh
that big proposal.
(12:53):
So those are, but the desirablemood is to be unconditionally
powerful.
And so when I say the desirable,it we can identify, but the
question is then what's it goingto take?
Because really, when youidentify, no one wants to feel
powerless.
We often reluctantly feelresigned to feel that way.
So the neat thing that peoplehave said about the book, among
(13:13):
many, many things, but is youcan I self-identify and then you
see what to do to get yourselfin an unconditionally powerful
state.
SPEAKER_00 (13:20):
When you think about that, and you mentioned through
the book many different stories,you protect uh the names of
those individuals.
But do you have one?
And we'll talk about yourstrategy, a couple of your
strategies here in a little bitas well, but a specific story
with a client uh where you'remost proud of that you've worked
with over time as well, who'smade that transition from you
know powerless tounconditionally powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (13:41):
Well, I'll give you an example.
So there's I have a client, Imean, there's many, many
clients.
In fact, I was just on a callthis morning on a coaching call
around helping leader change thewhole mindset of her department.
But an example of a client thatuh we have among many is where
they actually took that.
Remember I was saying aboutperformance and achievement?
First, they took that wholesimple distinction and they
(14:03):
said, we're gonna stop doingabout performance, we're gonna
do about achievement.
And I'll come back to thepowerless in a moment and
powerful.
Uh but what they ended up doing,really interesting, is they
said, Are we performing orachieving?
And so they looked at theirentire bureaucracy and cut out
all the stuff that wasperformance.
Instead of performance reviews,why not do achieving reviews?
You know, and things like that,a different focus.
(14:25):
And then they also took thisdistinction and they went
throughout the entireorganization, they made it
mandatory reading for variousleaders, and they actually use
this terminology, and so they'revery sensitive to conditional
mindset so that they can move tounconditionally powerful.
Because here's the thing thatpeople have said when you become
aware of these distinctions, youyou're able to help out other
(14:49):
people.
A lot of times people feelconditionally, but they've never
identified it that way.
So they just kind of live inthis conditional world, but
they're thinking they'repowerful.
But when we see there's likethis third dimension,
unconditionally powerful, wemove in that way.
So, right now, that clientconstantly reminds their entire
workforce on that.
And there's going through a lotof changes as well.
(15:10):
But that's an example.
I mean, there's many, many timesI was with an organization last
week and changing the team frombeing kind of conditional to
unconditional, powerful.
But anyway, I don't know ifthat's I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (15:20):
And again, as I think about that, the economy
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(15:42):
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Now, let's get back to theepisode.
That was one of the strategiesthat I want to talk about too
(16:03):
was the awareness.
And you have that as the firststrategy.
You've got to be aware of themood, if you will, that you're
in if you get started.
How have you helped others beaware of that?
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
By by learning these three different moods.
So, for example, I, you know,when I was starting to create
this stuff and studying people,right?
Everybody said, you know, somepeople feel powerful, motivated,
but I was like, what is it?
And then I started to identifywith that, and I could identify
with that.
And so then you so bringingawareness.
So one of the strategies in thebook is make the unaware aware.
(16:36):
And making the unaware aware isletting your entire organization
be aware of it.
So here's an example of what Imean.
I had a client who took thatdistinction, and people came
into his office and werecomplaining about an operational
problem.
And he said, Okay, where are weat on this continuum?
He just asked it.
And people said, Oh, we're beingconditional.
And then all he said was, Howwould we approach this problem
(16:59):
if we're being unconditionallypowerful?
And he facilitated aconversation.
He said, actually, within aboutfive, 10 minutes, they had come
up with solutions and the teammoved out.
He didn't give them thesolution.
He just reminded them andbrought awareness around that
distinction.
So that would be an example.
SPEAKER_00 (17:15):
No, and I love that as an example because many times
it's the unrealized potentialthat exists inside of an
individual that they just can'tsee.
Right.
And to be to your point, theyhand over their power, if you
will, to some condition thatexists.
Well, I'll never be able to dothat because of X, or I'll never
be able to, and it's thoselimiting beliefs that exist
inside of their space.
(17:36):
And to your point, I I believeone of the most uh advantageous
uh skills that a leader has isthe ability to help someone
realize the gap between you knowwhere they are and where they
could be, where their potentialreally identifies where they
could be.
So to help them become aware ofit and then only ask them a
question where they get to theanswer, if you will, uh on their
(17:58):
own is pretty powerful.
And if you're able to do that,Steve, that's that's really uh
says a bunch for your leadershipskills as well.
SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
Well, I was you're saying such an important point
is to having the conversation,talking to them and helping them
see the potential.
And that really comes down tothe a reminder I've found over
the years is the biggest problemin the workplace and in teams
and organizations is lack ofhonest communication.
And what I mean by that is notabout the ethics, but it's about
what people don't say to eachother.
(18:26):
People don't give that feedback,they or they bring people down,
they just tell people what theycan't do or the problem, but
they don't say, I see so muchpotential in you, or whatever it
is.
But getting that unsaid said,like here's an interesting
frame.
Have a really up or I found overthe years is have a really blunt
but caring conversation.
(18:46):
Give that person feedback andthen say to them, uh, look, I
know you can do this.
I believe in you.
Somebody said years ago, letother people borrow your eyes
until they can see it forthemselves.
Let other people borrow youreyes until they can see it for
themselves.
And I love that because greatlead, that's the vision.
So saying to somebody, Well, Idon't know I could do that, is
you say to that person, you'replaying small.
(19:09):
I believe in you and I know youcan do it.
And I'm not gonna let up untilyou see that greatness because
it benefits us all.
That's having the toughconversation, but leaving them
in an optimistic, motivatedfashion.
SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
Steve, you touched on, I mean, the blunt but caring
conversation, you know, thedefinition of candor, if you
will.
Uh and you like to use two bytwo frameworks in your book, and
we'll talk about those anotherone here at energy, but that
blunt but caring is the two bytwo framework.
If you only deliver thatfeedback bluntly without caring,
(19:41):
you're gonna be seen as a bully.
Okay, there's no doubt about it.
You're gonna you're gonna be putinto a spot where like, what is
in the world?
But if you only deliver caringfeedback, being nice to them
without being blunt, pointingout what you see as the gap,
that's where you really run intoa problem as well.
You're being really nice tothem, but nobody's gonna grow,
and then you're not gonna growas well because again, they're
on your team.
(20:02):
And so the leader who has theability to be both blunt but
caring, I often refer to it astruth with grace, okay, is the
one that's going to have thelargest impact.
It goes back to that performancereview that I had 20 plus years
ago that I talked to you beforewe hit the record button here
that said I had a mentor who wasgiving me blunt feedback, no
(20:25):
doubt about it, true feedback,but delivered in such a way that
I knew that he cared about me aswell.
And that put me in a positionwhere I had a choice.
I had to choose back to youreven three points.
I could remain powerless orconditional there or to take
responsibility what I wanted todo to grow.
I knew that he was going tosupport me, and that's the
leader we need to be.
Absolutely.
Something else too.
SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
It's like we need to ask people for feedback.
And that, you know, and youknow, I there's a theme I kind
of want to make sure uhhopefully it's coming across is
I teach this stuff with greatpassion because I've used the
strategies because I've messedup so many times.
I'll give you an example.
The value of asking feedback andcreating a safe space for people
to tell you the truth.
But then are we ready for it?
(21:06):
So some years ago, uh I had anemployee leave and uh who was
great.
She was an excellent EA.
And I said to her, Wow, I'msorry that you're gonna go.
And she said, Yeah, she wasgoing to get her master's.
And I said, Okay, great.
And I said, Is there any otherfeedback?
And I remember her kind ofhesitating, and then she
proceeded to tell me, and shesaid, you know, when I came to
work for you, I was veryconfident.
(21:26):
I'm now leaving the mostunconfident I've ever been in my
life.
And that crushed me.
I mean, my gosh, what was Idoing?
I started to realize I was alousy manager, and here's what I
did.
I have high expectations, andI'm very hard on myself.
So I was very critical, and Iand I'm programmed to look at
the problems, right?
And so I realized I was lousy atappreciation, lousy at saying
(21:49):
when things were going well.
And I was thinking I'm drivingher and everyone around me to
keep excelling.
But what I was really doing wasconstantly being critical,
although maybe my criticismswere correct in certain points,
it lost the whole frame and itlost proportion.
And so I changed.
And so here's the neat end tothe story.
(22:11):
She came back to work for me andshe works for me today.
She's fantastic.
Thankfully, she forgave me.
And I learned.
So we got to get that feedback.
And to your point, when youreceive that feedback, we all
grow in life, but we only growwhen we hear that tough
feedback.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
Oh, and then I mean, there's geez, we could spend a
30-minute conversation just onthat topic right there.
You've got to put people in yourlife, right, that are going to
be candid with you and give youblunt but caring feedback.
Last thing I need is, you know,people telling me how good I'm
doing ultimately and and notgive me any feedback on how I
can grow, how I can learn.
So we've got to give peoplepermission to do that, to give
(22:47):
us that feedback and create thatsafe space to your point so that
we don't respond to it.
But seek out those individualswho will give us the feedback
that we need as well.
So, so important, so important.
Like I said, I could spend Icould spend a lot of time
talking about that.
SPEAKER_01 (23:02):
And I just want to see, I know, I don't know.
We're all like feeding off eachother because this is like I I
think and I think it really isimportant.
It's the art of theconversation.
I mean that we got to rewardpeople for their feedback.
So I see this a lot whereorganizations do these employee
surveys or they get feedback andthey don't do anything with it,
or they go, Well, these are thisis what the results say.
Okay, great, but what are youdoing with that?
(23:23):
So it's so important, and itcan't take a long time.
We got to move out on it.
So you getting feedback, myselfgetting feedback.
It's one thing asking feedback,but then we got to do something
with it as we've talked about.
So I just want to remind peoplehow it's really important
because that's a great way topositively reinforce somebody
and thank them rather than justsay, thank you for sharing.
Well, that doesn't do anything.
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
Steve goes back to your power continuum, right?
I mean, are we truly giving thempower ultimately for us to do
something about?
Because I can once I get thatfeedback as well, I can
rationalize my behavior all daylong.
Well, I was like that because ofthis conditional uh type power,
right?
With regards to I, you know,they they treated me that way,
so I turned it back around.
I mean, so many different thingswe can rationalize, and we know
(24:05):
rational lies is exactly whatthey are.
But I think, you know, thosethose pictures, those small
pictures that you drew uh insidethe book, the different
frameworks are so cool.
One of the ones that caught myeyes, and I want to spend a
little time, uh put a pen in andspend some time, was the uh
energy modes that you had, thefour different energy modes, uh,
where you had someone who'spessimistic or optimistic, as
(24:25):
well as an observer and/orsomeone who's a celebrator as
well.
Tell me a little bit about howthat how that framework came
about.
I'm sure there's a story behindit as well.
SPEAKER_01 (24:34):
Well, again, you're right.
It it came out of, well, somepeople are optimistic, but
they're quietly optimistic.
Well, that doesn't necessarilyhelp out as a leader.
You have to be what we call agenerator, which we'll get to in
a moment.
So I realize that, but let mejust touch on there's a reason
why I say uh optimistic andpessimistic, draw that
distinction versus positive andnegative.
(24:55):
I I don't know about you, butfor a long time I would teach
about the value of positivethinking and and all that stuff.
I would get pushback and frompeople that say, well, uh, who's
maybe somebody negative?
Well, I'm being realistic.
And then I thought, well, youknow, they do make a good point.
They look at negative things andsomebody's positive, the
positive things.
But then so I I realize thebetter distinction is optimistic
(25:18):
and pessimistic because here'sthe difference.
An optimistic and a pessimist,the way I see this is they both
are realistic, but it's abouthow they view the outcome.
So a pessimistic person looks atthe situation and says, We're
doomed.
An optimistic person looks atthe situation and say, We got
problems, we got to work onthis, but I know we can, I know
(25:39):
there's an answer.
I know we're gonna grow from it.
It's just the way we viewthings.
Well, when you look at and studyleadership, as I know you have,
is is leaders uh that are moreoptimistic and passionate about
the future are more attractiveto work with.
I don't mean attractive in aphysical way, I mean you want to
follow that person.
So optimistic and pessimistic isimportant.
(26:00):
The other distinction on thatgrid, and then we'll put it all
together, is being uh anobserver or a generator.
So some people are observers,they sit back and read the room,
sounds good, but they're waitingfor other people.
Other people are generators.
So there are people on thepessimistic side who are uh you
could say observers.
(26:21):
They don't say aren't doomers,you know, they're not gonna be
real going down the uh badsituation unless other people
are.
But the worst people are what Icall, you know, the doomers.
Doomers are people walk in aroom and they're ready to just
say, we're messed up, it's nevergonna work.
So they seize the moment.
But the way to counteract thatis to be a booster.
(26:43):
And forget about the words.
The key is walking in asituation and before anybody
else sees the moment and say, wegot problems, but we're gonna
figure out an answer and thenget to it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
A generator who has optimism, absolutely, in terms
of making that happen.
Just love the distinctionbetween the two.
And we can, you know, SaturdayNight Live can keep playing with
the Debbie Downers and thingslike that with regards to those
who are doomers.
Uh, we don't need we don't needthem in our life, let alone in
our organizations that are thatare making change or trying to
make change.
(27:14):
Steve, I appreciate this, youknow, in terms of that book.
And I think you know, folkswould find your nine strategies
to be very powerful and thatthey should pick up a copy of
your book.
Uh we've just talked about acouple of those today, as well
as a couple of the frameworks.
What else you got going on?
What's next?
What what are you working onright now?
SPEAKER_01 (27:29):
Well, we just actually a year ago, we launched
an online system, and it's uh asfar as we know, it's the only
online system in which itteaches people how to be a
high-achieving team.
So it's a learning uh onlinesystem, but it has an AI
overlay.
So here's what I mean by that isyou just go on the system and
put in the issue, and it notonly will answer that, but it
(27:51):
actually shows which videos towatch with the team.
So it's a learning model.
It's not like just ChatGPT orAI, I'm not talking about that,
but it's able to do that.
And the reason why that'simportant is if you think about
it, there's a lot of leadershipstuff out there, there's
communication stuff out there,but there's not about how anyone
can create and sustain a greatteam.
(28:12):
And so this system is now beingused by a lot of organizations,
and we're real proud about it.
So if they want information, wecan send that to them as well.
SPEAKER_00 (28:19):
Love that.
And and Steve, I'm gonna giveyou the last word here, the last
question.
But how can folks get in touchwith you, learn more about your
online system andor uh whatyou've got going on and stay
connected with you?
SPEAKER_01 (28:29):
Thank you.
So we do a lot of you knowone-on-one and teamwork stuff.
But if they go tojustbehonest.com, so there's a
lot of ways to get to ouroverall website, and then
there's an honest communicationcalculator, a team elf
calculator.
There's a lot of stuff that theycan get on there.
That's no cost, but anyway, ifthey go to justbehonest.com,
that's justbehonest.com, andthey can get all that
(28:49):
information, then contact usfrom there.
SPEAKER_00 (28:51):
Steve will make sure to put a link to the show notes
in that, folks.
I would I would encourage you togo take a look at what he's got
going on.
I'd I'd love the theconversation about honest candor
and what that really means inthe frameworks that you talk
about.
Steve, I know that the folkshave uh found some value in
this.
I would yeah, go ahead.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (29:07):
I know I'm interrupting.
I just always like to givepeople something.
So if they if they mention yourshow and they go on our website,
justbehonest.com, and you knowthere's a way to contact us,
mention the show.
I'll I'll send them a frameworkof how to have the most
difficult conversations.
There's nine steps, and we'llsend them that framework for
free.
All they have to do is just goon there, mention the show, and
we'll send it to them.
SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
I appreciate that offer as well.
Always like free stuff in termsof getting that done.
And I know the listeners needhelp and having those types of
tough conversations.
We've been a great guest today.
I know we could keep on talkingand different topics, and I look
forward to seeing even uh you'vementioned a couple other books
coming out.
Maybe we can connect again asthose are coming out and share
some of the things inside ofthat as well.
I like to finish up my firsttime guest with one question.
(29:48):
Stephen kind of lets you havethe final word, if you will,
with regards to sending out yourmessage.
But I'm gonna give you abillboard.
You can put it anywhere you wantto.
What's the message you're gonnaput on that billboard and why do
you put that message on there?
SPEAKER_01 (29:59):
Get the on.
Said said the biggest problem inlife is not what people say,
it's what they don't say.
Not only about the difficultthings, but also about
appreciation.
People are stingy with how theyappreciate and they and they and
they often, when they don't knowwhat to say, they don't say
anything versus just saysomething and actually go ask
people, get feedback.
But it's all about getting theunsaid said.
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
Steve, I love that.
Best wishes to you goingforward.
Hey folks, the I appreciate you.
If you got to this point insidethe conversation, that's really
cool.
I encourage you to share whatyou heard because I know you've
heard something that others needto hear.
So just make a copy of this linkand send it out to get it in the
hands of more and more folks.
Also, if you get a chance toleave us a review on this
podcast episode specifically,love to share that.
(30:43):
That's how, again, we get it inthe hands on this podcast
episode specifically.
Love more and more folks.
And Steve, I just want to I wantto let you know I've enjoyed
this conversation today, and Ihope that uh everything goes
well for you in the future andlook forward to staying in
contact with you.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
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