Episode 192: STOP Doing This, The Real Cause of Executive Burnout (It's Not Overwork) w/ Zach White

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
It's easy to assign blame to the things that we can
see.
And our brain likes to, youknow, when you feel pain, it
looks around and it looks for asource.
What's causing that pain?
Was it the flame on the stovethat burned my hand?

SPEAKER_05 (00:25):
Hey, Uncommon Leaders, welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
I'm your host, John Gallagher.
So sometimes you find a unicornwhen you're looking for a guest
to be on your podcast.
And what does that mean for mein terms of a unicorn to some of
the shared stories that we mighthave going back way over time?
Zach White is my guest today.
He's a mechanical engineerturned lifestyle coach.

(00:47):
Very similar, kind of the samebloodline as I've been in.
So I look forward to learning alittle bit about his journey,
but also about some of thethings that he's done in his
career and what he does today asa coach.
He's led nine-figure projects inthe Fortune 200 with companies
such as Facebook, Apple, Amazon,and Google, and has also coached
those executives now that he'sin the space that he is with

(01:08):
regards to coaching.
He's the founder of the Oasis ofCourage organization, uh, OECO.
We talked about how to say thatat the start.
And he's the host of the HappyEngineer podcast.
I would like to learn a littlebit more about that as we go
through this conversation aswell.
But he's here to show usultimately how to uh swap out
the word work life balance as amyth for whole life balance and

(01:30):
how to escape the trap ofburnout.
So, Zach White, welcome to theUncommon Leader Podcast.
I hope you're doing well.
How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 (01:37):
Don, I'm happy to be here.
What a blessing.
And you are an uncommon leader.
What a joy to spend time today.
Thanks, Pan.

SPEAKER_05 (01:43):
Yeah, I think that, like I said, we are a little bit
of those unicorns, thoseengineers that aren't really
stuck in engineering and end up,you know, doing some of these
things to have impact.
And that's my really my firstquestion as we go forward.
Was there a moment or was therea time you said, I'm not really
kind of this engineer or thisproject engineer anymore in
these nine-figure organizations?
I feel like I should be a coachof engineers or engineering

(02:04):
managers.

SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Well, I certainly never saw this coming, John.
But in my career working inengineering, like many folks, I
had a big ambition.
I wanted to grow.
I wanted to get promoted.
I wanted to be somebody, youknow, make my mom proud.
And unfortunately, I made somereally big mistakes in the
pursuit of that success.

(02:26):
I ended up in a rock bottomexperience, my own burnout
experience, divorced, depressed,very embarrassed about how my
life had ended up in this placewhere I had come from
valedictorian and most likely tosucceed, and uh thought I was
gonna be somebody.
And I would have traded allthose long hours at work and

(02:47):
promotions for a second chance.
But unfortunately, sometimes youlearn life's lessons the hard
way.
And coming out of thatexperience is when I hired my
first coach.
And I really was blessed by thatprocess, the self-awareness, the
deep questioning, the journeythrough career and life with a
guide, somebody alongside towork with and help me along the

(03:11):
way.
It made a tremendous impact.
And I went deep into personaldevelopment at that time.
Honestly, John, just to recoverin my life and career, I still
wanted to be an executive, to,you know, grow in my engineering
career path.
And that's what I was doing.
But in 2019, I was a seniormanager in engineering at the
time, had a big team.
We were running big projects.

(03:32):
And I had this weekend I setaside for what I call solitude
and silence.
It was a discipline that I builtinto my life where I would take
three days in fasting, justdrinking water only.
I'd go off and find a quietplace, take a journal, and I
wouldn't talk to anybody.
I wouldn't listen to anypodcast, read any books, just me
in a journal for three days infasting, silence, and prayer to

(03:56):
check in with my life and seeyou know what comes up.
What does God want to tell me?
And that weekend, I had thedownload moment.
I was sitting there thinkingabout my career, my passion for
engineering, and I wasreflecting on the impact that
coaching had had in my life.
And I still had coaches.
I had actually never let that goever since uh the divorce and

(04:16):
that time.
I'd always had a coach eversince.
I just fell in love withcoaching.
And there was this little itchabout business.
You know, maybe it's time toleave the W-2 world and start my
own business.
And these three things wereswirling around in my brain on
this weekend.
And it's like the second day,you're still getting a little
hungry, and everything's goingon in this fasting.
And just boom, it hit me rightthere.
I think there's something at theintersection of engineering,

(04:38):
coaching, and business that iswhat I'm called to do.
And the oasis of courage wasborn that day.
I didn't know it at that timethat that's what it would be,
but that's where the idea gotplanted in my heart.
And it wasn't long after that Ispoke with my wife.
I had been remarried since then,happily married to Johanna, and
said, Hey, I got this crazyidea.

(04:59):
I think, I think God's tellingme to go start a business
coaching engineers.
I have no idea how that willwork, but what do you think?
And the moment I knew it wastime to quit, John, was when she
looked me in the eye and said,When do we start?
And that support from her wasthe green light for me.
It's like, okay, I'm I'm readyto do this and had no idea it
would one day be uh theorganization that it is now.

(05:21):
Uh and actually never intendedto name it the Oasis of Courage.
That was my personal lifemission statement, but topic for
later if you wanted to hearabout it.
And that's how that's how itcame to be.
And so I look back and think,wow, how strange.
Because I'm passionate aboutengineering.
Once you're an engineer, you'realways an engineer, I think, in
some capacity.
I became an engineer, not to bean engineer, but to help
engineers.

(05:42):
And if I hadn't gone through myown, you know, decade plus in
that career path, I would not beable to do what I do now.
So I feel really blessed for thejourney.

SPEAKER_05 (05:51):
Zach, so appreciate you sharing that.
Boy, I'd love to say my journeyinto coaching and starting
growing champions around thesame time in 2019.
Maybe we can talk about thatsometime.
You know, to honor, you know,what you talked about in the
discipline of fasting andjournaling and really listening
for the voice of God inside ofthat.
I mean, an uncommon approach interms of what's happening.
And then to act on that voice uhis pretty powerful as well.

(06:15):
Certainly understanding wherethere's support uh in the family
as well, that makes it makes iteven better.
Such, such a great story.
And look, listening throughthis, we're gonna get to how
that oasis of occurrence thenand that life mission state, and
we're gonna get to that one, nodoubt about it.
The level of awareness in theside of the engineer uh and how

(06:36):
you didn't get into engineeringto be an engineer.
Uh, I think we had a similarpath there.
And I love, you know, we have acommon connection, if you will,
knowledge of brand buildersgroup.
One of the things that RoryVaden has always said, and it
sticks with me, and folksprobably get tired of hearing me
say it too many times, but Ihave to give him attribution for
it is that we're most powerfullypositioned to help that person
that we once were.

SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (06:57):
And I sense that that's what you're doing uh
inside of your work right now.
Now, you mentioned you wentthrough burnout and many
different things that were theoutcome of that burnout,
divorce, some of the thingsprobably your health was
probably impacted as well as youwent through that.
But it's interesting, and whenI've gotten ready for this, you
say that burnout is notnecessarily caused by what we're

(07:18):
doing, but what we're not doing.
Tell me more about that in termsof how is burnout caused by
something we're not doing.

SPEAKER_01 (07:24):
It's easy to assign blame to the things that we can
see.
And our brain likes to, yeah,when you feel pain, it looks
around and it looks for asource.
What's causing that pain?
Was it the flame on the stovethat burned my hand?
Okay, flame is hot.
Don't do that.
And so when you're burning out,your brain just looks around at

(07:44):
what's going on in your life andit says, these must be the cause
of these negative emotions orthis energy drain or this
depression or this experience.
And so we look at what we cansee.
And the things that we see areworking long hours, or that boss
that we really don't like, thattoxic culture at work, or the
colleague who's really hard toget along with, or maybe a loved

(08:07):
one at home that we're inconflict with and we're not
resolving, you know, thosemarital or relationship issues,
or the kids that aremisbehaving.
We just assign the cause tothose things we can see.
And what I've found is thatthose things are not the primary
cause of burnout.
They can accelerate yourburnout.
Let's be fair.
They're not without challenge.

(08:27):
But the thing that is at primarycause is what you have let go in
the process of moving towardsthose things.
So as you work the longer hours,maybe you stop going to the gym.
You're not taking care of yourbody.
You work the longer hours andyou stay up late on the laptop
till 1 a.m., 2 a.m.
trying to get to that magicalinbox zero that doesn't even

(08:48):
really matter, and you're notsleeping as many hours or as
well as you used to.
You know, you're in thatconflict with your boss and
you're in a high stresssituation and you're feeling
that stress, but then you're nottaking the time to decompress,
to get help, to pray, to shareit with someone, to do the
things that are going to helpyou to relieve that stress, get

(09:10):
back into a holistic, balancedplace.
So all these little mechanismsthat show up steal from you the
very thing that keeps youbalanced in your whole life.
And so we blame all thosethings, but John, I I work more
hours than I ever did atWhirlpool when I launched my
company.
And it didn't burn me out atall.
And so what's the difference?

(09:31):
Right?
You can always find these sortof exceptions to those rules.
And the reason I found isbecause it's about how you
create a whole life balance andpaying attention to what's
missing and in a sensecounterbalancing those
challenging forces.
Be careful just looking aroundyour life and assuming that
those are the things that arecreating your negative

(09:52):
experience.
In many cases, it's what youhave neglected that kills your
life, not the things that you'reinvesting into.

SPEAKER_05 (10:00):
That's so good.
And again, as I really thinkabout some of the things that
you said, that we stop doing onour way to success.
And you mentioned even in yournew career as a coach, that you
probably work more hours nowthan you did before.
But I sense two things.
There's disciplines for, andwe'll get to these those in just

(10:21):
a minute, that you've put inplace that ensure that you don't
go back to that point again.
But the second part is whatyou've really, you know,
ultimately have found your flowarea in terms of when you're
working, you feel really goodabout it.
And then a lot of folks will sayif you find what you love,
you'll never work a day in yourlife.
Just not true based on what yousaid, but that if you find what

(10:42):
you're love doing and whatyou're good at, that you'll work
as much as you need to to besuccessful in that space and
you'll probably work harderbecause you're passionate about
it.
You found something there.
So, what are some of thedisciplines that you've had to
put in place to ensure that youdon't go back to that burnout
time that you're in?

SPEAKER_01 (10:59):
For me, the fundamental discipline is
getting outside of myself,letting go of my ego, and
involving my community in mysuccess.
So the word discipline is soimportant.
I believe that it's a key toeveryone's success, but I also
see most people talking aboutdiscipline as only a

(11:22):
characteristic about me.
It's my willpower, it's myability to drive it.
I don't need any help andaccountability, I don't need
anybody, you know, to supportme.
Like the ultimate is if youcould do it on your own, this
sort of rugged individualismthat's very typical of the West.
And I think it's a powerfultrait, and it can be a dangerous

(11:44):
way to think about discipline.
It's great if you can wake up at4 a.m.
and go to the gym and hit ithard and do all these things on
your own without any outsidesupport, but that is extremely
uncommon and difficult.
And frankly, it's not as fun.
You know, there's something tome about disciplines when
they're shared in community thatmakes it easier and more

(12:06):
enjoyable.
So everything that I've builtinto my life, you know, I could
tell you all of my morningroutine habits, I could tell you
about how I discipline lifepurpose and my vision and
productivity.
But it's, you know, there's apillar there around people.
And so I think if you want to bean uncommon leader, you must
begin by surrendering thisbelief that it's better to do it

(12:28):
myself, or that somehow I needto be the one who solves it.
My discipline is held togetherby the glue and the fabric of my
tribe and the people who Itrust.
And when I look back at what ledto my burnout, John, one of the
biggest lessons I learned wasthat I fell into that hero
mentality, that lone wolfmentality.

(12:50):
And even worse is that I keptall of my challenges, all of the
struggles of my life, I keptthem secret.
I didn't tell anybody what I wassuffering through.
I just thought I need to fix it.
I gotta do this on my own.
And keeping those secrets waswhat was the cancer in my body
and in my mind that reallyaccelerated that fall off the

(13:12):
cliff in my life.
So, you know, you can talk aboutlike Tim Ferris and all the
little habits.
And, you know, do you put lemonin your water in the morning and
it's warm or is it cold?
And those things are great.
I'm an engineer.
I can nerd out on that stuff allday.
But if I was gonna just say themost uncommon thing, especially
in the engineering world, it'sto get out of that lone wolf

(13:33):
mentality, to don't let yourintroversion or shyness get in
the way of having a community tosupport your disciplines and
your success.
That will take you further thanany morning routine ever will.

SPEAKER_05 (13:44):
No, I love that.
And even as I look back atengineering in school, that's
been a few years for me, a fewmore years than you.
Um, the success that I had wasnot until we created a group, a
community of folks to studytogether, even as individual
contribution with regards tocourses, but you know, being
together with a group thatcontinues on for me.

(14:07):
Uh, I can think of two right offthe bat that exist.
One is a tech string that I havewith four other guys that we're
going through on our exerciseand hashtagging how many
calories we burn.
And we're getting ready to do ahalf marathon Spartan race here
in less than two weeks as Irecord this together.
That we never would have donesomething hard like that had we
tried to do that on our own, weprobably would have failed

(14:30):
miserably.
So that community, second thingfor me, and I just had uh came
this morning from a men's studygroup, a Bible study group, to
your point.
Again, being able to share someof those things that are
happening in my life and havinga group of men around me to
really add in.
So there's just three ways interms of community really works,
and I think you're absolutelyspot on with regards to trying

(14:52):
to be the hero of our own story.
Yeah.
Uh something that we don't needto be.
So give me one, give me acommunity uh dis uh habit.
I won't call it a disciplineanymore.
I'll call it a community uhexercise that you do that that
keeps you in that space.

SPEAKER_01 (15:06):
Absolutely.
So number one is having aperson, at least one, with whom
you're fully known.
So for me, I would call this anaccountability partner, is a
good name, but you might justsay it's a best friend.
Someone who you do not keepsecrets from.
Someone who has permission inyour life to ask you any
question and you'll tell themthe truth, and you make it a

(15:28):
priority to connect with thatperson and have those
conversations on a regularbasis.
So I have two of those people inmy life, Gavin and Dave.
You know, Gavin is myaccountability partner in the
more business sense of thingsand just kind of coaching.
He's also a coach and he'sawesome.
And Dave is my best friend for along, long time.
And these two men havepermission to enter into my life

(15:49):
in any way.
I'm fully known to them.
There's no secrets.
So I think having that type ofrelationship, and for men
especially, that we're veryguarded around this.
Women are more likely to sharetheir story with each other, and
men are more likely to just, youknow, shut up and play golf,
right?
Let's see what I think that's adiscipline, a habit of
relationship that will serve youin a big way is to create that

(16:13):
accountability partnership, thatdeep, fully known relationship.
That's number one.
The second is masterminding.
And so we mentioned already RoryVaden and the brand builders
group as an example.
There's many different types ofgroups out there, but when I
think of a mastermind, a sharedpurpose, you know, this
community is uh set toward acommon aim.

(16:34):
They're not doing the exact samething, but we're moving in the
same direction.
We care about the same things,we share really core values
around how we're gonna pursuethose aims, and we sharpen each
other.
It's that iron sharpens iron uhidea.
And so each person individuallyis in pursuit of greatness, and
we collectively are in pursuitof greatness, and like anything,
a commitment to the group.

(16:56):
I'm giving more than I'm evenreceiving, which ultimately
means I'm gonna receive tenfold.
You can never out give God,right?
If you just keep giving to thatcommunity and everybody takes
that spirit, man, it's uh rocketfuel for your success.
So those two things, I think ifyou can have that one-on-one
accountability partnership, thatfully known relationship of

(17:18):
trust, which is earned by theway.
You don't just pick a randomperson and you're gonna say,
hey, I'm gonna tell themeverything.
There's there's work to createthose relationships.
I want to acknowledge that, butit's worth it.
It's worth doing that work.
And then finding a mastermindcommunity.
I'm biased towards investing inthat financially because when
you put your money in the game,it gets your attention, right?

(17:41):
People who pay, pay attention.
And I think that helps level upthe commitment.
But it doesn't have to be.
You can create a mastermindingcommunity on your own at no cost
as well.
But if you can, I would reallyencourage you to find a group
and invest in that.
Even worse is that I kept all ofmy challenges, all of the
struggles of my life, I keptthem secret.

(18:04):
I didn't tell anybody what I wassuffering through.
I just thought I need to fix it.
I gotta do this on my own.
And keeping those secrets waswhat that was the cancer in my
body and in my mind that reallyaccelerated that fall off the
cliff in my life.
So, you know, you can talk aboutlike Tim Ferris and all the
little habits.
And, you know, do you put lemonin your water in the morning?

(18:26):
It's warm or is it cold?
And those things are great.
I'm an engineer.
I can nerd out on that stuff allday.
But if I was gonna just say themost uncommon thing, especially
in the engineering world, it'sto get out of that lone wolf
mentality, to don't let yourintroversion or shyness get in
the way of having a community tosupport your disciplines and

(18:46):
your success.
That will take you further thanany morning routine ever will.

SPEAKER_05 (18:50):
No, I love that.
And even as I look back atengineering in school, that's
been a few years for me, a fewmore years than you.
Um, the success that I had wasnot until we created a group, a
community of folks to studytogether, even as individual
contribution with regards tocourses, but you know, being
together with a group thatcontinues on for me.

(19:12):
Uh, I can think of two right offthe bat that exist.
One is a tech string that I havewith four other guys that we're
going through on our exerciseand hashtagging how many
calories we burn, and we'regetting ready to do a half
marathon Spartan race here inless than two weeks as I record
this together.
That we never would have donesomething hard like that had we
tried to do that on our own, weprobably would have failed

(19:35):
miserably.
So that community, second thingfor me, and I just had uh came
this morning from a men's studygroup, a Bible study group, to
your point.
Again, being able to share someof those things that are
happening in my life and havinga group of men around me to
really add in.
So there's just three ways interms of community really works,
and I think you're absolutelyspot on with regards to trying

(19:57):
to be the hero of our own story.
Yeah, uh, something that wedon't need to be.
So give me one, give me acommunity uh dis uh habit.
I won't call it a disciplineanymore, I'll call it a
community uh exercise that youdo that keeps you in that space.

SPEAKER_01 (20:11):
Absolutely.
So, number one is having aperson, at least one, with whom
you're fully known.
So for me, I would call this anaccountability partner, is a
good name, but you might justsay it's a best friend.
Someone who you do not keepsecrets from.

SPEAKER_05 (20:26):
Someone who's common leaders, hope you're enjoying
the episode so far.
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Brand Builders Group, the folkswho have been helping me refine
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call with one of their expertbrand strategists.
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(20:48):
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That's coachjohngallagher.comslash BBG.
Now, let's get back to theepisode.
Love that.
So again, you have thoseindividual one-on-one

(21:09):
relationships you have.
You also have those group groupmastermind or other group type
relationships that really workout.
I think both of those uh arespot on again in all the areas
of our life.
And again, now we get into alittle bit more about the
coaching again.
You know, I often talk about insix areas.
You got your work area that youneed to have a coach in, and
that what you're doing, and itsounds like you do that as all,

(21:30):
but there's also your faith,your fitness, your fun, your
friendships or relationshipsthat you have, and even your
finances where you need coaches.
And I think, at least forlearning for me, in terms of
that coaching journey thatstarted for me being coached
about 20 years ago, isrecognizing that frankly, I'm
not going to go as far as mypotential without that coaching,

(21:50):
without that feedback, withoutthat one-on-one in any of those
areas.
One of the things that you talkabout in your coaching, and I
love this, and I'm in fullagreement, but I want you to
talk to the listeners aboutthis, is the difference between
uh work life balance, that is amyth, and whole life balance.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat and how you kind of, you
know, what are your thoughtsaround that?

SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
Yeah.
As an engineer, I think inmental models in that.

SPEAKER_05 (22:14):
Love that.
of our life.
coaching again.

(22:36):
that what you're doing, and itsounds like you do that as all,

(22:59):
areas.
uh work-life balance, that is amyth, and whole life balance.

SPEAKER_01 (23:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (23:22):
Love that.
of our life.
coaching again.
You got your work area that youneed to have a coach in and that

(23:44):
what you're doing, and it soundslike you do that as all, but
there's also your faith, yourfitness, your fun, your

(24:07):
areas.
uh work life balance, that is amyth, and whole life balance.

SPEAKER_01 (24:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (24:31):
Love that.
of our life.
coaching again.

(24:52):
what you're doing, and it soundslike you do that as all, but

(25:15):
areas.

SPEAKER_01 (25:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (25:39):
Love that.
I think both of those uh arespot on, again, in all the areas
of our life.
coaching again.

(26:00):
what you're doing, and it soundslike you do that as well, but

(26:23):
areas.

SPEAKER_01 (26:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (26:47):
Love that.
I think both of those uh arespot on, again, in all the areas
of our life.
coaching again.

(27:08):
that what you're doing, and itsounds like you do that as well,
friendships, your relationship.

SPEAKER_01 (27:15):
And when you say work-life balance, what's the
picture that comes into yourmind?
And for most of us, it's ascale.
It's that teeter-totteringscale.
And so on one end is work, andon the other end is life.
And so, what's the intentionhere?
Are they supposed to be equal?
And does that mean like eighthours at work, eight hours of

(27:36):
life every day?
Does it mean they're the sameamount of fun?
Does it like what does it meanfor work and life to be equal?
Because in my world, work is apart of my life.
And so, how do I separate thesetwo things?
And what happens then is whenI'm working, well, that's on the
opposite side of life.
So it must not be fun orlife-giving because it's not

(27:57):
over there on the life side ofthe balance.
So work must just be a necessaryevil to get back over to the
life side.
And I think that is anabsolutely atrocious way to
think about the precious gift ofyour time and energy on this
world.
Your vocation, your opportunityto work is a blessing.

(28:18):
Work should be a life-givingexperience.
That doesn't mean every momentof every day, you're gonna love
it.
It can be stressful, it can behard, it can be conflict.
But what I seek is not a jobthat I want to retire from as
soon as possible, but a job thatwhile I'm doing it, I can feel
aligned with my purpose and itcreates meaning and joy and adds

(28:40):
to my life and not the other wayaround.
So I take a different mentalmodel.
Let's look at our whole life asone big circle.
One, one VIN, a single circleVIN, if you will, you're a nerdy
engineer.
And I think the wheel of lifetool, it's very common in life
coaching.
Most people will have seensomething like this where you
have these spokes that representeach of the areas.

(29:03):
And you just mentioned a reallygreat list of what those might
be and fitness and faith and funand family and finances.
But you could choose any numberof spokes that represent your
life holistically.
Two people may not have the samepriorities of what they want to
create balance around.
And just ask yourself howsatisfied, how fulfilled am I in

(29:24):
these areas?
And if you're really satisfiedin your fitness, but your
vocation and your work, you hateit.
Well, every time that wheel ofyour life rolls around to the
work spoke, you have this bigjolt, this really uncomfortable
ride.
And so with my clients, we'reseeking to create the most round

(29:44):
and full experience of lifepossible.
So that when you're at work,you're enjoying that, that's
purposeful for you.
When you're at home, you'reenjoying that, that's meaningful
and life giving for you.
That's the way I want to live.
That's the experience I want to.
I want to from the more Moment Iwake up until the moment my head
hits the pillow, make as much ofthat feel like I'm squeezing the

(30:06):
juice out of life as I can, notjust, you know, I got to work to
live.
I think that's just a tragic,tragic way to view the gift of
your life here on the earth.

SPEAKER_05 (30:15):
Zach, so good.
I had the picture that came tomy mind.
I wouldn't have the picture,it's more of a video is driving
down the road about 61 miles anhour and the front wheels just
start to wobble.
And you can tell you're like, ohman.
So I got to either drive sloweror drive faster.
Uh, but I need to be, you know,at a certain speed to get where
I need to go.
And so that pull balance interms of all the way around the

(30:35):
wheel is so important.
Uh that's just another geekingout engineer thing, mechanical
engineer.
We could probably share thosestories going on forever and
ever uh as we go through that.
The other thing I really uhadmire uh about your work, Zach,
specifically in terms of goingfrom engineer to coach, but also
that you've really uh what itappears to me on both your

(30:58):
LinkedIn, and I'm gonna have auh certainly have a link in the
show notes to your LinkedInprofile so that folks can get in
touch with you.
But in other areas, yourwebsite, you have niched,
niched, uh, whatever that is.
You're very focused on youravatar, that is that engineering
manager.
Doesn't mean that's all that youwork with, but very bold to be
very focused and discussing thatin your space.

(31:20):
How has that created both maybechallenges for you in growing
your business, but also maybesome fulfillment in your work as
well?
A little bit of both of that.

SPEAKER_01 (31:28):
There's always a fear as a business owner of
niching down that ideal clientand being bold to say this is
the person who I work with.
And in my case, that bullseyetarget is an engineering
manager, senior manager, thatmiddle band of the engineering
organization and some of thetangents, maybe product managers

(31:51):
or project managers, but theycome from a technical
background.
They share the deep analytical,logical, engineering worldview
of life.
Those people who've had somesuccess, they're not new in
their career, but they're notexecutives either.
This is the place I focus.
And the fear comes from well, ifI exclude people, will my
business suffer?
And every new business owner canrelate to this.

(32:13):
It's like, I want to, I want tohave the biggest net possible
because you just want to getclients.
You want to get business.
And yeah, the truth is theopposite.
So maybe to nerd out as anengineering example, I think of
it like a venturi.
And when you can create velocityon a single path, that one
client who you're best suited toserve, which you already

(32:34):
mentioned, Rory's quote, thatwe're we're best suited to serve
the person whom we once were,and that's exactly who I was.
So it's very easy for me tocreate a radical transformation
for these leaders because I'vebeen there, I've done that, I've
had that transformation, we'vedone it hundreds of times now
with other engineering managers.
But what happens when you createthat velocity with one client

(32:54):
who you can really, really helpis it creates this vacuum, this
pull on the edges.
So what's the picture that comesinto your mind?
And for most of us, it's ascale.
It's that teeter-totteringscale.
And so on one end is work, andon the other end is life.
And so what's the intentionhere?

(33:14):
Are they supposed to be equal?
And does that mean like eighthours at work, eight hours of
life every day?
Does it mean they're the sameamount of fun?
Does it like what does it meanfor work and life to be equal?
Because so the senior engineerwho's not a manager yet really
wants into the program becausethey see the managers doing it.
And the senior director who isfeeling imposter syndrome

(33:35):
because he or she never quitefigured out this lifestyle
balance and they're reallyunhappy, they want to join too.
And now the supply chain leaderwho's not an engineer but
resonates with this logicalapproach once in and it pulls
people at the edges.
So I just would encourageanybody who's an entrepreneur, a
business owner, you know, andwants to take that bold step of

(33:58):
niching down, it's worth it.
There's a, you know, they saythe riches are in the niches.
And I think that's true becausenot only will it make it much
easier to help that person,because you can tailor your
product or service truly to theperson who needs it most, but
that venturi effect is real.
And it takes courage to do it.
But if you will commit to it, Ihave found it to be the best

(34:19):
decision I've made in business.
Love that.

SPEAKER_05 (34:22):
Both as an entrepreneur, but also on look
on the other side of that.
I got to believe, and youtouched on this a little bit
about you as well.
Uh, the engineering manager,aside from maybe the physician
or the physician executive, thedoctor, uh, has got to be one of
the most set in their ways withregards to I can be my own hero.
I can figure out the equationand I can get this done.

(34:45):
So what you know, when somebodycomes to you like that, what is
a way that you kind of breakthat down and whether it's you
know, humble them or certainlyget them to see, make them aware
of what they're not reachingwith regards to their potential
by not having a coach.

SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
It's funny you mentioned this question because
I've had countless mentors andadvisors and my own coaches tell
me, you know, Zach, yourbusiness could be 10 times this
size if you would coach anyoneelse other than engineers,
because they're so difficult toget off of their position and
they're very, very skeptical ofanybody trying to sell them

(35:23):
anything.
And so it is a big lift.
But here's the truth.
Number one is that yourintention to serve them must be
sincere and from a place ofgenuine love, or it won't land.
If you are just trying to sellsomebody something and make a
buck, then you won't succeed atthis.
And I really, really do careabout helping these people.

(35:46):
And I think that comes through.
And people will take a chance ondoing my program just because
they feel that sincerity.
That's number one.
Number two is that people willchange from either inspiration
or desperation.
And so the most important thingfor me to do for that
engineering leader is have thecourage in our interaction to

(36:06):
shine a flashlight very directlyon the part of their life that's
either boldly inspired to becomesomething more than they are
today and help them gasp, feelthe emotion of that.
For an engineer, is like couldbe also a shocking experience.
Or the opposite to to see thatyour life is trending in a
direction that if you don'tchange, you will hit a rock

(36:30):
bottom like I did, or like yousee people around you hitting.
And my job is today to show youthat the path is going there,
and you don't want to look atit, but I'm gonna make you look
at it, and we're gonna do thattogether.
And then when you ask, are youokay with that?
Is that the life you want?
80 pounds overweight, no energy,not able to play with your kids,

(36:51):
in a marriage that you can'tstand, not advancing in your
career at all, feeling stuck,bored, frustrated.
Is that the life you want?
And when someone looks right atthat in a powerful coaching
conversation and they know thetruth, they know that's not what
they want.
Now they're willing to quoteunquote get off the couch and do
something about it.
And so I think, you know, that'sa a sales principle.

(37:14):
It always has been, right?
Show people the gap.
And but I think that the truthof it is, especially in
coaching, this is a really it'sa really heartfelt process
because you're asking somebodyto look at an area of their life
that they might not want to lookat.
And um, you know, it doesn'talways happen, John.
I mean, more people say no thanyes to me.
And sometimes they don't comeback until two or three years

(37:34):
later.
I've had clients who say, Oh, Ifirst started following you on
LinkedIn back in 2020 and or2021.
And I always thought it was kindof a nonsense what you were
saying.
And now this happened in mylife, or this just happened in
my career, and I thought of you,and I need help.

SPEAKER_05 (37:49):
Love that.
And I again, I especially lovethe recognition of change
happens, you know, when we'reeither in a point of
inspiration, we recognizesomething, or at a point of
desperation, no doubt aboutthat.
Zach, our conversation's beengreat.
I could go on for a long time interms of keeping going.
How do you want folks to get intouch with you?
I heard LinkedIn, but is thereanother way that you'd prefer
they get in touch with you aswell?

SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
LinkedIn's always great.
That's where I spend the mosttime if you're a social media
person.
But if you are an engineeringmanager or in a technical career
path and this conversationspecifically resonates for you
and you'd like to explorecoaching with the Oasis of
Courage and getting help in yourcareer for promotions and
balance and lifestyle thingswe've talked about today, I

(38:30):
would love to offer a freesession for anybody who's
listened to this podcast.
So if they want to do that, justgrab your phone and send me a
text message.
It's just one word.
The word is lifestyle.
You text me the word lifestyle,and it's one of those short
codes.
The number is 5544.
So just text the word lifestyleto 5544, and I'll send you a

(38:53):
quick reply, grab your name andemail, and we'll send you a link
to book a call with me and myteam totally free.
We'll do a deep dive, see whereyou're at, and if we can help
you.

SPEAKER_05 (39:01):
Love that, Zach.
Very gracious of you to offerthat.
Hey, I want to give you the lastword.
You've been a phenomenal gueston the Uncommon Leader podcast.
I know folks are going to findvalue in it.
Always finish up with the samequestion.
Uh, we touched on this a littlebit with regards to Tim Ferris,
and I borrowed this questionfrom him, but it usually works
out pretty well.
Uh, I'm gonna give you abillboard.
You can put any message you wantto on that billboard, anywhere

(39:23):
you want to put that billboard.
What's the message given thatlimited space that you put on
that billboard, and why do youput that message on there?

SPEAKER_01 (39:30):
So the senior engineer who's not a manager yet
really wants into the program.
Four words crush comfort, createcourage.
That is the mantra of mybusiness here at the Oasis of
Courage.
It's what I challenge all of myclients to do.
It's something that I personallyseek to live by.
And what I've found, John, isthat everything I've ever deeply

(39:51):
desired in my life is not foundin my comfort zone.
It's always a step beyond.
And to get beyond your comfortzone requires.
It's going to call and demand onyou to have courage in this
life.
I think courage is the X factor.
Courage is not optional for youto reach your full potential and

(40:11):
to be happy, to live a life oflove.
So crush comfort, createcourage.

SPEAKER_05 (40:16):
Zach, so good.
Hey man, I appreciate you beinga guest on the Uncommon Leader
podcast.
I even think some of my Purduefriends are going to like this
in terms of listening in, giventhat you're a Purdue engineer.
My West Virginia folks won'thold it against you at all.
No doubt about it.
But ultimately, I'll put thelinks in the show notes.
I love that as a final messageas you finish up.
Listen up, folks, if you want tolearn more about Zach White and

(40:40):
what he has to offer, I think.

SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
That is the mantra of my business here at the Oasis
of Courage.

(41:03):
life.

SPEAKER_05 (41:19):
Zach, so good.
podcast.
No doubt about it.

(41:42):
what he has to offer.

SPEAKER_01 (41:44):
of Courage.

(42:06):
life.

SPEAKER_05 (42:22):
Zach, so good.
podcast.
No doubt about it.

(42:45):

SPEAKER_01 (42:46):
of Courage.

(43:09):
life.

SPEAKER_05 (43:25):
Zach, so good.
podcast.
No doubt about it.

(43:48):

SPEAKER_01 (43:49):
of Courage.

(44:12):
life.

SPEAKER_05 (44:28):
Zach, so good.
podcast.
No doubt about it.

(44:51):

SPEAKER_01 (44:52):
of Courage.

(45:15):
life.

SPEAKER_05 (45:30):
Zach, so good.
podcast.
No doubt about it.
But ultimately, I'll put theencourage you to go to his
website and check that out.
Certainly connect with him onLinkedIn because his content

(45:52):
that he has on there is reallygood.
You probably know someone whoheard this message and needs to
hear it.
I encourage you to share thatwith them, share this episode
with them so they hear it, andultimately it gets this message
into the hands of more and moreleaders who are looking to be
uncommon.
No doubt about that.
And look, if it is somethingthat you think you'd consider

(46:14):
doing as well, write us areview.
Let us know what you think andtag us in that review, and we'll
we'll be in touch with you tolet you know how much we
appreciate that.
Zach, once again, thanks so muchfor being a guest, and I look
forward to uh staying connectedwith you.
Best wishes to you in thefuture.
Same to you, John.
Thank you.
Till next time, go and growchampions.

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