September 26, 2023 • 35 mins
Are you ready to transform your leadership approach and sales psychology? I sat down with Mike Ferrell, author of 'Sell Like a Monk,' who walked me through his journey against the backdrop of the 2008 financial crisis, his takeaways on leadership, sales, virtues, and the toll sales can take on mental health. Mike's unique, person-centric perspective is sure to provide fresh insights and might even help reduce turnover.
As we peeled back the layers of Mike's experiences, we delved into the principles of the Benedictine approach that guided him during his challenging times. Drawing from the Rule of Benedict, Mike shares a blueprint for leading through tough times. We examined how these principles could empower salespeople, leaders, and teams to thrive in the face of adversity. These principles are not just methods; they are a philosophy for life and work.
We explored fascinating tools like the Values and Action Inventory and discussed Cameron's Heliotropic Effect - the idea that living things are drawn to positive energy. We also pondered over the distinction between leading and managing. The conversation was a refreshing take on how sales managers can transition from task management to leadership and coaching. By the end, Mike's Benedictine principles left us with tangible strategies and techniques to navigate personal and professional challenges and build stronger, healthier and more successful teams. Listen in and be part of this transformative journey!
Be sure to listen all the way through to hear how to win a free copy of Mike's book, Sell Like a Monk.
Mike's website
Sell Like a Monk
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast and I'm your host, john
Gallagher.
In today's episode, I've gotanother great guest for you at
the Monk Guy, mike Ferrell.
Mike has an incredible journeyto share as he navigates through
a personal and professionalcrisis during the financial
turmoil of 2008.
We'll hear how he battledburnout, depression and a
(00:21):
difficult divorce before findingsolace and writing a book about
his experiences.
That's not all.
Mike discovered the rule ofBenedict confounded to be a
blueprint for his book Sell Likea Monk.
Mike extracted seven principlesthat applied to leadership and
sales.
During this conversation, mikealso touched upon the challenges
(00:41):
of transitioning from asuccessful producer to a manager
, the importance ofunderstanding human behavior
through positive psychology andthe impact of virtues such as
courage, wisdom, humility,justice and magnanimity.
Say that three times fast.
Let's get started.
Mike Ferrell, welcome to theUncommon Leader Podcast.
(01:04):
It's great to have you on theshow.
How you doing today.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I'm good, John.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Absolutely.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation, learning about
your book and learning a littlebit more about you that our
listeners get a chance to hear.
I will start you, though justlike I started every other first
time guest on the podcast witha question to get to know more
about you, just to tell me astory from your childhood that
still impacts who you are as aperson or as a leader today.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Okay, I don't know that I've got a particular story
, but probably the greatestimpact that I had from my
childhood was really watching mydad my dad was in the insurance
and investment business forover 50 years and watching him
take care of his clients.
(01:51):
My dad was really really one ofthose salespeople that I really
believed in servicing versusselling.
To really watch him do that forall of those years and
especially and I can remember hewould do like barbecues and
(02:12):
stuff for his clients when I wasa kid You'd get to see him
interact with them.
It was always fascinating to methat every one of them thought
of him as their best friend, notas somebody that was just
selling something, andespecially in that industry.
I think that was really, reallyimpactful for me.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Mike, I appreciate you sharing that story.
I love how so many of thesestories impact.
They are parents that have hada positive impact on what has
shaped individuals and how itjust brings back so many cool
memories.
Frankly as you talk about thatservice, it leads right into the
main topic of our conversationtoday.
That's the book that you'veauthored.
(02:56):
It just came out in May of thisyear, called Sell Like a Month
Timeless rules for modernselling.
It had rules and quotes.
Tell me a little bit of thestory behind this book, and
maybe it's a story about you aswell.
Why did you write this book?
Who did you write this book for?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Well, I've spent 35 years now, I think, working with
salespeople, salesorganizations and leaders.
Over that period of time, I'veseen a significant shift in my
thoughts versus the way mostsales organizations do things.
(03:35):
I think, if you look at it, Istart out in the first chapter
in the book and I talk aboutmost sales organizations most
sales processes really focus onam I seeing enough people?
Am I making enough calls?
Am I doing enough presentations?
Am I closing enough sales?
If I do all of those numbers,then I'm going to be successful.
(04:00):
If I'm successful, then I'mgoing to be happy.
As I've worked over the yearsand I've worked with high
performers and all the way downto newbies I think that we've
got it backwards.
I think that if we start withthe individual and make sure
(04:22):
that they understand their ownGod-given strengths, gifts and
talents and allow them toflourish that way in a system
that's flexible enough for themto use them, then I believe we
have a greater chance of successin that profession.
I think if you look at thesales profession today and this
is across all industries there'sa turnover rate of almost 40%.
(04:46):
Compare that to other jobs outthere.
It's extremely.
It's much, much higher than anyother job out there.
When you start looking atspecific industries I've spent
many, many years working in thefinancial services area If you
look at that industry and 85% ofthe people that start a job in
(05:07):
that industry today will be gonein two years you think about it
from a company standpoint, froman organizational standpoint.
The amount of money.
They're spending billions ofdollars replacing these people.
And yet if we look at the waythat they're recruiting, they're
hiring, they're training,they're managing, they're doing
(05:29):
it the same way they've beendoing it for 50 years.
It's the numbers game and Ithink the numbers game is broken
and that really is what kind ofled to the writing of the book
and then obviously beingintroduced to this whole
benedictive approach to work andsales and then also leadership.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Look, I can't read to talk about that too.
I want to put a pin in thebenedictive approach.
But I wanted to touch onsomething you mentioned 85% in a
specific industry won't even bearound in two years.
You also mentioned a 40%turnover rate.
That turnover rate, I want toassume isn't always the turnover
rate because they're notperforming, but that it has to
(06:12):
be the stress level.
Now, inside of some of yourliterature you talk about the
three primary drivers as mentalhealth problems for sales
professionals in this space.
Tell me, talk to me a littlebit more about you know, that
piece of the turnover.
I may be a little bit about how, again, how so, like a month,
your person-centric approach canbe helpful to that and reduce
(06:32):
the number.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Well, and I'll start with, before I get into that,
those areas and statistics.
I'll start with, kind of youknow my in the very beginning of
the book I talked about some ofthe things that I've learned
over these 35 years and inworking with salespeople and
sales organizations as thenumber one.
Sales is hard, it's not easyand most of the time it's made
(06:55):
harder by poor management.
And then, secondly, greatsalespeople typically don't make
great sales managers.
You're talking about twocompletely different skill sets.
And then the other piece isthat we can't clone great
salespeople.
I've had the privilege to workwith some of the highest
(07:15):
performers across variousindustries and they all do it
different.
You know, they all have adifferent way of succeeding.
And I think when we look atthese, and if you look at the
way companies create thesemetrics, they're typically based
on their high performers.
Well, these high performers, inmost cases they're doing things
(07:37):
a little bit differently.
So, with that being said, toget to your question, john, we
look at, you know, the thingsthat are going on.
The sales health alliance hasdone a lot of research on sales
and kind of how it's impactingmental health, and what we know
is that these mental healthissues of 65% of salespeople
(08:02):
report that they're sufferingsome type of mental health issue
, whether it's anxiety or stressor depression or whatever the
case may be, and they attributethat to number one,
micromanaging by their managers.
Number two, not hitting targets.
And number three, working withother demotivated salespeople.
(08:25):
And so if you look at that kindof culture, if you look at
what's being done, I thinkculture might be one of the most
abused terms in the businessworld today, but I'll use it
here because I think it's thatsales culture that is leading to
(08:45):
this turnover rate and thisdissatisfaction, and I read an
article just this morning thatsays that this dissatisfaction
and disenchantment anddisengagement with job roles has
even accelerated just in thelast two years.
And so I think it's time thatsales organizations and
(09:08):
salespeople think about adifferent model.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Mike, you touched on those, that is.
First of all, thank you forsharing that.
As I listened through that, Ihad a very specific person that
came to my mind here when yousaid great salespeople don't
always make great sales managersand there are actually, in and
of itself, the stress of, hey,this person's a great sales
person.
(09:32):
They must make a great salesmanager then and everybody will
start to be better.
Yet that person, who's I knowthey'll be listening in and
hearing this and they'll call mewhen it's done has said really,
I have no desire to be a salesmanager, but they keep asking me
to be a sales manager.
I just love being a great salesperson and approach to the user
and building relationships withhis customers and things like
(09:52):
that.
And, mike, you gotta know he wasthe one I shared the book with
as well, as he's going down thisjourney.
So I get.
I look forward to talking tohim about both these things as
he went through that.
So I appreciate you sharingthat.
I appreciate you sharing, asyou said, some of the reasons as
well those drivers, thosemental health problems, because
that doesn't just exist in salespositions.
But I can understand why.
(10:13):
Sales, you're exactly right,sales is a hard job to do.
You can break it down into easydisciplines over and over again
to your point.
If you just get the numbers,it'll happen.
But even in and of itself thatcan be a stressful process to
get the numbers to make thecalls to you know to know all
the time and you know you hearno more than anybody else in the
industry.
(10:33):
So that's very important tounderstand.
So you wrote this book based ona series of seven principles.
Let's come back to theBenedictine approach.
Tell me a little bit whetheryou may not get to talk about
all seven principles, but tellme a little bit about how you
came up with those sevenprinciples inside of the book?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Sure, and I think what I'll do, john, is I'll kind
of give you how I got to thiswhole Benedictine approach.
First, because it was a journeythat's taken several years, and
I tell the story when I speakthat on September 15th 2008, I
was on a flight from Minneapolisto Charlotte and I got off the
(11:09):
plane at about 9.15 that morningand as I turned on my
Blackberry when I got off theplane, it blew up.
There were messages and textsand all kinds of stuff, and as I
walked into the terminal there,there were people gathered all
around the TVs and, of course,your first thought at that point
is oh my God, did we haveanother 9.11?
Well, as I listened a littlebit more, about 45 minutes prior
(11:33):
to that, lehman Brothers hadfiled bankruptcy and kind of the
official start to the financialcrisis of 2008,.
There had been a lot of otherthings that had happened prior
to that, but that was sort ofthe official start.
And so what happened over thosenext really two and a half to
three years?
And at that point I was workingwith 37 community banks, 17
(11:57):
brokerage companies and about120 financial advisors and I
spent the next two to threeyears really first talking them
off ledges and then navigatingthis crisis and navigating
number one how they can surviveand, in some cases, how they can
(12:18):
thrive and over that threeyears it took its toll on me.
By the time I got to 2012, I wasburnt out, I was suffering from
depression.
I went through a difficultdivorce in 2013 and really kind
of shut down my business andsaid, you know, I don't want to
do this stuff anymore and kindof, you know, went through the
(12:43):
next couple of years wanderingaimlessly and went to some
places that I don't really careto go to ever again.
But but as I came out of that,I thought you know what?
I want to write a book aboutthis?
I want to talk about areflection on what I found
during that crisis, and so thatwas actually my second book that
(13:04):
I wrote, and that one wascalled the Sweet Spot, where
business strategy, faithprinciples and positive
psychology converge, and it wasreally this idea of how do we
lead through crisis.
And so as I was working on thatbook, I was introduced to this
rule of Benedict, and Benedictwas a monk back in the in the
(13:30):
fifth century.
He was.
He wrote this little and it's ashort little 73 chapter book,
the chap.
Some of the chapters are only acouple of paragraphs, and it
was really a blueprint for howwe live and work in community.
And as he wrote this it beganto kind of take hold.
(13:52):
This was this was right.
After the fall of Rome, theworld is in chaos, you know, we
think things are in chaos now,probably a lot worse than than
that it is now, you know, andbut a couple of centuries later,
charlemagne would actually takethis document and instill it
into most of the institutions,the governments, the education
(14:14):
system in Western Europe, and soBenedict has often been called
the father of Westerncivilization.
So he created this rule.
Well, I got a hold of this ruleand I began to really study it
and read it and begin to pullprinciples out of it, first for
leadership, because it was aprogram that I was working on
for a university here, but then,also, looking at it from a
(14:35):
standpoint, these sameprinciples really apply to sales
as well.
And so I seven principles outof the rule that really
resonated both for leaders andfor salespeople, and so that's
really kind of where I startedthe book with these seven
principles, what I call monkprinciples, that that came out
(14:59):
of that book.
So the seven of them are what Icall the rule of leading
oneself, which is really allabout virtue and character, and
the second one is the rule ofstrengths or talents, which is
about our own God givenstrengths and talents.
The third one is higher purposeand vision, which is really
understanding what our higherpurpose is and having a vision
(15:21):
for what we want to accomplish.
And then those are what I callthe inner game of selling.
So those are the mental, thehead and heart part of what we
do.
And then the connector piece isthe rule of excellence, which
is really understanding our ownstory, our own branding, and
putting it into a framework thatallows us to take it to the
(15:43):
outer game of selling, which isthat exterior approach.
And there we talk about the ruleof order and stability, which
is really a sales process.
It's a sales process and Ithink too many sales
organizations and companies andsales people get it backwards.
They try and sell somebodyfirst and then make them a
(16:04):
client or a customer.
And I think if we build arelationship first and then get
them to the point, I just did aI think you saw my email that I
do once a week that I sent outand I talk about.
You know, it's not a matter ofhow many times we ask somebody
to buy, it's a matter of askingat the right time, and that rule
(16:27):
of order and stability reallytalks about that.
And then the rule of communityis really how do we impact
others around us?
The other, you know, we talkabout that number of working
with disenchanted coworkers andsalespeople.
You know what are the things inthat rule of community that
says let's focus on our salesteams, let's focus on our other
(16:50):
vendors, let's focus on ourother stakeholders as well as
our customers.
And then the last rule is therule of hospitality, and really
this is an idea of moving beyondcustomer service to what I call
radical hospitality.
And so those were those sevenprinciples that I pulled out of
the rule and those are theprinciples that I talk about in
(17:10):
the book.
And then there's an eighth one,which really focuses more on
sales leaders and managers.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share
something special with you.
Many of the topics anddiscussions we have on this
podcast are areas where Iprovide coaching and consulting
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If you've been inspired by ourconversation and are seeking a
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invite you to visitcoachjohngallaghercom forward
(17:41):
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It's an opportunity for us toconnect, discuss your unique
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benefit you and your team.
I'm here to equip you andencourage you every step of the
way.
Okay, let's get back to theshow.
Mike, I love that.
(18:03):
I love the connector as well, interms of how you go through
that and the inner and the outerpiece of it.
I mean the picture.
While I can't necessarily showit, obviously, on the audio, I'd
love to see if I can figure outa way to put the picture in the
notes.
The Venn diagram of the overlap.
I am curious just to maybe divea little bit deeper on one or
two of them, because I was, as Iread through Bruce, through the
(18:25):
book, and looked at the rule ofleading oneself, how virtual
character and positive behaviorscan factor in developing the
salesperson.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat.
Go deeper on that in terms ofleading one, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Well, it really starts with this whole idea of
virtue, of virtuousness, in thatand this goes back to ancient
philosophy, this goes back toAristotle the good life and what
it is to live.
The good life he talks aboutvirtue, and virtue is really
what is it that we can do inorder to be virtuous and to do
(19:04):
good and to live good?
Out of that, I identified fivewhat I call sales virtues.
They are courage.
Obviously, a salesperson hasgot to have courage to step up
and do the job every single day.
Wisdom, which we need to havein order to understand when and
when not to do and say certainthings.
(19:25):
Okay, go first Grasso.
Humility, which is the wholeidea of sales, service versus
sales, you know.
Justice, which is reallyunderstanding, doing things
right.
And then the last one wasmagnanimity.
I love that word magnanimity,love it too.
(19:46):
And it's really seeing thegreatness in others.
And if we think about it from asales perspective, rather than
trying to attain greatnessourselves, if we see the
greatness in others that weserve, it allows us to move
beyond that idea of theself-centered sales approach.
(20:07):
So those are the sales virtuesthat I really touch on in the
book.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Mike, I appreciate you sharing that.
Again, as I listen through, Ican see you teaching this as
well and going forward.
I don't want to try to saymagnanimity I don't know if I
said that right or not.
I'm not going to say greatnessin others.
It's a couple other words likethat that I've had to use
recently that I get my tonguetangled up with.
No doubt about it.
And when you think about howyou now teach this approach to
(20:38):
sales individuals, as you'recoaching, maybe to sales groups
or organizations, can you sharewith us you know, without giving
away who it is can you sharewith us a success story
utilizing this approach, howsomeone's been able to transform
their sales themselves andorganizations using it?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, and I think the thing about it is, and probably
the last 12 years I've usedthis approach, I actually put
the framework to it in the lastfour or five years, but I've
been using the same approach forquite some time and if I look
at those organizations andsalespeople that I've been able
(21:18):
to coach over the last, you know, a dozen years or so, the
results can speak for themselves.
You know, I think, a lot oftime, especially in the sales
coaching environment, wetypically will work with
somebody for six months, maybe ayear, and after that it kind of
gets, you know, it gets stale.
Well, you know, a lot of myclients average 2.7 years, okay,
(21:42):
which is, you know, unheard of,I think, in, especially in
sales coaching, leadershipcoaching maybe not so much, but.
And then the other thing is,you know, the organizations that
I've worked with have been ableto average a 17% growth rate,
and when you start looking atthose numbers, those are some
significant numbers.
(22:03):
Again, I think the challenge isto get them to rethink the way
that they do sales.
And that's really, you know,there's a great book out there
by Adam Grant called Think Again, and he really talks about this
whole idea of how we rethink.
You know, we typically thinklike the preacher, the
(22:23):
prosecutor or the politician,you know, in that we're trying
to get people to either buy intoour ideas, you know, we're
trying to convince them.
I kind of use the example of mygrandson, you know, first,
first I try and convince him ofthe merits of doing something a
certain way.
Then I try and tell him that ifhe doesn't do it he's in
(22:44):
trouble, you know.
And then finally you give inand you bribe him and say I'll
give you a candy bar if you doit.
You know, it's kind of thatapproach, you know, and Grant
says that instead we shouldthink about it from the
standpoint of a scientist or aphilosopher, in that we doubt
everything that we know, whichdrives curiosity.
(23:06):
We begin to be curious aboutwhat we don't know.
We have the humility tounderstand that we're not right,
and then that leads todiscovery.
And I think we can use thatapproach in a whole bunch of
different things in societytoday.
But I think that for salesorganizations it's really
important that they understandthat you've got it.
(23:28):
I mean, we've been doing thesame way for decades and you got
to rethink how you do it.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
That's the second time I've heard that book think
again the past two weeks as asuggestion, I'm going to have to
add that to my list.
It'll be in my Amazon orderbucket here soon.
My wife's been looking at toomany boxes.
When she comes.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Oh yeah, I get that every day.
He was just here this morning.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
So we have kind of those seven principles and
that's how you use it to teachthe managers.
But you also talk about that.
You know that rule at the end,or at least an approach, but how
have you also trained theleaders?
So this is a group of uncommonleaders that are listening in,
that want to become better.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Right.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
And how are you training leaders to be better
sales managers, better managersof sales leaders, of salespeople
, to be successful?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, I think number one is understanding that we
have to create a flexible enoughsystem or process to allow our
salespeople to flourish usingtheir own God-given strengths,
gifts and talents.
You know, just quickly, goingback to that rule of leading
oneself, you've got the virtuepiece of it, you've got the
(24:38):
character piece, character, andthe positive behavior really
falls into that area of positivepsychology.
And positive psychology is arelatively new science.
It's only been around since thelate 90s, but it really takes.
Prior to that, psychologyreally took a person that was
negative 10 and figured out howto get them to zero, and Martin
(25:00):
Seligman, who's kind of known asthe Godfather of positive
psychology, said that we need tobe looking at taking somebody
that's at zero and getting themto positive, to plus 10.
And that's the whole approachthat positive psychology uses.
So but the interesting thingabout positive psychology is
when you really study it, it'sall based on virtue.
In fact, he created an entireclassification of 24 character
(25:24):
strengths and they're broken upinto six different virtues.
So even though the you know thepsychology piece, you know the
scientists of course would neversay that they want to be
associated with the philosophersand the theologians, but in
reality that's where theirfoundation is.
But if you take that andthere's some great tools that I
(25:44):
use one is called the values andaction inventory, which is
Seligman's tool that hedeveloped.
It's out of the University ofPennsylvania and it's a great
tool it assesses your top 24character strengths and once you
know those strengths and youknow especially you know those
top five to eight it allows youto look at that and say, ok, how
(26:05):
am I selling?
Or, from a leadershipstandpoint, how are my people
selling?
Or how should they be sellingin order to be the best that
they can be.
And then also looking atpositive behaviors, and positive
behaviors really comes from thethought process or the thought
(26:25):
leadership of Kim Cameron andBob Quinn at the University of
Michigan Ross School of Business.
And Cameron talks about what hesays is the heliotropic effect.
And the heliotropic effect andI use the example I'm here in
South Dakota and I use theexample if you drive down a
country road in South Dakota inAugust at eight o'clock in the
morning and there's a field ofsunflowers to your right, all
(26:48):
the sunflowers are going to bepointing to the east.
And if you drive back by thatsame sunflower field at four
o'clock in the afternoon, allthe sunflowers have turned and
they're going to be pointing tothe west.
They follow the sun.
That's the heliotropic effect,and all living things are
attracted to that positiveenergy and that positive light.
And so when we look at positivebehaviors, positive sales
(27:10):
behaviors, we look at thingslike empathy and compassion,
optimism, grit, you know,certainly you've got to have
some perseverance to be in sales, you know and those kinds of
things.
So by measuring those, byunderstanding our character,
strengths and the sales virtues,it allows us as managers or as
(27:32):
leaders, to really put people ina place where they can succeed.
And then, rather than and again, I think what I really talk
about in the book with thisleaders and sales managers thing
, is that it's two differenthats that you wear.
Unfortunately, most salesmanagers wear the hat that all
(27:53):
they're doing is managing tasks.
You know, did you do this, didyou do that?
Did you do this?
You know you and I are both,you know, fans of Rory Vaden,
and Rory talks about shouldheads, you know.
And you should have done thisyou should have done this or
that or whatever you know.
And I think if we take thatmanaging hat off and put on a
(28:16):
leading hat instead and be moreof a coaching and mentoring
approach versus this managing oftasks approach, then we begin
to allow people to work in this,in this process, using these
principles to flourish.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Mike I appreciate that it goes all the way back to
your statement really about notall sales managers make great
excuse me, not all sales peoplemake great sales managers and
ultimately leading to if you, ifyou have a sales manager,
doesn't have those virtues andempathy built in, they're going
to want everybody to work justlike they did and you're going
to assume that everybody's goingto work just like that person.
Yet, with these differentcharacter traits, the leader has
(28:55):
to understand those and be ableto understand.
Yes, the tasks are veryimportant, but to get the best
out of that person, you got tobe able to motivate and inspire
and encourage them in adifferent way.
They do things better in adifferent, a different way of
times, based on those charactertraits.
So I appreciate that and Iactually think, as I listen to
that it just makes that evenmore clear about kind of that,
(29:17):
that salespeople and what thatreally means.
Mike, I think I wish you thebest on the book I want to talk
to actually get the listeners tolearn a little bit more about
you.
And now I got to tell you therewas one thing when I looked,
when I read your LinkedInprofile.
I mean, obviously, the salesexperiences there and those
types of things are there, butfrom a personal standpoint,
you've already taught me theword magnanimity and I said that
(29:37):
one, but there's another wordthat was in there that I didn't
know what it was.
Is it defined who you are?
You're a leader, you're a coach, you're a trainer and you're a
benedictine oblate.
Right, sorry, I didn't look itup yet, but tell me, tell the
listeners, what is a benedictineoblate?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Well, a benedictine oblate is really an individual
that has studied and learned therule and then committed their
life to living the rule.
And so you go through a processit's typically a two year
process to really learn the ruleand understand it and that kind
of thing and then you take avow to uphold that rule, live it
(30:18):
in your life, and you take avow also then to a particular
monastery or priory or whateverit is.
I happen to be connected withthe monastery, the Sacred Heart
Monastery in Yankton, southDakota.
That's where I took my vows tobecome a benedictine oblate.
So it really is just, and itreally is one of those things
(30:39):
the rule has so impacted my life, not just from a work
environment, but from a familyenvironment, from a social
environment.
It really is.
It is this idea of you know theyuse benedict, uses the term
aura at labor, which means workand prayer, and it really is
(31:00):
this idea of living in balanceand that approach and as I apply
it to the work that I do withleaders, as I apply it to the
work that I do with salespeople,to really live it out and walk
the walk, I think is reallyimportant.
And I think the other thing itreally does is it allows me to
(31:24):
really talk on a deeper levelwith leaders of organizations
you know I talk about on mywebsite.
I talk about that I work withfaith-connected organizations
and leaders and not and I thinkthe faith-connected piece is I
use the word connectedintentionally it's not that it's
(31:47):
a particular connection to areligion or any of those kinds
of things, but it's somebodythat has that belief and that
connection in their faith andunderstands that that's an
important aspect of success.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Absolutely, and it goes all the way back to that
person-centric, wholeperson-centric approach that you
talk about.
I can see that.
I can hear that in your voice,mike, I can understand as you
teach it and I appreciate yousharing that with the listeners
as well.
Mike, you've been very generouswith your time today.
I just have a couple morequestions.
One of them is folks are goingto want to stay in touch with
(32:23):
you.
No doubt about it in terms oflearning, absolutely.
What's the best way for them tostay in touch with you?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Well, the easiest way is just to go to my website,
and it's an easy onethemunkguycom.
You know, as part of our work,you know, with with brand
builders, I kind of went througha whole rebrand here over the
last several months and andthanks to them, came up with the
monitor moniker themunkguy.
(32:47):
And so themunkguycom is theeasiest place to to find my
website, and I will even throwin a little, a little caveat
there, or a little incentivethere, john First two people to
go to that website and sign upfor the newsletter that I do the
monk principles two plus oneyou can go down and scroll down
to the bottom of the home pageand there's a form there.
(33:09):
First two people to do it fromyour podcast, I'll send them a
copy of the book.
Sell like a muck.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Excellent.
No, I appreciate that,listeners.
hey, when there's every free,free, incentives, you got to pay
attention and get that throughwe save that to the end, and
especially those of you all thestate all the way through this
to hear it through.
That's awesome, mike.
Again, I so appreciate yourtime today.
I'll finish you with the lastquestion that I always finish
with First time listeners andopportunity again to learn more
about you, but I'm going to giveyou a billboard.
I may know something actuallyis going to be on this thing.
(33:37):
I don't know, you may havealready said it, but I'm going
to give you a billboard.
You can put it anywhere youwant to.
In South Dakota there might notbe millions going by it, but
maybe you put it somewhere elseas you're traveling around, as
you go through.
You can put anything you wantto on that billboard, though,
any message that you want to.
What do you put on thatbillboard and why?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
You know, I think I put on that billboard the same
thing that I put on the t-shirtsthat I give away on the front
of them mission driven by muckprinciples.
It's that idea that says we dothings on a very different level
using these muck principles,whether that's leading, whether
that's selling, whether that'sworking, whether that's living
(34:14):
in community.
I think these muck principlesgive, and our world needs this,
John, it needs this desperately.
I think that if we really lookat these muck principles and how
they work, not only in salesand leadership but in life in
general, I think our world wouldbe a better place.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Mike Drop-Omen.
Thank you very much, mikeFarrell, for joining the
Uncommon Leader Podcast.
Let's stay in touch, okay, andI wish you the best.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Sounds great, John.
I appreciate the time.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
And that wraps up another episode of the Uncommon
Leader Podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate it if you
could leave a rating and reviewon your favorite podcast
platform.
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
(35:10):
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
Uncommon Leaders.
Until next time, go and growChampions.
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast and I'm your host, john
Gallagher.
In today's episode, I've gotanother great guest for you at
the Monk Guy, mike Ferrell.
Mike has an incredible journeyto share as he navigates through
a personal and professionalcrisis during the financial
turmoil of 2008.
We'll hear how he battledburnout, depression and a
(00:21):
difficult divorce before findingsolace and writing a book about
his experiences.
That's not all.
Mike discovered the rule ofBenedict confounded to be a
blueprint for his book Sell Likea Monk.
Mike extracted seven principlesthat applied to leadership and
sales.
During this conversation, mikealso touched upon the challenges
(00:41):
of transitioning from asuccessful producer to a manager
, the importance ofunderstanding human behavior
through positive psychology andthe impact of virtues such as
courage, wisdom, humility,justice and magnanimity.
Say that three times fast.
Let's get started.
Mike Ferrell, welcome to theUncommon Leader Podcast.
(01:04):
It's great to have you on theshow.
How you doing today.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I'm good, John.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Absolutely.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation, learning about
your book and learning a littlebit more about you that our
listeners get a chance to hear.
I will start you, though justlike I started every other first
time guest on the podcast witha question to get to know more
about you, just to tell me astory from your childhood that
still impacts who you are as aperson or as a leader today.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Okay, I don't know that I've got a particular story
, but probably the greatestimpact that I had from my
childhood was really watching mydad my dad was in the insurance
and investment business forover 50 years and watching him
take care of his clients.
(01:51):
My dad was really really one ofthose salespeople that I really
believed in servicing versusselling.
To really watch him do that forall of those years and
especially and I can remember hewould do like barbecues and
(02:12):
stuff for his clients when I wasa kid You'd get to see him
interact with them.
It was always fascinating to methat every one of them thought
of him as their best friend, notas somebody that was just
selling something, andespecially in that industry.
I think that was really, reallyimpactful for me.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Mike, I appreciate you sharing that story.
I love how so many of thesestories impact.
They are parents that have hada positive impact on what has
shaped individuals and how itjust brings back so many cool
memories.
Frankly as you talk about thatservice, it leads right into the
main topic of our conversationtoday.
That's the book that you'veauthored.
(02:56):
It just came out in May of thisyear, called Sell Like a Month
Timeless rules for modernselling.
It had rules and quotes.
Tell me a little bit of thestory behind this book, and
maybe it's a story about you aswell.
Why did you write this book?
Who did you write this book for?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Well, I've spent 35 years now, I think, working with
salespeople, salesorganizations and leaders.
Over that period of time, I'veseen a significant shift in my
thoughts versus the way mostsales organizations do things.
(03:35):
I think, if you look at it, Istart out in the first chapter
in the book and I talk aboutmost sales organizations most
sales processes really focus onam I seeing enough people?
Am I making enough calls?
Am I doing enough presentations?
Am I closing enough sales?
If I do all of those numbers,then I'm going to be successful.
(04:00):
If I'm successful, then I'mgoing to be happy.
As I've worked over the yearsand I've worked with high
performers and all the way downto newbies I think that we've
got it backwards.
I think that if we start withthe individual and make sure
(04:22):
that they understand their ownGod-given strengths, gifts and
talents and allow them toflourish that way in a system
that's flexible enough for themto use them, then I believe we
have a greater chance of successin that profession.
I think if you look at thesales profession today and this
is across all industries there'sa turnover rate of almost 40%.
(04:46):
Compare that to other jobs outthere.
It's extremely.
It's much, much higher than anyother job out there.
When you start looking atspecific industries I've spent
many, many years working in thefinancial services area If you
look at that industry and 85% ofthe people that start a job in
(05:07):
that industry today will be gonein two years you think about it
from a company standpoint, froman organizational standpoint.
The amount of money.
They're spending billions ofdollars replacing these people.
And yet if we look at the waythat they're recruiting, they're
hiring, they're training,they're managing, they're doing
(05:29):
it the same way they've beendoing it for 50 years.
It's the numbers game and Ithink the numbers game is broken
and that really is what kind ofled to the writing of the book
and then obviously beingintroduced to this whole
benedictive approach to work andsales and then also leadership.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Look, I can't read to talk about that too.
I want to put a pin in thebenedictive approach.
But I wanted to touch onsomething you mentioned 85% in a
specific industry won't even bearound in two years.
You also mentioned a 40%turnover rate.
That turnover rate, I want toassume isn't always the turnover
rate because they're notperforming, but that it has to
(06:12):
be the stress level.
Now, inside of some of yourliterature you talk about the
three primary drivers as mentalhealth problems for sales
professionals in this space.
Tell me, talk to me a littlebit more about you know, that
piece of the turnover.
I may be a little bit about how, again, how so, like a month,
your person-centric approach canbe helpful to that and reduce
(06:32):
the number.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Well, and I'll start with, before I get into that,
those areas and statistics.
I'll start with, kind of youknow my in the very beginning of
the book I talked about some ofthe things that I've learned
over these 35 years and inworking with salespeople and
sales organizations as thenumber one.
Sales is hard, it's not easyand most of the time it's made
(06:55):
harder by poor management.
And then, secondly, greatsalespeople typically don't make
great sales managers.
You're talking about twocompletely different skill sets.
And then the other piece isthat we can't clone great
salespeople.
I've had the privilege to workwith some of the highest
(07:15):
performers across variousindustries and they all do it
different.
You know, they all have adifferent way of succeeding.
And I think when we look atthese, and if you look at the
way companies create thesemetrics, they're typically based
on their high performers.
Well, these high performers, inmost cases they're doing things
(07:37):
a little bit differently.
So, with that being said, toget to your question, john, we
look at, you know, the thingsthat are going on.
The sales health alliance hasdone a lot of research on sales
and kind of how it's impactingmental health, and what we know
is that these mental healthissues of 65% of salespeople
(08:02):
report that they're sufferingsome type of mental health issue
, whether it's anxiety or stressor depression or whatever the
case may be, and they attributethat to number one,
micromanaging by their managers.
Number two, not hitting targets.
And number three, working withother demotivated salespeople.
(08:25):
And so if you look at that kindof culture, if you look at
what's being done, I thinkculture might be one of the most
abused terms in the businessworld today, but I'll use it
here because I think it's thatsales culture that is leading to
(08:45):
this turnover rate and thisdissatisfaction, and I read an
article just this morning thatsays that this dissatisfaction
and disenchantment anddisengagement with job roles has
even accelerated just in thelast two years.
And so I think it's time thatsales organizations and
(09:08):
salespeople think about adifferent model.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Mike, you touched on those, that is.
First of all, thank you forsharing that.
As I listened through that, Ihad a very specific person that
came to my mind here when yousaid great salespeople don't
always make great sales managersand there are actually, in and
of itself, the stress of, hey,this person's a great sales
person.
(09:32):
They must make a great salesmanager then and everybody will
start to be better.
Yet that person, who's I knowthey'll be listening in and
hearing this and they'll call mewhen it's done has said really,
I have no desire to be a salesmanager, but they keep asking me
to be a sales manager.
I just love being a great salesperson and approach to the user
and building relationships withhis customers and things like
(09:52):
that.
And, mike, you gotta know he wasthe one I shared the book with
as well, as he's going down thisjourney.
So I get.
I look forward to talking tohim about both these things as
he went through that.
So I appreciate you sharingthat.
I appreciate you sharing, asyou said, some of the reasons as
well those drivers, thosemental health problems, because
that doesn't just exist in salespositions.
But I can understand why.
(10:13):
Sales, you're exactly right,sales is a hard job to do.
You can break it down into easydisciplines over and over again
to your point.
If you just get the numbers,it'll happen.
But even in and of itself thatcan be a stressful process to
get the numbers to make thecalls to you know to know all
the time and you know you hearno more than anybody else in the
industry.
(10:33):
So that's very important tounderstand.
So you wrote this book based ona series of seven principles.
Let's come back to theBenedictine approach.
Tell me a little bit whetheryou may not get to talk about
all seven principles, but tellme a little bit about how you
came up with those sevenprinciples inside of the book?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Sure, and I think what I'll do, john, is I'll kind
of give you how I got to thiswhole Benedictine approach.
First, because it was a journeythat's taken several years, and
I tell the story when I speakthat on September 15th 2008, I
was on a flight from Minneapolisto Charlotte and I got off the
(11:09):
plane at about 9.15 that morningand as I turned on my
Blackberry when I got off theplane, it blew up.
There were messages and textsand all kinds of stuff, and as I
walked into the terminal there,there were people gathered all
around the TVs and, of course,your first thought at that point
is oh my God, did we haveanother 9.11?
Well, as I listened a littlebit more, about 45 minutes prior
(11:33):
to that, lehman Brothers hadfiled bankruptcy and kind of the
official start to the financialcrisis of 2008,.
There had been a lot of otherthings that had happened prior
to that, but that was sort ofthe official start.
And so what happened over thosenext really two and a half to
three years?
And at that point I was workingwith 37 community banks, 17
(11:57):
brokerage companies and about120 financial advisors and I
spent the next two to threeyears really first talking them
off ledges and then navigatingthis crisis and navigating
number one how they can surviveand, in some cases, how they can
(12:18):
thrive and over that threeyears it took its toll on me.
By the time I got to 2012, I wasburnt out, I was suffering from
depression.
I went through a difficultdivorce in 2013 and really kind
of shut down my business andsaid, you know, I don't want to
do this stuff anymore and kindof, you know, went through the
(12:43):
next couple of years wanderingaimlessly and went to some
places that I don't really careto go to ever again.
But but as I came out of that,I thought you know what?
I want to write a book aboutthis?
I want to talk about areflection on what I found
during that crisis, and so thatwas actually my second book that
(13:04):
I wrote, and that one wascalled the Sweet Spot, where
business strategy, faithprinciples and positive
psychology converge, and it wasreally this idea of how do we
lead through crisis.
And so as I was working on thatbook, I was introduced to this
rule of Benedict, and Benedictwas a monk back in the in the
(13:30):
fifth century.
He was.
He wrote this little and it's ashort little 73 chapter book,
the chap.
Some of the chapters are only acouple of paragraphs, and it
was really a blueprint for howwe live and work in community.
And as he wrote this it beganto kind of take hold.
(13:52):
This was this was right.
After the fall of Rome, theworld is in chaos, you know, we
think things are in chaos now,probably a lot worse than than
that it is now, you know, andbut a couple of centuries later,
charlemagne would actually takethis document and instill it
into most of the institutions,the governments, the education
(14:14):
system in Western Europe, and soBenedict has often been called
the father of Westerncivilization.
So he created this rule.
Well, I got a hold of this ruleand I began to really study it
and read it and begin to pullprinciples out of it, first for
leadership, because it was aprogram that I was working on
for a university here, but then,also, looking at it from a
(14:35):
standpoint, these sameprinciples really apply to sales
as well.
And so I seven principles outof the rule that really
resonated both for leaders andfor salespeople, and so that's
really kind of where I startedthe book with these seven
principles, what I call monkprinciples, that that came out
(14:59):
of that book.
So the seven of them are what Icall the rule of leading
oneself, which is really allabout virtue and character, and
the second one is the rule ofstrengths or talents, which is
about our own God givenstrengths and talents.
The third one is higher purposeand vision, which is really
understanding what our higherpurpose is and having a vision
(15:21):
for what we want to accomplish.
And then those are what I callthe inner game of selling.
So those are the mental, thehead and heart part of what we
do.
And then the connector piece isthe rule of excellence, which
is really understanding our ownstory, our own branding, and
putting it into a framework thatallows us to take it to the
(15:43):
outer game of selling, which isthat exterior approach.
And there we talk about the ruleof order and stability, which
is really a sales process.
It's a sales process and Ithink too many sales
organizations and companies andsales people get it backwards.
They try and sell somebodyfirst and then make them a
(16:04):
client or a customer.
And I think if we build arelationship first and then get
them to the point, I just did aI think you saw my email that I
do once a week that I sent outand I talk about.
You know, it's not a matter ofhow many times we ask somebody
to buy, it's a matter of askingat the right time, and that rule
(16:27):
of order and stability reallytalks about that.
And then the rule of communityis really how do we impact
others around us?
The other, you know, we talkabout that number of working
with disenchanted coworkers andsalespeople.
You know what are the things inthat rule of community that
says let's focus on our salesteams, let's focus on our other
(16:50):
vendors, let's focus on ourother stakeholders as well as
our customers.
And then the last rule is therule of hospitality, and really
this is an idea of moving beyondcustomer service to what I call
radical hospitality.
And so those were those sevenprinciples that I pulled out of
the rule and those are theprinciples that I talk about in
(17:10):
the book.
And then there's an eighth one,which really focuses more on
sales leaders and managers.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share
something special with you.
Many of the topics anddiscussions we have on this
podcast are areas where Iprovide coaching and consulting
services for individuals andorganizations.
If you've been inspired by ourconversation and are seeking a
catalyst for change in your ownlife or within your team, I
invite you to visitcoachjohngallaghercom forward
(17:41):
slash free call to sign up for afree coaching call with me.
It's an opportunity for us toconnect, discuss your unique
challenges and explore howcoaching or consulting can
benefit you and your team.
I'm here to equip you andencourage you every step of the
way.
Okay, let's get back to theshow.
Mike, I love that.
(18:03):
I love the connector as well, interms of how you go through
that and the inner and the outerpiece of it.
I mean the picture.
While I can't necessarily showit, obviously, on the audio, I'd
love to see if I can figure outa way to put the picture in the
notes.
The Venn diagram of the overlap.
I am curious just to maybe divea little bit deeper on one or
two of them, because I was, as Iread through Bruce, through the
(18:25):
book, and looked at the rule ofleading oneself, how virtual
character and positive behaviorscan factor in developing the
salesperson.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat.
Go deeper on that in terms ofleading one, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Well, it really starts with this whole idea of
virtue, of virtuousness, in thatand this goes back to ancient
philosophy, this goes back toAristotle the good life and what
it is to live.
The good life he talks aboutvirtue, and virtue is really
what is it that we can do inorder to be virtuous and to do
(19:04):
good and to live good?
Out of that, I identified fivewhat I call sales virtues.
They are courage.
Obviously, a salesperson hasgot to have courage to step up
and do the job every single day.
Wisdom, which we need to havein order to understand when and
when not to do and say certainthings.
(19:25):
Okay, go first Grasso.
Humility, which is the wholeidea of sales, service versus
sales, you know.
Justice, which is reallyunderstanding, doing things
right.
And then the last one wasmagnanimity.
I love that word magnanimity,love it too.
(19:46):
And it's really seeing thegreatness in others.
And if we think about it from asales perspective, rather than
trying to attain greatnessourselves, if we see the
greatness in others that weserve, it allows us to move
beyond that idea of theself-centered sales approach.
(20:07):
So those are the sales virtuesthat I really touch on in the
book.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Mike, I appreciate you sharing that.
Again, as I listen through, Ican see you teaching this as
well and going forward.
I don't want to try to saymagnanimity I don't know if I
said that right or not.
I'm not going to say greatnessin others.
It's a couple other words likethat that I've had to use
recently that I get my tonguetangled up with.
No doubt about it.
And when you think about howyou now teach this approach to
(20:38):
sales individuals, as you'recoaching, maybe to sales groups
or organizations, can you sharewith us you know, without giving
away who it is can you sharewith us a success story
utilizing this approach, howsomeone's been able to transform
their sales themselves andorganizations using it?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, and I think the thing about it is, and probably
the last 12 years I've usedthis approach, I actually put
the framework to it in the lastfour or five years, but I've
been using the same approach forquite some time and if I look
at those organizations andsalespeople that I've been able
(21:18):
to coach over the last, you know, a dozen years or so, the
results can speak for themselves.
You know, I think, a lot oftime, especially in the sales
coaching environment, wetypically will work with
somebody for six months, maybe ayear, and after that it kind of
gets, you know, it gets stale.
Well, you know, a lot of myclients average 2.7 years, okay,
(21:42):
which is, you know, unheard of,I think, in, especially in
sales coaching, leadershipcoaching maybe not so much, but.
And then the other thing is,you know, the organizations that
I've worked with have been ableto average a 17% growth rate,
and when you start looking atthose numbers, those are some
significant numbers.
(22:03):
Again, I think the challenge isto get them to rethink the way
that they do sales.
And that's really, you know,there's a great book out there
by Adam Grant called Think Again, and he really talks about this
whole idea of how we rethink.
You know, we typically thinklike the preacher, the
(22:23):
prosecutor or the politician,you know, in that we're trying
to get people to either buy intoour ideas, you know, we're
trying to convince them.
I kind of use the example of mygrandson, you know, first,
first I try and convince him ofthe merits of doing something a
certain way.
Then I try and tell him that ifhe doesn't do it he's in
(22:44):
trouble, you know.
And then finally you give inand you bribe him and say I'll
give you a candy bar if you doit.
You know, it's kind of thatapproach, you know, and Grant
says that instead we shouldthink about it from the
standpoint of a scientist or aphilosopher, in that we doubt
everything that we know, whichdrives curiosity.
(23:06):
We begin to be curious aboutwhat we don't know.
We have the humility tounderstand that we're not right,
and then that leads todiscovery.
And I think we can use thatapproach in a whole bunch of
different things in societytoday.
But I think that for salesorganizations it's really
important that they understandthat you've got it.
(23:28):
I mean, we've been doing thesame way for decades and you got
to rethink how you do it.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
That's the second time I've heard that book think
again the past two weeks as asuggestion, I'm going to have to
add that to my list.
It'll be in my Amazon orderbucket here soon.
My wife's been looking at toomany boxes.
When she comes.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Oh yeah, I get that every day.
He was just here this morning.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
So we have kind of those seven principles and
that's how you use it to teachthe managers.
But you also talk about that.
You know that rule at the end,or at least an approach, but how
have you also trained theleaders?
So this is a group of uncommonleaders that are listening in,
that want to become better.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Right.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
And how are you training leaders to be better
sales managers, better managersof sales leaders, of salespeople
, to be successful?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, I think number one is understanding that we
have to create a flexible enoughsystem or process to allow our
salespeople to flourish usingtheir own God-given strengths,
gifts and talents.
You know, just quickly, goingback to that rule of leading
oneself, you've got the virtuepiece of it, you've got the
(24:38):
character piece, character, andthe positive behavior really
falls into that area of positivepsychology.
And positive psychology is arelatively new science.
It's only been around since thelate 90s, but it really takes.
Prior to that, psychologyreally took a person that was
negative 10 and figured out howto get them to zero, and Martin
(25:00):
Seligman, who's kind of known asthe Godfather of positive
psychology, said that we need tobe looking at taking somebody
that's at zero and getting themto positive, to plus 10.
And that's the whole approachthat positive psychology uses.
So but the interesting thingabout positive psychology is
when you really study it, it'sall based on virtue.
In fact, he created an entireclassification of 24 character
(25:24):
strengths and they're broken upinto six different virtues.
So even though the you know thepsychology piece, you know the
scientists of course would neversay that they want to be
associated with the philosophersand the theologians, but in
reality that's where theirfoundation is.
But if you take that andthere's some great tools that I
(25:44):
use one is called the values andaction inventory, which is
Seligman's tool that hedeveloped.
It's out of the University ofPennsylvania and it's a great
tool it assesses your top 24character strengths and once you
know those strengths and youknow especially you know those
top five to eight it allows youto look at that and say, ok, how
(26:05):
am I selling?
Or, from a leadershipstandpoint, how are my people
selling?
Or how should they be sellingin order to be the best that
they can be.
And then also looking atpositive behaviors, and positive
behaviors really comes from thethought process or the thought
(26:25):
leadership of Kim Cameron andBob Quinn at the University of
Michigan Ross School of Business.
And Cameron talks about what hesays is the heliotropic effect.
And the heliotropic effect andI use the example I'm here in
South Dakota and I use theexample if you drive down a
country road in South Dakota inAugust at eight o'clock in the
morning and there's a field ofsunflowers to your right, all
(26:48):
the sunflowers are going to bepointing to the east.
And if you drive back by thatsame sunflower field at four
o'clock in the afternoon, allthe sunflowers have turned and
they're going to be pointing tothe west.
They follow the sun.
That's the heliotropic effect,and all living things are
attracted to that positiveenergy and that positive light.
And so when we look at positivebehaviors, positive sales
(27:10):
behaviors, we look at thingslike empathy and compassion,
optimism, grit, you know,certainly you've got to have
some perseverance to be in sales, you know and those kinds of
things.
So by measuring those, byunderstanding our character,
strengths and the sales virtues,it allows us as managers or as
(27:32):
leaders, to really put people ina place where they can succeed.
And then, rather than and again, I think what I really talk
about in the book with thisleaders and sales managers thing
, is that it's two differenthats that you wear.
Unfortunately, most salesmanagers wear the hat that all
(27:53):
they're doing is managing tasks.
You know, did you do this, didyou do that?
Did you do this?
You know you and I are both,you know, fans of Rory Vaden,
and Rory talks about shouldheads, you know.
And you should have done thisyou should have done this or
that or whatever you know.
And I think if we take thatmanaging hat off and put on a
(28:16):
leading hat instead and be moreof a coaching and mentoring
approach versus this managing oftasks approach, then we begin
to allow people to work in this,in this process, using these
principles to flourish.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Mike I appreciate that it goes all the way back to
your statement really about notall sales managers make great
excuse me, not all sales peoplemake great sales managers and
ultimately leading to if you, ifyou have a sales manager,
doesn't have those virtues andempathy built in, they're going
to want everybody to work justlike they did and you're going
to assume that everybody's goingto work just like that person.
Yet, with these differentcharacter traits, the leader has
(28:55):
to understand those and be ableto understand.
Yes, the tasks are veryimportant, but to get the best
out of that person, you got tobe able to motivate and inspire
and encourage them in adifferent way.
They do things better in adifferent, a different way of
times, based on those charactertraits.
So I appreciate that and Iactually think, as I listen to
that it just makes that evenmore clear about kind of that,
(29:17):
that salespeople and what thatreally means.
Mike, I think I wish you thebest on the book I want to talk
to actually get the listeners tolearn a little bit more about
you.
And now I got to tell you therewas one thing when I looked,
when I read your LinkedInprofile.
I mean, obviously, the salesexperiences there and those
types of things are there, butfrom a personal standpoint,
you've already taught me theword magnanimity and I said that
(29:37):
one, but there's another wordthat was in there that I didn't
know what it was.
Is it defined who you are?
You're a leader, you're a coach, you're a trainer and you're a
benedictine oblate.
Right, sorry, I didn't look itup yet, but tell me, tell the
listeners, what is a benedictineoblate?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Well, a benedictine oblate is really an individual
that has studied and learned therule and then committed their
life to living the rule.
And so you go through a processit's typically a two year
process to really learn the ruleand understand it and that kind
of thing and then you take avow to uphold that rule, live it
(30:18):
in your life, and you take avow also then to a particular
monastery or priory or whateverit is.
I happen to be connected withthe monastery, the Sacred Heart
Monastery in Yankton, southDakota.
That's where I took my vows tobecome a benedictine oblate.
So it really is just, and itreally is one of those things
(30:39):
the rule has so impacted my life, not just from a work
environment, but from a familyenvironment, from a social
environment.
It really is.
It is this idea of you know theyuse benedict, uses the term
aura at labor, which means workand prayer, and it really is
(31:00):
this idea of living in balanceand that approach and as I apply
it to the work that I do withleaders, as I apply it to the
work that I do with salespeople,to really live it out and walk
the walk, I think is reallyimportant.
And I think the other thing itreally does is it allows me to
(31:24):
really talk on a deeper levelwith leaders of organizations
you know I talk about on mywebsite.
I talk about that I work withfaith-connected organizations
and leaders and not and I thinkthe faith-connected piece is I
use the word connectedintentionally it's not that it's
(31:47):
a particular connection to areligion or any of those kinds
of things, but it's somebodythat has that belief and that
connection in their faith andunderstands that that's an
important aspect of success.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Absolutely, and it goes all the way back to that
person-centric, wholeperson-centric approach that you
talk about.
I can see that.
I can hear that in your voice,mike, I can understand as you
teach it and I appreciate yousharing that with the listeners
as well.
Mike, you've been very generouswith your time today.
I just have a couple morequestions.
One of them is folks are goingto want to stay in touch with
(32:23):
you.
No doubt about it in terms oflearning, absolutely.
What's the best way for them tostay in touch with you?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Well, the easiest way is just to go to my website,
and it's an easy onethemunkguycom.
You know, as part of our work,you know, with with brand
builders, I kind of went througha whole rebrand here over the
last several months and andthanks to them, came up with the
monitor moniker themunkguy.
(32:47):
And so themunkguycom is theeasiest place to to find my
website, and I will even throwin a little, a little caveat
there, or a little incentivethere, john First two people to
go to that website and sign upfor the newsletter that I do the
monk principles two plus oneyou can go down and scroll down
to the bottom of the home pageand there's a form there.
(33:09):
First two people to do it fromyour podcast, I'll send them a
copy of the book.
Sell like a muck.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Excellent.
No, I appreciate that,listeners.
hey, when there's every free,free, incentives, you got to pay
attention and get that throughwe save that to the end, and
especially those of you all thestate all the way through this
to hear it through.
That's awesome, mike.
Again, I so appreciate yourtime today.
I'll finish you with the lastquestion that I always finish
with First time listeners andopportunity again to learn more
about you, but I'm going to giveyou a billboard.
I may know something actuallyis going to be on this thing.
(33:37):
I don't know, you may havealready said it, but I'm going
to give you a billboard.
You can put it anywhere youwant to.
In South Dakota there might notbe millions going by it, but
maybe you put it somewhere elseas you're traveling around, as
you go through.
You can put anything you wantto on that billboard, though,
any message that you want to.
What do you put on thatbillboard and why?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
You know, I think I put on that billboard the same
thing that I put on the t-shirtsthat I give away on the front
of them mission driven by muckprinciples.
It's that idea that says we dothings on a very different level
using these muck principles,whether that's leading, whether
that's selling, whether that'sworking, whether that's living
(34:14):
in community.
I think these muck principlesgive, and our world needs this,
John, it needs this desperately.
I think that if we really lookat these muck principles and how
they work, not only in salesand leadership but in life in
general, I think our world wouldbe a better place.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Mike Drop-Omen.
Thank you very much, mikeFarrell, for joining the
Uncommon Leader Podcast.
Let's stay in touch, okay, andI wish you the best.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Sounds great, John.
I appreciate the time.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
And that wraps up another episode of the Uncommon
Leader Podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate it if you
could leave a rating and reviewon your favorite podcast
platform.
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
(35:10):
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
Uncommon Leaders.
Until next time, go and growChampions.
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