The University of Life & James Mattingley

Meet James Mattingley, a beacon of transformation who has dedicated his life to creating enriching experiences for families and individuals. From his sustainable haven in Bali to pioneering the “Ubud Fight Club,” James shares insights on fostering deeper connections among men and helping couples build lasting intimacy.

We explore James’ personal journey of self-evaluation, fueled by feelings of inadequacy, and how this has driven his growth. 

James offers a refreshing perspective on purpose and mentorship, encouraging a heart-centered approach to life’s nonlinear path. He discusses balancing head, heart, and gut wisdom for better decision-making and well-being, and the crucial difference between happiness and fulfillment—especially for men facing societal pressures.

Finally, we dive into vulnerability, emotional expression, and the healing power of open conversations, particularly among men. James highlights “Aware Parenting” for nurturing children’s emotional awareness and draws parallels between managing emotions in both children and adults. We also touch on the complexities of numbing mechanisms, addiction, and balancing structure with enjoyment. This conversation is packed with insights for anyone seeking deeper connections and personal growth. Don’t miss this enlightening discussion with James.

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If ever you'd like to connect, please don't hesitate to connect via my website www.jamiewhite.com.

I am always open to feedback, reflections, guest / subject recommendations and anything else that might come up.

Thank you for listening, Jamie x

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
So, james, I am so happy to get to speak with you
on this, so thank you very much.
I see you as a mentor, I seeyou as somebody who is
extraordinarily inspiring, as aman, as a father and as a
partner, and it's an honour toget to have a chat with you and
just tap into your world, notjust for me, but to get to share

(00:23):
it with others as well.
So thank you.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thanks, man.
That's a lot to take in as anintro.
I really appreciate it how's?
It been.
Um, it feels really good and Inoticed parts of me like the
amount that I can let that inand the amount that I can't.
So I'd say it's about.
I can let in about 40 of thatone.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
So it's nice for me.
I can say it withoutreservation.
Yeah, I think it's interesting.
Like for me, I've always foundmyself a little bit of an
observer.
I love looking at people, Ilove looking at how they show up
in different scenarios andeverything like that, and I've I
found, um, yeah, quite acaliber of man.
So, rather than me walking onin that direction, can you

(01:03):
describe what it is that you door how it is that you're showing
the world?

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Very inadequately.
I can try Right now.
I'd say my main focus is myfamily.
I have a six month old and athree year old.
At the same time, we'rebuilding a space for families,
so we're developing a land wherewe live in Bali, a space for
families.
So we're developing a landwhere we live in bali for a
place for families to comethat's sustainable, that has
gardens, that has playgrounds alot of things that bali misses.

(01:30):
Outside of that, um, I workwith men, with my good friend
and your good friend, jan, wherewe get to punch each other in
the face with love and somethingwe tongue-in-cheek called uber
fight club.
Um, and I work with couplesaround relationship, intimacy,
vulnerability and sexuality Sucha big sphere of like work.

(01:51):
Yeah, it's a little bit toomuch, do you think?
Only in that I constantly feellike I'm failing at each one.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Really.
Yeah, it's probably a goodtrait, though I think the best
types do feel that they're like,they're not as good as they
should be, and that's reallytheir fuel to keep going.
Whereas I get a, really, I geta little bit anxious sometimes
when people say I'mextraordinarily good at this.
This is my.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
It's very suspicious a little bit.
I remember I asked a goodfriend of mine, elena, elena ray
do you know elena?
Yeah yeah she.
I knew her.
When she had nothing she would.
She would pick and choose fromthe menu, depending on how
expensive it was, because shejust did not have any income,
and she went from that into amulti-million dollar coach in a
matter of just a few years.
We're sitting at the table andI just mentioned this to her.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
I'm like hey you went from this to that how did you
do that?

Speaker 2 (02:37):
She looked for a second, she looked up and she
goes trauma.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
I think there's some truth to it.
You know, yeah big motivator,big motivator.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
What was hers when she developed that out of free?
Sorry, what was hers?
So trauma, yeah, she didn'tspeak to what it was, but she
has some family things, yeahyeah, no, she shared on this
podcast as well.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
She's brilliant such a character.
Yeah, yeah she's amazing.
But when I think of yourselflike to get into creating
beautiful spaces for families towork with men essentially
really facing their fears and towork with couples helping them
connect, all the more, how thehell do you get into all of that
space?
What leads you into that work?

Speaker 2 (03:19):
I would say the multitude of things, but maybe
an easy way to answer would bethe thread, which is something
I'm very interested in.
For other people and myself,like, what's the golden line or
the thin red line that connectsall of them?
For me, I'm always curiousabout how to go underneath the
surface.
Yeah, I just say surface,that's interesting.
Underneath the surface, I meantunderneath the surface, but

(03:41):
also in service.
So I'm very interested in depthand like questioning what we're
doing and looking for what'sbeneath it and, at the same time
, for men, finding this balancebetween strength and
vulnerability or hardness andsoftness.
Both of these things reallycapture my attention.

(04:03):
Yeah, okay, so you're quite anobserver, like myself, I think.
So.
I'm curious about yourobserving, though.
Has it always been this way?
Can you trace it to a certainmoment where you realised that
part of you was activated orheightened, or has it?

Speaker 1 (04:23):
just always been there, I would.
Has it just always been there?
I would say it's always beenthere.
I can go back to play schooland just observe how I can see
how curious I was about howothers were showing up in the
class and the different socialpockets, the different groups
that connected and the ones thatdidn't, why one kid was the
cool kid and why the other kidwas the not so cool kid.

(04:45):
Interesting, I yeah, I'vealways found that really, really
interesting and perhaps therewas like a want to me that I was
like, hey, I want to be thecool kid and but then when I was
the cool kid, why am I the coolkid?
Why is?
that other one, not I.
I've always found life is moreinteresting when you observe it,
rather perhaps just get a alittle bit wrapped up in it and

(05:06):
distracted by it Fantasticallymastered that answer.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, do you find a difference between the ease of
observing women or men?

Speaker 1 (05:17):
I know particular preference.
I feel like now I'm on theother side and I'm suddenly in a
coaching container with you andbeing observed.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Who's observing?

Speaker 1 (05:28):
the observer.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
I'm curious because I feel like I have the same.
What I notice with.
It feels very different to me.
Men and women in theobservation.
I find with men there's a lotof invisible hierarchy,
instruction and women I'm sayingthis as it's coming up so I
don't know how true it is, butwith women there's what is it?
Maybe it's just more obviousfor me with men seems to be more

(05:53):
of a hierarchy.
Okay, like dogs sniffing in thestreet.
Okay, yeah, and then with women.
I'm not sure about women morecomplicated creatures more
complicated.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
yeah, I heard a beautiful saying the other day
from a Russian friend who saidyou know, people are always
talking about equality when itcomes to the sexes, but Russian
women are so much smarter thanthat They've never lowered
themselves to the state of a man.
It's very funny, so good, I feel.
Men are quite like dogs andyou're like you're a node of

(06:24):
like they're like dogs andyou're like your node of like
dogs sniffing each other's bums.
It's like, yeah, we're quitesimple creatures.
Women are like cats curious,complicated, challenging and,
just as soon as you think youhave it, lost it.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, I know.
So the analogy we've used onthe retreats before is like men
are like a playstationcontroller there's a certain
number of buttons and a certaincombination that you can push
them in and women it's more likea three-dimensional or
four-dimensional playstationcontroller with a button shift
almost every day.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, likes to almost tease you think you got it,
uh-huh, uh-huh.
And I actually, if I, if Iagain think back to, like my
younger years, probably one ofthe most fun things I can
remember is just observing howmy cat and dog interacted and,
like my cat really kept my dogtight yeah, wow, do you love

(07:18):
your work?

Speaker 2 (07:20):
yeah, I mean the work that I do.
I do because I want to.
It's not a big necessity for meat the moment.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
That's quite a special thing to be able to say,
because most people, to be fair, life gets on top of them and
they end up just having to dowhat it is that they do, so to
get to share and say, hey look,I do what I do because I love it
.
That's, yeah, that's special.
Curb the list.
And is it always that way?

Speaker 2 (07:49):
mostly, mostly so.
So I had to give context tothis answer that's brewing in my
mind.
I have always felt a deep yearnfor a mentor or a teacher, and
a deep yearn for a mentor or ateacher and a deep yearn for a
singular purpose, and I feltguilty for having neither.

(08:10):
Like I'm missing out onsomething, because my life has
been very varied.
It's bounced backwards andforwards quite a lot, and what
I'm realizing more and more nowis that my ability to go from
one place to another and thenthrive, and from there to

(08:33):
another and thrive in what I'mdoing as a choice, every time as
a choice, has actually been areal blessing Precisely because
of this, because the things thatI've done and the things that
I've been wanting to do and Oneone thing that I've been working
with a lot recently is theCliche sounding thing surrender

(08:54):
to the flow of life- Mm-hmm youknow this render experiment?

Speaker 1 (08:57):
I do yes, but I Don't want to like distract her, okay
.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
It's just a fucking fantastic.
It really hit me very hardbecause all of the thoughts of
could I, would, I should havedone when I view it through the
lens of the world was taking meexactly where I needed to be at
the time, brought a huge amountof ease to my anxious mind, it
calmed my samskara.
It's a balm to me and I'm stillworking.

(09:23):
I'm working with it quitedeeply at the moment.
So, instead, it's a balm to meand I'm still working.
I'm working with it quitedeeply at the moment.
So, instead of having a lifewhere, yeah, it's been great,
I've got to choose what I do andI bop around here for here, but
it's missing something becauseit's not linear.
Somehow, it's not this or that.
Now I can say well, actually,each one of those things I did
to the best way that I could andit's led me into a place that
is as I said, very blessed.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
So what I hear from that is that you followed your
heart and that has led you fromone thing to the next, to the
next.
But the real asset that's kindof stood to that is that you're
following your heart and that'senabled you to do whatever it is
that you're doing really well.
What I also hear is that that'sactually quite unique and you

(10:08):
would see others taking quitelinear progressions in their
career and just because that'sthe kind of a done thing, you
would question yourself and youquestion your path and be like
am I doing the right thing?
And that can be quite hauntingand that can be quite
distracting.
And then talk gave youpermission to let that go and
actually recognize that whatyou're up to is actually really
what life is all about followingyour heart and and our hearts.

(10:31):
If they're staying in one place, well, that's good for whomever
that might be, but I don'tactually think that's a very
natural thing.
I think our heart yearns togrow and to expand and gets
excited by a level of differenceevery so often yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah, yeah.
The only thing that I'd add isthat you seem to me a really
like quite.
You have a lot of capacity forthat and for me it hasn't been
over the years.
So a lot of the time in myearly years I wish I could say
as long as my heart was involved.
A lot of the time I was justfollowing my head and what was
happening.
So I ended up.

(11:08):
My first real job was working oncruise ships, just kind of
randomly, as a luxury goodsconsultant.
I would give presentations tofour or five 600 people a week
and send them into the islandsto buy things that really matter
in life, like diamonds andgemstones, and watches Turned
out to be the highest paid jobon the ship because it was all

(11:29):
commission-based, totally random.
There's one on every cruiseship but I wasn't going there
because I'm like it was hot andgolden in terms of it was
adventure and it was free.
It was adventure and it paidreally well and at that time in
my life life money was very,very important.
It was a priority.
I think it's been an ongoingand more recent thing to really

(11:50):
tap into my heart and torecognize that, just as thoughts
are ever-present in my mind.
Feelings are ever-present in myheart.
That was a mind-blower for meTo be like oh, my heart's always
feeling something.
Why did nobody tell me this?
Just like my mind's alwaysfeeling something why?
did nobody tell me this, justlike my mind's always thinking,
and that's been a, that's beenan uncovering as of late tuning

(12:11):
all the more into your heart andaway from the distraction of
your head and just realizingwell away from the distraction
right yeah, just the simple ideathat my mind is always
generating thoughts, sometimesconsciously, sometimes
unconsciously, exactly the samefor my heart.
So I can have my thoughts rightnow.

(12:31):
That's where I am right now,because I'm thinking about what
I'm saying and I can also tuneinto my heart, and it's actually
a different thing.
But it's always giving mesomething.
Sometimes I'm consciouslythinking of gratitude and
pulling it down, and sometimesit's just appearing
spontaneously, but it's alwaysgiving me something.
Sometimes I'm consciouslythinking of gratitude and
pulling it down, and sometimesit's just appearing
spontaneously, but there'salways something, just like
there's always a thought thatwas a trip for me.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Can we explore a bit of a theory?
Yeah, okay.
So I think many of us findourselves ruled by our heads.
Quite logical, yes, becausewe're in a logical environment
where things need to make senseand you need to do what's
expected of you and all thatkind of thing, and that's great,
serves some people, fantastic.
Then we have our hearts.

(13:13):
It really tunes in.
I think it's like the center ofthe body.
It tunes into.
Everything connects back to theheart and I think.
when we think with our heads,it's very logical, it's very
linear, it's veryone-dimensional.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
When we feel with our hearts, I think it takes an
all-encompassing approach.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
I think when we feel into our hearts, we actually get
a much greater thought capacity.
That's it, and my belief isthat if you can learn to tune
into your head and lead withyour heart, you Make much more
comprehensive decisions.
You might not actually evenunderstand them because so much
is going on behind the scenes,and lead with your heart.
You make much morecomprehensive decisions.
You might not actually evenunderstand them because so much
is going on behind the scenes,but there will just be this
feeling pushing you in a certaindirection and once you have

(13:52):
that, you can tune into yourhead, lead with your heart
supported by your head, becausethe head is so good at figuring
out.
Well, what are the steps?
Like I understand, there's thefeeling coming from my heart to
point us in the direction.
Let's figure out the buildingblocks on the way there.
So I find that my head isfantastic to support my heart,

(14:13):
but when my head gets in the wayof my heart I, generally
speaking, don't necessarilyfulfill my potential.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, I can totally get on board with that.
I have a weird analogy comes up, like when you go to a
restaurant and you open up amenu, the first thing that grabs
your attention which would beanalogous to that for me is
always the thing that I go fornow, Because I think if I spend
time looking at the otheroptions, I'm thinking about the
different options and I canspend time there, and if I get
something and I don't like it,then I regret it.

(14:42):
So an imperfect analogy, butthat's what comes up.
Oh my God, James, if I followedthat I'd be such a fatty.
Well, I have a question for youon this, though.
So when you find yourself inyour head and you want to listen
to your heart, what is theinternal process?
Is it a thought?
Is it an embodied thing?

(15:02):
How do you drop into your heartspace?

Speaker 1 (15:05):
So what I notice is, when I'm never leaving my head,
it's like a constant bloodymerry-go-round.
It's one thought to the nextthought, to the next thought, to
the next thing.
It's exhausting and I can find,uh, I can find myself just not
at peace and I like I'm thinkingabout something and it never
really goes anywhere.
It just leads to the next thing, to the next thing.

(15:26):
So I literally my hand's overmy heart, right hand first, left
hand on my right, why, I don'tknow.
I don't actually know half thereason behind so much that I do.
It's just it feels really gooddoing it that way.
I put my left hand down and itdoesn't feel right Right hand.
I'm like mm.
Tuned, I close my eyes and Ibreathe slowly.

(15:47):
Imagining the breath is kind ofexpanding my heart and then
contracting my heart, and it'sgenerally when I inhale I think
of whatever I want to ask myselfor whatever I want to come up
with.
When I exhale, the answeremerges.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Huh, Interesting.
Inhale you think about whateverproblem or thing you're
focusing on, and exhale you justlet the answer come through.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
And what I noticed the difference between my head
and my heart is when I feel intosomething in my heart, it's a
peaceful answer.
It's like if I break that downand make it more simple.
If I'm thinking about somethingand I'm like, what am I going
to do today?
I could do this, but what aboutthat?
And this could be amazing andthat could good.
And then, oh, this.
And then suddenly I actuallythink about something completely
random, whereas when I tuneinto my heart and I'm like what

(16:33):
am I going to do today?
It's like you're going to dothis today.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
Jamie and my head kicks in, it's like what about
all the other things?

Speaker 1 (16:41):
it's like, jamie, you're going to do this and my
head kicks back in again.
But what about all this otherstuff?
It's like, don't worry aboutall this stuff today.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
We just need to do this today, do you?

Speaker 1 (16:52):
have an example of when.
I could do it right now.
Right now, as I'm sitting infront of you, there's a hundred
questions piling up in my head,right, and I'm thinking a little
bit behind, like the guy whofollowed his heart and got to
follow his heart, I got tofollow his impulsive wants.
Oh, that seems a bit privileged.
So there's a whole thing that'sgoing on and I really want to

(17:13):
explore that subject with you,right, and I lose presence and I
, in this moment, I need to belike jamie, get back in the
conversation so I'll breathe,breathe to calm myself.
Then I'm like okay, whatquestion comes next?
I have no idea what questioncomes next, but if I do it now,
I'm like I'll do it.
And there's only like onequestion that comes up.

(17:36):
It's like ask him abouthappiness.
I love it.
Weird, right, I love it.
That's why it's like Jamie,what does James kind of feel is
like are the contributingfactors to bringing about
happiness in his life?
Ah, beautiful.
But that is a prime example oflike all the distractions out
the window.
We just want to ask him this.
I love it.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
So it's such a way to cut through the noise and is
the Dan Tien or your centre oryour gut coming to?
Because at the moment you'vegot head, heart.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Is there a third centre for you, the gut.
So now I'm really like I wantto talk to you about the
happiness but, ok, I actuallyused to talk to people about,
like you know, we have threebrains our head, our heart and
our gut.
But I couldn't differentiatebetween the gut and the heart,

(18:26):
because when I thought about thegut, it's that deep feeling,
but the more I believe ourpractice as beings is to bring
ourselves into alignment, bringorder to the chaos that we can
just find ourselves in.
Our impulsive nature and my gutin prior years was all over the

(18:54):
place.
I checked into hospital oncewith like dysbiosis, gastritis,
colitis, kidney stones, and Ijust I really wanted to work on
my gut.
I'm I'm remembering a periodwhere my gut was so bad that,
like my short-term memory went.
I couldn't remember people'snames who I'd known for years

(19:15):
and all this kind of stuff, andI'd actually this weird thing
used to happen where I would saysomething, but this, the start
of the conversation, so thestart of what I would say was
actually the end and the end wasthe start.
I'd say sentences and referweird, I don't even yeah, weird.
Anyway, the more I've worked onmyself, the more I would say

(19:36):
that these two have come intoalignment.
Now I'm hoping for a challenge.
You might be like no, jamie,this is how your gut thinks, but
what I find is that that deeperlike I used to feel that the
gut was kind of like this deepfeeling and thought.
But yeah, that just seems totune into my heart more now.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Well, no, jamie, this is how your gut thinks.
I just ask so of leftrelationships due to the
disparity between my heart andmy gut before.
So what I noticed was, in thisrelationship, I'm like something
isn't right.

(20:17):
Something isn't right, but Icouldn't figure out what it was
or what to do about it.
And in my head I knew all thereasons why the relationship was
good for me.
It was a lot of ticks, you know, and my heart loved her,
because when my heart's open itjust feels like love.
So I totally loved her.
But then I just went through aninternal process of imagining

(20:39):
being with her in five years'time and then being with her in
10 years' time and 15 years'time and observing, and my head
had all the reasons, my hearthad all the love.
But I've noticed, if I imaginebeing with her in five years
time, there was like it wasn'tany words or voice or sense of
knowing.
It was just a constriction,because I don't, I haven't heard

(20:59):
words from my gut, but I feltsensation, so it just like tied
in a fucking ball.
I'd be like, oh, that's crazy.
So then I'd imagine myself inthe opposite scenario.
I'd be like, well, what if Iwasn't with her in five years?
Relief release.
And it was very, very helpfulfor me to have that distinction

(21:21):
between the two and I still useit.
I mean, I use it relativelyoften when any big decisions are
getting in my way and I I can'tsee my way through it.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
I future pace and then listen to the three centers
so break that down for me oncemore head, head, heart, gut,
okay, but breaking down thedifferences in your head, but
within the relationship, well,actually, just in terms of your
like, if you were describing,hey, well, here how the three
operate differently Head logic,yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Checks and balances pros and cons.
An open heart feels kind oflike an eager, loving puppy.
It wants a lot and it loves alot.
Okay, it has a lot of wisdomabout where you should be going
and what you should be doing andyour deeper desire and the gut
was like a deeper knowing from abody-based sensation, and the

(22:18):
way it communicated to me iseither tying itself up in knots
or not.
Okay, like that was its way ofcommunication.
Yeah, really interesting reallyinteresting.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
I spent the last oh god month um very close with the
guys from human garage.
It's a guy called garyhan andhe is helping it's very much
trauma release and working withFASHA to help people build a

(22:50):
practice around daily check-insand trauma release.
And they're all about readingthe body in terms of what
contractions mean not justphysically but emotionally, and
how different emotions arestored in the body and how
different emotions reflectthemselves in the body.

(23:24):
So the most basic insight intothat is when someone's down and
when someone's depressed.
They're hunched and optimistic.
They're proud.
Their chest is high.
Their breath is strong andconsistent versus slow and
shallow in depression.
And forgive me if I'mmisquoting them, but what they
were saying is look, jamie, wehave this complete
misunderstanding with regards toour brain, and the idea is that
all our have this completemisunderstanding with regards to
our brain.
The idea is that all ourthoughts and everything like

(23:44):
that are in our brain and thatall our brain tissues is in our
brain.
And then the more developedthought of that was like no, we
have brain tissue in our heart,we have brain tissue in our gut.
And they're like no, we havebrain tissue in our fascia.
We have brain tissue rightthroughout our being.
It's why certain memories comeup when you touch certain parts
of your body and, rather thanspeaking about it in, let's say,

(24:10):
a segmented fashion, they'relike it's all there, and the
body will express itself,generally speaking, in aches and
pains, because we'll hear itmost in that regard, although
we're completely disconnectedfrom that knowledge,
unfortunately.
So if we have a pain, just takea pill and we have a pain, we
don't understand it and we can'thear the message.

(24:31):
So they're doing a lot, a lotof work, and I think that one of
the really interesting thingsis that they're translating that
message for people.
It's really beautiful.
But when it comes to thethought process and when it
comes to the thought process,yeah, I love the way they're
like, you know they're very muchthink with your whole body,

(24:54):
like breathe into your wholebody, you make these full-bodied
and actually the coaching words, you know they're kind of like
a full body.
Fuck, yeah, yeah, I actually.
Yeah, I love that yeah um, whenyou shared your story about the
relationship and your head beinglike, yeah, logically, this all
makes sense, but your gut justaching with the thought of that
relationship for me, I kind oflike I'm like I love that you

(25:17):
can ask your head to inquire onthat for you.
Yeah, so I I think it'sactually quite a dangerous thing
, you know, because I think ourheads are actually so easily
controlled.
They will think about whateverit is that we want them to think
about.
So if, for example, say, wehave like an instinctive thought

(25:37):
that we should be fearful, yeahand your head is thinking about
all the things that you shouldbe fearful.
It's like oh, nightmareterritory.
Similarly speaking, if you askyour head, like you know, why
should I be in this relationship?
Well, it'll tell you all thereasons why shouldn't I be in
this relationship.
Or I'm considering that you canlead your head in some very
challenging spots, but my beliefis they're they're not made of

(26:00):
truth.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
I understand.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
The mind is a shit show well, the head, I would say
your brain is a shit show.
The heart, I think, is really,really true and I, provided I
believe the head is serving theheart, you're in a great place,
but if your whole being isfollowing your head, I think
you're living a shit show.
Yeah, are you opening yourselfup to living?

Speaker 2 (26:21):
in a shit show.
You know doug sanhope thecomedian.
No, no, no, he's fantastic.
I'm gonna murder one of hissmall bits.
So please forgive me, douganyone that likes comedy.
But he's talking about he's,he's just like.
He's kind of crass, he's alwayssmoking cigarettes, he's, he's
drinking, he's like on stage andthat's just just his persona
and who he is actually like.

(26:41):
It's like have you ever triedthis?
Have you ever tried sleepingsober?
It's a shit show.
There's music in the head.
There's this thought, there'sthat thought it's like.
And what if she said that to?
me and then I said that oh, andit was such a great parody of an
uh, unspooled mind, yeah, likea mind that hasn't had training

(27:03):
and discipline or the capacityto lean into the heart.
Um, yeah, it's a wild thing.
There's a something else cameup for me speaking about I'm
this is the wrong term, but I'mquite a fascist, isn't?
I love fashion.
I always have.
I've trained quite deeply with awoman named cor and green
Gertner and she has this amazingstory about how she she was

(27:28):
working and there was a box andthere was a second boss
laterally and he was just beingreally don't like, being a real
asshole, and she felt like shecouldn't speak Like and speak up
to what was true for her.
And she was in Switzerland,like she couldn't speak like and
speak up to what was true forher.
And she was in switzerland andshe developed something called
burning tongue syndrome, whereyour tongue feels like it's on
fire.
She leaves, comes to bali, shedoes writing while she's over

(27:50):
here, burning tongue disappears.
She flies back to switzerland.
Three months later, as soon asher foot touches the tarmac,
burning cancer syndrome comesback.
Isn't that fascinating?
Touches, the tarmac, burningcancer syndrome comes back.
Isn't that fascinating?
Very much in line with whatthese guys are saying right,
like your body is giving amessage all of the time, and

(28:16):
it's not this or that, it's thewhole thing one living breathing
organism?

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, I'd love you to explore that a little bit more.
What was the kind of thefinding or what was the
experience from that Like, didshe just literally get back up
on onto the next planet there?

Speaker 2 (28:26):
No, she went in.
I think I don't know.
That's a horrible story to tellhalf of it, because I don't
actually know what happened.
If I remember, it's a number ofyears back that she went to
actually speak.
She spoke up in theorganization against what was
going on.
I think that alleviated it itwhat was going on.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, I think that alleviated it.
It's lovely, I.
For a long time I like I hadall these ailments and
everything and I was likenothing shapes you, like the
environment you're in, and so Iwas like this environment
doesn't serve me and I'd leave.
Uh-huh, and in actual fact,nothing serves you, like the
environment you're in, andsometimes it might bring about

(29:00):
ailments and issues that aren'tailments and issues but actually
prods and pokes in the rightdirection to perhaps speak up,
to perhaps have thatuncomfortable conversation or
make a tough decision, and ifyou only make those decisions,
you'll feel at ease and at peace.
That was unimaginable before.

(29:21):
And you rob yourself of byleaving that environment.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
And that's a great segue back to your question
about happiness, I think,because, as best as I can, I
focus on fulfillment rather thanhappiness, because happiness is
so beautiful but it's sofleeting, so happiness might be,
I don't know, going to thebeach instead of having that
conversation that is causingwhatever ailment that you have

(29:51):
or discomfort, whereasfulfillment probably going to be
more fulfilled.
Like you know that feeling whenwe have this beautiful thing
here in your boat with the men,friends that I have and many of
which you know.
Where you have a problem, youcome to them and you speak to
them about it and there's spaceto speak and to be spoken to.
It's not like that everywhere,but it's still really hard.
I'd be happier actually toignore it, but when I have that

(30:15):
conversation I leave feelingdeeper in myself and more in
myself.
I feel more fulfilled by havingthat harder thing rather than
just going with the easierfloating thing.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Happiness, the pursuit of happiness, can be
very corruptive actually yeah,very undermining, but happiness
is a byproduct.
So if you pursue happinessfirst and foremost, god help you
.
It might lead you astray andall over the place, but if you
see happiness as a byproduct ofthe tougher conversations,

(30:52):
bringing greater fulfillmentinto your life, it's probably a
much more serving approach, amuch more long term approach as
well.
Quite interesting.
Yeah, so many of us think withour head, but actually our head
should be following and insupport of us approach a much
more long-term approach as well.
Quite interesting.
Yeah, so many of us think withour head, but actually our head
should be following and insupport of us.
So many of us chase happiness.
In actual fact, happiness isjust what comes from perhaps
pursuing fulfillment, and if youchase happiness, unfortunately

(31:17):
it might be a never-going chase.
Feels that way, right?
Yeah, I have this feeling abouthappiness in relationship.
I'm kind of leaning into yourmore like coaching relationship
side, but I fear the couplesthat want to be happy and
prioritize happy, and I thinkcouples get to choose between

(31:38):
happiness or safety, and if youbuild safety, happiness comes as
a byproduct.
But if you choose happiness, alot of performing kicks in and
it can be very, very corruptiveand it can be very, very hard to
have those uneasy conversations, which certainly aren't happy
in the moment, but foster thehappiness that you're pursuing.
So, yeah, I think it can be avery good exercise and I love

(32:05):
the kind of framework that youtalked about, where you have
this open commune with other menwhere you can bring your issues
to the table, talk them out andperhaps have some really
positive reflections shared withyou.
It's amazing.
It's not the way that I grew upand I've had new zealand culture
and irish culture share somethings for men growing up right

(32:26):
but, if you, if you get theopportunity to kind of share
even like that and rewrite ascript like for me, I always
thought, being in a relationship, be happy, be happy and I
recognize the reflection thatthat is the cause of so many
issues, trying to be happy allthe time.
And if I only prioritized,let's say, fulfillment in your

(32:46):
case or safety in mine, thoserelationships would have been a
hell of a lot happier, I bet.
And that teaches me a lot aboutbe very, very careful with your
goals.
Be very, very careful aboutyour vision.
You might think you're pursuingthe right thing when in actual
fact it's very corruptive andoftentimes the thing that you

(33:08):
are actually kind of avoiding alittle bit, like, let's say, in
relationship to tougherconversations.
The fact is they're kind of thepeace, the love, the enjoyment,
the happiness, the attention onthe other side of those times
of disease and discomfort.
A hundred percent Okay.
So your route to happiness justso I can take that little inner

(33:28):
calling that I had insidemyself is pursue fulfillment.
Yeah, then happiness Lovely.
I feel a little bit silly ifI'm sitting in front of that
Like I want to give the titleMasterCut.
Is that master coach to whomyou?

Speaker 2 (33:47):
I think you can give it to me.
I'm not sure I can wear it good.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
That's probably indicative of all the reason why
you should.
And what are the issues you'refinding with most men that are
coming to you and that arechallenged right now and that
perhaps might be listening tothis our partners might be
listening in relationship, inwhatever comes up for you, first
and foremost, that feels goodto share.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
I think, so I think so boring?
no, not boring, but it's worthnoting that there's something
like a six to one ratio of menin prisons versus women.
There's a three to almost fourto one ratio of men suicides

(34:41):
than there are to women.
I think there's a myriad ofcomplicated reasons for it, but
one of the main ones are thiscombination of men feeling like
they're an island, that it's notokay to ask for help, that
asking for help is a weakness ora vulnerability in a negative

(35:02):
sense vulnerability.
And the other one is that whenyou're in the masculine mode of
life.
Life's job is to get things done, to get this work done, to get
this relationship done, to getmy woman feeling better, to make
this work done, to get thisrelationship done, to get my

(35:22):
woman feeling better, to makethis money.
If that's the only energy ofmasculine, then you're burning.
It's a very, very dry energyand it leads to much more of all
been speaking about with themind service.
So then it becomes.
This sense of life is just onebig uphill battle of to-dos, and

(35:44):
on top of that, my partner isnot happy with me, or I should
be spending more time with mykids, and I'm not meant to ask
for any help.
I think that's the biggest, thebiggest thing that I come
across.
There's a myriad of differentthings, but I think that's the
biggest one Men getting strungout, dried up, mentally

(36:10):
exhausted or depressed becausethey're burning a particular
flavor of masculine energy thatour society supports.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
And the medicine to that is A little bit of magic.
Yeah, I got this kind of imageof an iceberg.
You know the way, the icebergit's literally just.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
You see the tip of the iceberg, and rest is beneath
the surface.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
I kind of just see the tip of the head.
For so many of us men likegoing through life, and it's
true, I think it's true of somany, not just men but like that
we are just about with ourheads above water, when there's
a whole bulk of us almostpulling us under totally and
it's uh, and it's accumulated,let's say disease, challenge,

(36:55):
misunderstandings about theworld and with those that we
love and that haven't yet beencorrected.
Because I do find you have ahealing conversation with
somebody and you feel that alittle bit lighter, you come up
above the water that little bitmore.
But if you have amisunderstanding that's sewn
into the very fabric of yourbeing, not just with somebody
else but perhaps about life,let's say, in my instinct,

(37:15):
pursuing happiness over safetyit starts to weigh you down and
pull you under and I find thatthere's this sense of like
living kicks in where you're notreally living.
You are a slave to yourschedule and all the different
things that are pulling out ofyou.
You're living so reactively,you don't get a chance to be

(37:37):
proactive, you don't get achance to enjoy your potential
or anything spontaneousspontaneous because you're
literally just struggling tokeep your head above water,
struggling to keep going,struggling to just, yeah, keep
up with the way things are.
And I, I, I found it really,really sad.

(37:57):
I think, like the work in termsof what you get to do, in terms
of working with men and workingwith couples, it must be so
unbelievably fulfilling because,essentially, what you're doing
is you're just helping people tolighten the load, to work
through the blocks that perhapshave become baggage and enjoy a
little bit more time or a littlebit more space or a little bit
more freedom.
Right, absolutely, absolutely,yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, I

(38:22):
think, yeah, it's a sharedexperience, but, in particular,
the one that's coming up for meis that there's a much more
complementing environment outthere for women to ask for help
and to talk, whereas it's a bitlonelier for men.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
Oh my God.
The saying in New Zealand as ateenager.
If you showed emotion, it wasoh bro, go eat a teaspoon of
concrete and harden the fuck up.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
Right, you guys are pretty bloody hard.
Yeah, it's a pretty hardculture.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
It's a pretty hard culture in New Zealand.
Yeah, I mean so it's literallykilling us, so it's literally
killing men this particularaspect of not asking about and
that's extreme.
So on the extreme end, it leadsto depression and suicide.
Right, because it's beingtrapped in the mental cage of a
mind where there's nothing leftbut things to do and you feel
like you're a burden on yourselfand everybody else around you.

(39:16):
On the lighter side of thespectrum and this is perhaps
more relatable for a lot of menit's just a feeling like there's
not much joy in life.
There's just a constant levelof things to be done.
If you're aware of it, it'seven worse because you might
have a beautiful life but notfeel joy.
It's almost worse than nothaving joy.

(39:36):
It's like I should feel joy, um, and then you, you're kind of
faced with not greatalternatives, unless you're in a
culture where you have a spaceto share and speak about it or
be with other men, because thealternatives are to basically
numb out so some of my listenersand be like oh no, I don't do
that.
I feel like, whatever my life isfine, I've got a lot to do.

(39:58):
But then then look at the ratethat you consume porn, or the
rate that you consume unhealthyfoods or alcohol or cigarettes
or whatever it might be.
Whatever it is that you do thatyou know, like you know in your
bones, is a distraction fromsomething.
What is that thing?
That's where the, theinformation that the world is

(40:23):
trying to tell you is like.
What is that thing that youwant to get away from?
I think that's a much morecommon experience for men out
there that isn't on the extreme.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yeah it's funny, the, the have a tablespoon of
concrete and hire them, fuck up.
And when I was asking you I waslike what's the?
You know what's the, what's thetrick, what's what can be done,
and you're like, oh well,there's a bit of magic.
But really it's actually thesoftening, it's the like I say
this is me trying to acquirekind of pull your wisdom.

(40:54):
But I can kind of feel that,yeah, this, this societal drive
for guys to be so hard and sostoic and know there's so much
out there on social media aboutlike stoic philosophies for men
and everything like that.
But yeah, the magic for me isin the softness, is I?
I generally find like if I havea softer conversation with a

(41:14):
friend, it's so healing.
Um, I I find it's the play, it,it's letting my guard down, it's
being silly, being a kid again.
That's magic for me in terms ofretuning my energy and taking
that weight of pressure off myshoulders.
It's all the timeself-inflicted but it's kind of

(41:36):
taught.
It's like to be a man is to beso purposeful.
That's to be plain.
Just get on with life.
Come on, realize that potentialof yours.
You've so much potential and Ifind like the kind of the norms
in terms of when I open up, youknow that like I'll share.

(41:56):
How could you be feeling that,like you've got so much going
for you, that actually justobviously makes things worse,
because that's the verypunishment you're giving
yourself the whole time.
I have so much going for me.
Why am I feeling like this?
And someone says that back toyou.
It's like yeah, yeah, you'repointing at the issue all the
more.
Or in ireland, if you sayanything, I'm not sure there's
children in africa starving, theone thing, I thought about

(42:20):
trump guilt card.
The one thing I found soconfronting is when I went to
over to africa and I worked intownships and I met some of
these kids that were starving.
They were so fucking happy.
Yeah, they were like a degreeof happiness that I didn't know
and I was like there's somethingvery strange going on here, uh.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
But I do feel it's odd that, like there's gonna be
a great twist for your kids.
It's like when they're likeangry or upset, you'd be like
there's children in Africa thatare really happy right now.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
I, I, I.
I think it's odd that, likethat's the go-to response.
How are you doing?
You've got everything going foryou yeah there's children in.
Africa why, isn't it likewhat's on top of you Totally?
How is that?

Speaker 2 (43:07):
Because it's so easy, just to go.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Oh, what's wrong?
How are you?
How are you really feeling?
Like that's so simple.
Why do we auto-tune to thelittle people's issues?

Speaker 2 (43:17):
I think vulnerability is really frightening.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
And exploring that in the context of, let's say, a
relationship, a partner's down,and someone says how are you?

Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, it's really hard, especially in a lot of
relationships, especially ifthere's a focus on happiness, to
be like for a guy, just to belike.
I'm really hurting right now, Ifeel confused, I feel lost
right now.
It's a hard thing to do withthat cultural narrative.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
And sorry, I get it, because if I was to look at my
partner suffering and I was tosay how are you?
And she's like I'm reallysuffering, there's an immediate
anxiety that comes up in me Am Ithe bringer of your suffering?
And like, oh, but surely youcan be something like we have so
much going for ourself.
What about this and what aboutthat?

(44:09):
Is the kids in Africa?
Okay?
And so for the parents chattingto a kid and the kid is like
I'm so unhappy, immediatelyspeaking, the parent is
interpreting that as I'm doing abad job, I'm not good enough.
And wait a second, I am goodenough yeah, there must be
something wrong.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
What we, we practice a thing called like I have two
kids, one six and one's threesix months, one three years, and
we practice something called away of parenting.
It's been kind of arevolutionary light set.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
I've been hearing a lot about this, oh yeah, from
yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
From who Dylan?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, deep init.
It is profound.
So basically the entire thingis you be with whatever emotion
is coming up in your kids andyou listen and you be like I
hear that, you know I get that.
I really get that.
That's it, and we're not goingto do it for this if there's a

(45:00):
reason, and then you're justwith them and feeling whatever
they're feeling Raging,screaming sadness, it doesn't
matter what it is, but you'rereally there, which is the
opposite to what happens, whichis distraction.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
So bear with me.
The kid starts crying and theinstinctive reaction of most
parents is to shut the kid upTotally.
So like I'll play with this toyor we'll do this, we'll bounce
you up and down and the kid isgetting more annoyed.
He's like hey, you're notlistening to me, you're not
hearing me.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Yeah, until he shuts down.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
and dissociates, yes.
And then actually, once theshutdown and the disassociate is
like great, we can sleep now.
Yeah, and so that behavior isfostered, yes, whereas what
you're practicing is like a kidstarts crying and you look him
in the eyes and you're like, oh,I'm sorry, you must be feeling
a lot right now.
And it's like, oh, and you'rereally struggling to express

(45:49):
yourself at the same time too,I'm sorry, that must be so much.
I'm here with you and you knowyou kick, you scream, you shout,
let it out and let's get to theother side of this together,
100%.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
And that has been like the results of that, for
you have been uh, fascinating,because we didn't with our first
child, we didn't know about andwe did with our second and
first.
It would empower me as a fatherso much more because I have a
capacity to be with my kids,even as a little baby crying.
But I that before it'd be like,oh, gotta go to the mother,

(46:24):
gotta go to the boob, which is away to control it's.
This is delicate for peoplelistening to it.
So you, if the baby or kid youknow doesn't have a dirty diaper
, if they're not hungry, ifthey're well fed, if there's no
physical distress or pain orsickness, we're talking about
these situations.
It's just a buildup of emotions.
Before I've got my wife andI've gone the boob for comfort

(46:46):
and soothing and I'd go to sleep, but it was just stuffing down,
repressing whatever emotion Iwas feeling.
It was like giving them a candybar.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Basically, with our second child, because I wasn't
there and because I had thismethodology, I can be with my
young son and crying and tears,and just be there loving and
supporting.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
And you see them, it's move through, it builds up
to crescendo and then they justlike, they look.
Either they just sit and lookat me with this feeling of look
of wonder and relaxation orthey're just fall asleep.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
And I feel like it's such a gift for this little boy
and this little girl to me notto them to be able to honor how
they're feeling in the moment,at that moment and not feel like
it has to change you know um Idon't want to like move so

(47:38):
quickly that you don't thinkwhat I share there is actually
beautiful, true, but if you wereto like say and jamie, the
impact in terms of cry time is,whereas before I was spending
this much time crying, now it'sperhaps reduced unknowns you
listen to way more crying okay,oh my god, yes, way more.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
Because before you you distract out of the emotion
of crying and feeling and raging.
And now you're with it and atoddler I don't know if you've
been around a three-year-oldthat's pissed off it can last
for a long time.
Okay, it's way.
It'd be way easier and way lesstime consuming and way less
difficult.
I'd be way happier at certaintimes not to do it, okay.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
So much more To me with no kids, and just this fear
of listening to non-stop cryingthat does scare me a little bit
.
Well, it does stop.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
It might take a while to stop.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
But this kind of goes actually back to like, let's
say, I'm all about like findingwhat I call pillars of wisdom,
like one thing that kind ofreflects itself in so much, and
so it is hard to endure thecrime.
Yeah, but ultimately speaking,that approach is probably gonna
stand to you a hell of a lotmore in later years, whereas it

(48:54):
will be so easy to want to say,let's get you some boob and
let's put this crime to bed.
But I can definitely in my head, what I'm seeing is that sewing
the framework for I'm angry,let's get you some sweets.
I'm angry, let's give you a dayat school.
I'm angry, let's support you inthis way.

(49:15):
I'm angry, let's buy you a carand all sorts of stuff.
So you're tackling apotentially really destructive
and toxic habit at the get-go100%.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
I mean, if my daughter is in the middle of a
rage, I know for sure if I turnon YouTube and give it to her,
she will stop immediatelyBecause she doesn't really get
many screens.
But it's fascinating and thatwould be a lot easier.
But I find myself doing thatwith YouTube around emotions, if

(49:47):
I'm not conscious and aware,and I'm feeling just sad or
whatever.
I'm just like what have I beendoing for the past 20 minutes?
Oh, should I actually dosomething for me to feel?
But what I've learned is adistraction.
So the equivalent for an adultof this is that you go to your
friend and you're like, hey, I'mfeeling really sad, this thing
happened, I'm just feeling a bitrough.
And they go go, look, do youknow what's?

Speaker 1 (50:10):
happening next week, you know what we're doing next
week?

Speaker 2 (50:11):
oh, we're going to go to that park and this is
literally the way that most kids, most kids, are raised.
And what's really crazy, whenyou start noticing yourself,
right, or you go back and spendtime with your parents, yeah,
and you see the way thatinteracting with you, or
interacting with with your ownkids, and, oh, there's no wonder
, it's complex and challengingfor me to feel my own emotions
because, from a very, very youngage, me, like many others, have

(50:41):
been distracted out of feelingwhat needs to be felt, which
ties into what we were talkingabout before with men, and not
being able to express what it isthey're feeling yeah the screen
time that you mentioned therefor me is really interesting.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
I am I.
Do you know why a laptop iscalled a laptop?
No, because you place it onyour lap.
Yes, on top of your lap.
Steve Jobs used to get the oldcomputers and literally sit them
on his lap, and he also said hedidn't want his kids anywhere
near Apple products.
Fuck, and I'm just.

(51:18):
I think there's well.
I'm anxious, in the years tocome, how bad we're going to see
screen time is and how toxic itcan be.
What's the conscious decisionon your side in terms of reduced
screen time for your kids.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
They basically don't have any.
There's three exceptions.
One is when we take longflights, we travel a lot, and
then she can watch whatever shewants.
The other is if everyone's kindof sick and at the very like
just edge of all of ourcapacities as a family, then
we'll watch a movie.
And the other one is when shebrushes her teeth wow yeah, any

(51:54):
particular thought.
We we had a real tough timegetting a toothbrush.
You know we didn't have thetools to to do it and it just
developed into a habit.
And then she also fell off achair and split her front tooth,
so it's actually a.
She had to have a root canaland it's a filling which for
toddlers filling so last threewell.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
So we had to put a make sure it's well brushed okay
yeah, so that the other threeexceptions of screen time good
exceptions, yeah, I'm.
You talked about kind of likewhen you brought up coping
mechanisms quite a bitthroughout this and I think that
awareness of your own copingmechanisms and how distract like
coping mechanisms work to apoint they soothe and they can

(52:35):
be supportive, but when they'redistracting you away from
feeling something that's neededto be felt and something that's
going to really serve you well,I kind of think it's quite sad
and I recognize there's so manytimes that I've distracted
myself with tv or food or Idon't know what else, as I say
it with a big, like very guilty,looking face on me.

(52:58):
Um, yeah, it's amazing howdestructive or destructive is
wrong, although obviously itgets to it, but how you just
miss out on so much uh, so muchlearning, so much value.
Um, because obviously, forwhatever feeling is coming up
and you, there's wisdom in it,but if you don't get to feel it,
you don't get that wisdom.
You kind of end up going aroundin a loop, unfortunately yeah

(53:20):
100.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
I think I, like many men, wouldn't even really
realize even this whole languageof feelings of most guys.
It's not a, it's not a colorpalette which they have access
to.
So even the idea of numbing,for me, if I go back a few years
ago like I didn't really get it, you know, because I didn't
know that was numbing away fromfeeling something.

(53:42):
I just be like oh, I feel a bitflat, so I'm gonna watch a movie
or whatever it is, but I knowthis would happen more and more
and more.
So the conversation is almostlike um, what are you doing on a
regular basis that's notfilling you like, what are you
doing on a regular basis that'snot giving you energy or
vitality or fulfillment?
And then look into that areaand that's the area you want to

(54:03):
put attention on, and next timeyou go to do it, try not.
And noticing literally noticinghow you feel and noticing what
comes up.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
Food's my beast, like food for me is just so.
This is so obvious at times,like when I'm actually to take
it a little bit step further andsomeone described stress.
Someone described stress to merecently is when you find
yourself doing all the thingsyou know you shouldn't, and with

(54:35):
food I notice so many timeswhen I overeat and I overeat
because I'm feeling so much andit numbs that out, um, but it's
just such an obvious like you'reout of sorts journey, but the
downfall from it is really, it'sreally frustrating.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Yeah, it's like it perpetuates itself, right?
Because you overeat, you feellike shit.
You wake up, you feel like shit, you don't feel like doing the
thing that would really serveyou, and I think that's the case
with a lot of numbingmechanisms they tend towards a
downward spiral rather thanupward spiral exactly that
downward spiral and the timewhen you actually really really
need something to lift you upyeah it pulls you down and it

(55:18):
becomes all the harder in thosecircumstances to do something
that will serve you for thebetter.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
And you know what a fantastic trick is.
Trick the right word, I don'tknow.
Trick is with this is that nexttime you notice it, what I'd
invite you to do is do it 100%consciously.
Be like I'm feeling something.
Oh, I just ordered that triplewhat's?

Speaker 1 (55:40):
your go-to comfort food.
Oh my God.
It just goes on and on and onin hundreds of different
directions.
But I love where you're goingwith this, because I had a
little nelta and, a few monthsago, something just lacking up,
I basically missed threeconsecutive flights.
It's so laughable.
Like I was meant to be going tomy friend's birthday and I

(56:00):
missed the flight, so I bookedanother, missed that, booked
another, missed that, and atthat point I was like I need to
change gears here and I was likewhat are all the things that I
love doing that I know are awfulfor me?
I'm gonna do them all yeah yeah, and how was it?
it was amazing, right.
Firstly, I got to really enjoya load of things that I haven't
been doing for a while.

(56:20):
It's like I it was.
I got so like, I was so angryand then I was like I'm going to
turn this around, I'm gonna,I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this,
and I started getting reallygiddy and excited about doing.
What was amazing for me was thenext day.
I woke up so light, yeah, and Iwas like, ah, prior to that, I
would have sort of seen copingmechanisms as very toxic, and in

(56:43):
that moment I was like no,these are helpful, these can be
useful, these can actuallybridge me and they can.
They can just change my energy.
I mean a bad habit can beliberating with awareness you
know, I hope I haven't like dugmyself into a hole and you're
like aha, jamie, now you'reabout to see that this is much

(57:03):
bigger and worse than you thinkthe opposite.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
I think, if, if you're, if your go-to uh numbing
is watching a tv series or amovie when you know it's
probably not the best thing foryou, the best thing to do in the
beginning, particularly, is tolike a hundred percent, do it be
like this time, this day.
I'm just gonna do this and I'mgonna give myself full
permission to enjoy this and Ido it with the food that I love
to do, and I'm gonna do it belike this time, this day.
I'm just gonna do this and I'mgonna give myself full
permission to enjoy this and Ido it with the food that I love

(57:28):
to do, and I'm gonna do itcompletely and fully and be
aware of it and the joy of it inthe moment.
I think that's a beautifullyfreeing thing.
I think that's really valuable.
In my experiences, when I dothat, um, the funk that I'm in
lasts much longer and if it's ameal, I may not even finish it,
or if it's a movie, I may noteven finish it.
I just needed some permissionto to do that thing.

(57:52):
It's been caught in the middleof it.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
That creates so much of the stickiness yeah, when I'm
hearing you share that.
What's coming up for me is,let's say, like the different
layers on my journey.
So there was a certain pointwhere I lived so linearly.
It was like I need to behealthy, I need to go to the gym
like this, I need to follow myroutine.
My structure became sostressful and so unenjoyable and

(58:16):
now what I'm recognizing it islike jamie, you can have your
cake and eat.
Yeah, like the structure andeverything serves to a point,
but balance it out then withsome complete mad behavior.
A hundred percent.
And there's medicine in that.
And I feel sometimes with dietsand stuff, it's like you know,
sometimes people will get inthis habit of a new diet and
it's like the diet for the restof their life and it's actually

(58:37):
there's no freedom in that,there's no real growth in that,
there's just constraint.
And I love this new layer thatI've learned of like now you
can't make mechanisms have theirplace, it's just perhaps there
may be a level of discipline out, a conscious of time.
But I have one last questionfor you on that what are your

(58:58):
thoughts on alcoholism?
Oh okay, can you be morespecific?
Yeah, I right, the AA's kind ofteachings around alcoholism and
addiction are that you knowonce you've found trouble in
alcohol.
And I know you're not an expertand I'm like the caveat on this
conversation that he waslistening is we're not experts

(59:19):
in any way.
This is just two peopleexploring a subject because I'm
really curious on what you mighthave to share in this.
People exploring a subject,because I'm really curious on
what you might have to share inthis.
So the kind of understandingaround somebody that has trouble
with alcohol is that once theyrecognize that they have trouble
, well, they recognizethemselves as an alcoholic,
somebody who should stay awayand abstain from alcohol
forevermore.
And that kind of turns my theorywith regards to like no,

(59:40):
everything has its place inmoderation and balance on its
head a little bit, and my beliefwith the kind of the teachings
around addiction and alcoholismis that they're constrained a
little bit.
It's like, yeah, it's a hugething to get yourself to the
point of control and restrictionwhere you just don't have it,
but there's a missing element ofgrowth beyond that that can

(01:00:00):
help bring you to a whole otherlevel of freedom where you can
enjoy a drink again.
Now, whether you want to or notis a whole other level of
freedom where you can enjoy itagain now, whether you want to
or not.
It's a whole other thing.
I'm just curious.
I just and this is me justexpressing a random subject that
comes up in my head that I'd bereally keen to explore with
somebody that I admire andappreciate perspective
definitely not an expert in thisrealm, though alcoholism, in

(01:00:22):
different ways, surrounds me, II would say I lean more towards
what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
I think there's a danger in identifying and
locking anything in rigid andwho we are, because if there's
one thing that I know, thatwe're not rigid.
We change all of the time and byvirtue of the fact that I know
and I know of alcoholics thathave been through the journey
and come out the other side andhave a different relationship to

(01:00:47):
it, I can only imagine thatthat's possible and that would
feel more freeing than I am not,or I am as a linear metric and
concurrently I can hold that.
People have chemical imbalancesand people have deep lineage,
long addiction histories and, um, even certain ethnicities have

(01:01:14):
vitamin deficiencies that lendthem more towards alcoholism
right.
So I think it may be in somecases that someone's dharma or
someone's purpose is that is theonly way to navigate through it
.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
But I would hope for a lot of people that there's
this space to hold more thanjust a binary stance at some
point if alcoholism is introuble so I, um, I introduced
you at the start of this podcastas somebody that I really look
up to and admire as a man, as apartner, as a father, and

(01:01:47):
there's quite a joy in justthrowing a random question at
somebody.
I like it and seeing how theyrespond.
I think for anybody listeningon, you'd be like he's.
He's actually naturally thatpolished.
It's like you and Jamescasually.
You mean James in in a in amore kind of a supportive

(01:02:09):
setting and he is that naturally.
And I I'm just at all like, whenone can work with themselves to
the point that they can come ata question like that with from
so many different angles, tickall the boxes and I always used
to I love this idea of beingable to communicate in an
unfathomable sorry, anunfathomable fashion where it
can't be really critiqued.
It's like that's a whole answer, that's a beautiful answer.

(01:02:31):
So thank you for taking thetime to share with me.
Thank you for, um, yeah,sharing your ideas in so many
subjects and humoring me in allthe different spheres.
Uh, james, if somebody wantedto reach out to you, if they
were curious, listening and theywere like, wow, I'd love to
talk to that guy, is that okay?
Yeah, no, it's totally okay andthe best way to do that is
Instagram.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Yeah, the reason you saw me pause is that I've been
off social media now for a fewmonths.
Yeah, it'd be my websitejamesmattinglycom, or my
Instagram.