September 30, 2025 • 54 mins
Shame can feel endless—like a tunnel with no exits. We unpack why it grips so hard, how it colonizes your thoughts and body, and what it actually takes to climb back to steady ground. With Melissa’s trauma therapy lens and our lived experience, we separate guilt from shame, map the nervous system states (ventral safety, sympathetic fight/flight, dorsal shutdown), and show how those “turtle shell” moments quietly damage connection unless we repair them with honest words and consistent action.
We trace roots across childhood messages, cultural and faith expectations, and relationship patterns that fuse behavior to identity. Words matter; “you are bad” sinks deeper than “that choice hurt.” You’ll hear practical language swaps, why journaling moves feelings into facts the brain can work with, and how to spot the exact moment a spiral shifts from defensiveness to collapse. We talk resilience, emotional safety, and attachment—what a safe relationship really sounds like, and why repair starts with owning the spiral, naming its impact, and inviting others to flag early warning signs without fear.
For parents and partners, we offer tools you can use today: grounding scripts, two-column journaling (Facts vs Story), device and social media resets, and how to build a circle of safe adults for teens who won’t talk to mom or dad. We also dig into the comparison trap online—how curated feeds inflate expectations and intensify shame—and how a short detox can visibly reduce anxiety, depression, and isolation. Finally, we reframe shame as a signal rather than a sentence: convert “I am bad” into “I made a mistake,” then repair, regulate, and reconnect.
If this conversation hits home, subscribe, share with someone who needs it, and leave a review with the one tool you’ll try this week. Your words help others find a way out of the spiral—and back to themselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Have you ever replayed a mistake in your head so many times that it starts to feel like it defines you? Maybe it was something you said, a failure at work, a relationship gone wrong — and instead of moving past it, you sink deeper and deeper into that pit of self-blame. That’s what we call a shame spiral. It’s not just feeling guilty about something you did; it’s feeling like who you are is broken or unworthy. Andwhen you're in it, it can feel
endless.
On today's episode, Melissa andI are digging into the reality
of shame spiraling, why ithappens, how it takes hold of
us, and most importantly, how wecan stop it before it consumes
us.
And we're going to talk aboutwhere shame comes from, the role
culture and relationships play,and what it takes to break free
from that cycle.
If you've ever felt trapped inyour own head, this one's for
(00:20):
you.
Before we go too far, let'sstart at the beginning.
When we say shame spiral, whatexactly are we talking about?
Melissa (00:26):
Well, it looks different for different people.
I think about, you know, everyone of us has done it, right?
I left an abusive marriage.
And there was definitely ashame spiral after that.
A spiral of, I'm the problem.
And why am I not good enoughfor other people?
(00:47):
Why am I not good enough to betreated better?
I'm never going to be treatedwell.
So I may as well just sit alonefor the rest of my life.
I think about shame spiralsthat people go through after
some kind of, you know, crime iscommitted against them.
Whether it's an assault or aburglary of did I somehow cause
(01:12):
this?
Or thinking about the kids andthey're called out on something
and instantly they're angry anddefensive and then blow up and
sink into a pit of depression.
Evan (01:28):
How's that different from guilt or embarrassment?
I mean, everybody getsconvicted at times and they feel
guilty.
They feel embarrassed.
They might lash out in asimilar way.
How is shame spiralingdifferent?
Melissa (01:39):
Sure.
If we feel guilty aboutsomething, first of all, guilt
is I know that I did somethingwrong.
And I can see that.
And I have this feeling insideof me that I just didn't didn't
do what I was supposed to.
Shame, on the other hand, is Ihave this expectation and my
(02:03):
performance didn't meet myexpectation.
So it's not necessarily that Idid something morally wrong.
It's that my reality versusexpectation just didn't match.
So when we talk about this,it's the the guilt side, it's
almost more of the fact side.
(02:23):
It's provable.
I took something from somebody,and now I feel guilty because I
know I took something andthey're gonna find out.
And I feel guilty about itbecause I did wrong.
Shame is more perception.
Shame is I perceive thatsomething is my fault when it
(02:43):
might not be, or I perceive thatsomebody is blaming me for
something, but maybe theyaren't, or maybe they are and
it's unjustified.
Evan (02:52):
And what's a shame spiral actually feel like?
So we talked about feelings.
What does a shame spiral feellike?
Feels like to me, maybe guiltor embarrassment is a short-term
thing.
What's a shame spiral feellike?
Melissa (03:05):
Well, I think with guilt, it's easier to resolve
it.
You know, I can go and say, I'msorry for what I did, I can
make it right.
Shame is a very internalprocess of those demons that you
fight within yourself.
And really, guilt, that'sthat's the cusp of it.
Guilt is an external, shame isan internal process.
(03:28):
So when I'm shame spiraling,I'm really fighting with myself.
And I'm fighting my ownthoughts and my own feelings of
inadequacy, whether they'reaccurate or not.
Evan (03:42):
Why why is it so much more consuming than other emotions?
Melissa (03:46):
Because it has to do with self.
I have to forgive myselfinstead of relying.
You and I, outside of here,have talked a lot about external
validation and why some peopleneed to have external validation
of thoughts, ideas, identity,whatever it is.
(04:06):
And why is that externalvalidation so important?
Well, because it's not your ownhead.
Whereas with a shame spiral,I'm fighting the voices in my
own head and need my own head totell me that it's okay.
Evan (04:19):
For those people that need that external validation, does
that typically come from someonewho has such a low self-esteem
or a low opinion of oneselfinternally that they seek the
external validation to replacetheir own internal negativity
about themselves?
Melissa (04:36):
Well, yes.
And I think it's more importantto look at where that internal
negativity come from.
And so a lot of it oftentimescomes from trauma.
It can also come from subtlemessages that we were given
throughout our life.
Those messages that your voicedoesn't matter, your ideas don't
(04:56):
matter, you're not as good asother people around you.
Even the parent who constantlysteps in when their kid has a
little bit of a hard time, theyjump in, they're like, I can do
this for you.
Breeds a sense of incompetencein kids.
And now, why am I gonna bothertrying if I'm just not gonna be
(05:16):
able to do it?
Somebody else can do it better.
And so then when we fail, thatself-talk can come out of, well,
this is just who I am.
It's very internalized into whoI am as a human, not just an
act.
Guilt is an act that I didwrong.
Shame is who I am.
Evan (05:34):
You've transitioned perfectly into a uh the next
topic that I was gonna askabout, which is the roots of
shame.
Seems like it's it's rooted inyour childhood and trauma.
Experience.
In in you know, culturalexpectations, you know,
expectations that you'vereceived from your, you know,
religious background or familydynamics.
(05:57):
Are those really the commonsort of roots of where shame
comes from?
Melissa (06:02):
They sure are.
I mean, what are some thingsthat you've felt shame over?
Evan (06:06):
Sometimes the way the way I've prepared the kids for life
at times.
So that's the way I've the wayI've responded or acted in
certain situations.
Melissa (06:14):
So where did you learn those things?
Evan (06:16):
Yeah, some of it is is my own childhood, some of it is,
you know, cultural expectationsand looking around and seeing
how other parents are parentingtheir kids or how other kids
are, you know, supposedly beingprepared for the world.
I guess in some ways, you haveto give yourself a little grace
because not everything is whatit appears to be.
Very true.
Melissa (06:36):
Well, we only know what we know, right?
Right.
Know better, do better.
So when we don't realize howthings like our words.
Words have a lot of value.
Remember the old phrase, sticksand stones may break my bones,
but words will never hurt me.
I mean, how much further fromthe truth can we actually get?
Evan (06:56):
So so true.
I just did a an equalizerseries episode on speech and the
power of it.
And you know, I went back tothe sort of roots of speech, and
I really tied speech back tocreation.
So if you read the Bible, ifyou're a Bible believer, and if
you're not, check out your checkout your favorite text, you
know, religious text.
(07:17):
It's in all of them, really.
But the beginnings of theworld, especially in biblical
Christianity, God said, Letthere be light.
And if you read throughGenesis, the the opening chapter
of Genesis, you'll see thateverything that was created on
the earth and around the earth,the heavens and everything
around it, everything wascreated through speech.
God said, Do this.
(07:39):
God said this.
God said, Let there be man, andhe created man.
Melissa (07:43):
He speaks everything into creation.
Evan (07:46):
And we know from the Bible that we are created in God's
image.
And so if we extrapolate thatout, we have many, if not all,
of the same powers that God has.
So our speech can breathe life.
And in fact, the Bible tells usthat our speech is both life
and death.
And we know that the importanceof speech, even from Jesus, is
(08:09):
critical.
We know from the Bible thatJesus said every idle and
careless word that we speak willbe judged in heaven.
And so speech is a huge, hugecomponent of every portion of
our life.
It can unite, it can divide, itcan break down walls, and it
can build them up.
Melissa (08:26):
Have you ever heard about, you know, whatever's in
your heart is what comes outyour mouth?
Have you heard it?
Evan (08:32):
Yeah, I've heard it.
I don't know that I completelyagree with it, but I've heard
it.
I think that people can saythings sometimes that don't they
don't necessarily mean orbelieve or at least have
conviction behind.
They just say things.
It comes from somewhere.
It certainly does.
And I think, I think, again,when we go back to speech, you
(08:52):
know, God's not the only onethat used speech.
Right.
The serpent tempted Eve withthe apple and with speech.
And so that's just more proofthat it can build up, it can
tear down, it can be used forgood, it can be used for better.
But it all comes from insidefor good purposes.
Melissa (09:08):
It it you're right.
And it it all comes from thatplace inside of feelings.
Evan (09:13):
Sure.
Melissa (09:14):
And if I'm feeling frustrated, I might snap and say
something that I don't reallymean, but I still said it.
It's still words that came frommy heart, and I didn't filter
it, and out it came.
Whether it's valid in themoment, because if we really
look at our feelings, feelingsare a snapshot of a moment as
(09:38):
part of an experience in time.
And, you know, I could feelsomething or feel away about
something right now, and in fiveminutes, I could feel
completely differently about it.
I don't know how men work, it'sdefinitely how women work.
So I think about that.
And really, we don't considerhow those words impact the other
(10:01):
humans around us.
And when a kid is told this isthis is a good example.
You are bad versus the choiceyou made was bad.
Or, you know, you areincompetent versus your
performance was subpar.
(10:22):
When we attach the person tothat trait, it internalizes and
it it soaks deep into our souland it becomes part of who we
are.
So for years and years andyears, I was given messages that
I wasn't good enough, thatnobody else would want me, that
(10:42):
nobody would want to, you know,help raise my children, that I
was never gonna find somebodybetter because this person knew
me inside and out.
Well, those messages all sunkin.
And those were all things thatI struggled with shame over.
Feeling inadequate, feelingunworthy, feeling just like I,
(11:06):
who I was, would never be enoughfor anybody.
And those were messages that mykids received.
So those are all areas that wehave to work through.
Otherwise, we will foreverstruggle with shame.
Evan (11:18):
Are some people more prone to shame spirals than others?
Melissa (11:22):
That I'm sure that that has a lot to do with how we
rebound, with how resilient weare.
And I mean, definitelyresiliency.
I have seen people go throughmore than I think I could ever
bear.
And yet they're on the otherside.
It didn't break them.
But resiliency, again, is veryinternal.
(11:43):
And our ability to managedistress is something that we're
taught.
Are we sitting in things?
Are we sitting in thosefeelings knowing that we have
somebody supporting us?
Do we feel emotionally safe inour relationships?
Do we feel like we can go tosomebody and say, hey, I'm
struggling with this?
(12:04):
And that they're gonna say, Howcan I help?
Is there anything that I cando?
Is there is there anything I'mdoing that's not helping?
And I think most people don'thave relationships like that.
Eve with with parents, withspouses, with friends, where
they can just say, This is whereI'm at, and and realize they
(12:26):
won't be judged for it.
Evan (12:28):
What kind of situations tend to trigger these shame
spirals in in everyday life?
Is it sort of r randomizedbased on the individual and
their distress tolerance?
Is it is there something that'smore likely to cause it than
others and in the majority ofpeople?
What can lead to this on a on ayou know not day-to-day basis,
(12:49):
but on an everyday sort of youknow occurrence?
Melissa (12:52):
Way to ask a hard one.
Because it really isindividualized.
You know, what may have causedme to sink into shame years ago
doesn't impact me anymorebecause of the work that I've
done on myself internally.
And we look at younger people,and what might cause a shame
(13:13):
spiral for one might be a bullyat school that says you're ugly,
and then they they spin andspiral.
And what that really means isthey stop functioning, they sink
into a world where they don'thave to deal with the parts of
themselves that they don't like.
(13:35):
Instead of grabbing hold, andthis is where we as parents
really need to help our kids torecognize that this is what's
happening and to bring it intothe light and talk about it.
Because just as much assomebody's words have harmed
that child or that partner orfriend or whoever, words heal
(13:55):
it.
And so often I sit in a therapyroom and tell people what you
tell yourself is what becomestrue.
So if you continue to tellyourself, wow, I'm awful, I
don't deserve good things.
The world is miserable andnegative.
And the more you tell yourselfthose things, the truer it
(14:18):
becomes.
And on the opposite of that is,even if you don't feel it in
the beginning, hey, I do deserveto be loved.
I do deserve to havepartnership, I do deserve to be
treated with respect or kindnessor understanding.
Then that is what you breedoutside of that therapy room.
Evan (14:42):
Can you walk us through what's happening in the brain
and the body when someone getsstuck in a shame spiral?
Sure.
Nervous system.
Melissa (14:51):
Everything is about our nervous system.
And when we recognize that thenervous system's job is to keep
us safe, that's it.
So when we start, hopefully westart out in this ventral space
that is safety.
It's the ability to play, it'ssocial engagement, it's eye
contact and connection andgenerally feeling safe, but
(15:15):
having this level of neuroawareness.
What else is in my vicinitythat might be a threat?
And then as this threat comesin, that's when parts of our
fight or flight system or thesympathetic nervous system start
to come online.
We start to move, we start toshift, we start to adapt.
And then at some point, thethreat becomes so great, so so
(15:38):
imminent here that our factbrain, our sense of safety goes
offline.
And now we're in pure fight orflight mode.
Now I'm full of energy.
I'm either running or I'mattacking, or maybe I'm just
really excited becausesomething's happening.
(15:59):
In the case of shame, this iswhen somebody is defensive.
They're yelling at you, they'retrying to convince you that
what they did wasn't wrong or itwasn't their fault or it's
somebody else's.
They're trying to takewhatever's coming at them and
displace it.
And the moment they realizethey can't do that, that's when
(16:19):
fight or flight goes offline.
And now we have sunken into thepit of the dorsal nervous
system.
And that's a turtle shell.
I don't like the realityoutside.
And really, what this is, it'sthe most primitive part of our
nervous system, the part thatplays dead, the part that goes
(16:40):
underwater and slows down itsbreathing and slows down just
oxygen consumption and how ourbody's processing something.
And we disappear.
So we just can't see what's outthere.
And then we sit there until wefeel like the world is safe
again.
The problem is if we want toget back up to safety, we still
(17:03):
have to come back up and throughthe fight or flight and the
feelings and the discomfort.
And that's where people getstuck.
Evan (17:12):
Is that why shame tends to feed on itself and it gets
worse instead of fading becauseyou kind of get stuck at the
bottom and not wanting to, orbeing able maybe to transition
back through that fight orflight?
Melissa (17:25):
Absolutely.
And even deeper into that,there's a part of us that can
get stuck down there.
So if I'm five years old when Ifeel shame because, you know, I
didn't do something that I wassupposed to do, if I don't
resolve that and go back upthrough it in a successful way,
(17:47):
that little five-year-old partof me gets stuck down there.
So I physically move forward.
I'm physically carrying on withmy life.
But this emotionalfive-year-old that got hurt is
captured down there holding thiswound.
And then every time somethingtriggers that experience, here's
my five-year-old part comingright back out again.
(18:09):
And that's where we have to dothe work of finding those root
causes of things and recognizingwhat part of me is this that's
reacting in this way?
And then we have to revisit itand disconnect and finish
resolving what caused the shameon an emotional level in order
(18:30):
to move forward.
This is why we see so manyemotionally stunted adults
walking around.
Evan (18:35):
Yeah.
Is there such a thing as shameabout shame or being embarrassed
about even feeling shame?
Do you do you see that in inclients?
Melissa (18:44):
Or sure.
I mean, we all get embarrassedwhen we recognize that something
that we're doing is unhealthy.
And human nature is to try tohide it.
This is why this is why whenyou see your four-year-old with
chocolate all over their faceafter you told them they
(19:04):
couldn't have the chocolate chipcookie before dinner, and then
they snuck into the cookie jarand took it and ate it and
thought that they were gettingone over on you.
That's why you say, Hey, didyou have the cookie?
They lie to you because theyknow that they did something
wrong.
They don't want you to findout, they don't want to be in
trouble.
They're embarrassed that nowyou're like, hey, but there's
chocolate on your face.
(19:25):
And that's when shame can sinkin.
If we go at that child overtheir actions instead of looking
at the moral construct of it.
Evan (19:40):
And is that kind of the spiral effect where you go
through all of the emotionalaspects, you go through all the
ways that the brain and the bodyreact to these kinds of
situations, and then you know,you start to feel bad about ever
having felt bad, and then itjust cycles back to I'm
terrible, I'm terrible, I'mterrible because I feel bad
(20:02):
about feeling bad.
Melissa (20:04):
It certainly can.
And, you know, on the positiveside of that, it does require
that someone has some type ofmoral compass because your
people that have no moralcompass won't even feel bad
about it.
Evan (20:16):
Yeah, your narcissists or what's the other one?
BPD.
Melissa (20:20):
Borderlines.
Evan (20:21):
Borderlines.
They don't realize thosenegative things.
They don't see it as negativesbecause they don't care.
Is that what it comes down to?
Melissa (20:30):
Sort of, but also not.
So they can feel shame overfeeling like they disappointed
themselves, but don't recognizeharm to others.
So they won't feel shamebecause they screamed and yelled
at you.
They will feel shame if they goout and get drunk because of
(20:56):
all of the emotions.
They might feel shame for doingsomething that they didn't want
to do, but it's not somethingthat they did to you.
Does that make sense?
Evan (21:04):
Kind of.
I I mean, I would say notreally, because I'm neither a
therapist who's been schooled inthis, or a narcissist or, you
know, sociopath or whatever.
Right.
I don't I don't fullyunderstand how one can have no
remorse for how another personfeels.
I can conceptually understandit.
(21:26):
I mean, we've we've seen enoughof those things in the world,
and there's been, you know,horrible people throughout
history, Hitlers and Mao andStalins of the world who have
done terrible things and youknow killed millions of people
and had no remorse over it, orat least it doesn't appear that
there was ever any remorse overit.
So you know those kinds ofthings exist.
You know, either serial killersthat have killed and just you
(21:48):
know almost indiscriminately, ormaybe they've they've had their
predilections as to who they'retrying to kill, but they're
still able to take lives and notappear to feel remorse for it.
Melissa (21:57):
Even abusers chronically repeat the same
behaviors, and it will always bethe other person's fault.
Evan (22:04):
Right.
Melissa (22:05):
It's never theirs.
Evan (22:06):
Right.
So you know those things exist,but for me to be able to
empathize enough to put myselfin that position, I no, you
can't.
I can't.
I don't really understand it.
Yeah.
But I I understand the concept.
Melissa (22:19):
Well, and again, it's it is this broader concept that
when trauma happens, if I put upwalls to keep me safe and tuck
into my turtle shell where I'mthe good one in the center and
the world is bad and it's out toget me, then of course
everything is everybody else'sfault.
And I'm just doing what I needto keep myself safe.
(22:41):
Everybody else is the problem.
But if I have trauma andsomehow keep myself open to
everybody else in the worldmatters, and if I can just keep
the peace out there, then I'llbe safe.
That makes me a small part ofsomething that's spinning around
(23:05):
a greater object or entity oryou know, god in that, in that
sense.
Evan (23:11):
Give us the playbook here.
What are the first steps to hitpause on a shame spiral?
Melissa (23:15):
So I think the hard part about a shame spiral is the
person spiraling.
And no matter what somebodyelse does, that person is gonna
sit in it until they are readyto come out.
And that can be really hard forthe people around them to
recognize that this is going onand also to recognize that
(23:38):
there's nothing they can do.
So, in order for somebody tocome out of it, they really do
have to recognize that they'rein it.
Evan (23:46):
What's the first step when you finally do recognize that
you're in a shame spiral?
Melissa (23:50):
Well, it's that that dorsal turtle shell.
And I think that when peoplecome out of it, they want to
pretend like it didn't happen.
They want to pretend thateverything is normal and let's
just move on.
And that tends to be one of thebiggest problems that they'll
(24:11):
have to face.
Because while they have been intheir little turtle shell,
they've been causing destructionaround them.
And often that's destruction torelationships.
Because when you're spiraling,you're either externalizing and
yelling at people and slammingdoors and telling everybody to
(24:32):
go away, or sometimes you'redoing both, but you're
internalizing and disappearingand pushing people away and
having to deal with everythingon your own.
And so while you're now readyto come out of the turtle shell,
these people don't realize theymay have gotten over something,
but the other people aroundthem maybe haven't.
Evan (24:53):
Yeah.
So is the first step makingamends?
Is it, you know, continuing toshow your self, self-compassion?
What's the what's the playhere?
Melissa (25:03):
Well, I mean, I think acknowledging it is probably the
first step.
Acknowledging it to yourselfand acknowledging it to the
people around you who may bethinking you're mad at them.
They did something wrong.
They're left feeling unloved,not valued.
Sometimes they're just feelinglost and insecure in
(25:25):
relationship with you, and maybeeven afraid of getting backlash
or hurt.
So being able to go to peopleand say, you know, I'm I'm
really sorry that I did this.
I recognize why I did it.
And it's something that I'mgonna try to work on.
And then actually taking thetime to become more aware of
(25:48):
your own signs and symptoms, andmaybe being vulnerable enough
to ask the people around you tolook for those signs and try to
point them out next time.
Evan (25:58):
Sounds a little bit like a 12-step program here.
Melissa (26:03):
Yeah.
Do you do you know more of thesteps?
Evan (26:07):
Well, let's see.
The first one is admitting wehave a problem.
Melissa (26:11):
Right.
Evan (26:11):
Right?
Melissa (26:12):
Mm-hmm.
Evan (26:13):
And that you're powerless over it.
You're powerless over it.
What else?
Melissa (26:17):
I know making amends is definitely in there.
Evan (26:19):
Making amends is on there for sure.
Yep.
Taking a moral inventory ofourselves.
Melissa (26:25):
That would be a good one.
Evan (26:26):
Usually your Alcoholics Anonymous and stuff like that
have a lot of faith-based thingsin it.
So there's steps in there thatI don't think will apply to
every person listening to this.
But if you are faith-based, Ithink probably recognizing that
there's a a higher power andthat you have value in that
higher power's eyes, or youwouldn't have been created in
(26:47):
the first place.
Melissa (26:47):
Right.
Evan (26:48):
Probably plays a role here.
But all of that being said, howdo things like, you know,
you've talked aboutrelationships.
How does safe relationships andvulnerability help pull someone
out?
Or does it?
Does it help pull someone out?
Can can I mean obviouslythere's people that can just
take advantage of those kinds ofsituations and, you know, never
(27:08):
really change, but justcontinuously spiral and then
come out of it and say, well,it's okay because we have such a
safe relationship.
Melissa (27:16):
Right.
And and really what'sinteresting about this is you've
got the spiraler and thenyou've got the other person.
And the spiraler is really onlylooking at their own pain.
They're looking at what theyare internally struggling with
and are failing to recognizewhat they're then putting on
(27:37):
everybody else around them.
Yeah.
And that really is the hardpart because everybody else
doesn't know what arbitrarycriteria this person is using to
go in and out of shame.
They don't feel like it isemotionally safe anymore because
they could say one thing and itcauses somebody to go deeper in
(27:58):
a spiral.
Or they don't say something andthey don't engage and it causes
somebody to go deeper into aspiral.
And you never know moment tomoment whether you should say
something or you shouldn't saysomething because it's never the
same.
So I think it's important torecognize that this isn't all
just about the person spiraling.
This is also about the otherpeople around them who now have
(28:19):
to figure out how to get overthings too.
And sometimes this causesresentment in relationships.
It causes underlying fears.
It causes a disconnect.
And that's an emotionaldisconnect.
And it takes more to reconnectthan it does to disconnect.
Evan (28:40):
Yeah.
Especially tough with, Iimagine, children and people who
are underdeveloped emotionally,right?
It's probably a lot easier forsomeone like you who has done
the work and who understands allof what is going on with this
than it would be for what Iwould consider a lay person,
right?
A regular Joe, an average guy,average gal.
(29:00):
It's probably a lot tougher forthem to recognize what this is
and to accept that the person onthe other end of this is going
through this thing, and so it'sit's impacted them in a way
that's that's disconnected them.
You know, to to your point,right, we've all we always talk
about you don't want tonecessarily tell the child that
(29:21):
the child is bad, right?
But that action or thatdecision was wrong.
And I I think in the same way,you know, if you're someone who
is with someone who's goingthrough those things, it might
be easier for you to deal withit or somebody like you to deal
with it than it is for somebodywho I'm still human.
Melissa (29:40):
And that's the thing.
Even us as therapists, we'rewe're therapists all day, but
we're not a therapist toourself, and we can't be a
therapist to our kids.
And really, what we're talkingabout at the end of the day is
attachment.
We're talking about kids whoare struggling to form healthy
attachments.
Attachments to people.
(30:00):
We're talking about emotionalintelligence and emotional
growth and well-being oremotional immaturity.
And the more emotionally maturewe are, that's really why we
handle it better.
Yeah.
It's those parts of ourselfthat are stuck.
And it's that five-year-oldpart that comes out and says,
(30:21):
Why won't you connect with me?
This isn't fair.
And yet we're saying that toanother part that's really stuck
and little and doesn't reallycare about how other people feel
about it.
Evan (30:33):
Yeah.
So what kind of practical toolscan someone who recognizes that
they're in the shame spiral ormaybe a pa we were talking
earlier at lunch about how, youknow, th this podcast is is, I
think, targeted at people whohave some level of empathy or
understanding for the mentalhealth conditions and the and
(30:56):
and just mental health as awhole.
Melissa (30:58):
Self-reflection.
Evan (30:59):
Self-reflection, all of those things, right?
But some people listening tothis will be people who maybe
are in the trade.
Uh some people listening tothis will be people who are
maybe new, you know, or youknow, even parents at home.
I mean, we've we've talked inother episodes about the lack of
focus and attention on mentalhealth in our society, certainly
(31:20):
amongst in you know, within ourhealthcare system.
There's a there's I'd say lipservice paid to it here and
there.
Melissa (31:27):
Absolutely.
Evan (31:28):
Usually more on the pharmaceutical side of things.
Melissa (31:31):
Correct.
Evan (31:32):
How can we diagnose somebody so we can get them
drugs?
Absolutely.
As opposed to a focus on can wereally deal with the underlying
causes of of these conditionsthat we're having and maybe
break people out of some ofthese cycles.
Melissa (31:45):
We can't make people get help.
Evan (31:47):
Certainly, we can't make people get help.
But I also think that there's aI the more I I research, the
more I look, the more I watchand see what's going on.
I think there's maybe not asinister, but a a a more cynical
approach to this, and that'ssure.
Um it's a lot cheaper to fixsomebody's issues and deal with
the root causes.
Sure is uh over time than it isto to medicate and soothe those
(32:13):
those symptoms.
So, but my own skepticism andcynicism aside, what kind of
practical tools can a parentwith a child that's going
through this on a, you know,maybe a regular basis, or you
know, somebody who doesn't haveaccess to mental health
resources and but sees this inthemselves?
What what kind of practicaltools can they use to try to
(32:35):
break this cycle?
Melissa (32:36):
Sure.
Talking about it, let's stopignoring it.
And when you see your childstruggling or your child is
acting out, let's take a stepback and look at what's
underneath it.
Every behavior has a purpose.
And so when we have a kid who'sisolating or hiding, let's stop
(32:57):
and engage in conversation.
Let's pull them out of whateverit is that they're using to
hide.
If it's video games or theirphone or social media, whatever
it is, even it can be books.
Let's pull them out intoconnection and talk about things
that are going on and how wefeel about it and show them that
(33:20):
that can be safe, that we canconnect in safe ways.
A lot of the problem here iswe've got parents that are not
parenting.
We have parents that recognizeit's easier to let my kid be on
their phone or on devices orvideo games or off at all the
friends' houses, because then Idon't have to deal with them.
Evan (33:40):
Yeah.
And I and I think you have amuch easier time at that with
younger kids, right?
Because by the time they get tohigh school, which I think, if
we're honest, I think a lot ofparents put those mental health
blinders on until their kidsstart to really show the
symptoms, and they don't reallystart to show the symptoms until
about the time when they'regoing through all of their body
changes.
Melissa (33:59):
Right.
Evan (33:59):
Right.
And at that point, maybe thatmaybe that safe pathway feels
broken down, right?
Maybe the kid can't, doesn'twant, won't discuss it with your
with you as a parent.
What about things likegrounding, journaling,
reframing?
Melissa (34:16):
Well, I think what you just said was super important
because every kid doesn't wantto talk to their mom or dad
about it.
But every kid deserves to havea safe adult that they can talk
to.
That you know if there's somemajor issue that you need to
know about as the parent,they're gonna tell you.
That might be an aunt or anuncle, or it might be their best
(34:37):
friend's mom, it a coach or ateacher, whoever it is.
But every kid should havesomebody that they can go to
that feels safe.
And oftentimes that's not gonnabe us as parents, and that's
okay.
And we talk about journaling.
You know, one of the biggestreasons I hear kids don't
(35:00):
journal?
Evan (35:00):
What's that?
Melissa (35:01):
Because somebody's gonna read it.
Because somebody's gonna comeinto my room and find my journal
and they're gonna read it, andthen they're gonna know how I
feel, and then I'm gonna get introuble.
And that's that's hard.
Because how do we let kids havefeelings and recognize and
validate these feelings arereal?
As a parent, you may not agreewith them, you may not even
(35:23):
understand them.
But that doesn't change thefact that they're real to your
child and they come from a realplace.
So if that kid feels likesomebody's always mad at them,
that somebody doesn't love them,that you know they're the
target of things, and thenyou're seeing behavioral issues
(35:44):
come out of that kid, we can'tjust disregard the feelings.
Evan (35:48):
Do these tools actually work?
If you sit down and youjournal, does it actually work
or is it something thattherapists just tell you?
Melissa (35:54):
No, there's actual science behind it.
There's science that talksabout how we have two different
parts of our brain, our feelingbrain and a fact brain.
And when we write things out,it takes it from the feeling
state and it turns it into fact.
And once it's down on paper andfact, that's when we can look
(36:15):
at it from a neutral positionand say, wow, I'm really glad I
got that out.
And that might be a littleridiculous.
There might not be truth inthat, or I can cross things out
and mark things and take outthings that are feeling, and
(36:35):
then I'm left with just thefacts.
But we've got to get thefeelings out.
And if that's not to a trustedadult, if it's not to a best
friend, if it's not down onpaper, there are people who find
that song that they connectwith.
And then they just play thatsong over and over and over
again.
And it helps them processthrough their own feelings
(36:58):
easier.
It's through running or sportsor music, whatever it is.
We just have to be able todivide out what are the facts
here and what are my feelingsthat are a reflection of what's
happening in this moment.
Yeah.
Evan (37:16):
So how do things like cancel culture, social media,
even politics news, how doesthat make shame spirals worse?
Melissa (37:25):
Sure.
So, you know, I think ingeneral, social media is just
awful for our children.
And the influences from peoplewhere all you're seeing is a
fraction of their life.
It's the fraction that theywant you to see that's perfect
or the showy part.
Evan (37:46):
It's we've talked about this before.
It's a mask.
Melissa (37:49):
It's a mask.
And yet, especially kidsperceive it as reality.
And it's really not attainablebecause nobody has a perfect
life like that.
And so we're setting ourselvesup to be repeatedly disappointed
by our own unmet and oftenunrealistic expectations.
(38:09):
It's a comparison game.
It's nothing more than keepingup with the Joneses.
Evan (38:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you think shame is morecommon today than it has been in
the past because of socialmedia and the access to things?
And then, you know, also sortof dovetail on that.
When you're in a in a shamespiral and you maybe go on
social media and the wrong thingis said or the wrong comment is
posted by someone else, or youknow, maybe it doesn't even have
(38:37):
anything to do with you, butyou read it and you take offense
to it, does that just, youknow, magnify the spiral?
Melissa (38:43):
Sure.
I mean, shame spirals reallyare about self-destruction.
It's I already feel awful, andso why bother trying to get out?
I may as well just go deeper.
And what better place thansocial media where you're
surrounded by perfection?
If you want to self-destruct,it's a great place to do it.
And as a parent, I wouldstrongly encourage parents to
(39:08):
get rid of the social media,pull the kids off the phones,
off the devices, do it for amonth and see what changes in
your kid.
Because they do, they changedramatically when those
influences aren't there.
And you will see a reduction inthe depression, the anxiety,
the shame spiraling.
(39:29):
You'll see a reduction inbehaviors, you'll see a
reduction in everything.
Evan (39:34):
Yeah, I've that's a really interesting point.
And I want to, you know, bringa real practical example of
that.
And I've seen it now in acouple of different cases.
So my oldest.
And these are anecdotal,everybody.
It's not a I'm not suggestingthat this is a gold standard
double blind peer-reviewedstudy.
You know, this isn't this isn'tacetaminophiline in pregnancy.
Melissa (39:56):
Right.
Evan (39:57):
But uh just anecdotally, I've seen it in two different
people that have been a part ofmy life, and but it's the same
thing, right?
So my oldest son and and youroldest son have both been you
know big into video games.
And I noticed some issues withmy oldest son years ago before
(40:18):
he moved to Canada.
Don't go looking for him.
Melissa (40:21):
And addiction runs in both family histories.
Evan (40:25):
Yes, yes.
But at any rate, I I noticedthat he was spending a lot of
time on video games and thingslike that.
And I restricted his access tovideo games at one point, pulled
him out of, you know, all thetime that he was spending on the
Xbox, and he was a totallydifferent kid.
Yep.
Totally different kid.
Now, there was a period of timewhere, you know, the first, I
don't know, month, weeks,whatever.
(40:46):
It was awful.
It's the it's the it's thecoming out of addiction, right?
It's it's the withdrawalsymptoms that you go through.
Because it's an escape withpeople who are addicts.
Melissa (40:56):
It's an escape to avoid shame.
Evan (40:58):
Right.
And you pull them out of that,and there's a period of time
where you're going to deal withregressive behavior, but
eventually that breaks.
Melissa (41:06):
It sure does.
Evan (41:07):
And you see a change in with consistency.
With consistency, yes.
And I think we've seen this thesame thing in in your oldest as
well.
And it's it's very interestingwhen they dip their toe back in,
you see those old things comeback so quickly.
So quickly.
Melissa (41:25):
So quickly.
Evan (41:26):
And then you take it, you take it away again and you see
it just go.
Melissa (41:29):
It resolves so much faster, though.
Evan (41:32):
Right.
Yeah right.
You know, again, anecdotally,and to tie it to, you know, some
of of what's happening in theworld, and this is a little bit
off topic, but I'm I'm hosting,so I'm gonna You can go off
topic.
Melissa (41:45):
It's instant gratification and focus.
Evan (41:48):
If you look at, you know, the the it's really hard to talk
about it because it's justreally a a terrible situation.
But if you look at the theCharlie Kirk killer and you look
at the ICE detainee killer thatwas the anti-ICE guy who in in
Dallas who just just killedthree detainees because he shot
indiscriminately into an ICEfacility and hit the detainees
(42:09):
instead of the ice agents thathe was really trying to get.
But at any rate, when they lookat the histories of these
people that are involved inthese things, uh they're finding
more and more that they arespending thousands and thousands
and thousands of hours in thesevideo games, these shooter
video games.
Now, I'm a skeptic that videogames themselves are bad and
(42:31):
cause these kinds of situations.
I think, and maybe you'llagree, maybe you'll disagree as
a trauma therapist.
I think that people who have amore direct link to trauma in
their background probably aremore susceptible to these
things.
But I I feel like in somecases, take it in moderation,
these things can be fun.
When you live in that world,when you immerse yourself in
(42:53):
that world for thousands ofhours, then you know, an
addictive personality can veryeasily be sucked in and it can
make changes in you.
Melissa (43:03):
Much of any good thing is still unhealthy.
Evan (43:07):
Right.
You want to play video gamesfor uh you know an hour, balance
a little bit, that's fine.
Make sure you get outside, getyour vitamin D.
Melissa (43:15):
And they can't be your only coping skill.
They can be a great copingskill.
Sure.
But they can't be the only one.
Sure.
And when it causes isolationand exclusion of other things,
that's when it becomes addictiveand unhealthy.
Evan (43:35):
Yeah.
So you just you just said toomuch of a good thing, too much
of any good thing can bedestructive, right?
Melissa (43:41):
Absolutely.
Evan (43:42):
So can shame ever be useful?
Melissa (43:45):
So every feeling that we have serves a purpose.
So fear, for example, when onewould feel fear back how many
hundreds of years ago, it was Ifeel anxious or or I feel fear
because there's somethingwatching me.
And if something's watching me,it could be a tiger and it
(44:08):
might jump and kill me.
So it caused us to take action.
Anger tells us that there'ssomething that goes against who
we are that we might need toaddress.
So shame tells us that we'renot happy with a part of who we
are and we need to fix it.
Evan (44:28):
So fear is a preparatory reaction to a perceived threat.
Absolutely.
Right.
And shame is sort of the samething, right?
It's a threat to our psyche.
Melissa (44:37):
Sure.
It it's us being unhappy withsomething, and sh the shame is
the act of covering it upinstead of fixing it.
Evan (44:47):
Okay.
Okay.
I I would have I would havethought that shame would be your
inner psyche, and I tookpsychology 101, but I'm I'm
blanking on there's the id andall the other the ego, the super
ego, right?
Id, ego, super ego.
Melissa (45:01):
Yep.
Evan (45:02):
One of those is the self.
I think it's the id.
Melissa (45:04):
The id, I think, is the evil one.
Evan (45:06):
Ah, okay.
Well, whichever one.
Melissa (45:08):
It might be the ego.
I really don't know.
I wasn't a psych major.
Evan (45:11):
Right.
No, but you took the class'smaster's degree.
Melissa (45:16):
Long time ago.
And I don't practice Freudianstuff.
Fair enough.
Evan (45:21):
Fair enough.
But one of them is the self.
And I think that shame isbasically I've threatened myself
and who I see myself as.
Correct.
Right.
And so it is that naturalreaction the same way that fear
is a natural reaction to aperceived external threat.
Sure.
Right.
And it's it's the body's way ofsaying or the mind's way of
(45:44):
saying there's something wrongthat you need to resolve.
Melissa (45:47):
And even with fear, right?
We talk about our internalsmoke alarm is anxiety.
And some people are afraid ofeverything and they don't know
why.
And their smoke alarm is goingoff way too much.
So we have to look at thatbarometer and shift it.
Well, shame is no different.
(46:08):
Shame is a barometer.
So we feel shame over differentthings.
We're more sensitive to someperceived inadequacies than
others.
And the question becomes have Idealt with this perceived
inadequacy?
Have I navigated why it's thereand how it got there?
Because then I won't feel shameover it anymore.
(46:30):
I've shifted my barometer.
Evan (46:31):
Yeah.
All right, let's leave peoplewith something practical.
If someone's listening andthey're stuck in a shame spiral
right now, or you know, theyknow somebody who's stuck in a
shame spiral right now, or maybethey've seen it in the past and
they want to be prepared forthe future.
What's one thing they can dotoday to break out of it?
To, you know, keep in the backof their minds to remind
themselves.
If you're doing it, stop it andget some help.
Melissa (46:57):
Oh man.
So what can they do to get outof it?
Yeah.
Own it.
Just today.
To somebody, to yourself.
Own it.
Own that you have adestructive, maladaptive
response to something.
Because that's what it is.
It's a defense skill.
It's something is coming at meand I don't like it.
(47:19):
So I need to push people away.
Own it.
Evan (47:22):
How can people shift from I'm bad to I made a mistake?
Melissa (47:26):
They start by using their words and saying it.
The more we tell ourselves, themore we start to believe.
Innately, the vast majority ofpeople are both good and bad.
We all have good and bad insideof us.
And when we can acknowledgethat that's actually normal, I'm
not perfect.
You're not perfect.
I don't know anybody that wasperfect except Jesus.
(47:49):
And I didn't really know himpersonally, you know, when he
was alive.
But we're none of us areperfect.
And we all have things thatwe've done.
We all have a history.
We we all have things that wecouldn't control about our
upbringing that caused shame andmessages that were received
(48:10):
that also aren't our fault.
Some of us have been insituations where somebody else
has placed that shame upon usand we just need to recognize
that it was never ours to carry.
It was always theirs.
But we have to recognize itfirst and then actually dig in
and do the work of dealing withit.
Instead of believing that youcan control it or you're not
(48:33):
gonna do it anymore, or thatyou're just some superhero.
We all need help.
Evan (48:39):
Sounds like own it, say it, do it.
Melissa (48:41):
Very much so.
Because when you know better,you do better.
Know better, do better.
Evan (48:46):
Keeps coming back.
Sure does.
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Have you ever replayed a mistake in your head so many times that it starts to feel like it defines you? Maybe it was something you said, a failure at work, a relationship gone wrong — and instead of moving past it, you sink deeper and deeper into that pit of self-blame. That’s what we call a shame spiral. It’s not just feeling guilty about something you did; it’s feeling like who you are is broken or unworthy. Andwhen you're in it, it can feel
endless.
On today's episode, Melissa andI are digging into the reality
of shame spiraling, why ithappens, how it takes hold of
us, and most importantly, how wecan stop it before it consumes
us.
And we're going to talk aboutwhere shame comes from, the role
culture and relationships play,and what it takes to break free
from that cycle.
If you've ever felt trapped inyour own head, this one's for
(00:20):
you.
Before we go too far, let'sstart at the beginning.
When we say shame spiral, whatexactly are we talking about?
Melissa (00:26):
Well, it looks different for different people.
I think about, you know, everyone of us has done it, right?
I left an abusive marriage.
And there was definitely ashame spiral after that.
A spiral of, I'm the problem.
And why am I not good enoughfor other people?
(00:47):
Why am I not good enough to betreated better?
I'm never going to be treatedwell.
So I may as well just sit alonefor the rest of my life.
I think about shame spiralsthat people go through after
some kind of, you know, crime iscommitted against them.
Whether it's an assault or aburglary of did I somehow cause
(01:12):
this?
Or thinking about the kids andthey're called out on something
and instantly they're angry anddefensive and then blow up and
sink into a pit of depression.
Evan (01:28):
How's that different from guilt or embarrassment?
I mean, everybody getsconvicted at times and they feel
guilty.
They feel embarrassed.
They might lash out in asimilar way.
How is shame spiralingdifferent?
Melissa (01:39):
Sure.
If we feel guilty aboutsomething, first of all, guilt
is I know that I did somethingwrong.
And I can see that.
And I have this feeling insideof me that I just didn't didn't
do what I was supposed to.
Shame, on the other hand, is Ihave this expectation and my
(02:03):
performance didn't meet myexpectation.
So it's not necessarily that Idid something morally wrong.
It's that my reality versusexpectation just didn't match.
So when we talk about this,it's the the guilt side, it's
almost more of the fact side.
(02:23):
It's provable.
I took something from somebody,and now I feel guilty because I
know I took something andthey're gonna find out.
And I feel guilty about itbecause I did wrong.
Shame is more perception.
Shame is I perceive thatsomething is my fault when it
(02:43):
might not be, or I perceive thatsomebody is blaming me for
something, but maybe theyaren't, or maybe they are and
it's unjustified.
Evan (02:52):
And what's a shame spiral actually feel like?
So we talked about feelings.
What does a shame spiral feellike?
Feels like to me, maybe guiltor embarrassment is a short-term
thing.
What's a shame spiral feellike?
Melissa (03:05):
Well, I think with guilt, it's easier to resolve
it.
You know, I can go and say, I'msorry for what I did, I can
make it right.
Shame is a very internalprocess of those demons that you
fight within yourself.
And really, guilt, that'sthat's the cusp of it.
Guilt is an external, shame isan internal process.
(03:28):
So when I'm shame spiraling,I'm really fighting with myself.
And I'm fighting my ownthoughts and my own feelings of
inadequacy, whether they'reaccurate or not.
Evan (03:42):
Why why is it so much more consuming than other emotions?
Melissa (03:46):
Because it has to do with self.
I have to forgive myselfinstead of relying.
You and I, outside of here,have talked a lot about external
validation and why some peopleneed to have external validation
of thoughts, ideas, identity,whatever it is.
(04:06):
And why is that externalvalidation so important?
Well, because it's not your ownhead.
Whereas with a shame spiral,I'm fighting the voices in my
own head and need my own head totell me that it's okay.
Evan (04:19):
For those people that need that external validation, does
that typically come from someonewho has such a low self-esteem
or a low opinion of oneselfinternally that they seek the
external validation to replacetheir own internal negativity
about themselves?
Melissa (04:36):
Well, yes.
And I think it's more importantto look at where that internal
negativity come from.
And so a lot of it oftentimescomes from trauma.
It can also come from subtlemessages that we were given
throughout our life.
Those messages that your voicedoesn't matter, your ideas don't
(04:56):
matter, you're not as good asother people around you.
Even the parent who constantlysteps in when their kid has a
little bit of a hard time, theyjump in, they're like, I can do
this for you.
Breeds a sense of incompetencein kids.
And now, why am I gonna bothertrying if I'm just not gonna be
(05:16):
able to do it?
Somebody else can do it better.
And so then when we fail, thatself-talk can come out of, well,
this is just who I am.
It's very internalized into whoI am as a human, not just an
act.
Guilt is an act that I didwrong.
Shame is who I am.
Evan (05:34):
You've transitioned perfectly into a uh the next
topic that I was gonna askabout, which is the roots of
shame.
Seems like it's it's rooted inyour childhood and trauma.
Experience.
In in you know, culturalexpectations, you know,
expectations that you'vereceived from your, you know,
religious background or familydynamics.
(05:57):
Are those really the commonsort of roots of where shame
comes from?
Melissa (06:02):
They sure are.
I mean, what are some thingsthat you've felt shame over?
Evan (06:06):
Sometimes the way the way I've prepared the kids for life
at times.
So that's the way I've the wayI've responded or acted in
certain situations.
Melissa (06:14):
So where did you learn those things?
Evan (06:16):
Yeah, some of it is is my own childhood, some of it is,
you know, cultural expectationsand looking around and seeing
how other parents are parentingtheir kids or how other kids
are, you know, supposedly beingprepared for the world.
I guess in some ways, you haveto give yourself a little grace
because not everything is whatit appears to be.
Very true.
Melissa (06:36):
Well, we only know what we know, right?
Right.
Know better, do better.
So when we don't realize howthings like our words.
Words have a lot of value.
Remember the old phrase, sticksand stones may break my bones,
but words will never hurt me.
I mean, how much further fromthe truth can we actually get?
Evan (06:56):
So so true.
I just did a an equalizerseries episode on speech and the
power of it.
And you know, I went back tothe sort of roots of speech, and
I really tied speech back tocreation.
So if you read the Bible, ifyou're a Bible believer, and if
you're not, check out your checkout your favorite text, you
know, religious text.
(07:17):
It's in all of them, really.
But the beginnings of theworld, especially in biblical
Christianity, God said, Letthere be light.
And if you read throughGenesis, the the opening chapter
of Genesis, you'll see thateverything that was created on
the earth and around the earth,the heavens and everything
around it, everything wascreated through speech.
God said, Do this.
(07:39):
God said this.
God said, Let there be man, andhe created man.
Melissa (07:43):
He speaks everything into creation.
Evan (07:46):
And we know from the Bible that we are created in God's
image.
And so if we extrapolate thatout, we have many, if not all,
of the same powers that God has.
So our speech can breathe life.
And in fact, the Bible tells usthat our speech is both life
and death.
And we know that the importanceof speech, even from Jesus, is
(08:09):
critical.
We know from the Bible thatJesus said every idle and
careless word that we speak willbe judged in heaven.
And so speech is a huge, hugecomponent of every portion of
our life.
It can unite, it can divide, itcan break down walls, and it
can build them up.
Melissa (08:26):
Have you ever heard about, you know, whatever's in
your heart is what comes outyour mouth?
Have you heard it?
Evan (08:32):
Yeah, I've heard it.
I don't know that I completelyagree with it, but I've heard
it.
I think that people can saythings sometimes that don't they
don't necessarily mean orbelieve or at least have
conviction behind.
They just say things.
It comes from somewhere.
It certainly does.
And I think, I think, again,when we go back to speech, you
(08:52):
know, God's not the only onethat used speech.
Right.
The serpent tempted Eve withthe apple and with speech.
And so that's just more proofthat it can build up, it can
tear down, it can be used forgood, it can be used for better.
But it all comes from insidefor good purposes.
Melissa (09:08):
It it you're right.
And it it all comes from thatplace inside of feelings.
Evan (09:13):
Sure.
Melissa (09:14):
And if I'm feeling frustrated, I might snap and say
something that I don't reallymean, but I still said it.
It's still words that came frommy heart, and I didn't filter
it, and out it came.
Whether it's valid in themoment, because if we really
look at our feelings, feelingsare a snapshot of a moment as
(09:38):
part of an experience in time.
And, you know, I could feelsomething or feel away about
something right now, and in fiveminutes, I could feel
completely differently about it.
I don't know how men work, it'sdefinitely how women work.
So I think about that.
And really, we don't considerhow those words impact the other
(10:01):
humans around us.
And when a kid is told this isthis is a good example.
You are bad versus the choiceyou made was bad.
Or, you know, you areincompetent versus your
performance was subpar.
(10:22):
When we attach the person tothat trait, it internalizes and
it it soaks deep into our souland it becomes part of who we
are.
So for years and years andyears, I was given messages that
I wasn't good enough, thatnobody else would want me, that
(10:42):
nobody would want to, you know,help raise my children, that I
was never gonna find somebodybetter because this person knew
me inside and out.
Well, those messages all sunkin.
And those were all things thatI struggled with shame over.
Feeling inadequate, feelingunworthy, feeling just like I,
(11:06):
who I was, would never be enoughfor anybody.
And those were messages that mykids received.
So those are all areas that wehave to work through.
Otherwise, we will foreverstruggle with shame.
Evan (11:18):
Are some people more prone to shame spirals than others?
Melissa (11:22):
That I'm sure that that has a lot to do with how we
rebound, with how resilient weare.
And I mean, definitelyresiliency.
I have seen people go throughmore than I think I could ever
bear.
And yet they're on the otherside.
It didn't break them.
But resiliency, again, is veryinternal.
(11:43):
And our ability to managedistress is something that we're
taught.
Are we sitting in things?
Are we sitting in thosefeelings knowing that we have
somebody supporting us?
Do we feel emotionally safe inour relationships?
Do we feel like we can go tosomebody and say, hey, I'm
struggling with this?
(12:04):
And that they're gonna say, Howcan I help?
Is there anything that I cando?
Is there is there anything I'mdoing that's not helping?
And I think most people don'thave relationships like that.
Eve with with parents, withspouses, with friends, where
they can just say, This is whereI'm at, and and realize they
(12:26):
won't be judged for it.
Evan (12:28):
What kind of situations tend to trigger these shame
spirals in in everyday life?
Is it sort of r randomizedbased on the individual and
their distress tolerance?
Is it is there something that'smore likely to cause it than
others and in the majority ofpeople?
What can lead to this on a on ayou know not day-to-day basis,
(12:49):
but on an everyday sort of youknow occurrence?
Melissa (12:52):
Way to ask a hard one.
Because it really isindividualized.
You know, what may have causedme to sink into shame years ago
doesn't impact me anymorebecause of the work that I've
done on myself internally.
And we look at younger people,and what might cause a shame
(13:13):
spiral for one might be a bullyat school that says you're ugly,
and then they they spin andspiral.
And what that really means isthey stop functioning, they sink
into a world where they don'thave to deal with the parts of
themselves that they don't like.
(13:35):
Instead of grabbing hold, andthis is where we as parents
really need to help our kids torecognize that this is what's
happening and to bring it intothe light and talk about it.
Because just as much assomebody's words have harmed
that child or that partner orfriend or whoever, words heal
(13:55):
it.
And so often I sit in a therapyroom and tell people what you
tell yourself is what becomestrue.
So if you continue to tellyourself, wow, I'm awful, I
don't deserve good things.
The world is miserable andnegative.
And the more you tell yourselfthose things, the truer it
(14:18):
becomes.
And on the opposite of that is,even if you don't feel it in
the beginning, hey, I do deserveto be loved.
I do deserve to havepartnership, I do deserve to be
treated with respect or kindnessor understanding.
Then that is what you breedoutside of that therapy room.
Evan (14:42):
Can you walk us through what's happening in the brain
and the body when someone getsstuck in a shame spiral?
Sure.
Nervous system.
Melissa (14:51):
Everything is about our nervous system.
And when we recognize that thenervous system's job is to keep
us safe, that's it.
So when we start, hopefully westart out in this ventral space
that is safety.
It's the ability to play, it'ssocial engagement, it's eye
contact and connection andgenerally feeling safe, but
(15:15):
having this level of neuroawareness.
What else is in my vicinitythat might be a threat?
And then as this threat comesin, that's when parts of our
fight or flight system or thesympathetic nervous system start
to come online.
We start to move, we start toshift, we start to adapt.
And then at some point, thethreat becomes so great, so so
(15:38):
imminent here that our factbrain, our sense of safety goes
offline.
And now we're in pure fight orflight mode.
Now I'm full of energy.
I'm either running or I'mattacking, or maybe I'm just
really excited becausesomething's happening.
(15:59):
In the case of shame, this iswhen somebody is defensive.
They're yelling at you, they'retrying to convince you that
what they did wasn't wrong or itwasn't their fault or it's
somebody else's.
They're trying to takewhatever's coming at them and
displace it.
And the moment they realizethey can't do that, that's when
(16:19):
fight or flight goes offline.
And now we have sunken into thepit of the dorsal nervous
system.
And that's a turtle shell.
I don't like the realityoutside.
And really, what this is, it'sthe most primitive part of our
nervous system, the part thatplays dead, the part that goes
(16:40):
underwater and slows down itsbreathing and slows down just
oxygen consumption and how ourbody's processing something.
And we disappear.
So we just can't see what's outthere.
And then we sit there until wefeel like the world is safe
again.
The problem is if we want toget back up to safety, we still
(17:03):
have to come back up and throughthe fight or flight and the
feelings and the discomfort.
And that's where people getstuck.
Evan (17:12):
Is that why shame tends to feed on itself and it gets
worse instead of fading becauseyou kind of get stuck at the
bottom and not wanting to, orbeing able maybe to transition
back through that fight orflight?
Melissa (17:25):
Absolutely.
And even deeper into that,there's a part of us that can
get stuck down there.
So if I'm five years old when Ifeel shame because, you know, I
didn't do something that I wassupposed to do, if I don't
resolve that and go back upthrough it in a successful way,
(17:47):
that little five-year-old partof me gets stuck down there.
So I physically move forward.
I'm physically carrying on withmy life.
But this emotionalfive-year-old that got hurt is
captured down there holding thiswound.
And then every time somethingtriggers that experience, here's
my five-year-old part comingright back out again.
(18:09):
And that's where we have to dothe work of finding those root
causes of things and recognizingwhat part of me is this that's
reacting in this way?
And then we have to revisit itand disconnect and finish
resolving what caused the shameon an emotional level in order
(18:30):
to move forward.
This is why we see so manyemotionally stunted adults
walking around.
Evan (18:35):
Yeah.
Is there such a thing as shameabout shame or being embarrassed
about even feeling shame?
Do you do you see that in inclients?
Melissa (18:44):
Or sure.
I mean, we all get embarrassedwhen we recognize that something
that we're doing is unhealthy.
And human nature is to try tohide it.
This is why this is why whenyou see your four-year-old with
chocolate all over their faceafter you told them they
(19:04):
couldn't have the chocolate chipcookie before dinner, and then
they snuck into the cookie jarand took it and ate it and
thought that they were gettingone over on you.
That's why you say, Hey, didyou have the cookie?
They lie to you because theyknow that they did something
wrong.
They don't want you to findout, they don't want to be in
trouble.
They're embarrassed that nowyou're like, hey, but there's
chocolate on your face.
(19:25):
And that's when shame can sinkin.
If we go at that child overtheir actions instead of looking
at the moral construct of it.
Evan (19:40):
And is that kind of the spiral effect where you go
through all of the emotionalaspects, you go through all the
ways that the brain and the bodyreact to these kinds of
situations, and then you know,you start to feel bad about ever
having felt bad, and then itjust cycles back to I'm
terrible, I'm terrible, I'mterrible because I feel bad
(20:02):
about feeling bad.
Melissa (20:04):
It certainly can.
And, you know, on the positiveside of that, it does require
that someone has some type ofmoral compass because your
people that have no moralcompass won't even feel bad
about it.
Evan (20:16):
Yeah, your narcissists or what's the other one?
BPD.
Melissa (20:20):
Borderlines.
Evan (20:21):
Borderlines.
They don't realize thosenegative things.
They don't see it as negativesbecause they don't care.
Is that what it comes down to?
Melissa (20:30):
Sort of, but also not.
So they can feel shame overfeeling like they disappointed
themselves, but don't recognizeharm to others.
So they won't feel shamebecause they screamed and yelled
at you.
They will feel shame if they goout and get drunk because of
(20:56):
all of the emotions.
They might feel shame for doingsomething that they didn't want
to do, but it's not somethingthat they did to you.
Does that make sense?
Evan (21:04):
Kind of.
I I mean, I would say notreally, because I'm neither a
therapist who's been schooled inthis, or a narcissist or, you
know, sociopath or whatever.
Right.
I don't I don't fullyunderstand how one can have no
remorse for how another personfeels.
I can conceptually understandit.
(21:26):
I mean, we've we've seen enoughof those things in the world,
and there's been, you know,horrible people throughout
history, Hitlers and Mao andStalins of the world who have
done terrible things and youknow killed millions of people
and had no remorse over it, orat least it doesn't appear that
there was ever any remorse overit.
So you know those kinds ofthings exist.
You know, either serial killersthat have killed and just you
(21:48):
know almost indiscriminately, ormaybe they've they've had their
predilections as to who they'retrying to kill, but they're
still able to take lives and notappear to feel remorse for it.
Melissa (21:57):
Even abusers chronically repeat the same
behaviors, and it will always bethe other person's fault.
Evan (22:04):
Right.
Melissa (22:05):
It's never theirs.
Evan (22:06):
Right.
So you know those things exist,but for me to be able to
empathize enough to put myselfin that position, I no, you
can't.
I can't.
I don't really understand it.
Yeah.
But I I understand the concept.
Melissa (22:19):
Well, and again, it's it is this broader concept that
when trauma happens, if I put upwalls to keep me safe and tuck
into my turtle shell where I'mthe good one in the center and
the world is bad and it's out toget me, then of course
everything is everybody else'sfault.
And I'm just doing what I needto keep myself safe.
(22:41):
Everybody else is the problem.
But if I have trauma andsomehow keep myself open to
everybody else in the worldmatters, and if I can just keep
the peace out there, then I'llbe safe.
That makes me a small part ofsomething that's spinning around
(23:05):
a greater object or entity oryou know, god in that, in that
sense.
Evan (23:11):
Give us the playbook here.
What are the first steps to hitpause on a shame spiral?
Melissa (23:15):
So I think the hard part about a shame spiral is the
person spiraling.
And no matter what somebodyelse does, that person is gonna
sit in it until they are readyto come out.
And that can be really hard forthe people around them to
recognize that this is going onand also to recognize that
(23:38):
there's nothing they can do.
So, in order for somebody tocome out of it, they really do
have to recognize that they'rein it.
Evan (23:46):
What's the first step when you finally do recognize that
you're in a shame spiral?
Melissa (23:50):
Well, it's that that dorsal turtle shell.
And I think that when peoplecome out of it, they want to
pretend like it didn't happen.
They want to pretend thateverything is normal and let's
just move on.
And that tends to be one of thebiggest problems that they'll
(24:11):
have to face.
Because while they have been intheir little turtle shell,
they've been causing destructionaround them.
And often that's destruction torelationships.
Because when you're spiraling,you're either externalizing and
yelling at people and slammingdoors and telling everybody to
(24:32):
go away, or sometimes you'redoing both, but you're
internalizing and disappearingand pushing people away and
having to deal with everythingon your own.
And so while you're now readyto come out of the turtle shell,
these people don't realize theymay have gotten over something,
but the other people aroundthem maybe haven't.
Evan (24:53):
Yeah.
So is the first step makingamends?
Is it, you know, continuing toshow your self, self-compassion?
What's the what's the playhere?
Melissa (25:03):
Well, I mean, I think acknowledging it is probably the
first step.
Acknowledging it to yourselfand acknowledging it to the
people around you who may bethinking you're mad at them.
They did something wrong.
They're left feeling unloved,not valued.
Sometimes they're just feelinglost and insecure in
(25:25):
relationship with you, and maybeeven afraid of getting backlash
or hurt.
So being able to go to peopleand say, you know, I'm I'm
really sorry that I did this.
I recognize why I did it.
And it's something that I'mgonna try to work on.
And then actually taking thetime to become more aware of
(25:48):
your own signs and symptoms, andmaybe being vulnerable enough
to ask the people around you tolook for those signs and try to
point them out next time.
Evan (25:58):
Sounds a little bit like a 12-step program here.
Melissa (26:03):
Yeah.
Do you do you know more of thesteps?
Evan (26:07):
Well, let's see.
The first one is admitting wehave a problem.
Melissa (26:11):
Right.
Evan (26:11):
Right?
Melissa (26:12):
Mm-hmm.
Evan (26:13):
And that you're powerless over it.
You're powerless over it.
What else?
Melissa (26:17):
I know making amends is definitely in there.
Evan (26:19):
Making amends is on there for sure.
Yep.
Taking a moral inventory ofourselves.
Melissa (26:25):
That would be a good one.
Evan (26:26):
Usually your Alcoholics Anonymous and stuff like that
have a lot of faith-based thingsin it.
So there's steps in there thatI don't think will apply to
every person listening to this.
But if you are faith-based, Ithink probably recognizing that
there's a a higher power andthat you have value in that
higher power's eyes, or youwouldn't have been created in
(26:47):
the first place.
Melissa (26:47):
Right.
Evan (26:48):
Probably plays a role here.
But all of that being said, howdo things like, you know,
you've talked aboutrelationships.
How does safe relationships andvulnerability help pull someone
out?
Or does it?
Does it help pull someone out?
Can can I mean obviouslythere's people that can just
take advantage of those kinds ofsituations and, you know, never
(27:08):
really change, but justcontinuously spiral and then
come out of it and say, well,it's okay because we have such a
safe relationship.
Melissa (27:16):
Right.
And and really what'sinteresting about this is you've
got the spiraler and thenyou've got the other person.
And the spiraler is really onlylooking at their own pain.
They're looking at what theyare internally struggling with
and are failing to recognizewhat they're then putting on
(27:37):
everybody else around them.
Yeah.
And that really is the hardpart because everybody else
doesn't know what arbitrarycriteria this person is using to
go in and out of shame.
They don't feel like it isemotionally safe anymore because
they could say one thing and itcauses somebody to go deeper in
(27:58):
a spiral.
Or they don't say something andthey don't engage and it causes
somebody to go deeper into aspiral.
And you never know moment tomoment whether you should say
something or you shouldn't saysomething because it's never the
same.
So I think it's important torecognize that this isn't all
just about the person spiraling.
This is also about the otherpeople around them who now have
(28:19):
to figure out how to get overthings too.
And sometimes this causesresentment in relationships.
It causes underlying fears.
It causes a disconnect.
And that's an emotionaldisconnect.
And it takes more to reconnectthan it does to disconnect.
Evan (28:40):
Yeah.
Especially tough with, Iimagine, children and people who
are underdeveloped emotionally,right?
It's probably a lot easier forsomeone like you who has done
the work and who understands allof what is going on with this
than it would be for what Iwould consider a lay person,
right?
A regular Joe, an average guy,average gal.
(29:00):
It's probably a lot tougher forthem to recognize what this is
and to accept that the person onthe other end of this is going
through this thing, and so it'sit's impacted them in a way
that's that's disconnected them.
You know, to to your point,right, we've all we always talk
about you don't want tonecessarily tell the child that
(29:21):
the child is bad, right?
But that action or thatdecision was wrong.
And I I think in the same way,you know, if you're someone who
is with someone who's goingthrough those things, it might
be easier for you to deal withit or somebody like you to deal
with it than it is for somebodywho I'm still human.
Melissa (29:40):
And that's the thing.
Even us as therapists, we'rewe're therapists all day, but
we're not a therapist toourself, and we can't be a
therapist to our kids.
And really, what we're talkingabout at the end of the day is
attachment.
We're talking about kids whoare struggling to form healthy
attachments.
Attachments to people.
(30:00):
We're talking about emotionalintelligence and emotional
growth and well-being oremotional immaturity.
And the more emotionally maturewe are, that's really why we
handle it better.
Yeah.
It's those parts of ourselfthat are stuck.
And it's that five-year-oldpart that comes out and says,
(30:21):
Why won't you connect with me?
This isn't fair.
And yet we're saying that toanother part that's really stuck
and little and doesn't reallycare about how other people feel
about it.
Evan (30:33):
Yeah.
So what kind of practical toolscan someone who recognizes that
they're in the shame spiral ormaybe a pa we were talking
earlier at lunch about how, youknow, th this podcast is is, I
think, targeted at people whohave some level of empathy or
understanding for the mentalhealth conditions and the and
(30:56):
and just mental health as awhole.
Melissa (30:58):
Self-reflection.
Evan (30:59):
Self-reflection, all of those things, right?
But some people listening tothis will be people who maybe
are in the trade.
Uh some people listening tothis will be people who are
maybe new, you know, or youknow, even parents at home.
I mean, we've we've talked inother episodes about the lack of
focus and attention on mentalhealth in our society, certainly
(31:20):
amongst in you know, within ourhealthcare system.
There's a there's I'd say lipservice paid to it here and
there.
Melissa (31:27):
Absolutely.
Evan (31:28):
Usually more on the pharmaceutical side of things.
Melissa (31:31):
Correct.
Evan (31:32):
How can we diagnose somebody so we can get them
drugs?
Absolutely.
As opposed to a focus on can wereally deal with the underlying
causes of of these conditionsthat we're having and maybe
break people out of some ofthese cycles.
Melissa (31:45):
We can't make people get help.
Evan (31:47):
Certainly, we can't make people get help.
But I also think that there's aI the more I I research, the
more I look, the more I watchand see what's going on.
I think there's maybe not asinister, but a a a more cynical
approach to this, and that'ssure.
Um it's a lot cheaper to fixsomebody's issues and deal with
the root causes.
Sure is uh over time than it isto to medicate and soothe those
(32:13):
those symptoms.
So, but my own skepticism andcynicism aside, what kind of
practical tools can a parentwith a child that's going
through this on a, you know,maybe a regular basis, or you
know, somebody who doesn't haveaccess to mental health
resources and but sees this inthemselves?
What what kind of practicaltools can they use to try to
(32:35):
break this cycle?
Melissa (32:36):
Sure.
Talking about it, let's stopignoring it.
And when you see your childstruggling or your child is
acting out, let's take a stepback and look at what's
underneath it.
Every behavior has a purpose.
And so when we have a kid who'sisolating or hiding, let's stop
(32:57):
and engage in conversation.
Let's pull them out of whateverit is that they're using to
hide.
If it's video games or theirphone or social media, whatever
it is, even it can be books.
Let's pull them out intoconnection and talk about things
that are going on and how wefeel about it and show them that
(33:20):
that can be safe, that we canconnect in safe ways.
A lot of the problem here iswe've got parents that are not
parenting.
We have parents that recognizeit's easier to let my kid be on
their phone or on devices orvideo games or off at all the
friends' houses, because then Idon't have to deal with them.
Evan (33:40):
Yeah.
And I and I think you have amuch easier time at that with
younger kids, right?
Because by the time they get tohigh school, which I think, if
we're honest, I think a lot ofparents put those mental health
blinders on until their kidsstart to really show the
symptoms, and they don't reallystart to show the symptoms until
about the time when they'regoing through all of their body
changes.
Melissa (33:59):
Right.
Evan (33:59):
Right.
And at that point, maybe thatmaybe that safe pathway feels
broken down, right?
Maybe the kid can't, doesn'twant, won't discuss it with your
with you as a parent.
What about things likegrounding, journaling,
reframing?
Melissa (34:16):
Well, I think what you just said was super important
because every kid doesn't wantto talk to their mom or dad
about it.
But every kid deserves to havea safe adult that they can talk
to.
That you know if there's somemajor issue that you need to
know about as the parent,they're gonna tell you.
That might be an aunt or anuncle, or it might be their best
(34:37):
friend's mom, it a coach or ateacher, whoever it is.
But every kid should havesomebody that they can go to
that feels safe.
And oftentimes that's not gonnabe us as parents, and that's
okay.
And we talk about journaling.
You know, one of the biggestreasons I hear kids don't
(35:00):
journal?
Evan (35:00):
What's that?
Melissa (35:01):
Because somebody's gonna read it.
Because somebody's gonna comeinto my room and find my journal
and they're gonna read it, andthen they're gonna know how I
feel, and then I'm gonna get introuble.
And that's that's hard.
Because how do we let kids havefeelings and recognize and
validate these feelings arereal?
As a parent, you may not agreewith them, you may not even
(35:23):
understand them.
But that doesn't change thefact that they're real to your
child and they come from a realplace.
So if that kid feels likesomebody's always mad at them,
that somebody doesn't love them,that you know they're the
target of things, and thenyou're seeing behavioral issues
(35:44):
come out of that kid, we can'tjust disregard the feelings.
Evan (35:48):
Do these tools actually work?
If you sit down and youjournal, does it actually work
or is it something thattherapists just tell you?
Melissa (35:54):
No, there's actual science behind it.
There's science that talksabout how we have two different
parts of our brain, our feelingbrain and a fact brain.
And when we write things out,it takes it from the feeling
state and it turns it into fact.
And once it's down on paper andfact, that's when we can look
(36:15):
at it from a neutral positionand say, wow, I'm really glad I
got that out.
And that might be a littleridiculous.
There might not be truth inthat, or I can cross things out
and mark things and take outthings that are feeling, and
(36:35):
then I'm left with just thefacts.
But we've got to get thefeelings out.
And if that's not to a trustedadult, if it's not to a best
friend, if it's not down onpaper, there are people who find
that song that they connectwith.
And then they just play thatsong over and over and over
again.
And it helps them processthrough their own feelings
(36:58):
easier.
It's through running or sportsor music, whatever it is.
We just have to be able todivide out what are the facts
here and what are my feelingsthat are a reflection of what's
happening in this moment.
Yeah.
Evan (37:16):
So how do things like cancel culture, social media,
even politics news, how doesthat make shame spirals worse?
Melissa (37:25):
Sure.
So, you know, I think ingeneral, social media is just
awful for our children.
And the influences from peoplewhere all you're seeing is a
fraction of their life.
It's the fraction that theywant you to see that's perfect
or the showy part.
Evan (37:46):
It's we've talked about this before.
It's a mask.
Melissa (37:49):
It's a mask.
And yet, especially kidsperceive it as reality.
And it's really not attainablebecause nobody has a perfect
life like that.
And so we're setting ourselvesup to be repeatedly disappointed
by our own unmet and oftenunrealistic expectations.
(38:09):
It's a comparison game.
It's nothing more than keepingup with the Joneses.
Evan (38:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you think shame is morecommon today than it has been in
the past because of socialmedia and the access to things?
And then, you know, also sortof dovetail on that.
When you're in a in a shamespiral and you maybe go on
social media and the wrong thingis said or the wrong comment is
posted by someone else, or youknow, maybe it doesn't even have
(38:37):
anything to do with you, butyou read it and you take offense
to it, does that just, youknow, magnify the spiral?
Melissa (38:43):
Sure.
I mean, shame spirals reallyare about self-destruction.
It's I already feel awful, andso why bother trying to get out?
I may as well just go deeper.
And what better place thansocial media where you're
surrounded by perfection?
If you want to self-destruct,it's a great place to do it.
And as a parent, I wouldstrongly encourage parents to
(39:08):
get rid of the social media,pull the kids off the phones,
off the devices, do it for amonth and see what changes in
your kid.
Because they do, they changedramatically when those
influences aren't there.
And you will see a reduction inthe depression, the anxiety,
the shame spiraling.
(39:29):
You'll see a reduction inbehaviors, you'll see a
reduction in everything.
Evan (39:34):
Yeah, I've that's a really interesting point.
And I want to, you know, bringa real practical example of
that.
And I've seen it now in acouple of different cases.
So my oldest.
And these are anecdotal,everybody.
It's not a I'm not suggestingthat this is a gold standard
double blind peer-reviewedstudy.
You know, this isn't this isn'tacetaminophiline in pregnancy.
Melissa (39:56):
Right.
Evan (39:57):
But uh just anecdotally, I've seen it in two different
people that have been a part ofmy life, and but it's the same
thing, right?
So my oldest son and and youroldest son have both been you
know big into video games.
And I noticed some issues withmy oldest son years ago before
(40:18):
he moved to Canada.
Don't go looking for him.
Melissa (40:21):
And addiction runs in both family histories.
Evan (40:25):
Yes, yes.
But at any rate, I I noticedthat he was spending a lot of
time on video games and thingslike that.
And I restricted his access tovideo games at one point, pulled
him out of, you know, all thetime that he was spending on the
Xbox, and he was a totallydifferent kid.
Yep.
Totally different kid.
Now, there was a period of timewhere, you know, the first, I
don't know, month, weeks,whatever.
(40:46):
It was awful.
It's the it's the it's thecoming out of addiction, right?
It's it's the withdrawalsymptoms that you go through.
Because it's an escape withpeople who are addicts.
Melissa (40:56):
It's an escape to avoid shame.
Evan (40:58):
Right.
And you pull them out of that,and there's a period of time
where you're going to deal withregressive behavior, but
eventually that breaks.
Melissa (41:06):
It sure does.
Evan (41:07):
And you see a change in with consistency.
With consistency, yes.
And I think we've seen this thesame thing in in your oldest as
well.
And it's it's very interestingwhen they dip their toe back in,
you see those old things comeback so quickly.
So quickly.
Melissa (41:25):
So quickly.
Evan (41:26):
And then you take it, you take it away again and you see
it just go.
Melissa (41:29):
It resolves so much faster, though.
Evan (41:32):
Right.
Yeah right.
You know, again, anecdotally,and to tie it to, you know, some
of of what's happening in theworld, and this is a little bit
off topic, but I'm I'm hosting,so I'm gonna You can go off
topic.
Melissa (41:45):
It's instant gratification and focus.
Evan (41:48):
If you look at, you know, the the it's really hard to talk
about it because it's justreally a a terrible situation.
But if you look at the theCharlie Kirk killer and you look
at the ICE detainee killer thatwas the anti-ICE guy who in in
Dallas who just just killedthree detainees because he shot
indiscriminately into an ICEfacility and hit the detainees
(42:09):
instead of the ice agents thathe was really trying to get.
But at any rate, when they lookat the histories of these
people that are involved inthese things, uh they're finding
more and more that they arespending thousands and thousands
and thousands of hours in thesevideo games, these shooter
video games.
Now, I'm a skeptic that videogames themselves are bad and
(42:31):
cause these kinds of situations.
I think, and maybe you'llagree, maybe you'll disagree as
a trauma therapist.
I think that people who have amore direct link to trauma in
their background probably aremore susceptible to these
things.
But I I feel like in somecases, take it in moderation,
these things can be fun.
When you live in that world,when you immerse yourself in
(42:53):
that world for thousands ofhours, then you know, an
addictive personality can veryeasily be sucked in and it can
make changes in you.
Melissa (43:03):
Much of any good thing is still unhealthy.
Evan (43:07):
Right.
You want to play video gamesfor uh you know an hour, balance
a little bit, that's fine.
Make sure you get outside, getyour vitamin D.
Melissa (43:15):
And they can't be your only coping skill.
They can be a great copingskill.
Sure.
But they can't be the only one.
Sure.
And when it causes isolationand exclusion of other things,
that's when it becomes addictiveand unhealthy.
Evan (43:35):
Yeah.
So you just you just said toomuch of a good thing, too much
of any good thing can bedestructive, right?
Melissa (43:41):
Absolutely.
Evan (43:42):
So can shame ever be useful?
Melissa (43:45):
So every feeling that we have serves a purpose.
So fear, for example, when onewould feel fear back how many
hundreds of years ago, it was Ifeel anxious or or I feel fear
because there's somethingwatching me.
And if something's watching me,it could be a tiger and it
(44:08):
might jump and kill me.
So it caused us to take action.
Anger tells us that there'ssomething that goes against who
we are that we might need toaddress.
So shame tells us that we'renot happy with a part of who we
are and we need to fix it.
Evan (44:28):
So fear is a preparatory reaction to a perceived threat.
Absolutely.
Right.
And shame is sort of the samething, right?
It's a threat to our psyche.
Melissa (44:37):
Sure.
It it's us being unhappy withsomething, and sh the shame is
the act of covering it upinstead of fixing it.
Evan (44:47):
Okay.
Okay.
I I would have I would havethought that shame would be your
inner psyche, and I tookpsychology 101, but I'm I'm
blanking on there's the id andall the other the ego, the super
ego, right?
Id, ego, super ego.
Melissa (45:01):
Yep.
Evan (45:02):
One of those is the self.
I think it's the id.
Melissa (45:04):
The id, I think, is the evil one.
Evan (45:06):
Ah, okay.
Well, whichever one.
Melissa (45:08):
It might be the ego.
I really don't know.
I wasn't a psych major.
Evan (45:11):
Right.
No, but you took the class'smaster's degree.
Melissa (45:16):
Long time ago.
And I don't practice Freudianstuff.
Fair enough.
Evan (45:21):
Fair enough.
But one of them is the self.
And I think that shame isbasically I've threatened myself
and who I see myself as.
Correct.
Right.
And so it is that naturalreaction the same way that fear
is a natural reaction to aperceived external threat.
Sure.
Right.
And it's it's the body's way ofsaying or the mind's way of
(45:44):
saying there's something wrongthat you need to resolve.
Melissa (45:47):
And even with fear, right?
We talk about our internalsmoke alarm is anxiety.
And some people are afraid ofeverything and they don't know
why.
And their smoke alarm is goingoff way too much.
So we have to look at thatbarometer and shift it.
Well, shame is no different.
(46:08):
Shame is a barometer.
So we feel shame over differentthings.
We're more sensitive to someperceived inadequacies than
others.
And the question becomes have Idealt with this perceived
inadequacy?
Have I navigated why it's thereand how it got there?
Because then I won't feel shameover it anymore.
(46:30):
I've shifted my barometer.
Evan (46:31):
Yeah.
All right, let's leave peoplewith something practical.
If someone's listening andthey're stuck in a shame spiral
right now, or you know, theyknow somebody who's stuck in a
shame spiral right now, or maybethey've seen it in the past and
they want to be prepared forthe future.
What's one thing they can dotoday to break out of it?
To, you know, keep in the backof their minds to remind
themselves.
If you're doing it, stop it andget some help.
Melissa (46:57):
Oh man.
So what can they do to get outof it?
Yeah.
Own it.
Just today.
To somebody, to yourself.
Own it.
Own that you have adestructive, maladaptive
response to something.
Because that's what it is.
It's a defense skill.
It's something is coming at meand I don't like it.
(47:19):
So I need to push people away.
Own it.
Evan (47:22):
How can people shift from I'm bad to I made a mistake?
Melissa (47:26):
They start by using their words and saying it.
The more we tell ourselves, themore we start to believe.
Innately, the vast majority ofpeople are both good and bad.
We all have good and bad insideof us.
And when we can acknowledgethat that's actually normal, I'm
not perfect.
You're not perfect.
I don't know anybody that wasperfect except Jesus.
(47:49):
And I didn't really know himpersonally, you know, when he
was alive.
But we're none of us areperfect.
And we all have things thatwe've done.
We all have a history.
We we all have things that wecouldn't control about our
upbringing that caused shame andmessages that were received
(48:10):
that also aren't our fault.
Some of us have been insituations where somebody else
has placed that shame upon usand we just need to recognize
that it was never ours to carry.
It was always theirs.
But we have to recognize itfirst and then actually dig in
and do the work of dealing withit.
Instead of believing that youcan control it or you're not
(48:33):
gonna do it anymore, or thatyou're just some superhero.
We all need help.
Evan (48:39):
Sounds like own it, say it, do it.
Melissa (48:41):
Very much so.
Because when you know better,you do better.
Know better, do better.
Evan (48:46):
Keeps coming back.
Sure does.
This has been another episodeof the Unmentionabcast.
Thank you so much forlistening, and we hope that we
have been able to share valuableperspectives that can help you
in your own life.
We want your feedback on futurecontent.
You can find us on the web atpodcast.theinmenablespod.com,
where you can follow us andsubscribe for subscriber only
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(49:09):
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