May 22, 2025 • 53 mins
How did an unnoticed and under-appreciated magazine editor in Wales overcome the challenges of building a multi million pound content agency serving major shopping centres across the UK?
In this episode:
- How Charlotte Laing transitioned from a freelancer to leading a team of over 50 people.
- The importance of storytelling in marketing and how to create engaging content that resonates with audiences.
- Strategies for scaling a business, including the challenges of recruitment, cash flow management, and maintaining quality as the team grows.
- Insights on navigating the competitive landscape of the agency world and how to stand out against larger firms.
- The role of AI in content creation and how to leverage technology while keeping the human touch in storytelling.
Charlotte also discusses her experience with the NatWest Accelerator program and the value of community support for entrepreneurs.
*Disclaimer: Please note that the views and information have not been endorsed, issued or approved by NatWest. Any views expressed in this podcast are not necessarily those of NatWest.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charlotte Laing (00:00):
In this conversation I'm going to talk
to Charlotte Lang, who is thefounder of a company called the
Content Emporium here in Bristol.
She's managed to go from beingthe unnoticed and
underappreciated journalist intothe founder of a multi-million
pound agency.
Let's hear her story, charlotte.
Thanks for coming to talk withme today at the NatWest
(00:22):
Unnoticed Entrepreneur podcastseries.
So tell us a little bit aboutyou and the business that you've
built over the last decade.
Jim James (00:29):
Yes, no problem, I'm Charlotte Lang and I'm the
founder and director of theContent Emporium.
We are now a team of growingweekly, quite honestly, but it's
approximately 53, 54 people atthe moment and we create content
for large brands.
So we work predominantly forshopping centres and we are that
kind of plug-in marketingresource that big brands really
(00:53):
struggle to have in-house,because I think the skills you
need now are so diverse acrosssocial media, web content and
everything that they really needsome support and we can offer
that at a high level, reallygood quality.
Charlotte Laing (01:07):
So you're based in Bristol, but your clients,
I'm assuming, are all over thecountry.
Jim James (01:12):
Indeed from Bluewater in Kent to St David's, Cardiff,
Buchanan Galleries in Glasgow.
So yeah, right across thecountry.
Charlotte Laing (01:19):
Okay.
So how have you managed tobuild the content emporium from
a base in Bristol to becomingreally a national content
company?
And that's a hell of a journey,because it's not easy to get
such large clients, especiallywhen you're an owner operator
rather than one of the big bluechip agencies.
Jim James (01:37):
That's right.
I think at the beginning it wasjust me.
You know, I was essentially afreelancer, solo sole trader,
and I approached one shoppingcenter actually to create a
magazine for them.
That magazine then went so wellit was such a good magazine
that people really loved thatthey said, oh well, we should
(01:57):
just run our website for us aswell.
Oh, maybe take on our email,marketing, social media.
So it just really grew reallyorganically from having done one
really good project that theytrusted us and trusted us, and
so we've grown as an agency andI've hired people to meet the
skill set needed by the shoppingcentres.
Once one shopping centre workedwith us, several others then
(02:20):
saw what we'd done and said, oh,I want what they've got.
That's better than what we'vegot.
So that's really how it's comeabout by word of mouth.
Charlotte Laing (02:28):
But what was your background before you
started the content emporium?
What were you doing?
Jim James (02:32):
I was a magazine editor, so I was based in Wales
at the time, in Cardiff.
I was a magazine editor forMedia Wales, so I was editing a
glossy women's magazine, so thatwas very.
I was from a very editorialjournalism background,
essentially trying to makethings genuinely interesting,
genuinely nice photography, um,on the website there'd be
(02:53):
genuinely good videography andeverything that people would
genuinely want to read, and Ithink that's what I was taking
into the marketing space.
Charlotte Laing (03:00):
So I was coming in quite fresh, not with a
marketing sensibility, but froma journalism and editorial
sensibility, and bringing thatinto marketing, which was quite,
you know, quite refreshing forthe people hiring us
sensibilities, because whenpeople think about content, they
may think of them both beingthe same thing a smiley face,
(03:28):
not happy customer and not seethe difference.
How do you define thedifference?
Jim James (03:32):
I think I think marketing hasn't actually come
on leaps and bounds, but I thinkthere was a bit of a tendency
in marketing to just go straightfor the sell.
You know, to kind of say thisis a great product, come and buy
it in a very stilted marketingway, whereas we would weave a
story around it about thelifestyle maybe you could have
if you had that product or, ifyou know, if you came and spent
(03:53):
more time in the shopping centre, the kind of person that you
would be at that point would bethe kind of person you might
want to be.
So I think we were kind ofcreating a lifestyle, as we did
when we were working onmagazines, kind of creating a
lifestyle as we did when we wereworking on magazines.
You know, a lifestyle thatpeople might aspire to, um, and
that's what we were bringinginto the, the marketing space
yeah, there's interest.
Charlotte Laing (04:12):
So you're really thinking also more about
the customer journey and thebackstory, rather than the
marketing being sort of top offunnel.
Yeah, work, and taking a muchbroader perspective that's it, I
think.
Jim James (04:22):
um, in a way, especially these days since
COVID, we're not selling theshirt that someone might buy
because they might buy thatonline.
We're selling the experience ofgoing in and buying that shirt
and spending time, maybe havinga meal at the same time, and so
we're kind of selling anexperience around a purchase
(04:42):
really.
Charlotte Laing (04:43):
Yeah, that's a really good point because, as
people can shop online, theydon't need a relationship
anymore with with the venue orthe vendor or the merchant.
But experiences are becomingsuch a key part of brand
building, aren't they as well?
Jim James (04:57):
yes, absolutely yeah.
So I think, um, I think that'sthat's where our skills as
really good copywriters come in,um, and the fact that the
photography that we'll create isthe kind of photography you
might find.
I think that's where our skillsas really good copywriters come
in, and the fact that thephotography that we'll create is
the kind of photography youmight find in a magazine or on a
more a website you might readfor fun, rather than a website
(05:17):
that's trying to sell yousomething.
Charlotte Laing (05:19):
Charlotte, let's just look at the
transition, because you had asuccessful job in South Wales
and then you said well, I justapproached a shopping center.
Something happens in between.
You know, there's thatentrepreneur moment, isn't there
?
What was that for you?
From the security and thefulfillment of working for a
magazine to pitching up to alarge shopping center and saying
(05:40):
, hey, I can do this for you.
Jim James (05:42):
I think in the role I was in with my journalism job,
I felt that I was giving toomuch to the role.
Really, I'm quite somebody whowill overwork or give a lot of
myself to a role.
So I think that it was almostobviously not being monetized
because I got my salary, but Iwas overworking in that role and
really creating somethingreally good and I thought maybe
(06:04):
I should do that for myself andactually get get paid for the
extra mile I'm willing to to runum.
So that's what I decided to doreally and just, yeah, walk away
and try and set something up onmy own.
It was a very lucky firstclient.
I think it did involve a bit ofpersistence.
I did send an email, thenanother email, then I phoned
them and you know, eventually,eventually they really wanted a
(06:25):
magazine.
It's just I had to keepknocking the door to make sure
that that got over.
The line.
Charlotte Laing (06:30):
I'm going to catch you there because you said
a bit of luck.
But I think we all know thatentrepreneurship is about a lot
of hard work and some couragetoo.
The luck is kind of how wemaybe dress it up later, you
being very modest Now, we maybedress it up later.
You're being very modest.
But you had that moment whereyou thought I'm overworking.
And so many of us have had thattime where we're not really
(06:50):
getting paid for what we'reworth.
And there comes that genesis ofan idea when you thought about
a shopping center.
Why a shopping center?
Just take us through that firstclient, because that's often
the hardest client to win is thefirst one.
So why did you go for thatshopping?
I?
Jim James (07:10):
think it felt really within my um, my skill set, in
that I was already writing aboutfashion, beauty, food and drink
.
It was all the lovely things Iwas writing about in the
magazine world and I thought Icould offer that to them and and
they could then have thiseditorial voice which would
really benefit them.
So I think that's where theshopping centre idea came from,
that I saw it as all the worldis there, if you like.
(07:33):
There's all the differentaspects of things I'd like to
write about and I could unearththe stories from within the
centre.
We could have human interestpieces and I just I saw it as
quite a rich seam of potential.
What is now called content, butactually at the time wasn't
really called content, um, Ionly named the business, the
content emporium, five yearsafter this, actually, and the
(07:55):
word content wasn't as prevalentas it is now no, exactly so
when.
Charlotte Laing (07:59):
When did you start the content emporium?
Jim James (08:01):
so I've.
I've launched it into a limitedcompany and took on my first
employee around 2015, so this isabout 10 years ago now, um, and
it was actually preceded by medeciding that I was 34 and
probably, if I was going to havea baby, I should probably have
a baby, um, but I had built thisuh, fledgling businessling
(08:24):
business, which you know, had acouple of, I think at the time.
I had a three or four shoppingcenters that I was working with
even by then, just as a soloentrepreneur, um, and I thought,
well, I can either just put itin the bin, tell them bye, I'm
gone, or I can hire someone totry and keep it going while I'm
away having a baby.
Uh, and I did, and I hired myfirst employee, who is now my
(08:47):
chief operations officer, um, sothis is over 10 years later.
She's my second in command andvery much running the business
alongside me now.
Charlotte Laing (08:54):
So she was again, I'm going to say lucky,
because she was a lucky hire, um, you know, I've definitely
nurtured her, but she was alucky hire because she was
really, really good well, but Ialso know, having hired you, my
first person, that then itchanged from being me working
when I wanted to work and theclients I wanted to work to
(09:14):
paying a salary at the end ofevery month and providing an
office and a computer, and itchanged the relationship I had
with my clients as well.
Can you just take us through?
What did you have to do as aperson, as an entrepreneur, once
you hired?
What's her name, by the way?
Jim James (09:32):
Well, her name is actually Charlotte as well.
Charlotte Laing (09:33):
Charlotte okay, the two Charlottes.
Jim James (09:35):
I was trying to clone myself and it did successfully
work.
Yeah, so we call her Charbecause we need to differentiate
.
Charlotte Laing (09:41):
So, char yeah, so do you want to just take us
through?
Because that first hire, in myexperience, is when you go from
having a company you know, whichfulfills your own needs, to
needing to fulfill the needs ofyour people as well as your
clients, because you've got toretain them, keep them employed,
keep them engaged.
How did you have to change howyou manage the business?
Jim James (10:05):
I think there was.
I've always been quite open asan entrepreneur, so I think I
just went through it with her.
I just sort of experienced thegrowing of the business and the
hiring of her with her.
Quite frankly, I just made itquite clear how much money was
coming in from the clients, whatwork we had to do, how we
needed to win some more.
Should we hire a third person?
(10:25):
We, you know, we had thesediscussions together, so I think
I just used I actually decidedI couldn't draw down an iron
curtain between me and thisperson who I was sitting in a
room with all day, every day,and actually just let her see
the growth of the business forherself.
Okay, um, you know how are wegoing to set up a server that we
can both use?
(10:45):
Let's figure out how we do that.
How are we going to you knowall sorts of things migrate to a
different email platform?
You know there was lots ofthings that we needed to do and
I just sort of talked about it.
Charlotte Laing (10:58):
But that's great because some people hire
somebody else and see this sortof almost boss employee
relationship, right yeah Istruggle with the boss label.
Jim James (11:07):
Really I don't, I don't, I don't identify much
with it, which I'm starting totry to slightly elevate myself
above the team now that there'sso many of them.
Charlotte Laing (11:17):
I've kept very open doors with everybody um
through the journey well, let'sjust talk about that, because
when you scale a business youknow my experience of growing an
agency as well is that you getto four or five people.
You know everybody's names.
You can be involved in helpingto check their work, for example
, help to sort their computers,and as you get bigger and bigger
it gets harder.
So let's just talk about thecontent department, because
(11:38):
you've grown it now to being amulti million pound business.
You've got 50 over staffserving multiple clients across
the country.
Charlotte, let's just talkabout some of the challenges
that you've faced in scaling.
Where should we start?
Do you want to talk first ofall about the recruitment side
and how you start to find theright people?
(12:00):
Because the organizationchanges, doesn't it?
Jim James (12:03):
people, because the organization changes, doesn't it
?
Yes, it does.
I think every scaling journeywill be a bit of a roller
coaster, in the sense that youkind of go through moments that
are difficult and then you havea moment of when you're in your
flow and you've got the rightnumber of people and they've got
the right skills and the rightamount of money's coming in, and
it's all great, great.
And then you can reach a stickypoint again where that's not
(12:26):
true anymore, and then so I'vebeen through a couple of those
waves and kind of can see how it, how it works out, I think from
my personal point of view.
I think around the, the onemillion mark I think.
I've heard other agency founderssaying this and other business
founders saying that when youget to about one million you've
got.
You can kind of still havequite close contact with your
(12:48):
staff.
You know them quite well.
The amount of work coming in isa lot, but you can kind of keep
a handle on it personally.
You can kind of understand whatall the work is and you know
where the projects are in theirstage of completion.
And you haven't necessarily gotto have loads of managers in
place.
You can have, you know, a fewpeople managing but you don't
(13:10):
have to have a whole layer and Ithink that breaking through
that barrier was a like toughmoment in the business really,
which was about a year and ahalf, two years ago, where we
needed to to try and breakthrough that barrier okay.
Charlotte Laing (13:23):
So when you had that barrier, you say you start
to get beyond about eight to 10people.
In my experience, you need tohave people to help manage the
people in the systems as well.
Yeah, what steps did you taketo do that?
Because a lot of entrepreneursget stuck at the million, want
to be in control, want to stillhave the, the customers maybe
(13:44):
still do the banking and financeon the weekend.
What did?
Jim James (13:48):
you have to do to change I had quite a frank
conversation with our biggestclient actually, because I
needed to get to the point.
I think I'd been charging, uh,at a level which was kind of
fine if I was just paying peopleto just do the work, and so
that's where we got a bit stuck.
I think we'd we'd agreed some,some rates with the client which
(14:11):
would just about just aboutcover the staff only, but no
management, no strategy, nofinance function, as you say, no
HR function.
So we got to a bit of a barrierwhere I knew that the the
revenue coming in wouldn't allowus to go beyond the staff that
we had and get the right levelof management so that we could
be the agency we needed to be.
(14:32):
So I just had a very frankconversation and kind of
asserted you know what we wereoffering and what we could, what
more we could offer as well ifwe became a slightly larger
agency that had a strategyfunction, had a better finance
function so that the invoicingwas done better, had a
(14:52):
management layer so they couldhave a single point of contact
where they could talk to someonereally quite senior and then
the work would just get donerather than them having to reach
into different parts of ourteam.
So this was really wellreceived, which I had.
You know it was actually throughthe NatWest Accelerator which
were I was on at the time um,which this, this um possibility
(15:15):
occurred to me because my mentorsort of said what, why are you
thinking about just the cost of?
You know, you're thinking aboutyourself as a cost to your
client.
You need to think about thevalue you're adding to your
client.
And it was like a revelatorymoment.
I was like, of course, ofcourse I need to think about
that, rather than, you know, Iwas obsessing over, you know,
this number of thousands, youknow, oh, maybe that's a bit
(15:36):
expensive um, and I think Istarted to think more in the
terms of the value we could addto them if we were a slightly
larger agency with the functionsthat they really needed us to
have.
Um.
So it was amazing conversationhad um had some support from the
netwest procurement team atthat point as well, which my
mentor here put me in touch withum.
(15:58):
So I had some quite openconversations where they um were
able to to share how a largecompany procures services which
you know, I felt like a littlefish in a small in a big pond
really from that point of view.
So, um, yeah, it was really aturning point in the business, I
think, just being able torenegotiate the terms and come
(16:19):
away with a a better contract todeliver even more work in the
end it turned out Because Ithink the client actually
appreciated the conversationbecause it made it seem we were
thinking like a big agency.
We wanted to deliver exceptionalservices.
So it was all really positive.
Charlotte Laing (16:36):
Yeah, but I think what's great there is that
you had that ambition, butthere must have been that also
anxiety, because as you grow thebusiness, certainly there's
that danger of overt trading.
Jim James (16:47):
Isn't that you get more clients but then you've got
to get more staff to to serveand sometimes the cash flow is
that you've got more people todeliver, a more payroll to make
before the clients are coming inabsolutely, and there's been
some tricky you know tricky cashflow moments for sure, when you
know that you're just waitingfor an invoice to get paid
before the end of the month,before payroll comes in, and
(17:08):
you're kind of checking thatyour mum's got some spare cash
that she could maybe put acrossinto your bank in case it
doesn't come in in time.
That those kind ofconversations, I think, most
scaling businesses.
If you've not got equityfunding or you know you've not
got a big, a big bank loanbehind, then that's the way that
it goes.
The staff get hired, the moneysometimes doesn't come in until
(17:28):
a bit later.
Charlotte Laing (17:29):
Yeah, we normally pay staff on 30 days
and clients, especially bigcompanies, pay 60, 90 days,
right?
But, charlotte, I'd love tojust hear from you what you
learned from the NatWestprocurement team, because that's
access to wisdom that it's veryhard to come by, right?
Because, on the whole, if we'regoing to be talking to a
company to sell our services,procurement is someone that you
(17:52):
fill out the form.
They may be on the other sideof a do not reply email address,
but you were given access tothe procurement team at NatWest,
which is amazing.
What did they tell you abouthow that works?
Jim James (18:05):
Because that's an insight that most people aren't
ever going to get I think theywere able to share what, what
the procurement team um with it,with a large company, would be
hoping to guard against.
So I think, because we wererelatively small and I think the
questions that were coming inand the, the delving, um, you
(18:27):
know, from our financials to ourteam structure and everything,
I found it quite you know it'squite invasive, but they were.
So the NatWest procurement teamreassured me.
It's just, they want to makesure that you're solid so that
you know if you've committed todeliver a multi-million pound
contract to a big company, theywant to know that contract can
really be delivered.
(18:48):
You've got the financialsecurity to see it through.
You've got the, the, the, theteam is really solid to deliver
that.
So I think that made it much.
I felt just reassured that thatstandard practice, um, it's
only trying to make sure thatthe service they're paying for
is really going to get delivered.
I knew I was going to deliverit so I kind of felt like, oh,
(19:09):
these questions are not needed.
But I can totally see why withretrospect.
Charlotte Laing (19:14):
And what's interesting, when you get to
bigger and bigger clients whichyou really need to grow a
business, to be larger andlarger is that you're selling to
multiple stakeholders in anorganization, aren't you?
You might have the marketingteam looking at what you're
providing for content andprocurement so you're having to
balance the two, aren't you?
And what were the expectationdifferences of the clients, the
(19:36):
shopping centers, as you startedto grow the content emporium,
and it sounds they bought intoyou and the vision of what you
could offer.
But what were they starting toask for?
That may have been differentfrom when they saw you, as you
know charlotte, who comes in andwe meet charlotte, and now
she's got a bigger companythat's it.
Jim James (19:54):
I think, um, I think number one, I think a layer of
uh, presenting ourselves well.
So I think I'd always thought,well, I'm doing work for them.
Doesn't really matter what welook like as a brand or how we
show off about what we've done.
But I think that's actually Iwas being a bit, a bit blind to
(20:16):
the importance of that,especially within a big
organization where, as you say,multiple stakeholders need to
buy into us being their bigagency.
So, actually, how we lookdigitally, how we present
reports to them, how we you know, when we present work to them,
even how we present the work,the document, the work comes in,
even little things like that.
Charlotte Laing (20:36):
I think I've really had my eyes open to how
important those signifiers areof whether you're a respectable
big agency right and, as you say, when, when big companies buy
companies, they're no longerbuying employees, right, and so,
mindset-wise, you almost wentin like an alternative employee,
but now you're a businesspartner and you have to be
(20:59):
perceived as that right.
Jim James (21:02):
Yes, we had to show that we had the right level of
strategy and management in place.
I think you know, again, theydidn't just want to deal with me
every, all the time anymore.
They wanted to see that I hadreally solid people who they
would equally have hired to, youknow, to run different parts of
the business as we, as weexpanded across social media,
web content, crm design.
(21:22):
They wanted a really strongcontact in each part of the
business and, I think, alsosocial media, I mean literally.
I remember the first time wewere handed the keys to a social
media account.
It was very casual.
It was very like how about yourun our Facebook account?
Um, whereas now there's so muchsort of strategy, and not just
(21:44):
a social media strategy but aplatform strategy.
So there's TikTok strategy.
We've launched TikTok for themas well, which was a big, you
know a big kind of strategicpiece of work which we
investigated where we should bein that space, you know how we
should present those quitecorporate brands in an
irreverent social media space.
So yeah, delivering thestrategy across all the
(22:08):
different channels and justproving that they can totally
rely on us really is the changeyou give to entrepreneurs that
are building their business, whomaybe can't afford a large
agency like yours, but need tobuild their brand?
Charlotte Laing (22:35):
what advice would you give people?
Jim James (22:38):
I would say, um, make content that's relatable.
So, I think, across socialmedia I wouldn't put out content
that's too, uh, kind ofcarefully branded.
I think people often make somegraphics.
They'll get, you know, we weretalking about Canva at a
previous conversation, sothey'll get some Canva and
(22:58):
they'll just, you know, makesome graphics that they think,
oh, this is in brand, and thenthey'll put those on the social
media channels, which I wouldhesitate to do.
That, I mean from theexperimentation we've done,
putting out a graphic with wordson is is often really not a
good, a good way to go.
Linkedin's probably theexception, um, but I think, um,
(23:20):
and having consistency acrossyour channel.
So, having a strong brand lookand tone of voice as well, and
making sure that you're knownfor that across all of your
channels, um, that would be okay.
And I think, um, if you can'tafford an agency to film for you
, just make sure that you setaside time every week to
actually create that content,because I think it's all very
(23:41):
well to have a kind of a plan tohave some content, but you have
to actually do that contentright, and so do you think
content now is is really king,for both entrepreneurs, but also
these large shopping centerclients that you're you're
serving I think it's beenabsolutely uh, huge actually,
because I think it's allowedthem to establish a voice in the
(24:03):
community.
So we, increasingly, arebringing in local voices,
whether that's employees whoactually work at the shopping
centre, or there'll be a lot ofcontent where we do guest
interactions, and I think thatit's really helped entrench the
shopping centres at the heart oftheir communities, which for
them, is the golden ticket.
You know that's really theywant to be top of mind.
(24:25):
You're going to go for a dayout on a Saturday.
Where are you going to go for aday out on a saturday?
Where are you going to go?
And I think that's been sovaluable for them to just be, um
, become more beloved, I think,through their social content.
You know, people literally inthe comments are like I
absolutely love this content,like this.
So we you know some of it is soum, so local, so entertaining,
(24:47):
um, and really, yeah, speaks tothe community that they're sort
of part of it.
Charlotte Laing (24:52):
Okay, and now when we talk about community,
you know you are part of theNetWest Accelerator community.
What role has sort of thecommunity here played for you as
you've grown the business?
Because, going from you knowzero with you in Charlottelotte,
or char as you call her, to 50plus people, you're building
(25:12):
your own community, but you'realso part of an entrepreneur
community.
So how important do you feelthat is and what role should
entrepreneurs look for?
Uh, in that, in that kind of acommunity?
Jim James (25:24):
I think it's been.
Uh, it was absolutely amazingexperience for me to be in the
NetWest Accelerator.
When I arrived, I didn't quiterealize how lonely I was in
terms of I was surrounded by myteam, but I was in a very
particular position where I hadall the financial burden of the
company, all the kind of clientburden, in a sense that the
(25:45):
ultimate client burden, in thatI had to retain the client, in a
sense that the ultimate clientburden, in that I had to retain
the client, um, all theresponsibility for their
salaries and, you know, their,their well-being.
And it felt quite heavy at thetime, I think, and nobody I
could particularly talk to aboutall of those things.
You know my husband wouldlisten, but I don't, you know,
it was sort of he wasn't in thesame boat, let's say so it was.
(26:07):
It was different but I think,arriving here, having a mentor
which I had, jason as a mentorand the support of the wider
entrepreneurial community here,so the mentors and NatWest, but
also all the other entrepreneursin the space, just having
really open, frank conversationsabout where I was, what you
know, what was the next step Iwas hoping to achieve, um, and
(26:31):
having their support as well.
So a bit of cheerleading fromthe from the entrepreneurs here
as well, was, like, really,really helpful.
I used to, you know, go homejust in with a different mindset
after a NatWest day, so a dayI'd been in here I would almost
skip out of the building,feeling lighter from having been
in here yeah, it's amazing howdifferent it can feel just to
(26:53):
feel like you're not alone,right.
Charlotte Laing (26:55):
And there are other people on the journey and
that you're not necessarilymaking the mistakes on your own.
We all make mistakes asentrepreneurs, but other people
are there to support you andhelp you to pick yourself up and
keep going.
On the mental health side, I dowant to touch on that because
we talk more and more aboutentrepreneurs and the journey
that we go on.
What have you found works foryou, charlotte?
(27:16):
Because as an entrepreneur, youdo have to carry, like a parent
, the weight of expectations.
I'm sure you're like me.
I try not to burden my wife andmy my children, with what I'm
going through.
What's been sort of for youbest practice in terms of
dealing with this, with thestresses and the strains of
(27:36):
growing the business?
Jim James (27:38):
I think, actually being more open about it.
So I think the you know, themore I talk to the entrepreneurs
in here and actually I thinkthen that opened the floodgates
even more for me to talk to myteam about it, actually about,
you know, some realconversations about the clients
that we needed to have, um, Ithink.
So I think openness has beenreally key and actually not I'm
(28:01):
not somebody who will try andhide, um, you know, if I'm
finding things tough, so I'llkind of go in and say, you know,
I'm feeling quite stressedtoday because there's just a lot
going on, and I'll say that tothe team.
You know, I won't, I won't hidethat from them and just kind of
not come in or something or beslamming things around.
I'll actually just say what'show I'm feeling.
(28:27):
So I think that's mentor supporthere at NatWest has been again
really transforming.
You know, there have been acouple of times when it was
particularly difficult and I'dwalk into a mentor session and
just kind of, you know, put myhead in my hands and go.
I don't know how I'm going toget through this week.
There's a lot going on, there'sjust such a lot I have to
achieve this week and it feelsyou know almost too much.
(28:50):
But just knowing someone's gotyour back really and is actually
aware that that's going on foryou, checking in on you saying
how's that, how's that gone, itwas really just really helpful.
I think so just knowing you'vegot a bit of support, even if
they don't do anything practical, knowing that somebody's
listening.
Charlotte Laing (29:07):
One thing comes to mind is you know the
question of we say I've got todo this.
You know, and why?
As an entrepreneur or as aperson?
Why do you need to grow yourbusiness?
Because as entrepreneurs, weput ourselves under incredible
pressure.
You know, you may have beenoverworked and overlooked, but
you had a normal salary, youcould spend time with your
(29:30):
daughter, so why do you want toput yourself through growing a
business like the ContentEmporium?
Jim James (29:38):
I think it's got some internal motion, the business
almost that you get.
You're in a system, then You'vehired people, the clients are
really keen for you to do morework for them, and it's kind of
like a self-perpetuating, likean engine that's almost running,
and so you are then aware thatyou're trying to function within
(30:00):
that self-propelling engine, ifyou like.
So I think it would have feltlike a huge failure to ever say
stop, stop the bus, I'm gettingoff the bus.
You know it's going too fastfor me.
So I think that's I've alwaysfelt this, this responsibility I
suppose to to kind of keep,keep the pace with how fast the
(30:20):
business needs to go.
I think I'm also, just at heart,quite an ambitious person and
quite, quite competitive person.
I always and quite, quitecompetitive person.
I always have been quite acompetitive person.
Um, and kind of the, the threadof um entrepreneurialism runs
quite strongly through me aswell.
So just the, the thought ofscaling a business is actually
(30:42):
quite exciting and that I can,you know, I can really make it
is actually quite, quitemotivating for me as well.
Charlotte Laing (30:50):
Yeah, and I want to come to that question of
competition, because you'vebuilt a company, but it's not in
isolation.
If you build an agency, it's anextremely competitive market.
You've got all the big players,the Omnicoms, the WPPs, the
digital Veritases.
How have you competed againstthese big companies who would
(31:13):
love to have those shoppingcenters as clients?
Jim James (31:15):
Yes, they would.
I have.
We have delivered exceptionalwork is the truth.
And so there have been, at theperiphery of what we do, there
have been some bigger agencieswho've kind of been taking maybe
small roles here and there,even bigger roles occasionally,
and it's just, without exception, been really unsuccessful
(31:40):
actually.
So I think the delivery we'revery strong on delivery and
there's a lot of work needs tobe done.
We're very strong on deliveryand there's a lot of work needs
to be done, and so you know, abig agency can come in with a
huge strategy proposal wherethey say this is what you should
do, or I've got a bright ideawhich we can also have as well,
but then the delivery is is notthere.
(32:02):
There's a kind of a fill in aform, and in two weeks time
maybe we'll get a copywriter towork on your poster that you
need made, or you know yourbillboard that, whereas we're
working on on it on the day.
You know.
So we're immediately involved,like our clients right hand
person, and they can talk to usdaily, have a daily conversation
(32:22):
with the people actually doingthe work.
Charlotte Laing (32:24):
Um, I think that's what's what's been our
saving grace, that's yeahallowed us to cut through and
and in essence that's a's beenour saving grace that's allowed
us to cut through and, inessence, that's a very positive
message for anyone thinkingabout running their own business
is that you don't have to worryabout the big companies,
because if you focus ondelivering great service and
being there for clients,actually the clients really
appreciate that, because onceyou've taken care of the
(32:45):
corporate side, you do need tolook like a trustworthy brand to
work with.
You can't look like a mom andpop shop because they've got to
go through the due diligence,yeah, but they want the
corporate reputation side andcredibility to safeguard their
own internal compliance.
But they want the kind ofdelivery that Charlotte and Char
(33:06):
can deliver, because you'repassionate about delivering
quality and helping them to getto their community.
Jim James (33:12):
And we're not hiring, you know, a junior.
So you know, I think a lot ofbig pitches there would be an
over-promising, and you knowthey bring out the big guns for
the pitch where they say we'lldo this and we'll do that, and
we've worked on the Nike accountand we've worked on the you
know whatever big, big, bigbrands.
And then in the end who ends upworking on the account is some
(33:33):
junior they've just hired out ofcollege, who has never, you
know, used a laptop before.
Charlotte Laing (33:38):
I'm exaggerating.
They used to call it the pitchand switch model right the pitch
and switch model the pitch andswitch.
Jim James (33:42):
I didn't know that phrase.
Charlotte Laing (33:43):
Yeah, the pitch and switch where you have big
agency comes in and really, forthem, it's all about shareholder
value, and so they always wouldtake as much of the money as
they could and give it to theinvestors, whereas people like
you know you running your ownbusiness, would reinvest it in
the team I genuinely want tojust do a really good job.
Jim James (34:01):
I would be mortified to misrepresent what we would
give to somebody and then givethem an inferior service.
I think I would always, ifanything, I'd be concerned how I
get, how can I spread my goodpeople across enough work?
I think it's.
Yeah, it would be completelyalien to operate in that way.
(34:21):
I think it.
Yeah, I would feel veryunsatisfied with the work we
were delivering face when we'reentrepreneurs.
Charlotte Laing (34:29):
And scaling is retaining that essential passion
and energy and quality andattention to detail, but scaling
it so that we don't get burntout and there are so many
agencies that fade away becausethe founder doesn't scale.
Charlotte, how have you managedto take that passion, that
attention to detail that yourclients really love and how have
(34:54):
you managed to get that intothe organization so that every
touchpoint for a blue water withthe content emporium feels like
it's a consistent experience?
How have you managed to scalethat magic, charlotte moment?
Jim James (35:12):
I think I'm quietly quite demanding and I think
people know that I think I havequite high expectations.
I think most people in thecompany would say I mean, I
don't particularly like the wordnice, but I think they would
think that I'm, you know, a kindemployer.
But also they can sense thatI'm I'm really bothered by
(35:32):
things being good and I thinkthat that's permeated through
the whole company.
And I think that the peopleI've hired in senior roles also
really care that things arereally good.
So my creative director reallycares, you know, and if
something looks, you know, if,if I'm, quite literally if
something's slightly out ofalignment in something that
we're putting through, he willtake it back to the stage where
(35:54):
it's got to get put back.
And same for the accountdirector on the biggest client,
my chief operations officer,obviously, who's been with me
for 12 years.
Everybody really cares thatthings are as good as they can
be and we'll take that Charlottevoice, I think, on themselves
(36:18):
and know that we have tomaintain that quality.
Charlotte Laing (36:20):
So you're a guardian of quality and you
create that threshold, which, ofcourse, is what the clients
still demand.
What about systems?
Because as you scale a businessand I ran an agency with
offices in three differentcountries as you scale a
business and I ran an agencywith offices in three different
countries and each individualperson coming on creates another
(36:40):
set of how they can seesomething to be done.
Can you just take us throughhow you've scaled the systems as
well?
Because a business can't growwithout the growth in the
infrastructure.
Jim James (36:48):
That's right.
I think we're still gettingthere.
I think there's more to be done.
Every day we're kind of likehow could we make this run more
smoothly?
There's no, I think you never.
You never win that battlereally.
And I think, as you, everystage of growth, every extra 10
people, you kind of think, oh,maybe there's some way we could
make this more cohesive.
(37:08):
Um, we've got, we use a, atrello system at the moment, so
the work flows through thecompany in a trello system.
Everybody has the sameprocedure and is very much
trained on how that needs tolook.
Um, in terms of socialmanagement, we've used sprout
social, which is a very sort ofhigh-end, expensive social uh
management tool which means thateverything is in one place and
(37:30):
very um, there's lots of systemswithin that that allow you to
trigger alerts to people whensomething happens.
Or there's um that that kind ofum brings us a lot of systems
that we we use.
We're just onboarding an agencymanagement software called
synergist, which I think um isuh very popular in the agency
(37:51):
world and that's going to be thekey to unlocking right from a
brief through to the workflowdelivery to the invoice Exactly
and the time tracking withinthat as well.
That will kind of run rightthrough the agency.
So we're hoping that's the nextsmoothing system that we put in
(38:11):
.
Charlotte Laing (38:11):
Okay, so as we grow the business, we've also
got to grow both the team.
Keep the culture but build thesystems.
We have to talk about cashflowbecause a business, you know,
really can have everything, butif it doesn't have cash it's
over, without going to too muchdetail, if you like.
But how are you managing thecashflow for growth, because
(38:35):
that's often a really stickysubject for people.
Jim James (38:38):
Yes, I think at the moment we are in a really good
position.
We've got long contracts and weare able to invoice ahead of
work delivery often, which isvery important for us.
It just means that there'sthere's never a gap between
having to pay the team andhaving to get paid for the work
and getting paid for the work.
So that's actually, um, quitetransform, transformative from a
(39:02):
cash flow point of view.
Again, it's a it's an awkwardconversation I've had to have
with a client at certain point,which was a couple of years ago,
and I had to say this is trickyfor us, we're a small agency
and actually it would be sobeneficial if we could have
different payment terms.
Was a couple of years ago and Ihad to say this is tricky for
us, we're a small agency andactually it would be so
beneficial if we could havedifferent payment terms.
So I think I think that's whatI'd advise to other other
agencies where that's a problem.
If you're valuable to yourclient, have that conversation.
(39:25):
They would want to help you.
They want you to be able todeliver the service.
They don't want you to not beable to deliver.
Charlotte Laing (39:31):
And Charlotte, I think that's such a great
mindset point that if you gointo the client feeling sort of
mendicant or sort of please giveme the work then, you do the
work and hope to invoice later.
But actually you have to havethe courage, don't you, to say,
actually I'm going to invoiceyou, I do 80% in advance, and if
(39:51):
they say no, then actually it'soften not the client that I
really need because I'motherwise carrying the risk.
Yeah, so it's great that you'restructuring your invoicing so
that you're taking the risk outof it, because you've got to
hire the staff and pay thirdparty.
So I wanted to touch on that isthis strategy of make sure you
get paid at least all your fixedcosts before you do the work,
(40:15):
even if you leave a tail of theprofit at the end.
Yes, that's it, which is youknow, yeah, so we can.
Jim James (40:20):
We can just about get by with if there's ad hoc
projects that come in, we canget by with invoicing them once
they're done, because that'strailing towards, you know,
either the final VAT payment ofthe year or the profit margin,
or so it's things that can waituntil that money does come in.
But, yeah, the core amount.
I think it's super importantthat you get that paid up as
(40:41):
soon as possible.
Charlotte Laing (40:42):
Good.
Jim James (40:43):
And a good large client would want that for you
yeah.
Charlotte Laing (40:46):
And actually once they've made the decision
to work with you, they're moreinterested in business
continuity because they've madethat decision put you through
procurement, absolutely that wasthat was really clear from the
procurement process was that'swhat they cared about?
Jim James (41:00):
they cared about the reliability of us as an agency.
They didn't care whether theypaid exactly the same amount but
30 days here or you know later.
They didn't, they didn't mindabout that good.
Charlotte Laing (41:10):
So another sort of a piece of advice perhaps
you're giving to people is beconfident, ask for the money
upfront, and also for the largecompany.
They're not paying from theirown pockets.
That's the difference withconsumer marketing, isn't it?
The consumer is paying out oftheir own wages, maybe, or
salary, but the business isgoing.
You're solving that problem.
Actually, it's just cashflowfor them, and they've probably
(41:32):
got enough cashflow to pay asmaller agency and not worry
about it anymore.
Charlotte, let's move on alittle bit.
We've got to talk about thetopic of the day, which is AI,
because you're in the contentbusiness and more and more
people are building more andmore content more and more
quickly.
More and more people arebuilding more and more content
(41:56):
more and more quickly.
Jim James (41:59):
What's your view on AI content as the content
emporium?
How do you think?
So a lot of our best contentinvolves people.
So the content that cutsthrough and which we've been
talking about for a number ofyears now is entertaining.
It's got people in it, peopleexperiencing the spaces that
we're talking about, andactually I don't know how AI is
(42:23):
in any time soon replacing thosepeople.
Then it's not.
So I think we're in quite afortunate position from that
point of view that we're notchurning out infographics or,
you know, text-based as I justsaid, text-based graphics that
could get put on social um, oreven you know, uh, sort of would
(42:43):
never run a stock image oranything like that that you
could again generate through AI.
Um, in terms of the copywriting,we have so many micro
conversations with our clients,where and you know you have to
bear in mind social captions inparticular are really quite
short um, we have so many microconversations with them about
exactly what their prioritiesare.
(43:04):
You know how they want toslightly pivot, the way they're
presenting a certain center um,that it's so much quicker to
just get that from your brainbecause we already have all of
that information.
So, to try to put that into anAI model that could then write
that caption as well as youcould, and we've tested it.
(43:27):
We've sort of tested what canit come up with?
And it feels so much moregeneric and, um, just something
that the general public would bequite suspicious of.
Charlotte Laing (43:40):
I think if they read it they'd go it's ai but
it's interesting that there's abecoming a sort of a distrust of
ai generated content and ofcourse it's becoming quite
vanilla and so actuallyconsumers.
Jim James (43:52):
Absolutely, and a proliferation of so much content
is being outputted that it'sthe stuff that has humans in it,
that actually feelsentertaining, that cuts through,
and so I feel really lucky thatwe're in that space where
that's the kind of agency we are.
Charlotte Laing (44:09):
We're creating kind of personality-led content,
and I think, as entrepreneursthat may be watching this, it
should also be reassuring thatthe humanness, the authenticity
of being themselves, is actuallywhat people are wanting, not
mass-produced AI graphics andcontent that just looks like a
(44:30):
fire hose of content, so itshould be also very reassuring
for people as well.
Yeah definitely.
Jim James (44:37):
But we're very much not saying, as an agency, let's
ignore it, put it in a box andleave it in the corner.
I think we're thinking how isthis a tool that we can use to
further our creativity?
So how can we use it for gain?
So there was a piece recently.
There's an employee atBluewater who is a bit of a
(45:01):
superstar.
We talk about her a lot.
She's in some of our content.
If we've got anything fun goingon, we'll draft her in because
she's a hoot.
So there was a trend recentlywhere people were using AI to
create a vacuum-packed versionof themselves as if they were a
little doll.
So we made a vacuum-packedversion of themselves, as if
they were a little doll.
So we made a vacuum-packedversion of Hev, who is the
superstar at Blue Water, andthat was a really popular piece
of social content.
We ran it on.
Social said look who we found.
(45:22):
You know it's Hev in a box andshe's got all like a Gregg's
pasty because she loves Gregg'spasty.
The things in the box are allvery relevant to her.
So we kind of needed to.
But we needed to use ourcreative thinking to think let's
put hev in a box.
She's gonna have to have agreg's pasty with her.
So we used it as anothercreative tool really to generate
that content, but it was justas much work as other content
(45:47):
that we do.
So in that sense, I think youknow there were, there were days
before photoshop, there weredays before in design and all
these tools we use now and wejust incorporate them into our
creative processes great, as yousay, we're really needing to
use ai to augment the creativeprocess, but heath or heath or
heath.
Charlotte Laing (46:06):
Sorry, she's heather, but she prefers heath
she already had a personalitythat was known and so you were
able to build off that, Whereasif you just done a packaged
anybody it wouldn't have had abackstory right.
So there's that authenticity.
Speaking of stories, then,Charlotte, as you start to look
at the next five years, where doyou see the content emporium
(46:31):
going?
Because you've got in front oflarge organizations, you've
built a bigger and bigger teamthat's still keeping the danger
of basically over-trading,getting more cost than income.
So the road's open for you.
Jim James (47:01):
Where do you?
go next in the next five years.
We feel really optimistic at themoment.
I think we just feel I've got areally good senior leadership
team in place.
So there are seven of us whoare like plotting the next phase
in place.
So there are seven of us whoare like plotting the next phase
, um, and I think, uh, withintwo years we're hoping to become
more of a sort of 10 millionturnover business.
So that's the road ahead,essentially, and the pathway to
(47:22):
get there has been plotted out,um, through a method I learned
at netwest, actually through thebackcasting method of you know,
you know, look at where youneed to get to, because really
we need to um, work with morebig clients to kind of de-risk
the business.
So we've got several reallylarge clients on the books, um,
and we know what that endscenario needs to look like in
(47:44):
in two years, and we've kind ofplotted out where we need to be
in two and a half years, wherewe need to be in two years, one
and a half one, and andtherefore what we need to do in
two and a half years.
Well, we need to be in twoyears, one and a half one, and
and therefore what we need to doin the next few weeks.
So there's, there's steps thatwe're taking that are slowly
getting us there.
So business development is ahuge, a huge focus for us.
Now I think that we've we'vekind of sort of recalibrated
(48:08):
ourself after, after winningquite a lot more work in the
last year, um, and just aboutfeel ready to now to go again.
Look, so we'll, we'll scaleagain.
But I think it's the businessdevelopment side of things which
I've always slightly put on theback burner, because the work's
come in organically and I'vealways felt, well, you know,
I've doubled the business thisyear.
(48:28):
As it is, I can't actively goover, you know, over more things
.
So but now I'm feeling let'sjust be really ambitious and
actually don't, don't prohibitthe growth, actually go after
the growth okay, that's great.
So backcasting has come from natwest and the kind of
conversations that you're havinghere, which is helping to
really give some, if I,management structure.
(48:50):
So you've come a long way frombeing an underappreciated
journalist in Wales to runningone of the UK's fastest growing
content businesses.
That's it.
I think, yeah, I think I wasalways.
Yeah, I think I was alwaysquite entrepreneurial.
Even so.
I was a journalist but I waskind of I'd worked in economics
before that, so I've kind of hadlike a financial
(49:11):
entrepreneurial thread throughmy whole life really.
But I think I didn't reallyhave those practical business
skills until I came to NetWest.
So, I think, learning modelslike backcasting, whereas I just
thought there was just thisfuture, this void of time ahead
of us, and I thought, oh well,I'll grow the business, I
suppose.
But I think when you actuallysay, okay, in three years' time
(49:33):
we want to be here, and whatthat means for where you need to
be in two years, one year, sixmonths, a month from now, it
makes you get real.
It makes you actually takegenuine steps that are genuinely
going to get you to that pointin three years where you want to
be, rather than just muddlingthrough and is backcasting,
discussing revenue or staff ormarket positioning or systems.
(49:58):
It's a bit of a whole, I mean.
I hope I'm presenting itcorrectly.
Charlotte Laing (50:04):
I might be completely wrong to me, but my
version of backcasting howyou're using it, that's what's
important.
Jim James (50:08):
It's actually like a vision for the whole company.
So it's almost a vision.
It's what the company shouldlook like in three years' time,
from everything from what I'mdoing to the number of team
members we might need to haveand the revenue that might be
coming in the client base wemight have.
So the whole proposition reallyabout what we would be at that
point.
And then you take each of thosestrands of the company and work
(50:32):
out from a people point of viewif we're going to need to get
to 200 people by that puts, asyou say, get the systems in
place early.
If you genuinely want to go forthat vision, don't hold back on
(50:58):
getting the systems ready toget you there.
Um, I think in the past I'vebeen a bit guilty of thinking oh
well, I at the moment I don'tneed an, you know, a finance
director at the moment I don'tneed, but maybe if, where you
want to get in a year's time,you do need one, probably good
to look at getting one now sothey can get you there.
Charlotte Laing (51:17):
So it sounds like being involved in the
accelerators and I don't meanthis in a in a bad way, so it
helped us all.
Professionalize absolutely yourapproach yeah, to running a
business rather than owning acompany.
Now you really see yourself asa business owner.
Yeah, and scaling would that befair?
Jim James (51:33):
I think I was uh sort of very caught up in
successfully doing the workbefore I came here and then it
made me realize theexceptionalism of my role
leading the business andactually needing to make the
decisions that would get us to afuture state that we need to be
in.
So, yeah, I think it hugelyhelped.
(51:53):
And all the entrepreneurialchatter in the room I loved it.
I just love being part of it.
It really, really appeals to meand I think again it made me
take stock of the gold mine I'msitting on.
Really that actually I wasaware I've got a really valuable
business here that I need toreally, really nurture yeah, and
(52:16):
you've been nurturing andgrowing it really really
amazingly, charlotte.
Charlotte Laing (52:19):
So thanks for sharing your story and welcome.
If there's someone thinkingabout joining an accelerator,
what, what would be your pieceof advice?
Jim James (52:31):
I would absolutely embrace it and take what you can
from it.
Make friends, kind of, take allof the advice that you can from
your mentor and, I think, bequite open to change, be aware
that maybe where you are withyour business at the moment is
(52:54):
not quite where you need to be.
I think the biggest successstories I've seen from my cohort
uh here at natwest has beenpeople who've actually had to
pivot their business quite a bitfor different reasons.
Either they they change whatthey're offering or they
completely change their mindset.
So I think I think that wouldbe it be open to change and
really embrace all of thecontacts that you'll make here.
Charlotte Laing (53:17):
Charlotte, thank you so much for joining me
today.
Jim James (53:19):
Thank you so much.
Speak soon.
In this conversation I'm going to talk
to Charlotte Lang, who is thefounder of a company called the
Content Emporium here in Bristol.
She's managed to go from beingthe unnoticed and
underappreciated journalist intothe founder of a multi-million
pound agency.
Let's hear her story, charlotte.
Thanks for coming to talk withme today at the NatWest
(00:22):
Unnoticed Entrepreneur podcastseries.
So tell us a little bit aboutyou and the business that you've
built over the last decade.
Jim James (00:29):
Yes, no problem, I'm Charlotte Lang and I'm the
founder and director of theContent Emporium.
We are now a team of growingweekly, quite honestly, but it's
approximately 53, 54 people atthe moment and we create content
for large brands.
So we work predominantly forshopping centres and we are that
kind of plug-in marketingresource that big brands really
(00:53):
struggle to have in-house,because I think the skills you
need now are so diverse acrosssocial media, web content and
everything that they really needsome support and we can offer
that at a high level, reallygood quality.
Charlotte Laing (01:07):
So you're based in Bristol, but your clients,
I'm assuming, are all over thecountry.
Jim James (01:12):
Indeed from Bluewater in Kent to St David's, Cardiff,
Buchanan Galleries in Glasgow.
So yeah, right across thecountry.
Charlotte Laing (01:19):
Okay.
So how have you managed tobuild the content emporium from
a base in Bristol to becomingreally a national content
company?
And that's a hell of a journey,because it's not easy to get
such large clients, especiallywhen you're an owner operator
rather than one of the big bluechip agencies.
Jim James (01:37):
That's right.
I think at the beginning it wasjust me.
You know, I was essentially afreelancer, solo sole trader,
and I approached one shoppingcenter actually to create a
magazine for them.
That magazine then went so wellit was such a good magazine
that people really loved thatthey said, oh well, we should
(01:57):
just run our website for us aswell.
Oh, maybe take on our email,marketing, social media.
So it just really grew reallyorganically from having done one
really good project that theytrusted us and trusted us, and
so we've grown as an agency andI've hired people to meet the
skill set needed by the shoppingcentres.
Once one shopping centre workedwith us, several others then
(02:20):
saw what we'd done and said, oh,I want what they've got.
That's better than what we'vegot.
So that's really how it's comeabout by word of mouth.
Charlotte Laing (02:28):
But what was your background before you
started the content emporium?
What were you doing?
Jim James (02:32):
I was a magazine editor, so I was based in Wales
at the time, in Cardiff.
I was a magazine editor forMedia Wales, so I was editing a
glossy women's magazine, so thatwas very.
I was from a very editorialjournalism background,
essentially trying to makethings genuinely interesting,
genuinely nice photography, um,on the website there'd be
(02:53):
genuinely good videography andeverything that people would
genuinely want to read, and Ithink that's what I was taking
into the marketing space.
Charlotte Laing (03:00):
So I was coming in quite fresh, not with a
marketing sensibility, but froma journalism and editorial
sensibility, and bringing thatinto marketing, which was quite,
you know, quite refreshing forthe people hiring us
sensibilities, because whenpeople think about content, they
may think of them both beingthe same thing a smiley face,
(03:28):
not happy customer and not seethe difference.
How do you define thedifference?
Jim James (03:32):
I think I think marketing hasn't actually come
on leaps and bounds, but I thinkthere was a bit of a tendency
in marketing to just go straightfor the sell.
You know, to kind of say thisis a great product, come and buy
it in a very stilted marketingway, whereas we would weave a
story around it about thelifestyle maybe you could have
if you had that product or, ifyou know, if you came and spent
(03:53):
more time in the shopping centre, the kind of person that you
would be at that point would bethe kind of person you might
want to be.
So I think we were kind ofcreating a lifestyle, as we did
when we were working onmagazines, kind of creating a
lifestyle as we did when we wereworking on magazines.
You know, a lifestyle thatpeople might aspire to, um, and
that's what we were bringinginto the, the marketing space
yeah, there's interest.
Charlotte Laing (04:12):
So you're really thinking also more about
the customer journey and thebackstory, rather than the
marketing being sort of top offunnel.
Yeah, work, and taking a muchbroader perspective that's it, I
think.
Jim James (04:22):
um, in a way, especially these days since
COVID, we're not selling theshirt that someone might buy
because they might buy thatonline.
We're selling the experience ofgoing in and buying that shirt
and spending time, maybe havinga meal at the same time, and so
we're kind of selling anexperience around a purchase
(04:42):
really.
Charlotte Laing (04:43):
Yeah, that's a really good point because, as
people can shop online, theydon't need a relationship
anymore with with the venue orthe vendor or the merchant.
But experiences are becomingsuch a key part of brand
building, aren't they as well?
Jim James (04:57):
yes, absolutely yeah.
So I think, um, I think that'sthat's where our skills as
really good copywriters come in,um, and the fact that the
photography that we'll create isthe kind of photography you
might find.
I think that's where our skillsas really good copywriters come
in, and the fact that thephotography that we'll create is
the kind of photography youmight find in a magazine or on a
more a website you might readfor fun, rather than a website
(05:17):
that's trying to sell yousomething.
Charlotte Laing (05:19):
Charlotte, let's just look at the
transition, because you had asuccessful job in South Wales
and then you said well, I justapproached a shopping center.
Something happens in between.
You know, there's thatentrepreneur moment, isn't there
?
What was that for you?
From the security and thefulfillment of working for a
magazine to pitching up to alarge shopping center and saying
(05:40):
, hey, I can do this for you.
Jim James (05:42):
I think in the role I was in with my journalism job,
I felt that I was giving toomuch to the role.
Really, I'm quite somebody whowill overwork or give a lot of
myself to a role.
So I think that it was almostobviously not being monetized
because I got my salary, but Iwas overworking in that role and
really creating somethingreally good and I thought maybe
(06:04):
I should do that for myself andactually get get paid for the
extra mile I'm willing to to runum.
So that's what I decided to doreally and just, yeah, walk away
and try and set something up onmy own.
It was a very lucky firstclient.
I think it did involve a bit ofpersistence.
I did send an email, thenanother email, then I phoned
them and you know, eventually,eventually they really wanted a
(06:25):
magazine.
It's just I had to keepknocking the door to make sure
that that got over.
The line.
Charlotte Laing (06:30):
I'm going to catch you there because you said
a bit of luck.
But I think we all know thatentrepreneurship is about a lot
of hard work and some couragetoo.
The luck is kind of how wemaybe dress it up later, you
being very modest Now, we maybedress it up later.
You're being very modest.
But you had that moment whereyou thought I'm overworking.
And so many of us have had thattime where we're not really
(06:50):
getting paid for what we'reworth.
And there comes that genesis ofan idea when you thought about
a shopping center.
Why a shopping center?
Just take us through that firstclient, because that's often
the hardest client to win is thefirst one.
So why did you go for thatshopping?
I?
Jim James (07:10):
think it felt really within my um, my skill set, in
that I was already writing aboutfashion, beauty, food and drink
.
It was all the lovely things Iwas writing about in the
magazine world and I thought Icould offer that to them and and
they could then have thiseditorial voice which would
really benefit them.
So I think that's where theshopping centre idea came from,
that I saw it as all the worldis there, if you like.
(07:33):
There's all the differentaspects of things I'd like to
write about and I could unearththe stories from within the
centre.
We could have human interestpieces and I just I saw it as
quite a rich seam of potential.
What is now called content, butactually at the time wasn't
really called content, um, Ionly named the business, the
content emporium, five yearsafter this, actually, and the
(07:55):
word content wasn't as prevalentas it is now no, exactly so
when.
Charlotte Laing (07:59):
When did you start the content emporium?
Jim James (08:01):
so I've.
I've launched it into a limitedcompany and took on my first
employee around 2015, so this isabout 10 years ago now, um, and
it was actually preceded by medeciding that I was 34 and
probably, if I was going to havea baby, I should probably have
a baby, um, but I had built thisuh, fledgling businessling
(08:24):
business, which you know, had acouple of, I think at the time.
I had a three or four shoppingcenters that I was working with
even by then, just as a soloentrepreneur, um, and I thought,
well, I can either just put itin the bin, tell them bye, I'm
gone, or I can hire someone totry and keep it going while I'm
away having a baby.
Uh, and I did, and I hired myfirst employee, who is now my
(08:47):
chief operations officer, um, sothis is over 10 years later.
She's my second in command andvery much running the business
alongside me now.
Charlotte Laing (08:54):
So she was again, I'm going to say lucky,
because she was a lucky hire, um, you know, I've definitely
nurtured her, but she was alucky hire because she was
really, really good well, but Ialso know, having hired you, my
first person, that then itchanged from being me working
when I wanted to work and theclients I wanted to work to
(09:14):
paying a salary at the end ofevery month and providing an
office and a computer, and itchanged the relationship I had
with my clients as well.
Can you just take us through?
What did you have to do as aperson, as an entrepreneur, once
you hired?
What's her name, by the way?
Jim James (09:32):
Well, her name is actually Charlotte as well.
Charlotte Laing (09:33):
Charlotte okay, the two Charlottes.
Jim James (09:35):
I was trying to clone myself and it did successfully
work.
Yeah, so we call her Charbecause we need to differentiate
.
Charlotte Laing (09:41):
So, char yeah, so do you want to just take us
through?
Because that first hire, in myexperience, is when you go from
having a company you know, whichfulfills your own needs, to
needing to fulfill the needs ofyour people as well as your
clients, because you've got toretain them, keep them employed,
keep them engaged.
How did you have to change howyou manage the business?
Jim James (10:05):
I think there was.
I've always been quite open asan entrepreneur, so I think I
just went through it with her.
I just sort of experienced thegrowing of the business and the
hiring of her with her.
Quite frankly, I just made itquite clear how much money was
coming in from the clients, whatwork we had to do, how we
needed to win some more.
Should we hire a third person?
(10:25):
We, you know, we had thesediscussions together, so I think
I just used I actually decidedI couldn't draw down an iron
curtain between me and thisperson who I was sitting in a
room with all day, every day,and actually just let her see
the growth of the business forherself.
Okay, um, you know how are wegoing to set up a server that we
can both use?
(10:45):
Let's figure out how we do that.
How are we going to you knowall sorts of things migrate to a
different email platform?
You know there was lots ofthings that we needed to do and
I just sort of talked about it.
Charlotte Laing (10:58):
But that's great because some people hire
somebody else and see this sortof almost boss employee
relationship, right yeah Istruggle with the boss label.
Jim James (11:07):
Really I don't, I don't, I don't identify much
with it, which I'm starting totry to slightly elevate myself
above the team now that there'sso many of them.
Charlotte Laing (11:17):
I've kept very open doors with everybody um
through the journey well, let'sjust talk about that, because
when you scale a business youknow my experience of growing an
agency as well is that you getto four or five people.
You know everybody's names.
You can be involved in helpingto check their work, for example
, help to sort their computers,and as you get bigger and bigger
it gets harder.
So let's just talk about thecontent department, because
(11:38):
you've grown it now to being amulti million pound business.
You've got 50 over staffserving multiple clients across
the country.
Charlotte, let's just talkabout some of the challenges
that you've faced in scaling.
Where should we start?
Do you want to talk first ofall about the recruitment side
and how you start to find theright people?
(12:00):
Because the organizationchanges, doesn't it?
Jim James (12:03):
people, because the organization changes, doesn't it
?
Yes, it does.
I think every scaling journeywill be a bit of a roller
coaster, in the sense that youkind of go through moments that
are difficult and then you havea moment of when you're in your
flow and you've got the rightnumber of people and they've got
the right skills and the rightamount of money's coming in, and
it's all great, great.
And then you can reach a stickypoint again where that's not
(12:26):
true anymore, and then so I'vebeen through a couple of those
waves and kind of can see how it, how it works out, I think from
my personal point of view.
I think around the, the onemillion mark I think.
I've heard other agency founderssaying this and other business
founders saying that when youget to about one million you've
got.
You can kind of still havequite close contact with your
(12:48):
staff.
You know them quite well.
The amount of work coming in isa lot, but you can kind of keep
a handle on it personally.
You can kind of understand whatall the work is and you know
where the projects are in theirstage of completion.
And you haven't necessarily gotto have loads of managers in
place.
You can have, you know, a fewpeople managing but you don't
(13:10):
have to have a whole layer and Ithink that breaking through
that barrier was a like toughmoment in the business really,
which was about a year and ahalf, two years ago, where we
needed to to try and breakthrough that barrier okay.
Charlotte Laing (13:23):
So when you had that barrier, you say you start
to get beyond about eight to 10people.
In my experience, you need tohave people to help manage the
people in the systems as well.
Yeah, what steps did you taketo do that?
Because a lot of entrepreneursget stuck at the million, want
to be in control, want to stillhave the, the customers maybe
(13:44):
still do the banking and financeon the weekend.
What did?
Jim James (13:48):
you have to do to change I had quite a frank
conversation with our biggestclient actually, because I
needed to get to the point.
I think I'd been charging, uh,at a level which was kind of
fine if I was just paying peopleto just do the work, and so
that's where we got a bit stuck.
I think we'd we'd agreed some,some rates with the client which
(14:11):
would just about just aboutcover the staff only, but no
management, no strategy, nofinance function, as you say, no
HR function.
So we got to a bit of a barrierwhere I knew that the the
revenue coming in wouldn't allowus to go beyond the staff that
we had and get the right levelof management so that we could
be the agency we needed to be.
(14:32):
So I just had a very frankconversation and kind of
asserted you know what we wereoffering and what we could, what
more we could offer as well ifwe became a slightly larger
agency that had a strategyfunction, had a better finance
function so that the invoicingwas done better, had a
(14:52):
management layer so they couldhave a single point of contact
where they could talk to someonereally quite senior and then
the work would just get donerather than them having to reach
into different parts of ourteam.
So this was really wellreceived, which I had.
You know it was actually throughthe NatWest Accelerator which
were I was on at the time um,which this, this um possibility
(15:15):
occurred to me because my mentorsort of said what, why are you
thinking about just the cost of?
You know, you're thinking aboutyourself as a cost to your
client.
You need to think about thevalue you're adding to your
client.
And it was like a revelatorymoment.
I was like, of course, ofcourse I need to think about
that, rather than, you know, Iwas obsessing over, you know,
this number of thousands, youknow, oh, maybe that's a bit
(15:36):
expensive um, and I think Istarted to think more in the
terms of the value we could addto them if we were a slightly
larger agency with the functionsthat they really needed us to
have.
Um.
So it was amazing conversationhad um had some support from the
netwest procurement team atthat point as well, which my
mentor here put me in touch withum.
(15:58):
So I had some quite openconversations where they um were
able to to share how a largecompany procures services which
you know, I felt like a littlefish in a small in a big pond
really from that point of view.
So, um, yeah, it was really aturning point in the business, I
think, just being able torenegotiate the terms and come
(16:19):
away with a a better contract todeliver even more work in the
end it turned out Because Ithink the client actually
appreciated the conversationbecause it made it seem we were
thinking like a big agency.
We wanted to deliver exceptionalservices.
So it was all really positive.
Charlotte Laing (16:36):
Yeah, but I think what's great there is that
you had that ambition, butthere must have been that also
anxiety, because as you grow thebusiness, certainly there's
that danger of overt trading.
Jim James (16:47):
Isn't that you get more clients but then you've got
to get more staff to to serveand sometimes the cash flow is
that you've got more people todeliver, a more payroll to make
before the clients are coming inabsolutely, and there's been
some tricky you know tricky cashflow moments for sure, when you
know that you're just waitingfor an invoice to get paid
before the end of the month,before payroll comes in, and
(17:08):
you're kind of checking thatyour mum's got some spare cash
that she could maybe put acrossinto your bank in case it
doesn't come in in time.
That those kind ofconversations, I think, most
scaling businesses.
If you've not got equityfunding or you know you've not
got a big, a big bank loanbehind, then that's the way that
it goes.
The staff get hired, the moneysometimes doesn't come in until
(17:28):
a bit later.
Charlotte Laing (17:29):
Yeah, we normally pay staff on 30 days
and clients, especially bigcompanies, pay 60, 90 days,
right?
But, charlotte, I'd love tojust hear from you what you
learned from the NatWestprocurement team, because that's
access to wisdom that it's veryhard to come by, right?
Because, on the whole, if we'regoing to be talking to a
company to sell our services,procurement is someone that you
(17:52):
fill out the form.
They may be on the other sideof a do not reply email address,
but you were given access tothe procurement team at NatWest,
which is amazing.
What did they tell you abouthow that works?
Jim James (18:05):
Because that's an insight that most people aren't
ever going to get I think theywere able to share what, what
the procurement team um with it,with a large company, would be
hoping to guard against.
So I think, because we wererelatively small and I think the
questions that were coming inand the, the delving, um, you
(18:27):
know, from our financials to ourteam structure and everything,
I found it quite you know it'squite invasive, but they were.
So the NatWest procurement teamreassured me.
It's just, they want to makesure that you're solid so that
you know if you've committed todeliver a multi-million pound
contract to a big company, theywant to know that contract can
really be delivered.
(18:48):
You've got the financialsecurity to see it through.
You've got the, the, the, theteam is really solid to deliver
that.
So I think that made it much.
I felt just reassured that thatstandard practice, um, it's
only trying to make sure thatthe service they're paying for
is really going to get delivered.
I knew I was going to deliverit so I kind of felt like, oh,
(19:09):
these questions are not needed.
But I can totally see why withretrospect.
Charlotte Laing (19:14):
And what's interesting, when you get to
bigger and bigger clients whichyou really need to grow a
business, to be larger andlarger is that you're selling to
multiple stakeholders in anorganization, aren't you?
You might have the marketingteam looking at what you're
providing for content andprocurement so you're having to
balance the two, aren't you?
And what were the expectationdifferences of the clients, the
(19:36):
shopping centers, as you startedto grow the content emporium,
and it sounds they bought intoyou and the vision of what you
could offer.
But what were they starting toask for?
That may have been differentfrom when they saw you, as you
know charlotte, who comes in andwe meet charlotte, and now
she's got a bigger companythat's it.
Jim James (19:54):
I think, um, I think number one, I think a layer of
uh, presenting ourselves well.
So I think I'd always thought,well, I'm doing work for them.
Doesn't really matter what welook like as a brand or how we
show off about what we've done.
But I think that's actually Iwas being a bit, a bit blind to
(20:16):
the importance of that,especially within a big
organization where, as you say,multiple stakeholders need to
buy into us being their bigagency.
So, actually, how we lookdigitally, how we present
reports to them, how we you know, when we present work to them,
even how we present the work,the document, the work comes in,
even little things like that.
Charlotte Laing (20:36):
I think I've really had my eyes open to how
important those signifiers areof whether you're a respectable
big agency right and, as you say, when, when big companies buy
companies, they're no longerbuying employees, right, and so,
mindset-wise, you almost wentin like an alternative employee,
but now you're a businesspartner and you have to be
(20:59):
perceived as that right.
Jim James (21:02):
Yes, we had to show that we had the right level of
strategy and management in place.
I think you know, again, theydidn't just want to deal with me
every, all the time anymore.
They wanted to see that I hadreally solid people who they
would equally have hired to, youknow, to run different parts of
the business as we, as weexpanded across social media,
web content, crm design.
(21:22):
They wanted a really strongcontact in each part of the
business and, I think, alsosocial media, I mean literally.
I remember the first time wewere handed the keys to a social
media account.
It was very casual.
It was very like how about yourun our Facebook account?
Um, whereas now there's so muchsort of strategy, and not just
(21:44):
a social media strategy but aplatform strategy.
So there's TikTok strategy.
We've launched TikTok for themas well, which was a big, you
know a big kind of strategicpiece of work which we
investigated where we should bein that space, you know how we
should present those quitecorporate brands in an
irreverent social media space.
So yeah, delivering thestrategy across all the
(22:08):
different channels and justproving that they can totally
rely on us really is the changeyou give to entrepreneurs that
are building their business, whomaybe can't afford a large
agency like yours, but need tobuild their brand?
Charlotte Laing (22:35):
what advice would you give people?
Jim James (22:38):
I would say, um, make content that's relatable.
So, I think, across socialmedia I wouldn't put out content
that's too, uh, kind ofcarefully branded.
I think people often make somegraphics.
They'll get, you know, we weretalking about Canva at a
previous conversation, sothey'll get some Canva and
(22:58):
they'll just, you know, makesome graphics that they think,
oh, this is in brand, and thenthey'll put those on the social
media channels, which I wouldhesitate to do.
That, I mean from theexperimentation we've done,
putting out a graphic with wordson is is often really not a
good, a good way to go.
Linkedin's probably theexception, um, but I think, um,
(23:20):
and having consistency acrossyour channel.
So, having a strong brand lookand tone of voice as well, and
making sure that you're knownfor that across all of your
channels, um, that would be okay.
And I think, um, if you can'tafford an agency to film for you
, just make sure that you setaside time every week to
actually create that content,because I think it's all very
(23:41):
well to have a kind of a plan tohave some content, but you have
to actually do that contentright, and so do you think
content now is is really king,for both entrepreneurs, but also
these large shopping centerclients that you're you're
serving I think it's beenabsolutely uh, huge actually,
because I think it's allowedthem to establish a voice in the
(24:03):
community.
So we, increasingly, arebringing in local voices,
whether that's employees whoactually work at the shopping
centre, or there'll be a lot ofcontent where we do guest
interactions, and I think thatit's really helped entrench the
shopping centres at the heart oftheir communities, which for
them, is the golden ticket.
You know that's really theywant to be top of mind.
(24:25):
You're going to go for a dayout on a Saturday.
Where are you going to go for aday out on a saturday?
Where are you going to go?
And I think that's been sovaluable for them to just be, um
, become more beloved, I think,through their social content.
You know, people literally inthe comments are like I
absolutely love this content,like this.
So we you know some of it is soum, so local, so entertaining,
(24:47):
um, and really, yeah, speaks tothe community that they're sort
of part of it.
Charlotte Laing (24:52):
Okay, and now when we talk about community,
you know you are part of theNetWest Accelerator community.
What role has sort of thecommunity here played for you as
you've grown the business?
Because, going from you knowzero with you in Charlottelotte,
or char as you call her, to 50plus people, you're building
(25:12):
your own community, but you'realso part of an entrepreneur
community.
So how important do you feelthat is and what role should
entrepreneurs look for?
Uh, in that, in that kind of acommunity?
Jim James (25:24):
I think it's been.
Uh, it was absolutely amazingexperience for me to be in the
NetWest Accelerator.
When I arrived, I didn't quiterealize how lonely I was in
terms of I was surrounded by myteam, but I was in a very
particular position where I hadall the financial burden of the
company, all the kind of clientburden, in a sense that the
(25:45):
ultimate client burden, in thatI had to retain the client, in a
sense that the ultimate clientburden, in that I had to retain
the client, um, all theresponsibility for their
salaries and, you know, their,their well-being.
And it felt quite heavy at thetime, I think, and nobody I
could particularly talk to aboutall of those things.
You know my husband wouldlisten, but I don't, you know,
it was sort of he wasn't in thesame boat, let's say so it was.
(26:07):
It was different but I think,arriving here, having a mentor
which I had, jason as a mentorand the support of the wider
entrepreneurial community here,so the mentors and NatWest, but
also all the other entrepreneursin the space, just having
really open, frank conversationsabout where I was, what you
know, what was the next step Iwas hoping to achieve, um, and
(26:31):
having their support as well.
So a bit of cheerleading fromthe from the entrepreneurs here
as well, was, like, really,really helpful.
I used to, you know, go homejust in with a different mindset
after a NatWest day, so a dayI'd been in here I would almost
skip out of the building,feeling lighter from having been
in here yeah, it's amazing howdifferent it can feel just to
(26:53):
feel like you're not alone,right.
Charlotte Laing (26:55):
And there are other people on the journey and
that you're not necessarilymaking the mistakes on your own.
We all make mistakes asentrepreneurs, but other people
are there to support you andhelp you to pick yourself up and
keep going.
On the mental health side, I dowant to touch on that because
we talk more and more aboutentrepreneurs and the journey
that we go on.
What have you found works foryou, charlotte?
(27:16):
Because as an entrepreneur, youdo have to carry, like a parent
, the weight of expectations.
I'm sure you're like me.
I try not to burden my wife andmy my children, with what I'm
going through.
What's been sort of for youbest practice in terms of
dealing with this, with thestresses and the strains of
(27:36):
growing the business?
Jim James (27:38):
I think, actually being more open about it.
So I think the you know, themore I talk to the entrepreneurs
in here and actually I thinkthen that opened the floodgates
even more for me to talk to myteam about it, actually about,
you know, some realconversations about the clients
that we needed to have, um, Ithink.
So I think openness has beenreally key and actually not I'm
(28:01):
not somebody who will try andhide, um, you know, if I'm
finding things tough, so I'llkind of go in and say, you know,
I'm feeling quite stressedtoday because there's just a lot
going on, and I'll say that tothe team.
You know, I won't, I won't hidethat from them and just kind of
not come in or something or beslamming things around.
I'll actually just say what'show I'm feeling.
(28:27):
So I think that's mentor supporthere at NatWest has been again
really transforming.
You know, there have been acouple of times when it was
particularly difficult and I'dwalk into a mentor session and
just kind of, you know, put myhead in my hands and go.
I don't know how I'm going toget through this week.
There's a lot going on, there'sjust such a lot I have to
achieve this week and it feelsyou know almost too much.
(28:50):
But just knowing someone's gotyour back really and is actually
aware that that's going on foryou, checking in on you saying
how's that, how's that gone, itwas really just really helpful.
I think so just knowing you'vegot a bit of support, even if
they don't do anything practical, knowing that somebody's
listening.
Charlotte Laing (29:07):
One thing comes to mind is you know the
question of we say I've got todo this.
You know, and why?
As an entrepreneur or as aperson?
Why do you need to grow yourbusiness?
Because as entrepreneurs, weput ourselves under incredible
pressure.
You know, you may have beenoverworked and overlooked, but
you had a normal salary, youcould spend time with your
(29:30):
daughter, so why do you want toput yourself through growing a
business like the ContentEmporium?
Jim James (29:38):
I think it's got some internal motion, the business
almost that you get.
You're in a system, then You'vehired people, the clients are
really keen for you to do morework for them, and it's kind of
like a self-perpetuating, likean engine that's almost running,
and so you are then aware thatyou're trying to function within
(30:00):
that self-propelling engine, ifyou like.
So I think it would have feltlike a huge failure to ever say
stop, stop the bus, I'm gettingoff the bus.
You know it's going too fastfor me.
So I think that's I've alwaysfelt this, this responsibility I
suppose to to kind of keep,keep the pace with how fast the
(30:20):
business needs to go.
I think I'm also, just at heart,quite an ambitious person and
quite, quite competitive person.
I always and quite, quitecompetitive person.
I always have been quite acompetitive person.
Um, and kind of the, the threadof um entrepreneurialism runs
quite strongly through me aswell.
So just the, the thought ofscaling a business is actually
(30:42):
quite exciting and that I can,you know, I can really make it
is actually quite, quitemotivating for me as well.
Charlotte Laing (30:50):
Yeah, and I want to come to that question of
competition, because you'vebuilt a company, but it's not in
isolation.
If you build an agency, it's anextremely competitive market.
You've got all the big players,the Omnicoms, the WPPs, the
digital Veritases.
How have you competed againstthese big companies who would
(31:13):
love to have those shoppingcenters as clients?
Jim James (31:15):
Yes, they would.
I have.
We have delivered exceptionalwork is the truth.
And so there have been, at theperiphery of what we do, there
have been some bigger agencieswho've kind of been taking maybe
small roles here and there,even bigger roles occasionally,
and it's just, without exception, been really unsuccessful
(31:40):
actually.
So I think the delivery we'revery strong on delivery and
there's a lot of work needs tobe done.
We're very strong on deliveryand there's a lot of work needs
to be done, and so you know, abig agency can come in with a
huge strategy proposal wherethey say this is what you should
do, or I've got a bright ideawhich we can also have as well,
but then the delivery is is notthere.
(32:02):
There's a kind of a fill in aform, and in two weeks time
maybe we'll get a copywriter towork on your poster that you
need made, or you know yourbillboard that, whereas we're
working on on it on the day.
You know.
So we're immediately involved,like our clients right hand
person, and they can talk to usdaily, have a daily conversation
(32:22):
with the people actually doingthe work.
Charlotte Laing (32:24):
Um, I think that's what's what's been our
saving grace, that's yeahallowed us to cut through and
and in essence that's a's beenour saving grace that's allowed
us to cut through and, inessence, that's a very positive
message for anyone thinkingabout running their own business
is that you don't have to worryabout the big companies,
because if you focus ondelivering great service and
being there for clients,actually the clients really
appreciate that, because onceyou've taken care of the
(32:45):
corporate side, you do need tolook like a trustworthy brand to
work with.
You can't look like a mom andpop shop because they've got to
go through the due diligence,yeah, but they want the
corporate reputation side andcredibility to safeguard their
own internal compliance.
But they want the kind ofdelivery that Charlotte and Char
(33:06):
can deliver, because you'repassionate about delivering
quality and helping them to getto their community.
Jim James (33:12):
And we're not hiring, you know, a junior.
So you know, I think a lot ofbig pitches there would be an
over-promising, and you knowthey bring out the big guns for
the pitch where they say we'lldo this and we'll do that, and
we've worked on the Nike accountand we've worked on the you
know whatever big, big, bigbrands.
And then in the end who ends upworking on the account is some
(33:33):
junior they've just hired out ofcollege, who has never, you
know, used a laptop before.
Charlotte Laing (33:38):
I'm exaggerating.
They used to call it the pitchand switch model right the pitch
and switch model the pitch andswitch.
Jim James (33:42):
I didn't know that phrase.
Charlotte Laing (33:43):
Yeah, the pitch and switch where you have big
agency comes in and really, forthem, it's all about shareholder
value, and so they always wouldtake as much of the money as
they could and give it to theinvestors, whereas people like
you know you running your ownbusiness, would reinvest it in
the team I genuinely want tojust do a really good job.
Jim James (34:01):
I would be mortified to misrepresent what we would
give to somebody and then givethem an inferior service.
I think I would always, ifanything, I'd be concerned how I
get, how can I spread my goodpeople across enough work?
I think it's.
Yeah, it would be completelyalien to operate in that way.
(34:21):
I think it.
Yeah, I would feel veryunsatisfied with the work we
were delivering face when we'reentrepreneurs.
Charlotte Laing (34:29):
And scaling is retaining that essential passion
and energy and quality andattention to detail, but scaling
it so that we don't get burntout and there are so many
agencies that fade away becausethe founder doesn't scale.
Charlotte, how have you managedto take that passion, that
attention to detail that yourclients really love and how have
(34:54):
you managed to get that intothe organization so that every
touchpoint for a blue water withthe content emporium feels like
it's a consistent experience?
How have you managed to scalethat magic, charlotte moment?
Jim James (35:12):
I think I'm quietly quite demanding and I think
people know that I think I havequite high expectations.
I think most people in thecompany would say I mean, I
don't particularly like the wordnice, but I think they would
think that I'm, you know, a kindemployer.
But also they can sense thatI'm I'm really bothered by
(35:32):
things being good and I thinkthat that's permeated through
the whole company.
And I think that the peopleI've hired in senior roles also
really care that things arereally good.
So my creative director reallycares, you know, and if
something looks, you know, if,if I'm, quite literally if
something's slightly out ofalignment in something that
we're putting through, he willtake it back to the stage where
(35:54):
it's got to get put back.
And same for the accountdirector on the biggest client,
my chief operations officer,obviously, who's been with me
for 12 years.
Everybody really cares thatthings are as good as they can
be and we'll take that Charlottevoice, I think, on themselves
(36:18):
and know that we have tomaintain that quality.
Charlotte Laing (36:20):
So you're a guardian of quality and you
create that threshold, which, ofcourse, is what the clients
still demand.
What about systems?
Because as you scale a businessand I ran an agency with
offices in three differentcountries as you scale a
business and I ran an agencywith offices in three different
countries and each individualperson coming on creates another
(36:40):
set of how they can seesomething to be done.
Can you just take us throughhow you've scaled the systems as
well?
Because a business can't growwithout the growth in the
infrastructure.
Jim James (36:48):
That's right.
I think we're still gettingthere.
I think there's more to be done.
Every day we're kind of likehow could we make this run more
smoothly?
There's no, I think you never.
You never win that battlereally.
And I think, as you, everystage of growth, every extra 10
people, you kind of think, oh,maybe there's some way we could
make this more cohesive.
(37:08):
Um, we've got, we use a, atrello system at the moment, so
the work flows through thecompany in a trello system.
Everybody has the sameprocedure and is very much
trained on how that needs tolook.
Um, in terms of socialmanagement, we've used sprout
social, which is a very sort ofhigh-end, expensive social uh
management tool which means thateverything is in one place and
(37:30):
very um, there's lots of systemswithin that that allow you to
trigger alerts to people whensomething happens.
Or there's um that that kind ofum brings us a lot of systems
that we we use.
We're just onboarding an agencymanagement software called
synergist, which I think um isuh very popular in the agency
(37:51):
world and that's going to be thekey to unlocking right from a
brief through to the workflowdelivery to the invoice Exactly
and the time tracking withinthat as well.
That will kind of run rightthrough the agency.
So we're hoping that's the nextsmoothing system that we put in
(38:11):
.
Charlotte Laing (38:11):
Okay, so as we grow the business, we've also
got to grow both the team.
Keep the culture but build thesystems.
We have to talk about cashflowbecause a business, you know,
really can have everything, butif it doesn't have cash it's
over, without going to too muchdetail, if you like.
But how are you managing thecashflow for growth, because
(38:35):
that's often a really stickysubject for people.
Jim James (38:38):
Yes, I think at the moment we are in a really good
position.
We've got long contracts and weare able to invoice ahead of
work delivery often, which isvery important for us.
It just means that there'sthere's never a gap between
having to pay the team andhaving to get paid for the work
and getting paid for the work.
So that's actually, um, quitetransform, transformative from a
(39:02):
cash flow point of view.
Again, it's a it's an awkwardconversation I've had to have
with a client at certain point,which was a couple of years ago,
and I had to say this is trickyfor us, we're a small agency
and actually it would be sobeneficial if we could have
different payment terms.
Was a couple of years ago and Ihad to say this is tricky for
us, we're a small agency andactually it would be so
beneficial if we could havedifferent payment terms.
So I think I think that's whatI'd advise to other other
agencies where that's a problem.
If you're valuable to yourclient, have that conversation.
(39:25):
They would want to help you.
They want you to be able todeliver the service.
They don't want you to not beable to deliver.
Charlotte Laing (39:31):
And Charlotte, I think that's such a great
mindset point that if you gointo the client feeling sort of
mendicant or sort of please giveme the work then, you do the
work and hope to invoice later.
But actually you have to havethe courage, don't you, to say,
actually I'm going to invoiceyou, I do 80% in advance, and if
(39:51):
they say no, then actually it'soften not the client that I
really need because I'motherwise carrying the risk.
Yeah, so it's great that you'restructuring your invoicing so
that you're taking the risk outof it, because you've got to
hire the staff and pay thirdparty.
So I wanted to touch on that isthis strategy of make sure you
get paid at least all your fixedcosts before you do the work,
(40:15):
even if you leave a tail of theprofit at the end.
Yes, that's it, which is youknow, yeah, so we can.
Jim James (40:20):
We can just about get by with if there's ad hoc
projects that come in, we canget by with invoicing them once
they're done, because that'strailing towards, you know,
either the final VAT payment ofthe year or the profit margin,
or so it's things that can waituntil that money does come in.
But, yeah, the core amount.
I think it's super importantthat you get that paid up as
(40:41):
soon as possible.
Charlotte Laing (40:42):
Good.
Jim James (40:43):
And a good large client would want that for you
yeah.
Charlotte Laing (40:46):
And actually once they've made the decision
to work with you, they're moreinterested in business
continuity because they've madethat decision put you through
procurement, absolutely that wasthat was really clear from the
procurement process was that'swhat they cared about?
Jim James (41:00):
they cared about the reliability of us as an agency.
They didn't care whether theypaid exactly the same amount but
30 days here or you know later.
They didn't, they didn't mindabout that good.
Charlotte Laing (41:10):
So another sort of a piece of advice perhaps
you're giving to people is beconfident, ask for the money
upfront, and also for the largecompany.
They're not paying from theirown pockets.
That's the difference withconsumer marketing, isn't it?
The consumer is paying out oftheir own wages, maybe, or
salary, but the business isgoing.
You're solving that problem.
Actually, it's just cashflowfor them, and they've probably
(41:32):
got enough cashflow to pay asmaller agency and not worry
about it anymore.
Charlotte, let's move on alittle bit.
We've got to talk about thetopic of the day, which is AI,
because you're in the contentbusiness and more and more
people are building more andmore content more and more
quickly.
More and more people arebuilding more and more content
(41:56):
more and more quickly.
Jim James (41:59):
What's your view on AI content as the content
emporium?
How do you think?
So a lot of our best contentinvolves people.
So the content that cutsthrough and which we've been
talking about for a number ofyears now is entertaining.
It's got people in it, peopleexperiencing the spaces that
we're talking about, andactually I don't know how AI is
(42:23):
in any time soon replacing thosepeople.
Then it's not.
So I think we're in quite afortunate position from that
point of view that we're notchurning out infographics or,
you know, text-based as I justsaid, text-based graphics that
could get put on social um, oreven you know, uh, sort of would
(42:43):
never run a stock image oranything like that that you
could again generate through AI.
Um, in terms of the copywriting,we have so many micro
conversations with our clients,where and you know you have to
bear in mind social captions inparticular are really quite
short um, we have so many microconversations with them about
exactly what their prioritiesare.
(43:04):
You know how they want toslightly pivot, the way they're
presenting a certain center um,that it's so much quicker to
just get that from your brainbecause we already have all of
that information.
So, to try to put that into anAI model that could then write
that caption as well as youcould, and we've tested it.
(43:27):
We've sort of tested what canit come up with?
And it feels so much moregeneric and, um, just something
that the general public would bequite suspicious of.
Charlotte Laing (43:40):
I think if they read it they'd go it's ai but
it's interesting that there's abecoming a sort of a distrust of
ai generated content and ofcourse it's becoming quite
vanilla and so actuallyconsumers.
Jim James (43:52):
Absolutely, and a proliferation of so much content
is being outputted that it'sthe stuff that has humans in it,
that actually feelsentertaining, that cuts through,
and so I feel really lucky thatwe're in that space where
that's the kind of agency we are.
Charlotte Laing (44:09):
We're creating kind of personality-led content,
and I think, as entrepreneursthat may be watching this, it
should also be reassuring thatthe humanness, the authenticity
of being themselves, is actuallywhat people are wanting, not
mass-produced AI graphics andcontent that just looks like a
(44:30):
fire hose of content, so itshould be also very reassuring
for people as well.
Yeah definitely.
Jim James (44:37):
But we're very much not saying, as an agency, let's
ignore it, put it in a box andleave it in the corner.
I think we're thinking how isthis a tool that we can use to
further our creativity?
So how can we use it for gain?
So there was a piece recently.
There's an employee atBluewater who is a bit of a
(45:01):
superstar.
We talk about her a lot.
She's in some of our content.
If we've got anything fun goingon, we'll draft her in because
she's a hoot.
So there was a trend recentlywhere people were using AI to
create a vacuum-packed versionof themselves as if they were a
little doll.
So we made a vacuum-packedversion of themselves, as if
they were a little doll.
So we made a vacuum-packedversion of Hev, who is the
superstar at Blue Water, andthat was a really popular piece
of social content.
We ran it on.
Social said look who we found.
(45:22):
You know it's Hev in a box andshe's got all like a Gregg's
pasty because she loves Gregg'spasty.
The things in the box are allvery relevant to her.
So we kind of needed to.
But we needed to use ourcreative thinking to think let's
put hev in a box.
She's gonna have to have agreg's pasty with her.
So we used it as anothercreative tool really to generate
that content, but it was justas much work as other content
(45:47):
that we do.
So in that sense, I think youknow there were, there were days
before photoshop, there weredays before in design and all
these tools we use now and wejust incorporate them into our
creative processes great, as yousay, we're really needing to
use ai to augment the creativeprocess, but heath or heath or
heath.
Charlotte Laing (46:06):
Sorry, she's heather, but she prefers heath
she already had a personalitythat was known and so you were
able to build off that, Whereasif you just done a packaged
anybody it wouldn't have had abackstory right.
So there's that authenticity.
Speaking of stories, then,Charlotte, as you start to look
at the next five years, where doyou see the content emporium
(46:31):
going?
Because you've got in front oflarge organizations, you've
built a bigger and bigger teamthat's still keeping the danger
of basically over-trading,getting more cost than income.
So the road's open for you.
Jim James (47:01):
Where do you?
go next in the next five years.
We feel really optimistic at themoment.
I think we just feel I've got areally good senior leadership
team in place.
So there are seven of us whoare like plotting the next phase
in place.
So there are seven of us whoare like plotting the next phase
, um, and I think, uh, withintwo years we're hoping to become
more of a sort of 10 millionturnover business.
So that's the road ahead,essentially, and the pathway to
(47:22):
get there has been plotted out,um, through a method I learned
at netwest, actually through thebackcasting method of you know,
you know, look at where youneed to get to, because really
we need to um, work with morebig clients to kind of de-risk
the business.
So we've got several reallylarge clients on the books, um,
and we know what that endscenario needs to look like in
(47:44):
in two years, and we've kind ofplotted out where we need to be
in two and a half years, wherewe need to be in two years, one
and a half one, and andtherefore what we need to do in
two and a half years.
Well, we need to be in twoyears, one and a half one, and
and therefore what we need to doin the next few weeks.
So there's, there's steps thatwe're taking that are slowly
getting us there.
So business development is ahuge, a huge focus for us.
Now I think that we've we'vekind of sort of recalibrated
(48:08):
ourself after, after winningquite a lot more work in the
last year, um, and just aboutfeel ready to now to go again.
Look, so we'll, we'll scaleagain.
But I think it's the businessdevelopment side of things which
I've always slightly put on theback burner, because the work's
come in organically and I'vealways felt, well, you know,
I've doubled the business thisyear.
(48:28):
As it is, I can't actively goover, you know, over more things
.
So but now I'm feeling let'sjust be really ambitious and
actually don't, don't prohibitthe growth, actually go after
the growth okay, that's great.
So backcasting has come from natwest and the kind of
conversations that you're havinghere, which is helping to
really give some, if I,management structure.
(48:50):
So you've come a long way frombeing an underappreciated
journalist in Wales to runningone of the UK's fastest growing
content businesses.
That's it.
I think, yeah, I think I wasalways.
Yeah, I think I was alwaysquite entrepreneurial.
Even so.
I was a journalist but I waskind of I'd worked in economics
before that, so I've kind of hadlike a financial
(49:11):
entrepreneurial thread throughmy whole life really.
But I think I didn't reallyhave those practical business
skills until I came to NetWest.
So, I think, learning modelslike backcasting, whereas I just
thought there was just thisfuture, this void of time ahead
of us, and I thought, oh well,I'll grow the business, I
suppose.
But I think when you actuallysay, okay, in three years' time
(49:33):
we want to be here, and whatthat means for where you need to
be in two years, one year, sixmonths, a month from now, it
makes you get real.
It makes you actually takegenuine steps that are genuinely
going to get you to that pointin three years where you want to
be, rather than just muddlingthrough and is backcasting,
discussing revenue or staff ormarket positioning or systems.
(49:58):
It's a bit of a whole, I mean.
I hope I'm presenting itcorrectly.
Charlotte Laing (50:04):
I might be completely wrong to me, but my
version of backcasting howyou're using it, that's what's
important.
Jim James (50:08):
It's actually like a vision for the whole company.
So it's almost a vision.
It's what the company shouldlook like in three years' time,
from everything from what I'mdoing to the number of team
members we might need to haveand the revenue that might be
coming in the client base wemight have.
So the whole proposition reallyabout what we would be at that
point.
And then you take each of thosestrands of the company and work
(50:32):
out from a people point of viewif we're going to need to get
to 200 people by that puts, asyou say, get the systems in
place early.
If you genuinely want to go forthat vision, don't hold back on
(50:58):
getting the systems ready toget you there.
Um, I think in the past I'vebeen a bit guilty of thinking oh
well, I at the moment I don'tneed an, you know, a finance
director at the moment I don'tneed, but maybe if, where you
want to get in a year's time,you do need one, probably good
to look at getting one now sothey can get you there.
Charlotte Laing (51:17):
So it sounds like being involved in the
accelerators and I don't meanthis in a in a bad way, so it
helped us all.
Professionalize absolutely yourapproach yeah, to running a
business rather than owning acompany.
Now you really see yourself asa business owner.
Yeah, and scaling would that befair?
Jim James (51:33):
I think I was uh sort of very caught up in
successfully doing the workbefore I came here and then it
made me realize theexceptionalism of my role
leading the business andactually needing to make the
decisions that would get us to afuture state that we need to be
in.
So, yeah, I think it hugelyhelped.
(51:53):
And all the entrepreneurialchatter in the room I loved it.
I just love being part of it.
It really, really appeals to meand I think again it made me
take stock of the gold mine I'msitting on.
Really that actually I wasaware I've got a really valuable
business here that I need toreally, really nurture yeah, and
(52:16):
you've been nurturing andgrowing it really really
amazingly, charlotte.
Charlotte Laing (52:19):
So thanks for sharing your story and welcome.
If there's someone thinkingabout joining an accelerator,
what, what would be your pieceof advice?
Jim James (52:31):
I would absolutely embrace it and take what you can
from it.
Make friends, kind of, take allof the advice that you can from
your mentor and, I think, bequite open to change, be aware
that maybe where you are withyour business at the moment is
(52:54):
not quite where you need to be.
I think the biggest successstories I've seen from my cohort
uh here at natwest has beenpeople who've actually had to
pivot their business quite a bitfor different reasons.
Either they they change whatthey're offering or they
completely change their mindset.
So I think I think that wouldbe it be open to change and
really embrace all of thecontacts that you'll make here.
Charlotte Laing (53:17):
Charlotte, thank you so much for joining me
today.
Jim James (53:19):
Thank you so much.
Speak soon.
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Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.