June 30, 2024 • 39 mins
How do you rebuild your life after an unimaginable loss? Join us for a deeply moving episode of the Unscripted Mind Podcast, where we sit down with Monica Mead, a licensed professional counselor whose journey into grief counseling was tragically inspired by the loss of her daughter in 2013. Monica challenges conventional grief models, offering profound insights into the complex and varied forms of grief that can stem from losing a loved one, a job, a pet, or even physical abilities. Through her story, Monica provides a raw and powerful narrative that will resonate with anyone who has faced loss.
We venture into the concept of "collateral beauty"—the unexpected grace and growth that can emerge from grief. Monica and I discuss the importance of keeping the memory of lost loved ones alive and finding hope amidst the pain. We break down societal misconceptions about grief, address its permanence, and highlight the essential role that community support plays in the healing process. This conversation is a reminder that grief doesn't follow a set timeline and that it's okay to experience it in your own unique way.
Relationships, especially marriages, often face significant challenges in the aftermath of profound loss. Monica shares startling statistics about the impact of losing a child on marital stability and offers wisdom on how couples can navigate this tumultuous journey. We explore the transformative power of grief, likening it to a forest regrowing after a fire, and discuss practical ways to honor loved ones through meaningful actions. Whether you're looking for ways to support a grieving friend or seeking solace in your own journey, this episode provides heartfelt guidance and hope.
The goal of The UnScripted Mind Podcast is to give you fresh perspectives, practical insights and tools you can use to give you more choices, self-awareness and control of your feelings, reactions and behaviors.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim Cunningham (00:01):
Welcome to the Unscripted Mind Podcast, where
our goal is to give you freshperspectives, practical insights
and tools you can use to giveyou more choices, increase your
awareness and have bettercontrol of your feelings,
reactions and behaviors.
My name is Jim Cunningham, I'ma licensed professional
counselor and today we're goingto discuss grief and loss.
This is something that none ofus is immune to.
(00:23):
We will all lose someone orsomething we love at some point.
When that happens, it changesour lives and often forces us to
change ourselves.
Grief is a powerful and complexemotion that can leave us
feeling lost, overwhelmed andunsure of how to move forward.
But with the right guidance andsupport, it's possible to
(00:44):
navigate this challengingjourney and find a path to
healing.
Grief is like the ocean itcomes on waves, ebbing and
flowing.
Sometimes the water is calm,sometimes it's overwhelming, and
all we can do is learn to swim,says Vicki Harrison.
Recently, I sat down with MonicaMead, a colleague of mine and a
(01:04):
licensed professional counselor, for a frank and open
discussion on how to handlelosses in our lives.
Monica has extensive experiencein grief and loss therapy.
That began with the loss of herown daughter over a decade ago.
Monica has since dedicated hercareer to helping others process
their grief, finding meaningafter loss and rebuilding their
(01:24):
lives.
She has an empathetic approachand profound understanding of
grief and may challenge the waysyou think about grief and how
to handle that.
We'll discuss what grief is andwhat it isn't, how to process
that grief and some practicaltools you can use to help
yourself or someone you careabout.
Whether you're navigating yourown grief or supporting a loved
(01:46):
one, this conversation is oneyou won't want to miss.
On this episode of theUnscripted Mind.
Lots of places to start withgrief and loss.
So how did you even begin toget into dealing with that with
clients?
Monica Meade (02:06):
Sure For me, jim.
It was born out of necessity.
I experienced my own griefjourney in 2013 when, I lost my
daughter unexpectedly in a verytraumatic way, and searching out
a therapist that understoodwhat I was going through and was
able to help me was moredifficult than I could have
(02:27):
imagined.
I sought people outspecifically that claimed to
specialize in grief, and therewas plenty of times that I felt
dismissed, that I felt like Ishould be in a different place
than I was.
I should be further along in adifferent place than I was.
I should be further along.
Now, mind you, this was monthsafter the death, so I don't
(02:48):
think that that was appropriate,and I realized there was just a
need for somebody whounderstood the depths of grief
and also the journey in whichyou walk and how it's lifelong
and how complex it is.
Jim Cunningham (03:07):
So in your experience, not a lot of people
were doing what you do.
Monica Meade (03:12):
Oh, absolutely not , and what I found actually was
more the textbook journeythrough grief.
They wanted to talk about thefive stages and they thought
they were very linear.
Once you go through denial,then there's anger, but that's
not what I was experiencing atall.
So, instead of feeling therelief from therapy, I felt bad
about where I was and I didn'tfeel that I was on a healing
(03:38):
journey.
Jim Cunningham (03:38):
Okay.
Monica Meade (03:40):
And I didn't feel understood.
Jim Cunningham (03:41):
Sure, where do you think most people get it
wrong?
And I didn't feel understood.
Monica Meade (03:43):
Sure, where do you think most people get it wrong.
I think most people get itwrong with expectations.
I think there's expectationssocietal, cultural, all kinds of
expectations about where youshould be on the grief journey
and what you should be feeling,and I think that's where I was
(04:07):
failed.
And you know, these people thatI saw were absolutely wonderful
in other areas of therapy, butthis just wasn't where I think
that they should havespecialized in.
Jim Cunningham (04:18):
Yeah, for sure.
How would you define grief?
Ah, just go back to the basics.
Monica Meade (04:25):
Sure, so a loss.
Obviously it's the symptomology, I think, of a large loss you
experience.
So it could be grief can alsoexist in losing a job, losing a
pet, losing a relationship.
Jim Cunningham (04:42):
It doesn't just mean death, yeah.
So, for example, I see clientswho have had physical injuries
and they're not able to competeanymore.
They aren't able to do whatthey used to, and you would
categorize that as grief andloss also.
Monica Meade (04:55):
Yes, if they are experiencing the symptoms of
grief that are accompanying alsothis loss of being able to do
what they had thought they coulddo, sure.
Jim Cunningham (05:05):
What would you say?
Those symptoms are whensomebody walks in.
Monica Meade (05:07):
You're like oh, that's grief right there, okay.
So generally when I get peoplein for grief, they know that
they're coming in to see me forgrief.
But there has been times that Isay to them I think you're
experiencing grief with this,and what that has been is not
generally with a death, but withthe loss of a job, the loss of
(05:28):
a limb, the loss of a futurethey had planned that didn't
come to fruition, and so what?
Those symptoms that I look for,that I notice would be very
similar to depression in thesense of sadness, in the sense
of asking the questions why thewoulda, shoulda, couldas, all of
those things, reliving it overand over in a circular fashion
(05:52):
without an exit point.
Jim Cunningham (05:55):
Okay, so kind of getting stuck.
Monica Meade (05:56):
Exactly.
Jim Cunningham (05:57):
This would include, I just think of all the
other things like retirement,yes, and things that people
wouldn't normally associate asgrief.
Monica Meade (06:06):
Sure, and I don't think we talk about that enough
how a big change in your life is, can be, can affect you in the
way that grief would.
Jim Cunningham (06:16):
Yeah, so you mentioned the stages of grief.
Monica Meade (06:22):
Sure.
Jim Cunningham (06:24):
What are those and how do you apply those, or
do they even have any relevancewhatsoever anymore?
Monica Meade (06:30):
Sure, you know, jim, I'm probably the worst
counselor therapist to ask thisto that specializes in grief,
because I don't buy into them.
Okay, because.
So in 1979, it was ElizabethKubler-Ross that came out with
these five stages of grief andwhat they were, where she
gathered the information to comeup with it from was hospice
(06:53):
patients.
So she was working with thesepatients in hospice end of life
care and had developed, hadrecognized OK, there's five
different stages that thesepeople are going through.
Recognized okay, there's fivedifferent stages that these
people are going through.
She didn't study their lovedones after the loss but only
them at the end of their life.
So it's end of the life loss.
And so then at that point it'seasy to see why it's linear, why
(07:15):
you start at one point and youend at another point, and while
that's still very related togrief, it's not linear.
When you experience grief, it'snot a linear moving comfortably
from one stage to the next.
Instead, it's very chaotic, andyou may stay in denial much
longer than even yourcounterpart.
(07:35):
You may stay in one stage for avery short time.
You may never even visit thatstage.
So, I don't buy into that.
Jim Cunningham (07:47):
So there are.
I assume by the time mostpeople come to see you they're
not using healthy copingstrategies.
Monica Meade (07:54):
Yes, that is correct.
Not often right.
Sometimes they've come fromprevious therapy and just need a
continuation of care, butoftentimes I do get them in the
heightened state of I have noidea what's happening.
I don't know what to do next, Idon't know where I'm at, like
this just happened.
Jim Cunningham (08:13):
Yeah, if there was a stage kind of going back
to the stages, if there was astage that people get stuck in.
Was there a stage you got stuckin and does?
Monica Meade (08:21):
it tend to be the same stage, whether that's
denial or anger or I don't thinkthere's a stage, that is a
specific one, that people getstuck in.
I will say, though, I do seemore probably gender related
than across the board.
So I see men tend to get morestuck in anger and women tend to
(08:43):
get more stuck in denial or thewoulda, shoulda, couldas, the
guilt.
Jim Cunningham (08:46):
Does it matter what stage they're in in terms
of what they need for coping?
No, okay.
Monica Meade (08:54):
Not at all.
Nope, milestones, markers, Iguess.
But they fluctuate so quicklyand you go through them in and
out of them very rapidly,thought by thought, oftentimes,
I mean yes, there is plenty oftimes that it's over a period of
(09:15):
time, but for the most partit's very rapid.
Jim Cunningham (09:20):
Okay, so what do you?
I guess the big question is issomebody comes in they're
demonstrating these symptoms.
Monica Meade (09:36):
Where do you start to address this?
Start with tell me about yourperson, tell me everything about
them, because first of all,that isn't asked.
A lot People just address thesymptomology, but not tell me
your story, tell me why you missthem, tell me all the good
things, tell me all the badthings.
I want to know them through youand that's often where I start
(09:59):
is like share your person withme, tell me what I need to know
so I know who they are, and thatjust that alone breaks the
initial barrier of like I couldtalk about this person and I
haven't been asked to talk aboutthis person ever, probably, or
in a long time and they need aplace where they can open up,
(10:23):
share their feelings, be veryvulnerable and not be told
that's enough, or someone getuncomfortable with it, and I
think that's the number onething that I hear is I have no
one else to talk to about thisbecause they're uncomfortable or
because they don't want to talkabout this.
Jim Cunningham (10:41):
Do you find that that question I mean, that's a
big question.
To start with, tell me aboutyour person that you don't have,
I would think.
Is that like where you leadwith on the first session?
Oh no, because it's wrong right, I mean to ask them to kind of.
I would just think that wouldbe very hard for someone.
Monica Meade (11:00):
Sure.
So obviously we do intake andget to know the client first
what do I need to know about youto treat you?
And as soon as there's loss,that's when I always say, okay,
just tell me about your person,tell me about who they were,
what they like.
And the reason I start that,jim, is because the very end,
(11:20):
the goal that I get to with myclients, is what I call the
collateral beauty, and so that'swhere I do therapy.
A little bit different withgrief counseling is that we
don't just work through thesymptoms and we don't just try
to fix or band-aid the symptoms.
There's an outcome on the otherend of growth.
It's also been.
(11:40):
I think David Kessler is theone.
He's also a grief guru, really.
He came up with post-traumaticgrowth and so mine's very
similar, but I just call itcollateral beauty.
And what collateral beauty is isyou didn't choose to have this
happen to you.
You didn't choose this loss.
This was without yourpermission.
(12:01):
It was unexpected a lot oftimes, and yet you're stuck here
and you're thrust into this.
So what can you take from yourperson that you lost, that you
loved, and carry that on intoyour life, so they live on with
you.
That's the collateral beauty ofit.
You didn't choose to be here,but you can find something in it
that's beautiful and move onwith it, and I found that that
(12:25):
creates so much hope within myclients, especially when they
know that they can carry theirloved one on with them, that it
doesn't end when they leave myroom, it doesn't end when they
bury their loved one, butthere's a part of them that
lives on forever.
Jim Cunningham (12:41):
Yeah, it's still hard to talk about even the
process.
Monica Meade (12:43):
It'll always be hard to talk about.
Jim Cunningham (12:45):
Yeah.
Monica Meade (12:47):
And it should be.
Jim Cunningham (12:48):
Yeah, you know.
So I guess when people think ofI fixed the problem, sure,
which means maybe that means Idon't feel like I need to get
emotional anymore and I'm justgood with it, but that's, that's
not the goal.
Monica Meade (13:03):
Oh no, not at all.
Jim Cunningham (13:04):
Yeah, what?
How would you describe the goal?
Monica Meade (13:06):
Um, I think the goal is you're able to express
your love for the person, you'reable to continue on with your
life not move on, but moveforward with them, right, still
carrying them, but in adifferent way and when you can
understand that and you canacknowledge it and really live
(13:31):
that way.
That's the goal, okay.
Jim Cunningham (13:34):
I've heard some people say that the first step
is for them to acknowledge theperson is gone.
Monica Meade (13:39):
I'm not an expert in this area, oh, absolutely.
Jim Cunningham (13:41):
Would you agree with that Accept?
Monica Meade (13:44):
it Like accept that they're gone, accept
they're not coming back?
Sure, but I think when theycome into my office they've
already reached that point Right.
When they come in for grieftherapy or grief counseling,
they've already accepted theyneed the therapy because of the
law room stays pristine the wayit was, you know, for years.
Jim Cunningham (14:21):
Would you consider that a good strategy to
remember them, or does thatkeep you stuck?
Monica Meade (14:23):
You know, I think everybody's different.
I think that that's your owntimeline.
I think, like anything, it's afine line.
Right After my daughter died ittook me a very long time to.
We moved several houses andevery time she had a room set up
and it wasn't until 2021 thatshe no longer had a room set up
(14:49):
and it was out of necessity thatI had to not set up her room.
So, you know, I didn't think ofit as, but I also thought of it
and I didn't consider it amuseum for her.
It was just a place that Icould go to and feel her, feel
her energy be with her in thatmoment, and I didn't feel like
(15:11):
that was a negative thing.
It was just my last connectionto her, physical connection,
sure connection, sure, sure.
Jim Cunningham (15:19):
So if there was, um, getting away from the
stages of grief but the stagesof healing, what would you say
is kind of a process that peoplekind of that, you kind of guide
people through, to get throughthat first normalizing it.
Monica Meade (15:36):
I think that grief needs to be normalized in the
sense of all of people come inand the first thing they say is
my mom died last year and Ialready know I should be over it
.
And that always shocks me.
I'm like it's been a year, onlybeen a year.
You don't have to put atimeline around it.
This is your mother, this isyour brother, this is you know.
(15:57):
They played a large role inyour life.
You're not supposed to be overit.
So I think normalizing it firstis the most important step,
that what you're feeling is okay, because when there's shame,
there too, in that space,there's no healing can get done.
Jim Cunningham (16:11):
Yeah, what comes after that?
Monica Meade (16:19):
So normalizing it and getting comfortable with
talking about it, probably.
Second, I always hear and Isaid this before that people
will say, like my friends areuncomfortable, they stopped
calling me, they stopped comingby, and I hear this most with
child loss.
It's almost as if it'scontagious.
But I don't think that that'swhat people are thinking.
I think people are unsure ofwhat to do.
(16:41):
They're unsure of how tosupport you, and I also think
that a lot of times our friendsor our loved ones, our family
members, think if I bring thisup, I'm going to make them sad.
They forget that we're alwaysthinking about it.
You bringing it up is onlygoing to show me I'm not alone
in my thoughts.
(17:02):
Someone else is also there, andso also you know, as human
beings we need that connection.
Yeah, and so when you cannormalize it and create a social
network for these people, for,you know, for when you you're
grieving, that also helps in thehealing of stages of grief okay
, so, um, I think I think thisis true of a lot of other mental
(17:25):
health issues, right, and thepeople tend to isolate.
Jim Cunningham (17:29):
Yes, and so I would.
I would think that you know, ifyou've lost your spouse of you
know, 30 years, sure the firstthing you want to do is just
hole up, circle the wagons andjust sit.
I don't know, you don't losemotivation.
I think there's a lot of thingsthat could probably go along
with that.
Monica Meade (17:48):
Oh, absolutely yes , the isolation is a big part,
and I think it's.
I don't think it's alwaysdetrimental, because I think
you'll I'll speak for myselfonly that when I isolated, I was
trying to survive, right.
So I didn't have the capacityto even talk, even have words to
(18:12):
say.
I just didn't, and so the bestthing for me at that point was
just stay home, think aboutthese things, cry when I wanted
to.
I just didn't, and so the bestthing for me at that point was
just stay home, think aboutthese things, cry when I wanted
to.
I don't want people to see mebreak down all the time, you
know.
So isolation was kind of anatural part of it, but it's not
for everybody.
Some people find comfort beingaround, others being distracted.
Jim Cunningham (18:31):
Yeah, and I guess all those are good tools.
We just have to be careful notto overuse.
Monica Meade (18:36):
Exactly, especially distraction, right
Burying it, pushing it down.
It doesn't go away, it justwaits for it, and I think that's
the part of grief that has beenunknown for so long is that
grief waits for us.
It doesn't go away on its own.
On its own, and we also knowthis because of the ACE study
(18:59):
the adverse childhood experiencestudy that was done that shows
that unprocessed grief can leadto heart disease, autoimmune
disease and cancer, and sothat's why it's important to
heal from those things, healfrom it, address it
appropriately and rid our bodyof it.
As we know, emotions are storedin our body as energy, and
negative energy is negative.
Jim Cunningham (19:22):
In terms of, like you said, everybody's a
little bit different.
Do you notice a differencebetween adults, children, older
folks?
You said men and women?
There's some distinctions there.
Try to have a deal with it.
Monica Meade (19:35):
Sure, yes, you know the saying of children are
resilient.
While I think that's true, Ithink children are also better
at distracting themselves, arebetter at escaping in their mind
.
When you think about it, itmakes sense.
They don't have the tools todrive to get away, so they have
to learn to escape things intheir mind.
(19:55):
Grief is no different.
You learn to escape things intheir mind.
Grief is no different.
You learn to escape it in yourmind.
So a lot of times if I seechildren who have either lost a
parent, a sibling and I don'tsee children under the age of 13
, but if I do see a 13-year-oldor see children that are younger
, that is often they can bedistracted in it.
So it seems as though they'reresilient, it seems as though
(20:17):
they've recovered.
It seems as very they can bedistracted in it.
So it seems as though they'reresilient, it seems as though
they've recovered.
It seems as though they canmove on.
But an interesting thing thatI've noticed, jim, is that if a
child experiences the trauma,the death, the loss prior to
puberty, at puberty and after iswhere we see the more
expression of that grief comeout.
So it's almost as if they don'thave control over the
(20:37):
distraction of it, the pushingit down, the running from it,
and it does present itself atthat time.
So that's another way I'll getclients in is if they've lost
somebody close to them.
Prepubescent and then, afterpuberty, these emotions are
emerging, and then the parentsbring them in.
Jim Cunningham (20:56):
They're depressed, they're anxious,
they're angry, they're this butthey don't acknowledge that it
could be from the death prior.
Sure, how much is the?
You know I have a lot ofclients that beat themselves up.
Monica Meade (21:10):
Oh, the guilt.
Jim Cunningham (21:11):
The guilt, whether that's I guess there's
various kinds right, Survivorguilt, or the woulda, shoulda,
coulda.
I should have done something, Ishould have seen it, I should
have been able to help.
Yes, yeah.
Monica Meade (21:21):
Oh my gosh, I hear that all the time.
Jim Cunningham (21:24):
Yeah.
Monica Meade (21:24):
And, you know, one of the things I try to bring to
the awareness is that whenyou're healing from grief,
that's the only time you thinkyou have more power than you do
when you look back, like 2020,um called retrospect.
Jim Cunningham (21:43):
Retrospect yeah.
Monica Meade (21:46):
When you look back at it is when there's, all of a
sudden, you have this likesense of like I could have done
something.
But the fact of the matter is,if we could have, we would have,
and so we couldn't have known.
We didn't know.
Jim Cunningham (22:00):
So trying to give ourselves some grace.
Monica Meade (22:02):
Absolutely.
Jim Cunningham (22:03):
Yeah, not an easy thing to do.
Monica Meade (22:05):
Especially when you've told yourself that story
for so long.
Jim Cunningham (22:08):
Yeah, and somebody once said you know,
when you practice something for20 years, you get pretty good at
it.
Monica Meade (22:12):
Very good.
Jim Cunningham (22:12):
Even if it's bad thinking.
Monica Meade (22:14):
Oh, absolutely.
Jim Cunningham (22:24):
Yeah, Even if it's bad thinking.
Oh, absolutely yeah.
And so I guess the other partyou know, because I had
mentioned, or I kind of led intothe what are the stages for
doing that, and I heard youspeak one time talking about not
forgetting these folks, but youknow, in a lot of ways, how do
we remember them, honor them?
Sure, and that means not likejust hiding it, Exactly.
So what were some of theexamples that you give to people
and like here's some things youcan do to kind of work through
(22:45):
this trauma?
Monica Meade (22:47):
Yes.
So that's why I always ask themtell me about your person,
because I want to know whattheir qualities were that my
client found endearing oradmirable.
And then we work with thosequalities, not just to instill
them in my client but tocontinue that on with someone
(23:07):
else.
So some of those examples wouldbe, for example, my daughter
was very forgiving, she was themost forgiving person.
She would be the first personto say I'm sorry.
She'd be the first person to,you know, offer the olive branch
.
She was just that way.
That was her personality always,and um, so in her honor, every
(23:28):
year we ask people to perform anact of forgiveness on her
behalf, something that's beendifficult for okay.
So so for my daughteriana, itwas an act of forgiveness.
I also lost my niece two yearsafter my daughter died, and the
(23:49):
way that we carry on her memoryis we have a slogan called Live
Every Day.
Her name is Olivia, and so weembrace that by saying you know,
take advantage of the day, takeadvantage that you're given
this day, live every day to itsfullest and show up in places
with happiness, with love, withjoy.
Jim Cunningham (24:07):
Yeah, which gives a lot of meaning to the
person's life.
Monica Meade (24:10):
Exactly, oh, absolutely.
Jim Cunningham (24:12):
Yeah.
Monica Meade (24:12):
Some other things that I think are beneficial.
In that way, the collateralbeauty or the carrying on their
memory, is doing something intheir honor.
It sounds very counterintuitive, but when you're in the depths
of your grief, in the depths ofyour sadness, and it's the most
difficult day to get out of bed,what has helped me is doing
something for somebody elseanonymously, thing for somebody
(24:40):
else anonymously.
So I'll go to Starbucks andI'll buy my daughter's favorite
drink was the caramelfrappuccino and I'll just give
him a gift card and be likewhoever orders the caramel
frappuccino.
Until this runs out, please usethis to pay for it and then
just say like it's from Kiana.
Another thing we've done is goneto memory care facility.
My daughter's birthday wasFebruary 15th, the day after
Valentine's Day.
So on her birthday it's the dayafter Valentine's Day, so the
(25:02):
Valentine's candy is 50% off.
So I'll go to Walmart and buythe entire case that they have
left of the candy hearts thelittle small ones that maybe
have like eight candy chocolatesin there and I'll take them to
the memory care facility withValentine's Day cards and we
hand them out to people whohaven't gotten visitors.
Yeah, and that keeps her aliveas well.
Jim Cunningham (25:21):
Okay, yeah, and that's I mean.
So that's kind of in a lot ofways, almost a year round, oh
yes, just coming to variouspoints, it's not just the
anniversary date of when youlost them or Correct so yeah.
Monica Meade (25:34):
And it's always, if I so yeah lessened.
It's still just as deep and asbig of a hole as it will always
be, but over time I'm able toaddress it differently.
(26:09):
And so if I have a very, veryhard day, I know that I'm inside
of myself, and to heal that Ihave to get outside of myself,
and that's where I go and dosomething for somebody else and
for whatever reason, it works.
Jim Cunningham (26:19):
What would you say if there was one bit of
advice to give somebody who haslost someone?
What is like that key thing.
That's like man.
Monica Meade (26:29):
I wish somebody would have told me that that
when you start feeling better,it's okay, it's okay, it's okay
to laugh again.
That was hard for me to notfeel guilty when I started
(26:51):
feeling happiness again, and Ithink if that would have been
normalized for me, I would haveaccepted it instead of rejecting
it and trying to be thinkingthat I wouldn't remember my
daughter if I wasn't sad.
Jim Cunningham (27:07):
Yeah, do you still struggle with that?
Monica Meade (27:10):
Oh, absolutely.
I think there'll always be apart of me.
That's sad.
Jim Cunningham (27:16):
Sure.
Monica Meade (27:17):
Even in my happiest moments, no matter what
they are, I could be laughingso hard in there.
I'll remember in the gut of whoI am that I'll never be that
happy again.
Jim Cunningham (27:26):
Sure, that's good If someone is looking for
help and they're looking for atherapist.
What's the red flag that theyshould find another therapist?
What's the red flag that theyshould find another?
Monica Meade (27:39):
thing.
Well for grief, I would say ifthey dismiss your feelings,
first of all right away.
If they dismiss what you arefeeling or they want you to move
on from it, or they want you tolet it go.
Okay.
Jim Cunningham (27:55):
Because you can feel it and not stay in it.
Monica Meade (27:56):
Sure Okay, so just acknowledging it.
Jim Cunningham (27:58):
This is an interesting question, but what
have, what have clients taughtyou?
Oh my gosh so much.
Monica Meade (28:06):
So if we're just sticking to grief, what have
they taught me?
Yeah, like I said, the thingthat was difficult for me was
the happiness piece, that it'sokay to be happy again.
So while when I see that in myclients and I see the way that
they experience joy in theirlife and experience the hope and
(28:28):
move forward, that has taughtme a different way to do it.
I've also think that learningfrom them, learning that grief
is so different amongsteverybody in the way that it's
expressed, but not in the waythat it's felt.
It's always felt fully, in thesense of not just a physical,
(28:50):
emotional pain, but all overbody.
And that was something I thinkmy own grief taught me.
But then, seeing it in otherpeople, I realized, oh, this is
universal, this is a universalpain.
Jim Cunningham (29:03):
What tends to keep people stuck.
You know they can't move on.
Monica Meade (29:08):
I think people stay stuck when they identify
with their pain, identify withtheir grief, and don't know who
they are without it.
Identify with their grief anddon't know who they are without
it.
So I think they cling to thatmore so than somebody who is not
identifying, and not I don'tmean as a victim necessarily.
(29:30):
I think that's part of it, butI don't think that's all of it.
I think when you're expected tobe a certain way and people see
you differently, they treat youdifferently, and so some people
have difficulty letting go ofthat because they don't want to
be treated any differently.
Jim Cunningham (29:45):
So in a lot of ways and I think this is
probably true of, again, anxiety, depression, other things when
people come in, what they'rereally looking for is a change
of identity in a lot of ways,instead of just trying to play
whack-a-mole with the symptoms.
it's like I want to become kindof a new person and redefining
myself.
If I lose a spouse, whetherthat's through death, divorce,
(30:06):
whatever there's a period whereyou're going to have to do some
soul searching and find out whothe new person is without this
person.
Oh, absolutely, you know whothe new person is without this
person.
Monica Meade (30:17):
Oh, absolutely.
Jim Cunningham (30:19):
Historically, over human, like, um, human
history, there haven't beencounselors.
No, so people have had to, andI think this, you know this.
I say this because back thenthey had to rely on other people
, community and families.
And families live close to eachother and now we are so
(30:41):
isolated from who lives in their, their family of origin.
Monica Meade (30:45):
Exactly.
Jim Cunningham (30:45):
And so where do people?
I mean?
I guess this, I say, let's sayit probably just compounds this
grieving process, becausethere's that saying it takes a
village to raise a child right.
Monica Meade (30:58):
It takes a village for a reason.
We need other people to show up.
We're built for connection ashuman beings.
We know that because we havemirror neurons.
We know that because that's howwe were created.
Us came in counselors right,and there's plenty of villages
(31:24):
of communities of cultures thatdon't have counselors.
Jim Cunningham (31:26):
They're not needed.
Yeah, much more traditional?
Yeah, yeah, so you'resuggesting tiktok isn't probably
the answer to find?
Connection, tiktok's always theanswer well, so what are the
statistics when you think aboutum the different, different
types of grief people go through.
What are some of thosestatistics?
Monica Meade (31:43):
So one of the ones that stands out the most to me
and it is true for my own storyas well is that losing a child
so the loss of a child, 73% ofthe time will end will also
result in the loss of a marriage, and 95% if one of the parents
is responsible.
So we are, when you think aboutthat and you think about
(32:05):
divorce rates, anywhere about50%.
Adding on the loss of a childincreases that to 73%, 95% if
one parent is responsible.
And you know, I think it comesdown to more than just we grieve
differently.
We don't understand each other.
What I think it comes down to,jim, is that you are stripped of
everything you were and youbecome someone new.
(32:27):
Now you have to learn to fallin love with someone new.
Right, the person that youmarried, the person that you
have fallen in love with,they're gone.
Jim Cunningham (32:41):
There's maybe glimpses of them in there, but
that's not who they are.
So 73% of people who lose achild end up getting a divorce.
Monica Meade (32:48):
Within five years.
Jim Cunningham (32:49):
Within five years, and that's without either
parent being directlyresponsible.
So the kid dies in a car wreckor something.
Monica Meade (32:55):
Yes, exactly, and then 95% if one of the parents
is responsible, even by accident.
Jim Cunningham (33:02):
Certainly Is that because and like you said,
going back to the identity isthat because that loss makes
people change that drasticallythat they don't connect anymore?
Or because you would think in amarriage that we lost a child,
the spouses would be.
That would be their biggestsource of strength.
Monica Meade (33:20):
Sure.
Jim Cunningham (33:21):
And maybe it doesn't.
Monica Meade (33:24):
I want you to think about a forest fire.
And if you look at the mountain, if you look at Pike's Peak, if
you look at or we had the WaldoCanyon fire you can still see
the scars of the burn.
Right, the burn scars are stillthere.
So if you compare grief to aforest fire, a person to the
mountain this is always how Idescribe it for my clients you
(33:45):
look at that mountain prior tothe forest fire.
It's beautiful.
You see the trees growing,flowers are blooming.
The forest fire comes in andtakes everything.
All vegetation is lost, it'sdestroyed, it's nothing.
The shell of it looks similar.
Right, the landscape is a bitdifferent, but the shell looks
similar.
Everything has to regrow and itdoesn't regrow the same way,
(34:05):
because that burn created spacefor new growth, different growth
, things that didn't see the sunbefore now do, and so those
parts grow.
First.
It looks beautiful again, butit's not the same.
And that's exactly what griefdoes to you.
It strips you down to the barenothing, nothing.
And you have to pick and choosewhat you want to shine, where
(34:27):
you want the growth to be.
Jim Cunningham (34:28):
Okay, so in a lot of ways it's opportunity.
Absolutely yeah, if you can seeit that way.
Monica Meade (34:34):
That's where the collateral beauty comes in,
right Of, I didn't choose thisforest fire.
What am I?
Jim Cunningham (34:41):
going to grow now?
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, Iguess, just to explore that
just a slight bit more.
How do you go from that pointof reinventing that and figuring
out what I want to?
We don't need to be togetheranymore like a divorce.
Monica Meade (34:57):
Sure, yeah, I think you recognize what matters
and what doesn't.
And if the other person yourspouse doesn't see it the same
way, you're very different.
I think I am a very differentperson than I was 10 years ago.
Very different the things thatmattered to me 10 years ago I
(35:18):
don't even think about now, 10years ago.
Very different the things thatmatter to me 10 years ago I
don't even think about now.
Not just because of age andmaturity, but because I know now
the importance of love, ofconnection, of family and the
knowledge that in an instant youcan lose everything, everything
that's important to you gone.
So you value what is importantto you and you don't worry about
the small stuff anymore.
(35:39):
But if your partner is not onthat same um belief or they
still value some of the thingsyou don't anymore, you're very
different.
Jim Cunningham (35:47):
You're not going to connect on the same things
yeah, I guess you know to thinkthrough a little bit further too
.
If there's any chinks in themarriage, this is going to
highlight that oh, absolutelyright this is going to if we
aren't solid.
It's kind of like a couplethat's having problems and they
decide to have a child bringthem together to fix it.
Yeah, doesn't work have a baby.
(36:08):
That's a lot, but I mean it goesboth ways right.
If we lose somebody, they couldbring out the same, they could
expose the same weaknesses.
Monica Meade (36:16):
The magnification of it.
Absolutely.
I think yes, that is a big partof it.
I you know, jim I keep goingback to that same thing that you
just are changed so drasticallythat you have to learn to love
the other person as they are atthat point, and sometimes love
isn't enough in that.
Jim Cunningham (36:35):
Yeah.
Monica Meade (36:36):
That's the other part is healing is scary.
Like you start unraveling itand you realize it's not one
inch deep.
It is through the core of youlike an onion, right like you
pull out the first layer, secondlayer we've been taught that
since day one of school.
But yeah, that's absolutelyright and the thought of the
(36:57):
unknown can keep you stuck.
What is going to happen outsideof this?
How do I heal from this?
What am I going to be likeafter?
How is this going to affect me?
What if this uncovers somethingelse?
Jim Cunningham (37:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Monica Meade (37:09):
And where they can contain what they know right,
the familiar.
Jim Cunningham (37:15):
Well, and this is a scary thing too right when
you ask people to startunpacking emotions.
It's kind of like Pandora's box.
I scary thing too right when,when you ask people to start
unpacking emotions right, it'slike.
It's kind of like Pandora's box.
You know, I opened that box.
I may not be able to get itback in the box once it gets out
, which is a scary thing.
Scary thing for people andfeeling out of control.
Monica Meade (37:30):
Oh yeah.
Jim Cunningham (37:31):
Yeah.
So if you're going to wrap thisup and say, okay, here's three
big takeaways you would likepeople to take away, what would
that be?
To kind of summarize?
Monica Meade (37:38):
takeaways you would like people to take away.
What would that be?
To kind of summarize, I wouldsay if you're grieving and you
don't have a support system, youdon't have people that'll show
up, that'll listen, that'll hearit and aren't uncomfortable
with it.
Find somebody who will, whetherthat be a therapist, a priest,
a pastor, whoever it is.
Find someone who will, becausewe're not meant to walk through
(37:59):
this alone.
We're just not.
Number two I would say thatit's okay to be happy again,
it's okay to love, it's okay tolaugh, it's okay.
And then it's also okay tostill be sad in those moments.
Don't beat yourself up aboutthat.
Number three, I think the lastthing I would say is that just
(38:27):
normalizing that you're alwaysgoing to feel that loss and
that's okay.
You're always going to feel itat some, to some extent, and
just being okay with that, Ithink, is important too, and to
always choose love.
We don't have a choice in a lotof things, but love keeps us
close to our loved ones.
It keeps us there's less regretthere when we make the choice
(38:49):
with love.
Jim Cunningham (38:49):
Well, I appreciate you taking the time
and sitting down.
Monica Meade (38:52):
Oh my gosh, thank you for asking me.
Jim Cunningham (38:54):
Yeah, I think this could be very helpful for a
lot of people.
Monica Meade (38:56):
Thanks, Jim.
Jim Cunningham (38:58):
Thanks for checking us out today on the
Unscripted Mind.
If you found this episodehelpful, please subscribe,
follow us to get notified whennew episodes are released, and
also leave a review.
If you have any questions ortopics you'd like us to cover,
please include those also.
Until next time, remember lifedoesn't come with a script, so
embrace the unexpected, cherishthe unplanned, always stay
(39:19):
curious and have an amazing day.
We'll see you next time on theUnscripted Mind.
Welcome to the Unscripted Mind Podcast, where
our goal is to give you freshperspectives, practical insights
and tools you can use to giveyou more choices, increase your
awareness and have bettercontrol of your feelings,
reactions and behaviors.
My name is Jim Cunningham, I'ma licensed professional
counselor and today we're goingto discuss grief and loss.
This is something that none ofus is immune to.
(00:23):
We will all lose someone orsomething we love at some point.
When that happens, it changesour lives and often forces us to
change ourselves.
Grief is a powerful and complexemotion that can leave us
feeling lost, overwhelmed andunsure of how to move forward.
But with the right guidance andsupport, it's possible to
(00:44):
navigate this challengingjourney and find a path to
healing.
Grief is like the ocean itcomes on waves, ebbing and
flowing.
Sometimes the water is calm,sometimes it's overwhelming, and
all we can do is learn to swim,says Vicki Harrison.
Recently, I sat down with MonicaMead, a colleague of mine and a
(01:04):
licensed professional counselor, for a frank and open
discussion on how to handlelosses in our lives.
Monica has extensive experiencein grief and loss therapy.
That began with the loss of herown daughter over a decade ago.
Monica has since dedicated hercareer to helping others process
their grief, finding meaningafter loss and rebuilding their
(01:24):
lives.
She has an empathetic approachand profound understanding of
grief and may challenge the waysyou think about grief and how
to handle that.
We'll discuss what grief is andwhat it isn't, how to process
that grief and some practicaltools you can use to help
yourself or someone you careabout.
Whether you're navigating yourown grief or supporting a loved
(01:46):
one, this conversation is oneyou won't want to miss.
On this episode of theUnscripted Mind.
Lots of places to start withgrief and loss.
So how did you even begin toget into dealing with that with
clients?
Monica Meade (02:06):
Sure For me, jim.
It was born out of necessity.
I experienced my own griefjourney in 2013 when, I lost my
daughter unexpectedly in a verytraumatic way, and searching out
a therapist that understoodwhat I was going through and was
able to help me was moredifficult than I could have
(02:27):
imagined.
I sought people outspecifically that claimed to
specialize in grief, and therewas plenty of times that I felt
dismissed, that I felt like Ishould be in a different place
than I was.
I should be further along in adifferent place than I was.
I should be further along.
Now, mind you, this was monthsafter the death, so I don't
(02:48):
think that that was appropriate,and I realized there was just a
need for somebody whounderstood the depths of grief
and also the journey in whichyou walk and how it's lifelong
and how complex it is.
Jim Cunningham (03:07):
So in your experience, not a lot of people
were doing what you do.
Monica Meade (03:12):
Oh, absolutely not , and what I found actually was
more the textbook journeythrough grief.
They wanted to talk about thefive stages and they thought
they were very linear.
Once you go through denial,then there's anger, but that's
not what I was experiencing atall.
So, instead of feeling therelief from therapy, I felt bad
about where I was and I didn'tfeel that I was on a healing
(03:38):
journey.
Jim Cunningham (03:38):
Okay.
Monica Meade (03:40):
And I didn't feel understood.
Jim Cunningham (03:41):
Sure, where do you think most people get it
wrong?
And I didn't feel understood.
Monica Meade (03:43):
Sure, where do you think most people get it wrong.
I think most people get itwrong with expectations.
I think there's expectationssocietal, cultural, all kinds of
expectations about where youshould be on the grief journey
and what you should be feeling,and I think that's where I was
(04:07):
failed.
And you know, these people thatI saw were absolutely wonderful
in other areas of therapy, butthis just wasn't where I think
that they should havespecialized in.
Jim Cunningham (04:18):
Yeah, for sure.
How would you define grief?
Ah, just go back to the basics.
Monica Meade (04:25):
Sure, so a loss.
Obviously it's the symptomology, I think, of a large loss you
experience.
So it could be grief can alsoexist in losing a job, losing a
pet, losing a relationship.
Jim Cunningham (04:42):
It doesn't just mean death, yeah.
So, for example, I see clientswho have had physical injuries
and they're not able to competeanymore.
They aren't able to do whatthey used to, and you would
categorize that as grief andloss also.
Monica Meade (04:55):
Yes, if they are experiencing the symptoms of
grief that are accompanying alsothis loss of being able to do
what they had thought they coulddo, sure.
Jim Cunningham (05:05):
What would you say?
Those symptoms are whensomebody walks in.
Monica Meade (05:07):
You're like oh, that's grief right there, okay.
So generally when I get peoplein for grief, they know that
they're coming in to see me forgrief.
But there has been times that Isay to them I think you're
experiencing grief with this,and what that has been is not
generally with a death, but withthe loss of a job, the loss of
(05:28):
a limb, the loss of a futurethey had planned that didn't
come to fruition, and so what?
Those symptoms that I look for,that I notice would be very
similar to depression in thesense of sadness, in the sense
of asking the questions why thewoulda, shoulda, couldas, all of
those things, reliving it overand over in a circular fashion
(05:52):
without an exit point.
Jim Cunningham (05:55):
Okay, so kind of getting stuck.
Monica Meade (05:56):
Exactly.
Jim Cunningham (05:57):
This would include, I just think of all the
other things like retirement,yes, and things that people
wouldn't normally associate asgrief.
Monica Meade (06:06):
Sure, and I don't think we talk about that enough
how a big change in your life is, can be, can affect you in the
way that grief would.
Jim Cunningham (06:16):
Yeah, so you mentioned the stages of grief.
Monica Meade (06:22):
Sure.
Jim Cunningham (06:24):
What are those and how do you apply those, or
do they even have any relevancewhatsoever anymore?
Monica Meade (06:30):
Sure, you know, jim, I'm probably the worst
counselor therapist to ask thisto that specializes in grief,
because I don't buy into them.
Okay, because.
So in 1979, it was ElizabethKubler-Ross that came out with
these five stages of grief andwhat they were, where she
gathered the information to comeup with it from was hospice
(06:53):
patients.
So she was working with thesepatients in hospice end of life
care and had developed, hadrecognized OK, there's five
different stages that thesepeople are going through.
Recognized okay, there's fivedifferent stages that these
people are going through.
She didn't study their lovedones after the loss but only
them at the end of their life.
So it's end of the life loss.
And so then at that point it'seasy to see why it's linear, why
(07:15):
you start at one point and youend at another point, and while
that's still very related togrief, it's not linear.
When you experience grief, it'snot a linear moving comfortably
from one stage to the next.
Instead, it's very chaotic, andyou may stay in denial much
longer than even yourcounterpart.
(07:35):
You may stay in one stage for avery short time.
You may never even visit thatstage.
So, I don't buy into that.
Jim Cunningham (07:47):
So there are.
I assume by the time mostpeople come to see you they're
not using healthy copingstrategies.
Monica Meade (07:54):
Yes, that is correct.
Not often right.
Sometimes they've come fromprevious therapy and just need a
continuation of care, butoftentimes I do get them in the
heightened state of I have noidea what's happening.
I don't know what to do next, Idon't know where I'm at, like
this just happened.
Jim Cunningham (08:13):
Yeah, if there was a stage kind of going back
to the stages, if there was astage that people get stuck in.
Was there a stage you got stuckin and does?
Monica Meade (08:21):
it tend to be the same stage, whether that's
denial or anger or I don't thinkthere's a stage, that is a
specific one, that people getstuck in.
I will say, though, I do seemore probably gender related
than across the board.
So I see men tend to get morestuck in anger and women tend to
(08:43):
get more stuck in denial or thewoulda, shoulda, couldas, the
guilt.
Jim Cunningham (08:46):
Does it matter what stage they're in in terms
of what they need for coping?
No, okay.
Monica Meade (08:54):
Not at all.
Nope, milestones, markers, Iguess.
But they fluctuate so quicklyand you go through them in and
out of them very rapidly,thought by thought, oftentimes,
I mean yes, there is plenty oftimes that it's over a period of
(09:15):
time, but for the most partit's very rapid.
Jim Cunningham (09:20):
Okay, so what do you?
I guess the big question is issomebody comes in they're
demonstrating these symptoms.
Monica Meade (09:36):
Where do you start to address this?
Start with tell me about yourperson, tell me everything about
them, because first of all,that isn't asked.
A lot People just address thesymptomology, but not tell me
your story, tell me why you missthem, tell me all the good
things, tell me all the badthings.
I want to know them through youand that's often where I start
(09:59):
is like share your person withme, tell me what I need to know
so I know who they are, and thatjust that alone breaks the
initial barrier of like I couldtalk about this person and I
haven't been asked to talk aboutthis person ever, probably, or
in a long time and they need aplace where they can open up,
(10:23):
share their feelings, be veryvulnerable and not be told
that's enough, or someone getuncomfortable with it, and I
think that's the number onething that I hear is I have no
one else to talk to about thisbecause they're uncomfortable or
because they don't want to talkabout this.
Jim Cunningham (10:41):
Do you find that that question I mean, that's a
big question.
To start with, tell me aboutyour person that you don't have,
I would think.
Is that like where you leadwith on the first session?
Oh no, because it's wrong right, I mean to ask them to kind of.
I would just think that wouldbe very hard for someone.
Monica Meade (11:00):
Sure.
So obviously we do intake andget to know the client first
what do I need to know about youto treat you?
And as soon as there's loss,that's when I always say, okay,
just tell me about your person,tell me about who they were,
what they like.
And the reason I start that,jim, is because the very end,
(11:20):
the goal that I get to with myclients, is what I call the
collateral beauty, and so that'swhere I do therapy.
A little bit different withgrief counseling is that we
don't just work through thesymptoms and we don't just try
to fix or band-aid the symptoms.
There's an outcome on the otherend of growth.
It's also been.
(11:40):
I think David Kessler is theone.
He's also a grief guru, really.
He came up with post-traumaticgrowth and so mine's very
similar, but I just call itcollateral beauty.
And what collateral beauty is isyou didn't choose to have this
happen to you.
You didn't choose this loss.
This was without yourpermission.
(12:01):
It was unexpected a lot oftimes, and yet you're stuck here
and you're thrust into this.
So what can you take from yourperson that you lost, that you
loved, and carry that on intoyour life, so they live on with
you.
That's the collateral beauty ofit.
You didn't choose to be here,but you can find something in it
that's beautiful and move onwith it, and I found that that
(12:25):
creates so much hope within myclients, especially when they
know that they can carry theirloved one on with them, that it
doesn't end when they leave myroom, it doesn't end when they
bury their loved one, butthere's a part of them that
lives on forever.
Jim Cunningham (12:41):
Yeah, it's still hard to talk about even the
process.
Monica Meade (12:43):
It'll always be hard to talk about.
Jim Cunningham (12:45):
Yeah.
Monica Meade (12:47):
And it should be.
Jim Cunningham (12:48):
Yeah, you know.
So I guess when people think ofI fixed the problem, sure,
which means maybe that means Idon't feel like I need to get
emotional anymore and I'm justgood with it, but that's, that's
not the goal.
Monica Meade (13:03):
Oh no, not at all.
Jim Cunningham (13:04):
Yeah, what?
How would you describe the goal?
Monica Meade (13:06):
Um, I think the goal is you're able to express
your love for the person, you'reable to continue on with your
life not move on, but moveforward with them, right, still
carrying them, but in adifferent way and when you can
understand that and you canacknowledge it and really live
(13:31):
that way.
That's the goal, okay.
Jim Cunningham (13:34):
I've heard some people say that the first step
is for them to acknowledge theperson is gone.
Monica Meade (13:39):
I'm not an expert in this area, oh, absolutely.
Jim Cunningham (13:41):
Would you agree with that Accept?
Monica Meade (13:44):
it Like accept that they're gone, accept
they're not coming back?
Sure, but I think when theycome into my office they've
already reached that point Right.
When they come in for grieftherapy or grief counseling,
they've already accepted theyneed the therapy because of the
law room stays pristine the wayit was, you know, for years.
Jim Cunningham (14:21):
Would you consider that a good strategy to
remember them, or does thatkeep you stuck?
Monica Meade (14:23):
You know, I think everybody's different.
I think that that's your owntimeline.
I think, like anything, it's afine line.
Right After my daughter died ittook me a very long time to.
We moved several houses andevery time she had a room set up
and it wasn't until 2021 thatshe no longer had a room set up
(14:49):
and it was out of necessity thatI had to not set up her room.
So, you know, I didn't think ofit as, but I also thought of it
and I didn't consider it amuseum for her.
It was just a place that Icould go to and feel her, feel
her energy be with her in thatmoment, and I didn't feel like
(15:11):
that was a negative thing.
It was just my last connectionto her, physical connection,
sure connection, sure, sure.
Jim Cunningham (15:19):
So if there was, um, getting away from the
stages of grief but the stagesof healing, what would you say
is kind of a process that peoplekind of that, you kind of guide
people through, to get throughthat first normalizing it.
Monica Meade (15:36):
I think that grief needs to be normalized in the
sense of all of people come inand the first thing they say is
my mom died last year and Ialready know I should be over it
.
And that always shocks me.
I'm like it's been a year, onlybeen a year.
You don't have to put atimeline around it.
This is your mother, this isyour brother, this is you know.
(15:57):
They played a large role inyour life.
You're not supposed to be overit.
So I think normalizing it firstis the most important step,
that what you're feeling is okay, because when there's shame,
there too, in that space,there's no healing can get done.
Jim Cunningham (16:11):
Yeah, what comes after that?
Monica Meade (16:19):
So normalizing it and getting comfortable with
talking about it, probably.
Second, I always hear and Isaid this before that people
will say, like my friends areuncomfortable, they stopped
calling me, they stopped comingby, and I hear this most with
child loss.
It's almost as if it'scontagious.
But I don't think that that'swhat people are thinking.
I think people are unsure ofwhat to do.
(16:41):
They're unsure of how tosupport you, and I also think
that a lot of times our friendsor our loved ones, our family
members, think if I bring thisup, I'm going to make them sad.
They forget that we're alwaysthinking about it.
You bringing it up is onlygoing to show me I'm not alone
in my thoughts.
(17:02):
Someone else is also there, andso also you know, as human
beings we need that connection.
Yeah, and so when you cannormalize it and create a social
network for these people, for,you know, for when you you're
grieving, that also helps in thehealing of stages of grief okay
, so, um, I think I think thisis true of a lot of other mental
(17:25):
health issues, right, and thepeople tend to isolate.
Jim Cunningham (17:29):
Yes, and so I would.
I would think that you know, ifyou've lost your spouse of you
know, 30 years, sure the firstthing you want to do is just
hole up, circle the wagons andjust sit.
I don't know, you don't losemotivation.
I think there's a lot of thingsthat could probably go along
with that.
Monica Meade (17:48):
Oh, absolutely yes , the isolation is a big part,
and I think it's.
I don't think it's alwaysdetrimental, because I think
you'll I'll speak for myselfonly that when I isolated, I was
trying to survive, right.
So I didn't have the capacityto even talk, even have words to
(18:12):
say.
I just didn't, and so the bestthing for me at that point was
just stay home, think aboutthese things, cry when I wanted
to.
I just didn't, and so the bestthing for me at that point was
just stay home, think aboutthese things, cry when I wanted
to.
I don't want people to see mebreak down all the time, you
know.
So isolation was kind of anatural part of it, but it's not
for everybody.
Some people find comfort beingaround, others being distracted.
Jim Cunningham (18:31):
Yeah, and I guess all those are good tools.
We just have to be careful notto overuse.
Monica Meade (18:36):
Exactly, especially distraction, right
Burying it, pushing it down.
It doesn't go away, it justwaits for it, and I think that's
the part of grief that has beenunknown for so long is that
grief waits for us.
It doesn't go away on its own.
On its own, and we also knowthis because of the ACE study
(18:59):
the adverse childhood experiencestudy that was done that shows
that unprocessed grief can leadto heart disease, autoimmune
disease and cancer, and sothat's why it's important to
heal from those things, healfrom it, address it
appropriately and rid our bodyof it.
As we know, emotions are storedin our body as energy, and
negative energy is negative.
Jim Cunningham (19:22):
In terms of, like you said, everybody's a
little bit different.
Do you notice a differencebetween adults, children, older
folks?
You said men and women?
There's some distinctions there.
Try to have a deal with it.
Monica Meade (19:35):
Sure, yes, you know the saying of children are
resilient.
While I think that's true, Ithink children are also better
at distracting themselves, arebetter at escaping in their mind
.
When you think about it, itmakes sense.
They don't have the tools todrive to get away, so they have
to learn to escape things intheir mind.
(19:55):
Grief is no different.
You learn to escape things intheir mind.
Grief is no different.
You learn to escape it in yourmind.
So a lot of times if I seechildren who have either lost a
parent, a sibling and I don'tsee children under the age of 13
, but if I do see a 13-year-oldor see children that are younger
, that is often they can bedistracted in it.
So it seems as though they'reresilient, it seems as though
(20:17):
they've recovered.
It seems as very they can bedistracted in it.
So it seems as though they'reresilient, it seems as though
they've recovered.
It seems as though they canmove on.
But an interesting thing thatI've noticed, jim, is that if a
child experiences the trauma,the death, the loss prior to
puberty, at puberty and after iswhere we see the more
expression of that grief comeout.
So it's almost as if they don'thave control over the
(20:37):
distraction of it, the pushingit down, the running from it,
and it does present itself atthat time.
So that's another way I'll getclients in is if they've lost
somebody close to them.
Prepubescent and then, afterpuberty, these emotions are
emerging, and then the parentsbring them in.
Jim Cunningham (20:56):
They're depressed, they're anxious,
they're angry, they're this butthey don't acknowledge that it
could be from the death prior.
Sure, how much is the?
You know I have a lot ofclients that beat themselves up.
Monica Meade (21:10):
Oh, the guilt.
Jim Cunningham (21:11):
The guilt, whether that's I guess there's
various kinds right, Survivorguilt, or the woulda, shoulda,
coulda.
I should have done something, Ishould have seen it, I should
have been able to help.
Yes, yeah.
Monica Meade (21:21):
Oh my gosh, I hear that all the time.
Jim Cunningham (21:24):
Yeah.
Monica Meade (21:24):
And, you know, one of the things I try to bring to
the awareness is that whenyou're healing from grief,
that's the only time you thinkyou have more power than you do
when you look back, like 2020,um called retrospect.
Jim Cunningham (21:43):
Retrospect yeah.
Monica Meade (21:46):
When you look back at it is when there's, all of a
sudden, you have this likesense of like I could have done
something.
But the fact of the matter is,if we could have, we would have,
and so we couldn't have known.
We didn't know.
Jim Cunningham (22:00):
So trying to give ourselves some grace.
Monica Meade (22:02):
Absolutely.
Jim Cunningham (22:03):
Yeah, not an easy thing to do.
Monica Meade (22:05):
Especially when you've told yourself that story
for so long.
Jim Cunningham (22:08):
Yeah, and somebody once said you know,
when you practice something for20 years, you get pretty good at
it.
Monica Meade (22:12):
Very good.
Jim Cunningham (22:12):
Even if it's bad thinking.
Monica Meade (22:14):
Oh, absolutely.
Jim Cunningham (22:24):
Yeah, Even if it's bad thinking.
Oh, absolutely yeah.
And so I guess the other partyou know, because I had
mentioned, or I kind of led intothe what are the stages for
doing that, and I heard youspeak one time talking about not
forgetting these folks, but youknow, in a lot of ways, how do
we remember them, honor them?
Sure, and that means not likejust hiding it, Exactly.
So what were some of theexamples that you give to people
and like here's some things youcan do to kind of work through
(22:45):
this trauma?
Monica Meade (22:47):
Yes.
So that's why I always ask themtell me about your person,
because I want to know whattheir qualities were that my
client found endearing oradmirable.
And then we work with thosequalities, not just to instill
them in my client but tocontinue that on with someone
(23:07):
else.
So some of those examples wouldbe, for example, my daughter
was very forgiving, she was themost forgiving person.
She would be the first personto say I'm sorry.
She'd be the first person to,you know, offer the olive branch
.
She was just that way.
That was her personality always,and um, so in her honor, every
(23:28):
year we ask people to perform anact of forgiveness on her
behalf, something that's beendifficult for okay.
So so for my daughteriana, itwas an act of forgiveness.
I also lost my niece two yearsafter my daughter died, and the
(23:49):
way that we carry on her memoryis we have a slogan called Live
Every Day.
Her name is Olivia, and so weembrace that by saying you know,
take advantage of the day, takeadvantage that you're given
this day, live every day to itsfullest and show up in places
with happiness, with love, withjoy.
Jim Cunningham (24:07):
Yeah, which gives a lot of meaning to the
person's life.
Monica Meade (24:10):
Exactly, oh, absolutely.
Jim Cunningham (24:12):
Yeah.
Monica Meade (24:12):
Some other things that I think are beneficial.
In that way, the collateralbeauty or the carrying on their
memory, is doing something intheir honor.
It sounds very counterintuitive, but when you're in the depths
of your grief, in the depths ofyour sadness, and it's the most
difficult day to get out of bed,what has helped me is doing
something for somebody elseanonymously, thing for somebody
(24:40):
else anonymously.
So I'll go to Starbucks andI'll buy my daughter's favorite
drink was the caramelfrappuccino and I'll just give
him a gift card and be likewhoever orders the caramel
frappuccino.
Until this runs out, please usethis to pay for it and then
just say like it's from Kiana.
Another thing we've done is goneto memory care facility.
My daughter's birthday wasFebruary 15th, the day after
Valentine's Day.
So on her birthday it's the dayafter Valentine's Day, so the
(25:02):
Valentine's candy is 50% off.
So I'll go to Walmart and buythe entire case that they have
left of the candy hearts thelittle small ones that maybe
have like eight candy chocolatesin there and I'll take them to
the memory care facility withValentine's Day cards and we
hand them out to people whohaven't gotten visitors.
Yeah, and that keeps her aliveas well.
Jim Cunningham (25:21):
Okay, yeah, and that's I mean.
So that's kind of in a lot ofways, almost a year round, oh
yes, just coming to variouspoints, it's not just the
anniversary date of when youlost them or Correct so yeah.
Monica Meade (25:34):
And it's always, if I so yeah lessened.
It's still just as deep and asbig of a hole as it will always
be, but over time I'm able toaddress it differently.
(26:09):
And so if I have a very, veryhard day, I know that I'm inside
of myself, and to heal that Ihave to get outside of myself,
and that's where I go and dosomething for somebody else and
for whatever reason, it works.
Jim Cunningham (26:19):
What would you say if there was one bit of
advice to give somebody who haslost someone?
What is like that key thing.
That's like man.
Monica Meade (26:29):
I wish somebody would have told me that that
when you start feeling better,it's okay, it's okay, it's okay
to laugh again.
That was hard for me to notfeel guilty when I started
(26:51):
feeling happiness again, and Ithink if that would have been
normalized for me, I would haveaccepted it instead of rejecting
it and trying to be thinkingthat I wouldn't remember my
daughter if I wasn't sad.
Jim Cunningham (27:07):
Yeah, do you still struggle with that?
Monica Meade (27:10):
Oh, absolutely.
I think there'll always be apart of me.
That's sad.
Jim Cunningham (27:16):
Sure.
Monica Meade (27:17):
Even in my happiest moments, no matter what
they are, I could be laughingso hard in there.
I'll remember in the gut of whoI am that I'll never be that
happy again.
Jim Cunningham (27:26):
Sure, that's good If someone is looking for
help and they're looking for atherapist.
What's the red flag that theyshould find another therapist?
What's the red flag that theyshould find another?
Monica Meade (27:39):
thing.
Well for grief, I would say ifthey dismiss your feelings,
first of all right away.
If they dismiss what you arefeeling or they want you to move
on from it, or they want you tolet it go.
Okay.
Jim Cunningham (27:55):
Because you can feel it and not stay in it.
Monica Meade (27:56):
Sure Okay, so just acknowledging it.
Jim Cunningham (27:58):
This is an interesting question, but what
have, what have clients taughtyou?
Oh my gosh so much.
Monica Meade (28:06):
So if we're just sticking to grief, what have
they taught me?
Yeah, like I said, the thingthat was difficult for me was
the happiness piece, that it'sokay to be happy again.
So while when I see that in myclients and I see the way that
they experience joy in theirlife and experience the hope and
(28:28):
move forward, that has taughtme a different way to do it.
I've also think that learningfrom them, learning that grief
is so different amongsteverybody in the way that it's
expressed, but not in the waythat it's felt.
It's always felt fully, in thesense of not just a physical,
(28:50):
emotional pain, but all overbody.
And that was something I thinkmy own grief taught me.
But then, seeing it in otherpeople, I realized, oh, this is
universal, this is a universalpain.
Jim Cunningham (29:03):
What tends to keep people stuck.
You know they can't move on.
Monica Meade (29:08):
I think people stay stuck when they identify
with their pain, identify withtheir grief, and don't know who
they are without it.
Identify with their grief anddon't know who they are without
it.
So I think they cling to thatmore so than somebody who is not
identifying, and not I don'tmean as a victim necessarily.
(29:30):
I think that's part of it, butI don't think that's all of it.
I think when you're expected tobe a certain way and people see
you differently, they treat youdifferently, and so some people
have difficulty letting go ofthat because they don't want to
be treated any differently.
Jim Cunningham (29:45):
So in a lot of ways and I think this is
probably true of, again, anxiety, depression, other things when
people come in, what they'rereally looking for is a change
of identity in a lot of ways,instead of just trying to play
whack-a-mole with the symptoms.
it's like I want to become kindof a new person and redefining
myself.
If I lose a spouse, whetherthat's through death, divorce,
(30:06):
whatever there's a period whereyou're going to have to do some
soul searching and find out whothe new person is without this
person.
Oh, absolutely, you know whothe new person is without this
person.
Monica Meade (30:17):
Oh, absolutely.
Jim Cunningham (30:19):
Historically, over human, like, um, human
history, there haven't beencounselors.
No, so people have had to, andI think this, you know this.
I say this because back thenthey had to rely on other people
, community and families.
And families live close to eachother and now we are so
(30:41):
isolated from who lives in their, their family of origin.
Monica Meade (30:45):
Exactly.
Jim Cunningham (30:45):
And so where do people?
I mean?
I guess this, I say, let's sayit probably just compounds this
grieving process, becausethere's that saying it takes a
village to raise a child right.
Monica Meade (30:58):
It takes a village for a reason.
We need other people to show up.
We're built for connection ashuman beings.
We know that because we havemirror neurons.
We know that because that's howwe were created.
Us came in counselors right,and there's plenty of villages
(31:24):
of communities of cultures thatdon't have counselors.
Jim Cunningham (31:26):
They're not needed.
Yeah, much more traditional?
Yeah, yeah, so you'resuggesting tiktok isn't probably
the answer to find?
Connection, tiktok's always theanswer well, so what are the
statistics when you think aboutum the different, different
types of grief people go through.
What are some of thosestatistics?
Monica Meade (31:43):
So one of the ones that stands out the most to me
and it is true for my own storyas well is that losing a child
so the loss of a child, 73% ofthe time will end will also
result in the loss of a marriage, and 95% if one of the parents
is responsible.
So we are, when you think aboutthat and you think about
(32:05):
divorce rates, anywhere about50%.
Adding on the loss of a childincreases that to 73%, 95% if
one parent is responsible.
And you know, I think it comesdown to more than just we grieve
differently.
We don't understand each other.
What I think it comes down to,jim, is that you are stripped of
everything you were and youbecome someone new.
(32:27):
Now you have to learn to fallin love with someone new.
Right, the person that youmarried, the person that you
have fallen in love with,they're gone.
Jim Cunningham (32:41):
There's maybe glimpses of them in there, but
that's not who they are.
So 73% of people who lose achild end up getting a divorce.
Monica Meade (32:48):
Within five years.
Jim Cunningham (32:49):
Within five years, and that's without either
parent being directlyresponsible.
So the kid dies in a car wreckor something.
Monica Meade (32:55):
Yes, exactly, and then 95% if one of the parents
is responsible, even by accident.
Jim Cunningham (33:02):
Certainly Is that because and like you said,
going back to the identity isthat because that loss makes
people change that drasticallythat they don't connect anymore?
Or because you would think in amarriage that we lost a child,
the spouses would be.
That would be their biggestsource of strength.
Monica Meade (33:20):
Sure.
Jim Cunningham (33:21):
And maybe it doesn't.
Monica Meade (33:24):
I want you to think about a forest fire.
And if you look at the mountain, if you look at Pike's Peak, if
you look at or we had the WaldoCanyon fire you can still see
the scars of the burn.
Right, the burn scars are stillthere.
So if you compare grief to aforest fire, a person to the
mountain this is always how Idescribe it for my clients you
(33:45):
look at that mountain prior tothe forest fire.
It's beautiful.
You see the trees growing,flowers are blooming.
The forest fire comes in andtakes everything.
All vegetation is lost, it'sdestroyed, it's nothing.
The shell of it looks similar.
Right, the landscape is a bitdifferent, but the shell looks
similar.
Everything has to regrow and itdoesn't regrow the same way,
(34:05):
because that burn created spacefor new growth, different growth
, things that didn't see the sunbefore now do, and so those
parts grow.
First.
It looks beautiful again, butit's not the same.
And that's exactly what griefdoes to you.
It strips you down to the barenothing, nothing.
And you have to pick and choosewhat you want to shine, where
(34:27):
you want the growth to be.
Jim Cunningham (34:28):
Okay, so in a lot of ways it's opportunity.
Absolutely yeah, if you can seeit that way.
Monica Meade (34:34):
That's where the collateral beauty comes in,
right Of, I didn't choose thisforest fire.
What am I?
Jim Cunningham (34:41):
going to grow now?
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, Iguess, just to explore that
just a slight bit more.
How do you go from that pointof reinventing that and figuring
out what I want to?
We don't need to be togetheranymore like a divorce.
Monica Meade (34:57):
Sure, yeah, I think you recognize what matters
and what doesn't.
And if the other person yourspouse doesn't see it the same
way, you're very different.
I think I am a very differentperson than I was 10 years ago.
Very different the things thatmattered to me 10 years ago I
(35:18):
don't even think about now, 10years ago.
Very different the things thatmatter to me 10 years ago I
don't even think about now.
Not just because of age andmaturity, but because I know now
the importance of love, ofconnection, of family and the
knowledge that in an instant youcan lose everything, everything
that's important to you gone.
So you value what is importantto you and you don't worry about
the small stuff anymore.
(35:39):
But if your partner is not onthat same um belief or they
still value some of the thingsyou don't anymore, you're very
different.
Jim Cunningham (35:47):
You're not going to connect on the same things
yeah, I guess you know to thinkthrough a little bit further too
.
If there's any chinks in themarriage, this is going to
highlight that oh, absolutelyright this is going to if we
aren't solid.
It's kind of like a couplethat's having problems and they
decide to have a child bringthem together to fix it.
Yeah, doesn't work have a baby.
(36:08):
That's a lot, but I mean it goesboth ways right.
If we lose somebody, they couldbring out the same, they could
expose the same weaknesses.
Monica Meade (36:16):
The magnification of it.
Absolutely.
I think yes, that is a big partof it.
I you know, jim I keep goingback to that same thing that you
just are changed so drasticallythat you have to learn to love
the other person as they are atthat point, and sometimes love
isn't enough in that.
Jim Cunningham (36:35):
Yeah.
Monica Meade (36:36):
That's the other part is healing is scary.
Like you start unraveling itand you realize it's not one
inch deep.
It is through the core of youlike an onion, right like you
pull out the first layer, secondlayer we've been taught that
since day one of school.
But yeah, that's absolutelyright and the thought of the
(36:57):
unknown can keep you stuck.
What is going to happen outsideof this?
How do I heal from this?
What am I going to be likeafter?
How is this going to affect me?
What if this uncovers somethingelse?
Jim Cunningham (37:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Monica Meade (37:09):
And where they can contain what they know right,
the familiar.
Jim Cunningham (37:15):
Well, and this is a scary thing too right when
you ask people to startunpacking emotions.
It's kind of like Pandora's box.
I scary thing too right when,when you ask people to start
unpacking emotions right, it'slike.
It's kind of like Pandora's box.
You know, I opened that box.
I may not be able to get itback in the box once it gets out
, which is a scary thing.
Scary thing for people andfeeling out of control.
Monica Meade (37:30):
Oh yeah.
Jim Cunningham (37:31):
Yeah.
So if you're going to wrap thisup and say, okay, here's three
big takeaways you would likepeople to take away, what would
that be?
To kind of summarize?
Monica Meade (37:38):
takeaways you would like people to take away.
What would that be?
To kind of summarize, I wouldsay if you're grieving and you
don't have a support system, youdon't have people that'll show
up, that'll listen, that'll hearit and aren't uncomfortable
with it.
Find somebody who will, whetherthat be a therapist, a priest,
a pastor, whoever it is.
Find someone who will, becausewe're not meant to walk through
(37:59):
this alone.
We're just not.
Number two I would say thatit's okay to be happy again,
it's okay to love, it's okay tolaugh, it's okay.
And then it's also okay tostill be sad in those moments.
Don't beat yourself up aboutthat.
Number three, I think the lastthing I would say is that just
(38:27):
normalizing that you're alwaysgoing to feel that loss and
that's okay.
You're always going to feel itat some, to some extent, and
just being okay with that, Ithink, is important too, and to
always choose love.
We don't have a choice in a lotof things, but love keeps us
close to our loved ones.
It keeps us there's less regretthere when we make the choice
(38:49):
with love.
Jim Cunningham (38:49):
Well, I appreciate you taking the time
and sitting down.
Monica Meade (38:52):
Oh my gosh, thank you for asking me.
Jim Cunningham (38:54):
Yeah, I think this could be very helpful for a
lot of people.
Monica Meade (38:56):
Thanks, Jim.
Jim Cunningham (38:58):
Thanks for checking us out today on the
Unscripted Mind.
If you found this episodehelpful, please subscribe,
follow us to get notified whennew episodes are released, and
also leave a review.
If you have any questions ortopics you'd like us to cover,
please include those also.
Until next time, remember lifedoesn't come with a script, so
embrace the unexpected, cherishthe unplanned, always stay
(39:19):
curious and have an amazing day.
We'll see you next time on theUnscripted Mind.
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