October 3, 2024 • 26 mins
Are you tired of being trapped in toxic relationships and enduring their emotional toll? Discover the secrets to reclaiming your mental health and confidence as we explore the underlying personality disorders often at play. From the pervasive patterns of obsessive-compulsive personality disorder to the destructive roles in the drama triangle, we uncover the complexities of these dynamics with real-world examples. Learn to identify and navigate these tumultuous relationships, while mastering techniques like the 'gray rock' method to maintain your emotional neutrality amidst the chaos.
Unravel the drama triangle's victim, rescuer, and persecutor roles and witness how quickly they can shift, causing confusion and distress. We emphasize the power of strategic thinking and the necessity of staying calm to avoid getting ensnared in toxic exchanges. With guidance on embracing life's unpredictability and the humorous recognition of these cycles, we underscore the value of seeking professional help and sharing valuable insights with those who could benefit. Subscribe, follow, and share this enlightening episode, and let's embark on a journey toward healthier relationships and more fulfilling lives.
The goal of The UnScripted Mind Podcast is to give you fresh perspectives, practical insights and tools you can use to give you more choices, self-awareness and control of your feelings, reactions and behaviors.
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Episode Transcript
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JIM CUNNINGHAM (00:00):
Welcome to today's episode, where we dive
into the emotional rollercoasterthat is toxic relationships.
This is part two in a seriesthat I started last episode, and
you know whether you feel guilt, fear, sadness or like you're
losing your mind, whether you'refeeling anxious, insecure or
overwhelmed.
(00:20):
This episode's for you becausetoxic people come in many forms,
or overwhelmed.
This episode's for you becausetoxic people come in many forms,
whether you label themnarcissists, psychopaths,
sociopaths, abusive, mean,manipulative whatever term you
want to use it doesn't reallymatter what you call them,
because the impact is so real.
Today we'll uncover theemotional toll these
relationships take on you and,more importantly, how can you
(00:43):
break free from their grip.
Stay tuned as we exploreeffective strategies to protect
your mental health, to regaincontrol and to rebuild your
confidence on this episode ofthe Unscripted Mind.
Welcome to the Unscripted Mind,where our goal is to give you
(01:06):
fresh perspectives, practicalinsights and tools you can use
to give you more choices,increase your awareness and have
better control of your feelings, reactions and behaviors.
My name is Jim Cunningham andI'm a licensed professional
counselor, and today we'rediscussing what do you do if you
find yourself in a toxicrelationship.
Before we get started, if youmissed our last episode on how
(01:27):
to recognize signs that youmight be in a toxic relationship
.
I would encourage you to goback and check that out.
I'll include a link here tomake that simple for you.
So let's jump in.
First of all, how do weunderstand toxicity?
As I said in the last episode,people use a lot of terms to
describe toxic people narcissist, sociopath, psychopath, abusive
(01:50):
, mean, manipulative Again, thelist goes on.
It doesn't really matter whatyou call them.
And while these terms can behelpful to help us describe the
behavior, it's important tounderstand that this isn't about
diagnosing somebody.
It doesn't really matter whatyou call it.
What matters is recognizing thepatterns and the behaviors that
make up a toxic relationshipand, more importantly, what
(02:12):
these patterns do to you.
I do believe a lot, if not most,of these toxic people possibly
suffer from personalitydisorders.
So there's a lot of confusionabout the difference between a
mental illness and a personalitydisorder.
So there's a lot of confusionabout the difference between a
mental illness and a personalitydisorder.
I'll give you a quickdifferentiation to kind of help
you understand that.
Think of a mental illness likea regular illness, like a cold.
(02:36):
You can kind of feel it comingon, you get a scratchy throat.
You kind of bottom out for acouple of days, maybe a week,
and then you kind of feel backto yourself.
That's an illness.
It comes and it goes.
It's not part of you and itdoesn't feel like you, right,
you just like I, don't feel likemyself today.
Personality disorders, on theother hand, do not come and go.
They are characterized bypervasive and enduring patterns
(03:01):
of behavior.
Now there are 10 personalitydisorders in the DSM-5.
And each one of those has afundamental trait or
characteristic and that kind ofmakes them a one trick pony.
So, for example, obsessivecompulsive personality disorder
which, by the way, has nothingto do with obsessive compulsive
(03:21):
disorder OCD is about managinganxiety.
So repetitive behaviors, thingsto reduce anxiety by creating a
perception of more control,hand washing, those types of
things.
Obsessive compulsive personalitydisorder, on the other hand, is
about control.
That is their fundamentalcharacteristic.
So, as a one-trick pony, I havethis hammer and I have this
(03:41):
tool, and when you give somebodya hammer, everything starts to
look like a nail, of course.
Mental characteristics so, as aone trick pony, I have this
hammer and I have this tool, andwhen you give somebody a hammer
, everything starts to look likea nail, of course.
So I've got this tool that'scalled control, and when I apply
that to relationships or workor whatever, a lot of times it
works really good, but at somepoint it starts to break
relationships because peopledon't like being controlled.
(04:03):
So what is the person with OCPDend up doing?
Well, they have to double downbecause this is the only tool
that they have in the toolbox.
So if you're going to treat amental illness, a lot of times
you are tweaking things that arealready there.
Dr Greg Lester used the analogyof if you have a mental illness
, you open the hood of a car tofix it and you change the spark
(04:25):
plugs.
If you have a personalitydisorder, you open the hood,
there's no motor.
So this is more of aninstallation rather than a
repair.
So think of it that way.
Some of the othercharacteristics of a personality
disorder are people who arereally unable to accept
ownership for their part inthings.
(04:46):
So it can't be me, it must beeverybody else.
They lack what they call eitheran observing ego or this
ability to see themselvesobjectively.
So most of us, when we gothrough life, we try something
and when it doesn't work, wecourse correct.
We apply a different traithumility, gratitude or any other
(05:07):
trait that's out there to adaptto the situation.
But if you're a one trick pony,you've got one tool and you
just keep applying it to onething and when that one thing
breaks, you double down on itand it causes more problems for
them.
So for this reason, a lot ofpeople with personality
disorders they don't suffer fromsymptoms like most people do
(05:27):
with a mental illness anxiety,depression, those types of
things.
They tend to suffer from theconsequences of their pervasive
patterns of behavior.
The things that they do maketheir lives hard for them.
So if you're an overcontrolling person, your life is
going to be complicated in alot of ways because it's going
to create problems for you inrelationships and work and a lot
(05:50):
of other areas.
So that's what makes life hardfor them.
They do have symptoms and theywill present with anxiety or
depression or a variety of othersymptoms, but those are
secondary to what the actualproblem is.
The other thing to note is that,for example so if you have a
(06:11):
mood disorder and you feeldepressed, most people bottom
out.
You know, depression turnspeople into cats.
They sleep a lot, they have lowenergy, they can't get
themselves out of bed.
They can't get themselvesmoving and motivated.
Conversely, borderlinepersonality disorder can feel
depressed, but what thatpresents as they can still have
a ton of energy.
They don't bottom out like that.
(06:32):
They don't go to sleep for days, they just are frustrated and
they feel sad, but they stillhave a high degree of energy.
So that's one big distinctionthat you might notice.
The other thing aboutpersonality disorders is that,
again, these are a disorder ofthe person.
They're not something peoplecatch or get, which is also why
medications don't usually workvery well for them.
Most of our psychotropicmedications for mental health
(06:54):
deal exclusively with minimizingsymptoms antidepressant,
antipsychotic, anti-anxietymedications.
We don't have medications thatgive you more traits to make you
more adaptable to a verycomplex world.
So what you would find is a lotof personality disorders can be
diagnosed by age five.
(07:16):
This is not something peopledevelop.
It's something they have veryearly on, and a lot of research
suggests that there's a geneticcomponent to this that accounts
for up to as much as 80% of thevariants.
So, knowing that if you've dealtwith somebody for 20 years
who's been one way, all of asudden now they're another, I
would not ascribe that to apersonality disorder.
(07:37):
Something may have happened, atraumatic event or something
else, but if it's somethingthat's like, wow, this person's
kind of always been that way,it's kind of the way they are.
And some people have describedpersonality disordered people as
they tend to be inappropriate.
So there's a lot of symptomsthat go with this and things
that you can kind of recognizewith personality disorders.
But I need to say this alsosometimes the symptoms will
(08:01):
actually disappear in the rightenvironment.
As I said, each personalitydisorder has its own fundamental
characteristic, whether that'scontrol, whether that's
grandiosity, when you refer to anarcissist.
So the symptoms disappear inthe right environment.
So, for example, if you put anarcissist on stage or you make
(08:21):
them the star of a movie,they're the life of the party,
they're great, they're actuallyvery, very good at what they do.
You take that same person andyou bring them into your house,
where they're not getting allthat attention and they're not
feeling special.
You're going to see a verydifferent side of them than most
people do.
(08:41):
So when people are in toxicrelationships with somebody who
has a personality disorder, alot of times they will say I'm
the only person that sees this,which contributes to some of the
crazy feelings that people haveabout themselves.
Maybe it's just me and it'shard for a lot of people to
distinguish.
So toxic people tend to have avery pervasive and enduring
(09:02):
pattern of behavior, and thesebehaviors can stay consistent
over time and often seem immuneto the negative consequences
that they create.
Dr John Livesley is a leadingexpert in personality disorders
and he describes it like this.
He says a personality disorderis a human being who persists in
a behavior in the face of clearevidence that it is
(09:23):
inappropriate and despite theongoing bad consequences it
creates.
See, toxic people can create anemotional environment that
feels chaotic, confusing anddownright exhausting to be
around.
It's like being stuck in a loopwhere they dish out the pain
but rarely, if ever, takeresponsibility for it.
Okay, so why is all of this soconfusing?
(09:46):
Well, here's the thing being ina toxic relationship can make
you question everything aboutyourself.
There are a ton of emotions andhonestly, I think that's part
of the point.
If I can generate emotions inyou and I can get you upset, if
I can get you sad, if I can getyou questioning things, I can
manipulate you a lot easier.
(10:07):
So you feel guilt, anxiety,maybe even a little crazy.
Right?
This is because toxicindividuals are masters at
deflecting responsibility andkeeping you off balance.
Dr John Gunderson from Harvardput it in an interesting way he
calls it the emotional versionof a tick they get under your
(10:27):
skin, they latch onto you, theyfeed off your energy and they
leave you feeling drained.
One of the ways this plays outis through something called the
drama triangle.
Now, this is very important tobe able to recognize what this
is in the moment, because thisis one of the ways that I help
people the most is to createawareness of what the games look
(10:48):
like and what the patterns looklike.
So when you start to recognizethem, you realize all of a
sudden it's not personal.
You can be like the coach inthe press box instead of the
nose tackle on the field.
You can see the game for whatit is and then you can start
making educated choices abouthow you're going to engage with
that game.
If you're not familiar with thedrama triangle, this is a
(11:09):
concept that was developed byStephen Cartman probably back in
the 40s, if I'm not mistakenand it involves three roles that
all of us kind of play at onepoint or another.
The first one is the victim,the second is the persecutor and
the third is the rescuer or thehelper.
So I want you to think about itlike this, or just picture in
your mind a triangle and ifyou're watching this on YouTube,
(11:35):
I'll put up a graphic for youbut think of a triangle and at
each point of that, triangle isone of these positions that
people take and I say positionsbecause there are true victims
in the world, make no mistakeabout it.
But these are not true victims.
These are victim stances, arescuer stance, and the goal of
this dynamic is to createconfusion and upset that leads
(11:57):
to conflict.
So it serves its own purpose,but, make no mistake, it's not
about solving the problem.
It's a great way to generateemotions, so that if I have
negative emotions, I can passthem on to you.
Honestly, one of the thingsabout getting angry and having
conflict with somebody is togive away some of your anger,
right?
(12:18):
So this is a great way to dothat.
We all have bad days and, to beperfectly honest, we all do
this to a certain degree, right?
But this is doing it more for adifferent purpose and serving
different ends.
So you think about starting as,say, the victim.
I'm driving down the road.
I have a flat tire and I don'tknow how to fix it.
(12:40):
I'm a victim.
I'm an actual victim.
You come along as the rescuerand you offer to help me fix my
tire and I show a lot of greattraits and I say thank you and
show gratitude and humility andI'm helpful and all these things
.
And you fix the tire and I saythank you and we go our separate
(13:00):
ways.
Problem is solved and there'sno problems.
There's no emotional eventthat's going on there.
If halfway through, I take thetire, iron, and I club you over
the head with it and take yourmoney, I have just changed our
relationship.
I've switched from victim topersecutor.
That's going to generate a lotof emotions.
(13:20):
Similarly, if I come along as arescuer and say, hey, I, you
know, I'd like to help you, andas you start doing something, I
start criticizing you about howyou're doing it all wrong.
So again switching from therescuer to the persecutor.
So you see these patterns a lotin these kinds of toxic
relationships.
I come home and say, oh, whatwas my?
(13:43):
My life is terrible.
And then, if you don't providethe requisite amount of
attention, I started attackingyou, you know, and you haven't
done anything to help me either.
And so, all of a sudden, I havea lot of emotion because you've
just switched the game on me,and this triangle is all about
creating drama.
(14:03):
You know you're in a drama.
When you find yourselfrepeating yourself over and over
again, you feel like you needto apologize.
You get angry, you getemotional, you say things you
don't mean, and at the end ofthe conversation you're more
confused than when you began.
We started with what I thoughtwas a problem, and then, over
the course of this conversationthat might last hours, things
from a week ago, a month ago,all get thrown into the mix.
(14:26):
It's like watching a politicaldebate.
There's too many points to evenaddress.
I don't even know where tobegin.
So I get confused and I getupset and I don't understand it.
And this is this is part of theproblem is because now you're
off balance and usually you'reemotional.
Like I said, emotions keep usfrom thinking clearly, and so we
(14:47):
have a real hard time engagingwith something, especially when
we don't know what the problemis.
Somebody once said that thedrama triangle is usually based
on a couple of things.
Two of those are ambiguity andbroken agreements.
We don't know what we're tryingto fix, so we don't know when
it's fixed.
Or somebody says I agree to dosomething and then they don't.
(15:09):
Okay, those two things aregoing to generate a lot of
emotion, particularly theambiguity.
And, like I said, things fromthe past get thrown in and other
situations and you don't knowexactly what you're trying to
fix anymore and you findyourself trying to respond to
all kinds of things that there'salmost too many to respond to.
So this dynamic can switch backand forth very quickly, keeping
(15:31):
you very confused about what'sreally going on.
And I tell a lot of people thisyou need to start playing chess
and not checkers.
You need to strategically thinkabout what the conversation is
while you're having theconversation so you can
recognize this.
And when you start feeling off,you need to start listening to
your gut, because that's a redflag.
(15:52):
Toxic relationships aren'tsimple, they're tactical and
strategic.
You've got to think about itthat way, because if I get
sucked into their arguments andbuy into the presuppositions and
their twisted logic, I'm goingto get lost.
I'm going to get emotional andthen I'm hosed.
As soon as those emotions comeup, I've already lost the game.
(16:12):
So the key here is don't playthe wrong game.
Stay strategic, and the way youdo that is you try to problem
solve.
This is outside of the dramatriangle.
Problem solving, like drama, isbased on two things.
It's based on simplicity andclarity.
(16:32):
My flat tire that you helped mefix.
We both knew what the problemwas and we knew when it was
fixed, because we both know whatthe problem was.
It was very clear and it wasvery simple and it was not
emotional.
So when I start trying toproblem solve, there's no
emotion with that and I can staycalm.
I find that this is a greatlitmus test for somebody who
(16:52):
wants to do drama, because it'lltell you whether they're trying
to solve something and they'retrying to create the drama and
the upset and the confusion.
When I stay calm and somebody istruly trying to generate drama,
I guarantee you it willexacerbate the problem.
They will escalate right,because in the drama triangle I
(17:15):
need you to participate in thisand if you don't participate, I
have to get meaner, nastier, sayharsher things, make bolder
accusations to generate emotionin you so that you jump in to
the game.
And this is the hard partstaying true to being calm.
You know some people call itgoing gray rock.
(17:36):
I'm not going to give themanything.
Um, no emotions, nothing towork with, and so this is simple
, but it's not easy because,again, people who do drama are
much better at it than you areand you're going to get lost.
You'll be stepping on the courtwith LeBron, except there's no
lines, there's no referee and noscoreboard, and you don't know
(17:56):
what you're doing.
But you know you're outmatchedand outgunned.
So the key is don't play thewrong game.
Think strategically, and onceyou're able to see this in real
time where somebody is alwaysthe perpetual victim and then
they turn on you and then theygo back to being the victim, and
then they turn on you and thenthey go back to being the victim
and then they turn on you again, once you can recognize that in
(18:16):
the moment, you can see it forwhat it is, and, honestly, I
know people who begin to chuckleat that point because it is so
obvious when you don't know whatthe game is, you get sucked
into it and then you're lost.
So where do we go from here?
Knowing this is a big part ofit, but you also have to learn
to trust yourself and knowwhat's true and what's not true
(18:40):
when you're dealing with a toxicperson, one of the most
important things you can do isto separate what's real from
what the manipulation is andwhat that presentation looks
like.
It's crucial to make a list offacts, and I found this very
helpful in a lot of situations.
What things do I know forcertain?
What do I know about thisperson In terms of gaslighting?
(19:01):
Did I actually say that or am Ibeing manipulated?
Not how you feel, but what youknow, and that's important.
Not what you feel, but what youknow.
Write it down.
This is a simple act that cananchor you when your emotions
start getting the best of youand when you start feeling
nostalgic about this person andyou start forgetting all the bad
(19:24):
stuff and why you feel so bad.
This simple act can help youwhen the emotions get
overwhelming and can alsoclarify what's happening versus
what the toxic person is tryingto make you believe.
Another critical part ofnavigating those relationships
is to trust your gut.
We've all been there where thered flags are there.
(19:46):
Our gut is screaming and we'relike ah, it's probably not that
big a deal.
Often, our instincts will alertus before your mind catches up.
If something feels off, itprobably is.
Too many people in toxicrelationships dismiss that gut
feeling, but it's one of ourstrongest tools for survival.
There's a great book by GavinDeBecker called the Gift of Fear
(20:09):
, and he addresses this whereall these people have just kind
of ignored the red flags thatare out there, to the detriment
of their own safety.
So I recommend reading that.
I'll put a link for that hereas well.
Okay, so what are our options?
What are we going to do aboutall of this, in addition to the
things that I've alreadymentioned?
Well, I think when you realizeyou're in a toxic relationships,
(20:33):
you've kind of got three basicpaths forward.
First of all, you can try tofix the other person.
Spoiler alert probably notgoing to work unless they're
willing to engage in seriousself-reflection, own their stuff
and be able to make concessions, apologize.
Only then can they make realchanges.
But you cannot fix them.
(20:54):
That is the ultimate sin of theempath is to think that they
can fix people.
They cannot, and you know thisbecause a lot of people in toxic
relationships say their partner.
They never apologize.
They seem to have littleempathy, and by that I mean when
you're down and you're notfighting back anymore.
They keep kicking, so they canbe very mean.
(21:15):
Your second option, if you can'tfix the person, is how do you
manage the relationship?
Now, this might involve settingup strong boundaries, limiting
contact or finding ways toprotect yourself emotionally
while staying in therelationship, which is a very,
very difficult thing to do and,I might add, a very exhausting
thing to do.
The third option is to createsome space.
(21:38):
Now, in many cases, thehealthiest option is distance,
and even if this is for a week,this doesn't necessarily mean
leaving immediately forever, butit does mean reducing the
influence that that person hason you, and this could also be
just for a short period of time,like I say, for a week or two,
if that person's out of town.
It's also a good way to testthe environment and say you know
(22:00):
, when this person's not around,how do I feel?
That's always a good way tokind of evaluate how much impact
this other person's having onyou.
And here's a tip I foundincredibly helpful for people
struggling with the toxicrelationships and I have a whole
episode discussing this thatI'll leave a link to, and it's
called caring less.
If everything you do seems tomake them unhappy, then stop
(22:21):
trying to please them.
Start doing what you want to doIf you're already going to lose
anyway.
Start doing what you want to doand what makes you happy.
The more you care about theirapproval, the more power you
give them.
So as you start recognizingthings like the drama triangle
and caring less and knowing whatyou know, you start taking a
lot of power back in therelationship.
(22:44):
So, talking about leaving whenis it actually time to leave the
relationship?
When do you know it's time?
This can be a tough decision,but there are a few things to
consider.
Number one is the relationshipabusive?
If it is, that's your answer.
Abuse is a hard line.
Empaths struggle with creatingboundaries because they don't
(23:04):
know what they want.
They actually don't know wherethese boundaries are.
A lot of times they might beable to agree with yeah, if I
get hit, if I get cheated onthose kinds of things, but what
other boundaries?
Name calling, being yelled at,being humiliated in public what
are the boundaries?
So you know where those linesare and when they're crossed and
when you establish thoseboundaries, then you have a
(23:25):
pretty good, clear understandingof when you need to create some
separation.
So number one is therelationship abusive, and that's
verbal as well as physical, andI will say the physical tends
to be a lot easier to identifyand justify leaving.
A lot of people who are inemotionally abusive
relationships make excuses andthey say well, that was just a
(23:47):
one-off and it's not that bad,it's not worth ending the
relationship over, and in somecases I think the emotional has
a lot more long-term damage thanthe physical abuse.
The second thing to consider ifit's time to leave is are you
allowed to be yourself?
If you feel like you have to beconstantly changing who you are
and if you're walking oneggshells all the time, I think
(24:08):
that's a clear sign that thingsare off track and you need to
consider that.
The third thing I would say iswho is your best relationship?
That should be your litmus testagainst all other relationships
.
That person that you know thatyou can be yourself with.
You don't.
There's no pretenses there.
You can be honest, you can bevulnerable and it's always going
to be okay.
When I compare that to thetoxic relationship, usually
(24:32):
you're going to see somethingthat is very night and day and
that is a huge red flag.
But ultimately, leaving a toxicrelationship is about gaining
control of your life andprotecting your mental health,
and you're worth it.
Most people again makeconcessions and they make
excuses for the toxic person.
It's about creating space foryourself to heal, to grow and to
(24:52):
be free from the constantemotional drain that toxic
people create.
And again, I think I said thisin the last episode, but getting
out of a toxic relationship isa very difficult thing to do
because there's that emotionaltie and the addictive piece to
that with the dopamine that youcan go back in here in the
previous episode and that againcauses people to leave a
(25:13):
relationship seven times beforepermanently staying out of it.
It's a very difficult thing todo because there's so much tied
up with that.
So let me leave you with a fewthoughts.
First of all, if you're stuckin a toxic relationship, know
that you have options.
You always have options, thepower that you want.
You can get back wheneveryou're ready to have that Hard
(25:33):
thing to do Simple but not easy.
You you're ready to have thatHard thing to do, simple but not
easy.
You don't have to stay trappedand honestly, you deserve better
.
You know, don't minimize whatyou deserve at the expense of
other people.
It's not easy, but with theright tools, I think you can
break free, you can protect yourmental health and you can
rebuild your own confidence andrebuild your self-esteem and all
the things that these toxicrelationships take away from you
(25:54):
.
Rebuild your self-esteem andall the things that these toxic
relationships take away from you.
So remember the game is alwayson, but you can play it smart by
playing chess and not checkers.
Thanks for tuning into thisepisode of the unscripted mind.
If you found this episoderesonated with you, be sure and
share it with somebody who mightneed to hear it.
And if you're struggling with atoxic relationship and need
(26:14):
help navigating it, don'thesitate to reach out to a
licensed therapist who might beable to guide you through that.
So thanks again for checking usout.
Also, please subscribe, followthis episode, leave a review and
if you have any questions ortopics you'd like us to cover,
please include that also.
Until next time, remember lifedoesn't come with a script.
So embrace the unexpected,cherish the unplanned, always
(26:37):
stay curious and have an amazingday.
We'll see you next time on theUnscripted Mind.
Welcome to today's episode, where we dive
into the emotional rollercoasterthat is toxic relationships.
This is part two in a seriesthat I started last episode, and
you know whether you feel guilt, fear, sadness or like you're
losing your mind, whether you'refeeling anxious, insecure or
overwhelmed.
(00:20):
This episode's for you becausetoxic people come in many forms,
or overwhelmed.
This episode's for you becausetoxic people come in many forms,
whether you label themnarcissists, psychopaths,
sociopaths, abusive, mean,manipulative whatever term you
want to use it doesn't reallymatter what you call them,
because the impact is so real.
Today we'll uncover theemotional toll these
relationships take on you and,more importantly, how can you
(00:43):
break free from their grip.
Stay tuned as we exploreeffective strategies to protect
your mental health, to regaincontrol and to rebuild your
confidence on this episode ofthe Unscripted Mind.
Welcome to the Unscripted Mind,where our goal is to give you
(01:06):
fresh perspectives, practicalinsights and tools you can use
to give you more choices,increase your awareness and have
better control of your feelings, reactions and behaviors.
My name is Jim Cunningham andI'm a licensed professional
counselor, and today we'rediscussing what do you do if you
find yourself in a toxicrelationship.
Before we get started, if youmissed our last episode on how
(01:27):
to recognize signs that youmight be in a toxic relationship
.
I would encourage you to goback and check that out.
I'll include a link here tomake that simple for you.
So let's jump in.
First of all, how do weunderstand toxicity?
As I said in the last episode,people use a lot of terms to
describe toxic people narcissist, sociopath, psychopath, abusive
(01:50):
, mean, manipulative Again, thelist goes on.
It doesn't really matter whatyou call them.
And while these terms can behelpful to help us describe the
behavior, it's important tounderstand that this isn't about
diagnosing somebody.
It doesn't really matter whatyou call it.
What matters is recognizing thepatterns and the behaviors that
make up a toxic relationshipand, more importantly, what
(02:12):
these patterns do to you.
I do believe a lot, if not most,of these toxic people possibly
suffer from personalitydisorders.
So there's a lot of confusionabout the difference between a
mental illness and a personalitydisorder.
So there's a lot of confusionabout the difference between a
mental illness and a personalitydisorder.
I'll give you a quickdifferentiation to kind of help
you understand that.
Think of a mental illness likea regular illness, like a cold.
(02:36):
You can kind of feel it comingon, you get a scratchy throat.
You kind of bottom out for acouple of days, maybe a week,
and then you kind of feel backto yourself.
That's an illness.
It comes and it goes.
It's not part of you and itdoesn't feel like you, right,
you just like I, don't feel likemyself today.
Personality disorders, on theother hand, do not come and go.
They are characterized bypervasive and enduring patterns
(03:01):
of behavior.
Now there are 10 personalitydisorders in the DSM-5.
And each one of those has afundamental trait or
characteristic and that kind ofmakes them a one trick pony.
So, for example, obsessivecompulsive personality disorder
which, by the way, has nothingto do with obsessive compulsive
(03:21):
disorder OCD is about managinganxiety.
So repetitive behaviors, thingsto reduce anxiety by creating a
perception of more control,hand washing, those types of
things.
Obsessive compulsive personalitydisorder, on the other hand, is
about control.
That is their fundamentalcharacteristic.
So, as a one-trick pony, I havethis hammer and I have this
(03:41):
tool, and when you give somebodya hammer, everything starts to
look like a nail, of course.
Mental characteristics so, as aone trick pony, I have this
hammer and I have this tool, andwhen you give somebody a hammer
, everything starts to look likea nail, of course.
So I've got this tool that'scalled control, and when I apply
that to relationships or workor whatever, a lot of times it
works really good, but at somepoint it starts to break
relationships because peopledon't like being controlled.
(04:03):
So what is the person with OCPDend up doing?
Well, they have to double downbecause this is the only tool
that they have in the toolbox.
So if you're going to treat amental illness, a lot of times
you are tweaking things that arealready there.
Dr Greg Lester used the analogyof if you have a mental illness
, you open the hood of a car tofix it and you change the spark
(04:25):
plugs.
If you have a personalitydisorder, you open the hood,
there's no motor.
So this is more of aninstallation rather than a
repair.
So think of it that way.
Some of the othercharacteristics of a personality
disorder are people who arereally unable to accept
ownership for their part inthings.
(04:46):
So it can't be me, it must beeverybody else.
They lack what they call eitheran observing ego or this
ability to see themselvesobjectively.
So most of us, when we gothrough life, we try something
and when it doesn't work, wecourse correct.
We apply a different traithumility, gratitude or any other
(05:07):
trait that's out there to adaptto the situation.
But if you're a one trick pony,you've got one tool and you
just keep applying it to onething and when that one thing
breaks, you double down on itand it causes more problems for
them.
So for this reason, a lot ofpeople with personality
disorders they don't suffer fromsymptoms like most people do
(05:27):
with a mental illness anxiety,depression, those types of
things.
They tend to suffer from theconsequences of their pervasive
patterns of behavior.
The things that they do maketheir lives hard for them.
So if you're an overcontrolling person, your life is
going to be complicated in alot of ways because it's going
to create problems for you inrelationships and work and a lot
(05:50):
of other areas.
So that's what makes life hardfor them.
They do have symptoms and theywill present with anxiety or
depression or a variety of othersymptoms, but those are
secondary to what the actualproblem is.
The other thing to note is that,for example so if you have a
(06:11):
mood disorder and you feeldepressed, most people bottom
out.
You know, depression turnspeople into cats.
They sleep a lot, they have lowenergy, they can't get
themselves out of bed.
They can't get themselvesmoving and motivated.
Conversely, borderlinepersonality disorder can feel
depressed, but what thatpresents as they can still have
a ton of energy.
They don't bottom out like that.
(06:32):
They don't go to sleep for days, they just are frustrated and
they feel sad, but they stillhave a high degree of energy.
So that's one big distinctionthat you might notice.
The other thing aboutpersonality disorders is that,
again, these are a disorder ofthe person.
They're not something peoplecatch or get, which is also why
medications don't usually workvery well for them.
Most of our psychotropicmedications for mental health
(06:54):
deal exclusively with minimizingsymptoms antidepressant,
antipsychotic, anti-anxietymedications.
We don't have medications thatgive you more traits to make you
more adaptable to a verycomplex world.
So what you would find is a lotof personality disorders can be
diagnosed by age five.
(07:16):
This is not something peopledevelop.
It's something they have veryearly on, and a lot of research
suggests that there's a geneticcomponent to this that accounts
for up to as much as 80% of thevariants.
So, knowing that if you've dealtwith somebody for 20 years
who's been one way, all of asudden now they're another, I
would not ascribe that to apersonality disorder.
(07:37):
Something may have happened, atraumatic event or something
else, but if it's somethingthat's like, wow, this person's
kind of always been that way,it's kind of the way they are.
And some people have describedpersonality disordered people as
they tend to be inappropriate.
So there's a lot of symptomsthat go with this and things
that you can kind of recognizewith personality disorders.
But I need to say this alsosometimes the symptoms will
(08:01):
actually disappear in the rightenvironment.
As I said, each personalitydisorder has its own fundamental
characteristic, whether that'scontrol, whether that's
grandiosity, when you refer to anarcissist.
So the symptoms disappear inthe right environment.
So, for example, if you put anarcissist on stage or you make
(08:21):
them the star of a movie,they're the life of the party,
they're great, they're actuallyvery, very good at what they do.
You take that same person andyou bring them into your house,
where they're not getting allthat attention and they're not
feeling special.
You're going to see a verydifferent side of them than most
people do.
(08:41):
So when people are in toxicrelationships with somebody who
has a personality disorder, alot of times they will say I'm
the only person that sees this,which contributes to some of the
crazy feelings that people haveabout themselves.
Maybe it's just me and it'shard for a lot of people to
distinguish.
So toxic people tend to have avery pervasive and enduring
(09:02):
pattern of behavior, and thesebehaviors can stay consistent
over time and often seem immuneto the negative consequences
that they create.
Dr John Livesley is a leadingexpert in personality disorders
and he describes it like this.
He says a personality disorderis a human being who persists in
a behavior in the face of clearevidence that it is
(09:23):
inappropriate and despite theongoing bad consequences it
creates.
See, toxic people can create anemotional environment that
feels chaotic, confusing anddownright exhausting to be
around.
It's like being stuck in a loopwhere they dish out the pain
but rarely, if ever, takeresponsibility for it.
Okay, so why is all of this soconfusing?
(09:46):
Well, here's the thing being ina toxic relationship can make
you question everything aboutyourself.
There are a ton of emotions andhonestly, I think that's part
of the point.
If I can generate emotions inyou and I can get you upset, if
I can get you sad, if I can getyou questioning things, I can
manipulate you a lot easier.
(10:07):
So you feel guilt, anxiety,maybe even a little crazy.
Right?
This is because toxicindividuals are masters at
deflecting responsibility andkeeping you off balance.
Dr John Gunderson from Harvardput it in an interesting way he
calls it the emotional versionof a tick they get under your
(10:27):
skin, they latch onto you, theyfeed off your energy and they
leave you feeling drained.
One of the ways this plays outis through something called the
drama triangle.
Now, this is very important tobe able to recognize what this
is in the moment, because thisis one of the ways that I help
people the most is to createawareness of what the games look
(10:48):
like and what the patterns looklike.
So when you start to recognizethem, you realize all of a
sudden it's not personal.
You can be like the coach inthe press box instead of the
nose tackle on the field.
You can see the game for whatit is and then you can start
making educated choices abouthow you're going to engage with
that game.
If you're not familiar with thedrama triangle, this is a
(11:09):
concept that was developed byStephen Cartman probably back in
the 40s, if I'm not mistakenand it involves three roles that
all of us kind of play at onepoint or another.
The first one is the victim,the second is the persecutor and
the third is the rescuer or thehelper.
So I want you to think about itlike this, or just picture in
your mind a triangle and ifyou're watching this on YouTube,
(11:35):
I'll put up a graphic for youbut think of a triangle and at
each point of that, triangle isone of these positions that
people take and I say positionsbecause there are true victims
in the world, make no mistakeabout it.
But these are not true victims.
These are victim stances, arescuer stance, and the goal of
this dynamic is to createconfusion and upset that leads
(11:57):
to conflict.
So it serves its own purpose,but, make no mistake, it's not
about solving the problem.
It's a great way to generateemotions, so that if I have
negative emotions, I can passthem on to you.
Honestly, one of the thingsabout getting angry and having
conflict with somebody is togive away some of your anger,
right?
(12:18):
So this is a great way to dothat.
We all have bad days and, to beperfectly honest, we all do
this to a certain degree, right?
But this is doing it more for adifferent purpose and serving
different ends.
So you think about starting as,say, the victim.
I'm driving down the road.
I have a flat tire and I don'tknow how to fix it.
(12:40):
I'm a victim.
I'm an actual victim.
You come along as the rescuerand you offer to help me fix my
tire and I show a lot of greattraits and I say thank you and
show gratitude and humility andI'm helpful and all these things
.
And you fix the tire and I saythank you and we go our separate
(13:00):
ways.
Problem is solved and there'sno problems.
There's no emotional eventthat's going on there.
If halfway through, I take thetire, iron, and I club you over
the head with it and take yourmoney, I have just changed our
relationship.
I've switched from victim topersecutor.
That's going to generate a lotof emotions.
(13:20):
Similarly, if I come along as arescuer and say, hey, I, you
know, I'd like to help you, andas you start doing something, I
start criticizing you about howyou're doing it all wrong.
So again switching from therescuer to the persecutor.
So you see these patterns a lotin these kinds of toxic
relationships.
I come home and say, oh, whatwas my?
(13:43):
My life is terrible.
And then, if you don't providethe requisite amount of
attention, I started attackingyou, you know, and you haven't
done anything to help me either.
And so, all of a sudden, I havea lot of emotion because you've
just switched the game on me,and this triangle is all about
creating drama.
(14:03):
You know you're in a drama.
When you find yourselfrepeating yourself over and over
again, you feel like you needto apologize.
You get angry, you getemotional, you say things you
don't mean, and at the end ofthe conversation you're more
confused than when you began.
We started with what I thoughtwas a problem, and then, over
the course of this conversationthat might last hours, things
from a week ago, a month ago,all get thrown into the mix.
(14:26):
It's like watching a politicaldebate.
There's too many points to evenaddress.
I don't even know where tobegin.
So I get confused and I getupset and I don't understand it.
And this is this is part of theproblem is because now you're
off balance and usually you'reemotional.
Like I said, emotions keep usfrom thinking clearly, and so we
(14:47):
have a real hard time engagingwith something, especially when
we don't know what the problemis.
Somebody once said that thedrama triangle is usually based
on a couple of things.
Two of those are ambiguity andbroken agreements.
We don't know what we're tryingto fix, so we don't know when
it's fixed.
Or somebody says I agree to dosomething and then they don't.
(15:09):
Okay, those two things aregoing to generate a lot of
emotion, particularly theambiguity.
And, like I said, things fromthe past get thrown in and other
situations and you don't knowexactly what you're trying to
fix anymore and you findyourself trying to respond to
all kinds of things that there'salmost too many to respond to.
So this dynamic can switch backand forth very quickly, keeping
(15:31):
you very confused about what'sreally going on.
And I tell a lot of people thisyou need to start playing chess
and not checkers.
You need to strategically thinkabout what the conversation is
while you're having theconversation so you can
recognize this.
And when you start feeling off,you need to start listening to
your gut, because that's a redflag.
(15:52):
Toxic relationships aren'tsimple, they're tactical and
strategic.
You've got to think about itthat way, because if I get
sucked into their arguments andbuy into the presuppositions and
their twisted logic, I'm goingto get lost.
I'm going to get emotional andthen I'm hosed.
As soon as those emotions comeup, I've already lost the game.
(16:12):
So the key here is don't playthe wrong game.
Stay strategic, and the way youdo that is you try to problem
solve.
This is outside of the dramatriangle.
Problem solving, like drama, isbased on two things.
It's based on simplicity andclarity.
(16:32):
My flat tire that you helped mefix.
We both knew what the problemwas and we knew when it was
fixed, because we both know whatthe problem was.
It was very clear and it wasvery simple and it was not
emotional.
So when I start trying toproblem solve, there's no
emotion with that and I can staycalm.
I find that this is a greatlitmus test for somebody who
(16:52):
wants to do drama, because it'lltell you whether they're trying
to solve something and they'retrying to create the drama and
the upset and the confusion.
When I stay calm and somebody istruly trying to generate drama,
I guarantee you it willexacerbate the problem.
They will escalate right,because in the drama triangle I
(17:15):
need you to participate in thisand if you don't participate, I
have to get meaner, nastier, sayharsher things, make bolder
accusations to generate emotionin you so that you jump in to
the game.
And this is the hard partstaying true to being calm.
You know some people call itgoing gray rock.
(17:36):
I'm not going to give themanything.
Um, no emotions, nothing towork with, and so this is simple
, but it's not easy because,again, people who do drama are
much better at it than you areand you're going to get lost.
You'll be stepping on the courtwith LeBron, except there's no
lines, there's no referee and noscoreboard, and you don't know
(17:56):
what you're doing.
But you know you're outmatchedand outgunned.
So the key is don't play thewrong game.
Think strategically, and onceyou're able to see this in real
time where somebody is alwaysthe perpetual victim and then
they turn on you and then theygo back to being the victim, and
then they turn on you and thenthey go back to being the victim
and then they turn on you again, once you can recognize that in
(18:16):
the moment, you can see it forwhat it is, and, honestly, I
know people who begin to chuckleat that point because it is so
obvious when you don't know whatthe game is, you get sucked
into it and then you're lost.
So where do we go from here?
Knowing this is a big part ofit, but you also have to learn
to trust yourself and knowwhat's true and what's not true
(18:40):
when you're dealing with a toxicperson, one of the most
important things you can do isto separate what's real from
what the manipulation is andwhat that presentation looks
like.
It's crucial to make a list offacts, and I found this very
helpful in a lot of situations.
What things do I know forcertain?
What do I know about thisperson In terms of gaslighting?
(19:01):
Did I actually say that or am Ibeing manipulated?
Not how you feel, but what youknow, and that's important.
Not what you feel, but what youknow.
Write it down.
This is a simple act that cananchor you when your emotions
start getting the best of youand when you start feeling
nostalgic about this person andyou start forgetting all the bad
(19:24):
stuff and why you feel so bad.
This simple act can help youwhen the emotions get
overwhelming and can alsoclarify what's happening versus
what the toxic person is tryingto make you believe.
Another critical part ofnavigating those relationships
is to trust your gut.
We've all been there where thered flags are there.
(19:46):
Our gut is screaming and we'relike ah, it's probably not that
big a deal.
Often, our instincts will alertus before your mind catches up.
If something feels off, itprobably is.
Too many people in toxicrelationships dismiss that gut
feeling, but it's one of ourstrongest tools for survival.
There's a great book by GavinDeBecker called the Gift of Fear
(20:09):
, and he addresses this whereall these people have just kind
of ignored the red flags thatare out there, to the detriment
of their own safety.
So I recommend reading that.
I'll put a link for that hereas well.
Okay, so what are our options?
What are we going to do aboutall of this, in addition to the
things that I've alreadymentioned?
Well, I think when you realizeyou're in a toxic relationships,
(20:33):
you've kind of got three basicpaths forward.
First of all, you can try tofix the other person.
Spoiler alert probably notgoing to work unless they're
willing to engage in seriousself-reflection, own their stuff
and be able to make concessions, apologize.
Only then can they make realchanges.
But you cannot fix them.
(20:54):
That is the ultimate sin of theempath is to think that they
can fix people.
They cannot, and you know thisbecause a lot of people in toxic
relationships say their partner.
They never apologize.
They seem to have littleempathy, and by that I mean when
you're down and you're notfighting back anymore.
They keep kicking, so they canbe very mean.
(21:15):
Your second option, if you can'tfix the person, is how do you
manage the relationship?
Now, this might involve settingup strong boundaries, limiting
contact or finding ways toprotect yourself emotionally
while staying in therelationship, which is a very,
very difficult thing to do and,I might add, a very exhausting
thing to do.
The third option is to createsome space.
(21:38):
Now, in many cases, thehealthiest option is distance,
and even if this is for a week,this doesn't necessarily mean
leaving immediately forever, butit does mean reducing the
influence that that person hason you, and this could also be
just for a short period of time,like I say, for a week or two,
if that person's out of town.
It's also a good way to testthe environment and say you know
(22:00):
, when this person's not around,how do I feel?
That's always a good way tokind of evaluate how much impact
this other person's having onyou.
And here's a tip I foundincredibly helpful for people
struggling with the toxicrelationships and I have a whole
episode discussing this thatI'll leave a link to, and it's
called caring less.
If everything you do seems tomake them unhappy, then stop
(22:21):
trying to please them.
Start doing what you want to doIf you're already going to lose
anyway.
Start doing what you want to doand what makes you happy.
The more you care about theirapproval, the more power you
give them.
So as you start recognizingthings like the drama triangle
and caring less and knowing whatyou know, you start taking a
lot of power back in therelationship.
(22:44):
So, talking about leaving whenis it actually time to leave the
relationship?
When do you know it's time?
This can be a tough decision,but there are a few things to
consider.
Number one is the relationshipabusive?
If it is, that's your answer.
Abuse is a hard line.
Empaths struggle with creatingboundaries because they don't
(23:04):
know what they want.
They actually don't know wherethese boundaries are.
A lot of times they might beable to agree with yeah, if I
get hit, if I get cheated onthose kinds of things, but what
other boundaries?
Name calling, being yelled at,being humiliated in public what
are the boundaries?
So you know where those linesare and when they're crossed and
when you establish thoseboundaries, then you have a
(23:25):
pretty good, clear understandingof when you need to create some
separation.
So number one is therelationship abusive, and that's
verbal as well as physical, andI will say the physical tends
to be a lot easier to identifyand justify leaving.
A lot of people who are inemotionally abusive
relationships make excuses andthey say well, that was just a
(23:47):
one-off and it's not that bad,it's not worth ending the
relationship over, and in somecases I think the emotional has
a lot more long-term damage thanthe physical abuse.
The second thing to consider ifit's time to leave is are you
allowed to be yourself?
If you feel like you have to beconstantly changing who you are
and if you're walking oneggshells all the time, I think
(24:08):
that's a clear sign that thingsare off track and you need to
consider that.
The third thing I would say iswho is your best relationship?
That should be your litmus testagainst all other relationships
.
That person that you know thatyou can be yourself with.
You don't.
There's no pretenses there.
You can be honest, you can bevulnerable and it's always going
to be okay.
When I compare that to thetoxic relationship, usually
(24:32):
you're going to see somethingthat is very night and day and
that is a huge red flag.
But ultimately, leaving a toxicrelationship is about gaining
control of your life andprotecting your mental health,
and you're worth it.
Most people again makeconcessions and they make
excuses for the toxic person.
It's about creating space foryourself to heal, to grow and to
(24:52):
be free from the constantemotional drain that toxic
people create.
And again, I think I said thisin the last episode, but getting
out of a toxic relationship isa very difficult thing to do
because there's that emotionaltie and the addictive piece to
that with the dopamine that youcan go back in here in the
previous episode and that againcauses people to leave a
(25:13):
relationship seven times beforepermanently staying out of it.
It's a very difficult thing todo because there's so much tied
up with that.
So let me leave you with a fewthoughts.
First of all, if you're stuckin a toxic relationship, know
that you have options.
You always have options, thepower that you want.
You can get back wheneveryou're ready to have that Hard
(25:33):
thing to do Simple but not easy.
You you're ready to have thatHard thing to do, simple but not
easy.
You don't have to stay trappedand honestly, you deserve better
.
You know, don't minimize whatyou deserve at the expense of
other people.
It's not easy, but with theright tools, I think you can
break free, you can protect yourmental health and you can
rebuild your own confidence andrebuild your self-esteem and all
the things that these toxicrelationships take away from you
(25:54):
.
Rebuild your self-esteem andall the things that these toxic
relationships take away from you.
So remember the game is alwayson, but you can play it smart by
playing chess and not checkers.
Thanks for tuning into thisepisode of the unscripted mind.
If you found this episoderesonated with you, be sure and
share it with somebody who mightneed to hear it.
And if you're struggling with atoxic relationship and need
(26:14):
help navigating it, don'thesitate to reach out to a
licensed therapist who might beable to guide you through that.
So thanks again for checking usout.
Also, please subscribe, followthis episode, leave a review and
if you have any questions ortopics you'd like us to cover,
please include that also.
Until next time, remember lifedoesn't come with a script.
So embrace the unexpected,cherish the unplanned, always
(26:37):
stay curious and have an amazingday.
We'll see you next time on theUnscripted Mind.
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