Episode Transcript
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Trevor (00:00):
Yo, yo, what's going on
everybody? Welcome to the
(00:02):
unstoppable Marketer Podcastwith me as always is my co host,
Mark goldheart. Mark. What's up,dude?
Mark (00:11):
Hey, what's up? How are
you? Good? And how do you feel
about this whole Barbie Heimerthing?
Trevor (00:19):
Ah, you know, I watched
a I watched a Cisco see that
tonight, but I don't know whichone Barbie but I'm not going
anymore but I suppose to Nick,my wife I heard that. So the big
(00:40):
thing that's happening is it'son the same day. And there's
psychological thing that is, andyou have just one movie, right?
The the decision is, do I go seeBarbie or do I not go see it?
But when you add two really bigmovies together, it's now do I
(01:04):
go see Barbie or do I go see isup up and Oppenheimer,
Oppenheimer. And so now it'snot. It's do I see Oppenheimer
or Barbie? It's not. Should I goto the movies? It's which one do
I go to now? And so I'm reallyactually curious to what it
does. The only thing that
Mark (01:22):
are they saying that's
going to boost overall
attendance because of thefriction
Trevor (01:26):
because you're
eliminating the choice of I'm
not going to go see now you'refeeling like you have to go see
something. The only thing thatI'm interested in, the only
thing that I'm interested in isor I think there's a variable
that is underlying. And withoutgetting too political. Is I've
heard that Barbie has like it'scome out that Barbie has got a
(01:46):
lot of woke like undertones toit. And just recently with other
movies, a lot of woke movieshave not done well. Because of
that. Interesting, so I'mcurious, you know, that's why
I'm like, shoot, if Barbiedoesn't do good. Is it because
of that? Is it cuz it was badmovie? So I am curious about
(02:07):
that
Mark (02:08):
heartache. I just think it
looks dumb. Barbie. Yeah. Um, I
think I think there's this weirdcontagion effect where everyone
has to act like it looks great.
Trevor (02:18):
Well, and they've done a
great job of marketing it. Yeah.
So I think they've done a reallygood job at making you think
that everyone thinks it's gonnabe good, too. Yeah, like, I
Mark (02:24):
don't have any interest in
seeing BB but I am. I'm a
Gosling fan.
Trevor (02:27):
I like Ryan Gosling. I
think he's way funny. I don't
know much about Margot Robbie.
Like, I don't I don't thinkanything good or bad about her.
But my son just came home. Hecame home the other day with
bleached hair. So he bleachedhis head completely. My aunt,
not my aunt, his aunt, my sisterin law, bleached his hair. He
came home, and he looks justlike Ken Barbie. Like he looks
(02:52):
like Ryan Gosling from that,because he's just like, Wait,
skin is so tan. And his facestructure. Why did he play just
here because of that? No, no, hejust bleached his hair because I
think he
Mark (03:07):
because he's been
listening to some insync I wish
man like this album covers. Iwish
Trevor (03:12):
he would have frosted
his tips. If he was listening to
and saying he bleached the wholething. is a big difference, man.
Is it? Yeah. When I was inmiddle school, I was listening
to in sync. So I bleached mytips. If you bleach your whole
head back, then you will rebelbecause that's what Eminem did.
Some shady. Oh, some shady did?
He was yeah, he was completelybleach. So anybody who did that
(03:36):
you're like, well,
Mark (03:38):
they're scary. They're
there. And
Trevor (03:40):
you know, never.
Mark (03:41):
I never did any of that.
No,
Trevor (03:43):
you didn't fall into
peer pressure. No,
Mark (03:45):
I did not. Yeah, um, I
bleached. A little minimal at
once. Okay. Just, you know, justlike the little rat test the
back part.
Trevor (03:54):
Yeah. We should tell my
son we said it for rugby. We
said hey, like your hair isgonna grow out. You can't have
this for school. And he's like,No, this is how my hair he
didn't understand that. It justbleached what was currently on.
And he's having a hard timegrappling with the fact that
that's not the like hispermanent. Oh, yeah. said it's
gonna grow to the real color.
He's a little confused by that.
(04:15):
So
Mark (04:16):
wait, it didn't change
change my biologic. Kenzie was
Trevor (04:19):
like it's gonna grow out
and you can't have for school as
we want. So
Mark (04:25):
So yeah, that is funny.
Well, yeah. Timer looks awesome.
Yeah, Oppenheimer looks reallyinteresting. Just because the
cast is great. The director isgreat. Yeah, Christopher Nolan.
I mean, I think ChristopherNolan's an interesting
conversation that we had just byhimself. Did you know that his
whole life is analog? What doesthat mean? So he does not use
(04:47):
like a cell phone like to callhome phone to get like in touch
with him. Really. He doesn't usea computer that's connected to
the internet. He writes all thislike scripts on a computer, but
it's not interesting. He'ssupposedly that's whatever it
says he's like almost analog andeverything he does interesting.
And I thought, isn't it peculiarthat perhaps the most well
(05:12):
recognized I mean, that's that'sa pretty big statement. Not you
still have Steven Spielberg, buthe's kind of like past his
prime, like, whatever. But rightnow who is the best director you
have? Christopher Nolan. I thinkeveryone would throw him in
there. Scorsese would be tossedin there. He's like, kind of
past his prime though. I'msaying like now.
Trevor (05:32):
His he passed his prep.
Yeah, I guess his last big onewas Irishman was okay. His last
big one was Wall Street.
Mark (05:39):
No, it was his last big
one was. Oh, why can I think of
it? It's with Leonardo with thedeparted.
Trevor (05:47):
No, no. Wolf of Wall
Street.
Mark (05:49):
came out after that. Oh,
yeah, that's true. Yeah, sorry.
I think he meant Wall Street.
Trevor (05:54):
Oh, the wall with
whatever his name is. Yeah. Yes,
The Wolf of Wall Wolf of WallStreet, which was like, within
last six years. Yeah,
Mark (06:02):
I guess that one was
pretty big, too. That's huge.
But I'm thinking, ChristopherNolan. And then like, there's
not a lot of directors that likejust pop out to you. I don't
like Christopher Nolan. Butthat's my point. He educated in
this conversation is my point.
Besides like the old school,like the old guard, like Martin
Scorsese, is part of the oldguard. Got it? Can you name a
new director that you're like, Iwant to see almost every movie
(06:25):
that they make?
Trevor (06:29):
No, but I but asked me
that in the old guard. And all I
would have been able to tell youis Chris are not Christopher
Nolan. Steven Spielberg, or Ijust don't know, directors
enough. Okay. But I understandthe point you're making
Mark (06:42):
in a digital world. Why is
the analog MAN Yeah, the best
storyteller in Hollywood people?
Trevor (06:48):
It's interesting. Why?
Ah, I know. For me, this is thismight be stupid. But the more
content I consume, I feel likethe less creative I get. Okay,
because I try to be like otherpeople that I like. Does that
make sense? Okay. So it takesit, it takes things away from
(07:10):
me. And maybe like mycreativity, so that could be
there could be an element ofthat.
Mark (07:18):
Yeah, there could be, but
I don't know. Well, that's what
I was wondering, is it becausehe's so disconnected that he can
forge his own paths in ways thatothers can't?
Trevor (07:32):
No, it's not influenced
by anything else. But his own
creative mindset?
Mark (07:37):
Well, yeah, for example,
like he hardly uses CGI in any
of his movies. Like that's oneof his trademarks. Like when I
say analog, he's very analog,even in the way he films like he
uses IMAX cameras, like hugerolls of film, really,
Oppenheimer, they said weighed.
Was it over 100 pounds? Thefilm?
Trevor (08:00):
I haven't heard that.
Talmage said it's over16,000 1600 or
Mark (08:04):
16,016 miles or 16 miles.
Yeah. I just I'm curious. Youknow, I think everybody always
chases trends, but it seems likeChristopher Nolan does his own
thing. And does it in a way thatlike stands out. So like he
stands out interesting. In aworld where everything else kind
(08:27):
of like blends together. Yeah.
Like all the Marvel movies, likethey had their novelty. But
nobody cares about the newMarvel movies at all. Well,
Trevor (08:38):
I've heard that now.
Even Disney is pulling back frommaking Marvel's because however,
everything is just blended in.
Like yeah, like nobody. They'repulling back from Star Wars, and
they're pulling back from Marvelfor those reasons, because
there's been so much Star Wars.
So much Marvel, and every newthing that's come out is not
performed. But that could be aDisney problem right now,
because Disney is going through.
Mark (09:00):
They're going through a
identity crisis. Yeah, they're
going through a lot. They ate,they ate the world and now
they're kind of barfing it backup a little bit. Yeah. ate too
much.
Trevor (09:10):
So happens when you
charge too much at Disneyland.
We come back we fight back.
We're not gonna see your movies.
Mark (09:16):
Yeah, I mean, come on
Disney. Executive make it
affordable. Gonna makeDisneyland affordable again.
Trevor (09:22):
That's a good baseball
cap.
Mark (09:24):
It is. Good grief. Yeah.
How to how does anybody affordthat man's for four months of
salary to take a family there?
Trevor (09:34):
Yeah, we went for we
went to Disney and we did it
like the way you would want todo Disney meaning like we stayed
out of Disneyland propertyhotel. We did it in January. So
prices were cheaper. Not on thepark but on the hotels. slow
(09:54):
season, slow season. Like it'slike 15% discount or something
like that. Um, not that slow.
But yeah. And we so we did thatthree days. I think we're there
for three nights. Four days, Iguess it is three days at the
park. We did Park hoppers, fivepeople, my family, three kids.
We ate, and we're like big treatDisney people. So like we do,
(10:18):
like as many treats as possible.
We just do it. And I think wespent just under $6,000 When I
say that out loud, I'membarrassed.
Mark (10:37):
For the listeners. I am
not a Disney person. Trevor is
I'm not we're very yin yang. I'mtrying not to be though. I don't
care for Disney at all. And nojudgments on people who do and
like to go to Disneyland. Andthat's their thing. My
personality is one that I justgo. lagoon here in Utah has just
(11:01):
as good of rides. is so nottrue, but it is true. But we
don't have to get from a rideperspective.
Trevor (11:08):
It's literally you're
just you're just trying to raise
people up. No, it is it is anyYUTAN who's listening to this
thinks you're dumb immediately.
No, no, no, you just lost every
Mark (11:20):
cloud everyone just had.
It's the perception. They justhave a perception in their mind
that Disney has a differentfeeling.
Trevor (11:27):
It's not true. I've had
a season pass to lagoon for the
last like five years of REITsare the same. That's the dumbest
thing you've ever seen. And yougo down. Well, yeah, if that's
an actually better ride
Mark (11:38):
that lagoon right now.
Trevor (11:42):
I guess it depends on
what you mean by that. There are
rides. Look at lagoon This issuch a stupid podcast so far.
No,
Mark (11:50):
because Disneyland is a
theme park lagoon is an
amusement park
Trevor (11:55):
lagoon has like two or
three rides that are like, like,
what the quintessential rollercoaster experience right? I'm
running upside down. My legs aredangling. Yeah. Where Disneyland
does not. You know, they
Mark (12:11):
got they got to do more
rides.
Trevor (12:13):
They had a couple rides
that are like intense. You know,
but not so I guess. Yeah, yeah,there's some
Mark (12:24):
there is some truth to
what I am saying. Strange. Yeah,
I mean, but it hold off though.
When you start to say off thoseMickey Mouse ears when you when
you say amuse now that you're inthe sunk cost bias of going to
Disneyland
Trevor (12:39):
now that you're now that
you've distinguished the
difference between an amusementpark and a theme park, it's
almost even hard to compare itto is you're almost like a
lagoon. It's like a carnival.
Right? Like you're going to acarnival carnival rides. Yeah.
And and just better rollercoasters or like on a pier in
California, and you go toDisneyland, you're waiting in
line for Disneyland. 80% of thelands the magic. I mean, if
(13:00):
you'd like waiting in lines,you're there for those magical
not in January. On Jan hackcurrently, not January, not the
first week. But second, thirdweek,
Mark (13:12):
Disney. I mean, this is a
good segue. So Disney, Walt
Disney created a whole worldaround this perception and this
feeling of storytelling.
Christopher Nolan, nice. I seewhere you're going to do what
you're doing here has alsocreated a whole world but what's
interesting Christopher Nolanright is like there's not like a
unified theme necessarily.
Because he's created these oneoff movies The only franchise
(13:36):
he's really done with Batman.
He's three Batman's buteverything else has been one
movie. Right? Boom, he moves onto the next story. But everyone
follows him because of hisstorytelling ability. Now you
can tell it's a there's themes,obviously, that go to each
movie. Yep, by the way, tenantis great. And all the people who
don't like tenant just didn'tpay attention. I enjoyed it. So
everyone needs go back and watchit again. Because that That
(13:58):
movie is by far his mostunderrated movie. It's
phenomenal.
Trevor (14:04):
I think I could probably
agree with that. I haven't seen
all of his movies, but I couldprobably agree with that. Oh,
it's great. I loved it. You wantto know what you do just a hack,
and then we'll move on becauseyou are connecting the dots to I
gotta finish this because we'vebeen going about nonsense for a
minute here. But watch it withsubtitles. And watch what
(14:26):
happens. Because that was thatwas like, we didn't watch it in
theaters. Because for whateverreason.
Mark (14:32):
It's because COVID happen.
They shut it down and releasedit.
Trevor (14:36):
That's right. That's
right. And then everyone
realized that the movie theateris actually not as fun as it
used to be. There's that as theythought it was and it's cooler
to like get food and watch it atyour house. So we watch it with
subtitles because we heard itwas so loud, like the music and
the background sounds were loudthat it was challenging to hear
the dialogue mixed with theaccents because there's also
(14:59):
accent It's, you know, in thedialogue, such an American thing
to say, very true, but I'm justsaying it as it is. Right? So we
watch it with subtitles. It wasawesome.
Mark (15:11):
Oh, yeah. So, so good.
Connecting the Dots. And sogoing in here, like, let's go,
let's
Trevor (15:17):
do this.
Mark (15:17):
I'm connecting the dots
here, right? This is my ADHD
brain, we're connecting all thedots. But going into marketing,
I think what happens is, a lotof times everyone is chasing
trends and novelty withoutbuilding their own stories. And
without building their ownstorytelling capabilities.
(15:38):
Right. And by chasing all thetrends, people become forgotten.
Yep. Really quickly. And I thinkwe're seeing that in in the
summer. So there was a big trendbecause of tick tock, everybody
moved to UGC and I'm not sayingUGC isn't defined you see user
generated content. So moreorganic looking video content or
(16:00):
even not super organic, but justlike Tic talkie, oh, hey, yeah,
looks like you created it fromyour phone. Yeah, it's like from
your phone. People are talkingto the camera. It's usually you
know, somebody's holding theirphone out or it's on the table,
whatever. Yeah. But what I thinkis happening is that kind of
(16:20):
content is a novelty, and it'sstarting to wear out. And as you
look across at accounts, right,and as we've used our software,
and people have other software'sto look at this, and I know
North beam has awesomeattribution with creative
attribution, their new creativedashboard as well. Yep. You can
see that this UGC content,although it performs from like a
(16:40):
low funnel perspective, likeretargeting, whatever, it's,
it's quickly forgotten. It's notreally telling a story of your
brand in a way that you cancontrol that narrative and
create a story or a brandidentity around it. Yep. You
can't create a brand identityjust around like a bunch of
people talking about you intheir kitchen. Now, it helps
(17:01):
give you social validation.
Right. But it's not really thestorytelling. Like if you if you
look at a Christopher Nolan. Hetells these powerful stories
that resonate. And it doesn'tmatter what the story is, people
go and see it. Yeah, he goesfrom Batman to Oppenheimer. Yep.
And people are gonna go rush tosee that because of him as a
(17:23):
director, like directors justdon't have that kind of poll.
Right. But he does because ofhis ability to maybe avoid the
novelty of digital the digitalrush of consumption. He's not
chasing a trend.
Trevor (17:38):
Well, he's Yeah, he's
made. I think he's made it his
reputation that when you go andsee his movie, you're not
disappointed. Even the peoplewho saw Tennant weren't
disappointed that they went andsought, just confused, just
confused. This episode of TheUnstoppable Marketer Podcast is
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Trevor (19:01):
Geez, I like that. Well,
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(19:24):
my least favorite movie of his,which a lot of people are
actually going to get botheredby when I say this was
Interstellar. Like he was one ofmy least favorites. But I still
enjoyed the fact that I went andwatched that movie. You know
what I mean? Right? Because itwas just so different. It's
consuming. Yeah. Yeah, it wasjust like it was crazy. Yes. So
Mark (19:45):
I learned has made me the
best soundtrack of all time.
Trevor (19:48):
That is true. I actually
listened that soundtrack quite a
bit. When I work. Yeah, but, butto go back into what you're
saying like UGC versusstorytelling. I think that UGC
just to get like Just keep thisconversation kind of going in
this direction is it's it'sdying out, I think there was one
brand that I could think of. Andwhen I say dying out, I mean
that lightly. It's dying out asthe like. It's working the way
(20:12):
it used to work for everybody.
There was one brand who builttheir identity around it that I
can think of, and it was he one,athletic greens. Like that's all
like, that's, I think AthleticGreens did an amazing job at
literally making that theirentire ethos. It was like you
never saw an ad. That wasn'tUGC. So they built their they
did build their brand storyaround people's experience with
(20:35):
the product. But now on the flipside, I can think of a brand
right now who's crushing it. Ithink that this is where and
will they die by it? They might?
It's a good question, becauseI'm not hearing about ag one as
much as I used to. At least not
Mark (20:53):
I mean, you hear on
podcasts. I know Cuber man talks
about it. But yeah, but
Trevor (20:58):
even then I'm not
hearing. I mean, I used to hear
about it. One I used to get,like touched by their
advertising, like crazy. And toit was like I was hearing
influencers talking about it. Iwas hearing just people in my
life talking about how they wereon ag one. But now I'm not. So
like, is it because they haven'tadjusted their strategy?
Mark (21:22):
Well, yeah, I mean, again,
we're not average, we're not
trying to say an advocate thatUGC isn't good. No, no, it's
still part of what you have tobecause you
Trevor (21:31):
said something that was
really important, which is,
we've noticed in ad accountswe've ran and in our own brands
that that UGC is working well,at the bottom of the funnel,
yes. As social validation. Yep.
So what that means guys, frombottom of the funnel perspective
is in an advertising oftentimes,most like most often, someone is
not going to buy from you, thefirst time they hear about you.
(21:53):
So usually, if you are a goodmarketer, and you're doing smart
things is you got pixels thatare tracking these people who
are either consuming yourcontent in app like on meta, you
know, like, scrolling throughInstagram, or whatever it might
be, or they're on your website.
And I know it's a little, youknow, we're with privacy
(22:14):
updates, it's harder to trackthat kind of stuff. But you can
retarget those people who areviewing your who's viewing your
content, you can retarget them.
And that's what we're sayinghere is like, Hey, you might see
an ad that isn't UGC, thatintroduced you to a brand. But
then, when you see usergenerated content, somebody's
talking about, hey, this is whyI drink athletic greens or why I
bought these Nike shoes orwhatever. That's what's working
(22:37):
a little bit more. That's thebottom of the funnel. That's
what we mean by that. Sorry. No.
Well, I was wondering the pointthat you were doing, I was
wanting to apologize. I'll makeanother one. Okay. Do you want
to make a point? After you Sure?
Well, I'm about to move from UGCto something else. No,
Mark (22:52):
I wanted to read a tweet.
So you read it. If if you aren'tright now go follow David Herman
on Twitter. At Herman digital,two R's and two ends and Herman
and you are M A N N, dude,you're really
Trevor (23:07):
good. And I like it.
You're really giving him theshout out digital? Yeah. Well,
he paid I'm just kidding. Hepaid for this paid us a lot of
money for this.
Mark (23:16):
Just kidding. So part of
why we're talking about this is
he he's a legend in the digitalmarketing space. Really great at
what he does in media buying.
And he sent out a tweet todaytalking about this. And he says
that growth marketing has alwaysput the focus on every ad, and
every click has to beprofitable, or else it's a
quote, you know, failedcampaign. Right? And then he
(23:39):
says, We need to look andunderstand that this role is
still part of overall marketing.
Your job is to drive growth, butthat can look different for
every brand, the formula isnever the same. So stop just
regurgitating everything youread here. You're a marketer
first, how does every ad impactbusiness? So then he says, I'm
(23:59):
critical of UGC type ads as themain driver of accounts because
they are so often forgotten bypeople. Right? So this is just
reinforcing what we're talkingabout is this is what we see in
the data. UGC is still plays apart, right? But how are we you
telling bigger story? Sokissick, they have some great,
(24:21):
real thought out. ads they havecreated around brand around
their product. They do have alot of UGC, too. I mean,
everybody if you have Facebookad library, you can go look at
what kind of ads they'rerunning, right? Yep. But they
tell a story, right? They'retelling something that's
significant. And I think a lotof people you see like they
recognize them from those biggerhigh higher production type ads.
(24:46):
Right? Right. So there's a placefor those kinds of ads and they
need to be part of the funneldepending on what where you're
at in a business obviously, yourUGC is a great jumpstart if you
don't have a lot of money. Yeah,cuz you can
Trevor (24:57):
essentially do it for
cost of product. Yeah, right.
That's really all, you know,sometimes people charge you and
pay you. But sometimes you canjust get away with saying, Hey,
can I send you XYZ and hope thatis kind of like a hope and a
prayer. And there's data thatsays, like, you're gonna get 30%
of the people who that use whoyou send it to, who will
actually post about it, and thenallow you to, you know, it's
(25:17):
like 30% will actually postabout it. And then of that, 30%
You know, you got like another50%, who's gonna let you use it,
and kinship as like an add.
Yeah, that's like, pretty. Ithink those that data is where
I've got from kinship. Yeah.
Mark (25:31):
And Cody, like, you can go
follow them on Twitter, but so
there's a great place for it,right? Yeah. UGC is something
you still have to be doing. Likewe're not advocating for that.
But But I think the conversationaround like storytelling. How do
you create a story around yourbrand?
Trevor (25:46):
Yeah, there's a brand I
want to call out that's crushing
this right now that I likethey're the most intoxicating
brand on on Tik Tok Instagram.
Like, every everybody who'sinterested in marketing and
storytelling should be followingthese people. And they are going
to, they're leading this trend.
And that brand is middaysquares. So midday squares is
(26:08):
the healthy candy chocolatecompany. So they're taking on
Mars and Nestle. And, you know,like, there's like the Big Five,
like chocolate companies. Yeah,in the world. And these guys are
like I said, they're healthierversion of it. And they are, you
(26:31):
just go in and they've got I'mgonna look them up right now,
actually, to see because I'mcurious about how many views
they've got organically on TikTok. But they're doing
storytelling, so cool. They'rewalking through the entire
journey of how we're taking onthese, like, five big people.
And so now and they go intoeverything, like they'll go
(26:52):
into, like, founders personallife to somebody hacking.
They're like, somebody hackedtheir URL and turn their website
into a porn website. You know,and they're like, I mean,
they're telling all of thesestories, they're talking about
how their founders gettingmarried, and everyone's
following the stories that andsometimes have nothing to do
(27:12):
with the chocolate. You know,but but their stories? Yeah, but
they're selling. They're sellinghundreds of millions of
chocolate bars. Their goal is tobe $100 million company.
They're, they're in the eightfigures. Now. They've only been
around for two years. It'scrazy. organically, they've got
4.6 Million Likes like that's,that's crazy. For a company to
(27:35):
or a company to organically havethat much. That's not crazy for
like a creator. But they havethey have company they have
creator numbers, as a company asa company. Yeah. And it's
because their storytelling. Idon't see a lot of UGC, from
these guys, either in their ads,or you don't I don't
Mark (27:56):
see, I mean, it's
interesting to think about
right, I think, going back tothe Christopher Nolan example.
It's, we're not saying don'tchase trends. Because Funny
enough, even the guy who tweetedthis, Dave Herman, he, he has
another tweet a couple of daysago, talking about if you can
capture a trend, and justquickly make creative around a
trend you can, that's an easywin. So we're not saying in the
(28:19):
advertising game, don't chasetrends, like don't ever do them.
But you also have to find a wayto be, you know, like a
Christopher Nolan, how do youhave your main pillar of content
and storytelling that you canstand on,
Trevor (28:33):
which essentially
becomes evergreen, right? When
you find your own content tostand on, and you start kind of
leading a trend, and maybe noteven leading a trend, maybe it's
not even starting the trend, butit's like doing something just
that's different. Yeah, thatstands out. I think that there's
like this critical piece thatyou have to dedicate, you should
dedicate the majority of yourbusiness to figuring that piece
(28:54):
out. But then you have a smallsubset of your business that
does that does try to capitalizein an early stage of a trend.
Right? Versus like, getting onlike, just now starting to do
UGC. Yeah, for example, notsaying that it's not going to
work. But you should, but yeah,you should try it, but it's
(29:15):
definitely not going to yieldthe same results. Had you done
that? Four years ago?
Mark (29:20):
Right, right, when it was
taking off? Exactly. It's not
going to give you when you sayresults, the ROI.
Trevor (29:26):
Yeah. And there's even
an even kind of discussion to
say that like UGC is I thinkgoing to be around forever. The
same way that influencermarketing is it's always going
to be around same when you usereviews announced. Exactly. It's
always going to be there, it'sgoing to be just less impactful,
you know, but people are goingto find new ways to make it more
impactful. So like, for example,it used to be super impactful to
(29:50):
and it still is in to degree butnot as much to pay an influencer
money upfront to post about you.
And then you'd see a lot ofresults like you go back and
that was working So much betterthan a lot of times it is now.
Now, a lot of people are usinginfluencers for UGC. Like that's
how they use so. So it's like,things just kind of change and
alter, you know. And thenthere's trends within trends.
(30:11):
Like right now a big thing thatI'm seeing in a lot of user
generated content ads is theheadline. And the hook is four
reasons. For reasons I regretbuying this. So that's the hook
and the reverse psychology andthen the four things are
actually really positive. Butit's like, I regret I, you know,
four reasons I regret buying a,you know, ag one. I don't know
(30:35):
why we're why I'm doing ag one,right? For reasons I regret
buying ag one, one, because Ifeel so good in the mornings,
too, you know, so it's like yousay it like it's,
Mark (30:48):
I feel so good in the
mornings. And it bugs me. Yeah,
yeah. Like,
Trevor (30:51):
I'm super extra happy in
the morning. Yeah, bugs. My
wife, you know, I, I used to bea night or I used to, like, have
a hard time getting up. And nowI can get up super easy. And I
don't need my coffee, orwhatever. Yeah, right. I don't
get to enjoy. So there's trendswithin these trends, that you
can kind of still like,capitalize within UGC. And just
any other trend as well. Butyeah, but yeah, but yeah.
Mark (31:18):
Yeah, I think I think it's
just an interesting using this
like cultural event of BarbieHeimer. Just to think about how,
how things are perceived and howyou make an actual, like, mental
impact on the way someone thinksabout what you are.
Trevor (31:34):
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I
think that
Mark (31:37):
because Barbie has done a
great job of this for marketing.
Like you said, I think a lot ofpeople are hyped on Barbie,
because of this momentum they'vecreated from marketing and
social media efforts.
Trevor (31:49):
It feels like everyone's
talking about, but I don't know
if everyone is.
Mark (31:56):
I don't know. Like, yeah,
like, that's not the kind of
movie that interests me verymuch. Yeah. I don't know. I'll
have to ask my wife if she'sinterested in going but I am not
particularly interested in it.
But man, it feels like everybodyin the world is interested in
going and seeing it. Yeah.
Because of their their efforts.
So that perception is like, oh,man, this has so much momentum,
(32:16):
like you said, Are you going tomake a decision on on which one
to see? And I'm and I and ifI'll bet you the Barbie camp is
the one that came up with thiswhole Barbie Heimer thing to
start creating like the thetension between the two movies.
But how do you createperceptions and storytelling in
a way that can stand the test oftrends? Trends matter? Still
(32:39):
doing but how do you do it? Ithink, you know, we probably
need to invite our good friendJacque Spitzer back on. Yeah. To
talk a little bit more aboutstorytelling again, going back
to our conversation with him.
Because brands can bemultifaceted in their
storytelling. Yeah, there can behumor, even if you're a serious
(33:01):
brand. Yep, there can beseriousness even if you are a
light hearted brand. Yeah. Buthow do you blend those together
and create a story thatresonates with somebody? Yeah.
at a human level?
Trevor (33:13):
Yeah, I think that one
of the things that like I recall
from jocks podcast with us thathe talks about a lot is like
where they tend to start withtheir storytelling. So one thing
he said is that I think they putin like, between all their
copywriters, they put in like 30hours of like, hooks and story
(33:34):
like storylines. So like,they'll give an assignment to
all their team, and they spendeach of them spend hours. So
it's not like, one person isworking 40 hours on the story.
It's like, Hey, you got 20People who are working, you
know, two hours each on this,and they kind of come together.
Like, that's kind of how he saidit. But one thing he said was we
(33:57):
always start with, like, what isthe customer's why? And that's
how you start around a goodstory. You know, so it's like,
Hey, if you as a company builtit for this reason, you got to
ask the question, Why? Why isthe customer going to buy from
you? Like, why does the customerwant or need or feel like he or
she needs that. And then that'swhere you start the basis of
(34:18):
that story. And from there,like, the other thing is like, I
can pull, like, I'll pullanother like, kind of clip, like
our snippet from a guest that wehad on the podcast a while back,
which was Ben Xaver. From seekthe protein. I don't know if you
remember what he said. But he'salso they're also a company
(34:39):
who's done a really great job atstorytelling and, and getting
organic views and thentranslating that into paid views
really well. And he said that,as you begin storytelling, what
you just have to do is you haveto just try a bunch of stuff
until you figure out the formatthat works for you. Which is
(35:02):
interesting if you go back tothe Christopher Nolan even
though Christopher Nolan is isvery, like different from
everybody else. You can watch amovie. And know it's a
Christopher Nolan without seeingthe name behind the movie. Yeah,
is that fair enough? Right? He'sgot a style. He's got a format
(35:25):
that he has figured out in hisstorytelling that works for him.
Amy surgery? I mean, from theBatman's to the ception
intersection inception to theperson who was at prestige,
right. He did prestige right orwhen did he know? He did
proceed? I think yes. Yeah. Wasthe prestige.
Mark (35:46):
There was those two that
were so similar. The
Illusionist, illusionist, Carol
Trevor (35:49):
who The Illusionist was
by prestige, and you go all the
way back to what was that one hedid with Robin Williams, who was
a serial killer. And Robert DeNiro and De Niro. Yeah. Like one
of his. I mean, they're all justlike,
Mark (36:03):
up in Alaska. What is that
one? Calm? Totally slipping me
right now. But yeah, that one'sgreat.
Trevor (36:08):
Yeah, that one's crazy.
Right? So yeah, but they allhave a format. So it's like,
find your format, test it, findyour format of storytelling, and
figure out what sticks and andstart to run with that. Because
then you can kind of brandyourself as well, because you
also don't want to just becreating stuff. That's so wildly
different, that somebody whosees you a second time can't
recognize that it's you.
Mark (36:29):
Yeah, as well. Yeah. And I
think, from a philosophical
standpoint, when, when DavidHerman is talking about, hey,
you know, the, here's thistrend, like UGC, but like,
ultimately, you're a marketer,right? And you're supposed to be
creating things, I think thelesson there is like, you have
(36:51):
to be a force of action. So,yes, there's trends, yes,
there's all these things. But ifyou want to find your own voice,
you have to use your voice inorder to find it. And
eventually, that's a creativeprocess of going through it,
right. And then you'll find theformula that works for you.
Right? But ultimately, you can'tbe chasing everybody else's
voice and trying to mimic them.
Yeah, to find your own.
Trevor (37:12):
It's so true man, like,
just me as a content creator,
not even talking like this adgame. And because like, I run
into that all the time, like,where you just you watch what
everyone else is doing. And likeI said, the very beginning like,
oh, that's working. Let me tryit. Yeah, I'm gonna try this,
you know, but it's like, that'snot me, or, you know, or that
worked really unique to himbecause of how he did it, or how
(37:34):
she did it. And so it's, I thinkthat companies need to put more
time and attention into content.
I mean, that's like, it reallythe content is the only the only
thing that really matters from astandout perspective anymore.
Mark (37:47):
Yeah. And being creative
about it. I think about Nike all
the time, man, like Nike, at onepoint wasn't that big of a deal?
Right. And they became a bigdeal, because of I mean,
obviously, the Michael Jordan,which is, you know, creator
lead, yeah, marketing, somethinglike that really helps your
brand. But also all of theirmain slogans that they've used
(38:09):
throughout the years, like, justdo it. Right, that was a
creative process to come up withthat, you know, like, they're
not saying they're chasingeveryone else's trend, right?
They were trying to come up withsomething to be their banner.
And a lot of I think brandssometimes try to skip that part.
Like, what's the what's theflag, you're going to fly? And
what's the banner that you'regoing to operate underneath?
(38:31):
Yeah. And then how do you drawpeople to that? And how do you
relate to them? What's theirwhy? Yeah, yeah, dude, I
Trevor (38:38):
used to think when I was
a CMO, I used to chase what our
competitors were doing all thetime. Like, I used to look at
our competitors all the time.
And not to say that like, not tosay that that's not important to
look at them and maybe beinspired by them. But I remember
spending so much time looking atcompetitors and just seeing
like, Oh, they're doing this weshould do now oh, this is how
they're doing it. Let's try thatnow. You know, versus just like,
(39:00):
paving your own path and havinga creative team or a creative
outlet that thinks about thingsuniquely to you.
Mark (39:13):
Yeah, you know, and I
wonder I think, you know, and
then we can wrap this up, butgoing back to finding your
voice. I wonder if a ChristopherNolan looks at other movies as
compared competition? Or does hejust watch other movies? You
know what I mean? Like whenyou're talking about art
directors find each other asmuch as competition I'm sure
(39:35):
they do. To some extent, there'sthere they are competitive
people by nature if you're thatsuccessful, but are they so
focused on what they do? Theyjust look at something else. And
they're like, Oh, that was nice.
That was my style. I learnedsomething from it.
Trevor (39:49):
It's a good question.
Mark (39:50):
I don't know. I'm curious.
Trevor (39:51):
I think the best people
probably do look at it that way.
I think the best in the in anybusiness. They couldn't get
caught up in what everyone elseis doing. Name name, name, a
company, or a creator, that isso successful, that copied what
someone else was doing. Thereare people who are almost
(40:13):
becoming as big as Mr. Beast.
Mark (40:16):
I mean, you have you have
trends, right? So I think about
like Saturday Night Live castmembers, like so let's take the
you know, like the early 90s orwhatever. So you have Adam
Sandler and David Spade, andChris Farley. So you have these
guys. And they all kind of havethat style, but different. So
(40:41):
like, is that a trend? I don'tknow. But also like a different
medium.
Trevor (40:46):
I mean, has there been
massive? Like, are there big
name comedians that have comeout of Saturday Night Live since
those people? I mean, there areI know that are Andy Sandberg.
Yeah, there are a handful ofthem, but not the way it was
between now. The Adam Sandler isthe Chris Farley's the will
Farrells the was Will Ferrellpart of 75. Yeah, I mean, she's
(41:09):
like, but we haven't seen toomany big people. You No, not. I
just I did. I'm telling you.
They're in
Mark (41:16):
movies. But they're not. I
don't know. Maybe I'm getting
old. But like, I don't thinkthey have the name power.
Trevor (41:22):
Yeah, I just think we
live in such a, I just think we
live in such a and we can end onthis note. Like, I think we live
in such a noisy world. That inorder to stand out effectively,
you have to put more time intobeing different. And then
(41:46):
doubling down on the quality ofthat. Yeah, so you can spit out
the quantity of it. Of thecontent to figure out what
sticks.
Mark (41:56):
But you need to have more
of an impact upon contact.
Trevor (42:00):
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm
like, I mean, dude, this podcast
has been great. For me, I'm justthinking about how I want to do
do things differently than howwe create content. But one thing
I would challenge people to dois to like, stop looking at your
competitors for a minute, like,stop following the social media
gurus. Stop. I know, I told youguys to go look at Monday
(42:21):
squares and be inspired, butdon't be inspired to do what
they do. You know, be inspiredto do it your way. You know, I
think that all of us could dowith just chilling out on what
we consume. And spend 30 daysjust brainstorming what you can
do different.
Mark (42:40):
Little dopamine rings.
Yeah.
Trevor (42:43):
Because that might, that
might be the only thing you need
is just to stop being inspired.
And to start actually gettinginspired.
Mark (42:54):
Mm, yeah, that's deep.
Right. Don't stop being don'tstop believing. Don't stop
believing.
Trevor (43:05):
All right. Anything else
you want to leave everyone with?
Sorry, we talked about moviesfor so long and then amusement
parks.
Mark (43:16):
It was needed. Disneyland
is overrated. I hope everyone
has a great week. If you'd likeDisneyland, it's fine.
Trevor (43:25):
We can argue it is
getting overrated is true. But
it's over. I agree. I agree. Iwon't be spending the money I
spent this year on Disneylandnext year.
Mark (43:38):
No, you won't. And that's
a fact. That's a fact. But
storytelling, think about howyou can create an impact in the
world and we're gonna bethinking about it too. Yeah.
Trevor (43:50):
Thank you so much for
listening to the unstoppable
Marketer Podcast. Please go rateand subscribe the podcast
whether it's good or bad. Wewant to hear from you. Because
we always want to make thispodcast better. If you want to
get in touch with me or give meany direct feedback. Please go
follow me and get in touch withme. I am at the Trevor Crump on
(44:10):
both Instagram and Tiktok thankyou and we will see you next
week.