December 10, 2024 • 43 mins
What if the key to unlocking your brand's potential lies in the unexpected performance of Meta's ads? Discover how brands are navigating the digital marketing maze amidst rising costs and perceived underperformance, yet finding surprising success through improved conversion rates on Meta. We delve into the shifting landscape where organic reach is declining, urging brands to rethink their audience engagement strategies. In this episode, we explore essential tactics for maintaining a robust organic presence, drawing inspiration from successful brands that have mastered this art.
We highlight the importance of adapting advertising strategies to align with evolving user behaviors and platform trends. Our insights suggest innovative ways to experiment with ad placements and budget allocations, ensuring that brands remain competitive in a rapidly changing environment. The conversation underscores the need for a nuanced approach to media buying and ad management, emphasizing that while paid ads remain vital, understanding the shifting digital terrain is key to sustaining growth.
Prepare to transform your e-commerce strategy by embracing the power of word-of-mouth and diverse marketing approaches. We discuss the importance of organic growth as a long-term strategy, akin to a consistent vitamin regimen, and its pivotal role in customer journey mapping. The episode also touches on the complexities of programmatic advertising and how brands can balance efficiency with volume to maintain profitability. By focusing on the right audience and leveraging both organic and paid traffic, brands can effectively navigate the challenges of declining organic reach and fluctuating ad costs. Join us for a deep dive into these strategies and how they can revolutionize your approach to digital marketing.
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
it's hard when you're not winning at all and you jump
it into meta and meta is notworking, to then invest more
into google, right like you'regetting in this spot where
you're like we don't have themoney to spend and so sometimes
you can nab up some of thatlower.
I hate using the word lowhanging fruit, but I think
everyone understands it yeah,it's not low hanging in the
sense that it's easy, right,it's just.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
It's just there's demand yeah exactly so capture
the demand that's already there.
Where when social ads is greatat creating demand, but
sometimes your problem solutiontype products.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Yeah, there's so much demand already there you don't
need to create it, so just jumpin, nab it up and then start
creating more.
Yo, what's going on, everybody?
Welcome to the Unstop.
Yo, what's going on, everybody.
Welcome to the UnstoppableMarketer Podcast.
What was that Wish?
With me, as always, is MarkGoldhart, my lovely co-host,
(00:54):
who's growing his hair back out.
It looks like Unintentionally.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, it's unintentional, but it's
happening, I guess.
Unintentional, but it'shappening, I guess.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
We missed last week.
It's Black Friday week prep andwe just were crazy and
traveling.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
It was a no-go.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Los Santos.
Very sorry, how are you?
We made it.
You're listening to thispost-Black Friday.
We did it.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
It's over, finally.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, I think that is my eighth black friday in the
industry and it was by far themost interesting yeah, I don't
know how many it's been for me.
(01:44):
It's probably been seven six.
Maybe you're maybe like one ortwo behind.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So a grand total of, call it, you know, 15.
15 together, so no not thatmuch.
Yeah, it was crazy.
How did?
How was Black Friday Like?
What's your take on blackfriday?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
um, interesting take.
I guess my hot take is thatmeta actually worked pretty well
, despite rising cpms, despiteyou know the narrative online
that everything's getting worse.
Right, we saw across the boardmeta perform pretty similar year
(02:32):
over year, if not slightlybetter, from a conversion rate
standpoint okay, that's what Iwas gonna say, define what you
mean.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
So you're saying well , just like efficiency, yeah,
like just overall efficiency ofof meta traffic.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Meta ads was was pretty solid, but we did see
some interesting trends andwe've been spotting these trends
for a couple of weeks, monthsbut and those trends are
concerning going into the q1yeah so that's.
That's why it was an interestingweek Like I think we probably
(03:07):
hoped for better for some and itdidn't pan out Like others did
way better than expected orprojected.
Sure, but overall it wasn'tthis huge negative month Like,
oh, this didn't work.
Yeah, you got the vibe that alot of people it felt like some
people were kind of thudding, asthey say Doomsday, like meta's
(03:30):
broken, it's not working.
But there is something brokenin meta, but I don't think it's
the ads.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, my big takeaway was it was your dollars did not
go as far from a trafficperspective, but the behavior
was exactly what you hoped it tobe once you got it.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Well, and the behavior was often better.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, exactly, it was better.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
So like the conversion rate, that we saw
conversion rates.
Yeah, buying was up trafficslightly.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
so I mean, when I say down, I'm saying like the cost
per to get click yeah was higheryes, which meant that a
thousand dollars normally wouldget you x amount, only got you,
but 20 conversion rates werehigher, less.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah across the board conversion rates were higher,
yeah, so yeah, I thought thesame thing.
So for the accounts that wereslightly down or maybe make
missed projections, like we, welooked into it and maybe this is
you, I don't know, out there toour listeners, to our loyal
listeners.
Maybe you were down, maybe youweren't as good as expected.
(04:43):
What we saw in accounts wasdirect traffic.
It is very influenced by ads,but direct traffic was down.
Referral traffic was down yeahand that's what is interesting
about what's broken in meta isit's.
I think a lot of people lean onsaying it's the ads, because
that's the Shiny object, rightlike that's the thing that grows
(05:07):
you the fastest.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It's the right thing.
You can control on a dailybasis traffic yeah but Across
the board.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
We know that most clients are experiencing a huge
decrease this year in organicreach.
Yeah, yeah, they're just notreaching their followers the way
they could in past BlackFridays, and so You're having to
make some of that up throughads.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, I mean.
Well, I'm sure a lot of peopleRealize this, but just in case
you don't, when you're Drivingorganic traffic, that is a pool
that you Can tap into from apaid ads perspective, and that
pool is becoming less and lessand less, so you're having to
(05:53):
manufacture that pool throughpaid ads, whereas in the
previous years that pool wasjust naturally higher.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And so the question is yeah, and ads could retarget
engaged audiences exactly right,so the more reach and
engagement you got.
Obviously your ads are gonnalook, quote better, yep, and
perform better.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
But and the brands that have a good organic
presence that we worked with.
Those were the brands that wereup.
Those are the brands that werethat one.
Yeah, yeah, like a much higherratio this year.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, like we have a few clients that were up a
couple hundred percentages, youknow, yeah, so, yeah, so those
kinds of clients have somevirality to their organic game.
Yeah, right now that othersdon't, and but that's I mean,
that's just like a.
(06:52):
I mean we're not going to giveyou guys a good solution to that
.
We talk about it a lot.
Yeah, because it is concerningto see why your people's
reachers is just so down, I meanacross the board.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Do you think it's the platforms fault or do you think
it's how people create content?
I mean, obviously there's both.
I think the end, like you, getthe safe answers both.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
But well, my hot take is it's not the platform's
fault.
Um, it's not.
Yeah, it's not the platform'sfault and it's not?
Yeah, it's not the platform'sfault and it's not the
business's fault, it's theconsumer's fault.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Elaborate consumers.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
So there's a little hint in your ads account.
So if if you have access to yourads account, go look up your
over the last little while,especially over like Black
Friday and like maybe OctoberNovember time period, if you
want to go back further, and youcan even go back even further
than that but go look at yourCPMs by placement and go look at
(08:01):
how much CPMs just in Instagramfeed have gone up and go look
at how much cpms just aninstagram feed have gone up.
Now, what people don't, may notrealize about a cpm metric is
that that is just a supplydemand metric, right, that is
how many the demand ofadvertising dollars going into
it and the supply of eyeballs,yep.
(08:22):
Well, reels and stories acrossthe board, especially reels have
had a much, much, much cheaperCPM.
Yes, behavior has been in thepast, buying behavior was a
little less or a lot less inreels, but I'm seeing that
starting to shift towards reels,yeah, and so a hypothesis that
(08:43):
we're going to be testing out isI think that consumers are just
spending way more time on reels.
I don't think people arescrolling the feed anymore, even
though that's where all themoney's going yeah so I think
we're seeing a change in dynamicof and that's also why you
(09:03):
don't get reach right likeyou're't get reach right, like
you're not getting reach becausethere's not as many people
spending time on feed RightScrolling through their who
they're following yeah, for sure.
They're jumping into reels ormaybe they're going through
stories.
Yeah, so the consumer like Idon't I don't think this is
(09:23):
necessarily like meta conspiringagainst advertisers, I just
think it's I don't you wouldthink that their platform would
catch up with that and realizethat, hey, maybe we should
distribute, especially if you'reusing, like automatic
placements, cause for a longtime automatic placements at
(09:46):
least in the last year, they'vebeen great, but we played around
depending on the account, andif we saw these trends in an
account, we use some manualplacements and those worked
great.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
After we realized that, oh, in some accounts reels
was far out performing.
Yeah, feed and cpms were sohigh in feed that not only was,
were you getting a better costper result in a reels placement,
you were also getting moreclicks, yeah.
So if you're getting more clicks, better cost pers, then that
(10:20):
helps you down funnel too rightso whether this is just a glitch
because of black friday inoctober in the election or
whether this is a trend willprobably pan out in the next two
months I mean I, I, to meeverything signs.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Why I say that it's not a glitch, because we've been
seeing it with accounts for awhile yeah, oh yeah.
I mean we saw like we have somebrands whose best cpa months
were spring and they were theworst cpa months they've had,
and the biggest thing that wecan pull back and look at is
that was like roughly rightaround when their organic reach
(11:00):
just took the biggest nosed dive, yep, so, which is a bummer?
Yeah, I mean the point, thepoint, I think that.
But you have to, we have toevolve yeah, and I think we, we
I know you said you didn't wantto do this and we won't dive
deep into it, but the point it,like mark and I talk about this
quite a bit um, like weobviously run paid ads, like we,
(11:21):
we are paid ad experts, that'swhat our agency does Um, so paid
ads isn't going anywhere.
It's still, critically, thebest way to grow and scale.
But I just think today therewas the like final straw or this
weekend was the final straw tome that for most people, paid
(11:44):
ads, loans, paid ads alone justwon't cut it.
There's definitely some brandsout there that it can and will.
So don't come after me, causethere's some brands out there
who's like that's all we do andwe were right.
If you're a, if you are aproblem solution product, you
know yeah, I guess that kindkind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I guess my only pushback on that is it's not
that paid ads won't cut it, it's, I think media buying is
becoming a little bit harder.
So I think the first six monthsof this year it was like the
easiest thing ever yeah, yeah,because that's when broad
started to become yeah, like Imean you had 12 months, like
(12:25):
maybe end of last year goinginto this year, where it became
easier, like broad worked yeahbut something happened over the
last six months and I think ithas more to do with user
behavior than it has to do withlike meta changing something
algorithms or whatever, yeah,and so, yes, but cause again,
like we have brands that it'sbasically paid ads does
(12:47):
everything for, yeah, yeah, andthey and they're killing it.
But it's going to take a lotmore nuance in how you are
running ads.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Like you can't like if you're just using broad, if
you're just doing these thingsand just expecting it all to
work all the time withouttesting new to new funnel and
flows, yeah then you're probablygoing to be in trouble yeah and
another example of that is likehey, ads are going to work for
you, but sometimes social adsaren't the best thing for you
(13:19):
yeah, yeah, we've moved a lot ofpeople not completely out of
meta, but we've pulled a lot ofpeople's meta budget and dumped
it over into the google side ofthings yeah depending on what
your industry you're in.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, I've seen a lot of really good success that way
or your product positioningyeah, so like these are kind of
newer clients that that we'vehad, where sometimes you go,
it's just it.
It's not that social ads can'twork for you, but it's just.
It's like people are searchingfor this.
Like this is a, this is aproduct, problem solution
(13:54):
product.
That's kind of more of a nichecommunity.
Like, yeah, like social ads mayor may not work in the in the
long run, but they've've alwaysstruggled.
Like they've gone through fiveagencies, yeah, struggling.
So it's like well, google adsis going to be right and you
look at their google account,you can and you're like dissect
it and say oh actually, whyaren't you just running google?
(14:14):
yeah, you can actually grow ongoogle.
There's still tons of lift, butyou're just bidding on brand
terms right now.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
That's why there's no incrementality and you can
maximize what's happening overin Google.
And as soon as you start to getthat engine flowing, you can
start to reinvest to create moredemand.
On the meta side of things,right, whereas it's hard when
you're not winning at all andyou jump it into meta and meta
is not working.
To then invest more into GoogleRight, like you're, you're
(14:43):
getting in this spot whereyou're like we don't have the
money to spend and so sometimesyou can nab up some of that
lower I hate using the wordlow-hanging fruit, but I think
everyone understands it likethat the search terms there
people are like if I'm searchingfor.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, it's not low-hanging in the sense that
it's easy, right, it's just,it's just there's demand yeah
exactly so capture the demandthat's already there.
Yeah, where social ads is greatat creating demand, but
sometimes your your problemsolution.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Type product so, yeah , there's so much demand already
there, you don't need to createit, so just jump in, nab it up
and then start creating moreyeah, because you're kind of,
you're trying to compete and alot of times these have low aovs
too right, that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
It's like you got low aov, you got a lot of one-time
purchasers or you know, whateverthe situation might be, it's
like, yeah, maybe meta ads isn'tgoing to cut it for you yeah
unless you have the creativepotential or the virality of
organic.
And yeah you know, multipliersforce, multipliers is what we
(15:40):
call them yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
But nonetheless, like , like you said, with the on the
meta side of things, I think,um, I think investing in an
organic strategy is is justcritical.
Like I said, we talk about itall the time.
It's not just going to behelpful because it's going to
help you retarget, but it's alsoa great way to test creative
right, like, where does themajority of your wasted budget
(16:04):
go in meta?
Oftentimes, for brands, it'stesting that creative, you know,
which is a good thing.
Right, you want to test theright stuff to then double down
on it.
But when you find winners inthe organic side, yeah, those
generally become winners on thepaid side, so you can kind of
cut through some of that yeah, Idon't want to call it wasted
spend, because that spendoftentimes is very important.
(16:26):
You know you got to figure outwhich ones win.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, it's tough sledding out there, man.
I mean on the organic sideespecially, which then parlays
over into oh, like my ads aren'tdoing as good.
It's like, well, you know, onceyou hit a certain point, like
your ads are just not going toperform the same because you
don't have a pool of thisorganic people that have engaged
(16:51):
with you once or twice.
Right, that you're essentiallyretargeting, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
And organic isn't just like you creating yourself
organic content.
Organic is also other peopletalking about you too.
You can look at it that way,more borrowed, I guess, like
sometimes we call that borroweddistribution.
Yeah, collaborations which youcan user, generated content yeah
, and you can.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
You can you turn that engine on from selling more
products too?
Yeah, right, I mean, a lot, of,a lot of people have a ton of
tagged content that they nevereven look at.
Yeah, yeah, or touch, or notice.
Like they don't even know thatthey have like five Bigger
people that have posted aboutthem.
(17:33):
Sometimes you know totally.
Yeah, so go look at who'stagging you.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, Make sure you have somebody's monitoring that
there's a there's a good appthat monitors, that monitors
that for you.
That there's a good, there's agood app that monitors that
monitors that for you.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
So like, obviously it's really easy in like on
instagram to see who tags you injust by in a feed that tag just
going over to the tag section.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
But there's been a big like a decrease in people
tagging in posts and peopletagging stories, and so there's
an a shopify app called archiveand there's a freemium version
of it and the paid version, Ithink, is super cheap.
It's probably like totally lessthan like $60 a month, but
that's a great way you can.
(18:12):
You can get access to storieseven after they've they've ended
, like right, stories are only24 hours, but archive will hold
those things and archive themfor forever and then you can
just reach out to those peopleand work with them, use that
content in ads, but go try thatapp out.
It's a good one.
Bada bing, bada boom.
(18:32):
Like that Archive you shouldsponsor the podcast At.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Archive.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Is that what it is?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I don't know, I was trying to, though.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Oh yeah, just go to the Shopify app store and type
in archive and you'll find it.
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Speaker 2 (20:01):
Like make sure you're looking at those, because those
posts and if you're tagged, youcan always reach out to them.
That's ad content.
If they're getting betterengagement, you might be able to
analyze hey, what are theydoing?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
send them more yeah, yeah, send them more product.
Send more people product too.
Guys like what a great like,what like when we run surveys
for people, uh, generally, ifyou have a good product, one of
the top three marketing channels.
When we run surveys for peoplegenerally, if you have a good
product, one of the top threemarketing channels, when we ask
the question how did you hearabout us?
How did you first hear about us?
You know your product's reallygood.
(20:33):
If the you know top two tothree responses is like someone
referred me, you know, friend orfamily member.
So what Mark was saying is likehey, the way you can sell more
is when you sell more, when yougive out content, that is,
advertising dollars.
That's a great way to spendmoney.
If you're like hey, I only have$25,000 or $50,000 a month,
(20:56):
take $5,000 or $10,000 of thatand give it away.
Give it away, give it away.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Give it away now.
Need it away.
Give it away.
Give it away now we're notchili peppers.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah so yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
They are red hot.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, what else?
Anything else learnings fromBlack Friday?
Anything you want to just ventabout in the e-commerce space
right now?
Get off your chest, no.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Not really yeah I'm not much of a venter, you know
yeah doesn't change thesituation, yeah, but I think,
knowing that, what can you do?
Okay, so maybe your organicisn't going to pick up in the
(21:46):
next one or two months, probablywon't right and I think that's
the problem.
Right, like organic is avitamin pill, it's going to take
a while to see benefits.
Like it's a, it's a nutritionalregimen term it's a long term.
You'll feel the benefits afteryou keep a schedule right, like
for a while.
Yeah, very unlikely.
You're going to just like startturning up your organic engine
(22:09):
and seeing the engagement andthe reach that you want yeah,
even if you hired somebodytomorrow.
So what can you do?
Well, it's really time to startthinking about just clicks and
engagement and top funnelmetrics that a lot of people
forget in the e-comm world.
Like everyone's looking fordirect attribution, I want a
(22:33):
click and purchase within sevendays or whatever.
But now it's time to say, okay,let's take a step back, and this
is my prediction for quarterone in 2025.
The good ones are going to takea step back and say, hey, costs
(22:53):
have risen in meta and meta'sstill performing, but we also
have a bigger approach here.
We just mean we just need moretouch points with people and
introductions.
Yeah, how do we get thoseintroductions?
Is it going to be through aplatform like x?
Is it?
(23:14):
Is tiktok going to start beingbetter for that kind of content
where, hey, we're going to getbetter cost pur, like TikTok has
been kind of fluky.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Has not been consistent in the way meta has,
which is why and we'veespecially seen a little dip
recently.
Yeah, yeah.
And so where are you going toget those views, those clicks,
that engagement to bolster upyour, your mid funnel, the
bottom funnel, right, right,because I think a lot of people
(23:46):
get stuck on just like midfunnel, bottom funnel, and meta
is kind of leaning towards thatright now and so, and then again
that might be top funnelcampaigns and meta, sure but
just, but just carefullymonitoring, because I mean a lot
of agencies will be like youjust need clicks, then you get a
million clicks and no one everbuys.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Right, and it's just because they're not monitoring.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Because they're optimizing off of link clicks
Right, but sometimes it's videoengagement campaigns, sometimes
it's link click campaigns,sometimes it's awareness
campaigns.
There's a few options for topfunnel campaigns and a lot of
people fail at them and thereason being is sometimes it
doesn't work, like sometimesyour buy your.
Your buyer consideration isjust not that long.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Right, so it doesn't make sense to do that.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
It doesn't make sense to to spend a lot of money
there, but most times, most ofthe time, if you fail at that,
it's generally like you're notmonitoring it and measuring
success in the right ways.
Are these people engaged whenthey come in contact with your
brand?
Yeah, Are they moving downfunnel, so to speak?
I know some people like to saythat the funnel doesn't exist
(24:56):
anymore and that's fine.
I think that's just semanticdifferences.
Whether it's a funnel or ajourney yeah, or a cycle, or a
journey yeah, or yeah, a cycle,or whatever they call it.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Every brand has a journey of some sort, so yeah,
we could beef about that.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, that's something that annoys me People
reinventing semantic yeahMeanings Right, and trying to
like spin it into like a new one.
Yeah, that always, that alwaysirks me.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
What are your thoughts about?
In d2c twitter right now apploving you're seeing people talk
about new programmaticadvertising opportunities.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I'm not saying anybody's out there lying Sure.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
But it'd be interesting to understand what
their incentive to talk about itwould be yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Less less about that, it's more, it's more.
Look my best.
This is the same kind of adviceI give to new parents, like
when, when somebody has a kid, Isay I'm not going to give you
any advice because the bestadvice I can give you is like
you're just gonna have to figureit all out as you go.
(26:15):
But my one piece of advice isis bit like for dads, for
example, like I'll tell dads, myone piece of advice for you is
to really try to cherish thetime that the baby will sleep in
your arms, because, likethey'll stop doing that for you
before they do it for mom.
For mom, yeah, generally, sure,I know it's, you know, I know
(26:37):
case by case yeah but likegenerally, they like they start
wanting to play with dad snugglewith mom and they get more
comfort from mom generally, anduh.
So like my only advice is likehey, take advantage of when
they'll actually, yeah, justfall asleep on you, because,
like, once it's over, it's overright so it's, it's more of just
(26:58):
like just enjoy the moment.
You know, yeah, but like Idon't have like techniques right
I'm not going to tell them allthese little things, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
So tying that back into.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Tying that back into brands.
You're going to jump ontoTwitter and it's like getting
advice from a parent with kidsthat are completely different
than you.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Like it might work, might not, but app loving is
programmatic ad placements inapps.
Is it working really well forsome brands?
I'm sure it is.
What kind of brands are they?
Are they seven-figure brands?
Are they eight-figure brands?
Are they nine-figure brands?
Right, right, what's theirtotal attainable market?
(27:37):
You know, there's justdifferent measurements for each
industry and for each brand.
And look, maybe app loving isthe next best thing.
Programmatic ad placements havebeen around for 10 years oh,
much longer, even you know solike a little in apps, sure, and
(27:58):
I mean, is it really the nextbest thing?
Everyone was talking abouttiktok shops really the next
best thing.
Everyone was talking aboutTikTok shops being the next best
thing.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Those people are now saying, and for some brands it
is.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
And for some again, for some brands, it is TikTok
shops is everything I just I'm,you know, I'm not superstitious,
I'm just a little stitious.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
A little stitious yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Of claims that, like there's the new thing on the
block.
But again, like I just said,that can sound hypocritical
because I just said, hey, we'regonna have to figure out what
the top funnel is, whether it'sin meta or whether it's app
loving or whether it's twitteror whether it's, uh, youtube.
You know, like, where the wherethe user, where's the user
(28:41):
behavior going, basically, like,where is the user behavior
going basically?
Where is your audience?
How can you meet your audiencewhere they are?
I'm agnostic, I'm not like ameta maximalist.
I don't think you have to be inmeta 100% of the time, but it
has been the most consistentover time.
It's not as bad as some peoplesay.
And then the other thing withthe app Levin is sometimes I
wonder if people are misusingmeta in a way or expecting meta
(29:06):
to be things that it's not andso maybe it's underperforming
yeah but yeah, but they're notdoing it right right yeah, but
nonetheless, like I'm sure thepeople who say they're seeing
success on app loving are yeah,I'm not claiming anybody's a
liar, um, but the people who Ihave seen praise app 11
(29:27):
generally tend to be a kind ofcompany that most our audience
probably isn't in.
Sure, yeah, just from a revenueperspective, just from a size
perspective, just from, like youknow, most companies should
probably just focus on twoadvertising channels until they
hit 20 million a year.
You know, like you don't have todiversify now and and again.
(29:51):
Maybe we do, cause we have tofigure out if you're not getting
organic reach the way you usedto and if meta continues to
evolve, if CPMs rise like if youknow, these are a lot of ifs.
That's why you have to test,but um, you're gonna have to
make up those clicks and thoseengagement and those eyeballs in
in another avenue yeah that'snot organic right so what is
(30:14):
that?
other avenue like that's the,that's the big question going
into 2025 where everybody lostthis year was less traffic.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yes, yeah, I mean there was.
There were some times witheconomy stuff and and and uh,
the election that I think justgoofed with a lot of things, but
for the most part, when we cango back right, the big four like
the big four.
Hey, why is my store up or whyis my store down?
It's traffic, it's conversionrate, it's aov and it's
returning customers.
90 of the time it was trafficfor most people.
(30:44):
So that's what Mark means whenhe's like we got to find a way
to.
You have to find a way to makeit up.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
And if it is what it is for your brand, like hey, the
only way to grow is throughpaid then your job over the next
three months is to really lookat your economies of scale and
your business and youroperational costs and to try to
figure out hey, if we're notgoing to get the same reach on
organic like this isn't 2016,.
(31:10):
you're not posting and yourfollowers see it anymore yeah.
So if you're going to have toget that engagement back through
paid means, yeah.
Then where are you going tomake up the margin?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
there's definitely a way to do it for sure, right,
like if you, if you understandyour economics, what, for
example, your variable costs andopex are down to, like the, the
penny, then sometimes all youneed to do, right, if you saw
your AMER or MER, whatever you,whatever metric you ROI row as
(31:48):
whatever you want to call it,whatever metric you're looking
at to understand how efficientthings have been for you.
Let's say you were sitting at athree and now you're at a two.
Your profitability just shrunkby what is that?
30%, right?
So big, significant dip.
(32:09):
That doesn't necessarily meanthat paid still can't work.
You just might have to doubleyour spend to get the same
profits that you may have, right?
So, as long as you know thosenumbers, right, you understand
what your contribution margin is.
You understand what youroverall costs of the business
are.
Like.
We have some brands that wetalk to right now.
(32:29):
It's like hey, I knowperformance sucks.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Spend more If you're not willing to.
Yeah, well, yeah, it's usually.
It's usually hey, performancefeels like it sucks Right.
Here's the big picture of whyyou feel this way.
Right, so you have two optionseither you play the efficiency
game or you play the volume game.
Yeah and it's not.
And this is always the.
This is the problem that, um, alot of brands face.
(32:55):
It's a mentality problem, notnecessarily a math problem, sure
, yeah, the math works it's well.
I'm used to seeing especiallybrands that had the five, six,
seven, x, yeah numbers in 201617, 18, 19, right, yeah, but
you're not going to see thosekinds of quote returns and, by
(33:18):
the way, those returns were allinflated because of what we're
talking about.
You used to get organic reach,yeah, yeah.
So the returns you were gettingon ads were never, never that
high that high, yeah, which iswhy a lot of people would spend
a lot more money and never seegrowth.
Yeah back then yeah, it'sbecause never mind.
Well, I digress the point beingum.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Your performance might be fine, it's just it.
It's just different.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
What do you care about Profit volume or profit
efficiency?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, do you care about profit margin, or do you
care about profit margin dollar?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah Cause.
Guess what Walmart cares aboutvolume, yeah the profit margin.
And guess what?
That's how companies get bigtoo.
I think a lot of these brandsin e-commerce fall into this
mindset trap of we can't growbecause we're not hitting
certain efficiencies and it'sokay.
(34:09):
Well, either you got to figureout a way to cut costs in your
business so that you can make upthat margin organic or if
you're still profitable, thenyou just need more volume yeah
and, yes, there's an efficiencymetric that comes into play with
more volume to however, that's.
That's the biggest mindset jumpI think that a lot of brands
(34:31):
might have to make is like yeah,guys, like most, most
industries don't have a lot ofmargin.
Actually, you know, bigcompanies don't have big margins
.
They generally have hugevolumes.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah, you have to ask yourself the question.
Let's say you want to make$50,000 in overall profit Right
After I've paid everything.
Ads agencies employees I wantto make $50,000 in profit.
Mm-hmm, ads agencies employeesI want to make $50,000 in profit
.
Does it matter if you spent$50,000 to make 50,000 in profit
(35:12):
or $200,000 to make $50,000 inprofit?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Because at the end of the day, you're getting that
money all back.
Exactly.
And if you went to any investorlike this, this is the mindset
right.
If you went to any investorlike this, this is the mindset
right.
If you went to any investor onwall street and said, hey, I
have this machine that if youput two hundred thousand dollars
into you'll get two hundredfifty thousand dollars back yeah
, they would say yes, all thetime of course they'd say yes,
(35:38):
even if they, even if you said$205,000 and it was a guarantee,
they would say yes, withinseven days.
Yeah, Within seven days, you'regoing to get $205,000 back.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I mean that seems crazy, but sure, let's do it
yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
So, yeah, my point being and your point being is
yes, you're spending more money,but at some point, if you're
playing the volume game, thevolume works.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
The big question is do you have the credit, do you
have the?
How high are your credit cardlimits, or how high is your line
of credit from the bank, or howmuch cash flow do you?
Speaker 2 (36:15):
have.
Sure, you have to build up tothat for sure.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
There's those things obviously, but just know, let's
say you've got it, that's,that's a really yeah, not an
easy way to scale, but a verylogical, mathematic way to scale
.
You just have to get out of themind f, that is, which is I
used to get this you're toofocused on efficiency.
I used to get this who cares ifit's not a four anymore and
(36:38):
it's a 1.8?
I'm just gonna quadruple myspend and get the same or more
profitability.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Yes, now, I'm not saying forego all profitability
metrics, but and neither you,yeah, but this idea of this
efficiency.
I think a lot of smaller brandswould be very surprised to peek
into big companies ad accountsand see what kind of quote row
(37:04):
as they get.
Yeah, yeah, I think so too,which is not great.
Yeah, according to what youthink, it should be sure, like
the row as doesn't get better.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
No, especially as you spend more it.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
It plateaus, though, yeah, right, like the efficiency
will decrease over time,because, again, we're talking
about and and this is themindset that I hope a lot of
people are understanding, andthis is a lot of the reason why
people have a hard time withthis.
Jump is, the blind spot ine-commerce has always been the
(37:42):
last couple of years, especiallythis year.
Oh, my ads aren't performing aswell as they used to, and it's
it's actually my hot take.
If that's not true, it's justyou don't have the easy organic
you used to, yeah, yeah, and I'mnot blaming anybody for that,
it's just that's what's changed.
(38:04):
Like you don't have the reach,like and if and if you do have
the reach, reach out to us.
And if your ads are stillperforming worse, yeah then
that's interesting.
Yeah, but in most of theaccounts, if not all all that we
deal with, ads are actuallyperforming great.
It's just hey, if you don'thave the organic reach.
(38:26):
Like with this one brand wedeal with, they have a great
product, they're in a semi-niche, they're not in a niche
industry, but they have a nichemessage to that market.
It's a pretty big, obtainablemarket though.
Sure, their organic reach hasgone down 90% over the last year
(38:52):
and a half.
Yeah, so naturally, ad costsappear to be a lot more.
Yeah, but when you look at allthese metrics, like, hey, look
at your engagement rates andyour conversion rates in
analytics.
Google analytics and Shopifyyeah, like everything's still
working.
It's just your traffic is allpaid now, yeah, and they're
(39:12):
still profitable.
And once we got to that pointof them saying, okay, we just
got to do more volume,everything's been working out
for him, right?
Yeah, for sure, but that's,that's not to.
That's not to say.
Your first point is invalidbecause the best way to increase
(39:32):
your efficiency is to havebetter organic reach on social
media platforms.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yeah, I agree.
So organic important, more sotraffic is just important.
You just need more traffic.
So whether that's organic orwhether that's other paid
channels that can help hopefullyget you.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
And the right kind of traffic.
Yeah, exactly, not just traffic.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Better traffic.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
And I just want to reiterate that's a trap that you
might fall into totally as abrand owner or if you're using
an agency, or if you're a mediabuyer.
Yeah, they'll get you a lot oftraffic and you'll be pumping
traffic if you're a media buyer.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
But if you don't realize oh, these are all
grandmas and it's not converting, then we sell skateboards like
yeah, like that's the otherthing that I just want to add
that we haven't talked about islike I think 2025 is just a
place for that.
Every brand can go clean uptheir opex.
I think that that's sometimes abig killer in what you can
(40:35):
spend and how you can well, yougot possible trump tariffs too.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah, exactly, so you're gonna want to spend a lot
of good operational timethinking about totally possible
and that's probably a whole newpodcast, like we should probably
go through like a.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
That could be a very interesting pot.
But yeah, just just jump intoyour opex.
Try not to make it.
Try not to make it.
So your OPEX is much more thanlike.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
We should bring in an operation guy, yeah, or girl or
gal or woman.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Human.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Boy.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Just an operation individual?
Yeah, yeah, dig into OPEX.
What are you spending on rent?
How many employees do you have?
Could one person do the job oftwo?
You know there's a lot.
You'd be shocked with how muchmost people are spending on
(41:33):
things that they don'tnecessarily need to spend on.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Yeah, the Pareto principle is undefeated and is
alive and well in yourorganization right now.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
I heard somebody, uh, on Twitter, actually say
something that I really liked isthat your OPEC should not be
any higher than your contract,your return, your returning
customer contribution margin, asa good rule of thumb that is a
good rule of thumb because theneverything else you're bringing
in from a new customeracquisition is profitability yes
(42:07):
I like that actually that is areally good rule of thumb yeah,
so allright something like that ladies
and gentlemen, I think that'sgood enough, yeah yeah, it is
but yeah, I like the idea ofdoing like a deep dive.
Operationally.
We can talk tariffs, we cantalk how to look into ops, how
(42:28):
to break down contributionmargin, because I'm sure we're
using that word and there arepeople who have maybe heard the
word but aren't exactly sure howto dive deeper into that.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yeah, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, we even talked about we have a really cool
contribution margin, doc.
We talked about that.
Maybe that could be like a goodlittle lead magnet we can give
to people so we can startcommunicating.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Yeah, a little magnetism yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Make you guys give us your email addresses for our
secrets.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Putting it out in the universe, drawing those with
similar energies exactly allright everybody.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Thank you so much retrograde, they say thank you
so much for joining us.
Um hope you had a good blackFriday and we will uh see you
guys next week.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Thank you so much for listening to the unstoppable
marketer podcast.
Please go rate and subscribethe podcast, whether it's good
or bad.
We want to hear from youbecause we always want to make
this podcast better.
If you want to get in touchwith me or give me any direct
feedback, please go follow meand get in touch with me.
I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and TikTok.
(43:45):
Thank you, and we will see younext week.
it's hard when you're not winning at all and you jump
it into meta and meta is notworking, to then invest more
into google, right like you'regetting in this spot where
you're like we don't have themoney to spend and so sometimes
you can nab up some of thatlower.
I hate using the word lowhanging fruit, but I think
everyone understands it yeah,it's not low hanging in the
sense that it's easy, right,it's just.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
It's just there's demand yeah exactly so capture
the demand that's already there.
Where when social ads is greatat creating demand, but
sometimes your problem solutiontype products.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Yeah, there's so much demand already there you don't
need to create it, so just jumpin, nab it up and then start
creating more.
Yo, what's going on, everybody?
Welcome to the Unstop.
Yo, what's going on, everybody.
Welcome to the UnstoppableMarketer Podcast.
What was that Wish?
With me, as always, is MarkGoldhart, my lovely co-host,
(00:54):
who's growing his hair back out.
It looks like Unintentionally.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, it's unintentional, but it's
happening, I guess.
Unintentional, but it'shappening, I guess.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
We missed last week.
It's Black Friday week prep andwe just were crazy and
traveling.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
It was a no-go.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Los Santos.
Very sorry, how are you?
We made it.
You're listening to thispost-Black Friday.
We did it.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
It's over, finally.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, I think that is my eighth black friday in the
industry and it was by far themost interesting yeah, I don't
know how many it's been for me.
(01:44):
It's probably been seven six.
Maybe you're maybe like one ortwo behind.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So a grand total of, call it, you know, 15.
15 together, so no not thatmuch.
Yeah, it was crazy.
How did?
How was Black Friday Like?
What's your take on blackfriday?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
um, interesting take.
I guess my hot take is thatmeta actually worked pretty well
, despite rising cpms, despiteyou know the narrative online
that everything's getting worse.
Right, we saw across the boardmeta perform pretty similar year
(02:32):
over year, if not slightlybetter, from a conversion rate
standpoint okay, that's what Iwas gonna say, define what you
mean.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
So you're saying well , just like efficiency, yeah,
like just overall efficiency ofof meta traffic.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Meta ads was was pretty solid, but we did see
some interesting trends andwe've been spotting these trends
for a couple of weeks, monthsbut and those trends are
concerning going into the q1yeah so that's.
That's why it was an interestingweek Like I think we probably
(03:07):
hoped for better for some and itdidn't pan out Like others did
way better than expected orprojected.
Sure, but overall it wasn'tthis huge negative month Like,
oh, this didn't work.
Yeah, you got the vibe that alot of people it felt like some
people were kind of thudding, asthey say Doomsday, like meta's
(03:30):
broken, it's not working.
But there is something brokenin meta, but I don't think it's
the ads.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, my big takeaway was it was your dollars did not
go as far from a trafficperspective, but the behavior
was exactly what you hoped it tobe once you got it.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Well, and the behavior was often better.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, exactly, it was better.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
So like the conversion rate, that we saw
conversion rates.
Yeah, buying was up trafficslightly.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
so I mean, when I say down, I'm saying like the cost
per to get click yeah was higheryes, which meant that a
thousand dollars normally wouldget you x amount, only got you,
but 20 conversion rates werehigher, less.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah across the board conversion rates were higher,
yeah, so yeah, I thought thesame thing.
So for the accounts that wereslightly down or maybe make
missed projections, like we, welooked into it and maybe this is
you, I don't know, out there toour listeners, to our loyal
listeners.
Maybe you were down, maybe youweren't as good as expected.
(04:43):
What we saw in accounts wasdirect traffic.
It is very influenced by ads,but direct traffic was down.
Referral traffic was down yeahand that's what is interesting
about what's broken in meta isit's.
I think a lot of people lean onsaying it's the ads, because
that's the Shiny object, rightlike that's the thing that grows
(05:07):
you the fastest.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It's the right thing.
You can control on a dailybasis traffic yeah but Across
the board.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
We know that most clients are experiencing a huge
decrease this year in organicreach.
Yeah, yeah, they're just notreaching their followers the way
they could in past BlackFridays, and so You're having to
make some of that up throughads.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, I mean.
Well, I'm sure a lot of peopleRealize this, but just in case
you don't, when you're Drivingorganic traffic, that is a pool
that you Can tap into from apaid ads perspective, and that
pool is becoming less and lessand less, so you're having to
(05:53):
manufacture that pool throughpaid ads, whereas in the
previous years that pool wasjust naturally higher.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And so the question is yeah, and ads could retarget
engaged audiences exactly right,so the more reach and
engagement you got.
Obviously your ads are gonnalook, quote better, yep, and
perform better.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
But and the brands that have a good organic
presence that we worked with.
Those were the brands that wereup.
Those are the brands that werethat one.
Yeah, yeah, like a much higherratio this year.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, like we have a few clients that were up a
couple hundred percentages, youknow, yeah, so, yeah, so those
kinds of clients have somevirality to their organic game.
Yeah, right now that othersdon't, and but that's I mean,
that's just like a.
(06:52):
I mean we're not going to giveyou guys a good solution to that
.
We talk about it a lot.
Yeah, because it is concerningto see why your people's
reachers is just so down, I meanacross the board.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Do you think it's the platforms fault or do you think
it's how people create content?
I mean, obviously there's both.
I think the end, like you, getthe safe answers both.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
But well, my hot take is it's not the platform's
fault.
Um, it's not.
Yeah, it's not the platform'sfault and it's not?
Yeah, it's not the platform'sfault and it's not the
business's fault, it's theconsumer's fault.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Elaborate consumers.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
So there's a little hint in your ads account.
So if if you have access to yourads account, go look up your
over the last little while,especially over like Black
Friday and like maybe OctoberNovember time period, if you
want to go back further, and youcan even go back even further
than that but go look at yourCPMs by placement and go look at
(08:01):
how much CPMs just in Instagramfeed have gone up and go look
at how much cpms just aninstagram feed have gone up.
Now, what people don't, may notrealize about a cpm metric is
that that is just a supplydemand metric, right, that is
how many the demand ofadvertising dollars going into
it and the supply of eyeballs,yep.
(08:22):
Well, reels and stories acrossthe board, especially reels have
had a much, much, much cheaperCPM.
Yes, behavior has been in thepast, buying behavior was a
little less or a lot less inreels, but I'm seeing that
starting to shift towards reels,yeah, and so a hypothesis that
(08:43):
we're going to be testing out isI think that consumers are just
spending way more time on reels.
I don't think people arescrolling the feed anymore, even
though that's where all themoney's going yeah so I think
we're seeing a change in dynamicof and that's also why you
(09:03):
don't get reach right likeyou're't get reach right, like
you're not getting reach becausethere's not as many people
spending time on feed RightScrolling through their who
they're following yeah, for sure.
They're jumping into reels ormaybe they're going through
stories.
Yeah, so the consumer like Idon't I don't think this is
(09:23):
necessarily like meta conspiringagainst advertisers, I just
think it's I don't you wouldthink that their platform would
catch up with that and realizethat, hey, maybe we should
distribute, especially if you'reusing, like automatic
placements, cause for a longtime automatic placements at
(09:46):
least in the last year, they'vebeen great, but we played around
depending on the account, andif we saw these trends in an
account, we use some manualplacements and those worked
great.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
After we realized that, oh, in some accounts reels
was far out performing.
Yeah, feed and cpms were sohigh in feed that not only was,
were you getting a better costper result in a reels placement,
you were also getting moreclicks, yeah.
So if you're getting more clicks, better cost pers, then that
(10:20):
helps you down funnel too rightso whether this is just a glitch
because of black friday inoctober in the election or
whether this is a trend willprobably pan out in the next two
months I mean I, I, to meeverything signs.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Why I say that it's not a glitch, because we've been
seeing it with accounts for awhile yeah, oh yeah.
I mean we saw like we have somebrands whose best cpa months
were spring and they were theworst cpa months they've had,
and the biggest thing that wecan pull back and look at is
that was like roughly rightaround when their organic reach
(11:00):
just took the biggest nosed dive, yep, so, which is a bummer?
Yeah, I mean the point, thepoint, I think that.
But you have to, we have toevolve yeah, and I think we, we
I know you said you didn't wantto do this and we won't dive
deep into it, but the point it,like mark and I talk about this
quite a bit um, like weobviously run paid ads, like we,
(11:21):
we are paid ad experts, that'swhat our agency does Um, so paid
ads isn't going anywhere.
It's still, critically, thebest way to grow and scale.
But I just think today therewas the like final straw or this
weekend was the final straw tome that for most people, paid
(11:44):
ads, loans, paid ads alone justwon't cut it.
There's definitely some brandsout there that it can and will.
So don't come after me, causethere's some brands out there
who's like that's all we do andwe were right.
If you're a, if you are aproblem solution product, you
know yeah, I guess that kindkind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I guess my only pushback on that is it's not
that paid ads won't cut it, it's, I think media buying is
becoming a little bit harder.
So I think the first six monthsof this year it was like the
easiest thing ever yeah, yeah,because that's when broad
started to become yeah, like Imean you had 12 months, like
(12:25):
maybe end of last year goinginto this year, where it became
easier, like broad worked yeahbut something happened over the
last six months and I think ithas more to do with user
behavior than it has to do withlike meta changing something
algorithms or whatever, yeah,and so, yes, but cause again,
like we have brands that it'sbasically paid ads does
(12:47):
everything for, yeah, yeah, andthey and they're killing it.
But it's going to take a lotmore nuance in how you are
running ads.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Like you can't like if you're just using broad, if
you're just doing these thingsand just expecting it all to
work all the time withouttesting new to new funnel and
flows, yeah then you're probablygoing to be in trouble yeah and
another example of that is likehey, ads are going to work for
you, but sometimes social adsaren't the best thing for you
(13:19):
yeah, yeah, we've moved a lot ofpeople not completely out of
meta, but we've pulled a lot ofpeople's meta budget and dumped
it over into the google side ofthings yeah depending on what
your industry you're in.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, I've seen a lot of really good success that way
or your product positioningyeah, so like these are kind of
newer clients that that we'vehad, where sometimes you go,
it's just it.
It's not that social ads can'twork for you, but it's just.
It's like people are searchingfor this.
Like this is a, this is aproduct, problem solution
(13:54):
product.
That's kind of more of a nichecommunity.
Like, yeah, like social ads mayor may not work in the in the
long run, but they've've alwaysstruggled.
Like they've gone through fiveagencies, yeah, struggling.
So it's like well, google adsis going to be right and you
look at their google account,you can and you're like dissect
it and say oh actually, whyaren't you just running google?
(14:14):
yeah, you can actually grow ongoogle.
There's still tons of lift, butyou're just bidding on brand
terms right now.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
That's why there's no incrementality and you can
maximize what's happening overin Google.
And as soon as you start to getthat engine flowing, you can
start to reinvest to create moredemand.
On the meta side of things,right, whereas it's hard when
you're not winning at all andyou jump it into meta and meta
is not working.
To then invest more into GoogleRight, like you're, you're
(14:43):
getting in this spot whereyou're like we don't have the
money to spend and so sometimesyou can nab up some of that
lower I hate using the wordlow-hanging fruit, but I think
everyone understands it likethat the search terms there
people are like if I'm searchingfor.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, it's not low-hanging in the sense that
it's easy, right, it's just,it's just there's demand yeah
exactly so capture the demandthat's already there.
Yeah, where social ads is greatat creating demand, but
sometimes your your problemsolution.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Type product so, yeah , there's so much demand already
there, you don't need to createit, so just jump in, nab it up
and then start creating moreyeah, because you're kind of,
you're trying to compete and alot of times these have low aovs
too right, that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
It's like you got low aov, you got a lot of one-time
purchasers or you know, whateverthe situation might be, it's
like, yeah, maybe meta ads isn'tgoing to cut it for you yeah
unless you have the creativepotential or the virality of
organic.
And yeah you know, multipliersforce, multipliers is what we
(15:40):
call them yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
But nonetheless, like , like you said, with the on the
meta side of things, I think,um, I think investing in an
organic strategy is is justcritical.
Like I said, we talk about itall the time.
It's not just going to behelpful because it's going to
help you retarget, but it's alsoa great way to test creative
right, like, where does themajority of your wasted budget
(16:04):
go in meta?
Oftentimes, for brands, it'stesting that creative, you know,
which is a good thing.
Right, you want to test theright stuff to then double down
on it.
But when you find winners inthe organic side, yeah, those
generally become winners on thepaid side, so you can kind of
cut through some of that yeah, Idon't want to call it wasted
spend, because that spendoftentimes is very important.
(16:26):
You know you got to figure outwhich ones win.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, it's tough sledding out there, man.
I mean on the organic sideespecially, which then parlays
over into oh, like my ads aren'tdoing as good.
It's like, well, you know, onceyou hit a certain point, like
your ads are just not going toperform the same because you
don't have a pool of thisorganic people that have engaged
(16:51):
with you once or twice.
Right, that you're essentiallyretargeting, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
And organic isn't just like you creating yourself
organic content.
Organic is also other peopletalking about you too.
You can look at it that way,more borrowed, I guess, like
sometimes we call that borroweddistribution.
Yeah, collaborations which youcan user, generated content yeah
, and you can.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
You can you turn that engine on from selling more
products too?
Yeah, right, I mean, a lot, of,a lot of people have a ton of
tagged content that they nevereven look at.
Yeah, yeah, or touch, or notice.
Like they don't even know thatthey have like five Bigger
people that have posted aboutthem.
(17:33):
Sometimes you know totally.
Yeah, so go look at who'stagging you.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, Make sure you have somebody's monitoring that
there's a there's a good appthat monitors, that monitors
that for you.
That there's a good, there's agood app that monitors that
monitors that for you.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
So like, obviously it's really easy in like on
instagram to see who tags you injust by in a feed that tag just
going over to the tag section.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
But there's been a big like a decrease in people
tagging in posts and peopletagging stories, and so there's
an a shopify app called archiveand there's a freemium version
of it and the paid version, Ithink, is super cheap.
It's probably like totally lessthan like $60 a month, but
that's a great way you can.
(18:12):
You can get access to storieseven after they've they've ended
, like right, stories are only24 hours, but archive will hold
those things and archive themfor forever and then you can
just reach out to those peopleand work with them, use that
content in ads, but go try thatapp out.
It's a good one.
Bada bing, bada boom.
(18:32):
Like that Archive you shouldsponsor the podcast At.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Archive.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Is that what it is?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I don't know, I was trying to, though.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Oh yeah, just go to the Shopify app store and type
in archive and you'll find it.
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Speaker 2 (20:01):
Like make sure you're looking at those, because those
posts and if you're tagged, youcan always reach out to them.
That's ad content.
If they're getting betterengagement, you might be able to
analyze hey, what are theydoing?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
send them more yeah, yeah, send them more product.
Send more people product too.
Guys like what a great like,what like when we run surveys
for people, uh, generally, ifyou have a good product, one of
the top three marketing channels.
When we run surveys for peoplegenerally, if you have a good
product, one of the top threemarketing channels, when we ask
the question how did you hearabout us?
How did you first hear about us?
You know your product's reallygood.
(20:33):
If the you know top two tothree responses is like someone
referred me, you know, friend orfamily member.
So what Mark was saying is likehey, the way you can sell more
is when you sell more, when yougive out content, that is,
advertising dollars.
That's a great way to spendmoney.
If you're like hey, I only have$25,000 or $50,000 a month,
(20:56):
take $5,000 or $10,000 of thatand give it away.
Give it away, give it away.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Give it away now.
Need it away.
Give it away.
Give it away now we're notchili peppers.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah so yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
They are red hot.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, what else?
Anything else learnings fromBlack Friday?
Anything you want to just ventabout in the e-commerce space
right now?
Get off your chest, no.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Not really yeah I'm not much of a venter, you know
yeah doesn't change thesituation, yeah, but I think,
knowing that, what can you do?
Okay, so maybe your organicisn't going to pick up in the
(21:46):
next one or two months, probablywon't right and I think that's
the problem.
Right, like organic is avitamin pill, it's going to take
a while to see benefits.
Like it's a, it's a nutritionalregimen term it's a long term.
You'll feel the benefits afteryou keep a schedule right, like
for a while.
Yeah, very unlikely.
You're going to just like startturning up your organic engine
(22:09):
and seeing the engagement andthe reach that you want yeah,
even if you hired somebodytomorrow.
So what can you do?
Well, it's really time to startthinking about just clicks and
engagement and top funnelmetrics that a lot of people
forget in the e-comm world.
Like everyone's looking fordirect attribution, I want a
(22:33):
click and purchase within sevendays or whatever.
But now it's time to say, okay,let's take a step back, and this
is my prediction for quarterone in 2025.
The good ones are going to takea step back and say, hey, costs
(22:53):
have risen in meta and meta'sstill performing, but we also
have a bigger approach here.
We just mean we just need moretouch points with people and
introductions.
Yeah, how do we get thoseintroductions?
Is it going to be through aplatform like x?
Is it?
(23:14):
Is tiktok going to start beingbetter for that kind of content
where, hey, we're going to getbetter cost pur, like TikTok has
been kind of fluky.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Has not been consistent in the way meta has,
which is why and we'veespecially seen a little dip
recently.
Yeah, yeah.
And so where are you going toget those views, those clicks,
that engagement to bolster upyour, your mid funnel, the
bottom funnel, right, right,because I think a lot of people
(23:46):
get stuck on just like midfunnel, bottom funnel, and meta
is kind of leaning towards thatright now and so, and then again
that might be top funnelcampaigns and meta, sure but
just, but just carefullymonitoring, because I mean a lot
of agencies will be like youjust need clicks, then you get a
million clicks and no one everbuys.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Right, and it's just because they're not monitoring.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Because they're optimizing off of link clicks
Right, but sometimes it's videoengagement campaigns, sometimes
it's link click campaigns,sometimes it's awareness
campaigns.
There's a few options for topfunnel campaigns and a lot of
people fail at them and thereason being is sometimes it
doesn't work, like sometimesyour buy your.
Your buyer consideration isjust not that long.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Right, so it doesn't make sense to do that.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
It doesn't make sense to to spend a lot of money
there, but most times, most ofthe time, if you fail at that,
it's generally like you're notmonitoring it and measuring
success in the right ways.
Are these people engaged whenthey come in contact with your
brand?
Yeah, Are they moving downfunnel, so to speak?
I know some people like to saythat the funnel doesn't exist
(24:56):
anymore and that's fine.
I think that's just semanticdifferences.
Whether it's a funnel or ajourney yeah, or a cycle, or a
journey yeah, or yeah, a cycle,or whatever they call it.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Every brand has a journey of some sort, so yeah,
we could beef about that.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, that's something that annoys me People
reinventing semantic yeahMeanings Right, and trying to
like spin it into like a new one.
Yeah, that always, that alwaysirks me.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
What are your thoughts about?
In d2c twitter right now apploving you're seeing people talk
about new programmaticadvertising opportunities.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I'm not saying anybody's out there lying Sure.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
But it'd be interesting to understand what
their incentive to talk about itwould be yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Less less about that, it's more, it's more.
Look my best.
This is the same kind of adviceI give to new parents, like
when, when somebody has a kid, Isay I'm not going to give you
any advice because the bestadvice I can give you is like
you're just gonna have to figureit all out as you go.
(26:15):
But my one piece of advice isis bit like for dads, for
example, like I'll tell dads, myone piece of advice for you is
to really try to cherish thetime that the baby will sleep in
your arms, because, likethey'll stop doing that for you
before they do it for mom.
For mom, yeah, generally, sure,I know it's, you know, I know
(26:37):
case by case yeah but likegenerally, they like they start
wanting to play with dad snugglewith mom and they get more
comfort from mom generally, anduh.
So like my only advice is likehey, take advantage of when
they'll actually, yeah, justfall asleep on you, because,
like, once it's over, it's overright so it's, it's more of just
(26:58):
like just enjoy the moment.
You know, yeah, but like Idon't have like techniques right
I'm not going to tell them allthese little things, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
So tying that back into.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Tying that back into brands.
You're going to jump ontoTwitter and it's like getting
advice from a parent with kidsthat are completely different
than you.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Like it might work, might not, but app loving is
programmatic ad placements inapps.
Is it working really well forsome brands?
I'm sure it is.
What kind of brands are they?
Are they seven-figure brands?
Are they eight-figure brands?
Are they nine-figure brands?
Right, right, what's theirtotal attainable market?
(27:37):
You know, there's justdifferent measurements for each
industry and for each brand.
And look, maybe app loving isthe next best thing.
Programmatic ad placements havebeen around for 10 years oh,
much longer, even you know solike a little in apps, sure, and
(27:58):
I mean, is it really the nextbest thing?
Everyone was talking abouttiktok shops really the next
best thing.
Everyone was talking aboutTikTok shops being the next best
thing.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Those people are now saying, and for some brands it
is.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
And for some again, for some brands, it is TikTok
shops is everything I just I'm,you know, I'm not superstitious,
I'm just a little stitious.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
A little stitious yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Of claims that, like there's the new thing on the
block.
But again, like I just said,that can sound hypocritical
because I just said, hey, we'regonna have to figure out what
the top funnel is, whether it'sin meta or whether it's app
loving or whether it's twitteror whether it's, uh, youtube.
You know, like, where the wherethe user, where's the user
(28:41):
behavior going, basically, like,where is the user behavior
going basically?
Where is your audience?
How can you meet your audiencewhere they are?
I'm agnostic, I'm not like ameta maximalist.
I don't think you have to be inmeta 100% of the time, but it
has been the most consistentover time.
It's not as bad as some peoplesay.
And then the other thing withthe app Levin is sometimes I
wonder if people are misusingmeta in a way or expecting meta
(29:06):
to be things that it's not andso maybe it's underperforming
yeah but yeah, but they're notdoing it right right yeah, but
nonetheless, like I'm sure thepeople who say they're seeing
success on app loving are yeah,I'm not claiming anybody's a
liar, um, but the people who Ihave seen praise app 11
(29:27):
generally tend to be a kind ofcompany that most our audience
probably isn't in.
Sure, yeah, just from a revenueperspective, just from a size
perspective, just from, like youknow, most companies should
probably just focus on twoadvertising channels until they
hit 20 million a year.
You know, like you don't have todiversify now and and again.
(29:51):
Maybe we do, cause we have tofigure out if you're not getting
organic reach the way you usedto and if meta continues to
evolve, if CPMs rise like if youknow, these are a lot of ifs.
That's why you have to test,but um, you're gonna have to
make up those clicks and thoseengagement and those eyeballs in
in another avenue yeah that'snot organic right so what is
(30:14):
that?
other avenue like that's the,that's the big question going
into 2025 where everybody lostthis year was less traffic.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yes, yeah, I mean there was.
There were some times witheconomy stuff and and and uh,
the election that I think justgoofed with a lot of things, but
for the most part, when we cango back right, the big four like
the big four.
Hey, why is my store up or whyis my store down?
It's traffic, it's conversionrate, it's aov and it's
returning customers.
90 of the time it was trafficfor most people.
(30:44):
So that's what Mark means whenhe's like we got to find a way
to.
You have to find a way to makeit up.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
And if it is what it is for your brand, like hey, the
only way to grow is throughpaid then your job over the next
three months is to really lookat your economies of scale and
your business and youroperational costs and to try to
figure out hey, if we're notgoing to get the same reach on
organic like this isn't 2016,.
(31:10):
you're not posting and yourfollowers see it anymore yeah.
So if you're going to have toget that engagement back through
paid means, yeah.
Then where are you going tomake up the margin?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
there's definitely a way to do it for sure, right,
like if you, if you understandyour economics, what, for
example, your variable costs andopex are down to, like the, the
penny, then sometimes all youneed to do, right, if you saw
your AMER or MER, whatever you,whatever metric you ROI row as
(31:48):
whatever you want to call it,whatever metric you're looking
at to understand how efficientthings have been for you.
Let's say you were sitting at athree and now you're at a two.
Your profitability just shrunkby what is that?
30%, right?
So big, significant dip.
(32:09):
That doesn't necessarily meanthat paid still can't work.
You just might have to doubleyour spend to get the same
profits that you may have, right?
So, as long as you know thosenumbers, right, you understand
what your contribution margin is.
You understand what youroverall costs of the business
are.
Like.
We have some brands that wetalk to right now.
(32:29):
It's like hey, I knowperformance sucks.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Spend more If you're not willing to.
Yeah, well, yeah, it's usually.
It's usually hey, performancefeels like it sucks Right.
Here's the big picture of whyyou feel this way.
Right, so you have two optionseither you play the efficiency
game or you play the volume game.
Yeah and it's not.
And this is always the.
This is the problem that, um, alot of brands face.
(32:55):
It's a mentality problem, notnecessarily a math problem, sure
, yeah, the math works it's well.
I'm used to seeing especiallybrands that had the five, six,
seven, x, yeah numbers in 201617, 18, 19, right, yeah, but
you're not going to see thosekinds of quote returns and, by
(33:18):
the way, those returns were allinflated because of what we're
talking about.
You used to get organic reach,yeah, yeah.
So the returns you were gettingon ads were never, never that
high that high, yeah, which iswhy a lot of people would spend
a lot more money and never seegrowth.
Yeah back then yeah, it'sbecause never mind.
Well, I digress the point beingum.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Your performance might be fine, it's just it.
It's just different.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
What do you care about Profit volume or profit
efficiency?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, do you care about profit margin, or do you
care about profit margin dollar?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah Cause.
Guess what Walmart cares aboutvolume, yeah the profit margin.
And guess what?
That's how companies get bigtoo.
I think a lot of these brandsin e-commerce fall into this
mindset trap of we can't growbecause we're not hitting
certain efficiencies and it'sokay.
(34:09):
Well, either you got to figureout a way to cut costs in your
business so that you can make upthat margin organic or if
you're still profitable, thenyou just need more volume yeah
and, yes, there's an efficiencymetric that comes into play with
more volume to however, that's.
That's the biggest mindset jumpI think that a lot of brands
(34:31):
might have to make is like yeah,guys, like most, most
industries don't have a lot ofmargin.
Actually, you know, bigcompanies don't have big margins
.
They generally have hugevolumes.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah, you have to ask yourself the question.
Let's say you want to make$50,000 in overall profit Right
After I've paid everything.
Ads agencies employees I wantto make $50,000 in profit.
Mm-hmm, ads agencies employeesI want to make $50,000 in profit
.
Does it matter if you spent$50,000 to make 50,000 in profit
(35:12):
or $200,000 to make $50,000 inprofit?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Because at the end of the day, you're getting that
money all back.
Exactly.
And if you went to any investorlike this, this is the mindset
right.
If you went to any investorlike this, this is the mindset
right.
If you went to any investor onwall street and said, hey, I
have this machine that if youput two hundred thousand dollars
into you'll get two hundredfifty thousand dollars back yeah
, they would say yes, all thetime of course they'd say yes,
(35:38):
even if they, even if you said$205,000 and it was a guarantee,
they would say yes, withinseven days.
Yeah, Within seven days, you'regoing to get $205,000 back.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I mean that seems crazy, but sure, let's do it
yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
So, yeah, my point being and your point being is
yes, you're spending more money,but at some point, if you're
playing the volume game, thevolume works.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
The big question is do you have the credit, do you
have the?
How high are your credit cardlimits, or how high is your line
of credit from the bank, or howmuch cash flow do you?
Speaker 2 (36:15):
have.
Sure, you have to build up tothat for sure.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
There's those things obviously, but just know, let's
say you've got it, that's,that's a really yeah, not an
easy way to scale, but a verylogical, mathematic way to scale
.
You just have to get out of themind f, that is, which is I
used to get this you're toofocused on efficiency.
I used to get this who cares ifit's not a four anymore and
(36:38):
it's a 1.8?
I'm just gonna quadruple myspend and get the same or more
profitability.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Yes, now, I'm not saying forego all profitability
metrics, but and neither you,yeah, but this idea of this
efficiency.
I think a lot of smaller brandswould be very surprised to peek
into big companies ad accountsand see what kind of quote row
(37:04):
as they get.
Yeah, yeah, I think so too,which is not great.
Yeah, according to what youthink, it should be sure, like
the row as doesn't get better.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
No, especially as you spend more it.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
It plateaus, though, yeah, right, like the efficiency
will decrease over time,because, again, we're talking
about and and this is themindset that I hope a lot of
people are understanding, andthis is a lot of the reason why
people have a hard time withthis.
Jump is, the blind spot ine-commerce has always been the
(37:42):
last couple of years, especiallythis year.
Oh, my ads aren't performing aswell as they used to, and it's
it's actually my hot take.
If that's not true, it's justyou don't have the easy organic
you used to, yeah, yeah, and I'mnot blaming anybody for that,
it's just that's what's changed.
(38:04):
Like you don't have the reach,like and if and if you do have
the reach, reach out to us.
And if your ads are stillperforming worse, yeah then
that's interesting.
Yeah, but in most of theaccounts, if not all all that we
deal with, ads are actuallyperforming great.
It's just hey, if you don'thave the organic reach.
(38:26):
Like with this one brand wedeal with, they have a great
product, they're in a semi-niche, they're not in a niche
industry, but they have a nichemessage to that market.
It's a pretty big, obtainablemarket though.
Sure, their organic reach hasgone down 90% over the last year
(38:52):
and a half.
Yeah, so naturally, ad costsappear to be a lot more.
Yeah, but when you look at allthese metrics, like, hey, look
at your engagement rates andyour conversion rates in
analytics.
Google analytics and Shopifyyeah, like everything's still
working.
It's just your traffic is allpaid now, yeah, and they're
(39:12):
still profitable.
And once we got to that pointof them saying, okay, we just
got to do more volume,everything's been working out
for him, right?
Yeah, for sure, but that's,that's not to.
That's not to say.
Your first point is invalidbecause the best way to increase
(39:32):
your efficiency is to havebetter organic reach on social
media platforms.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yeah, I agree.
So organic important, more sotraffic is just important.
You just need more traffic.
So whether that's organic orwhether that's other paid
channels that can help hopefullyget you.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
And the right kind of traffic.
Yeah, exactly, not just traffic.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Better traffic.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
And I just want to reiterate that's a trap that you
might fall into totally as abrand owner or if you're using
an agency, or if you're a mediabuyer.
Yeah, they'll get you a lot oftraffic and you'll be pumping
traffic if you're a media buyer.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
But if you don't realize oh, these are all
grandmas and it's not converting, then we sell skateboards like
yeah, like that's the otherthing that I just want to add
that we haven't talked about islike I think 2025 is just a
place for that.
Every brand can go clean uptheir opex.
I think that that's sometimes abig killer in what you can
(40:35):
spend and how you can well, yougot possible trump tariffs too.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah, exactly, so you're gonna want to spend a lot
of good operational timethinking about totally possible
and that's probably a whole newpodcast, like we should probably
go through like a.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
That could be a very interesting pot.
But yeah, just just jump intoyour opex.
Try not to make it.
Try not to make it.
So your OPEX is much more thanlike.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
We should bring in an operation guy, yeah, or girl or
gal or woman.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Human.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Boy.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Just an operation individual?
Yeah, yeah, dig into OPEX.
What are you spending on rent?
How many employees do you have?
Could one person do the job oftwo?
You know there's a lot.
You'd be shocked with how muchmost people are spending on
(41:33):
things that they don'tnecessarily need to spend on.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Yeah, the Pareto principle is undefeated and is
alive and well in yourorganization right now.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
I heard somebody, uh, on Twitter, actually say
something that I really liked isthat your OPEC should not be
any higher than your contract,your return, your returning
customer contribution margin, asa good rule of thumb that is a
good rule of thumb because theneverything else you're bringing
in from a new customeracquisition is profitability yes
(42:07):
I like that actually that is areally good rule of thumb yeah,
so allright something like that ladies
and gentlemen, I think that'sgood enough, yeah yeah, it is
but yeah, I like the idea ofdoing like a deep dive.
Operationally.
We can talk tariffs, we cantalk how to look into ops, how
(42:28):
to break down contributionmargin, because I'm sure we're
using that word and there arepeople who have maybe heard the
word but aren't exactly sure howto dive deeper into that.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yeah, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, we even talked about we have a really cool
contribution margin, doc.
We talked about that.
Maybe that could be like a goodlittle lead magnet we can give
to people so we can startcommunicating.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Yeah, a little magnetism yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Make you guys give us your email addresses for our
secrets.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Putting it out in the universe, drawing those with
similar energies exactly allright everybody.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Thank you so much retrograde, they say thank you
so much for joining us.
Um hope you had a good blackFriday and we will uh see you
guys next week.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Thank you so much for listening to the unstoppable
marketer podcast.
Please go rate and subscribethe podcast, whether it's good
or bad.
We want to hear from youbecause we always want to make
this podcast better.
If you want to get in touchwith me or give me any direct
feedback, please go follow meand get in touch with me.
I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and TikTok.
(43:45):
Thank you, and we will see younext week.
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