January 27, 2025 • 55 mins
In this episode of the Unstoppable Marketer podcast, we explore the challenges brands face when balancing efficiency and growth, using real-world examples from the clothing industry. Discover strategies for maintaining customer acquisition and retention, and learn how to optimize operational costs to ensure long-term profitability. Tune in for insights on leveraging product seeding and ad strategies to scale your business effectively.
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You can't just deny reality, Right?
You can't just say hey, I don'tlike gravity because it wears
me out over time, like itdoesn't matter.
So I'm going to stop using it.
I'm just going to pretend thatgravity doesn't exist.
No, it's there, it's happening.
But how do you adjust as acompany through operational
costs?
(00:20):
But also, yes, you can get moreefficient with ads.
A lot of people just don't havea good plan of okay, I can
stomach the pain if I know thebenefit will outsize it
Absolutely.
And it's really hard to getover that if you don't have
someone in your company or ifyou don't learn how to do it or
if you don't hire someone toshow you.
(00:40):
Hey, yes, here's the reality.
Sorry, I know it hurts, butthis is how you're going to
scale.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yo, what's going on, everybody?
Welcome to the UnstoppableMarketer Podcast.
With me, as always, and back inthe studio, is Mark Goldhart.
Mark, how are you?
I'm well.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Good.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
How are you Great, you've recovered.
Yeah, we're were in the studio.
We're in our personal studioslast yeah now we're back.
It's been a minute since we'vebeen with Grayson and Film Lab
and I've missed you guys, sowe're back.
Yeah, thanks for being here,grace.
I was using my crappymicrophone.
(01:23):
If you listened to last weekepisode, hopefully it wasn't too
bad, but uh, we got it figuredout though.
I think it worked fine.
The content was good.
It was content was good.
We talked all about uh, so theepisode comes out.
The episode came out a dayafter.
(01:44):
I have to talk in future pasttense.
The episode, if you'relistening to this episode, the
previous week's episode came outtwo days after the ban.
Yeah, the ban was on the 19th.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
The episode dropped to the 21st, which is a Tuesday,
right, it's a 90 day extension.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah.
So we talked all about like,hey, this is how you make it, so
you don't just crash and burnif you have relied solely on
TikTok.
But it seems like that band'smost likely not going to go
forward.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
We need to check the polymarket odds.
Yeah, I don't think it's goingto go forward.
We need to check the polymarketodds.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, I don't think it's going to.
I never actually thought it wasgoing to, personally.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
So well, here Trump likes it too much.
Yeah, I mean he did call it out.
He said that's why he won theyouth vote, yeah, which we
called that out on this podcastmonths before the election
months before he won, or weeksat least, maybe not months.
Yeah, because we were watchingit.
(02:54):
It was like the new age mediaversus the old guard and we were
talking about how trump wastaking advantage of the podcast
and and he was getting on tiktokand he was doing these things.
That was connecting in a way,in a fun way.
Well, yeah To the youth.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
And just his natural presence and the things that he
does are oftentimes viral thingsthat suit the platform very
well.
For example, him handing outfries.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
He is kind of just like a ridiculous.
Yeah, handing out fries atMcDonald's.
Yeah, handing out fries.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Kind of just like ridiculous handing out fries at
mcdonald's.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah he's just kind of ridiculous it's a viral thing
.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So, yeah, listen to that episode, because whether
tiktok's banned or not, whetherit gets banned or not, that
episode is a really like it's aneye-opener episode.
Right, there was a lot ofpeople that I was talking to,
like I know a lot of creatorswho've built brands and products
on on tiktok solely, who justcouldn't even.
You know, they were besidethemselves, and so that episode
(03:54):
is a really good episode to helpyou understand that, at the end
of the day, you know, we don'town a lot and it can be taken
away, so you got to make surethat you've got.
Um, it's interesting, right, wetalk a ton about how there's so
many brands that always want todiversify like crazy, but then
(04:14):
you and me have kind of pulledback on the diversification
discussions to say, hey, no, youdon't need to be on Pinterest
and advertising on twitter andtiktok and meta and google yeah,
it's mastering you know ifyou're under a certain you know
we we tossed the number 20million out.
I don't know exactly how we'vegotten that, but that's just
sounds good yeah, that's kind ofwhat we've experienced.
(04:36):
No, I mean, we.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
We've just seen that in our client list and we've
also seen.
You know, if you just go ontwitter and follow people like
uh sean frank of ridge I know hehas also advocated for that in
the past- yeah, yeah, and he's ahundred, they're over a hundred
million dollar.
Yeah, brand so and he's, and Ithink he said like up to a
hundred million he might havesaid 50.
(04:58):
I think there's a 50, yeah.
Yeah, we'll have to go back andcheck so, so like that we'll
have to get him on the pod.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It's this world right of like diversity, you know
where?
To me it's like, okay, hey,couple ad channels, metagoogle,
but then, yes, of course, bedialing in your email, be
dialing in your SMS.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Those aren't channels .
Speaker 2 (05:20):
You can argue that they are.
They're not ad channels.
They're not advertisingchannels.
No, they're not.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
You can argue that they are, they're not
advertising, they're not, no,they are, I don't know, like,
that's just, they're not even.
Yes, they're part of youracquisition strategy.
But good, good grief, man, likeemail and SMS is just an
extension of your website,basically, or should be, yeah,
but people don't really treat itthat way so well.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
So yeah, we don't really need to get much more of
the TikTok ban.
One thing I do want to say, Iwant to point out Inauguration
Day happened.
I just want to point out myfavorite part of Inauguration
Day was Zuckerberg gettingcaught looking at Bezos' girls'
cleavage.
Yeah, that was awesome.
I saw that that was awesome.
(06:04):
I saw that that was like sogood, is that not just?
Speaker 1 (06:08):
a clever angle though .
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Have you seen?
Have you seen?
Yeah, I mean it could be, buteverything looks so like it
looks like Zuckerberg knewexactly what he was doing.
Do you know who Jack Mack is?
Do you follow Jack Mack?
He's the Barstool Sports.
He's part of the ball barstoolsports.
Organization, yeah and hecrushes it because he just like
(06:32):
takes these, he just takes likenews but less but, but puts more
of like a pop cultural vibe toit versus like Flooding in Italy
.
Yeah he's not doing that kind ofstuff.
He's taking events that areseemingly stupid but he makes
them into spectacles.
(06:53):
You know, and that one I meanhe was, he was one of the only
people, uh, at barstool, thatkamala harris reached out to her
team, reached out really tohave him interview her.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, but they didn't right, it wasn't there Like she
stipulations that she was likehey, send me your questions.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
He sent them and they wanted to and they were like no
, sorry, not going to happen.
But anyways he, he breaks itdown in slow mo and everything.
And it's so funny Like he.
So funny like he, likezuckerberg looks at him and then
(07:30):
like smirks and smiles like hejust got away with something.
And then she turns like reallyquickly and looks right what
looks to be right at him.
So he like he tenses up like hegot caught.
But she's talking.
She goes to say something tothe person right next to him, so
she doesn't him, but she likeimmediately looks in his
direction and then, once herealizes that she's talking to
(07:52):
the person next to him, he likesmiles and smirks again.
So to me it seems very like yes, it could be clever angles, but
to me it also looks like he sawit and he was doing it on
purpose.
I mean, she was very muchflaunting it you dirty dog to be
seen, I think, but zuck the car.
(08:15):
His carnal nature got the betterof him, didn't it on on
inauguration day, in front ofeverybody especially since, like
especially since a trilliondollars worth of people were
standing next to each other likethat was the most photographed
group, so it was really shockingthat he even tried microsoft
ceo.
You had it was microsoft orgoogle.
(08:36):
Meta twitter tesla spacex yeahand uh Tesla.
Spacex and Bezos A lot of money, nearly a trillion dollars.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
A lot of power, a lot of money.
They call it the Americanoligarch.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, so what are we talking about today?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
You think that's an oligarchy, Grace Grace said.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I don't know what that is.
What are we talking about?
Interesting discussion today.
Yeah, I think you want me toset the premise.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, yeah, set it up , so we get.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I got a LinkedIn message From somebody, from a
previous client, dum dum, dum,and she said hey, how are you?
What's up?
We're thinking about workingwith you guys again, which in
the agency world, just to be 100honest, doesn't happen like
(09:48):
once somebody leaves you, or youleave them very rarely, do you
continue to work like, do you?
Do you work up?
Speaker 1 (09:54):
work together again although it's happened with us a
few times it has happened morefrequently than I would have
ever assumed.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, um, we don't lose a lot of people for it to
be big.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
but yeah, yeah, Not to toot our own.
Our retention rate's reallylong, but it's more of a we
usually I mean of the peoplethat have left.
Sometimes it's just not a goodfit on for either side, Totally
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Totally, for many reasons.
Reasons, yeah, on both sides.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
so sometimes people yeah, for we can get into that
another day, but the pros andcons of just eight working with
agencies yeah I think it's areally good thing.
I think there's a lot of goodwork to be done from agencies
but sometimes, depending on yourflow as a company, it's not.
It might not be a good fit withhow you work an agency or just
(10:49):
that person.
There's many reasons um andthese guys either that's what
happens, like either you know,it's just not a good mesh
performance whatever, or a lotof the people that have, uh, out
of the that has left us, a lothas been because they end up
hiring in-house For sure.
Yeah, like they want to end up.
(11:10):
They think it's there's toomuch control of it's.
Either they think there's toomuch control over their company
from a third party yes, becauseyou're generating so much
revenue yes or it's hey, we justwant more control.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Just like to get on somebody all the time yeah,
often, oftentimes it becomes I'mspending this much money with
you guys.
I could find somebody one ortwo people to come work for me
full-time in-house, and then I'dbe able to call them at any
given time and have them doanything for me.
Yeah that's oftentimes a bigreason why somebody wants to go,
(11:46):
so so out of those reasons forleaving.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
When they come back, it's not as surprising, sure,
sure, because it's like, hey, wewant to go this direction, it
doesn't work out, couldn't findthe right people to do it.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
A year later, it's like, hey, this, yeah, this was
better so in this, in thissituation, we don't need to dive
too much into because we don'twant to give out too much,
because they left for what wefelt like was was a very
justifiable reason.
Uh, for for internal purposes,there was not a to you know, at
least to our knowledge, therewas not a hey, we don't like
(12:21):
working with you.
Hey, you're not doing good work.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
It was just a difference in how there's a big
difference in the strategicvision of how to accomplish the
goal, so which we, we were notin agreeance sure of of how to
accomplish the goals that theywanted to.
So we presented our plan.
They presented another.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
We were not de acuerdo, so we we decided to
split yeah, to be fair, theyattempted ours for a very brief
moment, less than a month,correct?
But it required more pain much,yeah, much more than that.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
So which we, which we are honest about, like yes, if
you want to accomplish thesegoals, this is the path, and
it's going to be painful for 30to 60 days.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
So I feel like we're being slightly cryptic.
Let's dive deeper into theproblem we're not going to talk
about.
We will not out who thesepeople are, ok, but it's.
Let's just say it's a clothingbrand, okay, and what this brand
was extremely good at wascreating high quality products
(13:39):
that once were in the hands ofthe customer.
The repeat purchase wasextremely strong, okay.
So I want to say I can'tremember at the time, but it was
around 80% returning customerrate and, and just to let
everyone know, an 80% returningcustomer rate doesn't mean that
(14:01):
80% of the people who buy cameback and bought again.
Meaning, if there were 10people, that doesn't mean that
80 of the people who buy cameback and bought again.
Meaning, if there were 10people, that doesn't mean that
eight of them came back andbought.
What just means of those 10people?
it means almost times yeahwhether it was by one person or
eight people, or two sure orthree which it tends to be two
yep, came back and bought fourtimes right, two people bought
(14:23):
four times or whatever.
Okay, so it tends to be two.
Yep, came back and bought fourtimes right, two people bought
four times or whatever.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Okay it tends to be out of 10 people.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Two come back and buy the majority.
Yeah, 80% of them.
80% customer return, customerrate.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And that was their situation.
They have a very strong loyalcohort.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
High lifetime value.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
High lifetime value of those specific people.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
People, but most people would come in and buy and
then not buy again so, so, andand they also were really great
at drops, so it was veryspecialized, unique stuff it
wasn't like they had basics,that people were just coming in
and out and buying all the time,okay, and so the plan was that
their issues were that, hey,revenue is we're not growing in
(15:07):
revenue, profitability revenueis not growing.
And when we jumped in andlooked under the hood, we
recognize that it was becausethey were actually relying too
much.
They were returning customersactually too high compared to
what their new customer ratioswere.
Right, agreed.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Well, the emphasis was placed on efficiency and
profitability.
Well, when I say profitability,I want to be careful with that
term but I say efficiency.
So the emphasis for them becamevery much efficiency focused,
which they were, and they werebeing efficient, blah, blah,
(15:50):
blah.
But and this is like rightafter iOS 14 and blah it is
Right.
So this is right, as we werechanging, or we had already
changed it, but people startedgoing to like contribution
margins and profitability docsand all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
We're talking about ROAS as frequently, and or
blended MERs and yes, yes, yes.
So so the plan.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
So they were efficient.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
But then, when we presented the reality of what it
costs to acquire a new customer, With, with with the type of
content they created and thetypes of products that they
created.
Yes, Right.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
And the amount of time it takes to turn those into
profitable new customers.
They did not like the idea ofit getting more expensive.
They also benefited from theInstagram boom, which a lot of
brands that are out there did,so they came out.
It was really easy to acquirecustomers meaning the very like
(16:53):
chronological yeah especiallyfemale based customers on
Instagram.
right, yeah, in 2013, 14, Ithink it's two thousand, like 14
, right to 2020, something likethat, yeah, so yeah, see, I was
gonna cost 13, 14, I think it's2014,.
Right To 2020, something likethat, yeah, so so, yeah, it was
going to cost more than theywanted in the on that first
purchase.
Yes, and, and, and let's just bereal and cause it and the
(17:16):
reason why it would cost more iscause they needed to acquire
more to fill their customerfunnel to replace what would be
end up becoming the diminishingreturn of their returning
cohorts.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yeah, so essentially, this happens a lot with
clothing brands and this isn'tjust a clothing brand discussion
, um, because this is going tofit into many brands that
require, uh, that requirecustomers to continue to come
back in order for them to beprofitable.
Yeah, ok, and so what happensoftentimes is, let's just like,
(17:52):
imagine that every company is afive gallon bucket of water, ok,
and, and every company hasholes.
Every bucket has holes drilledinto that bucket, okay, and so
(18:12):
when you fill it up with water,some companies have more holes
and other companies have biggerholes, and some companies have
less holes and some companieshave smaller holes.
So, as you're filling thiswater up, water is leaking out.
Now the big conundrum that manybrands will face is am I pouring
(18:34):
more water in than water goingout, right?
So is it either staying level,or is it always slowly rising,
but very, very slowly?
Or is it always slowly lowering, even though I'm constantly
pouring, because customers inthe clothing brand space like,
(18:57):
let's say, it's kids clothing,for example, kids clothing you
you are losing customers all thetime because your customers
grow out of your product.
Let's take a baby brand.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, your customers grow out of their product.
You might have a lifetime valueof a parent or household, right
Over five years, sure, buteventually they don't have kids
anymore.
Yeah, or there's a gap rightLike let's say that they're say
that maybe they really like youfor boys clothes and not.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
That's what I was gonna say yeah, maybe maybe you
have girls that you love theproduct for girls, and then you
have a boy and they still makeboys clothes, but you're just
like, oh no, I'd rather buy fromzara or whatever you know, or
you name the clothing brand.
So, yeah, whatever.
So, anyways, what was happeningwas we started to recognize
that, hey, because you guys havewanted to be so efficient, you
have been right.
(19:46):
You've seen this ROI number of,let's say it was a five.
I can't remember what it wasand they were really stoked
about that.
Hey, we're profitable, we're ata five, things are really
really great.
But what was happening was theyweren't recognizing that the
rate in which they wereacquiring customers, which is
the poor, which is the waterpouring into the bucket?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Was too slow.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Was too slow, so that was just lowering.
So every year it was like whoa,we've been so efficient, but we
made less money.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
The same logic applies really heavily with
subscription brands too.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
For sure, for sure, yeah, so yeah, this should play
to anybody who needs retreating.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
And I think this ends up being one of the big
fighting points behind the costcap advocatesists.
I'll call them yep, and costcap being a bidding, bidding
strategy in meta and the maxconversion, max value
evangelists is, I think in thesecertain situations we can
(20:45):
acquire.
If you're a media buyer, youcan acquire customers at a 2, 3,
4, 5 RX or return on ROI, rx.
Why do I say RX?
I don't know ROI and thatsounds really good, yep, except
it's really hard to growgenerally.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yes.
And you know, don't come at me,taylor Holliday and whoever
else.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Andrew Ferris yes, it's true, you can grow with
cost caps too.
I'm not saying it's either, orI think this is just generally
the principle that happens ishey, at some point you can
acquire customers profitably,but it depends on what your
overall business goals areTotally, and so with this
particular company, they wantedto keep acquisition at whatever
(21:36):
it was their CAC.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Let's just say I don't want to spend more than
$40 to acquire a customer.
Let's say they have a $90 AOV.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, but once you try to scale it that it usually
would start crumbling.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yes, yeah.
So we essentially just pitchthis plan to say hey, you guys
do a couple drops a month.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
And, yes, there's other pieces, like you said,
there's content, there's thetype of ads, there's a lot of
components here.
Sure, you can make thingsbetter all the time, right, but
generally speaking, let's justtalk about holding all that
constant.
Yes, hey, if you want toacquire more, this is the
barrier that we have.
Like, we're efficient in thislittle space, yes, but you got
(22:16):
to start competing, you got tostart expanding your addressable
market, and it's going to costmore money, but in the long run,
you will be more profitable andyou will be more efficient.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
And you'll be able to scale.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
And you'll be able to scale, but in the short run
it's going to hurt.
Yes, yes, because you're used togetting X amount of dollars for
every customer and you havethis returning customer base
that you're a little drunk onright now Yep, but before you
know it, this returning customerbase that you're a little drunk
on right now yep, but beforeyou know, this returning
customer base is going to begone.
Yeah, exactly.
So, anyways, it was adifference of opinion.
We, we left, yep, and then whathappened?
(22:56):
Is this company this was in,this was in just a timeline 2021
, early 2022 oh 2020, yeah likeearly 2022.
So over two years this companyshrunk by 90%.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yes, yeah.
You see, not only total revenueshrinks, but you see as they
immediately, almostinstantaneously, after working
with us, they shut budgets.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I mean, they cut budgets probably well, because
they were trying to be 70efficient on yep customers and
immediately the month that theycut budgets.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
New customer acquisition plummets plummets
and then eventually, within likefive months, they could turn it
off, or maybe it was fourmonths, they turned it off, they
went to a different agency yep,they turn it off completely.
And not only do you see, youknow, um, I'm just going to put
numbers out here just to like,just to help people understand.
(23:54):
Let's say they were at six, youknow.
Or we'll just say 10 million.
Okay, let's say they're at 10million.
The next year they dropped downto seven.
New customer acquisition was,let's say, if it was 10 million,
2 million Drops down to 1.5million from 2021 to 2022.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And this is where the strategic vision of efficiency,
because you start getting drunkon this idea, like, oh, we
didn't even drop that much.
Yeah, because for a year itdoesn't look like that bad.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah oh, hey, we dipped.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
You know, we went from 10 to hey, we're not
spending money and we only wentdown, so we were actually more
profitable.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yes, we only went down a million and a half
revenue was down 15%, 20%,whatever, but Profitability was
up 15% because we got rid of allthe ad budget, we got rid of
what we were paying for agencies.
Maybe they consolidated alittle bit, but anyways, all
said and done from 2021 to endof 20 to 2025.
(25:07):
But I want to emphasize thefirst year wasn't that bad.
First year wasn't that bad, itwas the.
It was the second to third yearthat was massive, and then the
third to fourth.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, right, so they essentially go from 10 million
cohorts are aging out andleaving, yep, you.
So you, you see a 10, 15 drop,yep, okay, but then from there,
so we, we go to from let's justcall it for math's sake 10 to 8,
8 and a half yep, but then theydrop from eight and a half to
(25:37):
four yep, and then and then thatkind of holds steady for about
three to six months, right, andthen it goes from four to 1.5.
Four to 1.5, yeah, yeah and then, and then, trajectory would be
around 700 for the for thiscoming year would be yes if
things went down that path wouldgo from 1.5 to 7 yep and and
(25:59):
and all I see it's like, it'slike clockwork, clockwork.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
The net new customer acquisition dip.
You just see the returning islike three months behind it.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah right, three months behind returning starts
to dip for every decision youmake with with new customer
acquisition and just so you knowwe're not, we're not bringing
this up to talk bad about theseparticular people because they I
don't think this founder hadthe right advisors around her.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Sure yes.
But also, at the same time,after talking with them in their
world, it was making the rightdecision for them.
They ended up at the time,consolidating the business and
getting rid of a lot of fat knowgetting rid of a lot of fat.
You trimming fat bad opx fromwhat they might have been paying
(26:52):
for warehousing internal hireshires.
That might not have beenefficient or whatever it was,
and so, anyways, the good newsis is like they had a aha moment
and they said shoot, we have tolike, figure something out here
, because we're not acquiringnew customers at the rate that
we need to.
Um, and, and that's whathappened is this leaky bucket.
(27:15):
Took them two and a half yearsbefore.
They were like oh no, this is aproblem.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, okay, so now and and we bring this up too,
because I don't think a lot ofpeople have the right advisors
or you know you come consultants, but this is, this is strategic
planning, that that we do andthere's others that do it great
too.
Totally.
(27:44):
But it's good to have somethird parties come in and look
at your business every once in awhile so that you can get an
independent view, an outsideview and idea of what your
business looks like in thecoming years, because I think
sometimes you get it.
I mean, we all do it.
I don't say this because I'mthe smartest guy around, it's
(28:08):
just it's easier to come in whenyou don't have like an
emotional investment and givereal advice.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Totally yeah, when you don't have, when you don't
have necessarily skin in thegame, right, sometimes, yeah,
sometimes it's hard and everyoneknows that in relationships,
yeah, a lot of people have ahard time Giving objective
advice in relationships becausethey're personally invested in a
relationship, so maybe theydon't want to hurt a feeling, or
maybe you know whatever it isso it's the same thing with a
(28:36):
business.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
It's it's.
Sometimes it is very valuableto work with an agency or a
consultant or just an advisorwho knows what they're doing?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, just to come in and look at it and maybe you
don't have to work with them,but and what was really nice
about when we presented this tohim is mark and I had experience
working with another company atthe time.
We'd only at the time, in like2020, 2019, 2020 had worked with
one other brand who had gonethrough something very similar.
We've now since worked withseveral that's that's been in
(29:05):
this very similar situation andwe watched that brand kind of
crumble.
Um, they were, they were theking and queen of the particular
industry that they were in andhad the ability to, at one point
, um, while we were working withthem, valuations were extremely
(29:26):
high uh, eight figure highevaluations to sell Um and
recently, uh, you know, becausethey didn't make some of those
decisions of filling up thatbucket, uh, quicker than it was
emptying Um, you know, we'vewe've heard recently that
(29:48):
they've sold for a massiveamount, less than what they
could have sold for.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I don't want to say pennies on the dollar.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
But Compared to what it was, yes, so now we have
another example and once again,mark and I this is like the
reason we want to talk aboutthis is because we have now
experienced this, whetherthey've been clients of ours or
people we've just consulted with, or whatever friends and
business owners who are goingthrough this.
So many of you are goingthrough this where it's like and
(30:17):
geez, it happens.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
It feels like this happened.
It has happened so many times.
I mean, on just thinking aboutit really quick, I mean there's
like what, five, seven companiesthat we are personally we've
intimately worked, yes, right.
That I don't know if I shoulduse the word intimately.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, Intimate seems weird but that we have
contractually worked with.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I don't like that word.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So so we're bringing this up because this was kind of
the first time that somebodycame back.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Like kind of the first time that somebody came
back, like they the problem thatwe said would happen.
No, that's not true.
Happened.
That's not true.
We currently are working withsomeone who came back.
Yeah, I know that was a.
That was more consulting.
Yeah, okay, fair enough, butstill sure, we we consulted with
someone we.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
They decided to go in house running their ads for
them.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
We were just consulting for them they decided
to go in house, yeah um, whichwas probably the right move for
them at the time.
Like they, they had a really badexperience with with an agency
yeah and they asked for somehelp of just like how to do it,
so some training, and like howto just bring it in house.
So we helped them.
It wasn't working out, but theyrecognized that, hey,
(31:31):
something's not working because,even though our returners are
coming back like we're doingeverything we need to do, it
seems like we're acquiring their.
Their revenue just keptshrinking and shrinking and
shrinking.
Yep, okay, and then, ever sincethey changed their strategic
outlook, it's gone up.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, they were they up really dramatically?
This company you're talkingabout was in the exact same
position that this company wasand very similar product, just
to a different demographic right.
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
But they have since been able to grow their online
store really significantlybecause they had the I guess the
right perspective of hey, eventhough it's getting harder to
acquire customers.
You can't just stop, you can'tjust deny reality, right?
(32:24):
You can't just say hey, I don'tlike gravity because it wears
me out over time, like itdoesn't matter using it I'm just
gonna pretend that gravitydoesn't exist.
No, it it.
It's there, it's happening.
But how do you adjust as acompany through operational
costs?
But also, yes, you can get moreefficient with ads.
(32:45):
But also, how do you just havea better understanding?
Because I think a lot of thisis companies operate in the dark
.
They have no idea.
A lot of people just don't havea good plan of OK, I can
stomach the pain if I know thebenefit will outsize it
(33:05):
Absolutely For sure, willoutsize it absolutely for sure.
And it's really hard to getover that if you don't have
someone in your, in your company, or if you don't learn how to
do it, or if you don't hiresomeone to show you hey, yes,
here's the reality.
Sorry, I know it hurts.
Yep, this is how you're goingto scale.
And then remember, mostcompanies that scale and get big
, they do it off very littlefirst time or first customer
(33:30):
profit Totally, if any at all.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
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Yeah, there's definitely brandsthat are first-time profitable
and we always shoot for that.
Obviously, you want to shootfor that, but in the clothing
(34:58):
space or a high-returningcustomer space, sometimes you
can get away with not beingfirst-time profitable, and so
with this brand Mark's talkingabout that it came back to us
when we were consulting for him.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
We told him, we pitched the same thing and said,
hey, the first two to threemonths are going to be brutal.
Yes, from an efficiency,especially because of how
profitable and efficient theyhad been for so long.
Totally it.
It was a hard move to make.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
But once again they were profitable and efficient.
But so profitability andefficiency was kind of like here
, maybe on the growth, butoverall growth was this, but
then they stopped growing andthen they started.
Eventually, profitabilitystarts to shrink and we and we
showed them this entireprojection yeah and we've done
this a few times with people.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
It's like hey, based off of your current returning
rates and based off of yourcustomer acquisition and your
cohorts and how your cohortsgrow over time but then shrink,
this is what's going to happenover the next two years.
It's it's not going to hurt now, but if you don't fix it now,
it's going to hurt.
It's going to hurt really badin three to four years, yep.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
And they, they just stuck with it for three months,
like we just said, give it threemonths, um, and they went from
not really being able to scaleoverall to, at month three,
scaling two to three x with thesame efficiencies.
Before we started, yeah, right,yeah, now the efficiencies
(36:29):
really dipped for two or threemonths, but then, boom, they
start to skyrocket.
Okay and so, yeah, the pointwe're just trying to make, guys,
is, if you stop growing, if youstop putting fuel in your gas
tank, you are going to savemoney.
Right, I'm not spending moneyon gas anymore, but eventually
(36:55):
you're not going to be able todrive your car.
Yeah, eventually it's going tostall out on the highway.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Well, if you run out of gas going 60, you'll coast
for a little.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, if you're going downhill.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
You don't stop immediately, but you're going
downhill.
You don't stop immediately,yeah, but so you're gonna stop,
and when it and as you graduallystop the stop, like you know
yeah you uh, your speeddecreases at an increased rate.
Right, correct, does that makesense?
That makes plenty sense to me.
So your your store.
(37:29):
You don't fill it immediately.
But if you prioritize the ideaof efficiency too much, yes, you
need efficiency metrics.
I'm not saying to throw them allout like, yeah, you have to be
profitable, you have to hitcertain goals right those are
all useful tools but, like if ifyou're operating for efficiency
(37:50):
sake, for only for efficiencysake, then sometimes you start
making decisions that will leadto a decrease of your store at
an increasing rate over time.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, and eventually you will, if you will
efficiently put yourself out ofbusiness.
Yeah, efficiently put yourselfout of business, yeah.
So, okay, there's an elephantin the room with this discussion
, because this plan that we'retalking about costs money right,
oftentimes the scale that costsmoney, because we're talking
about ad dollars and so thissituation can generally only
(38:25):
work dependent upon what yourcash flow looks like.
So let's talk about that for asecond.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, you do have to pay for it.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
You got to pay for it .
And if you don't have a creditline or investment or just cash
flow in the bank, how do you goabout doing it Right?
So the first and quickest andeasiest way is to develop a
really good ad strategy withgood content.
Ok.
But if you can't just throw onehundred thousand dollars or ten
(38:54):
thousand dollars or whateverthat number is, at ads to scale
at the rate you need to scale,you have to think about other
things, right?
So either one you need to thinkabout consolidation and making
things more efficient.
I can't tell you what'shappened to us lately.
Um is, we've, we we've kind ofchanged our processes quite a
(39:15):
bit and we've become much morethan just a media buying team
where we're just like, hey, giveus money, we'll spend it and
we'll tell you how it worked.
And we dive so much deeper intoeverything this brand is doing,
into everything this brand isdoing, even down into what their
OpEx looks like.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yeah, and I don't know if it's Not to necessarily
like work in that, but to butyou have to understand it, right
, yeah?
You have to understand it,because it's all interconnected
with profitability.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, yeah.
We have some clients who cometo us and say, hey, I need to
make for every dollar we spend.
I need to have like $6 inreturn.
And we're like that's crazy,why?
Oh, my OpEx is not, you know.
When you start to dive deeperinto it, you realize that
they've got hires.
That don't matter, they have awarehouse of you know and you're
like.
Oh, okay, yeah, you, just you.
You are poorly managing yourOpEx right.
(40:02):
So so if you can't do that,that's your number one place you
need to look.
Number one place is you got togo and just look under the hood
and see what's happening withinthe business, and as a business
owner, you have to be able tomake decisions that sometimes
might suck we're neveradvocating to fire people or
(40:24):
anything like that, but that'sthe reality of making sure
you're getting what you need outof a good, efficient OPEX.
So OPEX is number one.
Okay, Jump into it.
Look at, do you need thebuilding that you're in?
Do you constantly have to have?
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, like we've worked with a company that's
paying outrageous amounts oftaxes.
Oh yeah, Because they areheadquartered in California.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yeah, right in LA, that doesn't matter.
At the beginning it was coolfor them to do it because it was
LA made.
Now they're not even thatanymore.
So you know, and so they'verecently moved.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
And now I mean they're still in California, but
they're not LA taxed the waythey used to be.
They're more inland and somaybe it's not as sexy, I guess.
But the most sexy thing onplanet Earth is money, right?
Like it's not sexy to be on thebeach, I'd much rather be 20
(41:32):
miles inland with cash in mypocket and not insane amounts of
credit card debt and then I'drather drive to the beach.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah, profit, profit rules.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
So profit, profit.
Well, number one was ad game,right?
If you've got I mean, we're notsaying that just because you
got the money to not clean upopex, right?
I'm just trying to address somethings of like okay, well,
trevor, you might be talkingabout a brand who has the
ability to spend a hundred, 200,300, $400,000 a month.
I'm not that guy, I'm.
I'm.
You know, I might be onlymaking.
You might be listening and youmight be a.
I've only made a hundredthousand dollars in your
(42:03):
company's lifetime.
So if lifetime, so if I'mtalking to those people who just
don't have the money, you haveto get more creative.
Yeah, right, and so opex is oneway.
The second, the third way Iwould say is you gotta go.
We talk oftentimes about thefour different ways you can grow
, which is distribution,conversion rate, average order
value and getting repeatcustomers.
(42:24):
You know, in this sense, repeatcustomers, you know, in this
sense, repeat customersoftentimes comes from the first
three, right?
So if we're trying to fill upour bucket, let's ignore number
four for now and say you alreadyknow how to do that because
you've got good product,whatever.
If you can't afforddistribution, then you have to
find ways to get distribution soyou can product seed, you can
(42:49):
build ambassador programs andaffiliate programs and and I
mean product seeding is like themore I study I know everybody
is talking about UGC is like oh,ugc is overplayed.
And but like, at the end of theday, if you go and look at every
single brand who's crushing itright now, like I just posted a
TikTok video today about Amara,amara, amara, the colostrum
(43:11):
account, the not account, thecolostrum supplement brand.
They're like an AG1 essentially, but it's colostrum, not greens
.
How did AG1?
What does colostrum do?
I don't know, I don't know, butanyways, yeah, I don't know
either.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
It's like how?
I don't know, I don't know.
But anyways, yeah, I don't knoweither.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
It's like how did AG1 win?
They just put product in everysingle pretty health and
wellness person's hands and thenthey advertised.
Right?
I just got off the phone withComfort's founder.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
The sweatsuit Also.
Ag1 got a ton of money Ofcourse.
Got a ton of money of course.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
so they invested a ton of money into advertising to
make sure everyone knew whothey were yeah, they got tons of
seed rounds, right, I thinkthey did.
Let's, let's take, uh, let'stake comfort then yeah, comfort
okay, comfort.
I posted a video about theseguys.
It went completely viral.
The ceo called me and he's likeI just want to talk.
How did you know?
Like, how did you figure outthis information?
Let's's talk about it.
And I just asked him.
I'm like, bro, do you havefunding?
No, no funding.
(44:14):
How did you win?
He's like we just got ourproduct in every person's hands.
It was a sweatsuit company.
It is the most basic.
Uh, what's the word I'm lookingfor?
Uh, where there's too manypeople in the market, saturated.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Hoodies sweat it.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I'm looking at the hoodie you're wearing and I
could never tell you I Mean thiswas notice of rec I you could
have bought that on Amazon andyou could have spent $300 and
bought it from Brand name.
Yeah, whatever, right, sothey're basic things.
And this guy's making, he'skilling it, he's they're doing,
(44:51):
they're doing 30 million a month.
Right, like they're crushing it.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Maybe it's 20 million it's a combination of product
seeding and ads and ads, yes,and then they're doubling down
on ads so like the point.
I'm just trying to make thething about product seeding is
it helps people if you'reworking with a lot of, if you're
working with a lot ofambassadors, small and big, yeah
, like again, we're not sayinggo and get Kim Kardashian, no,
no, no, no.
(45:20):
We're just saying go and lookat people in your industry,
intent based ambassadors andinfluencers that are actually
passionate about whatever it isthat you can line up with.
Yeah, get your product in theirhands, work with them to run
ads with them.
It helps get, it even helpsboost your ads too.
(45:40):
Yeah, right, because thenyou're starting, you can
retarget their yeah, engagement.
It starts helping you.
It's a very nice symbioticrelationship that you can build
with people, so it goes hand inhand with ads but it's a good
way to grow organically.
It does have like it's.
That's not going to be thething that scales you to you
(46:01):
can't just do that yeah, youcan't just do that.
So if you're only doing thatand you think it's, not working,
it's probably because you'renot coupling it with ads.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Yeah, well, I mean even my wife, right, okay, so,
uh, pretty little just likebackground on my wife.
My wife is one of the mosthealthy people I know.
Right, I know your wife is verysimilar.
My wife is the type of personwho sends, like stool, samples
to doctors to know exactly thetype of things she should be
consuming in her body.
Right, like she is that personwho knows.
(46:31):
Right, like she is that personwho knows everything.
Like she will drink an extraglass of water and recognize
what it does to her body.
Like she is so in tune with herbody and what she puts in it
that it's crazy.
She, I mean she's, she's got theaura ring, she's got everything
you know.
So she's like, she's like shewill wake up and be like I
(46:52):
didn't get enough sleep, Iguarantee it, and it's sure
enough.
Like she just wake up and belike I didn't get enough sleep,
I guarantee it, and it's sureenough.
Like she just knows everything.
Where me, I'm like I don't knowanyways.
Okay, even she, she is working.
She is taking every supplementthat has been the most
scientifically possible wait.
She has had the most scientificwork done to say this is what
(47:12):
you should be taking, the mostscientifically researched.
Yes, from blood work to spit toeverything.
And even she almost yesterdaybought Armora because she's like
I just see everybody doing it.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yeah, I don't even know what is colostrum.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
I know it comes from cows.
I know colostrum helps, so it'snot collagen, no, it helps.
Babies like I know that.
Like if you have a baby who has, uh, I want to say what's the
what's the one where they haveto put them under lights?
Speaker 1 (47:45):
now let's try to get.
Let's try to get this uh armrow guy on here and tell us
about it's a woman who owns it,but they're women.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
So colostrum comes from breast milk.
So like those first, like thefirst uh, couple feedings ever,
like right, when a mom has ababy, your wife would know this
it's like colostrum that thebaby gets.
It's like almost, like there'sso many scientific facts that's
(48:11):
like if your baby gets thatcolostrum from you within the
first x amount of time, likethey will be so much better off,
like that's their, that's theirinitial like journey to health
and then eventually you don'tmake it anymore and it's just
breast milk but you can takecolostrum anyways.
Guys, the point I'm trying tomake, before we get into
(48:32):
scientific facts about whatcolostrum does, is my wife knows
she doesn't need that, basedoff of what tests she's done.
Yet she almost subscribed andstarted spending a hundred
dollars a month and I had tostop her.
Like don't you know your health?
You know you're actuallyalready getting colostrum in
some of the supplements, so whywould you buy a colostrum?
(48:53):
You don't need it.
But she's like I'm just seeingeveryone doing it and that's
what product seeding can do,mixed with ads and product
seeding is not that expensive.
Some products, it would beright.
We have a client who sellse-bikes and yeah, that's
expensive to seed that.
But if you're talking clothes,if you're talking supplements,
if you're talking jewelry, ifyou're talking clothes, if
(49:13):
you're talking supplements, ifyou're talking jewelry, if
you're talking food, if you'retalking anything in the CPG
space, it is not a lot of moneyto just say, hey, here's a pair
of earrings, yeah, hey here'ssome greens, so true.
And just get it out there.
So it's a great way.
Borrowed distribution is whatwe call it.
It get it out there, so it's agreat way.
Borrowed distribution is whatwe call it.
It's borrowed distribution andthen couple it with paid ads.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Well, that is a great way to wrap it up.
You know, full circle.
We went from Zuckerberg lookingat Jeff Bezos girlfriends
breasts to pay more money tosupport in breasts Zuckerberg.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Yeah, to pay dads with Zuckerberg yeah, to pay
dads with zuckerberg.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
You gotta keep feeding your baby.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
Your baby is your, your business.
The big thing, the big visualhere is think of your business
as a bucket of water and,depending on how big your holes
are, you have to just make sureyou're putting more in than is
leaking out and if you don't,that's as simple as it is.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
Yeah, and even if you don't think you have that leaky
of a bucket it is for sure.
Leaking yeah, every bucketleaks and maybe it doesn't leak
a lot, but eventually it itspeeds up yes, yeah, the holes
can be.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
Grayson asked the question, which is a really good
question.
He said have you guys touchedon what the holes can be?
Right, the holes can be athousand things.
The holes can be.
Grayson asked the question,which is a really good question.
He said have you guys touchedon what the holes can be?
Right, the holes can be athousand things.
The holes can be um in in thissituation, for, as we talk about
returning, when you relyreturning, your bucket of water.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Is the money right?
Like that you actually get tokeep yep and the holes would be
either operational costs rightit's, it could be it could be
hey, my kids grew out, so let'sdrill another hole.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
It could be my website sucks.
It could be my product isn'tgood, but in this case the water
is the money that's coming in.
The holes are the retentionrate, the lack of being able to
keep those people going for acertain because not no one
sticks with a brand all the time.
No, there's very few brandsthat people have stuck with like
(51:23):
can you?
Can you think of the longest?
I can, actually, I know thisone for me.
Can you think of what brandyou've stuck with the longest?
Speaker 1 (51:32):
mo define.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Stuck with you buy on a very consistent basis.
Grayson says vans, mine's quip.
Quip the toothbrushsubscription I.
I joined Quip in 2009.
(51:55):
And every month I get charged,or every three months.
Now I've edited it because Idon't use their toothpaste
anymore, because I use Xylitoltoothpaste Apple.
Yeah, you can't count that onethough.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
Why.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
It's just so big.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
That's the one.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
You can't count Apple .
You can't count that one,though, why it's so big?
Well, that's the one.
Can't get Apple.
You can't count Nike.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
But?
But the point I'm trying tomake is you can't think of
anything besides Apple.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
Guayaki yerba mate maybe.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Yeah, okay, and you're pretty relatively new,
last four years for you, I meanno, it's, I mean since, since I
got home from argentina sothat'd be 2014?
Speaker 2 (52:42):
oh, really, okay.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
I just heard about your remate, maybe four years
ago, then yeah, brand you know,guayaki's been around, hasn't
the one that's makes here, butnow there's a new one called
magic.
Yeah, yeah, I've, I've seen it.
That's Utah-based, that hassome adaptogens.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
Some mushies, some mushies in there.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
Yeah, so, but anyways .
Speaker 2 (53:00):
The point is you generally don't stick with
brands very long.
You do sometimes right.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Like I used to be diaper dyke-y and now more yeah,
like if you're talking likeapparel, which that's?
Speaker 2 (53:19):
that's a lot harder to stay with the brand for that
long totally right because like,even a competition.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yeah, if like, hey, I'm a, I like lululemon pants or
something yeah it's like well,roan makes good ones too, and so
does viory so and so cuts andand color, and I you know like
you name it.
I think nomadic just came outwith them too.
So how do you build brandloyalty?
Because I think, yeah, it'shard.
It's hard to be if you can havebrand loyalty which starts with
(53:46):
your product but has to go alittle bit more of an emotional
connection.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
And maybe that's a good topic for next week.
We've talked a ton aboutacquisition and filling the
bucket, so maybe next week wetalk about patching the holes.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
Right, especially with emotional-based psychology.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Yeah, I like it Cool.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Anything else you want to?
Speaker 2 (54:05):
add.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
I just need to go to the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Fair enough.
Well, you've had.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
You drank two poppies on the the set, so that makes a
lot of sense and a lot of watertoday, yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
Okay, alright, everybody.
Thank you so much.
We're glad we're consistentlyback.
We're back.
We won't have as big of a breakas we did.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
That was our fault.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
But we're back, so we're back, baby Subscribe,
download, do all the things.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
Show us some love.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
We'll see you guys next week.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Unstoppable Marketer
podcast.
Please go rate and subscribethe podcast, whether it's good
or bad.
We want to hear from youbecause we always want to make
this podcast better.
If you want to get in touchwith me or give me any direct
feedback, please go follow meand get in touch with me.
(54:56):
I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and TikTok.
Thank you, and we will see younext week.
You can't just deny reality, Right?
You can't just say hey, I don'tlike gravity because it wears
me out over time, like itdoesn't matter.
So I'm going to stop using it.
I'm just going to pretend thatgravity doesn't exist.
No, it's there, it's happening.
But how do you adjust as acompany through operational
costs?
(00:20):
But also, yes, you can get moreefficient with ads.
A lot of people just don't havea good plan of okay, I can
stomach the pain if I know thebenefit will outsize it
Absolutely.
And it's really hard to getover that if you don't have
someone in your company or ifyou don't learn how to do it or
if you don't hire someone toshow you.
(00:40):
Hey, yes, here's the reality.
Sorry, I know it hurts, butthis is how you're going to
scale.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yo, what's going on, everybody?
Welcome to the UnstoppableMarketer Podcast.
With me, as always, and back inthe studio, is Mark Goldhart.
Mark, how are you?
I'm well.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Good.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
How are you Great, you've recovered.
Yeah, we're were in the studio.
We're in our personal studioslast yeah now we're back.
It's been a minute since we'vebeen with Grayson and Film Lab
and I've missed you guys, sowe're back.
Yeah, thanks for being here,grace.
I was using my crappymicrophone.
(01:23):
If you listened to last weekepisode, hopefully it wasn't too
bad, but uh, we got it figuredout though.
I think it worked fine.
The content was good.
It was content was good.
We talked all about uh, so theepisode comes out.
The episode came out a dayafter.
(01:44):
I have to talk in future pasttense.
The episode, if you'relistening to this episode, the
previous week's episode came outtwo days after the ban.
Yeah, the ban was on the 19th.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
The episode dropped to the 21st, which is a Tuesday,
right, it's a 90 day extension.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah.
So we talked all about like,hey, this is how you make it, so
you don't just crash and burnif you have relied solely on
TikTok.
But it seems like that band'smost likely not going to go
forward.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
We need to check the polymarket odds.
Yeah, I don't think it's goingto go forward.
We need to check the polymarketodds.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, I don't think it's going to.
I never actually thought it wasgoing to, personally.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
So well, here Trump likes it too much.
Yeah, I mean he did call it out.
He said that's why he won theyouth vote, yeah, which we
called that out on this podcastmonths before the election
months before he won, or weeksat least, maybe not months.
Yeah, because we were watchingit.
(02:54):
It was like the new age mediaversus the old guard and we were
talking about how trump wastaking advantage of the podcast
and and he was getting on tiktokand he was doing these things.
That was connecting in a way,in a fun way.
Well, yeah To the youth.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
And just his natural presence and the things that he
does are oftentimes viral thingsthat suit the platform very
well.
For example, him handing outfries.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
He is kind of just like a ridiculous.
Yeah, handing out fries atMcDonald's.
Yeah, handing out fries.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Kind of just like ridiculous handing out fries at
mcdonald's.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah he's just kind of ridiculous it's a viral thing
.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So, yeah, listen to that episode, because whether
tiktok's banned or not, whetherit gets banned or not, that
episode is a really like it's aneye-opener episode.
Right, there was a lot ofpeople that I was talking to,
like I know a lot of creatorswho've built brands and products
on on tiktok solely, who justcouldn't even.
You know, they were besidethemselves, and so that episode
(03:54):
is a really good episode to helpyou understand that, at the end
of the day, you know, we don'town a lot and it can be taken
away, so you got to make surethat you've got.
Um, it's interesting, right, wetalk a ton about how there's so
many brands that always want todiversify like crazy, but then
(04:14):
you and me have kind of pulledback on the diversification
discussions to say, hey, no, youdon't need to be on Pinterest
and advertising on twitter andtiktok and meta and google yeah,
it's mastering you know ifyou're under a certain you know
we we tossed the number 20million out.
I don't know exactly how we'vegotten that, but that's just
sounds good yeah, that's kind ofwhat we've experienced.
(04:36):
No, I mean, we.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
We've just seen that in our client list and we've
also seen.
You know, if you just go ontwitter and follow people like
uh sean frank of ridge I know hehas also advocated for that in
the past- yeah, yeah, and he's ahundred, they're over a hundred
million dollar.
Yeah, brand so and he's, and Ithink he said like up to a
hundred million he might havesaid 50.
(04:58):
I think there's a 50, yeah.
Yeah, we'll have to go back andcheck so, so like that we'll
have to get him on the pod.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It's this world right of like diversity, you know
where?
To me it's like, okay, hey,couple ad channels, metagoogle,
but then, yes, of course, bedialing in your email, be
dialing in your SMS.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Those aren't channels .
Speaker 2 (05:20):
You can argue that they are.
They're not ad channels.
They're not advertisingchannels.
No, they're not.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
You can argue that they are, they're not
advertising, they're not, no,they are, I don't know, like,
that's just, they're not even.
Yes, they're part of youracquisition strategy.
But good, good grief, man, likeemail and SMS is just an
extension of your website,basically, or should be, yeah,
but people don't really treat itthat way so well.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
So yeah, we don't really need to get much more of
the TikTok ban.
One thing I do want to say, Iwant to point out Inauguration
Day happened.
I just want to point out myfavorite part of Inauguration
Day was Zuckerberg gettingcaught looking at Bezos' girls'
cleavage.
Yeah, that was awesome.
I saw that that was awesome.
(06:04):
I saw that that was like sogood, is that not just?
Speaker 1 (06:08):
a clever angle though .
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Have you seen?
Have you seen?
Yeah, I mean it could be, buteverything looks so like it
looks like Zuckerberg knewexactly what he was doing.
Do you know who Jack Mack is?
Do you follow Jack Mack?
He's the Barstool Sports.
He's part of the ball barstoolsports.
Organization, yeah and hecrushes it because he just like
(06:32):
takes these, he just takes likenews but less but, but puts more
of like a pop cultural vibe toit versus like Flooding in Italy
.
Yeah he's not doing that kind ofstuff.
He's taking events that areseemingly stupid but he makes
them into spectacles.
(06:53):
You know, and that one I meanhe was, he was one of the only
people, uh, at barstool, thatkamala harris reached out to her
team, reached out really tohave him interview her.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, but they didn't right, it wasn't there Like she
stipulations that she was likehey, send me your questions.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
He sent them and they wanted to and they were like no
, sorry, not going to happen.
But anyways he, he breaks itdown in slow mo and everything.
And it's so funny Like he.
So funny like he, likezuckerberg looks at him and then
(07:30):
like smirks and smiles like hejust got away with something.
And then she turns like reallyquickly and looks right what
looks to be right at him.
So he like he tenses up like hegot caught.
But she's talking.
She goes to say something tothe person right next to him, so
she doesn't him, but she likeimmediately looks in his
direction and then, once herealizes that she's talking to
(07:52):
the person next to him, he likesmiles and smirks again.
So to me it seems very like yes, it could be clever angles, but
to me it also looks like he sawit and he was doing it on
purpose.
I mean, she was very muchflaunting it you dirty dog to be
seen, I think, but zuck the car.
(08:15):
His carnal nature got the betterof him, didn't it on on
inauguration day, in front ofeverybody especially since, like
especially since a trilliondollars worth of people were
standing next to each other likethat was the most photographed
group, so it was really shockingthat he even tried microsoft
ceo.
You had it was microsoft orgoogle.
(08:36):
Meta twitter tesla spacex yeahand uh Tesla.
Spacex and Bezos A lot of money, nearly a trillion dollars.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
A lot of power, a lot of money.
They call it the Americanoligarch.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, so what are we talking about today?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
You think that's an oligarchy, Grace Grace said.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I don't know what that is.
What are we talking about?
Interesting discussion today.
Yeah, I think you want me toset the premise.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, yeah, set it up , so we get.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I got a LinkedIn message From somebody, from a
previous client, dum dum, dum,and she said hey, how are you?
What's up?
We're thinking about workingwith you guys again, which in
the agency world, just to be 100honest, doesn't happen like
(09:48):
once somebody leaves you, or youleave them very rarely, do you
continue to work like, do you?
Do you work up?
Speaker 1 (09:54):
work together again although it's happened with us a
few times it has happened morefrequently than I would have
ever assumed.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, um, we don't lose a lot of people for it to
be big.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
but yeah, yeah, Not to toot our own.
Our retention rate's reallylong, but it's more of a we
usually I mean of the peoplethat have left.
Sometimes it's just not a goodfit on for either side, Totally
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Totally, for many reasons.
Reasons, yeah, on both sides.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
so sometimes people yeah, for we can get into that
another day, but the pros andcons of just eight working with
agencies yeah I think it's areally good thing.
I think there's a lot of goodwork to be done from agencies
but sometimes, depending on yourflow as a company, it's not.
It might not be a good fit withhow you work an agency or just
(10:49):
that person.
There's many reasons um andthese guys either that's what
happens, like either you know,it's just not a good mesh
performance whatever, or a lotof the people that have, uh, out
of the that has left us, a lothas been because they end up
hiring in-house For sure.
Yeah, like they want to end up.
(11:10):
They think it's there's toomuch control of it's.
Either they think there's toomuch control over their company
from a third party yes, becauseyou're generating so much
revenue yes or it's hey, we justwant more control.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Just like to get on somebody all the time yeah,
often, oftentimes it becomes I'mspending this much money with
you guys.
I could find somebody one ortwo people to come work for me
full-time in-house, and then I'dbe able to call them at any
given time and have them doanything for me.
Yeah that's oftentimes a bigreason why somebody wants to go,
(11:46):
so so out of those reasons forleaving.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
When they come back, it's not as surprising, sure,
sure, because it's like, hey, wewant to go this direction, it
doesn't work out, couldn't findthe right people to do it.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
A year later, it's like, hey, this, yeah, this was
better so in this, in thissituation, we don't need to dive
too much into because we don'twant to give out too much,
because they left for what wefelt like was was a very
justifiable reason.
Uh, for for internal purposes,there was not a to you know, at
least to our knowledge, therewas not a hey, we don't like
(12:21):
working with you.
Hey, you're not doing good work.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
It was just a difference in how there's a big
difference in the strategicvision of how to accomplish the
goal, so which we, we were notin agreeance sure of of how to
accomplish the goals that theywanted to.
So we presented our plan.
They presented another.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
We were not de acuerdo, so we we decided to
split yeah, to be fair, theyattempted ours for a very brief
moment, less than a month,correct?
But it required more pain much,yeah, much more than that.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
So which we, which we are honest about, like yes, if
you want to accomplish thesegoals, this is the path, and
it's going to be painful for 30to 60 days.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
So I feel like we're being slightly cryptic.
Let's dive deeper into theproblem we're not going to talk
about.
We will not out who thesepeople are, ok, but it's.
Let's just say it's a clothingbrand, okay, and what this brand
was extremely good at wascreating high quality products
(13:39):
that once were in the hands ofthe customer.
The repeat purchase wasextremely strong, okay.
So I want to say I can'tremember at the time, but it was
around 80% returning customerrate and, and just to let
everyone know, an 80% returningcustomer rate doesn't mean that
(14:01):
80% of the people who buy cameback and bought again.
Meaning, if there were 10people, that doesn't mean that
80 of the people who buy cameback and bought again.
Meaning, if there were 10people, that doesn't mean that
eight of them came back andbought.
What just means of those 10people?
it means almost times yeahwhether it was by one person or
eight people, or two sure orthree which it tends to be two
yep, came back and bought fourtimes right, two people bought
(14:23):
four times or whatever.
Okay, so it tends to be two.
Yep, came back and bought fourtimes right, two people bought
four times or whatever.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Okay it tends to be out of 10 people.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Two come back and buy the majority.
Yeah, 80% of them.
80% customer return, customerrate.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And that was their situation.
They have a very strong loyalcohort.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
High lifetime value.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
High lifetime value of those specific people.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
People, but most people would come in and buy and
then not buy again so, so, andand they also were really great
at drops, so it was veryspecialized, unique stuff it
wasn't like they had basics,that people were just coming in
and out and buying all the time,okay, and so the plan was that
their issues were that, hey,revenue is we're not growing in
(15:07):
revenue, profitability revenueis not growing.
And when we jumped in andlooked under the hood, we
recognize that it was becausethey were actually relying too
much.
They were returning customersactually too high compared to
what their new customer ratioswere.
Right, agreed.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Well, the emphasis was placed on efficiency and
profitability.
Well, when I say profitability,I want to be careful with that
term but I say efficiency.
So the emphasis for them becamevery much efficiency focused,
which they were, and they werebeing efficient, blah, blah,
(15:50):
blah.
But and this is like rightafter iOS 14 and blah it is
Right.
So this is right, as we werechanging, or we had already
changed it, but people startedgoing to like contribution
margins and profitability docsand all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
We're talking about ROAS as frequently, and or
blended MERs and yes, yes, yes.
So so the plan.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
So they were efficient.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
But then, when we presented the reality of what it
costs to acquire a new customer, With, with with the type of
content they created and thetypes of products that they
created.
Yes, Right.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
And the amount of time it takes to turn those into
profitable new customers.
They did not like the idea ofit getting more expensive.
They also benefited from theInstagram boom, which a lot of
brands that are out there did,so they came out.
It was really easy to acquirecustomers meaning the very like
(16:53):
chronological yeah especiallyfemale based customers on
Instagram.
right, yeah, in 2013, 14, Ithink it's two thousand, like 14
, right to 2020, something likethat, yeah, so yeah, see, I was
gonna cost 13, 14, I think it's2014,.
Right To 2020, something likethat, yeah, so so, yeah, it was
going to cost more than theywanted in the on that first
purchase.
Yes, and, and, and let's just bereal and cause it and the
(17:16):
reason why it would cost more iscause they needed to acquire
more to fill their customerfunnel to replace what would be
end up becoming the diminishingreturn of their returning
cohorts.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yeah, so essentially, this happens a lot with
clothing brands and this isn'tjust a clothing brand discussion
, um, because this is going tofit into many brands that
require, uh, that requirecustomers to continue to come
back in order for them to beprofitable.
Yeah, ok, and so what happensoftentimes is, let's just like,
(17:52):
imagine that every company is afive gallon bucket of water, ok,
and, and every company hasholes.
Every bucket has holes drilledinto that bucket, okay, and so
(18:12):
when you fill it up with water,some companies have more holes
and other companies have biggerholes, and some companies have
less holes and some companieshave smaller holes.
So, as you're filling thiswater up, water is leaking out.
Now the big conundrum that manybrands will face is am I pouring
(18:34):
more water in than water goingout, right?
So is it either staying level,or is it always slowly rising,
but very, very slowly?
Or is it always slowly lowering, even though I'm constantly
pouring, because customers inthe clothing brand space like,
(18:57):
let's say, it's kids clothing,for example, kids clothing you
you are losing customers all thetime because your customers
grow out of your product.
Let's take a baby brand.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, your customers grow out of their product.
You might have a lifetime valueof a parent or household, right
Over five years, sure, buteventually they don't have kids
anymore.
Yeah, or there's a gap rightLike let's say that they're say
that maybe they really like youfor boys clothes and not.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
That's what I was gonna say yeah, maybe maybe you
have girls that you love theproduct for girls, and then you
have a boy and they still makeboys clothes, but you're just
like, oh no, I'd rather buy fromzara or whatever you know, or
you name the clothing brand.
So, yeah, whatever.
So, anyways, what was happeningwas we started to recognize
that, hey, because you guys havewanted to be so efficient, you
have been right.
(19:46):
You've seen this ROI number of,let's say it was a five.
I can't remember what it wasand they were really stoked
about that.
Hey, we're profitable, we're ata five, things are really
really great.
But what was happening was theyweren't recognizing that the
rate in which they wereacquiring customers, which is
the poor, which is the waterpouring into the bucket?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Was too slow.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Was too slow, so that was just lowering.
So every year it was like whoa,we've been so efficient, but we
made less money.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
The same logic applies really heavily with
subscription brands too.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
For sure, for sure, yeah, so yeah, this should play
to anybody who needs retreating.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
And I think this ends up being one of the big
fighting points behind the costcap advocatesists.
I'll call them yep, and costcap being a bidding, bidding
strategy in meta and the maxconversion, max value
evangelists is, I think in thesecertain situations we can
(20:45):
acquire.
If you're a media buyer, youcan acquire customers at a 2, 3,
4, 5 RX or return on ROI, rx.
Why do I say RX?
I don't know ROI and thatsounds really good, yep, except
it's really hard to growgenerally.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yes.
And you know, don't come at me,taylor Holliday and whoever
else.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Andrew Ferris yes, it's true, you can grow with
cost caps too.
I'm not saying it's either, orI think this is just generally
the principle that happens ishey, at some point you can
acquire customers profitably,but it depends on what your
overall business goals areTotally, and so with this
particular company, they wantedto keep acquisition at whatever
(21:36):
it was their CAC.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Let's just say I don't want to spend more than
$40 to acquire a customer.
Let's say they have a $90 AOV.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, but once you try to scale it that it usually
would start crumbling.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yes, yeah.
So we essentially just pitchthis plan to say hey, you guys
do a couple drops a month.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
And, yes, there's other pieces, like you said,
there's content, there's thetype of ads, there's a lot of
components here.
Sure, you can make thingsbetter all the time, right, but
generally speaking, let's justtalk about holding all that
constant.
Yes, hey, if you want toacquire more, this is the
barrier that we have.
Like, we're efficient in thislittle space, yes, but you got
(22:16):
to start competing, you got tostart expanding your addressable
market, and it's going to costmore money, but in the long run,
you will be more profitable andyou will be more efficient.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
And you'll be able to scale.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
And you'll be able to scale, but in the short run
it's going to hurt.
Yes, yes, because you're used togetting X amount of dollars for
every customer and you havethis returning customer base
that you're a little drunk onright now Yep, but before you
know it, this returning customerbase that you're a little drunk
on right now yep, but beforeyou know, this returning
customer base is going to begone.
Yeah, exactly.
So, anyways, it was adifference of opinion.
We, we left, yep, and then whathappened?
(22:56):
Is this company this was in,this was in just a timeline 2021
, early 2022 oh 2020, yeah likeearly 2022.
So over two years this companyshrunk by 90%.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yes, yeah.
You see, not only total revenueshrinks, but you see as they
immediately, almostinstantaneously, after working
with us, they shut budgets.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I mean, they cut budgets probably well, because
they were trying to be 70efficient on yep customers and
immediately the month that theycut budgets.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
New customer acquisition plummets plummets
and then eventually, within likefive months, they could turn it
off, or maybe it was fourmonths, they turned it off, they
went to a different agency yep,they turn it off completely.
And not only do you see, youknow, um, I'm just going to put
numbers out here just to like,just to help people understand.
(23:54):
Let's say they were at six, youknow.
Or we'll just say 10 million.
Okay, let's say they're at 10million.
The next year they dropped downto seven.
New customer acquisition was,let's say, if it was 10 million,
2 million Drops down to 1.5million from 2021 to 2022.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And this is where the strategic vision of efficiency,
because you start getting drunkon this idea, like, oh, we
didn't even drop that much.
Yeah, because for a year itdoesn't look like that bad.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah oh, hey, we dipped.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
You know, we went from 10 to hey, we're not
spending money and we only wentdown, so we were actually more
profitable.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yes, we only went down a million and a half
revenue was down 15%, 20%,whatever, but Profitability was
up 15% because we got rid of allthe ad budget, we got rid of
what we were paying for agencies.
Maybe they consolidated alittle bit, but anyways, all
said and done from 2021 to endof 20 to 2025.
(25:07):
But I want to emphasize thefirst year wasn't that bad.
First year wasn't that bad, itwas the.
It was the second to third yearthat was massive, and then the
third to fourth.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, right, so they essentially go from 10 million
cohorts are aging out andleaving, yep, you.
So you, you see a 10, 15 drop,yep, okay, but then from there,
so we, we go to from let's justcall it for math's sake 10 to 8,
8 and a half yep, but then theydrop from eight and a half to
(25:37):
four yep, and then and then thatkind of holds steady for about
three to six months, right, andthen it goes from four to 1.5.
Four to 1.5, yeah, yeah and then, and then, trajectory would be
around 700 for the for thiscoming year would be yes if
things went down that path wouldgo from 1.5 to 7 yep and and
(25:59):
and all I see it's like, it'slike clockwork, clockwork.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
The net new customer acquisition dip.
You just see the returning islike three months behind it.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah right, three months behind returning starts
to dip for every decision youmake with with new customer
acquisition and just so you knowwe're not, we're not bringing
this up to talk bad about theseparticular people because they I
don't think this founder hadthe right advisors around her.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Sure yes.
But also, at the same time,after talking with them in their
world, it was making the rightdecision for them.
They ended up at the time,consolidating the business and
getting rid of a lot of fat knowgetting rid of a lot of fat.
You trimming fat bad opx fromwhat they might have been paying
(26:52):
for warehousing internal hireshires.
That might not have beenefficient or whatever it was,
and so, anyways, the good newsis is like they had a aha moment
and they said shoot, we have tolike, figure something out here
, because we're not acquiringnew customers at the rate that
we need to.
Um, and, and that's whathappened is this leaky bucket.
(27:15):
Took them two and a half yearsbefore.
They were like oh no, this is aproblem.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, okay, so now and and we bring this up too,
because I don't think a lot ofpeople have the right advisors
or you know you come consultants, but this is, this is strategic
planning, that that we do andthere's others that do it great
too.
Totally.
(27:44):
But it's good to have somethird parties come in and look
at your business every once in awhile so that you can get an
independent view, an outsideview and idea of what your
business looks like in thecoming years, because I think
sometimes you get it.
I mean, we all do it.
I don't say this because I'mthe smartest guy around, it's
(28:08):
just it's easier to come in whenyou don't have like an
emotional investment and givereal advice.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Totally yeah, when you don't have, when you don't
have necessarily skin in thegame, right, sometimes, yeah,
sometimes it's hard and everyoneknows that in relationships,
yeah, a lot of people have ahard time Giving objective
advice in relationships becausethey're personally invested in a
relationship, so maybe theydon't want to hurt a feeling, or
maybe you know whatever it isso it's the same thing with a
(28:36):
business.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
It's it's.
Sometimes it is very valuableto work with an agency or a
consultant or just an advisorwho knows what they're doing?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, just to come in and look at it and maybe you
don't have to work with them,but and what was really nice
about when we presented this tohim is mark and I had experience
working with another company atthe time.
We'd only at the time, in like2020, 2019, 2020 had worked with
one other brand who had gonethrough something very similar.
We've now since worked withseveral that's that's been in
(29:05):
this very similar situation andwe watched that brand kind of
crumble.
Um, they were, they were theking and queen of the particular
industry that they were in andhad the ability to, at one point
, um, while we were working withthem, valuations were extremely
(29:26):
high uh, eight figure highevaluations to sell Um and
recently, uh, you know, becausethey didn't make some of those
decisions of filling up thatbucket, uh, quicker than it was
emptying Um, you know, we'vewe've heard recently that
(29:48):
they've sold for a massiveamount, less than what they
could have sold for.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I don't want to say pennies on the dollar.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
But Compared to what it was, yes, so now we have
another example and once again,mark and I this is like the
reason we want to talk aboutthis is because we have now
experienced this, whetherthey've been clients of ours or
people we've just consulted with, or whatever friends and
business owners who are goingthrough this.
So many of you are goingthrough this where it's like and
(30:17):
geez, it happens.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
It feels like this happened.
It has happened so many times.
I mean, on just thinking aboutit really quick, I mean there's
like what, five, seven companiesthat we are personally we've
intimately worked, yes, right.
That I don't know if I shoulduse the word intimately.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, Intimate seems weird but that we have
contractually worked with.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I don't like that word.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So so we're bringing this up because this was kind of
the first time that somebodycame back.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Like kind of the first time that somebody came
back, like they the problem thatwe said would happen.
No, that's not true.
Happened.
That's not true.
We currently are working withsomeone who came back.
Yeah, I know that was a.
That was more consulting.
Yeah, okay, fair enough, butstill sure, we we consulted with
someone we.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
They decided to go in house running their ads for
them.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
We were just consulting for them they decided
to go in house, yeah um, whichwas probably the right move for
them at the time.
Like they, they had a really badexperience with with an agency
yeah and they asked for somehelp of just like how to do it,
so some training, and like howto just bring it in house.
So we helped them.
It wasn't working out, but theyrecognized that, hey,
(31:31):
something's not working because,even though our returners are
coming back like we're doingeverything we need to do, it
seems like we're acquiring their.
Their revenue just keptshrinking and shrinking and
shrinking.
Yep, okay, and then, ever sincethey changed their strategic
outlook, it's gone up.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, they were they up really dramatically?
This company you're talkingabout was in the exact same
position that this company wasand very similar product, just
to a different demographic right.
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
But they have since been able to grow their online
store really significantlybecause they had the I guess the
right perspective of hey, eventhough it's getting harder to
acquire customers.
You can't just stop, you can'tjust deny reality, right?
(32:24):
You can't just say hey, I don'tlike gravity because it wears
me out over time, like itdoesn't matter using it I'm just
gonna pretend that gravitydoesn't exist.
No, it it.
It's there, it's happening.
But how do you adjust as acompany through operational
costs?
But also, yes, you can get moreefficient with ads.
(32:45):
But also, how do you just havea better understanding?
Because I think a lot of thisis companies operate in the dark
.
They have no idea.
A lot of people just don't havea good plan of OK, I can
stomach the pain if I know thebenefit will outsize it
(33:05):
Absolutely For sure, willoutsize it absolutely for sure.
And it's really hard to getover that if you don't have
someone in your, in your company, or if you don't learn how to
do it, or if you don't hiresomeone to show you hey, yes,
here's the reality.
Sorry, I know it hurts.
Yep, this is how you're goingto scale.
And then remember, mostcompanies that scale and get big
, they do it off very littlefirst time or first customer
(33:30):
profit Totally, if any at all.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
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Yeah, there's definitely brandsthat are first-time profitable
and we always shoot for that.
Obviously, you want to shootfor that, but in the clothing
(34:58):
space or a high-returningcustomer space, sometimes you
can get away with not beingfirst-time profitable, and so
with this brand Mark's talkingabout that it came back to us
when we were consulting for him.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
We told him, we pitched the same thing and said,
hey, the first two to threemonths are going to be brutal.
Yes, from an efficiency,especially because of how
profitable and efficient theyhad been for so long.
Totally it.
It was a hard move to make.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
But once again they were profitable and efficient.
But so profitability andefficiency was kind of like here
, maybe on the growth, butoverall growth was this, but
then they stopped growing andthen they started.
Eventually, profitabilitystarts to shrink and we and we
showed them this entireprojection yeah and we've done
this a few times with people.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
It's like hey, based off of your current returning
rates and based off of yourcustomer acquisition and your
cohorts and how your cohortsgrow over time but then shrink,
this is what's going to happenover the next two years.
It's it's not going to hurt now, but if you don't fix it now,
it's going to hurt.
It's going to hurt really badin three to four years, yep.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
And they, they just stuck with it for three months,
like we just said, give it threemonths, um, and they went from
not really being able to scaleoverall to, at month three,
scaling two to three x with thesame efficiencies.
Before we started, yeah, right,yeah, now the efficiencies
(36:29):
really dipped for two or threemonths, but then, boom, they
start to skyrocket.
Okay and so, yeah, the pointwe're just trying to make, guys,
is, if you stop growing, if youstop putting fuel in your gas
tank, you are going to savemoney.
Right, I'm not spending moneyon gas anymore, but eventually
(36:55):
you're not going to be able todrive your car.
Yeah, eventually it's going tostall out on the highway.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Well, if you run out of gas going 60, you'll coast
for a little.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, if you're going downhill.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
You don't stop immediately, but you're going
downhill.
You don't stop immediately,yeah, but so you're gonna stop,
and when it and as you graduallystop the stop, like you know
yeah you uh, your speeddecreases at an increased rate.
Right, correct, does that makesense?
That makes plenty sense to me.
So your your store.
(37:29):
You don't fill it immediately.
But if you prioritize the ideaof efficiency too much, yes, you
need efficiency metrics.
I'm not saying to throw them allout like, yeah, you have to be
profitable, you have to hitcertain goals right those are
all useful tools but, like if ifyou're operating for efficiency
(37:50):
sake, for only for efficiencysake, then sometimes you start
making decisions that will leadto a decrease of your store at
an increasing rate over time.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, and eventually you will, if you will
efficiently put yourself out ofbusiness.
Yeah, efficiently put yourselfout of business, yeah.
So, okay, there's an elephantin the room with this discussion
, because this plan that we'retalking about costs money right,
oftentimes the scale that costsmoney, because we're talking
about ad dollars and so thissituation can generally only
(38:25):
work dependent upon what yourcash flow looks like.
So let's talk about that for asecond.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, you do have to pay for it.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
You got to pay for it .
And if you don't have a creditline or investment or just cash
flow in the bank, how do you goabout doing it Right?
So the first and quickest andeasiest way is to develop a
really good ad strategy withgood content.
Ok.
But if you can't just throw onehundred thousand dollars or ten
(38:54):
thousand dollars or whateverthat number is, at ads to scale
at the rate you need to scale,you have to think about other
things, right?
So either one you need to thinkabout consolidation and making
things more efficient.
I can't tell you what'shappened to us lately.
Um is, we've, we we've kind ofchanged our processes quite a
(39:15):
bit and we've become much morethan just a media buying team
where we're just like, hey, giveus money, we'll spend it and
we'll tell you how it worked.
And we dive so much deeper intoeverything this brand is doing,
into everything this brand isdoing, even down into what their
OpEx looks like.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yeah, and I don't know if it's Not to necessarily
like work in that, but to butyou have to understand it, right
, yeah?
You have to understand it,because it's all interconnected
with profitability.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, yeah.
We have some clients who cometo us and say, hey, I need to
make for every dollar we spend.
I need to have like $6 inreturn.
And we're like that's crazy,why?
Oh, my OpEx is not, you know.
When you start to dive deeperinto it, you realize that
they've got hires.
That don't matter, they have awarehouse of you know and you're
like.
Oh, okay, yeah, you, just you.
You are poorly managing yourOpEx right.
(40:02):
So so if you can't do that,that's your number one place you
need to look.
Number one place is you got togo and just look under the hood
and see what's happening withinthe business, and as a business
owner, you have to be able tomake decisions that sometimes
might suck we're neveradvocating to fire people or
(40:24):
anything like that, but that'sthe reality of making sure
you're getting what you need outof a good, efficient OPEX.
So OPEX is number one.
Okay, Jump into it.
Look at, do you need thebuilding that you're in?
Do you constantly have to have?
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, like we've worked with a company that's
paying outrageous amounts oftaxes.
Oh yeah, Because they areheadquartered in California.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yeah, right in LA, that doesn't matter.
At the beginning it was coolfor them to do it because it was
LA made.
Now they're not even thatanymore.
So you know, and so they'verecently moved.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
And now I mean they're still in California, but
they're not LA taxed the waythey used to be.
They're more inland and somaybe it's not as sexy, I guess.
But the most sexy thing onplanet Earth is money, right?
Like it's not sexy to be on thebeach, I'd much rather be 20
(41:32):
miles inland with cash in mypocket and not insane amounts of
credit card debt and then I'drather drive to the beach.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah, profit, profit rules.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
So profit, profit.
Well, number one was ad game,right?
If you've got I mean, we're notsaying that just because you
got the money to not clean upopex, right?
I'm just trying to address somethings of like okay, well,
trevor, you might be talkingabout a brand who has the
ability to spend a hundred, 200,300, $400,000 a month.
I'm not that guy, I'm.
I'm.
You know, I might be onlymaking.
You might be listening and youmight be a.
I've only made a hundredthousand dollars in your
(42:03):
company's lifetime.
So if lifetime, so if I'mtalking to those people who just
don't have the money, you haveto get more creative.
Yeah, right, and so opex is oneway.
The second, the third way Iwould say is you gotta go.
We talk oftentimes about thefour different ways you can grow
, which is distribution,conversion rate, average order
value and getting repeatcustomers.
(42:24):
You know, in this sense, repeatcustomers, you know, in this
sense, repeat customersoftentimes comes from the first
three, right?
So if we're trying to fill upour bucket, let's ignore number
four for now and say you alreadyknow how to do that because
you've got good product,whatever.
If you can't afforddistribution, then you have to
find ways to get distribution soyou can product seed, you can
(42:49):
build ambassador programs andaffiliate programs and and I
mean product seeding is like themore I study I know everybody
is talking about UGC is like oh,ugc is overplayed.
And but like, at the end of theday, if you go and look at every
single brand who's crushing itright now, like I just posted a
TikTok video today about Amara,amara, amara, the colostrum
(43:11):
account, the not account, thecolostrum supplement brand.
They're like an AG1 essentially, but it's colostrum, not greens
.
How did AG1?
What does colostrum do?
I don't know, I don't know, butanyways, yeah, I don't know
either.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
It's like how?
I don't know, I don't know.
But anyways, yeah, I don't knoweither.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
It's like how did AG1 win?
They just put product in everysingle pretty health and
wellness person's hands and thenthey advertised.
Right?
I just got off the phone withComfort's founder.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
The sweatsuit Also.
Ag1 got a ton of money Ofcourse.
Got a ton of money of course.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
so they invested a ton of money into advertising to
make sure everyone knew whothey were yeah, they got tons of
seed rounds, right, I thinkthey did.
Let's, let's take, uh, let'stake comfort then yeah, comfort
okay, comfort.
I posted a video about theseguys.
It went completely viral.
The ceo called me and he's likeI just want to talk.
How did you know?
Like, how did you figure outthis information?
Let's's talk about it.
And I just asked him.
I'm like, bro, do you havefunding?
No, no funding.
(44:14):
How did you win?
He's like we just got ourproduct in every person's hands.
It was a sweatsuit company.
It is the most basic.
Uh, what's the word I'm lookingfor?
Uh, where there's too manypeople in the market, saturated.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Hoodies sweat it.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I'm looking at the hoodie you're wearing and I
could never tell you I Mean thiswas notice of rec I you could
have bought that on Amazon andyou could have spent $300 and
bought it from Brand name.
Yeah, whatever, right, sothey're basic things.
And this guy's making, he'skilling it, he's they're doing,
(44:51):
they're doing 30 million a month.
Right, like they're crushing it.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Maybe it's 20 million it's a combination of product
seeding and ads and ads, yes,and then they're doubling down
on ads so like the point.
I'm just trying to make thething about product seeding is
it helps people if you'reworking with a lot of, if you're
working with a lot ofambassadors, small and big, yeah
, like again, we're not sayinggo and get Kim Kardashian, no,
no, no, no.
(45:20):
We're just saying go and lookat people in your industry,
intent based ambassadors andinfluencers that are actually
passionate about whatever it isthat you can line up with.
Yeah, get your product in theirhands, work with them to run
ads with them.
It helps get, it even helpsboost your ads too.
(45:40):
Yeah, right, because thenyou're starting, you can
retarget their yeah, engagement.
It starts helping you.
It's a very nice symbioticrelationship that you can build
with people, so it goes hand inhand with ads but it's a good
way to grow organically.
It does have like it's.
That's not going to be thething that scales you to you
(46:01):
can't just do that yeah, youcan't just do that.
So if you're only doing thatand you think it's, not working,
it's probably because you'renot coupling it with ads.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Yeah, well, I mean even my wife, right, okay, so,
uh, pretty little just likebackground on my wife.
My wife is one of the mosthealthy people I know.
Right, I know your wife is verysimilar.
My wife is the type of personwho sends, like stool, samples
to doctors to know exactly thetype of things she should be
consuming in her body.
Right, like she is that personwho knows.
(46:31):
Right, like she is that personwho knows everything.
Like she will drink an extraglass of water and recognize
what it does to her body.
Like she is so in tune with herbody and what she puts in it
that it's crazy.
She, I mean she's, she's got theaura ring, she's got everything
you know.
So she's like, she's like shewill wake up and be like I
(46:52):
didn't get enough sleep, Iguarantee it, and it's sure
enough.
Like she just wake up and belike I didn't get enough sleep,
I guarantee it, and it's sureenough.
Like she just knows everything.
Where me, I'm like I don't knowanyways.
Okay, even she, she is working.
She is taking every supplementthat has been the most
scientifically possible wait.
She has had the most scientificwork done to say this is what
(47:12):
you should be taking, the mostscientifically researched.
Yes, from blood work to spit toeverything.
And even she almost yesterdaybought Armora because she's like
I just see everybody doing it.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yeah, I don't even know what is colostrum.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
I know it comes from cows.
I know colostrum helps, so it'snot collagen, no, it helps.
Babies like I know that.
Like if you have a baby who has, uh, I want to say what's the
what's the one where they haveto put them under lights?
Speaker 1 (47:45):
now let's try to get.
Let's try to get this uh armrow guy on here and tell us
about it's a woman who owns it,but they're women.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
So colostrum comes from breast milk.
So like those first, like thefirst uh, couple feedings ever,
like right, when a mom has ababy, your wife would know this
it's like colostrum that thebaby gets.
It's like almost, like there'sso many scientific facts that's
(48:11):
like if your baby gets thatcolostrum from you within the
first x amount of time, likethey will be so much better off,
like that's their, that's theirinitial like journey to health
and then eventually you don'tmake it anymore and it's just
breast milk but you can takecolostrum anyways.
Guys, the point I'm trying tomake, before we get into
(48:32):
scientific facts about whatcolostrum does, is my wife knows
she doesn't need that, basedoff of what tests she's done.
Yet she almost subscribed andstarted spending a hundred
dollars a month and I had tostop her.
Like don't you know your health?
You know you're actuallyalready getting colostrum in
some of the supplements, so whywould you buy a colostrum?
(48:53):
You don't need it.
But she's like I'm just seeingeveryone doing it and that's
what product seeding can do,mixed with ads and product
seeding is not that expensive.
Some products, it would beright.
We have a client who sellse-bikes and yeah, that's
expensive to seed that.
But if you're talking clothes,if you're talking supplements,
if you're talking jewelry, ifyou're talking clothes, if
(49:13):
you're talking supplements, ifyou're talking jewelry, if
you're talking food, if you'retalking anything in the CPG
space, it is not a lot of moneyto just say, hey, here's a pair
of earrings, yeah, hey here'ssome greens, so true.
And just get it out there.
So it's a great way.
Borrowed distribution is whatwe call it.
It get it out there, so it's agreat way.
Borrowed distribution is whatwe call it.
It's borrowed distribution andthen couple it with paid ads.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Well, that is a great way to wrap it up.
You know, full circle.
We went from Zuckerberg lookingat Jeff Bezos girlfriends
breasts to pay more money tosupport in breasts Zuckerberg.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Yeah, to pay dads with Zuckerberg yeah, to pay
dads with zuckerberg.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
You gotta keep feeding your baby.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
Your baby is your, your business.
The big thing, the big visualhere is think of your business
as a bucket of water and,depending on how big your holes
are, you have to just make sureyou're putting more in than is
leaking out and if you don't,that's as simple as it is.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
Yeah, and even if you don't think you have that leaky
of a bucket it is for sure.
Leaking yeah, every bucketleaks and maybe it doesn't leak
a lot, but eventually it itspeeds up yes, yeah, the holes
can be.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
Grayson asked the question, which is a really good
question.
He said have you guys touchedon what the holes can be?
Right, the holes can be athousand things.
The holes can be.
Grayson asked the question,which is a really good question.
He said have you guys touchedon what the holes can be?
Right, the holes can be athousand things.
The holes can be um in in thissituation, for, as we talk about
returning, when you relyreturning, your bucket of water.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Is the money right?
Like that you actually get tokeep yep and the holes would be
either operational costs rightit's, it could be it could be
hey, my kids grew out, so let'sdrill another hole.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
It could be my website sucks.
It could be my product isn'tgood, but in this case the water
is the money that's coming in.
The holes are the retentionrate, the lack of being able to
keep those people going for acertain because not no one
sticks with a brand all the time.
No, there's very few brandsthat people have stuck with like
(51:23):
can you?
Can you think of the longest?
I can, actually, I know thisone for me.
Can you think of what brandyou've stuck with the longest?
Speaker 1 (51:32):
mo define.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Stuck with you buy on a very consistent basis.
Grayson says vans, mine's quip.
Quip the toothbrushsubscription I.
I joined Quip in 2009.
(51:55):
And every month I get charged,or every three months.
Now I've edited it because Idon't use their toothpaste
anymore, because I use Xylitoltoothpaste Apple.
Yeah, you can't count that onethough.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
Why.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
It's just so big.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
That's the one.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
You can't count Apple .
You can't count that one,though, why it's so big?
Well, that's the one.
Can't get Apple.
You can't count Nike.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
But?
But the point I'm trying tomake is you can't think of
anything besides Apple.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
Guayaki yerba mate maybe.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Yeah, okay, and you're pretty relatively new,
last four years for you, I meanno, it's, I mean since, since I
got home from argentina sothat'd be 2014?
Speaker 2 (52:42):
oh, really, okay.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
I just heard about your remate, maybe four years
ago, then yeah, brand you know,guayaki's been around, hasn't
the one that's makes here, butnow there's a new one called
magic.
Yeah, yeah, I've, I've seen it.
That's Utah-based, that hassome adaptogens.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
Some mushies, some mushies in there.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
Yeah, so, but anyways .
Speaker 2 (53:00):
The point is you generally don't stick with
brands very long.
You do sometimes right.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Like I used to be diaper dyke-y and now more yeah,
like if you're talking likeapparel, which that's?
Speaker 2 (53:19):
that's a lot harder to stay with the brand for that
long totally right because like,even a competition.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yeah, if like, hey, I'm a, I like lululemon pants or
something yeah it's like well,roan makes good ones too, and so
does viory so and so cuts andand color, and I you know like
you name it.
I think nomadic just came outwith them too.
So how do you build brandloyalty?
Because I think, yeah, it'shard.
It's hard to be if you can havebrand loyalty which starts with
(53:46):
your product but has to go alittle bit more of an emotional
connection.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
And maybe that's a good topic for next week.
We've talked a ton aboutacquisition and filling the
bucket, so maybe next week wetalk about patching the holes.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
Right, especially with emotional-based psychology.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Yeah, I like it Cool.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Anything else you want to?
Speaker 2 (54:05):
add.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
I just need to go to the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Fair enough.
Well, you've had.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
You drank two poppies on the the set, so that makes a
lot of sense and a lot of watertoday, yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
Okay, alright, everybody.
Thank you so much.
We're glad we're consistentlyback.
We're back.
We won't have as big of a breakas we did.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
That was our fault.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
But we're back, so we're back, baby Subscribe,
download, do all the things.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
Show us some love.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
We'll see you guys next week.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Unstoppable Marketer
podcast.
Please go rate and subscribethe podcast, whether it's good
or bad.
We want to hear from youbecause we always want to make
this podcast better.
If you want to get in touchwith me or give me any direct
feedback, please go follow meand get in touch with me.
(54:56):
I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and TikTok.
Thank you, and we will see younext week.
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