February 11, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of the Unstoppable Marketer podcast, hosts Trevor and Mark discuss the importance of disruption in marketing, using Melbourne Golf and Jason Day's controversial outfits as a case study. They explore how creating advocates and enemies through bold marketing strategies can lead to brand growth and industry disruption. They emphasize the need for e-commerce businesses to adapt and innovate in 2025 to stay competitive in an increasingly challenging market.
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Yo, what's going on everybody?
Welcome to the UnstoppableMarketer podcast, with me, as
always, my co-host, markGoldhart.
Mark, how are you doing today?
Great?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I'm really good.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
We're on a roll.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
With podcasts, that is.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Yeah, we're getting back to some consistency.
Yeah, we.
The holidays really ruined usSlow is smooth and smooth is
fast as fast.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I think we've recorded every week here in
january.
We're now in february, so Ithink we're in a good spot great
, we're in a good spot, yeahback on track.
Got some guests lined up, nottoday, sorry no I had a good one
last last.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, I tested it out ?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Oh, did you the tent?
I have not, I was going to askyou.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I didn't spend a night in it.
I was going to ask you.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
He gave us one.
One was more of a light one,one was more of a heavy duty.
I have the heavy duty one.
I don't know why we got theones we got, but as somebody who
camps more, I was going tooffer you which one would you
rather have?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I think I mean we can discuss after, but I do have.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I think we should do it on the podcast.
So I do, I do already have likea heavy duty, heavy duty setup.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So you keep yours then so I wasn't worried about
it.
All right, like this is more ofan ancillary.
Yeah, nice, hey, grandpa wantsto be there, but yeah.
There's not a lot of room inthe trailer for him Got it Well,
but anyways, yeah, I set it up.
It was great.
Let's go, let the kids play init, that's cool.
(01:45):
I yeah, go test it up.
Just put it up on your balconyor something.
Yeah, I should.
We had a couple trees in thebackyard, we can put it up.
Just lay down see how it feels.
Was it nice?
It's very nice, sweet.
It is way better than a hammockas advertised.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
What about better than a tent?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well, for sure, better than a tent, because a
tent's always a tent.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, okay, for sure better than a tent's always a
tent.
Yeah, okay for sure, betterthan a tent.
We'll shout out for havenhammock.
A little shout out for haventents right there, that was fun.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
We'll cut this segment up and for an ad,
derrick and it's very quicklistener, so he's listening to
this right, yeah, he is, andit's very quick setup.
I got it set up in like fiveminutes really as a, as a first
timer, as a virgin yes, I didall right.
Well, there, there you perhapsmaybe seven minutes, but it felt
like five minutes okay,perceptions, reality like the,
(02:32):
the only thing that's like if heis.
I don't know how long it tooklike inflate sure the pad
doesn't count though.
I don't think that can?
Yeah, cuz that's not on youright.
Packing it away was really nicetoo.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I'll give it.
I'll give it a little setup.
It's been so warm here yeah,it's weird we went night skiing
last night and it was great itwas 50 degrees while you were
there, while we were there, nicesundance, amazing, I mean.
It was awesome, but it wasn'tat the same time Because the
(03:05):
snow Like one Sundance doesn'tget tons of snow Like compared
to the other resorts.
It still gets amazing snow butlike there were areas where like
it got kind of earthy In placesthat it shouldn't be earthy,
because like so many people aregoing, and it was crazy.
It got like 8 inches of snow Acouple days ago too, so it was
kind of a bummer, like it wasreally cold.
Sundance is just a little lowerelevation right lower elevation
(03:27):
and the sun hits it.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So it is, it is uh south facing on a lot, on a lot
of parts not the whole, not thewhole resort.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
There's a couple parts of the resort that are not
, but I'd say half the resort issouth facing and in fact, the
the, the um canyon south facing.
So as you're driving up, excuseme me, if you go up Big
Cottonwood, Little CottonwoodCanyon, which is to like some of
the best resorts in the worldcanyons, by the way, if you're
listening there's, you know,three feet of snow everywhere
(03:56):
right here.
It's just all dirt and rockbecause it's facing the sun, so
it all melts and then you kindof like loop around and then
it's all snowy okay, and theymake their own snow too, right,
yeah, for sure.
So it was nice, but it was hardfor my kids because when it gets
super slushy it like starts tocreate moguls.
It's almost like powder, youknow.
(04:16):
And so my kids, who are kind ofin their like learning stages,
like they struggled to make goodturns and well, yeah, it's just
it's like grabby, yeah, itslows you down so, but it's fun.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
It's when you're light.
You can't really push throughit as easy.
Yeah, yeah, that's fun.
Well, yeah, speaking of stickyspots, yeah tariffs oh, tariffs,
yeah, let's talk about thetariffs and disruption for many
advertisers and businesses rightnow.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, what are tariffs going to be doing?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
The real answer is nobody knows.
Yeah, but because of that, Ithink it's creating some
uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's how I would describe it.
So our advice right now justTLDR, we're not going to go like
super deep into it.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, just because there's so many different ways
you can look at the benefits oftariffs and the pros and cons.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Well, there's always an immediate con to a quote
tariff, especially if you'rebringing in your product from
China.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
It's a long-term solution, not a short-term.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, so the way this administration is approaching
tariffs is hey, we're going to,because a tariff is a tax, so
taxes are going to go up, right,right for the supply side of a
lot of businesses.
So the question is will taxesgo down for things like business
(05:54):
tax, income tax, right, willinflation go down?
And?
And the problem, though, islike tariffs are always
immediate.
What I'm suggesting on the, onthe back of this, of what this
administration is proposing, alot of this isn't exactly
immediate, unless there is likea hey, we're getting rid of
income tax, which they claimthey want to do.
(06:15):
I mean, I don't know how realor not real that is.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
But if you get rid of income tax and like, tariffs
aren't a big deal becausepurchasing behavior Genius Would
change pretty dramatically.
Totally so.
That's.
That's the game we're playingnow.
I'm under the impression thatwe're in a wait and see phase.
Like I, we're not reallyadvising people that they should
go and mass order from Chinaright now.
(06:40):
No right, Like, oh, go, orderthree years worth of inventory
because you might have to payextra in three months and that
might and that might not be.
We went through this in 2016.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, we know a lot of cases where that turned out
really bad for some companiesyeah, be super careful with that
because, like mark said, whentrump was in administration and
he increased the tariffs andtalked about that, we at the
time were working with a companywho was working with faux
leather goods and we tripledwhat we would order to save on
tariffs and we did technicallysave on tariffs, but it put us
(07:12):
in a really challengingsituation because we didn't know
how long faux leather wouldlast.
So it was just sitting onshelves for 12, 18 months
because we had just stockpiledstuff.
So it's a really risky.
So just be careful.
Based off of materials, basedoff of you, you could, you could
update a product, you could.
(07:33):
You know what I mean.
Like if you're selling abackpack that's a bestseller and
you order 10 X or five X, whichyou normally would, and then
you find like some outrageouslyawesome updates to that backpack
and now, all of a sudden, youhave 10 000 units of the less
quality, you know.
So there's.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
There's lots of things you need to be careful
with yeah, and, and most of thepeople who listen to this at
least, if you're in e-commerce Imean, most businesses are like
this, but especially e-commerceyou just you're really dependent
on, or the blood of yourbusiness is the cashflow.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Right, and you cannot be bleeding out too much, too
quick.
And so if you think, oh, I'mjust going to hurry and take out
a big loan I mean, interestrates aren't great.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I'm going to go take out this or make this like
upfront investment.
Now just do your due diligenceand what what your business is
like, because every po is cashgoing out the door.
So you're not.
It's hard, you know.
E-commerce is not this get richquick scheme.
Yeah, you're building realbusinesses and it's.
(08:39):
Yes, it's all on the internetand some people have this image
of like, oh, I'm just going tomake it rich because my business
is doing 10 million a year, butthere's a lot of businesses out
there that do really well andpeople are not making a lot of
money out of them.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, and not to mention, like your cost of
acquiring customers, at leastfrom a paid ads perspective.
It's gone up the last fouryears every year Like it's never
going down.
It's not going down this year.
Um, not yet.
Yeah, so, not yet.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
So if you, well, it has gone down since quarter four
, but it has not gone down yearover year typical trend.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, year over year is what we're saying.
So so just be careful, right,because if you flush out a lot
of your cash flow and anunexpected increase in your
marketing expenditures happens,you could be in a difficult
situation which we've seen thisright.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
So I think meta revenue grew 16 percent.
Had inventory only went upfour%.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I think it was.
Your numbers are almost.
Yeah, I think it was like 14%and 6% or something like that.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
14% and 6%.
But the point you're making isso we'll just call it 15% and 5%
.
Perfect yeah, more wholenumbers, so revenue outpaced
right the inventory.
So what that means is thatthere was more demand, so more
people buying into theplacements, than actual More
demand for ads than eyes to see,which is a problem.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
It can be a problem.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Let those with eyes willing to see see.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Exactly so, with those who are willing to see.
Exactly so.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
With those who are willing to pay will pay.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So, speaking of disruption, um and, and the
discussion we're having rightnow, right, with things getting
more and more challenging, it'sgoing to take.
I think, if you're ane-commerce business, listening
to this, 2025 just needs to beand, and there's a reason why
Mark and I we've I feel likewe've been kind of almost
beating a dead horse over thelight.
(10:48):
Is that the saying?
Beating a dead horse, right,where you're doing something
over and over again?
Yeah, messed up a lot, yeah mywife beat a dead horse beat a
dead horse, but we've beentalking about disruption,
difference change.
It's like you know, the lastprobably five episodes has been
let me not fully about that, butwe dive into that and there's,
(11:08):
there's like another tangent atleast I'd like to go down,
because 2025 is panning out tobe very similar, like you said,
like ad revenues up, adplacements or uh, ad um is
outpacing ad inventory inventorythat was the word I was looking
for.
Ad inventory is not as high,right, it still grew, just not
(11:31):
as high as revenue.
So if that's the case, it meansyour cost, your cost to acquire
customers.
If you don't changes andchanges could be a myriad of
things are going to naturally goup.
They're going up, yeah, anddepending on what happens in
your category, right.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Because that just means the supply-demand curve
right yeah For placing your adhas gone up.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
That's not also taking into consideration what
the buyer behavior is.
Totally, totally so.
We're not talking about thesupply demand curve for buying
products.
We're talking about the supplydemand for placing an ad in
front of people.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, yeah, totally like like there was.
What mark is saying, see, forexample, is like uh, what was
the year of the tumblr that justthe tumblr exploded?
It was like 2000 probably fouryears ago 20.
Yeah well, yeah, 2019.
You know, 2019 was when stanleylike emerged and they stanley
(12:31):
wasn't selling them fromstanleycom, stanley was selling
them from likea boutiquedistributors like they would
like do collaborations with themyeah, I don't remember yeah and
then it was probably 2020, 2021that stanley said we're not
doing this anymore with you.
Like we have something here,let's go full, full in on it.
And then you have the hydrojugs and everybody else.
(12:52):
So yeah, let's call it 2021where like tumblers, like,
really like, came out.
That's the buying behavior.
That, martin, like your adplacements could go, like your
ad costs from how much it'scosting to place the ads could
go up, but, like a buyingbehavior, could also go up and
could make your cost peracquisition actually much lower
(13:13):
because of demand.
So, um, but okay, so this iswhat I want to talk about.
So the golf, let's talk thegolf industry.
So, um, the golf industry, ifyou're listening to this, is a
very old, traditional, um,predictable industry.
(13:35):
When you're think, when youthink golf, give me a persona,
tiger woods, that's your persona, tiger woods, oh, a persona yes
, persona who yes, in your, inyour head, if you're okay, yeah
who is, who is the persona?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
it's a a persona is like you're a white, 30 to 50
year old white guy who's a whitecollar job.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Maybe has a little bit of a dad bod, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Has enough money to play, probably married, maybe
kids, maybe kids.
Drinks a little and wears khakipants, white shoes and a collar
shirt yeah, like the old guardof golfing, yeah, yeah and and
(14:28):
so in the golf world you havelike four.
I mean there's, there's,there's plenty of brands that
everybody knows, but there arereally four household names in
the golf world which I am not agolfer, but I'm sure if I named
I could name them all.
Yeah, you are not.
I am a golfer, you're not.
So name the four brands I'mthinking of.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Callaway Yep.
That's one Titleist Yep Nike.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Not really anymore, because Nike's kind of pulled
out of besides apparel like theyused to do.
But I think Nike is a safe onethat could be across it.
So I'm going to say fivebecause Nike should probably be
there.
Just because because they're,nike does everything, because
they're a brand.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, they're a brand .
Okay.
So the other one I see a lot atleast on just like a regular
people is a Travis Matthews orsomething okay.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Okay, that's interesting that you say that
one.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Like I see that on.
Yeah, at least people our age.
I always see the hats.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
You're missing like two really really big ones.
Ten times bigger than TravisMatthew Taylor, oh, taylor made
Taylor made Okay because we'regoing clubs Yep, does Taylor
made make apparel?
I we're going clubs Yep, doesTaylorMade make apparel?
I think they do now.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
And then Ping.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Ping was going to be the.
Yeah, I was going to say Ping.
Those are your.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And then you got, I mean there's, oh.
So I'm thinking, yeah, and youcan go Callaway too, sorry,
callaway, oh okay, sorry.
I said Callaway Titleist, okay,cool, awesome.
So now you could say, oh,there's, there's Cobra and
there's Mizuno, and yeah, yes,there's some.
I don't know any of thosebrands like those brands, like I
know on good authority, areactually not big, profitable
(16:10):
companies like a lot of peoplethink of, like Mizuno, as like
oh, yeah, they're everywhere,but it's like they're not that
big.
Okay, so you have, in thisworld there are tons of a
collect.
I call them like boutique golfbrands.
So travis matthews was one ofthose that broke out yes, they
broke out.
And they broke out because theyhad tons of money and they were
(16:33):
kind of the pioneer of gettingsomething different than a nike
polo yeah, they were apparelfocused.
Yes, and they were like one ofthe very, very first that were
like a little bit cooler, okay,okay.
So they, they, they were the,they were the leaders of the hey
.
You don't just have to have anike polo or an og polo or a
(16:56):
titleist.
You know, you know, you know alogo.
You know a title list logo orback in the day it was, uh, oh,
my gosh, what is it?
Uh, ashworth clothing.
You know some of these likeolder legacy kind of stuff, but
these boutique brands are havinga hard time, like they're.
They're getting to this, likeyou know, five to maybe 20
(17:19):
million dollar range in annualsales, but they're having a hard
time breaking into themainstream.
Your average joe golfer, likemy dad my dad's 60 years old,
he's, he's wearing khakis whenhe plays, he's got the polo on
that generally has like his worklogo on it.
You know, like that's my dadright and he's got the polo on
that generally has like his worklogo on it.
You know, like that's my dadright and he's playing with
(17:41):
tailor-made clubs and the onlyreason he has a jones golf bag
is because I got him a jonesgolf bag right, but beforehand
he had a titleist probably golfbag or something, maybe an og
yeah yeah, maybe an og.
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So, so, okay, what am I?
I've set the stage here.
What am I trying to get out?
So enrolls a company calledmalbin golf and malbin golf this
is a relatively new yeah, they.
Probably.
They started around 2016.
(19:30):
So they started right when welaunched asher.
Like.
We launched asher golf, whichis also like a boutique golf
apparel company, in 2017 and um,and they had launched it and
before it was like more of astore experience.
So like they had something offfairfax avenue in hollywood
where it was like a golfsimulator and the guy who owned
(19:53):
it was a creative director andhe would produce things for,
like celebrities, so like hecould get justin bie Bieber into
his golf studio and he wouldget dream and green in there,
and so he just had theseconnections, but he would do
these little collaborations withNike and Callaway because he
just had a name.
Um, but anyways, fast forwardto now and they kind of started
(20:15):
to develop more street wearapparel in the golf space, which
isn't you know.
There's a lot of people whohave followed that.
But Malbin really took offprobably last year, early 2024.
And it was when they signedthey might have signed in 2023,
(20:36):
a pro golfer named Jason Day, soNike dropped him.
He used to be a Nike athlete.
Nike drops him last year.
Malbin picks him up.
So why is this super important?
So Malbin, who is thisstreetwear company?
They dress him in some of themost outrageous, outrageous
outfits.
Outrageous for the golf world,for the golf world, for the golf
(20:59):
world.
So just heavy street.
So, uh, we'll have to likehopefully on you guys can find a
clip of this, but it's it.
Find the vest he wore, thisvest that says malbin golf
across it and it's just thislike out, not outrageous.
Outrageous for golf, yeah, andit ended up getting banned at
the masters and so that's whatput malbin like on the map.
(21:23):
So it went from a you're coolif you wear malbin golf to now
people like my dad and mygrandpa know who malbin golf is
because they're watchingeveryone's watching the masters
and they see, and there's allthis talk and outside of who's
winning and who's doing the best.
The very next storyline isJason Day and what he's wearing
(21:46):
and how dare he come on the golfcourse like this?
And if you go and you look atGoogle Trends over the last five
years and you type in JasonDay's name, and if you type in
Melbourne Golf's name, you see amassive spike in April of 2024.
Cause that's when the mastersare and pretty much every
tournament that Jason days in.
Melbourne is going up, yeah,melbourne search goes up.
(22:08):
Yep, peaks up.
You know peaks up and then kindof like the trend continues to
rise.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
The trend sustains compared to the previous years.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yep.
And then the reason why I'msaying this now, this story now,
and I promise I probably tookway too long to lay the
foundation of the discussionhere, but he just he just went
even deeper at Pebble Beach forthe Pro-Am Tour or tournament on
Sunday.
On Sunday, he wore a tracksuitlike a sweatsuit.
He wore a crew neck sweater andsweatpants.
(22:38):
How's he playing with malvin?
Um, you want to know the beautyof it?
I have no idea, because thestoryline isn't that like I
don't know, I don't know, if hewas top five he didn't win.
I know he didn't win.
Well, he's kind of past hisprime, right, but he's doing
better.
Like, he's kind of like, yeah,he's kind of like, well, that's
what I'm getting back into thegroove of it is he?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
is it helping him perform?
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I don't know it's a good question, so okay.
So why am I bringing all thisup?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
malibu golf has disrupted he's accused of
disrespecting pebble beach yeah,so.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
So that's what.
That's what's happening, right,and pebble beach is the most
iconic golf course in the world,and it's maybe outside of St
Andrews and day, and his outfitsare slowly becoming iconic so
you're having tons of people whoare coming out being like so
disrespectful to the game, thePJ needs to kick him out, he
can't wear this stuff anymore.
But then you're getting otherpeople who are like, why not
(23:33):
like, like, why do we have towear khakis and a polo?
Like what, what is that about?
And it's starting.
So the here's the point.
Guys, malbin said hey, you knowwhat and I don't know what
their revenue was, so you know,but let's say they were.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
They could have been crushing it.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
We don't know yeah, let's say they were between a 10
.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
They're definitely doing better now yeah, let's say
they're between a 10 and 20million dollar brand.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Okay, um, that's not including their outside
distributors in there, becausethey're huge in asia and all
that kind of stuff, but let'sjust say, in the us, from like a
dot-com perspective, they'reprobably I I'd say it's probably
safe to say they're insomewhere like that range.
They just went from the coolkids on the block like hey, I'm
old, like, oh, like you know,remember when you were in high
(24:19):
school, pre like apple music andtiktok, and if you found a song
or a band like you kind of heldtight to that and like if you
were like trying to impress agirl or something like that and
you were like driving, you'dlike you'd put that song on and
she'd be like I've never heardthis before, like yeah, oh, yeah
, yeah, I found that those arethe good days, yeah, and you
like tell her and now you hadthis like little you know, and
you you'd burn a mixtape.
(24:39):
Yeah that's kind of how Malvinwas pre this and now, like now,
it's starting a discussion ofpeople saying let's disrupt an
industry, so this is going backto disruption.
So how is a brand like MalvinGoing to go from, you know,
paying $100 to acquire?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
customer, because golf is seen as very stuffy,
very stuffy.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
In fact, it's been a huge reason why it hasn't paying
$100 to acquire a customer,because golf is seen as very
stuffy, very stuffy.
In fact, it's been a hugereason why it hasn't become a
bigger.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
It's known as a somewhat dying sport.
Well, not, I mean not to playdevil's advocate.
Covid picked it up a lot Forsure, so it did see a resurgence
.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
That's very true In COVID, because it was the only
thing you could do outdoors.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
It was yeah it was one of those things that you
could do outdoors, and so a lotof people picked up golf during
covid totally true, but takecovid out but nonetheless, yeah,
the golf.
Golf is a is a stuffy sport.
It has old rules, it has acertain kind of etiquette.
Yeah, you feel like you have,like there's rules everywhere,
and then a lot of people arereally uptight about it too,
(25:43):
like you don't just get to gogolf and have fun.
No, no, yeah, Some people'sexperience with their first time
golfing is like just someonegetting mad at them because they
didn't know some kind ofetiquette rule or they did.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, they're not going fast enough, or like
whatever the the story is.
The best way to equate this isdo you remember the first time
you flew, you went to theairport by yourself, without
your mom and dad, and howuncomfortable you were?
Were you like that?
Were you one of?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
those people.
I wasn't that young, so no,like the first time, I flew by
myself yeah no, I was with likeI was with a team.
I was with the rugby team okay,no, no, by yourself but by
myself it wasn't until I waslike 18 19, so I wasn't
uncomfortable at that point.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I mean I would.
I remember it was like myhoneymoon and I wasn't, like I
was nervous dude.
I'm like, oh, what gate do I goto?
Where do I park?
Like there's these questions.
I'm like, do I take my shoes?
You know like, I just felt soout of place, like am I gonna be
in the right spot?
Did I get here on time?
Am I gonna miss my?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
you know like part of that's just anxiety from your
dad, right?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
it could be very true , but that's I think that's how
the airport five hours, my dadis the type of guy who's like
your flight.
It was so, in fact, it wassuper funny.
He was just talking to my, mybrother-in-law.
We were at dinner and he waslike his flight was at.
His flight was at 7 am, so he'slike.
So he had to be at the airportlike 3 30.
Dad 330 no like a 7 am Flight toget up at midnight.
(27:08):
Yeah, 7 am Flight.
Don't check your bags, dude,leave a 3 anyway.
So, yeah, I could be a littlebit more anxious because of my
dad, but it's very similar.
So it's very similar to golf,right, like you were just so,
anyways, once again, I'm I verysimilar.
So it's very similar to golf,right, like you were just so.
Anyways, once again, I'm.
I think I've laid the stagefair enough and probably way too
long, right it's just ananxiety inducing the barrier.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
New experience that like you're already doing
something new and then you have,on top of trying, a new thing.
Yeah, you have the socialweight, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
The barrier around you.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So, like the barrier entry is not just the skill and
the money, yeah, it becomes likethis whole weight of
expectation and behavior thatmaybe you're not used to.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
It's not just go, it's not just buying a football
and going to the park andthrowing it around Right, right,
like there's a lot that goesinto it, it's expensive and
everything.
So, which is why you shouldalways start at the driving
range.
There you go.
So this is so.
Malvern golf decides hey, like,if we want to go big, if we
want to become bigger, like wehave to, we have to do something
huge.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Well, yeah, maybe they weren't thinking huge,
they're just thinking different.
Totally because because, listen, listen, because it started out
as different and good for awhile, yep, and then it became
oh, we have a chance to getsomeone, like jason day, yeah,
like let's bring in somebody andthis is the big swing, right,
but like, don't, don't get ittwisted.
(28:30):
Like malvin golf has been doingthe small things for a long
time they've been building abrand for the last seven years
they didn't just show up and getjason day totally so.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
They've been different and good for a long
time, doing it consistently 100,and then they were able to take
a big swing yeah, and, and notonly that, but they also got
somebody to buy into it, whichis also why I'm like, hey,
there's no way this guy iscausing this type of disruption
without ownership of the company.
That's the other reason why I'mthinking like he's got to have
ownership in it either ownershipor he just bought into the
(29:04):
vision because guess what?
I'm sure half of the tourdoesn't like what they wear for
sure, and I'm sure half of thetour is super jealous and the
other half is like and hates it.
Despicable, yeah, but that'sthe beauty, right he.
So malbin's drawn a lot,malbin's been doing what
Malbin's been doing.
But now they've got onto thespotlight level where they've
(29:25):
drawn a sand and pretty muchgiven the FU to the PGA culture
by saying like hey, the oldguard culture of golf, like
we're going to change it.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
So before, and technically they are abiding by
the rules.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yes, he had a.
He had a.
He had a polo underneathbecause so you could like.
The rules are like collaredshirt you could see the collar
under like you're wearing ahoodie right now.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
You could see the collar, like you have to have
your shirt tucked in yeah butyou're a sweater, doesn't have
there's nothing about belts yeahyou know so, so yeah, and, and
not to mention, it was likeHeather, heather gray, which is
also Cut.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
There's like something very.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Leisure more Like that much more relax more of a
leisure, like I'm seeing a bunchof memes of Rocky.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Like Rocky and his track.
Like Sweaty gray track suit.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Like, yeah, like Heather Gray is like what your
dad's wearing, like Cleaning theyard yeah, it's what I'm
wearing around the house.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, you know easily , right.
So, yeah, I love it Like youdraw a Gray is like what your
dad's wearing, like cleaning theyard.
Yeah, it's what I'm wearingaround the house.
Yeah, you know easily, right?
So, yeah, I love it Like youdraw a line in the sand and what
does it do?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Well, it creates advocates and enemies.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
And generally like for every one enemy, which is
what you're trying to do inmarketing.
Yes, like, if you want a goodmarketing.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
We talk about it, you know, on our podcast all the
time.
A good marketing strategy iscreating advocates and enemies.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
That's probably the title of the podcast creating
advocates and enemies.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
That's how you disrupt something, right?
I mean, if you really want totake a step back and look at the
greatest marketing campaigns,that's usually what it ends up
doing.
Right Like it draws some kindof line in the sand.
It creates an advocate in anenemy.
I mean, let's take, let's goback and take, like Nike, for
(31:12):
example.
Right like Nike, when itentered into the shoe space,
similar to what Malvin golf isdoing now, I'm all been like
state was, has been golf thewhole time.
Nike was not basketball, thewhole time Nike was running.
It was running yep Right, butNike wasn't cool, no.
They were good and different inthe running world and they were
cool in the running worldbecause of Steve Prefontaine and
(31:33):
some stuff that happened, butno basketball player wanted to
wear their shoes.
Yeah, they weren't like cool tobasketball was adidas converse
adidas and converse, right likedr j had the converse and larry
bird.
He was kind of the big namemagic johnson and so then you uh
have to take a big swing likeyou're not making any noise in
that world.
So how do you disrupt thatworld while you get someone like
(31:57):
mj and it's drawing a line inthe sand, right like you have
this new guy appearing with hisown shoe.
Yeah, that's a big statement.
So you like it's a big gamblelike his hand, you have this new
guy appearing with his own shoe.
That's a big statement, it's abig gamble.
There's a lot of risk in that.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
He was not the number one prospect, wasn't he like
the second or third potential?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
I think he was the number.
He wasn't the number one.
I don't think he was number.
He wasn't the number one.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
I don't think he was.
I think he was I could be wrong, I think he was, but there was
other people in the talk.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Well, because there was other companies that wanted
to give him a shoe, yeah, butthe other companies were going
to give him his own shoe, no, soAdidas was not giving him his
own shoe.
But anyways, the point being inthis story is Can I add one
thing to what you're saying,though?
It was risky and they made hisshoes in a way that was
different.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
That's the.
That's the thing I wanted toadd.
Right, so it wasn't that youjust had, like the, because he
got to design them, you had thebuy in.
But not only did he get todesign them, it was an illegal
shoe technically.
Remember that it had to bewhite.
And because it wasn't white,every game he played in nike had
to pay a fee.
(33:05):
That's right.
So nike, like that's.
That was the big difference.
So like yes, it was mj, andthey lucked out with finding the
right person to take the dealbecause he had swagger and he
was cool and he was so good,they lucked out, but they did.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I mean, it was clear that he was going to be totally
really good.
Was it clear that he was goingto be the greatest ever?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
no, no, but it was the fact that, like he was
wearing a shoe that at the time,now every kid Is wearing it and
every kid was like, hey, that'sCool and different then
everyone Would like like thevery beginning, mocked Him and
then, once he started, likedropping.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
The old guard mocked it totally yeah.
But like all the new guardright, like all the new kids,
all the youth, all the peopleentering into the market, they
looked at that as cool.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
So the question is now.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Here's the thing which is what jason day is
probably doing right now but theonly I mean now.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Can jason day do it?
Can he?
He can lead the charge, can hedo it all?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
no, well, the difference here is yes, like
Michael Jordan is Michael JordanLike, so let's not get it
twisted.
But what we're talking abouthere is like.
Hey, golf is just a differentsport.
In general, nobody thinks TigerWoods looked cool wearing his
polos.
Sure, like, no one thought thatwas a cool style.
(34:20):
Yeah, he wore the red and black.
Yeah, I wore the red and black.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, I mean, people thought that was like killer.
It's iconic.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, but you're talking to any 14 year old boy
Like they didn't think that wascool.
Yeah, no one did.
Yeah, does the story change nowwith Jason Day?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, I would wager there's.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Every high school golfer right now thinks Jason
Day looks cool.
Every high school golfer rightnow thinks Jason Day looks cool
Totally.
I'm not saying they all thinkhe's the best golfer Totally.
They want to style their gameafter him like Jordan, yeah.
But as far as just style goes,of course, every kid and college
athlete right now is looking atJason Day saying, oh yeah, that
looks way cooler than what Iwear.
(34:56):
I look like a freaking dork.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Or just like wait, I don't have to wear this we're in
khakis and a polo.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I look like a 40 year old man.
Yeah, like it doesn't look cool.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Totally no offense to everybody out there, that's
just the truth well, and thestyle, like we are in this, we
are in like a, I like khakis anda polo for certain events.
But yeah, and the last coupleyears have been a very
disruptive cool like it's been avery disruptive style change
right as like things have kindof started to falter back to
more nineties, looser, yeah, andyou notice that with.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
I don't know there's feel, just looking at the
pictures.
Yeah, again, I'm not deep inthis, but it looks like they're
using more vintage.
Yeah Well, vintage materialslike like it looks like they're
a lot more cotton based.
Yeah, materials like we're likeit looks like they're a lot
more cotton based.
Yeah, they don't have that likeheavy synthetic glossy no, it's
not performance.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
It doesn't look like dry fit yeah it's not like uh,
what's the, what's the?
Uh, what's the brand?
Uh, under armor, so that likeunder armory, kind of like that
nike dry fit, it's this right,it's the slackery kind of feel
to it, like that Nike dry fit.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
It's this.
Right, it's these slacker pants.
Yeah, it looks like the vibe.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think that that's 2025.
You know, if you go back andyou look at your P&L, there's a
really, really good chance that2023 compared to 2024, you may
have made more revenue, but madeless profits.
It's a really good chance.
We're switching in 2025, uh no,sorry.
(36:25):
2023 to 2024 yeah, um, and whichmeans that there's a really
good chance that you could be ina very similar boat, and so,
depending on how hurt you got in2024, there can be an
expectation that, if you're notgoing to make any big changes,
that the hurt is going to besimilar or more.
Yes, right, and so what we'retrying to do here, and the
(36:48):
reason why we're once again justlike beating this point in, is
you have to find a way todisrupt like this.
2025 needs to be the year ofdisruption.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
And the easiest way to disrupt is through ads.
That's my hot take, likeeveryone thinks it's by making
the next greatest product, whichyou should do.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I'm not saying don't go, make a great product.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Sure, that's long.
Yeah, you're not just going tospin out the next greatest thing
tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, we had a Haven Tents on.
That's kind of disrupted thehammock industry a little bit
For sure.
Right.
So it's a disruptive productmarket fit thing and that's why
they're.
I mean, I was really surprisedwhen we talked to him.
I was like, wow, these guys aredoing much better than I was
thinking, based on some of thenumbers he was putting out.
Some of those might not havebeen on the podcast things that
he just told us internally.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
No, yeah, they're doing great.
But there's still the thingabout disrupting an industry
through product is it takes awhile, right, like you have to
have people buy it, use it,share about it.
Yeah, that's a long cycle, likethat's not something that can
happen as quickly, but what youcan do overnight.
(38:01):
I'm not saying it worksovernight, but overnight you can
come up with a brand newposition.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
yep, right, your branding position or your
marketing position, which couldbe that line right that we'll
talk about hey, how do, how dowe stand out?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
maybe create controversy, or how do we just
simply sell it like?
How do we actually tell peoplewhy it's the best?
How do we tell people whyothers aren't?
How do we connect on anemotional level of, like what
people are feeling when theyshould be buying this?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
how do I create?
You can even think how do Icreate an enemy right?
Speaker 2 (38:40):
who is our enemy?
Sometimes that's the easiestone how well one of the you know
, I, when I was talking how manytimes do we do this with brands
and you're like they'll starttelling you things about their
product.
You're like well, why, whyaren't you saying that?
Yeah, like everything you justsaid in the last 30 seconds,
yeah we had this discussionyesterday, literally yesterday.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Yeah, it was an act.
This is an ad.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, why aren't you guys saying this as a brand?
Yeah well, you like you know,there's always an excuse.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
But it's like just well.
Well, that one with him waslike there was light bulb.
He's like yeah, I guess weshould.
I guess I can have her talkabout that.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
It's like oh, yeah, like this is.
This is why this is so muchbetter than every other.
Yeah, option, totally like howcan you guys haven't said that
before?
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Oh, I don't know yeah , so you can start with like
start with who's your enemy, andoftentimes who your enemy is
can help you lead to who yourbrand position and message is
for, and starting with an enemyis really a nice thing too,
because that's what we actuallyended up doing in a
inadvertently with thatconversation yesterday.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
But if, if you start with an enemy, it'll rile up
some emotion, and in the personyou're brainstorming with, for
sure and it can create somereally cool content.
That's where these passionateyeah statements, these absolute
statements, not the sure.
I just want to be nice witheverybody, oh but she or he can
wear it too.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
You know it's like no , I don't want that person
wearing.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
This is where you get passionate about why your
product is your product.
Yeah, and that's where thethat's where you're going to get
a lot of marketing gold from.
I agree like not the nice, notthe nice stuff, like the passion
, like people want to see thefire totally yeah, there's just.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I mean I think I think I saw a tweet the other
day that it was somebody wassaying it might have been sean
frank, the ridge wall guy, buthe was saying this person on
twitter was saying shopify,which is the e-commerce giant,
right, they like they're notwinning on creating more
(40:43):
features.
Sure, yeah, maybe a little bitof cart value goes up or share
wallet goes up, but I can'tremember.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
They have to have more stores.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
They win when more stores sign up, so they have to.
Now they also win.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
The thing that he left out is that they are also
winning because they take moneyout of the Shopify app store.
Sure, so there actually is ashare of wallet that he did not
address.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Totally yeah.
So meaning like once a Shopifyapp hits what is a million
dollars in sales, they take 10%of 10% or 15% of the app,
totally.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
So yeah, there is a share of wallet play from
shopify that isn't just newstores, but the point, that
doesn't mute the point yeah, thepoint is shopify is trying to
get new customers and so thebarrier of entry.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
As the barrier of entry as shopify gets more
customers, it actually ends uphurting you existing guns?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
yeah, well, that's just more competition.
Yeah, because more competition.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, I mean, we see it all the time, like when we
run reports for our clients andthey're looking like, oh my gosh
, we spent 20 more but only made10 more this year.
It's like, okay, let's go lookto see what happened on the
competition side.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
It's like your competition doubled and you had
no idea yeah, and you know, andit's easier to see in like a
google ads, sure, yeah, it'slike a look at all these new
people bidding on your brand,right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
You can see directly Right and and Temu is one of
them now too that we're seeinglike.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
But they did close the Temu loophole.
So what do you mean?
Part of the this tariff thingis they closed this loophole of
of shipping containers less than$800, so like that could
actually end up being a bigbenefit of getting rid of some
of these.
The competition wrecked Chinesecompetitors yeah, maybe I mean
(42:33):
again speculation and anybodytelling you exactly how it's
gonna unfold, like they nobodyreally knows.
Yeah, until we know, for.
But what we do know is thatthere's always going to be a
short-term pain with thepotential of long-term benefit,
like if inflation is coming down, etc.
With inventory, but nonetheless.
(42:53):
Yes, competitors, shopify wantsit easier for competitors to
come in.
Yes, so your competition isgoing to go up, not down.
Yeah, never going down.
So how do you?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
No, I shouldn't say that.
2025 could be the year wheresome of your biggest competitors
are what you think.
Remember, we had PortlandLeather Goods on.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Where they start crumbling.
Yeah, they start to crumble.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Because they're not listening to things like what
we're saying right now.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
We already know of a lot of examples from guests in
the industry, of people who arethat you would think are
crushing it, who are barelyalive.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah, we went through like a little like a exercise
of of people we had consultedfor clients and you know like,
or just people we'd talked tofrom back in the day that maybe
never had affiliation with.
We're like, oh, these guys werecrushing it and we were like
looking them up and it's like404 errors.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
And do you know why?
I think the big going back tothe cashflow and then we can end
this, but a lot of these peoplethat you think are crushing it
that end up failing fast.
Shortly thereafter it goes backto that cashflow.
Like you can grow too fast.
I know that sounds crazy, butsomething that we always advise
(44:07):
people is like you can grow fastand like even two X-ing in a
year.
That's huge, oh for sure, right, but there are consequences to
growing too fast.
Yeah, because sometimes youdon't know what happens at the
end of that road.
Like you can grow so fast thatyou have no more cash to take
(44:28):
care of maybe your operations oryour marketing or whatever it
might be, or maybe there's ablack swan event, so then you
don't have cash, yeah, in yourholster yeah, the black swan
event being covid being.
Covid or a tariff when?
Speaker 1 (44:43):
POs got delayed and then they all came in six months
later and everyone had this oldproduct.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
And then it took six months Wait.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
we need to be ordering new stuff.
So yeah, there's all sorts ofstuff that can happen, but
growing steady and steady canalso be very fast.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
But you got to just plan it out like plan out what
your cashflow looks like witheach PO that you're placing.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
If you're a company that relies on POs and just map
out like, hey, we're growing itthis much, like how much cash do
we need for each PO?
Right, and what happens ifsomething happens?
Right, like, what is theemergency reserve we need to
operate?
Yeah, yeah for sure I like itbut nonetheless disrupt Jason
(45:34):
day.
Go check out Jason day yeah,really curious.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
It'll be fun to do another like segment on.
I mean because we're gettinginto, like majors, the golf
major events right, so springsummer yeah.
So it'll be very interesting tosee what happens over the next
little bit because, like I said,just watch.
He is the story, he is the.
He's not the leading storyline,because the leading storyline
(46:00):
of golf is always going to bewho's winning?
Yeah, is it an underdog.
Is it the Bryson's of the R,always going to be who's winning
, who's winning?
Yeah, is it an underdog.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Is it the Brysons?
Who's the best?
Who's Jason?
The people who are like?
Speaker 1 (46:07):
at the top already.
Is it the Scheffler you know?
And then, like, the secondstory is always like what did
Jason Day wear and who did hepiss off?
Be very curious.
I suspect Masters April.
Suspect Masters April.
I suspect that if he just wentbig for the Pro-Am at Pebble and
(46:28):
he got his vest banned at theMasters last year, I expect
something that's going to flirtwith the lines at the Masters.
Personally, he's going to dosomething that's going to just
be.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
So he had to just change his outfit at the Masters
.
Yeah, they said he can't wearthat.
Is he a previous winner?
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah, I think he was a previous world number one.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
So he's got a lifetime invite back to the
Masters.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
I don't know if he's a previous Masters winner.
Okay, that's what.
I was wondering he's won amajor, I believe.
Okay, you'd have to look thatup.
I don't know if he's a previousmasters, but they wouldn't.
I don't think they would notlet him play the masters because
of that if he wasn't, are youlooking it up?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
yeah, well, I'm looking it up because I know
that I don't know a lot aboutthe masters, but I do know that
if you win it, if you win it,you got the and you have a green
jacket you have a lifetimeinvite back.
Yeah, like you do know that ifyou win it, if you win it, you
got the and you have a greenjacket.
You have a lifetime invite back.
Yeah, like you and you, becauseI know a lot of people play it.
They like aren't really yeahstill in it.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Yeah, then you get some people who don't play
anymore, because they, you knowlike what's his name, mike Weir.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Like he won it and I don't think he played last year
but he was playing, even thoughhe wasn't yeah, he wasn't even
on the tour.
I don't think right.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah, I think he's senior now, but he still had an
invite back.
Yeah, we're getting intosemantics here, nonetheless,
Okay, that's it.
Disruption.
What was the line you gave us?
What was the podcast title linethat you gave us?
Advocates and Enemies.
Remember Advocates and Enemies.
Start with the enemy and workyour way backwards.
(48:05):
All right, and we'll see youguys next week.
Sayonara Adios.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Unstoppable Marketer
podcast.
Please go rate and subscribethe podcast, whether it's good
or bad.
We want to hear from youbecause we always want to make
this podcast better.
If you want to get in touchwith me or give me any direct
(48:25):
feedback, please go follow meand get in touch with me.
I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and TikTok.
Thank you, and we will see younext week.
Yo, what's going on everybody?
Welcome to the UnstoppableMarketer podcast, with me, as
always, my co-host, markGoldhart.
Mark, how are you doing today?
Great?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I'm really good.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
We're on a roll.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
With podcasts, that is.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Yeah, we're getting back to some consistency.
Yeah, we.
The holidays really ruined usSlow is smooth and smooth is
fast as fast.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I think we've recorded every week here in
january.
We're now in february, so Ithink we're in a good spot great
, we're in a good spot, yeahback on track.
Got some guests lined up, nottoday, sorry no I had a good one
last last.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, I tested it out ?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Oh, did you the tent?
I have not, I was going to askyou.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I didn't spend a night in it.
I was going to ask you.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
He gave us one.
One was more of a light one,one was more of a heavy duty.
I have the heavy duty one.
I don't know why we got theones we got, but as somebody who
camps more, I was going tooffer you which one would you
rather have?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I think I mean we can discuss after, but I do have.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I think we should do it on the podcast.
So I do, I do already have likea heavy duty, heavy duty setup.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So you keep yours then so I wasn't worried about
it.
All right, like this is more ofan ancillary.
Yeah, nice, hey, grandpa wantsto be there, but yeah.
There's not a lot of room inthe trailer for him Got it Well,
but anyways, yeah, I set it up.
It was great.
Let's go, let the kids play init, that's cool.
(01:45):
I yeah, go test it up.
Just put it up on your balconyor something.
Yeah, I should.
We had a couple trees in thebackyard, we can put it up.
Just lay down see how it feels.
Was it nice?
It's very nice, sweet.
It is way better than a hammockas advertised.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
What about better than a tent?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well, for sure, better than a tent, because a
tent's always a tent.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, okay, for sure better than a tent's always a
tent.
Yeah, okay for sure, betterthan a tent.
We'll shout out for havenhammock.
A little shout out for haventents right there, that was fun.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
We'll cut this segment up and for an ad,
derrick and it's very quicklistener, so he's listening to
this right, yeah, he is, andit's very quick setup.
I got it set up in like fiveminutes really as a, as a first
timer, as a virgin yes, I didall right.
Well, there, there you perhapsmaybe seven minutes, but it felt
like five minutes okay,perceptions, reality like the,
(02:32):
the only thing that's like if heis.
I don't know how long it tooklike inflate sure the pad
doesn't count though.
I don't think that can?
Yeah, cuz that's not on youright.
Packing it away was really nicetoo.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I'll give it.
I'll give it a little setup.
It's been so warm here yeah,it's weird we went night skiing
last night and it was great itwas 50 degrees while you were
there, while we were there, nicesundance, amazing, I mean.
It was awesome, but it wasn'tat the same time Because the
(03:05):
snow Like one Sundance doesn'tget tons of snow Like compared
to the other resorts.
It still gets amazing snow butlike there were areas where like
it got kind of earthy In placesthat it shouldn't be earthy,
because like so many people aregoing, and it was crazy.
It got like 8 inches of snow Acouple days ago too, so it was
kind of a bummer, like it wasreally cold.
Sundance is just a little lowerelevation right lower elevation
(03:27):
and the sun hits it.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So it is, it is uh south facing on a lot, on a lot
of parts not the whole, not thewhole resort.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
There's a couple parts of the resort that are not
, but I'd say half the resort issouth facing and in fact, the
the, the um canyon south facing.
So as you're driving up, excuseme me, if you go up Big
Cottonwood, Little CottonwoodCanyon, which is to like some of
the best resorts in the worldcanyons, by the way, if you're
listening there's, you know,three feet of snow everywhere
(03:56):
right here.
It's just all dirt and rockbecause it's facing the sun, so
it all melts and then you kindof like loop around and then
it's all snowy okay, and theymake their own snow too, right,
yeah, for sure.
So it was nice, but it was hardfor my kids because when it gets
super slushy it like starts tocreate moguls.
It's almost like powder, youknow.
(04:16):
And so my kids, who are kind ofin their like learning stages,
like they struggled to make goodturns and well, yeah, it's just
it's like grabby, yeah, itslows you down so, but it's fun.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
It's when you're light.
You can't really push throughit as easy.
Yeah, yeah, that's fun.
Well, yeah, speaking of stickyspots, yeah tariffs oh, tariffs,
yeah, let's talk about thetariffs and disruption for many
advertisers and businesses rightnow.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, what are tariffs going to be doing?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
The real answer is nobody knows.
Yeah, but because of that, Ithink it's creating some
uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's how I would describe it.
So our advice right now justTLDR, we're not going to go like
super deep into it.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, just because there's so many different ways
you can look at the benefits oftariffs and the pros and cons.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Well, there's always an immediate con to a quote
tariff, especially if you'rebringing in your product from
China.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
It's a long-term solution, not a short-term.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, so the way this administration is approaching
tariffs is hey, we're going to,because a tariff is a tax, so
taxes are going to go up, right,right for the supply side of a
lot of businesses.
So the question is will taxesgo down for things like business
(05:54):
tax, income tax, right, willinflation go down?
And?
And the problem, though, islike tariffs are always
immediate.
What I'm suggesting on the, onthe back of this, of what this
administration is proposing, alot of this isn't exactly
immediate, unless there is likea hey, we're getting rid of
income tax, which they claimthey want to do.
(06:15):
I mean, I don't know how realor not real that is.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
But if you get rid of income tax and like, tariffs
aren't a big deal becausepurchasing behavior Genius Would
change pretty dramatically.
Totally so.
That's.
That's the game we're playingnow.
I'm under the impression thatwe're in a wait and see phase.
Like I, we're not reallyadvising people that they should
go and mass order from Chinaright now.
(06:40):
No right, Like, oh, go, orderthree years worth of inventory
because you might have to payextra in three months and that
might and that might not be.
We went through this in 2016.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, we know a lot of cases where that turned out
really bad for some companiesyeah, be super careful with that
because, like mark said, whentrump was in administration and
he increased the tariffs andtalked about that, we at the
time were working with a companywho was working with faux
leather goods and we tripledwhat we would order to save on
tariffs and we did technicallysave on tariffs, but it put us
(07:12):
in a really challengingsituation because we didn't know
how long faux leather wouldlast.
So it was just sitting onshelves for 12, 18 months
because we had just stockpiledstuff.
So it's a really risky.
So just be careful.
Based off of materials, basedoff of you, you could, you could
update a product, you could.
(07:33):
You know what I mean.
Like if you're selling abackpack that's a bestseller and
you order 10 X or five X, whichyou normally would, and then
you find like some outrageouslyawesome updates to that backpack
and now, all of a sudden, youhave 10 000 units of the less
quality, you know.
So there's.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
There's lots of things you need to be careful
with yeah, and, and most of thepeople who listen to this at
least, if you're in e-commerce Imean, most businesses are like
this, but especially e-commerceyou just you're really dependent
on, or the blood of yourbusiness is the cashflow.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Right, and you cannot be bleeding out too much, too
quick.
And so if you think, oh, I'mjust going to hurry and take out
a big loan I mean, interestrates aren't great.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I'm going to go take out this or make this like
upfront investment.
Now just do your due diligenceand what what your business is
like, because every po is cashgoing out the door.
So you're not.
It's hard, you know.
E-commerce is not this get richquick scheme.
Yeah, you're building realbusinesses and it's.
(08:39):
Yes, it's all on the internetand some people have this image
of like, oh, I'm just going tomake it rich because my business
is doing 10 million a year, butthere's a lot of businesses out
there that do really well andpeople are not making a lot of
money out of them.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, and not to mention, like your cost of
acquiring customers, at leastfrom a paid ads perspective.
It's gone up the last fouryears every year Like it's never
going down.
It's not going down this year.
Um, not yet.
Yeah, so, not yet.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
So if you, well, it has gone down since quarter four
, but it has not gone down yearover year typical trend.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, year over year is what we're saying.
So so just be careful, right,because if you flush out a lot
of your cash flow and anunexpected increase in your
marketing expenditures happens,you could be in a difficult
situation which we've seen thisright.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
So I think meta revenue grew 16 percent.
Had inventory only went upfour%.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I think it was.
Your numbers are almost.
Yeah, I think it was like 14%and 6% or something like that.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
14% and 6%.
But the point you're making isso we'll just call it 15% and 5%
.
Perfect yeah, more wholenumbers, so revenue outpaced
right the inventory.
So what that means is thatthere was more demand, so more
people buying into theplacements, than actual More
demand for ads than eyes to see,which is a problem.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
It can be a problem.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Let those with eyes willing to see see.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Exactly so, with those who are willing to see.
Exactly so.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
With those who are willing to pay will pay.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So, speaking of disruption, um and, and the
discussion we're having rightnow, right, with things getting
more and more challenging, it'sgoing to take.
I think, if you're ane-commerce business, listening
to this, 2025 just needs to beand, and there's a reason why
Mark and I we've I feel likewe've been kind of almost
beating a dead horse over thelight.
(10:48):
Is that the saying?
Beating a dead horse, right,where you're doing something
over and over again?
Yeah, messed up a lot, yeah mywife beat a dead horse beat a
dead horse, but we've beentalking about disruption,
difference change.
It's like you know, the lastprobably five episodes has been
let me not fully about that, butwe dive into that and there's,
(11:08):
there's like another tangent atleast I'd like to go down,
because 2025 is panning out tobe very similar, like you said,
like ad revenues up, adplacements or uh, ad um is
outpacing ad inventory inventorythat was the word I was looking
for.
Ad inventory is not as high,right, it still grew, just not
(11:31):
as high as revenue.
So if that's the case, it meansyour cost, your cost to acquire
customers.
If you don't changes andchanges could be a myriad of
things are going to naturally goup.
They're going up, yeah, anddepending on what happens in
your category, right.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Because that just means the supply-demand curve
right yeah For placing your adhas gone up.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
That's not also taking into consideration what
the buyer behavior is.
Totally, totally so.
We're not talking about thesupply demand curve for buying
products.
We're talking about the supplydemand for placing an ad in
front of people.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, yeah, totally like like there was.
What mark is saying, see, forexample, is like uh, what was
the year of the tumblr that justthe tumblr exploded?
It was like 2000 probably fouryears ago 20.
Yeah well, yeah, 2019.
You know, 2019 was when stanleylike emerged and they stanley
(12:31):
wasn't selling them fromstanleycom, stanley was selling
them from likea boutiquedistributors like they would
like do collaborations with themyeah, I don't remember yeah and
then it was probably 2020, 2021that stanley said we're not
doing this anymore with you.
Like we have something here,let's go full, full in on it.
And then you have the hydrojugs and everybody else.
(12:52):
So yeah, let's call it 2021where like tumblers, like,
really like, came out.
That's the buying behavior.
That, martin, like your adplacements could go, like your
ad costs from how much it'scosting to place the ads could
go up, but, like a buyingbehavior, could also go up and
could make your cost peracquisition actually much lower
(13:13):
because of demand.
So, um, but okay, so this iswhat I want to talk about.
So the golf, let's talk thegolf industry.
So, um, the golf industry, ifyou're listening to this, is a
very old, traditional, um,predictable industry.
(13:35):
When you're think, when youthink golf, give me a persona,
tiger woods, that's your persona, tiger woods, oh, a persona yes
, persona who yes, in your, inyour head, if you're okay, yeah
who is, who is the persona?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
it's a a persona is like you're a white, 30 to 50
year old white guy who's a whitecollar job.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Maybe has a little bit of a dad bod, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Has enough money to play, probably married, maybe
kids, maybe kids.
Drinks a little and wears khakipants, white shoes and a collar
shirt yeah, like the old guardof golfing, yeah, yeah and and
(14:28):
so in the golf world you havelike four.
I mean there's, there's,there's plenty of brands that
everybody knows, but there arereally four household names in
the golf world which I am not agolfer, but I'm sure if I named
I could name them all.
Yeah, you are not.
I am a golfer, you're not.
So name the four brands I'mthinking of.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Callaway Yep.
That's one Titleist Yep Nike.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Not really anymore, because Nike's kind of pulled
out of besides apparel like theyused to do.
But I think Nike is a safe onethat could be across it.
So I'm going to say fivebecause Nike should probably be
there.
Just because because they're,nike does everything, because
they're a brand.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, they're a brand .
Okay.
So the other one I see a lot atleast on just like a regular
people is a Travis Matthews orsomething okay.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Okay, that's interesting that you say that
one.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Like I see that on.
Yeah, at least people our age.
I always see the hats.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
You're missing like two really really big ones.
Ten times bigger than TravisMatthew Taylor, oh, taylor made
Taylor made Okay because we'regoing clubs Yep, does Taylor
made make apparel?
I we're going clubs Yep, doesTaylorMade make apparel?
I think they do now.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
And then Ping.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Ping was going to be the.
Yeah, I was going to say Ping.
Those are your.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And then you got, I mean there's, oh.
So I'm thinking, yeah, and youcan go Callaway too, sorry,
callaway, oh okay, sorry.
I said Callaway Titleist, okay,cool, awesome.
So now you could say, oh,there's, there's Cobra and
there's Mizuno, and yeah, yes,there's some.
I don't know any of thosebrands like those brands, like I
know on good authority, areactually not big, profitable
(16:10):
companies like a lot of peoplethink of, like Mizuno, as like
oh, yeah, they're everywhere,but it's like they're not that
big.
Okay, so you have, in thisworld there are tons of a
collect.
I call them like boutique golfbrands.
So travis matthews was one ofthose that broke out yes, they
broke out.
And they broke out because theyhad tons of money and they were
(16:33):
kind of the pioneer of gettingsomething different than a nike
polo yeah, they were apparelfocused.
Yes, and they were like one ofthe very, very first that were
like a little bit cooler, okay,okay.
So they, they, they were the,they were the leaders of the hey
.
You don't just have to have anike polo or an og polo or a
(16:56):
titleist.
You know, you know, you know alogo.
You know a title list logo orback in the day it was, uh, oh,
my gosh, what is it?
Uh, ashworth clothing.
You know some of these likeolder legacy kind of stuff, but
these boutique brands are havinga hard time, like they're.
They're getting to this, likeyou know, five to maybe 20
(17:19):
million dollar range in annualsales, but they're having a hard
time breaking into themainstream.
Your average joe golfer, likemy dad my dad's 60 years old,
he's, he's wearing khakis whenhe plays, he's got the polo on
that generally has like his worklogo on it.
You know, like that's my dadright and he's got the polo on
that generally has like his worklogo on it.
You know, like that's my dadright and he's playing with
(17:41):
tailor-made clubs and the onlyreason he has a jones golf bag
is because I got him a jonesgolf bag right, but beforehand
he had a titleist probably golfbag or something, maybe an og
yeah yeah, maybe an og.
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So, so, okay, what am I?
I've set the stage here.
What am I trying to get out?
So enrolls a company calledmalbin golf and malbin golf this
is a relatively new yeah, they.
Probably.
They started around 2016.
(19:30):
So they started right when welaunched asher.
Like.
We launched asher golf, whichis also like a boutique golf
apparel company, in 2017 and um,and they had launched it and
before it was like more of astore experience.
So like they had something offfairfax avenue in hollywood
where it was like a golfsimulator and the guy who owned
(19:53):
it was a creative director andhe would produce things for,
like celebrities, so like hecould get justin bie Bieber into
his golf studio and he wouldget dream and green in there,
and so he just had theseconnections, but he would do
these little collaborations withNike and Callaway because he
just had a name.
Um, but anyways, fast forwardto now and they kind of started
(20:15):
to develop more street wearapparel in the golf space, which
isn't you know.
There's a lot of people whohave followed that.
But Malbin really took offprobably last year, early 2024.
And it was when they signedthey might have signed in 2023,
(20:36):
a pro golfer named Jason Day, soNike dropped him.
He used to be a Nike athlete.
Nike drops him last year.
Malbin picks him up.
So why is this super important?
So Malbin, who is thisstreetwear company?
They dress him in some of themost outrageous, outrageous
outfits.
Outrageous for the golf world,for the golf world, for the golf
(20:59):
world.
So just heavy street.
So, uh, we'll have to likehopefully on you guys can find a
clip of this, but it's it.
Find the vest he wore, thisvest that says malbin golf
across it and it's just thislike out, not outrageous.
Outrageous for golf, yeah, andit ended up getting banned at
the masters and so that's whatput malbin like on the map.
(21:23):
So it went from a you're coolif you wear malbin golf to now
people like my dad and mygrandpa know who malbin golf is
because they're watchingeveryone's watching the masters
and they see, and there's allthis talk and outside of who's
winning and who's doing the best.
The very next storyline isJason Day and what he's wearing
(21:46):
and how dare he come on the golfcourse like this?
And if you go and you look atGoogle Trends over the last five
years and you type in JasonDay's name, and if you type in
Melbourne Golf's name, you see amassive spike in April of 2024.
Cause that's when the mastersare and pretty much every
tournament that Jason days in.
Melbourne is going up, yeah,melbourne search goes up.
(22:08):
Yep, peaks up.
You know peaks up and then kindof like the trend continues to
rise.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
The trend sustains compared to the previous years.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yep.
And then the reason why I'msaying this now, this story now,
and I promise I probably tookway too long to lay the
foundation of the discussionhere, but he just he just went
even deeper at Pebble Beach forthe Pro-Am Tour or tournament on
Sunday.
On Sunday, he wore a tracksuitlike a sweatsuit.
He wore a crew neck sweater andsweatpants.
(22:38):
How's he playing with malvin?
Um, you want to know the beautyof it?
I have no idea, because thestoryline isn't that like I
don't know, I don't know, if hewas top five he didn't win.
I know he didn't win.
Well, he's kind of past hisprime, right, but he's doing
better.
Like, he's kind of like, yeah,he's kind of like, well, that's
what I'm getting back into thegroove of it is he?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
is it helping him perform?
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I don't know it's a good question, so okay.
So why am I bringing all thisup?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
malibu golf has disrupted he's accused of
disrespecting pebble beach yeah,so.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
So that's what.
That's what's happening, right,and pebble beach is the most
iconic golf course in the world,and it's maybe outside of St
Andrews and day, and his outfitsare slowly becoming iconic so
you're having tons of people whoare coming out being like so
disrespectful to the game, thePJ needs to kick him out, he
can't wear this stuff anymore.
But then you're getting otherpeople who are like, why not
(23:33):
like, like, why do we have towear khakis and a polo?
Like what, what is that about?
And it's starting.
So the here's the point.
Guys, malbin said hey, you knowwhat and I don't know what
their revenue was, so you know,but let's say they were.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
They could have been crushing it.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
We don't know yeah, let's say they were between a 10
.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
They're definitely doing better now yeah, let's say
they're between a 10 and 20million dollar brand.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Okay, um, that's not including their outside
distributors in there, becausethey're huge in asia and all
that kind of stuff, but let'sjust say, in the us, from like a
dot-com perspective, they'reprobably I I'd say it's probably
safe to say they're insomewhere like that range.
They just went from the coolkids on the block like hey, I'm
old, like, oh, like you know,remember when you were in high
(24:19):
school, pre like apple music andtiktok, and if you found a song
or a band like you kind of heldtight to that and like if you
were like trying to impress agirl or something like that and
you were like driving, you'dlike you'd put that song on and
she'd be like I've never heardthis before, like yeah, oh, yeah
, yeah, I found that those arethe good days, yeah, and you
like tell her and now you hadthis like little you know, and
you you'd burn a mixtape.
(24:39):
Yeah that's kind of how Malvinwas pre this and now, like now,
it's starting a discussion ofpeople saying let's disrupt an
industry, so this is going backto disruption.
So how is a brand like MalvinGoing to go from, you know,
paying $100 to acquire?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
customer, because golf is seen as very stuffy,
very stuffy.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
In fact, it's been a huge reason why it hasn't paying
$100 to acquire a customer,because golf is seen as very
stuffy, very stuffy.
In fact, it's been a hugereason why it hasn't become a
bigger.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
It's known as a somewhat dying sport.
Well, not, I mean not to playdevil's advocate.
Covid picked it up a lot Forsure, so it did see a resurgence
.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
That's very true In COVID, because it was the only
thing you could do outdoors.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
It was yeah it was one of those things that you
could do outdoors, and so a lotof people picked up golf during
covid totally true, but takecovid out but nonetheless, yeah,
the golf.
Golf is a is a stuffy sport.
It has old rules, it has acertain kind of etiquette.
Yeah, you feel like you have,like there's rules everywhere,
and then a lot of people arereally uptight about it too,
(25:43):
like you don't just get to gogolf and have fun.
No, no, yeah, Some people'sexperience with their first time
golfing is like just someonegetting mad at them because they
didn't know some kind ofetiquette rule or they did.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, they're not going fast enough, or like
whatever the the story is.
The best way to equate this isdo you remember the first time
you flew, you went to theairport by yourself, without
your mom and dad, and howuncomfortable you were?
Were you like that?
Were you one of?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
those people.
I wasn't that young, so no,like the first time, I flew by
myself yeah no, I was with likeI was with a team.
I was with the rugby team okay,no, no, by yourself but by
myself it wasn't until I waslike 18 19, so I wasn't
uncomfortable at that point.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I mean I would.
I remember it was like myhoneymoon and I wasn't, like I
was nervous dude.
I'm like, oh, what gate do I goto?
Where do I park?
Like there's these questions.
I'm like, do I take my shoes?
You know like, I just felt soout of place, like am I gonna be
in the right spot?
Did I get here on time?
Am I gonna miss my?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
you know like part of that's just anxiety from your
dad, right?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
it could be very true , but that's I think that's how
the airport five hours, my dadis the type of guy who's like
your flight.
It was so, in fact, it wassuper funny.
He was just talking to my, mybrother-in-law.
We were at dinner and he waslike his flight was at.
His flight was at 7 am, so he'slike.
So he had to be at the airportlike 3 30.
Dad 330 no like a 7 am Flight toget up at midnight.
(27:08):
Yeah, 7 am Flight.
Don't check your bags, dude,leave a 3 anyway.
So, yeah, I could be a littlebit more anxious because of my
dad, but it's very similar.
So it's very similar to golf,right, like you were just so,
anyways, once again, I'm I verysimilar.
So it's very similar to golf,right, like you were just so.
Anyways, once again, I'm.
I think I've laid the stagefair enough and probably way too
long, right it's just ananxiety inducing the barrier.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
New experience that like you're already doing
something new and then you have,on top of trying, a new thing.
Yeah, you have the socialweight, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
The barrier around you.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So, like the barrier entry is not just the skill and
the money, yeah, it becomes likethis whole weight of
expectation and behavior thatmaybe you're not used to.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
It's not just go, it's not just buying a football
and going to the park andthrowing it around Right, right,
like there's a lot that goesinto it, it's expensive and
everything.
So, which is why you shouldalways start at the driving
range.
There you go.
So this is so.
Malvern golf decides hey, like,if we want to go big, if we
want to become bigger, like wehave to, we have to do something
huge.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Well, yeah, maybe they weren't thinking huge,
they're just thinking different.
Totally because because, listen, listen, because it started out
as different and good for awhile, yep, and then it became
oh, we have a chance to getsomeone, like jason day, yeah,
like let's bring in somebody andthis is the big swing, right,
but like, don't, don't get ittwisted.
(28:30):
Like malvin golf has been doingthe small things for a long
time they've been building abrand for the last seven years
they didn't just show up and getjason day totally so.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
They've been different and good for a long
time, doing it consistently 100,and then they were able to take
a big swing yeah, and, and notonly that, but they also got
somebody to buy into it, whichis also why I'm like, hey,
there's no way this guy iscausing this type of disruption
without ownership of the company.
That's the other reason why I'mthinking like he's got to have
ownership in it either ownershipor he just bought into the
(29:04):
vision because guess what?
I'm sure half of the tourdoesn't like what they wear for
sure, and I'm sure half of thetour is super jealous and the
other half is like and hates it.
Despicable, yeah, but that'sthe beauty, right he.
So malbin's drawn a lot,malbin's been doing what
Malbin's been doing.
But now they've got onto thespotlight level where they've
(29:25):
drawn a sand and pretty muchgiven the FU to the PGA culture
by saying like hey, the oldguard culture of golf, like
we're going to change it.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
So before, and technically they are abiding by
the rules.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yes, he had a.
He had a.
He had a polo underneathbecause so you could like.
The rules are like collaredshirt you could see the collar
under like you're wearing ahoodie right now.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
You could see the collar, like you have to have
your shirt tucked in yeah butyou're a sweater, doesn't have
there's nothing about belts yeahyou know so, so yeah, and, and
not to mention, it was likeHeather, heather gray, which is
also Cut.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
There's like something very.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Leisure more Like that much more relax more of a
leisure, like I'm seeing a bunchof memes of Rocky.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Like Rocky and his track.
Like Sweaty gray track suit.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Like, yeah, like Heather Gray is like what your
dad's wearing, like Cleaning theyard yeah, it's what I'm
wearing around the house.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, you know easily , right.
So, yeah, I love it Like youdraw a Gray is like what your
dad's wearing, like cleaning theyard.
Yeah, it's what I'm wearingaround the house.
Yeah, you know easily, right?
So, yeah, I love it Like youdraw a line in the sand and what
does it do?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Well, it creates advocates and enemies.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
And generally like for every one enemy, which is
what you're trying to do inmarketing.
Yes, like, if you want a goodmarketing.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
We talk about it, you know, on our podcast all the
time.
A good marketing strategy iscreating advocates and enemies.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
That's probably the title of the podcast creating
advocates and enemies.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
That's how you disrupt something, right?
I mean, if you really want totake a step back and look at the
greatest marketing campaigns,that's usually what it ends up
doing.
Right Like it draws some kindof line in the sand.
It creates an advocate in anenemy.
I mean, let's take, let's goback and take, like Nike, for
(31:12):
example.
Right like Nike, when itentered into the shoe space,
similar to what Malvin golf isdoing now, I'm all been like
state was, has been golf thewhole time.
Nike was not basketball, thewhole time Nike was running.
It was running yep Right, butNike wasn't cool, no.
They were good and different inthe running world and they were
cool in the running worldbecause of Steve Prefontaine and
(31:33):
some stuff that happened, butno basketball player wanted to
wear their shoes.
Yeah, they weren't like cool tobasketball was adidas converse
adidas and converse, right likedr j had the converse and larry
bird.
He was kind of the big namemagic johnson and so then you uh
have to take a big swing likeyou're not making any noise in
that world.
So how do you disrupt thatworld while you get someone like
(31:57):
mj and it's drawing a line inthe sand, right like you have
this new guy appearing with hisown shoe.
Yeah, that's a big statement.
So you like it's a big gamblelike his hand, you have this new
guy appearing with his own shoe.
That's a big statement, it's abig gamble.
There's a lot of risk in that.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
He was not the number one prospect, wasn't he like
the second or third potential?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
I think he was the number.
He wasn't the number one.
I don't think he was number.
He wasn't the number one.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
I don't think he was.
I think he was I could be wrong, I think he was, but there was
other people in the talk.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Well, because there was other companies that wanted
to give him a shoe, yeah, butthe other companies were going
to give him his own shoe, no, soAdidas was not giving him his
own shoe.
But anyways, the point being inthis story is Can I add one
thing to what you're saying,though?
It was risky and they made hisshoes in a way that was
different.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
That's the.
That's the thing I wanted toadd.
Right, so it wasn't that youjust had, like the, because he
got to design them, you had thebuy in.
But not only did he get todesign them, it was an illegal
shoe technically.
Remember that it had to bewhite.
And because it wasn't white,every game he played in nike had
to pay a fee.
(33:05):
That's right.
So nike, like that's.
That was the big difference.
So like yes, it was mj, andthey lucked out with finding the
right person to take the dealbecause he had swagger and he
was cool and he was so good,they lucked out, but they did.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I mean, it was clear that he was going to be totally
really good.
Was it clear that he was goingto be the greatest ever?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
no, no, but it was the fact that, like he was
wearing a shoe that at the time,now every kid Is wearing it and
every kid was like, hey, that'sCool and different then
everyone Would like like thevery beginning, mocked Him and
then, once he started, likedropping.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
The old guard mocked it totally yeah.
But like all the new guardright, like all the new kids,
all the youth, all the peopleentering into the market, they
looked at that as cool.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
So the question is now.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Here's the thing which is what jason day is
probably doing right now but theonly I mean now.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Can jason day do it?
Can he?
He can lead the charge, can hedo it all?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
no, well, the difference here is yes, like
Michael Jordan is Michael JordanLike, so let's not get it
twisted.
But what we're talking abouthere is like.
Hey, golf is just a differentsport.
In general, nobody thinks TigerWoods looked cool wearing his
polos.
Sure, like, no one thought thatwas a cool style.
(34:20):
Yeah, he wore the red and black.
Yeah, I wore the red and black.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, I mean, people thought that was like killer.
It's iconic.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, but you're talking to any 14 year old boy
Like they didn't think that wascool.
Yeah, no one did.
Yeah, does the story change nowwith Jason Day?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, I would wager there's.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Every high school golfer right now thinks Jason
Day looks cool.
Every high school golfer rightnow thinks Jason Day looks cool
Totally.
I'm not saying they all thinkhe's the best golfer Totally.
They want to style their gameafter him like Jordan, yeah.
But as far as just style goes,of course, every kid and college
athlete right now is looking atJason Day saying, oh yeah, that
looks way cooler than what Iwear.
(34:56):
I look like a freaking dork.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Or just like wait, I don't have to wear this we're in
khakis and a polo.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I look like a 40 year old man.
Yeah, like it doesn't look cool.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Totally no offense to everybody out there, that's
just the truth well, and thestyle, like we are in this, we
are in like a, I like khakis anda polo for certain events.
But yeah, and the last coupleyears have been a very
disruptive cool like it's been avery disruptive style change
right as like things have kindof started to falter back to
more nineties, looser, yeah, andyou notice that with.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
I don't know there's feel, just looking at the
pictures.
Yeah, again, I'm not deep inthis, but it looks like they're
using more vintage.
Yeah Well, vintage materialslike like it looks like they're
a lot more cotton based.
Yeah, materials like we're likeit looks like they're a lot
more cotton based.
Yeah, they don't have that likeheavy synthetic glossy no, it's
not performance.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
It doesn't look like dry fit yeah it's not like uh,
what's the, what's the?
Uh, what's the brand?
Uh, under armor, so that likeunder armory, kind of like that
nike dry fit, it's this right,it's the slackery kind of feel
to it, like that Nike dry fit.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
It's this.
Right, it's these slacker pants.
Yeah, it looks like the vibe.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think that that's 2025.
You know, if you go back andyou look at your P&L, there's a
really, really good chance that2023 compared to 2024, you may
have made more revenue, but madeless profits.
It's a really good chance.
We're switching in 2025, uh no,sorry.
(36:25):
2023 to 2024 yeah, um, and whichmeans that there's a really
good chance that you could be ina very similar boat, and so,
depending on how hurt you got in2024, there can be an
expectation that, if you're notgoing to make any big changes,
that the hurt is going to besimilar or more.
Yes, right, and so what we'retrying to do here, and the
(36:48):
reason why we're once again justlike beating this point in, is
you have to find a way todisrupt like this.
2025 needs to be the year ofdisruption.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
And the easiest way to disrupt is through ads.
That's my hot take, likeeveryone thinks it's by making
the next greatest product, whichyou should do.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I'm not saying don't go, make a great product.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Sure, that's long.
Yeah, you're not just going tospin out the next greatest thing
tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, we had a Haven Tents on.
That's kind of disrupted thehammock industry a little bit
For sure.
Right.
So it's a disruptive productmarket fit thing and that's why
they're.
I mean, I was really surprisedwhen we talked to him.
I was like, wow, these guys aredoing much better than I was
thinking, based on some of thenumbers he was putting out.
Some of those might not havebeen on the podcast things that
he just told us internally.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
No, yeah, they're doing great.
But there's still the thingabout disrupting an industry
through product is it takes awhile, right, like you have to
have people buy it, use it,share about it.
Yeah, that's a long cycle, likethat's not something that can
happen as quickly, but what youcan do overnight.
(38:01):
I'm not saying it worksovernight, but overnight you can
come up with a brand newposition.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
yep, right, your branding position or your
marketing position, which couldbe that line right that we'll
talk about hey, how do, how dowe stand out?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
maybe create controversy, or how do we just
simply sell it like?
How do we actually tell peoplewhy it's the best?
How do we tell people whyothers aren't?
How do we connect on anemotional level of, like what
people are feeling when theyshould be buying this?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
how do I create?
You can even think how do Icreate an enemy right?
Speaker 2 (38:40):
who is our enemy?
Sometimes that's the easiestone how well one of the you know
, I, when I was talking how manytimes do we do this with brands
and you're like they'll starttelling you things about their
product.
You're like well, why, whyaren't you saying that?
Yeah, like everything you justsaid in the last 30 seconds,
yeah we had this discussionyesterday, literally yesterday.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Yeah, it was an act.
This is an ad.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, why aren't you guys saying this as a brand?
Yeah well, you like you know,there's always an excuse.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
But it's like just well.
Well, that one with him waslike there was light bulb.
He's like yeah, I guess weshould.
I guess I can have her talkabout that.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
It's like oh, yeah, like this is.
This is why this is so muchbetter than every other.
Yeah, option, totally like howcan you guys haven't said that
before?
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Oh, I don't know yeah , so you can start with like
start with who's your enemy, andoftentimes who your enemy is
can help you lead to who yourbrand position and message is
for, and starting with an enemyis really a nice thing too,
because that's what we actuallyended up doing in a
inadvertently with thatconversation yesterday.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
But if, if you start with an enemy, it'll rile up
some emotion, and in the personyou're brainstorming with, for
sure and it can create somereally cool content.
That's where these passionateyeah statements, these absolute
statements, not the sure.
I just want to be nice witheverybody, oh but she or he can
wear it too.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
You know it's like no , I don't want that person
wearing.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
This is where you get passionate about why your
product is your product.
Yeah, and that's where thethat's where you're going to get
a lot of marketing gold from.
I agree like not the nice, notthe nice stuff, like the passion
, like people want to see thefire totally yeah, there's just.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I mean I think I think I saw a tweet the other
day that it was somebody wassaying it might have been sean
frank, the ridge wall guy, buthe was saying this person on
twitter was saying shopify,which is the e-commerce giant,
right, they like they're notwinning on creating more
(40:43):
features.
Sure, yeah, maybe a little bitof cart value goes up or share
wallet goes up, but I can'tremember.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
They have to have more stores.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
They win when more stores sign up, so they have to.
Now they also win.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
The thing that he left out is that they are also
winning because they take moneyout of the Shopify app store.
Sure, so there actually is ashare of wallet that he did not
address.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Totally yeah.
So meaning like once a Shopifyapp hits what is a million
dollars in sales, they take 10%of 10% or 15% of the app,
totally.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
So yeah, there is a share of wallet play from
shopify that isn't just newstores, but the point, that
doesn't mute the point yeah, thepoint is shopify is trying to
get new customers and so thebarrier of entry.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
As the barrier of entry as shopify gets more
customers, it actually ends uphurting you existing guns?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
yeah, well, that's just more competition.
Yeah, because more competition.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, I mean, we see it all the time, like when we
run reports for our clients andthey're looking like, oh my gosh
, we spent 20 more but only made10 more this year.
It's like, okay, let's go lookto see what happened on the
competition side.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
It's like your competition doubled and you had
no idea yeah, and you know, andit's easier to see in like a
google ads, sure, yeah, it'slike a look at all these new
people bidding on your brand,right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
You can see directly Right and and Temu is one of
them now too that we're seeinglike.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
But they did close the Temu loophole.
So what do you mean?
Part of the this tariff thingis they closed this loophole of
of shipping containers less than$800, so like that could
actually end up being a bigbenefit of getting rid of some
of these.
The competition wrecked Chinesecompetitors yeah, maybe I mean
(42:33):
again speculation and anybodytelling you exactly how it's
gonna unfold, like they nobodyreally knows.
Yeah, until we know, for.
But what we do know is thatthere's always going to be a
short-term pain with thepotential of long-term benefit,
like if inflation is coming down, etc.
With inventory, but nonetheless.
(42:53):
Yes, competitors, shopify wantsit easier for competitors to
come in.
Yes, so your competition isgoing to go up, not down.
Yeah, never going down.
So how do you?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
No, I shouldn't say that.
2025 could be the year wheresome of your biggest competitors
are what you think.
Remember, we had PortlandLeather Goods on.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Where they start crumbling.
Yeah, they start to crumble.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Because they're not listening to things like what
we're saying right now.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
We already know of a lot of examples from guests in
the industry, of people who arethat you would think are
crushing it, who are barelyalive.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah, we went through like a little like a exercise
of of people we had consultedfor clients and you know like,
or just people we'd talked tofrom back in the day that maybe
never had affiliation with.
We're like, oh, these guys werecrushing it and we were like
looking them up and it's like404 errors.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
And do you know why?
I think the big going back tothe cashflow and then we can end
this, but a lot of these peoplethat you think are crushing it
that end up failing fast.
Shortly thereafter it goes backto that cashflow.
Like you can grow too fast.
I know that sounds crazy, butsomething that we always advise
(44:07):
people is like you can grow fastand like even two X-ing in a
year.
That's huge, oh for sure, right, but there are consequences to
growing too fast.
Yeah, because sometimes youdon't know what happens at the
end of that road.
Like you can grow so fast thatyou have no more cash to take
(44:28):
care of maybe your operations oryour marketing or whatever it
might be, or maybe there's ablack swan event, so then you
don't have cash, yeah, in yourholster yeah, the black swan
event being covid being.
Covid or a tariff when?
Speaker 1 (44:43):
POs got delayed and then they all came in six months
later and everyone had this oldproduct.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
And then it took six months Wait.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
we need to be ordering new stuff.
So yeah, there's all sorts ofstuff that can happen, but
growing steady and steady canalso be very fast.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
But you got to just plan it out like plan out what
your cashflow looks like witheach PO that you're placing.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
If you're a company that relies on POs and just map
out like, hey, we're growing itthis much, like how much cash do
we need for each PO?
Right, and what happens ifsomething happens?
Right, like, what is theemergency reserve we need to
operate?
Yeah, yeah for sure I like itbut nonetheless disrupt Jason
(45:34):
day.
Go check out Jason day yeah,really curious.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
It'll be fun to do another like segment on.
I mean because we're gettinginto, like majors, the golf
major events right, so springsummer yeah.
So it'll be very interesting tosee what happens over the next
little bit because, like I said,just watch.
He is the story, he is the.
He's not the leading storyline,because the leading storyline
(46:00):
of golf is always going to bewho's winning?
Yeah, is it an underdog.
Is it the Bryson's of the R,always going to be who's winning
, who's winning?
Yeah, is it an underdog.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Is it the Brysons?
Who's the best?
Who's Jason?
The people who are like?
Speaker 1 (46:07):
at the top already.
Is it the Scheffler you know?
And then, like, the secondstory is always like what did
Jason Day wear and who did hepiss off?
Be very curious.
I suspect Masters April.
Suspect Masters April.
I suspect that if he just wentbig for the Pro-Am at Pebble and
(46:28):
he got his vest banned at theMasters last year, I expect
something that's going to flirtwith the lines at the Masters.
Personally, he's going to dosomething that's going to just
be.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
So he had to just change his outfit at the Masters
.
Yeah, they said he can't wearthat.
Is he a previous winner?
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah, I think he was a previous world number one.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
So he's got a lifetime invite back to the
Masters.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
I don't know if he's a previous Masters winner.
Okay, that's what.
I was wondering he's won amajor, I believe.
Okay, you'd have to look thatup.
I don't know if he's a previousmasters, but they wouldn't.
I don't think they would notlet him play the masters because
of that if he wasn't, are youlooking it up?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
yeah, well, I'm looking it up because I know
that I don't know a lot aboutthe masters, but I do know that
if you win it, if you win it,you got the and you have a green
jacket you have a lifetimeinvite back.
Yeah, like you do know that ifyou win it, if you win it, you
got the and you have a greenjacket.
You have a lifetime invite back.
Yeah, like you and you, becauseI know a lot of people play it.
They like aren't really yeahstill in it.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Yeah, then you get some people who don't play
anymore, because they, you knowlike what's his name, mike Weir.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Like he won it and I don't think he played last year
but he was playing, even thoughhe wasn't yeah, he wasn't even
on the tour.
I don't think right.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah, I think he's senior now, but he still had an
invite back.
Yeah, we're getting intosemantics here, nonetheless,
Okay, that's it.
Disruption.
What was the line you gave us?
What was the podcast title linethat you gave us?
Advocates and Enemies.
Remember Advocates and Enemies.
Start with the enemy and workyour way backwards.
(48:05):
All right, and we'll see youguys next week.
Sayonara Adios.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Unstoppable Marketer
podcast.
Please go rate and subscribethe podcast, whether it's good
or bad.
We want to hear from youbecause we always want to make
this podcast better.
If you want to get in touchwith me or give me any direct
(48:25):
feedback, please go follow meand get in touch with me.
I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and TikTok.
Thank you, and we will see younext week.
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