May 27, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of the Unstoppable Marketer podcast, hosts Trevor Crump and Mark Goldhart discuss the concept of brand and its relationship to trust. They explore the effectiveness of "ugly ads" in digital marketing and challenge traditional notions of brand consistency. The hosts emphasize the importance of getting eyeballs on your brand and adapting marketing strategies to overcome consumers' aversion to being sold to.
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
A brand is the trust you've built.
Yeah, it's just trust.
Yeah, so does the experiencebuild the trust or does it
deteriorate trust?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Yo, what's going on everybody?
Welcome to the UnstoppableMarketer Podcast.
It is Tuesday morning and I'vegot my wonderful co-host here,
mark Goldheart.
How are you, mark Goldhart?
What up Doing?
Good Another day, anotherpodcast, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah, I hope everyone had a happy Mother's Day.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, if you're listening I mean listen if
they're listening to that.
Mother's Day was long.
I mean that was like two, threeweeks ago probably, yeah, but
for all you mothers out there,you are appreciated yeah we love
every one of you and all youfathers out there and soon to be
moms well, I mean out there.
I hope you treated your, yourwives and your moms wonderfully,
(00:59):
wonderfully but um, yeah, youhad a good weekend.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Then I did Great weekend, I went out to the geode
beds.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, you were talking about that on the last
podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
That you were going to do that.
We went and we found them, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
We found the geodes.
Found the geodes, got sometoads.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Horny toads.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Didn't get the odes, but you got the toads.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
We got the odes and the toads.
You did get the odes and thetoads.
Yeah, we got some geodes, nice,and some horny toads Caught,
like two or three of them.
So that was fun.
Horny toads are not toads, justso everyone knows.
They are lizards.
Oh, really, some people thinkthat they are.
(01:41):
They're not toads.
They're just called horny toadsbecause they kind of have
flatter bellies, they kind oflook it, but they're cool,
looking Interesting, and they'rereally easy to catch at night
when they get a little slow, alittle cooler, a little slow,
yeah, they're just a littlelethargic.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I have a funny story I'm stepping away from horny
toads but I'm keying in on theword horny.
Okay, I don't know where thisis going.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I have a good story about the word horny.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
So we were taking care of our neighbor's dog, oh
and while they were out of townfor their son's wedding, which
is down south in St George.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
And this story has something to do with horny.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yes, just stay with me, so every day.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
You've said it's about horny and there's a dog
involved, and now I'm not very.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Well, I am.
I'm about to introduce otherelements to this.
So the other day, so my kidsevery day are going in and out
of their house.
They wake up, they run over,they let the dog out because the
dog stays there.
The dog's not staying at ourhouse, the dog just stays at the
next door neighbor's house.
They have a dog you know, sothey let him out and then we
bring, you know, they'll bringhim over to our house, you know,
for a few hours.
Then we take him back andanyways, they're doing that all
(02:54):
day.
And then, and then my daughter,my oldest daughter, she comes
in and she's 12 and she goes um,I think that dallin and his
wife that's the couple that justgot married he's like I think
that they're back and my wife islike, oh yeah, they did say
like the mom did say that theymight be coming back a day early
(03:15):
to go hop on their flight fortheir honeymoon.
And we were gonna say a daylater.
And she's like, yeah, likethere was just a new car in the
parking or in the garage.
That wasn't there.
And it said honk, if you'rehorny, it was just so weird.
That's what my daughter said.
She just said it like sonaturally, and I was in, I was
(03:36):
in the other room.
The car, yeah, the car, youknow, like when people get
married it says just married andvenmo me and yeah, no, I
understand.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, okay, it's.
I'm still weirded out on thewindow it's thoroughly weirded
out, but okay on the window itsays honk if you're horny and my
I just.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I was in the other room and I hear my daughter
talking about the word horny andasking my wife what horny meant
and that was that was it.
My wife just deflected, wedidn't, we didn't discuss oh we
just deflected, but I just'tdiscuss.
Oh, we just deflected, but Ijust thought it was funny.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Just my daughter just tossing weird.
That is funny, but a prettyanticlimactic story.
Yeah, After I said it I feltthat no, that pun was intended,
just so everyone knows.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Nice, that was good, yeah, but yeah, there's my
anticlimactic horny story foryou.
Well, anyways, horny story foryou, well, anyways, well,
anyways.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
In other news geodes, just so you know.
Oh, back to geodes.
Yeah, you can sell thosesuckers for 500 bucks to a
thousand bucks each, yeah, so mykids wanna, they wanna make a
full business venture out of it,start a little business.
Yeah, they wanna go out, theywanna go to the best spots, they
wanna find some geodes.
That our neighbor has a rockcutter.
(04:46):
Oh, yeah, that's it's a goodtime to do that.
You know there's a lot of girlsinto crystals right now and
stuff.
So, yeah, tie it to astrology.
Yeah, like some crystal-y magic, some like earthiness.
Yeah, I like it Some wizardry,we'll see.
Yeah, and you guys are in, likethe Salt Lake area, which seems
(05:06):
to be that, and the kids yearnfor the mines, the children
yearn for the mines.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
They want to go dig, find treasures In other news
China and US came to some goodagreements Over the weekend,
sort of.
Came to some good agreementsover the weekend, sort of.
But yeah, 90 days 90 days man145% tariffs down to 30, which
(05:36):
is awesome.
Which is more like what it wasback in 2018, 2019, right it's?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
doable.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I think it was 20%.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
From the people we've talked to.
That's very good.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, what's really funny is?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Very manageable.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
If at the beginning you would have said it's 30%,
everyone would have been pissedoh my gosh, my costs are going
up 30%.
But now, when you go from $145down to $30, I think it was a
good marketing tactic, Actually.
Now everybody's relieved oh,only 30%.
That's the vibe we're gettingas we're talking to other people
.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, the hardest thing about the Trump
administration is you just don'tknow until you know there's a
level of uncertainty that kindof scares people, sure, sure.
Certainty, that kind of scarespeople, sure, sure.
Now I mean I'm a fan of certainmoves of any administration, um
, but in particular this one.
Like I think there needs to bea rebalancing with china, like I
(06:37):
think we're a little toodependent on china, especially
in more and less so with likee-commerce, right, more so it's
just like pharmaceuticals andpharmaceuticals and then, like
the uh, lithium yeah, lithium,ion stuff, like some rare earth
metals stuff metal stuff is istough but I mean, once we start
mining asteroids it won't matter.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
But that's maybe 50 years away or sooner, depending
on how involved elon's independs on how, like futurist,
you want me to go.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, but anyways, so that's good news.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
That's good news for the next 90 days.
That started, was it?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
on Saturday or Sunday .
It was announced Saturday, butlook, the deal is, if you don't
know this, china was facing likelarge unemployment numbers and
it's mostly affecting the youthand I think they were nervous.
(07:29):
Yeah, so good moves.
All now like whether you wantto say who won or lost.
I mean, I know that US importor US tariffs going to China are
10% yeah, they were like oneChinese 30% coming here.
So I mean, they're still.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
It seems like everyone's won.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I don't know if you'd call it winning, but maybe
better.
We'll see how it plays out.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So that's great.
You know, obviously it's notgoing to make certain things
cheaper, but yeah, inflation'sdown too, so let's see what
happens over the next Stockmarket's looking good, so let's
see what happens over the nextmarkets looking good, so we'll
see what happens it could itcould be a great buy like if
you're an e-commerce business.
This is the time where nowthings start to pick up,
consumers are a little happierright, a little less scared.
(08:15):
There's a really good chancethat well, how long is this when
?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
when does this episode drop?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
in two weeks yeah, yeah, probably two weeks from
now well, which would?
Be the.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Uh, it's the 13th day as we're talking okay, cool,
two weeks from now you'realready late.
Yeah, because summer is not it?
That's true.
Yeah, that's very true.
You got about a month and ahalf, two months, so especially.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
That's a good topic, that, and maybe this, this
podcast episode, shouldtransition slightly to that.
I still want to talk about whatwe discussed.
Discussed, but that is a reallygood thing to bring up is
especially what Mark is sayingis businesses just tend to slow
down a little bit in the summer.
Now don't come at me, becausethere's obviously some
businesses that do great.
Right, we've got a client rightnow who sells like summer
(09:04):
clothes collections that arelike very experiential and and
they crush it in the summer, youknow, but if you are a kids
clothing brand that sellsprimarily to moms, summers are
going to be a little more roughfor you why?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
well, listen, it doesn't matter who you are.
Summer's generally more roughunless you have a niche that is
very seasonal for the summer andeven that's going to lean early
summer.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, yeah.
You just have people who are onvacation.
You have people whose kids arein the house.
So instead of moms whogenerally make what?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
80, 90 percent of the purchasing power in a home,
it's well it actually comes backto just let's just back it up,
right?
If your business relies onsocial media to sell, your
viewership goes down.
Yep, in the summer, yeah,people are busier, people are
doing things, they're outside.
They're not looking at theirphones quite as much in the same
(10:03):
way, um, so that's that'sreally all it boils down to.
It's just a supply demandequation on the less demand
placement side of advertisement.
So there's less demand from theconsumer standpoint of looking
at their phones and scrollingsocial media.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah for sure yeah, my, my content always takes a
hit in the summer too, like soit's just so, yeah, that's what
it is.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
It's not what it is.
You know, people aren't buyinganything.
It's just like, how do youreach them?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
yeah, it's like clockwork once school is back
out, like once school's out, soprobably a week from now because
, my kids get out, you know, notthis friday, but the next, you
know, and so my content willstart to do this.
Right now it's doing this.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It'll probably start to plateau and do this so unless
I'm just so creative yeah, likeI mean, look, you can still
have success.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
We're not saying that no one ever has it it's just
generally.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Cpms go a little down in the summer, because it's
true because the demand is lessbecause some people stop
advertising as much, like it'sjust seasonal, like, yeah, it's
just a seasonal equation, butnonetheless, if you're, uh, yeah
, two weeks from now, hopefullyyou have tried to take advantage
yeah, great time to do some ofthe summer you know
(11:21):
collaborative stuff to do somegood sales.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
right, you're probably you in the midst of
Memorial Day sale when this isgoing off, you know, which is a
great opportunity for a lot ofpeople Speaking of content and
content doing well, and this isgoing to be old news, but
there's a really good principlebehind it and I think it's an
important one.
So have you seen what's goingon with Yellowstone national
(11:47):
parks tiktok account?
You heard about this at all?
no, I mean I'm going toyellowstone in july okay, but
but do you follow them on ontiktok?
It's mostly tiktok, it's oninstagram no, no, I don't so
over over the last little bit Tobe honest I just don't really
(12:11):
get on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
A little too much of a digital opioid for me.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
They have gone completely unhinged.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Oh, cool, like something you would never
imagine, like a Doritos accountor a Taco Bell.
Who was it?
Was it Doritos, a Taco Bell?
Who was it?
Was it Doritos or Taco Bell?
Nutter, butter, remember.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Nutter Butter went like wild.
Yeah, this is different.
Like these guys are droppinglike thirst traps as the hook.
So this like, for example, thisguy right here, okay, and then
it like will go to like abeautiful view and it's always
(12:52):
like dirty-ish lyric music, butit's going berserk.
So their Google trend if youtype in Yellowstone National
Park, and Google Trendsskyrocketing right now,
absolutely skyrocketing.
If you look, if you type inYellowstone National Park,
everyone is creating contentabout how nuts this is.
So, anyway, this guy right here,this guy right here, he is an
(13:17):
adult content creator.
So the reason how I found thisout, by the way, is this guy
just, it creates only fanscontent for women.
Okay, okay, and he is, uh, soare they stitching it?
So they're stitching it.
Yep, so they're stitching hisstuff which is public you can do
that kind of stuff, right andso they're stitching all these
(13:39):
like hot content creators andthat are like you know, it's not
explicit, but somewhat okay.
And this guy it's actually asuper funny story he posted this
video Like I had no idea whatwas going on.
He's like I've been like on afishing trip for the last two
weeks with no cell service and Icame back to like my only fans
(14:02):
account.
It's like skyrocketing, likeI've gotten more business
because of what's happening,like these guys are posting all
my videos and it's all thesewomen are finding out about it,
okay, and so he's blowing up andhe had no idea and he's like
super excited about it.
But anyways, yellowstone, thereason why I'm bringing this up
is if you look at national parksnow listen, I'm not saying this
(14:25):
is a good idea.
Okay, I'm like, but TikTokhasn't had a national park
trending.
Since I've been on, I've neverseen it.
Okay, and the thing aboutnational parks is everybody's
doing the same thing.
Let's post a beautiful pictureof this canyon, this river, this
(14:47):
lake, these bison, these bears,and those are cool, but to the
naked eye, I wouldn't know ifthat's glacier national.
I wouldn't know if that's.
You know, zions, I wouldn'tknow if that's.
No, no, us here in utah, weknow the difference, just
because we're so close to it allyeah, you're saying all these
(15:09):
things and I'm like I, yeah, youcan tell the difference.
Yeah, but I would.
I would imagine most peoplewouldn't.
Yeah, maybe, okay, yeah, Iimagine most people if they're
looking at something it'd belike oh is that now grace
Glacier national.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Is on.
Test me if I know what nationalpark it is so it's.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
It's just an interesting way that they've
stood out.
So that's that's gonna be.
The thing I'm super curiousabout is I'm hoping somebody
will do some sort of study to belike like I hopped on airbnb to
see if I could like was it hardfor me to book a, an airbnb in
yellowstone, you know?
Just to see if it was likegetting booked, because that's
what you don't know is like.
Is this translating to visits?
Speaker 1 (15:46):
um, I, don't know the answer.
Absolutely not, probably not,but I could almost.
I can almost guarantee it's nottranslating to anything for
them.
Maybe some merch sales.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Maybe, but nonetheless they're getting
people watching them and alleyes are on Yellowstone National
Park right now.
And now what's happening isother national parks are like
jumping in on the trend.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, that's funny, interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I mean there might be a little.
Maybe they're feeling desperatebecause I know I mean Bookings
might be down.
I know like US tourism is downa little bit this year, so maybe
bookings for national parks bedown.
I know like us tourism's down alittle bit this year, um, so
maybe bookings for nationalparks are down and they're
trying to get more traction.
I'd be interested to see ifit's actually translating.
It's just people who go tonational parks are people that
(16:40):
go to national parks, you know,sure, and then you have like the
one offers yeah, like I'msomebody who goes to national
parks, right, and I'm somebodywho goes to national parks right
, and I'm somebody who goes onceevery five to eight years.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, now that my son's at a different age, we're
gonna start doing it yearly likea guy's a guy's thing.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
But yeah, we're more of the people who are like every
year, we're going, like I'vebeen to all the national parks
within the five hour, six hourdrive.
In my lifetime, sometimes morethan once yeah, like we try to
make, like we went to redwoods,for example that's a state and
national park but like we wentto redwoods in california and
(17:25):
like we, we like to do that kindof stuff.
But that's why I'm curious.
Like it's, it goes back to thequestion of like who your actual
audience is.
Like are you converting a lot?
Like how many people are youconverting Views?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
doesn't always mean conversions.
And attention isn't like we'rethinking conversions, by the way
.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Uh, for them as visits or merch sales, I don't
know, maybe merch sales.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I didn't look to see see if there's a website that's
selling merch.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
But I mean, if the lesson like we don't want to
take that story too far, itdoesn't need to go, yeah and
there's a good chance.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
By the time you listen to this, it's not even
news anymore.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I'm like a little bit of an altruist when it comes to
you.
Can't just like love nationalparks cause they're freaking
incredible.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You know what, but maybe it's getting eyes on
people who are like I did notknow that it was that beautiful.
I've heard about this, but Idid not know that it looked like
that that's true.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, we got to go you know maybe.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
So when in doubt there's trap, when in doubt,
thirst trap.
What that's the lesson here?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
sex over so you're struggling with sales and
attention.
Get some, uh, only fan creators.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, I guess so stitch an only fan creator, all
right.
Well, let's, let's jump intotopic.
Today we we've had this what isbrand?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, we've had this.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
This has been a conversation we've had with
clients of ours.
Uh, it's, it's been a I mean,it's always a topic with
perspective clients.
Uh, we had a group of people inthe office the other day where
we were doing like a little likelunch get together where we
just chatted about brands and itwas brought up in there.
But the question is um, okay,what is the question?
(19:11):
Well, the question is yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
how do we want to pose this?
What is on-brand enough?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Or maybe the better question is do my ads need to be
on-brand?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Is it on-brand enough brand?
If the answer is yes, how muchon brand does it need to be?
So?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
let's start the conversation with why is there
this idea that there needs to bethis super cohesive styling
across experiences?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I mean, I think that that has always been I can go
back to, like my marketingclasses when I was back in like
2009, you know, and that wassomething that was like taught
in our brain is that every touchpoint needed to be cohesive,
like that's a very, that's avery and I'm not saying it's
outdated necessarily, so don'tget me wrong when I'm saying
(20:17):
that that's outdated, but thatthat was a principle taught to
me.
You know what we're?
We're almost 20 years later.
Yeah, you know the last 15years, that was such an
ingrained thing.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, I think it is outdated actually.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, I mean, I believe it is personally, but I
think that Well you have toremember, it comes from the
Google world Right.
Explain what you mean by that.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Well, you know, google advertising was the first
to kick this whole thing offand the search thing was like,
hey, you have to match, like thekeywords with the landing page
and you have to make sure, likethe experience is cohesive, like
, hey, if they're searching fortoothpaste, mint has to be a
mint toothpaste page and it hasto match up.
(21:09):
And then it translated over tomore of the display side of
matching it, like, oh, this iswhat your ad looks like.
It needs to make sure it matchesover here, but I think where
things have gotten lost is youjust have to make sure that
people don't think they're inthe wrong place.
Sure, so it's more of asemantic game than it is a true
(21:32):
styling game.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
I think it's more of a hey I'm expecting to go to.
What kind of experience.
It doesn't mean everything hasto match up perfectly from the
ad to the landing page.
It's simply I'm clicking on anad that is telling me about
(21:54):
sunglasses sure am I gonna gosomewhere that tells me about
sunglasses?
But I'm I'm going to an articleabout sunglasses, like that
might be strange, not a cohesive.
It might work right but it mightbe like what's it?
Why am I on an article?
It might take you to a productpage and that's what they're
(22:14):
expecting.
So it's really more of.
Are you aligning the, thelanding experience, with the
expectation right of the user,not so much your expectation as
a brand?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
yeah, I think, I think, I mean, I think that
there's a, I think there's maybea much deeper discussion and
we're actually going to have uhlike two people, uh, that I am
so excited to have on thepodcast in the next couple of
weeks.
Um, so, it's somebody we've hadon before.
His name's Tommy Higgum.
He's the founder at LolaBlankets, but we're having him
(22:52):
and his head of branding.
Her name is Samantha.
They're going to both be on thepodcast in the next couple of
weeks.
And that's all we're going totalk about is brand, because
that's what they do is, likethey are branding experts.
They have gotten Lola Blanketsto where it's at simply because
of their branding, you know, andthe decisions that they've made
around it.
So so, really quickly, to me, abrand is more of the experience
(23:15):
that you're giving the customer, like, I think that's the most
simple way to define it.
It's the experience, and thereare dozens of different ways you
can help somebody experience.
Yes, dozens of different waysyou can help somebody experience
yes, from a landing page to theproduct, to the packaging.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So I've brought this up in the past, but I really I
will stand and die on this hill.
It is like when you distillthis whole conversation around
brand, all you're really sayingis like you, a brand is the
trust you've built.
Yeah, it's just trust.
Yeah, so does the experiencebuild the trust or does it
(24:04):
deteriorate trust?
Speaker 2 (24:06):
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Speaker 1 (24:56):
If you're selling luxury blankets like Lola, like
those aren't cheap.
No, I mean, what are they?
200, 300 bucks?
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Probably anywhere from like 175 to350, depending
on your size.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
So that's not an impulse buy right, like their
brand, like what they'rebuilding trust on, is that it's
a luxury experience, yep, sothere's going to be things that
you're going to be a little bitmore hesitant to display on an
ad if it's not building trustthat it's a luxurious experience
(25:32):
.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
It doesn't have the luxury aspect to it.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
However, does that mean you can't use cheap
produced UGC?
No, or does that mean you haveto have some kind of like
Vogue-esque model in?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
your In a studio, in a studio With a Tom Ford book on
her coffee table.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Not exactly.
Yeah, should you have some ofthat in your mix?
Yeah, yeah, like Lola'sbillboards game here in Utah.
I don't know how much they doit anywhere else.
Right, it's very much more ofthe high fashion the Tezza
collab they did.
It's very much like hot modelsWeird.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
High fashion is weird .
It's adding fashion to blankets.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
You have a blanket and a guy working on a car.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Obviously that doesn't make sense.
There's juxtapositions, visualjuxtapositions, that don't make
sense.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
There's juxtapositions yeah, it's like
juxtapositions visualjuxtapositions that don't make
sense, but it calls attention.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, highly attention grabbing.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
It's very high fashion.
Yeah, so they're doing thisbecause they're trying to build
trust around a luxury item.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean youcan't have luxury trust around
luxury blankets built around acreative that isn't high
production.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, or isn't as luxurious as your website?
Yes, right, so can I give you adata point?
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
So, mark and I, we've built and we have another
co-founder.
We built a tool called BestieAI, which is a purchase survey
software yes, right um, itallows brands to ask questions
after somebody purchases.
So on the thank you page it'slike, hey, how'd you hear about
us?
Or what motivated you to buylola blankets?
You know, and one of the thingsthat mark and I I remember in
(27:24):
our like early stages that wewere so set on it was a feature
that we had to build and wethought it was going to like
sell like hotcakes and it wasgoing to drive so much business
for brands was being able to.
It was called creative recall.
Yeah, we called it creativerecall.
What it was able to do was pullin the ad that the brand, uh,
that the brands were showing,and if you ask the question, hey
(27:48):
, how did you hear about us?
And somebody said, oh, I saw aninstagram ad.
You could then ask a follow-upquestion.
That said, do you rememberwhich ad it was?
And it would show your ads.
And we thought, oh, dude, thisis, oh, this is gonna crush it.
Like they're gonna be able tosend that creative back to their
creative team to be like, goget more of this.
You know this is gonna crush,yeah, but we'd have this section
(28:12):
there.
You know it would randomize it,right, but it would also have
like.
The very last response was Idon't remember.
Okay, we introduced this toseveral brands and over.
I want to say it was over like80 percent across all brands
said I don't remember.
Do you remember the ad thatbrought you?
(28:32):
And oftentimes it was the adthat brought most brands.
Have a.
I see an ad and I buy, right.
There were some of these brandsthat were it was like 20 to $50
AOVs that are not like weekslong's worth of me seeing ads
before I decide to make apurchase.
Oftentimes it's a cool and eventhat day they couldn't remember
(28:52):
what ad they saw.
So it's a very interesting data.
The reason I bring this datapoint up is because advertising,
especially on platforms likeMeta or TikTok or whatever
Visual advertising platforms,youtube it's really.
It really has one goal.
Platforms like Meta or TikTokor whatever visual advertising
platforms, youtube, it reallyhas one goal and that goal is to
(29:15):
get you to the next step.
It's not to sell it, it's notto build the brand.
The goal of an ad is to getthat customer interested in what
you're selling enough to takethe very next step.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Which is to enter into your store.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Which is to enter into the funnel which is your
store, a landing page, a productpage, a homepage, a collection
page?
Speaker 1 (29:38):
a whatever or you know, it could be even more top
funnel.
It could be just interact withyour brand.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
In a positive way yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Maybe it's sending people to become a follower and
to understand what your contentlooks like, or whatever, but I
think that there's a that's an,that's a really important
element that people miss.
Now, if I take it a stepfurther, it's to get a person to
get to the next page at thecheapest cost possible.
(30:08):
Yes, now, obviously thatdoesn't work if it's the wrong
people.
Oh for sure, you got to makesure it's the right people.
But that's where the messagingon the ad is, you know, is
really important.
That's where the experiencewhen they land is really
important.
So, if you're, you know, sellingmeals uh, home delivery meals
(30:30):
to moms because they're too busy, right, does the ad convey that
?
And then, when they land, is ittalking about how much time
you're going to save that mom?
Hey, on average, mom spendeight hours a week.
Minute making dinner.
This, this meal delivery cutsthat in half so you can spend
(30:52):
more time with the people thatyou love the most, or something
like that.
Right, that's the experiencethat we start to talk.
That's the brand building,right, that's where brand
building starts is when you tellme how the solution, how the
problem is going, how yourproduct is going to fix my
problem, and then, hopefully,the product actually delivers.
(31:12):
And then hopefully your pro.
If your product delivers, thenthat goes back to what Mark said
, which is branding is all aboutthe trust you build, Right?
So if the product delivers it,oh my gosh, I went from.
Yeah, I am that mom who spendseight hours a day, you know,
eight hours a week cookingdinner and I actually only spent
two.
Like, if it's any any mom outthere would be, like that would
(31:33):
be incredible.
If you give me six hours backof my day, that would be amazing
for her to work out or for herto do something for herself, for
her to clean the house or forher to do her job.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
You know they actually feel the?
Yeah, do they feel the benefits?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
And then what happens is they keep ordering and
ordering, ordering, because Ican't live without my extra six
hours a week.
If I had to do that again, orwhatever you know and they can
justify the price around it andthat goes I, I'm using mother,
you know, this is as an example.
I don't know why that popped inmy head.
There's, there's severalswimsuits.
Whatever, it is right yeah,it's just.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Does the product match the, the supposed trust
that you've been building?
Because again it's a leap, likewhen somebody is voting with
their money they'reintrinsically trusting that
they're going to receive abenefit.
Right, right, it's not just aproduct, yeah, it's.
(32:25):
What is this product going todo for me?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yeah, and the benefit isn't always a.
You fixed my problem like I hada flat tire and now I don't get
flat tires.
You know it's not.
It's not always like that itcould be.
I wasn't confident in my styleand now I am.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Correct?
Does it match the mental imagethat you've created?
Yeah, and that's all that.
Trust is right.
Like when you, when you'retalking about trust like
everybody has hopes and desires,like as silly as that sounds,
like, if you meet somebody,everybody's hoping to meet cool
people, right and trustworthypeople.
(33:06):
So when you meet somebody andthe expectation is, hey, this is
going to be like just like agood person, yeah, you know,
like you're not pessimistic, butthen that person like goes
behind your back or doessomething, yeah, it's jarring
right.
Like it creates it, creates thatdissonance.
But if somebody does somethingreally cool for you, like oh hey
(33:30):
, like just thought about you,like got this for you, or hey,
how are you?
I haven't talked to you in sixmonths.
Yeah, what's new?
Yeah, like a kind gesture, likethere's a reason why those go
so far, because they're theybuild a lot of trust in, in
somebody.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, and the reason why that's what everyone's
hoping for in people yeah, yeah,um, and if you can replicate
that in your brand, then you'regoing to win.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
You're always going to win.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Now the next question is how do I get as many people
into that funnel as possible?
Right, like that would be thenext question.
So back to ads.
I think sometimes the reasonwhy, the reason why this is such
an important topic for us,that's what we do for a living
right.
We run ads for people, wecreate ads for people, and so
we're producing thousands ofpieces of content every single
month.
Okay, so we understand thisworld and what we have
(34:20):
recognized is sometimes thehighly polished on brand.
Right and I'm I'm usingquotations as I say on brand, if
you're listening, cause I hearthat so often which is that's
the for a Lola.
An on brand would be aattractive model younger, fit,
(34:46):
high fashion.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Now I've looked at Lola's ads and I just want to
point this out.
What Trevor's saying is ifyou're listening or watching,
what he's saying is this is theexample of if Lola was so
focused on quote brand thevisual side of it all they would
do is what he's describing.
Yes, yes, thank you, exactly sobecause this is not all that
(35:10):
they do, right?
Speaker 2 (35:11):
No, no, no, they do a lot of this, but we just for
whatever reason, because Ibrought them up, they are the
subject, they're the subjectsorry, the subject here and so
tell me if you're listening tothis.
Hopefully we're representingthings okay here.
Um, but yes, they do both.
But if, if they were to, youknow if everything was on brand
and looked like their billboards, for example, or their website,
(35:32):
for example?
The problem with that nowadaysis that is so easily trained to
our eyes as people who consumecontent daily, people who get
like what was the last statabout how many ads we were?
We get a day um shoot it's like, it's like it's like way too
(35:54):
much yeah, I.
I want to say it's like athousand a day.
Yeah, we are.
You know, I've heard somepeople say like ten thousand a
day and I just don't know ifthat's humanly possible.
Um, but I also have heard thatthe average person scrolls on
social media for like six hoursa day, so maybe that is probably
true, true so, but anyways, weare so trained to understand
what an ad is versus what an adisn't, and oftentimes the highly
(36:18):
branded stuff will look veryad-esque.
And the reason why the stuffthat is sometimes we call them
ugly ads, you know, or thingsthat we don't, that are less
polished and on brand, on brandthe reason why those do so well
from an advertising perspectiveis because they trick the the
(36:38):
mind to thinking it's moreorganic.
Right, this looks like it'snative.
They call that nativeadvertising where it looks like
it's a part of the experience.
Yeah, yeah, a good metaphor oranalogy.
You've been good at off-the-cuspmetaphors, so I'm excited for
(37:01):
this.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
What's your reaction when somebody knocks on your
door selling you something?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I just don't want to answer.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Well, let's just say you answer, don't realize.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
No, how quick do you say?
No, uh like as quick as humanlypossible.
Yeah, hold on.
Can I give everybody just a tipfor this by?
the way, the best tip forsolicitors.
This should go viral, by theway.
When I say this, you think so.
You will get rid of somebodyimmediately if you say these
words okay, let's say it's pestcontrol.
Okay, that's a pretty commonone.
(37:39):
Pest control guy comes by.
Okay, hey, mark, can I we'reout?
It's always this we're helpingthe Smiths across the street
with their black widows.
You seen some of those, youknow.
I always just say my bestfriend owns a pest control
company, we use them.
Sorry, oh, nice.
Or or my brother-in-law owns awindow washing company, sorry.
(37:59):
You just say, like, it's yourfriend, it's a brother, and they
just leave immediately.
They don't try, they don't eventry, cause usually if you're
like, hey, I don't need it,they're like, well, but we're
doing a special and they'll keepgoing.
Now you know.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, my wife is very surprised about how direct and
rude I am.
I'm not rude, but how direct Iam with it.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
No, my brother-in-law doesn't.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Really Thank you though.
I always just say no, I didsummer sales.
I know the spiel, Don't worryabout it.
And then I just say bye.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
A little white lie.
One of my best friends does owna pest control company, so that
one is true that's true, andthat's how I knew it.
A pest control guy came to mydude.
I literally just went to mybest friend's company I'm never
switching back and he's like, oh, I do the same thing, see ya,
sorry, Go on.
The metaphor is, but themetaphor is what do you do?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
okay, here's the next question what do you do when
you're watching a game and thecommercials come on?
You fast forward it if you can,yeah, if you're watching live,
what do you do?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
uh, get up, get a drink do whatever, yeah, yeah,
like not pay attention?
Speaker 1 (39:08):
look at your phone, yeah yeah, so people have a
natural aversion to ads.
Yes, Um, so you gotta, you haveto make, you gotta go.
You gotta do two things right.
You gotta use what you've got,but you have to either blend it
in in a way that is it's non, uh, it doesn't trigger that
(39:30):
avoidance of like just get me,just get, get it through, like
I'm not trying to be sold to.
Yeah, let me go and again, thebest door-to-door salesmen.
Their approaches are generallygoing to be a way that bring
down the guard.
Yeah, right, they are going tomake you be like, okay, I'll
listen to you, yeah, so, whetherthat's like jokes or whether
(39:51):
that's some kind of intro, thatthat's direct and honest and
makes it so it's like, hey, just, I get it, I'm not wasting your
time, here's the deal.
So the best order door salesmenunderstand that, like most
people are just like don't, yeah, I don't.
I don't want to be sold toright now.
I'm home, yeah, so don't sellto me, yeah, how do you sell to
(40:15):
somebody who doesn't?
Speaker 2 (40:16):
want to be sold to.
Well, you got a Work around.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Natively work around it.
Yes, you kind of make.
You got to make the experienceway more organic, totally, and
that's hard, yeah.
So ugly ads make it so thatyou're bringing somebody's guard
level down.
So an ugly ad, that's what uglyads can do for you.
Yeah, they can bring somebody'sguard level down to the point
of I'm considering this, I'mlooking at this, I'm not
realizing it, so I'm not likeI'm not recognizing, I'm not
(40:43):
trying to be sold to threeseconds into an ad.
Yeah, yes so or you have to makethe the ad clever enough and
interesting enough visually thatthey're willing to sit through
through the hook.
So ugly ads.
They do a really good job ofbringing people's guard levels
down, of introducing thingsorganically, and we see a lot of
(41:03):
success with them.
They're not, but again they'reugly yeah, they're not.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
They're not curated on quote unquote.
Curated on brand piece ofcontent no, but guess what?
Speaker 1 (41:13):
everyone's getting sold to, like.
It's like door to door.
Everybody is getting sold toall the time.
So if you're not thinking abouthow to get around those
barriers of people's minds andwhen I say barriers right door
to door is easy because, like,there's a physical barrier, sure
, so it's easy for someone to belike, yeah, bye, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Or I don't even like if somebody knocks and they're
wearing a polo collared shirt.
I know it's a salesman, yeah,so I'm not even gonna answer.
So it's like I have my ringdoorbell.
I see him, don't care.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yep, but people have those same mental barriers and
brands don't think enough.
I, I, I believe people aren'tthinking enough about hey, how
am I approaching this?
As if, like, they don't want it?
Yeah, a lot of people don't.
It's not that they don't wantyour product, they don't want to
be sold to.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Yeah, yeah, nobody jumps.
Nobody's in the bathroom ontheir phone hoping to go buy
product.
No Right, they're mindlesslyscrolling and they oftentimes
buy products.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yes, or at least get the first touch points to in the
future, say, oh, I'm going togo buy this, yeah, yeah.
So when you're creating yourads, again, like, don't get so
caught up on what you perceiveas a brand owner or as a
marketer as brand.
Yeah, brand is just like, don'tconfuse brand with a style.
(42:35):
Yeah, like I'm not sayingstyling elements aren't
important, sure, and I'm notsaying that you shouldn't have
any kind of cohesive experience,but ads jobs, like you said.
Let's take a step back.
What is the point of an ad?
Next step is to get people tothe next step.
How do you get people to thenext step?
How do you get people to thenext step?
(42:56):
Well, guess what?
When a door-to-door guy who'sreally good, because and here in
utah we know like there's tonsof door-to-door sales companies-
here, um, including a churchthat does a lot of door-to-door
sales.
Sure, but the the door-to-doorsell companies.
They have techniques like it'sall psychological right that you
have to go in and the best onesthey get rejected.
They still get rejected a lotright, like you're still going
(43:17):
to have a conversion rate thatmost people are not going to buy
.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Yeah, but you've got to approach it in a way that
just says, hey, how do I getpeople to the next step?
So the door to our salesmenthat win aren't the ones that
necessarily have like the bestmiddle of their entire spiel.
It's the people that have thebest intro to get more people to
the next step.
They're just better at gettingpeople from.
(43:42):
Instead of what a 10% door toexplanation rate is what we'll
call it, they have a 20% door toexplanation rate, right, yeah,
right.
So then then the compound onthe way down for sure, for sure.
And so that's.
That's ads.
Like ads is how do you get fromopen the door to you're letting
(44:06):
me explain what it is.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah, yeah, Listen, I think one of the as we come to
the close here, I think one ofthe best things I can think of
that just keeps popping in mymind there's nothing that is
worse for your brand thangetting.
There's nothing that can beworse for your brand and not
getting eyeballs, eyeballs onyour brand.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Am I right?
Yeah, right, would you ratherhave?
Well, we've seen this 10,000people click on an ad.
That might've been not the mostbest representation of your ad,
but then you can then put themin the brand funnel than a
hundred people for the same cost, because those costs per clicks
oftentimes can be moreexpensive.
(44:49):
Right, and the answer is I takethe 10, 10,000.
Personally, as long as it's.
You know, they're generally myaudience, right?
Speaker 1 (45:01):
So and guess what, sometimes having a quote, lesser
aesthetic, an ad that's on thethe downside of aesthetics, sure
lead to a higher aestheticexperience, can be delightful.
Very good point, right then.
I don't think a lot of brandsthink of it that way.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
No, it's a surprise element it's like whoa this is
takes them to potentially thenext step.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
I want to learn more oh, that's interesting, like hey
I'm, and now I'm on like a fullon experience or whatever it is
Right so oftentimes they thinklike, oh, just because it
doesn't match, yeah, it's bad.
It's like, oh, that's not true.
Yeah, it's true, if your siteis horrible and ugly and your
(45:48):
product images suck andeverything Right, but all else
equal.
Like it can be a step, like ifyou're giving them steps up in
the experience, that's onlygoing to be better, sure, yeah,
but again how do you get them tothe next step?
Speaker 2 (46:01):
it's it's not a always an aesthetic thing 100,
yeah, and and most people justas well, like most, most brands
out there don't even really havea brand to.
You know, like that's anotherthing that needs to be
understood Like sometimes, whenyou're so small, you don't have
a brand, you don't really have.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
I mean, like you don't even have trust.
Like you have trust with there.
There's darling, such a smallpercentage of people, Like no
one even knows who you are.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, there's darling brands here in Utah that are
200 million, which that's somuch money like 200 million is
so much money and phenomenalgreat, and they have.
They have teams that haveexecutives from the the top
companies in the world workingfor them.
And you go to california andyou ask somebody, hey, have you
(46:48):
heard of this brand?
What do they do?
Cool, yeah, I'll check them out.
You know, it's just like it'sfunny because the e-com DTC
bubble makes you sometimes think.
Oh, everyone's got to know whothese people are Like if
somebody's doing 100 million ormore.
It's like, oh man, these guysgot to be well known.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
The whole world knows about them yeah, like guys,
there are billion dollar brandsthat no one knows about, brands
that no one knows about, butreally, until you're at that
like $500 to billion dollar,right?
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Most people know who Skims are.
Most people now who know who'sViore is?
You're still even Viore.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
People are going to be like Even Viore.
There's a lot of people thatdon't.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Same thing with Olipop and Poppy that just sold
for what?
Speaker 1 (47:25):
And look Skims people know about because it's tied to
Kim Kim Cardet.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Yeah, for sure, for sure for sure, without kim they
could still be a billion dollarcompany, but you might not know
about them.
Oh, but I was just scrolling onon skims ads the other day and
you see a ton of ugly ads fromskims and that's one of the most
popular brands in the worldright now, at least in the
united states.
Yeah, it's just.
When I say most popular, I meanjust people know who it is, so
(47:48):
don't I?
yeah, I think we can wrap it up,but don't get too caught up in
that first touch point.
Just remember that your brand.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
A brand is a trust.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
It's the experience, it is the trust that they have
built.
Yeah, I agree Around theexperience yeah, yeah, let your
guard down a little bit.
Get people to your site.
Have an exceptional experienceon the site that makes somebody
want to take the next step,guess?
Speaker 1 (48:12):
what If the ugly ad or whatever?
If the ad doesn't work, itdoesn't work.
Yeah, you can pause it.
Yeah, if it does work.
Let it ride.
What's the problem?
Let it rip, don't fix what'snot broke.
Yeah, I agree, that's all Amen.
Ciao, namaste.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Until next time, until next Tuesday.
Well, thank you everybody, andwe will see you guys next week.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Unstoppable Marketer
podcast.
Please go rate and subscribethe podcast, whether it's good
or bad.
We want to hear from youbecause we always want to make
this podcast better.
If you want to get in touchwith me or give me any direct
(48:55):
feedback, please go follow meand get in touch with me.
I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and TikTok.
Thank you, and we will see younext week.
A brand is the trust you've built.
Yeah, it's just trust.
Yeah, so does the experiencebuild the trust or does it
deteriorate trust?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Yo, what's going on everybody?
Welcome to the UnstoppableMarketer Podcast.
It is Tuesday morning and I'vegot my wonderful co-host here,
mark Goldheart.
How are you, mark Goldhart?
What up Doing?
Good Another day, anotherpodcast, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah, I hope everyone had a happy Mother's Day.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, if you're listening I mean listen if
they're listening to that.
Mother's Day was long.
I mean that was like two, threeweeks ago probably, yeah, but
for all you mothers out there,you are appreciated yeah we love
every one of you and all youfathers out there and soon to be
moms well, I mean out there.
I hope you treated your, yourwives and your moms wonderfully,
(00:59):
wonderfully but um, yeah, youhad a good weekend.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Then I did Great weekend, I went out to the geode
beds.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, you were talking about that on the last
podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
That you were going to do that.
We went and we found them, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
We found the geodes.
Found the geodes, got sometoads.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Horny toads.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Didn't get the odes, but you got the toads.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
We got the odes and the toads.
You did get the odes and thetoads.
Yeah, we got some geodes, nice,and some horny toads Caught,
like two or three of them.
So that was fun.
Horny toads are not toads, justso everyone knows.
They are lizards.
Oh, really, some people thinkthat they are.
(01:41):
They're not toads.
They're just called horny toadsbecause they kind of have
flatter bellies, they kind oflook it, but they're cool,
looking Interesting, and they'rereally easy to catch at night
when they get a little slow, alittle cooler, a little slow,
yeah, they're just a littlelethargic.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I have a funny story I'm stepping away from horny
toads but I'm keying in on theword horny.
Okay, I don't know where thisis going.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I have a good story about the word horny.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
So we were taking care of our neighbor's dog, oh
and while they were out of townfor their son's wedding, which
is down south in St George.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
And this story has something to do with horny.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yes, just stay with me, so every day.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
You've said it's about horny and there's a dog
involved, and now I'm not very.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Well, I am.
I'm about to introduce otherelements to this.
So the other day, so my kidsevery day are going in and out
of their house.
They wake up, they run over,they let the dog out because the
dog stays there.
The dog's not staying at ourhouse, the dog just stays at the
next door neighbor's house.
They have a dog you know, sothey let him out and then we
bring, you know, they'll bringhim over to our house, you know,
for a few hours.
Then we take him back andanyways, they're doing that all
(02:54):
day.
And then, and then my daughter,my oldest daughter, she comes
in and she's 12 and she goes um,I think that dallin and his
wife that's the couple that justgot married he's like I think
that they're back and my wife islike, oh yeah, they did say
like the mom did say that theymight be coming back a day early
(03:15):
to go hop on their flight fortheir honeymoon.
And we were gonna say a daylater.
And she's like, yeah, likethere was just a new car in the
parking or in the garage.
That wasn't there.
And it said honk, if you'rehorny, it was just so weird.
That's what my daughter said.
She just said it like sonaturally, and I was in, I was
(03:36):
in the other room.
The car, yeah, the car, youknow, like when people get
married it says just married andvenmo me and yeah, no, I
understand.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, okay, it's.
I'm still weirded out on thewindow it's thoroughly weirded
out, but okay on the window itsays honk if you're horny and my
I just.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I was in the other room and I hear my daughter
talking about the word horny andasking my wife what horny meant
and that was that was it.
My wife just deflected, wedidn't, we didn't discuss oh we
just deflected, but I just'tdiscuss.
Oh, we just deflected, but Ijust thought it was funny.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Just my daughter just tossing weird.
That is funny, but a prettyanticlimactic story.
Yeah, After I said it I feltthat no, that pun was intended,
just so everyone knows.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Nice, that was good, yeah, but yeah, there's my
anticlimactic horny story foryou.
Well, anyways, horny story foryou, well, anyways, well,
anyways.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
In other news geodes, just so you know.
Oh, back to geodes.
Yeah, you can sell thosesuckers for 500 bucks to a
thousand bucks each, yeah, so mykids wanna, they wanna make a
full business venture out of it,start a little business.
Yeah, they wanna go out, theywanna go to the best spots, they
wanna find some geodes.
That our neighbor has a rockcutter.
(04:46):
Oh, yeah, that's it's a goodtime to do that.
You know there's a lot of girlsinto crystals right now and
stuff.
So, yeah, tie it to astrology.
Yeah, like some crystal-y magic, some like earthiness.
Yeah, I like it Some wizardry,we'll see.
Yeah, and you guys are in, likethe Salt Lake area, which seems
(05:06):
to be that, and the kids yearnfor the mines, the children
yearn for the mines.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
They want to go dig, find treasures In other news
China and US came to some goodagreements Over the weekend,
sort of.
Came to some good agreementsover the weekend, sort of.
But yeah, 90 days 90 days man145% tariffs down to 30, which
(05:36):
is awesome.
Which is more like what it wasback in 2018, 2019, right it's?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
doable.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I think it was 20%.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
From the people we've talked to.
That's very good.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, what's really funny is?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Very manageable.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
If at the beginning you would have said it's 30%,
everyone would have been pissedoh my gosh, my costs are going
up 30%.
But now, when you go from $145down to $30, I think it was a
good marketing tactic, Actually.
Now everybody's relieved oh,only 30%.
That's the vibe we're gettingas we're talking to other people
.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, the hardest thing about the Trump
administration is you just don'tknow until you know there's a
level of uncertainty that kindof scares people, sure, sure.
Certainty, that kind of scarespeople, sure, sure.
Now I mean I'm a fan of certainmoves of any administration, um
, but in particular this one.
Like I think there needs to bea rebalancing with china, like I
(06:37):
think we're a little toodependent on china, especially
in more and less so with likee-commerce, right, more so it's
just like pharmaceuticals andpharmaceuticals and then, like
the uh, lithium yeah, lithium,ion stuff, like some rare earth
metals stuff metal stuff is istough but I mean, once we start
mining asteroids it won't matter.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
But that's maybe 50 years away or sooner, depending
on how involved elon's independs on how, like futurist,
you want me to go.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, but anyways, so that's good news.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
That's good news for the next 90 days.
That started, was it?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
on Saturday or Sunday .
It was announced Saturday, butlook, the deal is, if you don't
know this, china was facing likelarge unemployment numbers and
it's mostly affecting the youthand I think they were nervous.
(07:29):
Yeah, so good moves.
All now like whether you wantto say who won or lost.
I mean, I know that US importor US tariffs going to China are
10% yeah, they were like oneChinese 30% coming here.
So I mean, they're still.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
It seems like everyone's won.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I don't know if you'd call it winning, but maybe
better.
We'll see how it plays out.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So that's great.
You know, obviously it's notgoing to make certain things
cheaper, but yeah, inflation'sdown too, so let's see what
happens over the next Stockmarket's looking good, so let's
see what happens over the nextmarkets looking good, so we'll
see what happens it could itcould be a great buy like if
you're an e-commerce business.
This is the time where nowthings start to pick up,
consumers are a little happierright, a little less scared.
(08:15):
There's a really good chancethat well, how long is this when
?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
when does this episode drop?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
in two weeks yeah, yeah, probably two weeks from
now well, which would?
Be the.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Uh, it's the 13th day as we're talking okay, cool,
two weeks from now you'realready late.
Yeah, because summer is not it?
That's true.
Yeah, that's very true.
You got about a month and ahalf, two months, so especially.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
That's a good topic, that, and maybe this, this
podcast episode, shouldtransition slightly to that.
I still want to talk about whatwe discussed.
Discussed, but that is a reallygood thing to bring up is
especially what Mark is sayingis businesses just tend to slow
down a little bit in the summer.
Now don't come at me, becausethere's obviously some
businesses that do great.
Right, we've got a client rightnow who sells like summer
(09:04):
clothes collections that arelike very experiential and and
they crush it in the summer, youknow, but if you are a kids
clothing brand that sellsprimarily to moms, summers are
going to be a little more roughfor you why?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
well, listen, it doesn't matter who you are.
Summer's generally more roughunless you have a niche that is
very seasonal for the summer andeven that's going to lean early
summer.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, yeah.
You just have people who are onvacation.
You have people whose kids arein the house.
So instead of moms whogenerally make what?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
80, 90 percent of the purchasing power in a home,
it's well it actually comes backto just let's just back it up,
right?
If your business relies onsocial media to sell, your
viewership goes down.
Yep, in the summer, yeah,people are busier, people are
doing things, they're outside.
They're not looking at theirphones quite as much in the same
(10:03):
way, um, so that's that'sreally all it boils down to.
It's just a supply demandequation on the less demand
placement side of advertisement.
So there's less demand from theconsumer standpoint of looking
at their phones and scrollingsocial media.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah for sure yeah, my, my content always takes a
hit in the summer too, like soit's just so, yeah, that's what
it is.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
It's not what it is.
You know, people aren't buyinganything.
It's just like, how do youreach them?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
yeah, it's like clockwork once school is back
out, like once school's out, soprobably a week from now because
, my kids get out, you know, notthis friday, but the next, you
know, and so my content willstart to do this.
Right now it's doing this.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It'll probably start to plateau and do this so unless
I'm just so creative yeah, likeI mean, look, you can still
have success.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
We're not saying that no one ever has it it's just
generally.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Cpms go a little down in the summer, because it's
true because the demand is lessbecause some people stop
advertising as much, like it'sjust seasonal, like, yeah, it's
just a seasonal equation, butnonetheless, if you're, uh, yeah
, two weeks from now, hopefullyyou have tried to take advantage
yeah, great time to do some ofthe summer you know
(11:21):
collaborative stuff to do somegood sales.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
right, you're probably you in the midst of
Memorial Day sale when this isgoing off, you know, which is a
great opportunity for a lot ofpeople Speaking of content and
content doing well, and this isgoing to be old news, but
there's a really good principlebehind it and I think it's an
important one.
So have you seen what's goingon with Yellowstone national
(11:47):
parks tiktok account?
You heard about this at all?
no, I mean I'm going toyellowstone in july okay, but
but do you follow them on ontiktok?
It's mostly tiktok, it's oninstagram no, no, I don't so
over over the last little bit Tobe honest I just don't really
(12:11):
get on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
A little too much of a digital opioid for me.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
They have gone completely unhinged.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Oh, cool, like something you would never
imagine, like a Doritos accountor a Taco Bell.
Who was it?
Was it Doritos, a Taco Bell?
Who was it?
Was it Doritos or Taco Bell?
Nutter, butter, remember.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Nutter Butter went like wild.
Yeah, this is different.
Like these guys are droppinglike thirst traps as the hook.
So this like, for example, thisguy right here, okay, and then
it like will go to like abeautiful view and it's always
(12:52):
like dirty-ish lyric music, butit's going berserk.
So their Google trend if youtype in Yellowstone National
Park, and Google Trendsskyrocketing right now,
absolutely skyrocketing.
If you look, if you type inYellowstone National Park,
everyone is creating contentabout how nuts this is.
So, anyway, this guy right here,this guy right here, he is an
(13:17):
adult content creator.
So the reason how I found thisout, by the way, is this guy
just, it creates only fanscontent for women.
Okay, okay, and he is, uh, soare they stitching it?
So they're stitching it.
Yep, so they're stitching hisstuff which is public you can do
that kind of stuff, right andso they're stitching all these
(13:39):
like hot content creators andthat are like you know, it's not
explicit, but somewhat okay.
And this guy it's actually asuper funny story he posted this
video Like I had no idea whatwas going on.
He's like I've been like on afishing trip for the last two
weeks with no cell service and Icame back to like my only fans
(14:02):
account.
It's like skyrocketing, likeI've gotten more business
because of what's happening,like these guys are posting all
my videos and it's all thesewomen are finding out about it,
okay, and so he's blowing up andhe had no idea and he's like
super excited about it.
But anyways, yellowstone, thereason why I'm bringing this up
is if you look at national parksnow listen, I'm not saying this
(14:25):
is a good idea.
Okay, I'm like, but TikTokhasn't had a national park
trending.
Since I've been on, I've neverseen it.
Okay, and the thing aboutnational parks is everybody's
doing the same thing.
Let's post a beautiful pictureof this canyon, this river, this
(14:47):
lake, these bison, these bears,and those are cool, but to the
naked eye, I wouldn't know ifthat's glacier national.
I wouldn't know if that's.
You know, zions, I wouldn'tknow if that's.
No, no, us here in utah, weknow the difference, just
because we're so close to it allyeah, you're saying all these
(15:09):
things and I'm like I, yeah, youcan tell the difference.
Yeah, but I would.
I would imagine most peoplewouldn't.
Yeah, maybe, okay, yeah, Iimagine most people if they're
looking at something it'd belike oh is that now grace
Glacier national.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Is on.
Test me if I know what nationalpark it is so it's.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
It's just an interesting way that they've
stood out.
So that's that's gonna be.
The thing I'm super curiousabout is I'm hoping somebody
will do some sort of study to belike like I hopped on airbnb to
see if I could like was it hardfor me to book a, an airbnb in
yellowstone, you know?
Just to see if it was likegetting booked, because that's
what you don't know is like.
Is this translating to visits?
Speaker 1 (15:46):
um, I, don't know the answer.
Absolutely not, probably not,but I could almost.
I can almost guarantee it's nottranslating to anything for
them.
Maybe some merch sales.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Maybe, but nonetheless they're getting
people watching them and alleyes are on Yellowstone National
Park right now.
And now what's happening isother national parks are like
jumping in on the trend.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, that's funny, interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I mean there might be a little.
Maybe they're feeling desperatebecause I know I mean Bookings
might be down.
I know like US tourism is downa little bit this year, so maybe
bookings for national parks bedown.
I know like us tourism's down alittle bit this year, um, so
maybe bookings for nationalparks are down and they're
trying to get more traction.
I'd be interested to see ifit's actually translating.
It's just people who go tonational parks are people that
(16:40):
go to national parks, you know,sure, and then you have like the
one offers yeah, like I'msomebody who goes to national
parks, right, and I'm somebodywho goes to national parks right
, and I'm somebody who goes onceevery five to eight years.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, now that my son's at a different age, we're
gonna start doing it yearly likea guy's a guy's thing.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
But yeah, we're more of the people who are like every
year, we're going, like I'vebeen to all the national parks
within the five hour, six hourdrive.
In my lifetime, sometimes morethan once yeah, like we try to
make, like we went to redwoods,for example that's a state and
national park but like we wentto redwoods in california and
(17:25):
like we, we like to do that kindof stuff.
But that's why I'm curious.
Like it's, it goes back to thequestion of like who your actual
audience is.
Like are you converting a lot?
Like how many people are youconverting Views?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
doesn't always mean conversions.
And attention isn't like we'rethinking conversions, by the way
.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Uh, for them as visits or merch sales, I don't
know, maybe merch sales.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I didn't look to see see if there's a website that's
selling merch.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
But I mean, if the lesson like we don't want to
take that story too far, itdoesn't need to go, yeah and
there's a good chance.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
By the time you listen to this, it's not even
news anymore.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I'm like a little bit of an altruist when it comes to
you.
Can't just like love nationalparks cause they're freaking
incredible.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You know what, but maybe it's getting eyes on
people who are like I did notknow that it was that beautiful.
I've heard about this, but Idid not know that it looked like
that that's true.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, we got to go you know maybe.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
So when in doubt there's trap, when in doubt,
thirst trap.
What that's the lesson here?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
sex over so you're struggling with sales and
attention.
Get some, uh, only fan creators.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, I guess so stitch an only fan creator, all
right.
Well, let's, let's jump intotopic.
Today we we've had this what isbrand?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, we've had this.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
This has been a conversation we've had with
clients of ours.
Uh, it's, it's been a I mean,it's always a topic with
perspective clients.
Uh, we had a group of people inthe office the other day where
we were doing like a little likelunch get together where we
just chatted about brands and itwas brought up in there.
But the question is um, okay,what is the question?
(19:11):
Well, the question is yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
how do we want to pose this?
What is on-brand enough?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Or maybe the better question is do my ads need to be
on-brand?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Is it on-brand enough brand?
If the answer is yes, how muchon brand does it need to be?
So?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
let's start the conversation with why is there
this idea that there needs to bethis super cohesive styling
across experiences?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I mean, I think that that has always been I can go
back to, like my marketingclasses when I was back in like
2009, you know, and that wassomething that was like taught
in our brain is that every touchpoint needed to be cohesive,
like that's a very, that's avery and I'm not saying it's
outdated necessarily, so don'tget me wrong when I'm saying
(20:17):
that that's outdated, but thatthat was a principle taught to
me.
You know what we're?
We're almost 20 years later.
Yeah, you know the last 15years, that was such an
ingrained thing.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, I think it is outdated actually.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, I mean, I believe it is personally, but I
think that Well you have toremember, it comes from the
Google world Right.
Explain what you mean by that.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Well, you know, google advertising was the first
to kick this whole thing offand the search thing was like,
hey, you have to match, like thekeywords with the landing page
and you have to make sure, likethe experience is cohesive, like
, hey, if they're searching fortoothpaste, mint has to be a
mint toothpaste page and it hasto match up.
(21:09):
And then it translated over tomore of the display side of
matching it, like, oh, this iswhat your ad looks like.
It needs to make sure it matchesover here, but I think where
things have gotten lost is youjust have to make sure that
people don't think they're inthe wrong place.
Sure, so it's more of asemantic game than it is a true
(21:32):
styling game.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
I think it's more of a hey I'm expecting to go to.
What kind of experience.
It doesn't mean everything hasto match up perfectly from the
ad to the landing page.
It's simply I'm clicking on anad that is telling me about
(21:54):
sunglasses sure am I gonna gosomewhere that tells me about
sunglasses?
But I'm I'm going to an articleabout sunglasses, like that
might be strange, not a cohesive.
It might work right but it mightbe like what's it?
Why am I on an article?
It might take you to a productpage and that's what they're
(22:14):
expecting.
So it's really more of.
Are you aligning the, thelanding experience, with the
expectation right of the user,not so much your expectation as
a brand?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
yeah, I think, I think, I mean, I think that
there's a, I think there's maybea much deeper discussion and
we're actually going to have uhlike two people, uh, that I am
so excited to have on thepodcast in the next couple of
weeks.
Um, so, it's somebody we've hadon before.
His name's Tommy Higgum.
He's the founder at LolaBlankets, but we're having him
(22:52):
and his head of branding.
Her name is Samantha.
They're going to both be on thepodcast in the next couple of
weeks.
And that's all we're going totalk about is brand, because
that's what they do is, likethey are branding experts.
They have gotten Lola Blanketsto where it's at simply because
of their branding, you know, andthe decisions that they've made
around it.
So so, really quickly, to me, abrand is more of the experience
(23:15):
that you're giving the customer, like, I think that's the most
simple way to define it.
It's the experience, and thereare dozens of different ways you
can help somebody experience.
Yes, dozens of different waysyou can help somebody experience
yes, from a landing page to theproduct, to the packaging.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So I've brought this up in the past, but I really I
will stand and die on this hill.
It is like when you distillthis whole conversation around
brand, all you're really sayingis like you, a brand is the
trust you've built.
Yeah, it's just trust.
Yeah, so does the experiencebuild the trust or does it
(24:04):
deteriorate trust?
Speaker 2 (24:06):
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Speaker 1 (24:56):
If you're selling luxury blankets like Lola, like
those aren't cheap.
No, I mean, what are they?
200, 300 bucks?
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Probably anywhere from like 175 to350, depending
on your size.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
So that's not an impulse buy right, like their
brand, like what they'rebuilding trust on, is that it's
a luxury experience, yep, sothere's going to be things that
you're going to be a little bitmore hesitant to display on an
ad if it's not building trustthat it's a luxurious experience
(25:32):
.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
It doesn't have the luxury aspect to it.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
However, does that mean you can't use cheap
produced UGC?
No, or does that mean you haveto have some kind of like
Vogue-esque model in?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
your In a studio, in a studio With a Tom Ford book on
her coffee table.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Not exactly.
Yeah, should you have some ofthat in your mix?
Yeah, yeah, like Lola'sbillboards game here in Utah.
I don't know how much they doit anywhere else.
Right, it's very much more ofthe high fashion the Tezza
collab they did.
It's very much like hot modelsWeird.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
High fashion is weird .
It's adding fashion to blankets.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
You have a blanket and a guy working on a car.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Obviously that doesn't make sense.
There's juxtapositions, visualjuxtapositions, that don't make
sense.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
There's juxtapositions yeah, it's like
juxtapositions visualjuxtapositions that don't make
sense, but it calls attention.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, highly attention grabbing.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
It's very high fashion.
Yeah, so they're doing thisbecause they're trying to build
trust around a luxury item.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean youcan't have luxury trust around
luxury blankets built around acreative that isn't high
production.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, or isn't as luxurious as your website?
Yes, right, so can I give you adata point?
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
So, mark and I, we've built and we have another
co-founder.
We built a tool called BestieAI, which is a purchase survey
software yes, right um, itallows brands to ask questions
after somebody purchases.
So on the thank you page it'slike, hey, how'd you hear about
us?
Or what motivated you to buylola blankets?
You know, and one of the thingsthat mark and I I remember in
(27:24):
our like early stages that wewere so set on it was a feature
that we had to build and wethought it was going to like
sell like hotcakes and it wasgoing to drive so much business
for brands was being able to.
It was called creative recall.
Yeah, we called it creativerecall.
What it was able to do was pullin the ad that the brand, uh,
that the brands were showing,and if you ask the question, hey
(27:48):
, how did you hear about us?
And somebody said, oh, I saw aninstagram ad.
You could then ask a follow-upquestion.
That said, do you rememberwhich ad it was?
And it would show your ads.
And we thought, oh, dude, thisis, oh, this is gonna crush it.
Like they're gonna be able tosend that creative back to their
creative team to be like, goget more of this.
You know this is gonna crush,yeah, but we'd have this section
(28:12):
there.
You know it would randomize it,right, but it would also have
like.
The very last response was Idon't remember.
Okay, we introduced this toseveral brands and over.
I want to say it was over like80 percent across all brands
said I don't remember.
Do you remember the ad thatbrought you?
(28:32):
And oftentimes it was the adthat brought most brands.
Have a.
I see an ad and I buy, right.
There were some of these brandsthat were it was like 20 to $50
AOVs that are not like weekslong's worth of me seeing ads
before I decide to make apurchase.
Oftentimes it's a cool and eventhat day they couldn't remember
(28:52):
what ad they saw.
So it's a very interesting data.
The reason I bring this datapoint up is because advertising,
especially on platforms likeMeta or TikTok or whatever
Visual advertising platforms,youtube it's really.
It really has one goal.
Platforms like Meta or TikTokor whatever visual advertising
platforms, youtube, it reallyhas one goal and that goal is to
(29:15):
get you to the next step.
It's not to sell it, it's notto build the brand.
The goal of an ad is to getthat customer interested in what
you're selling enough to takethe very next step.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Which is to enter into your store.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Which is to enter into the funnel which is your
store, a landing page, a productpage, a homepage, a collection
page?
Speaker 1 (29:38):
a whatever or you know, it could be even more top
funnel.
It could be just interact withyour brand.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
In a positive way yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Maybe it's sending people to become a follower and
to understand what your contentlooks like, or whatever, but I
think that there's a that's an,that's a really important
element that people miss.
Now, if I take it a stepfurther, it's to get a person to
get to the next page at thecheapest cost possible.
(30:08):
Yes, now, obviously thatdoesn't work if it's the wrong
people.
Oh for sure, you got to makesure it's the right people.
But that's where the messagingon the ad is, you know, is
really important.
That's where the experiencewhen they land is really
important.
So, if you're, you know, sellingmeals uh, home delivery meals
(30:30):
to moms because they're too busy, right, does the ad convey that
?
And then, when they land, is ittalking about how much time
you're going to save that mom?
Hey, on average, mom spendeight hours a week.
Minute making dinner.
This, this meal delivery cutsthat in half so you can spend
(30:52):
more time with the people thatyou love the most, or something
like that.
Right, that's the experiencethat we start to talk.
That's the brand building,right, that's where brand
building starts is when you tellme how the solution, how the
problem is going, how yourproduct is going to fix my
problem, and then, hopefully,the product actually delivers.
(31:12):
And then hopefully your pro.
If your product delivers, thenthat goes back to what Mark said
, which is branding is all aboutthe trust you build, Right?
So if the product delivers it,oh my gosh, I went from.
Yeah, I am that mom who spendseight hours a day, you know,
eight hours a week cookingdinner and I actually only spent
two.
Like, if it's any any mom outthere would be, like that would
(31:33):
be incredible.
If you give me six hours backof my day, that would be amazing
for her to work out or for herto do something for herself, for
her to clean the house or forher to do her job.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
You know they actually feel the?
Yeah, do they feel the benefits?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
And then what happens is they keep ordering and
ordering, ordering, because Ican't live without my extra six
hours a week.
If I had to do that again, orwhatever you know and they can
justify the price around it andthat goes I, I'm using mother,
you know, this is as an example.
I don't know why that popped inmy head.
There's, there's severalswimsuits.
Whatever, it is right yeah,it's just.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Does the product match the, the supposed trust
that you've been building?
Because again it's a leap, likewhen somebody is voting with
their money they'reintrinsically trusting that
they're going to receive abenefit.
Right, right, it's not just aproduct, yeah, it's.
(32:25):
What is this product going todo for me?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yeah, and the benefit isn't always a.
You fixed my problem like I hada flat tire and now I don't get
flat tires.
You know it's not.
It's not always like that itcould be.
I wasn't confident in my styleand now I am.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Correct?
Does it match the mental imagethat you've created?
Yeah, and that's all that.
Trust is right.
Like when you, when you'retalking about trust like
everybody has hopes and desires,like as silly as that sounds,
like, if you meet somebody,everybody's hoping to meet cool
people, right and trustworthypeople.
(33:06):
So when you meet somebody andthe expectation is, hey, this is
going to be like just like agood person, yeah, you know,
like you're not pessimistic, butthen that person like goes
behind your back or doessomething, yeah, it's jarring
right.
Like it creates it, creates thatdissonance.
But if somebody does somethingreally cool for you, like oh hey
(33:30):
, like just thought about you,like got this for you, or hey,
how are you?
I haven't talked to you in sixmonths.
Yeah, what's new?
Yeah, like a kind gesture, likethere's a reason why those go
so far, because they're theybuild a lot of trust in, in
somebody.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, and the reason why that's what everyone's
hoping for in people yeah, yeah,um, and if you can replicate
that in your brand, then you'regoing to win.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
You're always going to win.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Now the next question is how do I get as many people
into that funnel as possible?
Right, like that would be thenext question.
So back to ads.
I think sometimes the reasonwhy, the reason why this is such
an important topic for us,that's what we do for a living
right.
We run ads for people, wecreate ads for people, and so
we're producing thousands ofpieces of content every single
month.
Okay, so we understand thisworld and what we have
(34:20):
recognized is sometimes thehighly polished on brand.
Right and I'm I'm usingquotations as I say on brand, if
you're listening, cause I hearthat so often which is that's
the for a Lola.
An on brand would be aattractive model younger, fit,
(34:46):
high fashion.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Now I've looked at Lola's ads and I just want to
point this out.
What Trevor's saying is ifyou're listening or watching,
what he's saying is this is theexample of if Lola was so
focused on quote brand thevisual side of it all they would
do is what he's describing.
Yes, yes, thank you, exactly sobecause this is not all that
(35:10):
they do, right?
Speaker 2 (35:11):
No, no, no, they do a lot of this, but we just for
whatever reason, because Ibrought them up, they are the
subject, they're the subjectsorry, the subject here and so
tell me if you're listening tothis.
Hopefully we're representingthings okay here.
Um, but yes, they do both.
But if, if they were to, youknow if everything was on brand
and looked like their billboards, for example, or their website,
(35:32):
for example?
The problem with that nowadaysis that is so easily trained to
our eyes as people who consumecontent daily, people who get
like what was the last statabout how many ads we were?
We get a day um shoot it's like, it's like it's like way too
(35:54):
much yeah, I.
I want to say it's like athousand a day.
Yeah, we are.
You know, I've heard somepeople say like ten thousand a
day and I just don't know ifthat's humanly possible.
Um, but I also have heard thatthe average person scrolls on
social media for like six hoursa day, so maybe that is probably
true, true so, but anyways, weare so trained to understand
what an ad is versus what an adisn't, and oftentimes the highly
(36:18):
branded stuff will look veryad-esque.
And the reason why the stuffthat is sometimes we call them
ugly ads, you know, or thingsthat we don't, that are less
polished and on brand, on brandthe reason why those do so well
from an advertising perspectiveis because they trick the the
(36:38):
mind to thinking it's moreorganic.
Right, this looks like it'snative.
They call that nativeadvertising where it looks like
it's a part of the experience.
Yeah, yeah, a good metaphor oranalogy.
You've been good at off-the-cuspmetaphors, so I'm excited for
(37:01):
this.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
What's your reaction when somebody knocks on your
door selling you something?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I just don't want to answer.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Well, let's just say you answer, don't realize.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
No, how quick do you say?
No, uh like as quick as humanlypossible.
Yeah, hold on.
Can I give everybody just a tipfor this by?
the way, the best tip forsolicitors.
This should go viral, by theway.
When I say this, you think so.
You will get rid of somebodyimmediately if you say these
words okay, let's say it's pestcontrol.
Okay, that's a pretty commonone.
(37:39):
Pest control guy comes by.
Okay, hey, mark, can I we'reout?
It's always this we're helpingthe Smiths across the street
with their black widows.
You seen some of those, youknow.
I always just say my bestfriend owns a pest control
company, we use them.
Sorry, oh, nice.
Or or my brother-in-law owns awindow washing company, sorry.
(37:59):
You just say, like, it's yourfriend, it's a brother, and they
just leave immediately.
They don't try, they don't eventry, cause usually if you're
like, hey, I don't need it,they're like, well, but we're
doing a special and they'll keepgoing.
Now you know.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, my wife is very surprised about how direct and
rude I am.
I'm not rude, but how direct Iam with it.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
No, my brother-in-law doesn't.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Really Thank you though.
I always just say no, I didsummer sales.
I know the spiel, Don't worryabout it.
And then I just say bye.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
A little white lie.
One of my best friends does owna pest control company, so that
one is true that's true, andthat's how I knew it.
A pest control guy came to mydude.
I literally just went to mybest friend's company I'm never
switching back and he's like, oh, I do the same thing, see ya,
sorry, Go on.
The metaphor is, but themetaphor is what do you do?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
okay, here's the next question what do you do when
you're watching a game and thecommercials come on?
You fast forward it if you can,yeah, if you're watching live,
what do you do?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
uh, get up, get a drink do whatever, yeah, yeah,
like not pay attention?
Speaker 1 (39:08):
look at your phone, yeah yeah, so people have a
natural aversion to ads.
Yes, Um, so you gotta, you haveto make, you gotta go.
You gotta do two things right.
You gotta use what you've got,but you have to either blend it
in in a way that is it's non, uh, it doesn't trigger that
(39:30):
avoidance of like just get me,just get, get it through, like
I'm not trying to be sold to.
Yeah, let me go and again, thebest door-to-door salesmen.
Their approaches are generallygoing to be a way that bring
down the guard.
Yeah, right, they are going tomake you be like, okay, I'll
listen to you, yeah, so, whetherthat's like jokes or whether
(39:51):
that's some kind of intro, thatthat's direct and honest and
makes it so it's like, hey, just, I get it, I'm not wasting your
time, here's the deal.
So the best order door salesmenunderstand that, like most
people are just like don't, yeah, I don't.
I don't want to be sold toright now.
I'm home, yeah, so don't sellto me, yeah, how do you sell to
(40:15):
somebody who doesn't?
Speaker 2 (40:16):
want to be sold to.
Well, you got a Work around.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Natively work around it.
Yes, you kind of make.
You got to make the experienceway more organic, totally, and
that's hard, yeah.
So ugly ads make it so thatyou're bringing somebody's guard
level down.
So an ugly ad, that's what uglyads can do for you.
Yeah, they can bring somebody'sguard level down to the point
of I'm considering this, I'mlooking at this, I'm not
realizing it, so I'm not likeI'm not recognizing, I'm not
(40:43):
trying to be sold to threeseconds into an ad.
Yeah, yes so or you have to makethe the ad clever enough and
interesting enough visually thatthey're willing to sit through
through the hook.
So ugly ads.
They do a really good job ofbringing people's guard levels
down, of introducing thingsorganically, and we see a lot of
(41:03):
success with them.
They're not, but again they'reugly yeah, they're not.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
They're not curated on quote unquote.
Curated on brand piece ofcontent no, but guess what?
Speaker 1 (41:13):
everyone's getting sold to, like.
It's like door to door.
Everybody is getting sold toall the time.
So if you're not thinking abouthow to get around those
barriers of people's minds andwhen I say barriers right door
to door is easy because, like,there's a physical barrier, sure
, so it's easy for someone to belike, yeah, bye, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Or I don't even like if somebody knocks and they're
wearing a polo collared shirt.
I know it's a salesman, yeah,so I'm not even gonna answer.
So it's like I have my ringdoorbell.
I see him, don't care.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yep, but people have those same mental barriers and
brands don't think enough.
I, I, I believe people aren'tthinking enough about hey, how
am I approaching this?
As if, like, they don't want it?
Yeah, a lot of people don't.
It's not that they don't wantyour product, they don't want to
be sold to.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Yeah, yeah, nobody jumps.
Nobody's in the bathroom ontheir phone hoping to go buy
product.
No Right, they're mindlesslyscrolling and they oftentimes
buy products.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yes, or at least get the first touch points to in the
future, say, oh, I'm going togo buy this, yeah, yeah.
So when you're creating yourads, again, like, don't get so
caught up on what you perceiveas a brand owner or as a
marketer as brand.
Yeah, brand is just like, don'tconfuse brand with a style.
(42:35):
Yeah, like I'm not sayingstyling elements aren't
important, sure, and I'm notsaying that you shouldn't have
any kind of cohesive experience,but ads jobs, like you said.
Let's take a step back.
What is the point of an ad?
Next step is to get people tothe next step.
How do you get people to thenext step?
How do you get people to thenext step?
(42:56):
Well, guess what?
When a door-to-door guy who'sreally good, because and here in
utah we know like there's tonsof door-to-door sales companies-
here, um, including a churchthat does a lot of door-to-door
sales.
Sure, but the the door-to-doorsell companies.
They have techniques like it'sall psychological right that you
have to go in and the best onesthey get rejected.
They still get rejected a lotright, like you're still going
(43:17):
to have a conversion rate thatmost people are not going to buy
.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Yeah, but you've got to approach it in a way that
just says, hey, how do I getpeople to the next step?
So the door to our salesmenthat win aren't the ones that
necessarily have like the bestmiddle of their entire spiel.
It's the people that have thebest intro to get more people to
the next step.
They're just better at gettingpeople from.
(43:42):
Instead of what a 10% door toexplanation rate is what we'll
call it, they have a 20% door toexplanation rate, right, yeah,
right.
So then then the compound onthe way down for sure, for sure.
And so that's.
That's ads.
Like ads is how do you get fromopen the door to you're letting
(44:06):
me explain what it is.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah, yeah, Listen, I think one of the as we come to
the close here, I think one ofthe best things I can think of
that just keeps popping in mymind there's nothing that is
worse for your brand thangetting.
There's nothing that can beworse for your brand and not
getting eyeballs, eyeballs onyour brand.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Am I right?
Yeah, right, would you ratherhave?
Well, we've seen this 10,000people click on an ad.
That might've been not the mostbest representation of your ad,
but then you can then put themin the brand funnel than a
hundred people for the same cost, because those costs per clicks
oftentimes can be moreexpensive.
(44:49):
Right, and the answer is I takethe 10, 10,000.
Personally, as long as it's.
You know, they're generally myaudience, right?
Speaker 1 (45:01):
So and guess what, sometimes having a quote, lesser
aesthetic, an ad that's on thethe downside of aesthetics, sure
lead to a higher aestheticexperience, can be delightful.
Very good point, right then.
I don't think a lot of brandsthink of it that way.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
No, it's a surprise element it's like whoa this is
takes them to potentially thenext step.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
I want to learn more oh, that's interesting, like hey
I'm, and now I'm on like a fullon experience or whatever it is
Right so oftentimes they thinklike, oh, just because it
doesn't match, yeah, it's bad.
It's like, oh, that's not true.
Yeah, it's true, if your siteis horrible and ugly and your
(45:48):
product images suck andeverything Right, but all else
equal.
Like it can be a step, like ifyou're giving them steps up in
the experience, that's onlygoing to be better, sure, yeah,
but again how do you get them tothe next step?
Speaker 2 (46:01):
it's it's not a always an aesthetic thing 100,
yeah, and and most people justas well, like most, most brands
out there don't even really havea brand to.
You know, like that's anotherthing that needs to be
understood Like sometimes, whenyou're so small, you don't have
a brand, you don't really have.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
I mean, like you don't even have trust.
Like you have trust with there.
There's darling, such a smallpercentage of people, Like no
one even knows who you are.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, there's darling brands here in Utah that are
200 million, which that's somuch money like 200 million is
so much money and phenomenalgreat, and they have.
They have teams that haveexecutives from the the top
companies in the world workingfor them.
And you go to california andyou ask somebody, hey, have you
(46:48):
heard of this brand?
What do they do?
Cool, yeah, I'll check them out.
You know, it's just like it'sfunny because the e-com DTC
bubble makes you sometimes think.
Oh, everyone's got to know whothese people are Like if
somebody's doing 100 million ormore.
It's like, oh man, these guysgot to be well known.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
The whole world knows about them yeah, like guys,
there are billion dollar brandsthat no one knows about, brands
that no one knows about, butreally, until you're at that
like $500 to billion dollar,right?
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Most people know who Skims are.
Most people now who know who'sViore is?
You're still even Viore.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
People are going to be like Even Viore.
There's a lot of people thatdon't.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Same thing with Olipop and Poppy that just sold
for what?
Speaker 1 (47:25):
And look Skims people know about because it's tied to
Kim Kim Cardet.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Yeah, for sure, for sure for sure, without kim they
could still be a billion dollarcompany, but you might not know
about them.
Oh, but I was just scrolling onon skims ads the other day and
you see a ton of ugly ads fromskims and that's one of the most
popular brands in the worldright now, at least in the
united states.
Yeah, it's just.
When I say most popular, I meanjust people know who it is, so
(47:48):
don't I?
yeah, I think we can wrap it up,but don't get too caught up in
that first touch point.
Just remember that your brand.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
A brand is a trust.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
It's the experience, it is the trust that they have
built.
Yeah, I agree Around theexperience yeah, yeah, let your
guard down a little bit.
Get people to your site.
Have an exceptional experienceon the site that makes somebody
want to take the next step,guess?
Speaker 1 (48:12):
what If the ugly ad or whatever?
If the ad doesn't work, itdoesn't work.
Yeah, you can pause it.
Yeah, if it does work.
Let it ride.
What's the problem?
Let it rip, don't fix what'snot broke.
Yeah, I agree, that's all Amen.
Ciao, namaste.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Until next time, until next Tuesday.
Well, thank you everybody, andwe will see you guys next week.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Unstoppable Marketer
podcast.
Please go rate and subscribethe podcast, whether it's good
or bad.
We want to hear from youbecause we always want to make
this podcast better.
If you want to get in touchwith me or give me any direct
(48:55):
feedback, please go follow meand get in touch with me.
I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and TikTok.
Thank you, and we will see younext week.
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