August 12, 2025 • 29 mins
Mark Goldheart and Hevor Krump dissect the aftermath of American Eagle's Sydney Sweeney ad campaign. They explore the pitfalls of chasing trends, the power of niching down in marketing, and why inclusivity isn't always the best strategy for brands. The duo delves into case studies like Lululemon and TikToker Hubs Life to illustrate the risks of expanding too broadly or changing your core audience. They argue that successful marketing often requires targeting specific demographics, even if it means excluding others.
Follow Trevor Crump on Instagram and TikTok @thetrevorcrump for more marketing insights and direct feedback.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So if you're a brand, I think that the point is is
like niching can feel likeyou're being mean, but you know
they say the riches are in theniches.
It's just much easier to talkto people when you know who
you're talking to.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yo, what's going on everybody?
Welcome to the UnstoppableMarketer podcast.
With me, as always, is MarkGoldheart.
Mark Goldheart, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Doing well Good Going on a fishing trip tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You are.
I didn't know about this.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
You don't need to know.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I'll be working.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Nice, where are you going?
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Manti LaSalle area.
Find some dinosaurs?
We'll try, we'll try.
Yeah, but yeah, it's just oneof my favorite little fishing
holes and creeks.
Nice, so I'll be working.
Starlink hashtag.
Starlink, yeah hashtag.
Starlink, so my days won't lookthat different.
(00:57):
Honestly, sure I get to walkout of the trailer, go fish in
the morning.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Come back work, come back work, fish later.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Maybe fish during lunch a little.
Come back work, come back work.
Fish later, maybe fish duringlunch a little.
Yeah, come back work.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Are you bringing the kids and the wife?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
No, no, this is just some buddies.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Nice, very cool.
Mark's always trying to get meto come with him and I have yet
to come with him in his traileron a fishing trip.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
And I should, you won't, I will scared a little
nervous of the wilderness yeah,I don't do well.
Mountain lions, yeah, um thereare mountain lions in this area
and people have been stalked.
So you do have to yeah, youhave to carry some protection
and firearms.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, just in case well, we got a shorty podcast
today, a quickie, quickie, yep,everyone loves a quickie.
So that's what I've heard.
Um, let's do a quick refresher.
So last week, if you listened,you taught, we talked about, we
broke down the sydney sweeney adthat everyone's discussed and
talked about.
And so, naturally, seven dayslater, I have to be like, okay,
what's going on with this?
(01:57):
Like, what's the repercussions?
Are we hearing?
Like, is american eagle gettingtrashed?
Are they on the up and up?
What's?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
going on.
So then, 28 days later, Are youreferencing this show?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
We don't know how the contagion effect has really
impacted the environment for 28,until 28 days.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, we're only like 10 days deep into this, so 10
days later.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
The virality.
If you go, you go and look.
You get it, though, becauseit's like viral like a virus
yeah, I like it.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I think like a zombie virus yeah, I think it's good.
Um so, 10 days later, searchvolume is still at an all-time
high, like it's dipped slightly.
If you're looking at googletrends and I will send this over
to you so you can kind of likelook at the.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Google.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Trend.
It is peaking.
It's, yeah, but it's stillwhere's my Google?
There we go, but as you can seein blue, like it's still there,
Sydney, sweeney, and that's melooking at American Eagle, not
Sydney Sweeney, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
The brand.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
But a couple things have happened since then.
Okay, american sorry Old Navyand Abercrombie have kind of
responded back to this ad Okay.
And they have created what iswhat I would deem as a more like
inclusive ad from a Well what?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I think we should take a step back though.
Okay, shall we Please?
Irregardless of how it wasperceived, and I get it
Intentions don't always matter,like you know.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Sure, you can still offend somebody without
intentionally doing so.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
What their like, what their clap backs are is simply
taking what they viewed as thenegative reception of the.
Sydney Sweeney ad.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And taking like the negative angle of how you might
interpret it, yeah, and comingback with a positive spin on
that, like they weren't reallycalling out, they were kind of
calling out American Eagle, butit wasn't like super direct.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
No, but it for sure was intentional.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yes, but it was intentional, so just lay that
out there, right, like they arebasically saying okay, how can
you take the american eagle adnegatively?
Yeah but some people took itnegatively because they felt
like it was exclusive and racialright, yeah, racially driven
right.
(04:21):
So they they came because ofthe reference of jeans yes so
clearly it's just a play onjeans or jeans.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, jeans, jeans and the fact that sydney swedish
is the hottest female actor.
When I say hottest, I mean Idon't necessarily mean
physically really should we rankthe female actresses?
I, I mean, I bet that she isthe most talked about female
actress from a beautyperspective right now, at At
least top three.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
I have no idea she is .
Yeah, she's obviously thehottest name.
Yeah, 100%, Like I'm trying tothink of At least actress-wise.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I would think Like when we were growing up.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I don't even know.
I would say like Alicia, whatAlicia Silver something.
She was a pretty hot name for aminute.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Alicia Silver something.
What is alicia silver something?
She like she was a pretty hotname for a minute.
Alicia silver jessica alba.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Jessica alba when we were younger yeah, she was like
the the thing.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, I would think so for a couple years.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
They kind of come and go pretty quick, but yeah, she
is the thing unless you're likea beyonce and you have kind of
like this staying power becauseof or take.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
You know sure so, anyways, back to this.
They create an ad that isinclusive from a diversity in,
uh like, skin, skin tone color,as well as body size.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Okay, okay, um so both Abba Krabi and old name,
which goes back to like thisidea that some people took that
as a negative right, Not anegative, but like they're not
being positive, body positive.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, this is.
What was negative about the adis that you didn't include
everybody.
Yes, right, they wanted it tobe inclusive.
Okay, so I'm looking at GoogleTrends and I've just typed in
American Eagle, abercrombie andOld Navy, and American Eagle
over doubles Old Navy andtriples the search volume for
abercrombie well have hasabercrombie and old navy gone up
(06:07):
uh, abercrombie I mean barelyold navy did a little bit for
for like a couple days and thenit's gone back to virtually
about the same.
Abercrombie barely went up.
Oh, to be fair, though, oldnavy's was a lot more direct,
like there was, theirs was muchmore focused, okay, okay, but I
also, something that was alsoreally interesting was duncan
(06:28):
donut.
Duncan donuts, they, they didthe inverse and they like double
down on what american eagle didlike on with a hot dude, yeah
like, like I don't know who theguy is.
I think he's some sort oftiktok dude he looks very gen z,
he's very handsome.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, gen z handsome, looks like a model has the has
the alpaca fluffy hair yeah youknow, and they, they double down
on genetic, like his genetics.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
And being the king of summer and it like alluded to a
specific drink, so now dunkindonuts, like there, let's, let's
see.
Actually, if I get rid of it'shard to.
If I remove, let me removeeverybody and just look at
dunkin donuts, because sometimeswhen you have like a ton of
search volume and somebody elsehas smaller volume, it the
reason, the reason why I liketalking about this is because
(07:11):
not so much to analyze theSidney Sweeney ad and you know
going down all the meta on that.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
This is the problem with like trying to chase trends
.
Okay, what is it?
You're always too late ifyou're chasing trends, if you're
always trying to hop in on atrend like the Old Navy, even if
you're trying to take the otherangle or whatever it is that
you're trying to do, it's justlike once the trend is lifted.
(07:41):
And it's never going to be asgood as what the original person
did you got to come up withyour own unique thing, and I
don't want to.
I also don't want to like losesight of the fact that like
there's a good chance that oldnavy and america or abercrombie
didn't hit off great becausethey didn't hire a sydney
sweeney, like you know.
I mean, the part of this haslike part of this is the sydney
(08:04):
sweeney effect, so an influencereffect, totally like a
recognizable face that everyoneknows doing something that was
supposed to be perceived, atleast by some people, as funny
or you know yeah, otherscontroversial or cheeky yeah,
it'd be the better way of sayingthat.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
But well, here's, I think, an interesting thing, and
this conversation can get alittle risque, so let's's just
like, let's, let's, let's putthat out there, right, right.
So, american Eagle, abercrombie, hollister, back in, like the
early two thousands, they werethe it brands for clothing,
especially for, like, youngerhigh school college teenagers.
(08:41):
Okay, that's a fact.
2005, 2006 that is what mywardrobe, or at least what my
mom wishes my wardrobe waslittered with yeah okay, my
sisters, that's where theyshopped.
And then, over the years,abercrombie has become nothing.
So what happens with a lot ofthese brands is you have a brand
who takes off, um, and theydive into like a very specific
(09:03):
niche group.
So, for example, abercrombie,american Eagle, hollister, it's
kids, it's good looking kidsLike, that's just how it is.
That's not me being creepy,that's what they went after.
Like, if you look atAbercrombie's marketing, it was
like I remember going into LasVegas, the Abercrombie in Las
Vegas, and there was liketeenagers, shirtless out front
(09:27):
of their store and people takingpictures with them, like guys
with six packs taking pictures.
My wife worked at abacrabi samething.
There was always a guy model,shirtless, and people were
taking pictures like it's just,it's what their niche was.
And then what did they do?
As they got so big, theystarted to market to everybody
(09:47):
oh, let's get kids, let's getadults, let's get, let's go for
everybody.
And what ended up happening tothose guys?
Like, like you said, nobody'sreally heard of them for for a
while.
Like they've kind of been donefor the last 10 years and they
might have been part of acyclical thing too.
Let's look at like LululemonOkay, Lululemon, same thing.
(10:07):
How did they get started?
They got started with yoga moms.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yes, but there's a I don't know if a lot of people
know what the CEO said talkingabout what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
What are?
Speaker 1 (10:19):
you.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Wait, what am I talking about?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Well, the CEO of Lululemon basically said there
were certain kinds of body typesthat he did not want Totally.
Yeah, but then At the beginningstages of Lululemon.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
But then Lululemon all of a sudden starts creating
product.
For who?
Everyone?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Men Everyone.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Women All sizes.
Right, they start to becomewhat the world deems as
inclusive.
But now is Lululemon in thediscussion for the top leading
athletic wear brand anymore, Imean anecdotally.
Let's look at data.
When was the last time youshopped at Lululemon?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
10 years ago.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, I haven't bought something for Lululemon
in forever viory right fiore isthe top dog you've got, like the
roans you've got a lot ofpeople have entered into the
space, like al yeah alo, but butthose they've kind of gone
after.
So the the point I'm just tryingto make right now is there is
this cycle in brand behaviorwhere you win big by going after
(11:29):
small groups we call it justniching down and what happens is
you start, brands start to feellike they're tapping out of
what is deemed as their totaladdressable market, and so they
go bigger and say, oh well, weused to just only make men's
clothes, now let's make women'sclothes, let's be more inclusive
.
Oh, we used to only make smallthrough's clothes, now let's
make women's clothes, let's bemore inclusive.
Oh, we, we used to only makesmall through extra large, now
let's make extra small throughtriple XL, let's be more
(11:51):
inclusive.
Right, so there's thisconversation about inclusivity,
but oftentimes what happens froma brand perspective and from a
marketing perspective okay, once, once again, I'm saying I'm not
taking a stance on an inclusiveversus exclusive approach to
looking at life, I'm just sayingfrom a marketing perspective
(12:12):
there is a big trend that once abrand starts to go more
inclusive from a sizingperspective and from not even
from sizing talking to anyoneand everyone, Well, I think,
look, I think the point thatpeople start to forget about
them.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, I think the point you're trying to make is
like Should a motherhood brandtalk to fathers too?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Well, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Right, it's exclusive , if you're not like.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Involving yeah, let's take race.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Let's take size out of it, right?
Yeah, I like this.
If you sell kids clothes andyou're only advertising to dads
like are you going to do as wellas if you're talking to moms,
the trends would say no.
I mean, I just think it'sobvious.
No, of course you're not.
And why is that?
It's because dads don't evenbuy it.
(12:59):
So a lot of times what happensis people try talking to people
who have no interest in evenbuying your kind of product.
Like it's okay to talk topeople and be quote inclusive
but at the same time, like youdon't have to talk to everyone
because not everyone'sinterested in you And's your
brand ethos.
Like what are you actually apart of?
Like that doesn't mean youdislike or don't like certain
people or whatever, but um andlike.
(13:21):
So obviously we're not talkingabout excluding people on terms
of like.
You should never exclude basedoff of, you know, things like
race.
But in marketing, you shoulddefinitely exclude based off of
things like age age and gendergender skills you know personal
preferences so yes, as amarketer, you're always going to
(13:43):
exclude period yes, it's justyeah and you can do.
And now you can get to the pointwhere you're a nike and you can
do more things across, likecause Nike's just huge right.
Like there's such a big companythat they can do women's and
men's and they can do basketballand track and like everything
underneath this, like athleticumbrella.
(14:05):
But guess what?
Like they also have cut thingsout.
They cut out their golfequipment Totally and they only
do golf apparel.
Yeah, because, well, they'vecut out their golf equipment
Totally and they only do golfapparel, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Because, well, they've cut out a lot of.
It's not just golf equipment,they've cut out hard goods.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
So they cut out hard goods.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Because it became Like there's too much going on.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
They are an apparel shoe company.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Right.
So is that being?
Is that exclusive?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah.
Is that them being wrong from aworld standard because they're
not including everything?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
And the answer is, of course, no.
So if you're a brand, I thinkthat the point is is like
niching can feel like you'rebeing mean.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
And also feel like you're putting yourself into a
box.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
And putting yourself into a box, but your niche is
going to.
They say the riches are in theniches right.
It's just much easier to talk topeople when you know who you're
talking to Totally.
So we did an audit for agifting store and they do custom
gifting for families.
Like, oh, if you're a father,like we'll help curate this gift
(15:16):
for your wife or for your kids,or mothers to fathers and kids,
and there's just like all thislike cross stuff, tons of skews.
It was just like, but who areyou talking to exactly?
Are we talking to moms?
Are we talking to dads?
Are we talking to both?
Are we?
And like, why are we eventalking to dads when, like, dads
don't even make these decisions?
Really?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
yeah, and just because you don't talk to them
doesn't mean you're like why areyou spending half?
You're excluding them, right,yeah, why are?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
you spending half your budget talking to dads?
Yeah, like they're not.
Like they might be efficientfrom a like a monetary, but not
scalable, yeah, so why are wespending 50 of our money talking
to dads when, like, you're notgoing to grow?
Talking to dads like it's goingto be with women, because
that's, you can talk to them,directly to them, and guess what
(16:00):
a lot of women will nudge thedad into buying, sure, so talk
to who your audience actually isand what what makes sense, but
don't just like blanket, throwout there like, oh, like we're
just gonna have yeah, sayeveryone on our because I think
everyone obviously would wantthat yeah
Speaker 2 (16:20):
right.
Obviously you want your totaladdressable market to be all 350
million americans, but there'sno brand that exists that way.
Not even nike would say that.
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The other thing that I thinkthat we haven't the direction we
(17:23):
haven't gone down on theproblem with niching and then
expanding that we've seen a lotof brands really fall into is
have you heard of the?
There's a TikToker.
His account's name is Hubs Life.
Have you heard of this guy,hubs Life?
Have you guys heard of HubsLife before?
No, no, so Hubs Life.
Look him up.
H-u-b-s dot life.
(17:44):
He is this guy who built anentire TikTok audience around
the de-glamorization of, likethe hustle and bustle of
entrepreneurship.
So a lot of people on TikTokwill show their lives and how
they're entrepreneurs.
And I'm getting up at 4am andI'm da-da-da-da-da-da.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
I'm so disciplined.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, he was one of the first people to be like hey,
I have a nine to five, I wakeup and I clock in at nine
o'clock.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Is he the guy that does like the day in the life?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
He does day in the life.
He's like I take a 30 minutelunch, I walk to it, I get back
in my Hyundai Sonata, I workfrom one to five, I cook dinner
with my wife, I take my dog on awalk, and it was just that.
And he built this awesome,awesome audience like huge, huge
audience.
Okay, and it was really coolbecause at the time you had not
seen a lot of people glamorizingthe nine to five.
(18:32):
Everyone was glamorizingentrepreneurship, right, and
owning your own business onTikTok.
So he's this guy who justcreates this audience of people
who are like, oh my gosh, thisis so refreshing.
I mean, most people are notentrepreneurs, most people
actually fit the nine to fiverole, but no one was creating
content for him.
So this guy creates this day inlife content, super relatable,
(18:52):
getting tons of fans, and guesswhat happens?
He starts to make enough moneywhere he doesn't need his nine
to five job anymore.
So he turns around, tellseverybody he's kind of quitting
his job, but doesn't really sayhe's like about to become an
entrepreneur.
And he becomes an entrepreneur.
And he becomes an entrepreneurand starts creating content
(19:17):
around the day in the life of anentrepreneur, thinking that, oh
my gosh, I just and then hejust loses audience loses
everything Like he.
he is more talked about.
I mean now this is.
This is getting to be a littlebit more older news Like this is
probably about two months agothat this happened.
It got so bad that this guy hadto turn off his comments so he
(19:38):
doesn't put comments on, becausepeople just trash him.
Like there has been the biggestboycott against this guy
because he just what happenedwas he changed and flipped the
script on an audience.
So we have this kind of thoughtprocess where it's like, okay,
hey, if you start to become moreinclusive to say, hey, my, my
(20:02):
product is for everybody, mybrand is for everybody, you have
the chance of gettingcompletely lost.
But on the flip side, if you gofrom one niche to something
completely different, you havethe chance to completely lose
something you have already built.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah, yeah, of course it does.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Are you looking him up right now?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, we've seen that .
Yeah, he, uh, there's a RollingStone article about him.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, I mean every news article has picked this up
Like he.
I feel bad for the guy Cause theguy got absolutely worked over
like people were just absolutelythrottling him that's funny and
creating I mean videos that aregetting hundreds of thousands
and millions of views on, likethis is where hub's life went
wrong.
Right, feel super bad for theguy because, like he built
something so cool that he's likeI don't have to work anymore.
(20:48):
Who wouldn't take that?
You know, like all I get to dois be a content creator and edit
videos, like and make double ortriple what I was making, but
what was the like?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
yeah, that's kind of funny because nobody and this is
one of the things where hiringa consultant can be beneficial
for people you know I know, Iknow everyone wants to trash on
consultants.
Sure, but know a good marketingconsultant would have said hang
on a second dude.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
maybe don't quit it Like hey man like your, your
whole audience, your whole stickis built around the fact that
you are like them.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah, you are like a man of the people.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, the second you go, quote entrepreneur you are
no longer a man of the people.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
You're no longer part of that.
You know, like you're no longerglamorizing like the everyday
man, totally like you're runninga huge risk by saying hey,
thanks everyone, I'm anentrepreneur now, and then
everyone's like wait a second,I'm not following you for that.
Yeah, I'm following you to doyour nine to five yeah, totally
make me feel good about myselfor make me feel good about nine
(21:51):
to five.
I can't.
Whatever the reason like that'sthe ethos and he was being you
could say he's being exclusiveto people who don't have nine to
fives.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah.
So I mean, listen, let's, let's, as we wrap things up, like the
two thoughts I have, I thinkthat there has been this
movement, um, that social,social media has put into the
atmosphere that brands need tobe inclusive and if they are not
inclusive, they're, thereforethey are bad.
And there are some brands thatfall to the mob, uh, the
(22:23):
influence, you know, the socialmedia mob and, um, they sure
they take a stand, um and theybecome more inclusive, but
there's a huge, huge risk thatit hurts your marketing and can
hurt your business, right?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
There's examples of this using pop culture.
So like if you take rap,especially rap from the 80s and
90s, and like, let's like godown back to like NWA.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Like NWA and Ice Cube and all these guys like they
weren't writing songs to appealto white people.
Yeah, right, they were writingsongs specifically for their
peers.
Yeah, their group, sure.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Their communities, the black.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
American.
Yeah, that could relate totheir experiences.
Yeah, and they didn't, and theynever stopped right.
They used their specific kindof verbiage and language and
they didn't bend it all just toappeal to the bigger audience,
which would have been the whiteaudience in America right.
(23:27):
But, over time they becamemainstream, but they didn't
really change who they wereright Like.
They stayed pretty consistentLike Snoop Dogg.
I think Snoop Dogg's kind ofgone through more of like an
adult evolution, like as he'sgotten older.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
But he's still Snoop Dogg, yeah, right.
So I think sometimes you canlook at artists and say, hey,
like did Snoop sell out?
And just like sell out to talkinto his community and being who
he was and where he's from, andI don't think I would say I
don't think he has.
He just became successful.
But they stayed niche, right.
And look how big that genre got.
(24:03):
Yeah, like Kendrick Lamar isn'tmaking music for me, right?
I think that's pretty obvious Ifyou look at me you know he's
not for me, yeah, but I hearKendrick Lamar all the time,
totally.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
We'll say the same thing with Taylor Swift, right?
Taylor Swift is not creatingmusic for you yet.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Taylor.
Swift is making music forfemales yeah, usually younger
Scooming younger females Goingthrough emotions yeah, through
heartbreaks and romance andstuff.
That's who she talks to.
She's not talking to a 35 yearold dad of three yeah so she's
not excluding me.
(24:41):
Yeah, but like you could say,well, why don't you make?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
if she isn't it, yeah , yeah, I I make a song about me
.
I make a song about good dads,taylor I think there's probably
somebody could clip this podcastand make us seem like we're
yeah terribly, like you know, insocial media's world, racist.
What by what we're saying?
or or, or sexist sexist or ornot body positive, or whatever.
The point we're just trying tomake is often you have to be
(25:06):
very careful, um, when it comesto the the term inclusivity in
your marketing strategies,because sometimes, and most
times, it's very, very importantto niche down to a specific
type of person right, thegranola mom who only consumes
(25:27):
natural products Like that's aniche to somebody who might want
to buy.
You know, we've worked withpeople who sell breast milk
jewelry.
Right, like that's the type ofperson who's buying those kinds
of things.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
But does that exclude the mom who does formula, who
can't breastfeed, you know wholike?
Yes, it does, but does thatmean that she is not an
inclusive person?
No Right, it just means thatshe's is not an inclusive person
.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
No Right.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
It just means that she's narrowed down something
that somebody wants.
And the most important thing inmarketing actually isn't the
messaging, it's the audience,who then you can tailor the
messaging to.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, it's product market fit.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And you got to make sure your message matches the
market that your product fits inExactly A hundred percent.
Market that your product fitsin Exactly 100%.
That's all it is, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
So, at the end of the day, american Eagle, I give it
a massive win.
It's a massive win for whatthey did.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
It's a massive marketing win Whether it's a
long-term stay.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
No idea.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
It's 28 days later.
We'll find out.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
We'll keep giving updates on this, see, if there's
a long-term stay.
No idea, it's 28 days later.
We'll find out.
Yeah, we'll keep giving updateson this.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
There's a zombie outbreak from it yeah, like what
?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
what?
Yeah, in an intent, it was agreat marketing, marketing
decision.
Keyword marketing decisionbecause they targeted their old
audience.
That got them to where theyonce were.
Yes, which were people whocared about hot people wearing
their clothes yeah, if you'relistening to this, I'm doing
quotation marks and hot becauseobviously that is a relative
(27:02):
term.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
And I don't have any American Eagle and I will
probably never own AmericanEagle.
Yeah, but they're not talkingto me.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Yeah nor me, and I hope everyone understands what
we're trying to say here, rightLike, these are marketing wins.
We're not talking about beinginclusive in life and how you
treat other people.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
We're talking about just curating your message.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, we're just talking about how you, if you
want to succeed and get theright attention, narrowing
things down is, strategicallyand historically, the best way
to do so.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yes, but it is hard.
It is hard for certain kinds ofbrands because it's easy to get
lost in the ambiguity of acertain audience.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Which, like American Eagle, there's a lot of
ambiguity in that audience.
Yeah, but what did they say?
They were like hey, we'retargeting young people, young
people all love Sydney Sweeneynow.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, they care about that type of stuff a lot more,
right you?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
know like she's the it thing that everyone's looking
to, so let's go after her, sure.
That's kind of all they did.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, I agree, yeah, I agree, yeah, it's really not
rocket science with that.
No, niching is powerful.
Like Mark said, there's richesin the niches.
There are, yeah.
So if you're feeling like youprobably have a lot more time to
lap up before you feel like youhave to introduce a new
(28:31):
category, fair enough.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, usually people are more worried about expanding
before they should.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
It's usually a message issue.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
And not saying expansion is the wrong issue.
You don't do that.
But it's a lot harder to expandthan it is to nab a more cam
For sure, thank you guys.
This was short, quick.
Don't clip this inappropriatelyeither.
So I'm not saying that to you,nate, I'm saying that to the
(29:04):
rest of anyone else who listensto this.
All right, we'll see you guysnext week.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Unstoppable Marketer
podcast.
Please go rate and subscribethe podcast, whether it's good
or bad, we want to hear from you, because we always want to make
this podcast better.
If you want to get in touchwith me or give me any direct
(29:24):
feedback, please go follow meand get in touch with me.
I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and TikTok.
Thank you, and we will see younext week.
So if you're a brand, I think that the point is is
like niching can feel likeyou're being mean, but you know
they say the riches are in theniches.
It's just much easier to talkto people when you know who
you're talking to.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yo, what's going on everybody?
Welcome to the UnstoppableMarketer podcast.
With me, as always, is MarkGoldheart.
Mark Goldheart, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Doing well Good Going on a fishing trip tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You are.
I didn't know about this.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
You don't need to know.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I'll be working.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Nice, where are you going?
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Manti LaSalle area.
Find some dinosaurs?
We'll try, we'll try.
Yeah, but yeah, it's just oneof my favorite little fishing
holes and creeks.
Nice, so I'll be working.
Starlink hashtag.
Starlink, yeah hashtag.
Starlink, so my days won't lookthat different.
(00:57):
Honestly, sure I get to walkout of the trailer, go fish in
the morning.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Come back work, come back work, fish later.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Maybe fish during lunch a little.
Come back work, come back work.
Fish later, maybe fish duringlunch a little.
Yeah, come back work.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Are you bringing the kids and the wife?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
No, no, this is just some buddies.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Nice, very cool.
Mark's always trying to get meto come with him and I have yet
to come with him in his traileron a fishing trip.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
And I should, you won't, I will scared a little
nervous of the wilderness yeah,I don't do well.
Mountain lions, yeah, um thereare mountain lions in this area
and people have been stalked.
So you do have to yeah, youhave to carry some protection
and firearms.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, just in case well, we got a shorty podcast
today, a quickie, quickie, yep,everyone loves a quickie.
So that's what I've heard.
Um, let's do a quick refresher.
So last week, if you listened,you taught, we talked about, we
broke down the sydney sweeney adthat everyone's discussed and
talked about.
And so, naturally, seven dayslater, I have to be like, okay,
what's going on with this?
(01:57):
Like, what's the repercussions?
Are we hearing?
Like, is american eagle gettingtrashed?
Are they on the up and up?
What's?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
going on.
So then, 28 days later, Are youreferencing this show?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
We don't know how the contagion effect has really
impacted the environment for 28,until 28 days.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, we're only like 10 days deep into this, so 10
days later.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
The virality.
If you go, you go and look.
You get it, though, becauseit's like viral like a virus
yeah, I like it.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I think like a zombie virus yeah, I think it's good.
Um so, 10 days later, searchvolume is still at an all-time
high, like it's dipped slightly.
If you're looking at googletrends and I will send this over
to you so you can kind of likelook at the.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Google.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Trend.
It is peaking.
It's, yeah, but it's stillwhere's my Google?
There we go, but as you can seein blue, like it's still there,
Sydney, sweeney, and that's melooking at American Eagle, not
Sydney Sweeney, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
The brand.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
But a couple things have happened since then.
Okay, american sorry Old Navyand Abercrombie have kind of
responded back to this ad Okay.
And they have created what iswhat I would deem as a more like
inclusive ad from a Well what?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I think we should take a step back though.
Okay, shall we Please?
Irregardless of how it wasperceived, and I get it
Intentions don't always matter,like you know.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Sure, you can still offend somebody without
intentionally doing so.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
What their like, what their clap backs are is simply
taking what they viewed as thenegative reception of the.
Sydney Sweeney ad.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And taking like the negative angle of how you might
interpret it, yeah, and comingback with a positive spin on
that, like they weren't reallycalling out, they were kind of
calling out American Eagle, butit wasn't like super direct.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
No, but it for sure was intentional.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yes, but it was intentional, so just lay that
out there, right, like they arebasically saying okay, how can
you take the american eagle adnegatively?
Yeah but some people took itnegatively because they felt
like it was exclusive and racialright, yeah, racially driven
right.
(04:21):
So they they came because ofthe reference of jeans yes so
clearly it's just a play onjeans or jeans.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, jeans, jeans and the fact that sydney swedish
is the hottest female actor.
When I say hottest, I mean Idon't necessarily mean
physically really should we rankthe female actresses?
I, I mean, I bet that she isthe most talked about female
actress from a beautyperspective right now, at At
least top three.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
I have no idea she is .
Yeah, she's obviously thehottest name.
Yeah, 100%, Like I'm trying tothink of At least actress-wise.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I would think Like when we were growing up.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I don't even know.
I would say like Alicia, whatAlicia Silver something.
She was a pretty hot name for aminute.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Alicia Silver something.
What is alicia silver something?
She like she was a pretty hotname for a minute.
Alicia silver jessica alba.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Jessica alba when we were younger yeah, she was like
the the thing.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, I would think so for a couple years.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
They kind of come and go pretty quick, but yeah, she
is the thing unless you're likea beyonce and you have kind of
like this staying power becauseof or take.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
You know sure so, anyways, back to this.
They create an ad that isinclusive from a diversity in,
uh like, skin, skin tone color,as well as body size.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Okay, okay, um so both Abba Krabi and old name,
which goes back to like thisidea that some people took that
as a negative right, Not anegative, but like they're not
being positive, body positive.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, this is.
What was negative about the adis that you didn't include
everybody.
Yes, right, they wanted it tobe inclusive.
Okay, so I'm looking at GoogleTrends and I've just typed in
American Eagle, abercrombie andOld Navy, and American Eagle
over doubles Old Navy andtriples the search volume for
abercrombie well have hasabercrombie and old navy gone up
(06:07):
uh, abercrombie I mean barelyold navy did a little bit for
for like a couple days and thenit's gone back to virtually
about the same.
Abercrombie barely went up.
Oh, to be fair, though, oldnavy's was a lot more direct,
like there was, theirs was muchmore focused, okay, okay, but I
also, something that was alsoreally interesting was duncan
(06:28):
donut.
Duncan donuts, they, they didthe inverse and they like double
down on what american eagle didlike on with a hot dude, yeah
like, like I don't know who theguy is.
I think he's some sort oftiktok dude he looks very gen z,
he's very handsome.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, gen z handsome, looks like a model has the has
the alpaca fluffy hair yeah youknow, and they, they double down
on genetic, like his genetics.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
And being the king of summer and it like alluded to a
specific drink, so now dunkindonuts, like there, let's, let's
see.
Actually, if I get rid of it'shard to.
If I remove, let me removeeverybody and just look at
dunkin donuts, because sometimeswhen you have like a ton of
search volume and somebody elsehas smaller volume, it the
reason, the reason why I liketalking about this is because
(07:11):
not so much to analyze theSidney Sweeney ad and you know
going down all the meta on that.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
This is the problem with like trying to chase trends
.
Okay, what is it?
You're always too late ifyou're chasing trends, if you're
always trying to hop in on atrend like the Old Navy, even if
you're trying to take the otherangle or whatever it is that
you're trying to do, it's justlike once the trend is lifted.
(07:41):
And it's never going to be asgood as what the original person
did you got to come up withyour own unique thing, and I
don't want to.
I also don't want to like losesight of the fact that like
there's a good chance that oldnavy and america or abercrombie
didn't hit off great becausethey didn't hire a sydney
sweeney, like you know.
I mean, the part of this haslike part of this is the sydney
(08:04):
sweeney effect, so an influencereffect, totally like a
recognizable face that everyoneknows doing something that was
supposed to be perceived, atleast by some people, as funny
or you know yeah, otherscontroversial or cheeky yeah,
it'd be the better way of sayingthat.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
But well, here's, I think, an interesting thing, and
this conversation can get alittle risque, so let's's just
like, let's, let's, let's putthat out there, right, right.
So, american Eagle, abercrombie, hollister, back in, like the
early two thousands, they werethe it brands for clothing,
especially for, like, youngerhigh school college teenagers.
(08:41):
Okay, that's a fact.
2005, 2006 that is what mywardrobe, or at least what my
mom wishes my wardrobe waslittered with yeah okay, my
sisters, that's where theyshopped.
And then, over the years,abercrombie has become nothing.
So what happens with a lot ofthese brands is you have a brand
who takes off, um, and theydive into like a very specific
(09:03):
niche group.
So, for example, abercrombie,american Eagle, hollister, it's
kids, it's good looking kidsLike, that's just how it is.
That's not me being creepy,that's what they went after.
Like, if you look atAbercrombie's marketing, it was
like I remember going into LasVegas, the Abercrombie in Las
Vegas, and there was liketeenagers, shirtless out front
(09:27):
of their store and people takingpictures with them, like guys
with six packs taking pictures.
My wife worked at abacrabi samething.
There was always a guy model,shirtless, and people were
taking pictures like it's just,it's what their niche was.
And then what did they do?
As they got so big, theystarted to market to everybody
(09:47):
oh, let's get kids, let's getadults, let's get, let's go for
everybody.
And what ended up happening tothose guys?
Like, like you said, nobody'sreally heard of them for for a
while.
Like they've kind of been donefor the last 10 years and they
might have been part of acyclical thing too.
Let's look at like LululemonOkay, Lululemon, same thing.
(10:07):
How did they get started?
They got started with yoga moms.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yes, but there's a I don't know if a lot of people
know what the CEO said talkingabout what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
What are?
Speaker 1 (10:19):
you.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Wait, what am I talking about?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Well, the CEO of Lululemon basically said there
were certain kinds of body typesthat he did not want Totally.
Yeah, but then At the beginningstages of Lululemon.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
But then Lululemon all of a sudden starts creating
product.
For who?
Everyone?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Men Everyone.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Women All sizes.
Right, they start to becomewhat the world deems as
inclusive.
But now is Lululemon in thediscussion for the top leading
athletic wear brand anymore, Imean anecdotally.
Let's look at data.
When was the last time youshopped at Lululemon?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
10 years ago.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, I haven't bought something for Lululemon
in forever viory right fiore isthe top dog you've got, like the
roans you've got a lot ofpeople have entered into the
space, like al yeah alo, but butthose they've kind of gone
after.
So the the point I'm just tryingto make right now is there is
this cycle in brand behaviorwhere you win big by going after
(11:29):
small groups we call it justniching down and what happens is
you start, brands start to feellike they're tapping out of
what is deemed as their totaladdressable market, and so they
go bigger and say, oh well, weused to just only make men's
clothes, now let's make women'sclothes, let's be more inclusive
.
Oh, we used to only make smallthrough's clothes, now let's
make women's clothes, let's bemore inclusive.
Oh, we, we used to only makesmall through extra large, now
let's make extra small throughtriple XL, let's be more
(11:51):
inclusive.
Right, so there's thisconversation about inclusivity,
but oftentimes what happens froma brand perspective and from a
marketing perspective okay, once, once again, I'm saying I'm not
taking a stance on an inclusiveversus exclusive approach to
looking at life, I'm just sayingfrom a marketing perspective
(12:12):
there is a big trend that once abrand starts to go more
inclusive from a sizingperspective and from not even
from sizing talking to anyoneand everyone, Well, I think,
look, I think the point thatpeople start to forget about
them.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, I think the point you're trying to make is
like Should a motherhood brandtalk to fathers too?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Well, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Right, it's exclusive , if you're not like.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Involving yeah, let's take race.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Let's take size out of it, right?
Yeah, I like this.
If you sell kids clothes andyou're only advertising to dads
like are you going to do as wellas if you're talking to moms,
the trends would say no.
I mean, I just think it'sobvious.
No, of course you're not.
And why is that?
It's because dads don't evenbuy it.
(12:59):
So a lot of times what happensis people try talking to people
who have no interest in evenbuying your kind of product.
Like it's okay to talk topeople and be quote inclusive
but at the same time, like youdon't have to talk to everyone
because not everyone'sinterested in you And's your
brand ethos.
Like what are you actually apart of?
Like that doesn't mean youdislike or don't like certain
people or whatever, but um andlike.
(13:21):
So obviously we're not talkingabout excluding people on terms
of like.
You should never exclude basedoff of, you know, things like
race.
But in marketing, you shoulddefinitely exclude based off of
things like age age and gendergender skills you know personal
preferences so yes, as amarketer, you're always going to
(13:43):
exclude period yes, it's justyeah and you can do.
And now you can get to the pointwhere you're a nike and you can
do more things across, likecause Nike's just huge right.
Like there's such a big companythat they can do women's and
men's and they can do basketballand track and like everything
underneath this, like athleticumbrella.
(14:05):
But guess what?
Like they also have cut thingsout.
They cut out their golfequipment Totally and they only
do golf apparel.
Yeah, because, well, they'vecut out their golf equipment
Totally and they only do golfapparel, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Because, well, they've cut out a lot of.
It's not just golf equipment,they've cut out hard goods.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
So they cut out hard goods.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Because it became Like there's too much going on.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
They are an apparel shoe company.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Right.
So is that being?
Is that exclusive?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah.
Is that them being wrong from aworld standard because they're
not including everything?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
And the answer is, of course, no.
So if you're a brand, I thinkthat the point is is like
niching can feel like you'rebeing mean.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
And also feel like you're putting yourself into a
box.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
And putting yourself into a box, but your niche is
going to.
They say the riches are in theniches right.
It's just much easier to talk topeople when you know who you're
talking to Totally.
So we did an audit for agifting store and they do custom
gifting for families.
Like, oh, if you're a father,like we'll help curate this gift
(15:16):
for your wife or for your kids,or mothers to fathers and kids,
and there's just like all thislike cross stuff, tons of skews.
It was just like, but who areyou talking to exactly?
Are we talking to moms?
Are we talking to dads?
Are we talking to both?
Are we?
And like, why are we eventalking to dads when, like, dads
don't even make these decisions?
Really?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
yeah, and just because you don't talk to them
doesn't mean you're like why areyou spending half?
You're excluding them, right,yeah, why are?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
you spending half your budget talking to dads?
Yeah, like they're not.
Like they might be efficientfrom a like a monetary, but not
scalable, yeah, so why are wespending 50 of our money talking
to dads when, like, you're notgoing to grow?
Talking to dads like it's goingto be with women, because
that's, you can talk to them,directly to them, and guess what
(16:00):
a lot of women will nudge thedad into buying, sure, so talk
to who your audience actually isand what what makes sense, but
don't just like blanket, throwout there like, oh, like we're
just gonna have yeah, sayeveryone on our because I think
everyone obviously would wantthat yeah
Speaker 2 (16:20):
right.
Obviously you want your totaladdressable market to be all 350
million americans, but there'sno brand that exists that way.
Not even nike would say that.
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The other thing that I thinkthat we haven't the direction we
(17:23):
haven't gone down on theproblem with niching and then
expanding that we've seen a lotof brands really fall into is
have you heard of the?
There's a TikToker.
His account's name is Hubs Life.
Have you heard of this guy,hubs Life?
Have you guys heard of HubsLife before?
No, no, so Hubs Life.
Look him up.
H-u-b-s dot life.
(17:44):
He is this guy who built anentire TikTok audience around
the de-glamorization of, likethe hustle and bustle of
entrepreneurship.
So a lot of people on TikTokwill show their lives and how
they're entrepreneurs.
And I'm getting up at 4am andI'm da-da-da-da-da-da.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
I'm so disciplined.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, he was one of the first people to be like hey,
I have a nine to five, I wakeup and I clock in at nine
o'clock.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Is he the guy that does like the day in the life?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
He does day in the life.
He's like I take a 30 minutelunch, I walk to it, I get back
in my Hyundai Sonata, I workfrom one to five, I cook dinner
with my wife, I take my dog on awalk, and it was just that.
And he built this awesome,awesome audience like huge, huge
audience.
Okay, and it was really coolbecause at the time you had not
seen a lot of people glamorizingthe nine to five.
(18:32):
Everyone was glamorizingentrepreneurship, right, and
owning your own business onTikTok.
So he's this guy who justcreates this audience of people
who are like, oh my gosh, thisis so refreshing.
I mean, most people are notentrepreneurs, most people
actually fit the nine to fiverole, but no one was creating
content for him.
So this guy creates this day inlife content, super relatable,
(18:52):
getting tons of fans, and guesswhat happens?
He starts to make enough moneywhere he doesn't need his nine
to five job anymore.
So he turns around, tellseverybody he's kind of quitting
his job, but doesn't really sayhe's like about to become an
entrepreneur.
And he becomes an entrepreneur.
And he becomes an entrepreneurand starts creating content
(19:17):
around the day in the life of anentrepreneur, thinking that, oh
my gosh, I just and then hejust loses audience loses
everything Like he.
he is more talked about.
I mean now this is.
This is getting to be a littlebit more older news Like this is
probably about two months agothat this happened.
It got so bad that this guy hadto turn off his comments so he
(19:38):
doesn't put comments on, becausepeople just trash him.
Like there has been the biggestboycott against this guy
because he just what happenedwas he changed and flipped the
script on an audience.
So we have this kind of thoughtprocess where it's like, okay,
hey, if you start to become moreinclusive to say, hey, my, my
(20:02):
product is for everybody, mybrand is for everybody, you have
the chance of gettingcompletely lost.
But on the flip side, if you gofrom one niche to something
completely different, you havethe chance to completely lose
something you have already built.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah, yeah, of course it does.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Are you looking him up right now?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, we've seen that .
Yeah, he, uh, there's a RollingStone article about him.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, I mean every news article has picked this up
Like he.
I feel bad for the guy Cause theguy got absolutely worked over
like people were just absolutelythrottling him that's funny and
creating I mean videos that aregetting hundreds of thousands
and millions of views on, likethis is where hub's life went
wrong.
Right, feel super bad for theguy because, like he built
something so cool that he's likeI don't have to work anymore.
(20:48):
Who wouldn't take that?
You know, like all I get to dois be a content creator and edit
videos, like and make double ortriple what I was making, but
what was the like?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
yeah, that's kind of funny because nobody and this is
one of the things where hiringa consultant can be beneficial
for people you know I know, Iknow everyone wants to trash on
consultants.
Sure, but know a good marketingconsultant would have said hang
on a second dude.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
maybe don't quit it Like hey man like your, your
whole audience, your whole stickis built around the fact that
you are like them.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah, you are like a man of the people.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, the second you go, quote entrepreneur you are
no longer a man of the people.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
You're no longer part of that.
You know, like you're no longerglamorizing like the everyday
man, totally like you're runninga huge risk by saying hey,
thanks everyone, I'm anentrepreneur now, and then
everyone's like wait a second,I'm not following you for that.
Yeah, I'm following you to doyour nine to five yeah, totally
make me feel good about myselfor make me feel good about nine
(21:51):
to five.
I can't.
Whatever the reason like that'sthe ethos and he was being you
could say he's being exclusiveto people who don't have nine to
fives.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah.
So I mean, listen, let's, let's, as we wrap things up, like the
two thoughts I have, I thinkthat there has been this
movement, um, that social,social media has put into the
atmosphere that brands need tobe inclusive and if they are not
inclusive, they're, thereforethey are bad.
And there are some brands thatfall to the mob, uh, the
(22:23):
influence, you know, the socialmedia mob and, um, they sure
they take a stand, um and theybecome more inclusive, but
there's a huge, huge risk thatit hurts your marketing and can
hurt your business, right?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
There's examples of this using pop culture.
So like if you take rap,especially rap from the 80s and
90s, and like, let's like godown back to like NWA.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Like NWA and Ice Cube and all these guys like they
weren't writing songs to appealto white people.
Yeah, right, they were writingsongs specifically for their
peers.
Yeah, their group, sure.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Their communities, the black.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
American.
Yeah, that could relate totheir experiences.
Yeah, and they didn't, and theynever stopped right.
They used their specific kindof verbiage and language and
they didn't bend it all just toappeal to the bigger audience,
which would have been the whiteaudience in America right.
(23:27):
But, over time they becamemainstream, but they didn't
really change who they wereright Like.
They stayed pretty consistentLike Snoop Dogg.
I think Snoop Dogg's kind ofgone through more of like an
adult evolution, like as he'sgotten older.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
But he's still Snoop Dogg, yeah, right.
So I think sometimes you canlook at artists and say, hey,
like did Snoop sell out?
And just like sell out to talkinto his community and being who
he was and where he's from, andI don't think I would say I
don't think he has.
He just became successful.
But they stayed niche, right.
And look how big that genre got.
(24:03):
Yeah, like Kendrick Lamar isn'tmaking music for me, right?
I think that's pretty obvious Ifyou look at me you know he's
not for me, yeah, but I hearKendrick Lamar all the time,
totally.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
We'll say the same thing with Taylor Swift, right?
Taylor Swift is not creatingmusic for you yet.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Taylor.
Swift is making music forfemales yeah, usually younger
Scooming younger females Goingthrough emotions yeah, through
heartbreaks and romance andstuff.
That's who she talks to.
She's not talking to a 35 yearold dad of three yeah so she's
not excluding me.
(24:41):
Yeah, but like you could say,well, why don't you make?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
if she isn't it, yeah , yeah, I I make a song about me
.
I make a song about good dads,taylor I think there's probably
somebody could clip this podcastand make us seem like we're
yeah terribly, like you know, insocial media's world, racist.
What by what we're saying?
or or, or sexist sexist or ornot body positive, or whatever.
The point we're just trying tomake is often you have to be
(25:06):
very careful, um, when it comesto the the term inclusivity in
your marketing strategies,because sometimes, and most
times, it's very, very importantto niche down to a specific
type of person right, thegranola mom who only consumes
(25:27):
natural products Like that's aniche to somebody who might want
to buy.
You know, we've worked withpeople who sell breast milk
jewelry.
Right, like that's the type ofperson who's buying those kinds
of things.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
But does that exclude the mom who does formula, who
can't breastfeed, you know wholike?
Yes, it does, but does thatmean that she is not an
inclusive person?
No Right, it just means thatshe's is not an inclusive person
.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
No Right.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
It just means that she's narrowed down something
that somebody wants.
And the most important thing inmarketing actually isn't the
messaging, it's the audience,who then you can tailor the
messaging to.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, it's product market fit.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And you got to make sure your message matches the
market that your product fits inExactly A hundred percent.
Market that your product fitsin Exactly 100%.
That's all it is, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
So, at the end of the day, american Eagle, I give it
a massive win.
It's a massive win for whatthey did.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
It's a massive marketing win Whether it's a
long-term stay.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
No idea.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
It's 28 days later.
We'll find out.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
We'll keep giving updates on this, see, if there's
a long-term stay.
No idea, it's 28 days later.
We'll find out.
Yeah, we'll keep giving updateson this.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
There's a zombie outbreak from it yeah, like what
?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
what?
Yeah, in an intent, it was agreat marketing, marketing
decision.
Keyword marketing decisionbecause they targeted their old
audience.
That got them to where theyonce were.
Yes, which were people whocared about hot people wearing
their clothes yeah, if you'relistening to this, I'm doing
quotation marks and hot becauseobviously that is a relative
(27:02):
term.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
And I don't have any American Eagle and I will
probably never own AmericanEagle.
Yeah, but they're not talkingto me.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Yeah nor me, and I hope everyone understands what
we're trying to say here, rightLike, these are marketing wins.
We're not talking about beinginclusive in life and how you
treat other people.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
We're talking about just curating your message.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, we're just talking about how you, if you
want to succeed and get theright attention, narrowing
things down is, strategicallyand historically, the best way
to do so.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yes, but it is hard.
It is hard for certain kinds ofbrands because it's easy to get
lost in the ambiguity of acertain audience.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Which, like American Eagle, there's a lot of
ambiguity in that audience.
Yeah, but what did they say?
They were like hey, we'retargeting young people, young
people all love Sydney Sweeneynow.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, they care about that type of stuff a lot more,
right you?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
know like she's the it thing that everyone's looking
to, so let's go after her, sure.
That's kind of all they did.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, I agree, yeah, I agree, yeah, it's really not
rocket science with that.
No, niching is powerful.
Like Mark said, there's richesin the niches.
There are, yeah.
So if you're feeling like youprobably have a lot more time to
lap up before you feel like youhave to introduce a new
(28:31):
category, fair enough.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, usually people are more worried about expanding
before they should.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
It's usually a message issue.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
And not saying expansion is the wrong issue.
You don't do that.
But it's a lot harder to expandthan it is to nab a more cam
For sure, thank you guys.
This was short, quick.
Don't clip this inappropriatelyeither.
So I'm not saying that to you,nate, I'm saying that to the
(29:04):
rest of anyone else who listensto this.
All right, we'll see you guysnext week.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Unstoppable Marketer
podcast.
Please go rate and subscribethe podcast, whether it's good
or bad, we want to hear from you, because we always want to make
this podcast better.
If you want to get in touchwith me or give me any direct
(29:24):
feedback, please go follow meand get in touch with me.
I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and TikTok.
Thank you, and we will see younext week.
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