Becca Kennedy - From Academia to UX Consulting - The UX Consultants Lounge

Episode Transcript
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Kyle Soucy (00:15):
Welcome to the UX =consultants lounge.
I'm Kyle Soucy, founder ofusable interface an independent
UX research consultancy.
You can find out more about mywork and the services I offer at
my website, usable interface.
com.
I'll be your host here at thelounge where I'll be providing a

(00:35):
place for UX consultants togather, share stories, and learn
more from one another.
My guest today is Becca KennedyShe is the owner of Kennason, a
consultancy combining designresearch and content design
services.
Now, I've known Becca for awhile now.

(00:57):
And I'm so glad I had anopportunity to interview her for
this podcast because I justthink she's wonderful.
And I think more people need toknow about her.
And during this hour that wespent talking, we really covered
a lot of topics.
You're going to learn aboutBecca's journey, transitioning

(01:19):
from academia to becoming a UXconsultant, uh, how she found
her first clients, we discusseda new service she's offering
called Let's Fix It Workshops asa way to let clients get a small
taste of her services beforecommitting to a large project.

(01:40):
We also talked a lot about whento turn down work and how it can
be critical to the success ofyour business.
And during that we touched onhow to ask about budgets, which
is always hard.
We spent a good chunk of timetalking about subcontracting
through design firms, in orderto supplement our pipeline

(02:02):
whenever direct client work isslow.
And lastly, we talked aboutdisability insurance for the
self employed.
So let me tell you a little bitmore about Becca before getting
into the interview.
She's had her consultancy nowfor almost 10 years, and she's
been working in the industry forover 15 years.

(02:22):
Her career began in usabilityand human computer interaction.
Her PhD is in human factorspsychology with a focus on games
and simulations for training inhealthcare.
She started Kennason in 2015 andhas since worked with over 65
organizations to help improvetheir products and services.

(02:45):
Becca also writes a greatnewsletter called Interrobang on
everyday design.
She lives in Albany, New Yorkwith her spouse and cats.
And when she's away from herdesk, she might be walking in
the woods, reading from an evergrowing stack of books.
listening to a comedy podcast orplaying a silly video game,

(03:10):
which we will actually talk alot about in the beginning of
the interview, the love of videogames.
So with all that said, let's getto the interview.
Please enjoy Becca Kennedy.
All right, Becca.
Well, welcome to the UXconsultants lounge.

Becca Kennedy (03:28):
Thank you.
So excited.
I wish we were in like a realcozy lounge, but, um, given that
we can't be physically together,this is, I guess, the next best
thing.

Kyle Soucy (03:36):
Yeah, we can pretend, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Kyle Soucy (03:40):
Well, it's nice to have an excuse to chat with you
one on one because I feel likewe don't get a chance to do that
as often as we should, or wedon't make time for it as often
as we should.
Right.

Yeah, it's hard.
It's hard to find the time tocatch up.
So I'm excited to chat with you.

Kyle Soucy (03:57):
Yeah, I find that it's one of the perks of doing
the show.
It makes a point that I have totalk to people, which is

Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
You get to catch up with people,meet new people.
It's pretty great.

Kyle Soucy (04:10):
Yeah, and another perk, um, is that I get to do
some research on you, which mayhave otherwise seemed creepy.
But what I learned, is that youlove to talk about theme parks,
and I didn't know that.

Oh, that's hilarious.
So that means I did a good jobcontaining myself and not
bringing up like theme parkexamples every time we talk
about stuff.

Kyle Soucy (04:33):
Well, it was in one of your newsletters.
I did read about that where youtalked about Disneyland.
But what, what is your favoritetheme park or ride?

That's an interesting question because I'm
definitely a Disney theme parksperson.
And I'm excited that I'mplanning a trip to Tokyo, which
apparently has, the bestversions of that, where, the
service is excellent, and thedetails are excellent, and it's
just that level of experiencethat we don't really have, in
California or Florida anymore.
But yeah, it's about, for me,appreciating all of the, design

(05:05):
and creativity andthoughtfulness that goes into
designing these spaces that arejust meant to be like joyful for
people.
Like my whole life I'm just likefascinated by those little
things that they do to makethings really a special magical,
you know, place.

Kyle Soucy (05:20):
I feel embarrassed to admit it, but I've never been
to Disney world.

I mean that's normal, that's fine.

Kyle Soucy (05:27):
I don't know.
Is it, I feel like I'm always inthe minority, but especially now
having kids and like, weprobably have to bite the bullet
and And then everybody says,even if you're not a theme park
person, once you go, you becomeone.
Like, it's just, the magic isthere.
Undeniable.

Yep.
And I think there's like thatdesign layer too, like just
appreciating all the work thatgoes into it in like the
research too, of the servicedesign and all of that.
You know, you might have adifferent appreciation than
someone else who's not in thatworld.

Kyle Soucy (06:01):
Yeah, as a UX person, it's probably like a
rite of passage, and I know somefolks that work for Disney, and
I know they work really hard,so, yeah, I think that should be
on my list And I, also found outthat your go to recharge
activity is that you likeplaying video games.

I am definitely, I'm a Nintendo person.
Yeah, and I love playing gamesalone.
I'm not a competitive like let'sjump online and play against
people.
It's an immersion thing It'sreally similar to the theme
parks or it's appreciating thisworld that The creator's built
and like the mechanics in it andall that stuff.
Um, you know, it's a, it both assomething that surface level, I

(06:40):
just enjoy, but also like on adeeper level, it's very cool how
they did all of this and howthey thought of it and.
Came up with this experience foragain, like an experience that's
really like for joy for people.

Kyle Soucy (06:52):
I was curious to know, what's your favorite
Nintendo game?

I am definitely a zelda person I'm still playing
tears of the kingdom came outover a year ago And i'm still
like jumping in and out of itbecause I don't want to to end.
Some people are really intolike, um, like battling the
creatures and stuff.
And I'm, I'm not, I avoid them.
I'd rather just like, walkthrough the forest and collect
things.
But yeah, it's really great howthose experiences can exist and

(07:16):
people can make what they wantout of it.
It's really fascinating,actually.

Kyle Soucy (07:21):
See, that makes me nostalgic because I used to play
video games, but it's been waytoo long.
It's probably been like 16 yearsor so.
And I was really into graphic,uh, adventure like Myst or
Siberia.
There was one calledphantasmagoria that I loved.
It was like a horror adventure

Yeah.
That's dope.

Kyle Soucy (07:45):
And I know what you mean by the immersive, like I
would get lost in that world.
And I loved the sounds.
I loved the detail.
Everything.
It was really

Yeah, a lot of video game music actually is
really good to, focus to, like,to study to, or to, do some,
deep work to.
YouTube will have, like, Rainyday, like whatever the game is,
like music, um, and you want todo something like that instead
of just the straight upsoundtrack because we run into
like boss battle music and stuffand you'll be like, why am I
getting so anxious all of asudden?

Kyle Soucy (08:14):
I have to look that up because I always loved the
music from Syberia.
That was my ultimate favorite.
So I gotta look that up.

look it up too now.

Kyle Soucy (08:22):
Oh, it's good.
It's so good.
It's kind of cool to do thisresearch cause I already knew
from years of knowing you thatyou were just laid back and easy
to be around, easy to talk to,but I just had no idea how
playful you

funny.
Yeah, I think that's accurate.

Kyle Soucy (08:40):
Well, let's talk now about your business, Kennason.
So tell us a little bit about itand the services you offer.
Sure.

sure.
So my consulting company iscalled Kennason and, it is just
me, although I'll bring inpeople here and there where it
makes sense.
So Kennason offers userexperience strategy, And my
specific flavors of that Iusually say are design research
or UX research and contentdesign.
That being said, I do a lot ofdifferent things.

(09:08):
It becomes hard to specializewhen it's just like, I don't
know, just wanting to do so muchand wanting to do so many
different things.
But I think where my skills areand where I can offer the most
is really the research piece.
And then if there's a contentcomponent, Like the content
piece, whether that'sinformation architecture or, uh,
just organizing, structuringinformation, UX writing, I kind

(09:28):
of put all those thingstogether.
And I've been doing that since2015.
So I started the company in2015.
It's been almost 10 years.
And I'm still going so that's agood thing.

Kyle Soucy (09:40):
Oh, that's great.
So you're going to celebrateyour 10th anniversary

Yeah, actually it's in like a year, but I'm
starting to round up, you knowwhat I mean?

Kyle Soucy (09:49):
Yeah.

Basically a decade at this point.
Can I start saying that in myown copy?

Kyle Soucy (09:54):
Yes.
Yeah.
I think you can.
It's earned.
And so 2015.
And if I remember correctly, didit originally start solo or did
you start as a partnership?

that's such a good and interesting and funny
question.
So I started it with two otherpeople, which I think was the
right move for me at the time.
So I, at that point, I wasfairly young and I didn't really
know what What a consultingcompany or freelance business
would look like at all So when Itold a couple friends of mine

(10:28):
that I wanted to do it I had youknow, two different friends be
like cool.
I want to do it with you And Iwas like great.
I need help.
That's fine Um, so our first fewclients, you know, we we tackled
as a team and I think fairlyquickly It was kind of obvious
that I was the one who was justlike more into it and like oh I
want this to be like My life,like this is what I want to do

(10:51):
with my career.
It's less about like, oh, let'sdo like a little side hustle and
move on.
And I think the other folks wenton to do other really cool
things.
But yeah, so the name Kennasonactually is a remnant of
multiple last names because mylast name's Kennedy.
Which occasionally causesconfusion with people calling me
by the wrong last name.

Kyle Soucy (11:09):
Oh,

that's fine.
I like that.
It was a name that didn'tspecifically reference user
experience or Tech or anythingthat I would feel could
pigeonhole me in the future sothat's why I've stuck with that,

Kyle Soucy (11:23):
That brings up such a good point.
We actually had a listenerquestion, uh, and it was all
about, is it better to use yourown name or a business name when
you're naming your business?
And I think it's funny that youmentioned how you didn't want to
be, stuck if you were to name itsomething other than your name.
I kind of had the same issuewhen I was naming my business

(11:46):
where, you know, 20 years ago, Ididn't know really what I wanted
to specialize in.
I did a little wireframing, dida little research, did a little
this, a little of that.
So it was just usable interface.
I'm like, that kind of covers itall.
But now, now that I strictly doresearch, I wish it was more
descriptive because it literallycould, like you read that, it
could be copy, it could bedesign, it could be development.

(12:08):
I mean, anything goes into ausable interface.
So if I could do it over again,I might have chosen differently,
but I don't know if I would havedone my name or not.
Um, so the, so Kennason is, soKennedy you and then there were
two others and part of that istheir name or,

Exactly.
It's actually one of their lastnames.
It yeah was kind of a funnybeginning to it but I never
think about that because i'mjust like At this point people
know that as the name of thecompany like You SEO's good,
websites there, emails there.
This works out.
People don't really question it.
Um, you don't have to say whatit is, but have you thought

(12:47):
about, like, if you would changeyour name, would it be like,
Might be instead.

Kyle Soucy (12:51):
No, you know, I haven't.
Um, I haven't given it that muchthought where I would have an
alternative, but if I could doit over again, I probably
wouldn't have gone as broad.
I know people who have their,you know, last name consulting
or whatever.
And it works fine.
I just, I don't know why I wentthat route.
I think I've always wished thatI could say the name and people

(13:12):
would be like, Oh, okay.
I pretty much get what you do,but I don't know if that's even
possible anymore.
Um, cause there's so much nuanceto, to all the services everyone
provides.

Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (13:23):
with your name, I'm curious at what point in the
business did the other two kindof drop off and you become just
solo?

I don't know if I remember exactly.
I think the first person and sheended up, taking on a full time
role, as a UX designer in thehouse somewhere and, and kind of
moved on.
And I think that happened likewithin maybe a year or so.
But she did help get everythingjust kind of set up.
And I had not really worked inan agency setting before, or, an
industry setting before, so evenjust knowing Trello, Slack, like

(13:56):
just some of like the tools andprocesses that make for a
successful project, like sheintroduced to me, so at least I
was walking into client projectshaving that sort of thing set
up, whereas otherwise Iwouldn't, like if I were on my
own, I honestly did not.
Um, and then the other partner,he was around for a few years
also, and there were a fewprojects we did together, but

(14:17):
ultimately he's more of a like,I want to build a product person
and I'm more of a I want todeliver services person.
I'm not interested in likebuilding my own thing or having
a startup.
So I think that's why ultimatelyhe ended up wanting to do other
things.
And so it's been mostly me forthe duration of the business,
but exclusively me for the lastfive, six years, maybe.

Kyle Soucy (14:41):
Okay.
And when you originally started,is it the same service as you're
doing now, that mixture of UXresearch and content development
or content

at the time it was actually A lot more
usability focused.
That's more of my skills were,cause actually I came from
academia, so usability researchwas closer to what I had already
done.
And it took me a few years tojust kind of build up some more,
I think specific skills withdiscovery research, um, like

(15:12):
concept testing, like moreinnovation type stuff.
And, the content design stuffactually came a little bit
later.
Later, um, the past, maybe threeor four years, where I just, I
really enjoy doing, I'llsimplify and say like the words
for projects, and that would bewhat I would end up doing a lot

(15:32):
of times on projects, um, isfilling in and being that
person, so I made an effort togo to content design conferences
and read the books and just kindof fine tune how I thought about
that and how I offered that andhow I executed on the content
piece.
Because I find it actuallymeshes very well with the
research side of things.
Like, you know, how do we,change our messaging, for

(15:55):
example, or is our terminologyworking, or like, We need an
audit of what content exists.
That works really well withlike, well, let's do some
research and figure it out.
Let's talk to people.
Let's use the words they use.
Let's, um, you know, do somenavigation testing or card
sorting or whatever it might be.
They just kind of naturally fittogether really well.

Kyle Soucy (16:16):
Yeah, it's a great mix to have a researcher that
also does, content.
I think that's great.
And with, your background, I'moften asked questions from
people that are in academia,like, how do you transition?
And it's definitely not a worldI know, cause I do not have a
PhD at all.
I know that you do, you have aPhD in human factors,

(16:36):
psychology.
And I'd love to know, what thatjourney was from earning your
PhD to becoming a UX consultant.

So for me and you and I have actually chatted
about this before we're like theway people get into UX research
and consulting really can dependon just where and when you were
when you kind of like figured itout and made that connection and
like went for it.
So for me, I went to grad schoolfor human factors psychology,

(17:06):
like you said, so, um, if anyonelistening, Isn't sure what that
is.
Basically, it's the study of howpeople interact with technology
and interact with systems And alot of the focus with that kind
of research is reducing humanerror So a lot of times it's
very safety critical context.
Traditionally it was a lot ofmilitary stuff.
I was Doing healthcare relatedstuff.

(17:28):
But the reason I chose that isbecause, to your point earlier
about video games, a lot of theresearch that's done in Human
Factors actually is related totraining and is related to using
video games in simulations andvirtual environments, virtual
reality for training purposes.
So, When I started grad school,that was 2009.
So that was also a good time togo to grad school.

(17:50):
Anyway, because it was recessiontime, you know, you were already
a working gal at the time.
Um, but for me it kind of workedout that like I had the PhD Idea
in my head, while I was incollege.
So I did have researchexperience and stuff that,
luckily did enable me to getaccepted to a grad program and

(18:11):
go for human factors.
I'm from Albany, New York.
I went to college also in NewYork.
I moved to Norfolk, Virginia.
For grad school.
And after I got through likecoursework and qualifying exams,
which are really big deal in PhDprograms, um, I actually ended
up moving back to Albany.
So my personal life, justeverything kind of led me to

(18:34):
need more, just like a saferplace to anchor and just like
restart be somewhere where Iwanted to live.
Be near people, you know, I wasclose to and kind of get my
footing, um, and start my kindof professional life.
So I was still working on mydissertation at the time.
Um, but kind of like part timeand it took a while, but my

(18:56):
first job when I moved back toAlbany, which was kind of a
natural fit was working at auniversity, as a research staff
member in a healthcare lab.
So it was more of what I hadbeen doing in grad school.
I didn't get paid a ton.
It was not a high profileposition at all but the purpose
of that was to Start making somemoney and really just start like

(19:18):
getting to know what washappening in albany.
So while I had been Becoming anexpert basically in human
factors.
I was realizing that userexperience is really, um,
similar and more what I wasgoing for when I, when I went to
grad school, I kind of thoughtit would be a little bit more
instead of like, only like justsafety critical task based

(19:41):
stuff, I wanted to do more likeeveryday products and.
You know, improving things forpeople and making things better
for people and, and some ofthat.
So I was kind of learning aboutuser experience at the same
time.
So when I landed in Albany, Iwas like, this is my chance.
This is who I am.
I'm a UX researcher is how I'mrebranding and going to meetups

(20:04):
and kind of like finding otherpeople who are doing similar
things.
Eventually starting Keneson,leaving the academic job, and
kind of going forward fromthere.
So a lot of trial and erroralong the way, but again,
related to that time period, itwas 2014, 2015, so like, that
was a perfect time to kind ofjump into UX.

(20:25):
It was becoming recognized andbecoming valued in the tech
industry.
But it wasn't overflowingflooded with people.
There weren't a lot of folks whowere like actually skilled and,
and could, um, do that kind ofwork yet.
So, um, there were a lot of UXdesigners, I will say, but the
researchers hadn't caught upyet.
So it was actually a great timeto kind of figure it out,

(20:48):
transfer those kind of academicresearch skills to more what I
wanted to do and kind of make ithappen.

Kyle Soucy (20:55):
That's perfect.
And it was a perfect time forthat.
And you mentioned earlier that,um, you had the two partners and
you had your first, clients, howdid you find some of those first
clients?
Was it the local networking in

That's exactly right.
So again, at that time, therewas less remote work happening.
Not that it didn't exist, but itjust, I didn't know it existed
yet.
So definitely, yeah.
I was going to a ton of liketech and design and even UX
meetups in Albany.
So, um, that's how I was.

(21:31):
Getting to know people.
Uh, our first clients, werestartups.
So they're at the time was apretty thriving startup
community.
Partly because of theuniversities here and, and
stuff.
So our first projects were withclients who had, you know, Very
little budget, but that was okayat the time for me just to get

(21:51):
paid at all, to kind of like dowhat I wanted to do felt like a
gift, honestly.
And it was kind of quick anddirty research studies, um, with
them.
And I would say from there,there were What I think of now
is like a few turning points.
So I think three separate, whichis kind of turning points that

(22:14):
led to like, all right, this isa success.
So, going from the startupclients to my first state
government, Like a singleproject that was something like,
you know, 27, 000, which wasmore than I made for my salary
as a grad student, you know, oneproject, it just felt like, oh,

(22:36):
wow, like, this is amazing.
Um, and that came from, youknow, connections in the
community where there wasusability tested needed for like
a new, um, feature that, youknow.
One of the state websites waslaunching and I was the one to
do it.
Like that was amazing The secondturning point was one of my
connections locally turned intolike two other projects with

(22:58):
like locally known companies Soin that instance, it was
recognizing that There wassomebody who understood exactly
what value I bring even before Iwas really good at articulating
it You know like understood oh,here's what you do.
Like i'm involved I'm on theboard or whatever for two
companies who really need thatright now So that helped kind of

(23:22):
build things up.
And then the third turning pointwas understanding and finding
the opportunities to dosubcontracting remotely.
So I had done a little bit ofsubcontracting with like a
local, uh, web dev shop, but torecognize that there are
agencies everywhere.

(23:43):
And a lot of them are kind ofworking remotely, even at the
time, which was, you know, preCOVID.
Um, That there are opportunitiesto work on, bigger projects
with, nationally orinternationally known companies
and, work with a team on, biggerefforts was humongous for me.
And, just figuring out thosemissing pieces of, this is how
you turn it from, I can make aliving doing this to, like, oh,

(24:05):
I can do well.
Running, running a business, youknow, more so than kind of like
freelancing.
So that shift from freelancing,you know, to like, I'm a
consultant now.

Kyle Soucy (24:16):
I feel like you did a great job.
Marketing yourself locally andnot even marketing yourself just
being active right in thecommunity Which I at that time
for me, you know 2009 I was veryactive in local groups if I
wasn't part of a group I wasstarting a group and I think
that was so key to helping me toget business and ever since the

(24:41):
pandemic I just feel so sorryfor people that are trying to
get that first client Get theirbusiness up and going because I
know I depended on that a lotAnd I always thought of you when
you know when we first met Ijust thought of you i'm like,
okay She's the albany girl likeshe's on she's talking
everywhere Like you just kind ofhad your your finger on the
pulse of everything happeningthere and I thought that was so

(25:03):
smart And good to do.
I know we talked before, justrecently about doing something
like joining your local chamberof commerce and I have not done
it, but I've gotten therecommendation to do it.
And my area is, you know, whereI live is pretty rural.
And it's not like, I can'timagine that somebody is going

(25:24):
to need user research orusability testing services in
this area and be like, ah,you're the person.
And I believe you had a similar,uh, experience,

I did.
So I had some good experienceswith my city chamber of
commerce.
Um, for example, like thatstate.
Uh usability testing contract Imentioned um, I was able to use
the chamber of commerce officeas like a Because I don't I
don't have like a actual offlike I work from home I don't
have an actual office to bringpeople in But I had a spot there

(25:57):
that I just kind of likeborrowed for a week to do in
person usability testing.
Um Right.
So when we when we used to dothat a lot more often than we do
now, you know That was a benefitfor example.
Um But I struggled a bit I willsay like that subcontracting aha
moment came not from the Chamberof Commerce.

(26:20):
It was just something that Idon't think I was a good fit for
what everyone else is doingthere.
Like, it was a lot of peopledoing really great things, but
it was more about like, oh, I'mopening a store, I'm opening a
bakery, I'm, like, doing theseother types of small businesses
that weren't really, servicebased businesses.
Um, so where I hope to get,like, a little bit of education

(26:42):
there, in terms ofentrepreneurship, it didn't
quite align with, the everchanging world of consulting in
tech, right?
So, like, no one ever kind ofsuggested, like, oh, why don't
you think about joining projectsthat big agencies are doing?
Never occurred to me, didn'toccur to them, so just as an
example of just Not having a tonin common with the folks there.

(27:05):
Um,

Kyle Soucy (27:06):
Mm hmm.

kind of finding my communities elsewhere, you
know, like on Slack and stufflike that.

Kyle Soucy (27:13):
I'm you know, I'm thinking of giving it a shot
because who knows right like I'msaying probably not but maybe
it's worth it Just one year paythe dues and see what the
Chamber of Commerce has likeMaybe it does have something
like even that perk of theoffice space that could be cool
or just meeting someone younever know And I'm so desperate
to get back out there to beSocializing in groups again in

(27:36):
person that I don't know might Imight give it a whirl.
I might give it a whirl But youalso mentioned too You know
about When you're firststarting, you know,
articulating, uh, what you doand getting that elevator pitch
down, that was so hard for me.
It took a long time to getcomfortable with presenting

(27:57):
myself and just being able toclearly state what it is I do.
Because I know at that time too,UX was such a mystery.
Like nobody knew what the heckyou were talking about.
Um, but I struggled with thattoo.
I don't know why that took solong for me, but it was nice
when I could finally be like.
confident about explaining myservices.

So I think a lot of the difficulty I was running
into early on and why I didn'thave a lot of confidence early
on Is I was just talking to thewrong people You know what I
mean?
Like, you know, if it's notsomething that's relevant to
them, it's not really going toconnect so much.
Um, and that's okay.
And at this point, I've alsolearned, like, different ways of
explaining what I do based onwhat the other person does.

(28:37):
For example, the examples yougive when you talk about what
you do or the kinds of projectsor clients you've had can depend
on whatever they do and whatevermight resonate with them.
Um, but that all kind of takestime to figure out.

Kyle Soucy (28:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just try to make it relatable.
Yeah.
You also made a point to mentionthe difference, between labeling
yourself as a freelancer orconsultant.
And that actually hits onanother listener question we
had, which was, you know, how doyou decide whether to call
yourself consultant orfreelancer?

Man, I think, I think we've definitely talked
about this before.

Kyle Soucy (29:12):
Oh, yeah.
Oh, time.

I still kind of use both, again, depending on
the context.
But I think there is adifference in how people
perceive you.
So I think of a freelancer askind of an extra pair of hands.
So that comes up a lot.
I mean, especially like insubcontracting, for example,
where, you know, it might belike, Oh, we're running this,
Bigger project and we needsomeone to come in and run two

(29:36):
sets of 10 interviews orwhatever and like you don't
necessarily have a say in howit's done or And maybe you don't
want to you just want to like doWhatever's already been planned
just execute on it and there'snothing wrong with that at all
But I think consulting is moreabout having a point of view And
coming in as, a collaborator, sothat is something that I tell

(29:58):
people in early conversations ifI'm talking to, prospects.
Is that I work as more of aconsultant than a freelancer, so
that means, you really get athought partner if you bring me
in.
Like, I do want to collaborate.
I want to hear where you'recoming from, what you've already
done, what your priorities are.
Um, and I can kind of adapt andlike figure out what makes

(30:20):
sense, what's most efficient,what'll help you get the answers
you need and help you look good.
Like I want to come in and bethat helper in a way that's like
very productive.
Um, and comes from a place ofexpertise.
So not to say freelancers aren'tthat, but I think there can be a
perception difference in howpeople think about you based on

(30:41):
how you describe yourself.

Kyle Soucy (30:44):
Yeah.
And, when we had thisdiscussion, you were the very
first person that I talked to.
I'm like, I'm thinking of doingthis podcast.
I don't know if it's crazy.
And you were awesome aboutsupporting me and encouraging me
to do it.
And at that time I was like, Ithink it's going to be
freelancers lounge.
Yeah.
I think that's what it's goingto be.
And it's bounced back and forthso much.
And then I ended up doingconsultants for pretty much the

(31:05):
reason that you It's thatdifference between offering the
strategy, uh, versus just doingstaff augmentation work, which
like you said, is, is still goodand still needed.
But there's just a differencethere.
But I've often said call meeither, whatever, um, but there

(31:26):
is a

There definitely is, I think.
I'm also called a contractorsometimes.
That's okay, that's fine.
Um, you know, that won't be howI introduce myself.
But internally, that might behow they me, and that's fine

Kyle Soucy (31:39):
thanks.
See, contractor for me is hard.
Oh my gosh, I kind of get alittle like, my back gets a
little straight and like, I'mnot a contractor.

like, how dare you?
Because usually it's, it'susually full time.

Kyle Soucy (31:50):
right.
It's the 40 hour a week, uh, W 2contract.
That's, that's where I'm, wantto make the distinction, you
know?

yeah, that's fine.

Kyle Soucy (31:58):
Yeah,

I also always say that too.
Like I think in my earliestconversations with prospects, I
say, well, I'm usually workingon more than one thing at a
time.
So I don't, you know, work withone individual client or
project.
Like, that's just not really howI work.
Important to kind of, like, setup that expectation up front.

Kyle Soucy (32:22):
Yeah, that boundary, that expectation, absolutely.
Yeah.
Well one thing I wanted to talkabout was, a service that you've
recently added, on your websitecalled Let's Fix It Workshops
and I was wondering if you couldtell us more about

I would love to, yeah.
So, I started offering thosemaybe a little over a year ago.
And it was just a realization Ihad that, like, I think there
was something missing in how Iwas My services.
So the let's fix it workshop,um, what they are is really
focused work sessions, withclients.

(32:59):
I would say really it's aimed atnew to me clients.
So it's like a focus workingsession to collaborate on, A
specific issue they might behaving.
So UX issue, we know we need todo research, but we don't even
know where to start.
So it's really thinking of thatlike step zero that I know a lot
of organizations, uh, are inwhen it comes to like, not even

(33:21):
knowing where to go or what todo or what to ask for from a
consultant.
So I frame it three ways.
Let's fix research.
Let's fix content.
Um, and let's fix usability andthey're meant to be contained.
Tactical problem solving.
So I called it, let's fix itbecause it's collaborative.
Like, Hey, let's do it and let'sfix it.

(33:43):
Meaning like, let's come up withsome stuff that you can kind of
do right away to smooth thingsout for the users of your
product or service.
So it's about efficiency.
I really want people to walkaway from that with things they
can do fixes they can makeimmediately, but with an eye
toward longer term.
Uh, strategy, like what theymight do if they were to

(34:05):
continue working with me, forexample So yeah, for me, I
thought I'd had so manyconversations with clients that
are potential clients that neverreally went anywhere.
Cause we just, it would take areally long time, a lot of back
and forth to even figure outwhat they needed or how we could
structure an engagement.
So this is a way of taking thatdiscovery piece.

(34:25):
Which you can build into alarger project if that works for
you, but I separated it outbecause I think you know Even if
that's all a client does it's alow Financial commitment for
them It's a low time effortcommitment for me and at least
they have that starting pointand if they decide to work with
me Awesome.
If not, we can both be at leasthappy with what we have done

(34:46):
with that.

Kyle Soucy (34:47):
And I think that's an interesting framing of it
because it's not just scoping,but it's also letting them walk
away with some actionabletakeaways.

Yes, exactly.

Kyle Soucy (34:58):
And how long are the sessions, for

I aim to do about two hours.
I've done 90 minutes, justdepending on the context.
But it really is, there's somepre work involved.
So I will have like a couplecalls and just get some context
and ask participants.
And I like to keep it small too,so I, like, five people's great.
Like, whoever those, like, keystakeholders are, I'll send out

(35:22):
a form beforehand that asks, Um,if that makes sense.
And then kind of like discuss itin aggregate in a workshop that
we do together and we do somelike sticky note stuff or
whatever, just to kind ofprioritize issues.
I had one organizationparticipate who they knew they

(35:45):
had, it was like an upcomingconference or meeting, I forget
exactly what it was, butbasically they knew they were
going to have a bunch of their,users together at an upcoming in
person event and they wanted tohave a survey ready with a QR
code, and like announce it andstuff and that whole workshop
was about narrowing downeverything they thought they

(36:06):
wanted to learn from a singlesurvey into what makes most
sense for you to keep it simple,match the context, have people
actually like finish answeringit, and give you something
that's usable information forwhatever the exact next thing
is.

Kyle Soucy (36:19):
And how have, the let's fix it workshops been,
with getting new projects oreven getting people to retain
your services for other things?

love to do more of it But I will say so far it
has been helpful in just gettingpeople through the door so where
a conversation might have justnot really gone anywhere because
maybe we couldn't figure out away to Set up a bigger project
to help them or they weren'treally totally bought in Uh, or
couldn't get whoever manages themoney to buy in it's just You An

(36:52):
easier, again, like lower stakesway of like getting a new
client.
Um, and hopefully leading tomore, but sometimes that's kind
of a longer term play, so we'llsee how it keeps going.
It's been an experiment, butI'm, I am happy with it.
Cause I also enjoy doing it.
It's fun to learn new things andreally kind of problem solve in
that way.

Kyle Soucy (37:12):
Well, I think it's brilliant, you know, from a
business perspective, I learnedabout it when you posted on
LinkedIn.
Um, you said, Hey, I've gotthese, let's fix it workshops.
And I was like, Oh, what a smartway to, to package this up, to
take a smaller bite.
If someone's not ready for ameal, you know, and to just to
get an engagement started withyou.
So I thought that was great.

love that small bite metaphor.
Cause that's exactly right.

Kyle Soucy (37:39):
Yeah Well, thank you for sharing that because I think
that's helpful that might helpsome others too that are
thinking of Doing something likethat a smaller engagement to get

Yeah.
I think it's often hard forresearchers specifically to kind
of like package our stuff.
I've seen designers do it well.
For example, like, it can workreally well for people to have a
set, like, here's how I dothings for this set price, this
is what you get.
With research, it's, you know,So hard because Every context is

(38:11):
totally different Um, and that'swhat I always say too with
client work.
For me.
It's not cookie cutter It's notone size fits all it's about
what methods work, you know foryour Particular problem areas
your specific researchquestions.
Um your budget like all of thatis just so different or what
research have you already donewhere are you starting with this

(38:32):
like there's a lot that goesinto You Scoping and pricing a
project.
So to try to create packages,for most of it doesn't really
work.
But I think yes, for thisinitial, like discovery, small
bite, let's work something out,um, that you might be dealing
with that seems like it workspretty well.

Kyle Soucy (38:51):
And it's a good segue to the other thing I
wanted to talk to you about,which is how you choose to take
on projects or say no toprojects because you wrote a
great article for a smashingmagazine a few years ago about
when to say no.
And I really loved in yourarticle, you, you put it so
beautifully where you said,saying no at the right times can

(39:14):
be just as critical to thesuccess of your business as
saying yes.
So could you share some of yourtop tips with us for when it's
appropriate or probably best tosay

Yes.
And I have to say, I know it'sso hard to say no to stuff
sometimes because, I mean, firstof all, like we have to make a
living.
We have to, you know, keep thelights on.
Sometimes you need work and thatkind of shifts things to where
you might say no to things thataren't great, but you got to
just do it to connect the dotsto the next thing.

(39:44):
But I learned, and I'm sureyou've experienced and other
consultants have experiencedthat, if you say yes to
something that you don't feelgreat about, you'll resent it.
And that could be because it'sjust not a fit for your skills.
Um, you know, early on I wouldhave people asking me to do UX

(40:07):
design work and I'm like, I'mnot really a good designer, you
don't really want me to do that.
And I could have said yes tothose things and just been like,
eh, well, here you go, it's okayish, but you know, that doesn't
make sense.
But that could also apply tolike a research project that's
maybe usability testing and youdon't do usability testing Like

(40:28):
technically you could figure itout.
But if it's something you don'teven want to do like maybe just
Offer it to somebody else.
He would be a better fit.
It could also just not be a goodfit for your schedule.
So when We're in the feast eraof our feast or famine ever
ongoing cycle Sometimes we wantto say yes to things because

(40:49):
it's just like oh, this seemsreally cool Even though my
plates already full I can makeit work.
That's a

Kyle Soucy (40:56):
Yeah, I've been there.

and That's it You know, that can be really hard to
say no or to, you know, pass iton to a friend or whatever, but
ultimately, I would never wantto be in a situation where I do
a bad job on a project.
Because I've just stretchedmyself too thin or have to rush
or just make awful mistakes orsomething.
That's just not worth it.

(41:19):
So that's another piece of it.
And also, if the budget of theproject is not good, like
sometimes those are the easiestones to say no to, but sometimes
not.
If you're like, Oh, this doesseem like interesting and I want
to help them, but they would bepaying me like a quarter of my
usual rate.
You would quickly start toresent things that otherwise you

(41:39):
wouldn't.
Like every new email would belike, what do you want now?
Aren't I done

Kyle Soucy (41:44):
Yeah, the resentment would be there.

Um, so yeah, I personally have a, Checklist
that I created.
So when I am consideringprojects, I will take a look at
that and be like, all right Ilike a hell.
Yeah is like if seven or more ofthese things are true A probably
yes as if like five or more aretrue.
And if it's less than that don'ttake it unless like I really

(42:07):
need it kind of stuff.
So I mean everyone's checklistcould be different, but for me
it is like is it in an industryI enjoy like for me that's
entertainment, gaming, wellness,or stuff I would feel good about
like sustainability stuff.
Does it pay a rate that would beequivalent to an hourly rate?
That's what I want to get.

(42:28):
Is it with people I enjoyworking with?
Cause that plays like a hugerole.
You know, um, so stuff like thatwhen I'm considering
opportunities, cause I, I'm surea lot of other people do, but
like, I get really excited aboutlike new possibilities and like,
I want to say yes right away,but if you take a beat, take a
night, think about it, likesometimes you'll realize, all

(42:50):
right, that could be cool, butit's not ideal.
So.
I will pass on that.
No.
Mm

Kyle Soucy (42:56):
that you have a checklist, an actual checklist,
because I, I don't, and I thinksometimes without having that
listed out in front of you andliterally checking them off,
counting them up, is it reallyworth it?
Because sometimes you do, youjust get excited about the idea
of something and you forgetabout, Oh, well, it's not really
working out in these areas.
And, um, I think that that'shelpful.

(43:19):
And you mentioned, uh, theproject schedule.
I find that a lot of peopledon't realize that They can't
book themselves really 40 hoursa week with client work.
You, you have to leave time inyour week for business
development and outreach or elseyou are going to have a dip.
You're going to have a slowperiod, right?

(43:39):
You can't always be doing, onlybe doing, um, development and
outreach when you're slow.

hmm.

Kyle Soucy (43:45):
Uh, so you got to build that into your week.
So I think that's, that's agreat point.
I do have a question aboutbudget, cause this is something
that is important.
Something we always face, andit's so hard, you need to know
the budget, right, in order toscope appropriately to, you
know, propose something that'swithin it.
Uh, but it's oftentimes veryhard to get the budget from the

(44:08):
prospective client.
How do you go about this?
Do you have any tips for how toget them to share the budget
with

It's always, you get better and better at it the
more you practice, of course.
I think sometimes asking, likeIs there an amount that's been
approved for this budget that Ishould know about?
That does two things.
That asks, is there an amount,is there a budget, and has it
been approved?
Because you want thatinformation.

(44:36):
And maybe the person you'retalking to hasn't even
necessarily done their homeworkyet.
And they don't know where themoney would be coming from.
And they want your proposalfirst.
And ask for the money basically.
But you kind of want to avoidthat situation if you can.
So that's a question that worksout okay.
Often they'll say, Alright, wellwe want to see what you come up
with.
You know, uh, we, we don't knowhow much it costs.

(44:58):
Let us know.
And, um, that usually doesn't gothe best either because usually
the number they have in mind islower than whatever you give,
but in those,

Kyle Soucy (45:06):
That's the answer I loathe.
I cannot stand that answer, butyou get it all the time.

exactly.
But one thing I'll do if Ireally can't get.
any kind of numbers from them inconversation.
I'll put together a proposalthat has three different
options, and the most appealingone, the one that I am actually
recommending, is going to be thehighest one, you know, but I'll
be like, all right, but if yourbudget's less than this, you

(45:32):
know, Here's what we would cutout of everything we talked
about.
If you want it even less, likeyou get a very like bare bones
version of that, that might workfor you.
That's okay.
But I think seeing the optionscan help too to understand like
what they're actually gettingfor the money, right?
I also really hate when this hashappened a few times where you

(45:55):
give your project fee And thenthey come back and say, how much
is that an hour?
Cause that's really what youwant to avoid is that like
trading time for moneytransactional thing.
And a lot of times that's theway the client's thinking about
it, but that really does notserve us,

Kyle Soucy (46:12):
Right.
Right.

and even

Kyle Soucy (46:15):
What do you say in response?

I really try not to give a number.
I really try to say that, like,the price is based on the effort
and the value and I work veryquickly.
So just that kind of stuff.
And sometimes that works.
Sometimes they really just needa number, especially actually
for subcontracting through anagency.
And that's how they bill theirclient is hourly.

(46:37):
It's like, well, you can'tnecessarily get around that.
So I'll try to give the high endof my hourly rate, right?
Like I'm not trying to cut you adeal or something, I'm just
That's how much it costs.
If we're doing this hourly, ifI'm tracking my time, that's how
much it's going to cost.

Kyle Soucy (46:52):
To the budget or the question that you ask, I think
that's pretty brilliant.
So asking them, is there abudget and has it been approved?
I love that because who wants toadmit that they are working
without a budget, that theydon't have a budget?
Nobody does, right?
I am actually going to use that.
I have never thought to say,That second line of, has it been

(47:16):
approved?
Um, I think that's great.
Cause typically I'm just askingwhat's your budget.
And then I get that response oflike, Oh, well, you know, we
don't really, you know.
We'd just want to see what youcome up with and, you know,
don't, don't be held back bythat.
And it's like, no, I need toknow because you're immediately
going to come back with stickershock.
And then I'm finally going toget an idea of your range.

(47:37):
So let's skip that and get rightto it.
I'm going to put a link to thearticle on the show notes for
everyone because you, you had areally great example of how you
decline work nicely, butassertively, which I thought was
really nice.
So I'm going to put that in theshow notes for people to look at
because I do have a hard timesaying no, and I find it helpful

(48:01):
just to have, almost like atemplate for how to do it in a
way that doesn't leave them highand dry, still gives them a
feeling that you're helping, butyou're just not taking on the
work.
So I thought that was well done.

it's, yeah, that's, can be hard to do.
Sometimes you think you're clearand you're not, but I think
saying thank you so much for theopportunity.
This isn't going to work rightnow.
This is not, you know, a fit forthe type of work I'm trying to
do right now or my schedule orwhatever is great and then I
like to if it makes sense justlike offer like but I can Share

(48:33):
the opportunity with others whomight be a better fit if you
want help doing that or if trulyit's like a scheduling issue
Just say unfortunately i'mbooked up right now, but I would
love to work on this with you inthe future So if things change
in your timeline or if somethingelse comes up, please reach out
like being clear about what thenext steps are I think is good

(48:54):
too.
People don't get upset.
Usually I had like one person belike, I've never had anybody in
all my years say no to ameeting.
And I was just like, all right.

Kyle Soucy (49:05):
Really?

Cause I just,

Kyle Soucy (49:07):
Wow.

the, the product was not a fit for something I
wanted to do.
And I was very polite and clearand didn't drag them along.
And I was just like, no, thankyou.
It's like never in all my yearsof business.
Have I had someone say no to ameeting?
I was like, well, that's toobad.

Kyle Soucy (49:23):
Yeah, good for you.
That's surprising.
Well that Yeah, right thatinteraction tells you a lot that
you did the right thing turningit down.
Wow You never know what you'regoing to come up against

Yeah.
But overall, like people arejust people.
They just want to know so theycan make their next decision.

Kyle Soucy (49:41):
Yeah And you mentioned a couple times now
about subcontracting and I know,you know, over the years we've
talked with each other a lotabout subcontracting through
larger design firms and we dothis, uh, in order to supplement
our pipeline whenever directclient work is slow and I just
like to discuss that a littlemore deeper, now for our

(50:04):
listeners.
Let me start, I guess, bydefining subcontracting, and let
me know if you agree with this.
So, Um, with subcontractingthrough a larger design firm,
you still have control over whenand how you work.
You create your own schedule,they work around it, but the
number of hours and, or thescope of the work is really

(50:26):
defined by that larger firm.
And if you're in the US, youwould still be considered 1099.
Uh, this is not a WCO.
To contract where you'recommitting to being on site or
even at someone else's disposalduring a set schedule Becca
would you agree with thisdefinition?

I think that's exactly right.
Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (50:48):
And what are the key benefits and drawbacks of
subcontracting through a largerdesign firm for you?

Yeah.
It's interesting.
As you were explaining that, I'mlike, it really is like having
two clients at once.
Like the, the agency is yourclient and the end client is
your client and you're, you'rekind of delivering to both.
Um, so benefits, I mean, likeyou said, it's great to fill in
gaps and kind of supplementstuff we're doing when those

(51:15):
opportunities come along.
I actually think a big, bigbenefit for me is working with a
team.
So although like I'm kind of aindependent person by heart,
like across my life, I like myalone time and I like doing my
own thing.
I also like people.
But the opportunity to work witha team of people on a project If

(51:36):
they're good, people to workwith is amazing to be like jam
on stuff together and come upwith ideas And get feedback on
Your piece and give feedback ontheir piece.
So a lot of times subcontractingfor me like a project team might
be like A project manager, likea designer, um, maybe a writer,

(51:57):
maybe a, um, business designer,so you all come with your own
expertise and you can actuallywork together on stuff.
Sometimes you're the only onesubcontracting, so they're like
an existing dynamic that you'rejumping into, sometimes
everyone's.
A consultant and that's greattoo, but I actually really like
that aspect of it of working asa team and working toward Those

(52:21):
deliverables together.
It's almost like the feeling Igot in high school of just like
oh like we're all putting onthis musical and we're moving
toward like Opening night andjust that kind of energy can be
cool as long as it's notstressful.
So I think that's A benefit likealso just working and learning
from other people and then maybewhat's more obvious as a benefit

(52:41):
is not having to deal with allof the Getting the project and
all the client facing stuff Umall those back and forth emails
like usually that's not on yourplate.
You're just doing your expertpiece Of the engagement, right?
Does that, is that how youusually experience it too?

Kyle Soucy (53:00):
Yeah.
So you don't own that clientrelationship.
They do.
And in some ways it's kind oflike a bummer because I'm not
quote unquote growing mybusiness because I'm not adding
that client to my client list.
But I mean you have to look atgrowth like you, we, we gain so
much experience, all theprojects that we do.
And sometimes they work on somereally great brands, some great

(53:22):
juicy stuff that we may have.
not be able to get on our own,um, or not be able to work with
such a great team on, like youmentioned.
So I agree that that's adefinite benefit as well.
Downside can sometimes be likeyou mentioned, a lot of them are
time and materials, you know,it's, it's hourly, it's rare
that I'm able to go in fixedproject.

(53:42):
That's definitely what I prefer.
So that can be a little bit, Itcan feel a little bit like a
grind because it's usually alittle chaotic.
You know, sometimes agency work,you're just doing a lot of, um,
I don't, I always use theanalogy of just like running
with scissors in your hands andthat's not too bad.
Always the case, but it's alwaysa tight time frame.
It feels like and usually you'rejuggling other things along with

(54:03):
it Um, so in that way it cansometimes be hard, but I was
curious.
How do you balance your ownclient work with projects?
Along with Some of thesubcontracting work that you're
doing.
How do you make sure neither onegets neglected?

is so tricky actually, because although like
we've chatted about, it's notthat we go into a subcontract
saying like, I'm available foryou 40 hours a week, like I'm
your temporary employee.
Like that's not how that shouldbe.
And if that's what they want, Iwould probably not want to take
that project.
Um,

Kyle Soucy (54:37):
tell them tell them to get a contractor, right?

yeah, exactly.
Um, I think as much as, like,with the agency or firm you're
working with, like, gettingthings on the calendar is so
important.
And some agencies are so goodabout this anyway, like, if
you're expected to be at dailystand ups.
By the way, I love when they'relike we have daily stand ups
come to the ones you can come toif not That's okay because it

(55:02):
recognizes that like, all right,you're not like literally here
every second.
Um, But like get those on thecalendar if you are running
research like running interviewsor testing sessions like getting
those days on the calendar It'ssuper important because usually
with subcontracting it's likehere's the weeks we have set
aside We're gonna have theclient listening in or whatever.

(55:23):
It's just more, you don't haveso much control over spreading
them out like I like to do orstuff like that, but blocking
those days off is great becauseI won't really schedule other
stuff on research heavy weeksbecause I know I'm going to be
tired.
I know I'm going to be likecommitted to this one priority
for a few days.
So that really helps a lot, butI think it also can be easy to

(55:47):
get into that flow and likegoing through the motions with
your subcontract, cause it doesfeel a little bit more like a
job.
With, you know, co workers andstuff, um, but you're right, you
have to remember that, like,alright, I have to keep going
with my stuff, too, I have tokeep having my meetings, with
potential clients, I have to,not let my client work fall

(56:09):
behind, Then we're in a bad spotif, you know, we don't have our
own clients to go back to oncethis engagement's over.
So I have learned that the hardway in the past where I just got
too comfortable, subcontracting,like serial subcontracting,
right.
So like project after

Kyle Soucy (56:26):
Mm hmm

And when that dried up, I realized, Oh no,
like I actually don't have otherstuff at the moment.
So it happens, you know, it's,it is really hard.

Kyle Soucy (56:36):
Like subcontracting.
I'm so, so grateful for it.
And I never want to feel likeI'm annoyed by it or anything
like that because it's whatkeeps the pipeline full a lot of
times when Client work is dry,which it can be.
I i've never been one of thosepeople that can be booked back
to back year after year likethere's going to be slow periods

(56:58):
And it's nice to haverelationships partnerships with
agencies that can you knowHopefully stars align and we can
work together from time to timeand keep that going But at the
same time I will admit when youlook back at your year and it's
more subcontracting than directclient work.
For me personally, I'm kind oflike, oh, I want, I want more
direct client work thansubcontracting.

(57:18):
But it's like, at the same time,I almost don't even wanna say
that out loud because I wouldnever want the subcontracting to
completely go away

it's an okay balance.
I, I probably ended up doingabout 50 50.
Um, and of course we've talkedabout this, but like last year,
2023 was like the worst for me.
It was like my worst businessyear.
It was so hard.

Kyle Soucy (57:40):
right there with you.
Yep.
Mm-Hmm.

some, like I, I made, More connections with more
agencies than I had beforebecause I was just like, well,
this is great.
They still have some work comingin and by the way like marketing
agencies.
So when we were seeing a lot ofum You know tech layoffs and ux
people getting laid off andcontent people getting laid off
the marketing folks are stillgoing So I started doing a

(58:06):
little bit more like marketingrelated research subcontracting
where it's really like I don'tthink about it much differently,
but the money comes from themarketing departments and the
marketing agencies.
So just a side note, that'ssomething that ended up working
out for me to kind of getthrough a slower time.

Kyle Soucy (58:27):
Oh, that's interesting.
And it is, market research, UXresearch.
There are so many transferableskills there.
We are going after differentinformation, but, uh, it's still
super interesting.
Yeah.
So I'd like to jump to acompletely different topic now.
That seems so random, but, Ithink it's needed.
A while ago, you had mentionedto me shopping around for

(58:50):
disability insurance.
And at the time, I thought thatwas so wise.
You know, as a self employedperson, we all should have this
coverage.
And I'm Super embarrassed toadmit that I still don't have
it, which is crazy.
I have two kids.
I am 20 years in business Whydon't I have disability
insurance?

(59:10):
We'll discuss but I'm hopingthat This discussion will serve
as a good reminder to myself andto the listeners to make sure
you have coverage So if youcould fill us in just on your
insurance shopping experienceand just tell us what you ended
up getting

Yeah, okay.
So I'm kind of a nerd about likefinance stuff.
And I think that came from like,I was a grad student for a
really long time, which means Imade like extremely little
money.
And I spent a lot of time justlike reading finance blogs and
stuff.
And so when I started a businessand wasn't making a lot of money
right away, that wasn't too bad,but I, I always felt like, okay,

(59:48):
well, when I have money, I knowwhat to do with it.
So, I do have.
short term and long termdisability.
And I ended up doing after alittle bit of research and
everyone should do their ownresearch.
Cause it's different dependingon where you live.
And what might be available nowmight be different than it was a
few years ago Um, but for longterm disability, I have that

(01:00:11):
through freelancers union.
Which they are Located in newyork city, but it's not only for
new yorkers.
Basically, they offer disabilityinsurance and other kinds of
insurance, too, Where basicallyon the policy, I think they're
listed as You Your employer andit doesn't mean they're your
employer.
It just means that's how aninsurance policy has to be set

(01:00:33):
up um Yeah, so but the insuranceitself is through guardian which
is like very legit That happensto be also the company I use for
life insurance So I know it'sjust a company and they're
basically a vendor for guardian,but it's a way to Get that at
It's very low cost, really.

(01:00:53):
I mean, 30 or 40 a month, and solong term disability doesn't
necessarily, replace yourincome, if something should
happen to you, but it wouldlikely pay more than, federal
benefits would, and it does, um,Correspond to your income to a
point it gets capped.
But basically it's I think twothirds maybe of your income Um,

(01:01:17):
it's supposed to cover so ofcourse that's cap So if you make
more than like their maximum,you're still making that top
amount but it's yeah affordableand for me, I mean being someone
who financially contributes tomy household in a big way it
just Added a little bit of peaceof mind for me that like Really,
I'm not investing a lot there,but it would help so much if,

(01:01:40):
something were to happen and Iwasn't able to work long term,
you know?

Kyle Soucy (01:01:44):
Yeah, yeah, I'm in that camp of when I first heard
you talk about it, I wasAssuming that social security
disability insurance, and forthose of us in the U.
S., that's our federal,disability program.
Uh, you know, why, why would aself employed person need to buy
disability insurance if theyhave paid into social security?

(01:02:05):
And I didn't realize that.
Until you mentioned it.
I still can't believe it.
Um, that you need more.
That it's not going to besufficient most likely to
replace even a majority of yourself employed income.
Um, and then that also like theeligibility requirements, the
waiting period, there's a lot toit.
And I didn't realize that youcould get Even additional

(01:02:28):
riders, uh, supplementalinsurance if you wanted to like
to cover, things like retirementprotection, like replacing the
retirement contributions youmade while you were working or a
student loan rider, you know,make payments towards your
student loans so that you knowwhy you couldn't work like all
these things that SSI is notgonna do for you.
So I'm, I was so grateful whenyou mentioned it cause I was

(01:02:51):
really in the dark about that.

Becca Kennedy (01:02:53):
Yeah.
I mean, I don't know why anyonewould know, just know that,
like, it's just not like itwould talked about or like
readily available.
And then in addition to that, Ihave short term disabilities.
So that's something that wouldkick in sooner.
Um, I think like 90 day, Idon't, I don't know, 60, 90
days, something like that.
And that I have bundled throughmy state.

(01:03:15):
So with the New York stateinsurance fund, it's an
offering.
And by the way, all of this isvery us specific.
There are people

Right.
Yeah,

just like that sounds like a nightmare.

that are laughing at us right now.
I know it's horrible.
Yeah.

So through New York state, I have short term
disability and paid family leavebundled together.
That's how they offer it.
So that, it's a few hundreddollars a year, but that does
cover, and this is stuff thatemployers will do for you
sometimes if you work there as abenefit, but that covers short
term injury and that kind ofthing, but also paid family
leave, which can be caretaking.

(01:03:55):
for a sick family member or,giving birth and, basically
parental leave.
So I'm planning on having achild.
I have that insurance in placebecause I want to get at least
some parental leave.
Again, it's capped.
It doesn't totally cover myincome, but it would give me
like a few months of just like,I can get a check, you know, um,

(01:04:17):
and get a little bit of incomewhile I'm Taking care of a child
or, in the event I'm taking careof a family member, that stuff,
it helps, right?
So it's not gonna completelycover As much money as you'd be
bringing in if you were sittingat your desk and working but
like it is something and I thinkEvery little bit can help so
that we're not draining oursavings every time we have to

(01:04:39):
deal with something in life

That's so fantastic.
It's wonderful to have that carein place for when that time
comes.
And it's so great that you didthat.
And I hope that this helps otherpeople too, to get that in
place.
It will help me.
I am going to do it.
I promise.

Yeah, unfortunately, like all this
stuff does cost money and that'sanother reason why we have to
like charge fair prices for ourwork.
Cause we're not just taking homean hourly rate and we get to
keep it.
Like a lot of that goes to taxesand then a lot of that goes to
our retirement savings and our,you know, insurances and stuff
like that.
Because we don't, we're our ownemployer.

(01:05:18):
So just something to keep inmind.
It's all related to, uh,Charging what you're worth, you
know,

Exactly.
Well, what I'd like to do now iswrap up with just some rapid
fire questions.
First one is if you had todescribe UX consulting in one
word, how would you describe it?

juggling,

Yeah, that's a good one.
So

which, let me say, that's what I like about
it.
I think a lot of us can relateto just having like a ton of
interest and being excited bynew ideas and new things and
switching gears and meetingpeople.
It's just energizing.
If it's not maybe this isn't thecareer for you.

Right.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And that is I think so accurate.
It is a juggle and a hustle andyou have to Yeah.

You have to enjoy it.

Yeah and what's the best piece of business advice
you've ever received?

I think there's two.
One's very tactical, but havinga separate bank account for your
tax money is very helpful.
I would lose track and not dowell if I didn't just
immediately put, you know, thatpercent of money into this whole
separate account.
Uh, like a high yield savings,whatever you can do to get a
little bit of interest on that.

(01:06:37):
Just set that away and don'tspend it.
But I think also For businessadvice, it also can be business
owner advice, right?
This is something I talk aboutin therapy, which is keeping
perspective on why you'rerunning the business for
yourself, what do you actuallycare about?
Like, why are you even doingthis?
Because it can be easy to getpulled in directions and not

(01:06:58):
really think too much about itand go for more money and this
and that.
But for me, I run a businessbecause I want to have control
and I want flexibility and Iwant freedom.
So when things start going inthat direction where I'm not
feeling those things and there'stension, like, it's not about
the bigger clients and thebigger contracts and The higher

(01:07:20):
revenue for the year for me.
It's just about balancingeverything.
Remind yourself of what you'redoing right and check in and
readjust as needed.

I love that.
And lastly, what consultingresources have been most helpful
for you?
Uh, whether it be books,podcasts, coaches, articles.

I love The book design is a job by mike montero.
So that's been around a while Imean the first edition came out
more than 10 years ago.
So i'm sure a lot of folks haveread it There is an updated
version.
Which I bought the zine versionof I think directly You

Me

From him online Which I love I think he just
like lays things out in a waythat is so no bs and just so
like Here's how you write aproposal so that there's no
surprises to the client.
You've set everything up in away Here's how you negotiate how
you remember that companiesdon't care about you have to

(01:08:22):
care about you, you know, likeit's we do this stuff because we
love doing it but We got to payour bills, you know?

I think he's brilliant.
I think Mike Montero, just lookup anything that he's written.
It's, it's worth reading.
Um, did you get your little barof soap with your zine too?

Yes.

Yeah.

I did.

it's on like newspaper paper.
Yes.
I thought that was cute.
And, everybody can check outBecca's consultancy at kenneson.
com.
That's K E N N A S O N.
And I will put a link in theshow notes.
She has a great newsletterexploring everyday design called
interrobang, which I didn't evenknow what an interrobang was

(01:09:07):
until reading it.
Apparently it's the exclamationpoint question mark together.
Is that right?
That's called an interrot bang,that

right.

Yeah, I thought that was so cool.
I'm like, I didn't know that wasa thing.
But I love all of yourreflections.
It shows how you're a greatwriter and it just shows your
love of just content.
And I love your musings about.
Reflection of design.
She has a great piece on thePizza Hut experience in the 90s.
And, you know, I mentionedDisney before too.

(01:09:39):
Just really good stuff to read,fun stuff.
So please check that out.
And Becca, thank you so muchagain for taking the time out of
your day to share your wisdomwith us.
It was just awesome to catch upwith you.

Thank you, Kyle.

All right, take care.
All right.
That wraps up this episode.
Thanks for joining me.
So do you have a topic or aquestion that you would like us
to explore on a future episodeof the UX consultants lounge?
Perhaps there's an anonymousconsulting story you want to
submit.

(01:10:12):
If so, click on the link in theshow notes to submit your story
or question from the podcastwebsite.
Until next time, keep thatconsultancy going.
I can't wait to have you back inthe lounge for our next episode.

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Becca Kennedy - From Academia to UX Consulting

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Becca Kennedy - From Academia to UX Consulting