Christine Perfetti - Blending UX Consulting with a Mission-Driven Passion Project - The UX Consultants Lounge

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kyle Soucy (00:15):
Welcome to the UX consultants lounge.
I'm Kyle Soucy, founder ofUsable Interface an independent
UX research consultancy.
You can find out more about mywork and the services I offer at
my website, usableinterface.com.
I'll be your host here at thelounge where I'll be providing a

(00:35):
place for UX consultants togather, share stories, and learn
more from one another.
Today's episode is a special onefor me, both personally and
professionally.
If you've been in the UXindustry for a while, especially
as a consultant, you may havefound yourself asking some big

(00:57):
questions lately.
Questions like, is this stillthe work I wanna be doing, or am
I still fulfilled by this pathor is it time to pivot?
These are not easy questions andthey've been coming up more and
more in our field, especially inthe wake of industry shifts,

(01:21):
layoffs, and a more uncertainmarket.
That's exactly why I invitedChristine Perfetti to join me on
the show today.
Christine and I go way back.
20 years, in fact.
We've recently reconnected, andover the Past year, she's become
someone I can talk to honestlyabout work, life, and everything

(01:47):
in between.
She's also someone who has beenasking those same big questions
and doing something reallyinspiring about it.
While Christine continues to runher successful UX consultancy
Perfetti Media, she's alsolaunched a passion project that

(02:07):
has completely lit her up.
It's called Lift Up Connections.
You can check it out atliftupconnections.com, and I
really encourage you to do so.
It is a program that helpswomen, especially those in tech
and business, navigate thoseinflection points in life and

(02:27):
career and reimagine what theirnext chapter might look like.
In our conversation, we diveinto why Christine started Lift
Up Connections, how it evolvedfrom a pilot group into a
full-fledged offering.
How she's managed to balancethis new endeavor alongside her

(02:49):
consulting work.
She also shares what she'slearning about herself, about
purpose, and about redefiningsuccess.
Christine also mentions that ifit weren't for the current
downturn in our industry, shemight have never discovered this
passion project, which I thinkis a great reminder for all of

(03:12):
us that the tough struggles canlead us to good things.
This episode is really aboutlistening to those internal
nudges that tell you somethingneeds to shift, and finding the
courage to take action.
Even when the path ahead isn'tfully clear, so if you're

(03:34):
feeling a little lost, burnedout, or just curious about what
else might be possible, I thinkyou're going to get a lot out of
this conversation.
Let's get into it.
Please enjoy Christine Perfetti.
Hi Christine.
Welcome to the UX ConsultantsLounge.

(03:54):
I am so happy to finally haveyou on the show.

Christine Perfetti (03:59):
Hi, Kyle.
I'm very excited and honored tobe on with you.
This should be fun.

Kyle Soucy (04:04):
To fill the listeners in a bit, Christine
and I first met 20 years ago in2005, which is so hard to
believe.
We fell out of touch for a whileand then almost a year ago
reconnected after Christinereached out.
And we've been exploring a lotof interesting things that I'm

(04:25):
excited to get into during thisinterview.
And, when we first met, I was,just starting my business.
And Christine, you were workingat a well-known consultancy
called UIE, user InterfaceEngineering.
And I remember just being in aweof you.

Oh, thank you.

Kyle Soucy (04:46):
I'm gonna be completely vulnerable here, and
I don't think I've told youthis, but when we lost touch
over the years, I never reachedout to you because I didn't feel
worthy.
Like I, I told myself a storythat I wasn't in your league and
that you'd probably not beinterested in reconnecting.
And so I never did.

(05:06):
And so when you actually reachedout to me, I was just so happy.
And over this past year, youknow, you've become a person
that I can have.
Real conversations with, sharingmy fears, being vulnerable, and
you're just a great person and afriend and I'm just so glad that

(05:27):
we reconnected and that I couldhave you on the show today.

Kyle, thank you so much.
This introduction, it warms myheart and it's so interesting
when you were mentioning that wemet 20 years ago, what was going
through my mind is, yes, we met,but we really connected over the
last year and I'm so gratefulfor that.
So to hear how you felt when Ireached out, I felt the same

(05:55):
way.
Right back at you, I wasreaching out to you and
thinking, huh, will Kyle reallyremember me?
Will we have something whereshe'll want to connect?
And immediately you were saying,of course, let's talk, let's
reconnect.
So I feel exactly the same way.
Thank you so much.

Kyle Soucy (06:13):
Yeah.
And I would love if you couldstart us off by telling the
listeners about your UXconsultancy, Perfetti Media, and
the services you offer.

Absolutely.
Initially I started the companytwice.
I've had two engagements withPerfetti Media.
So as you mentioned, Kyle, Istarted out my career at a
consultancy called UserInterface Engineering.
And around the 2008 mark, rightwhen, if you recall, the
financial crisis was hitting,that's when I decided to go out

(06:44):
on my own with Perfetti Media.
at the time, this is now closeto 20 years ago, at the time I
was based in Boston, but I movedto the West Coast and Perfetti
Media for the most part, was aresearch company, at the time
focusing very much on usabilitytesting.
And contextual inquiry studieswith companies in the Bay Area.

(07:07):
So some of my clients were,WebEx at the time working with
the consumer product.
I also did quite a bit of workwith Cooper, Allen Cooper's
Company to, work on consultingprojects and also teach on
usability testing.
now it's interesting, aftergoing in-house, after my first

(07:29):
Perfetti Media stint, I wasrunning the UX teams in house at
a couple of startups in Boston.
So I was the head of userexperience.
Around 2015 was when Irelaunched Perfetti Media again.
And you know this Kyle, thereason behind the relaunch was I

(07:50):
was also going through a lifeinflection point where I was
planning to have.
A kiddo and a baby on my own asa single mom by choice.
So in 2015, I thought for mylife, this would be a wonderful
time now to relaunch thebusiness.
So your question, I'm gettingaround to it.

(08:10):
So Perfetti Media, these daysI've now been back on my own.
It's a company of one, whereI've been on my own now again
for 10 years.
And the majority of the work andoffering that I provide for
clients now is I describe it asfractional strategic research
leadership.

(08:31):
when I describe it that way,people say, what does that even
mean?

Kyle Soucy (08:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.

what is that?
clients come to me.
it's typically.
Organizations that are aroundthe scale upside.
They've already found productmarket fit as a startup and
they're looking to grow, butthey haven't yet established a
research practice, a qualitativeresearch practice.
So organizations will come to meto establish and build up that

(08:59):
research competency.
so it typically involves whyfractional I'll be embedded with
an organization for six to 12months, sometimes longer to
build up the competency for theentire organization.
so a couple of my clients thatI've worked with in long term
embedded engagements have beenGoFundMe, the crowdfunding,

(09:21):
product.
And as well as Tune in, whichis, a consumer product for
online radio, online music.
And what is the outcome we'relooking for?
The outcome when I'm coming inbeyond just creating a research
program is giving the productteam the insight they need to
make decisions that both improvethe product, but also the

(09:44):
business.

Kyle Soucy (09:46):
And when you first started out, you had some heavy
hitters there.
I mean, some great clients, youknow, WebEx, working with
Cooper, that's, amazing.
I think that's everybody's dreamwhen they start consulting.
They're gonna have these, youknow, these big clients.
And, and how did that happen?
How were you able to land thoseout of the gate?

Thank you for asking that.
I was reflecting Kyle before wewere having a discussion where.
Initially I thought, oh, this isluck.
And I can't tell you how manyconsultants I hear that, that,
oh, it's just luck.
The clients came to me when Ireflected on it.
It's, it's not luck.
And you know this, that whenclients are coming to you, it's

(10:26):
through the relationships you'vebuilt.
What happened for me when Iinitially went out on my own,
what I thought was luck when theCoopers of the world or the
WebEx came to me was actuallybased on the work came from
foundational work I had put inplace for 10 years previously.
And what I mean by that, workingat user interface engineering

(10:50):
with Jared Spool, I was.
On the road traveling at least10 weeks out of the year.
And by traveling it was going toconferences, connecting with
people, speaking at events,teaching courses within
organizations.
And I feel so fortunate for thatopportunity.
It was a lot of time on theroad, but starting out my

(11:14):
career, it enabled me to form somany connections and
relationships with people.
So, for launching my business, Ihad put in the groundwork for
close to a decade so that Icould find those clients.

Kyle Soucy (11:29):
And, and that's what's so key, right?
Putting in that groundwork andthat's where you shine.
I remember going to, one of yourtraining courses at a UIE
conference and you just ownedthe room you could tell that's
where you felt comfortable justteaching training people.
And I'm curious how thatexperience working for a UX

(11:52):
consulting firm before youopened your own, how that
helped, shape how you run yourbusiness.

I've thought a lot about this.
I'm honored, Kyle, when you saythat you've been impressed with
my public speaking and teachingbecause when I started, public
speaking, if you were to ask methe thing I was most afraid of
in the world to do it wasspeaking in public.
even,

Kyle Soucy (12:17):
Same! Yep.
Mm-hmm.

even sitting down in a meeting with 10
people, I was terrified.
And the first time I went up onstage, it was in the role as a
teacher and public speaker.
I was hired for this role atUser Interface Engineering to be
a teacher.
I was terrified, so I went up onstage voice quivering.
But you know what I found outimmediately?

(12:40):
If you know your stuff and youknow your content, people don't
care

Kyle Soucy (12:45):
Mm-hmm.

about everything else.
So you're asking what I learnedfor my business.
a couple of things.
The first thing was know mystuff, know my content, but
second, and what I learned veryearly on in my career was to be
authentic.
So when I'm going up on stageand presenting to designers or

(13:06):
product managers, I present mystory and my beliefs and what
I've learned through my careerand putting out that authentic
self has made such a difference.
so that's been huge for me.
So with my business now,something that I've really
learned, and this took me awhile, Kyle, was that when
prospects are now coming to meinitially looking for work, I

(13:30):
was thinking with the mindset ofhow do I get hired for this
project.
Now I've flipped the switchquite a bit, and when I'm
talking with prospects, it'smuch less about.
How do I get hired for thisproject?
And it's more about, can I havea conversation with these
prospects, understand theirneeds, see what problems they
need to solve, and see if Icould authentically come to them

(13:52):
and solve those problems.
So now it's more about how do Ifind a fit with work where I am
the authentic right person tosolve those problems, if that
makes sense.

Kyle Soucy (14:03):
Oh yeah.
No, and that's so helpful tohear.
When you first, decided to startPerfetti Media, what was the
catalyst for that?
Why did you wanna go out on yourown?

I, I am really appreciating these
questions.
No one's ever asked me Imentioned I first went out on my
own in 2008, and the reason forthat was I started at user
interface engineering.
In 2000, I was a kid.
I was, on a leave of absencefrom graduate school where I had

(14:35):
my master's degree in socialpsychology.
But I was taking a leave to seethe world, see what would be out
there.
And that leave is still going ontoday, 25 plus years later.
I never went back.
But the story behind going outon my own, I had spent eight
years at user interfaceengineering.
I moved up from being a courseinstructor, junior consultant to

(14:59):
managing director, running theday-to-day operations of the
business, and I hit this point.
Where it was either I was goingto spend my entire career there,
which would've been lovely andit's great path to take, or I
was going to make a leap and trysomething on my own.
And I hit this point where, youknow, early thirties at the

(15:21):
time, about a decade into mycareer, I wanted to see what I
could do on my own.
So it was my first opportunity.
It was terrifying.
very scary to go out on my own,but it was my first opportunity
for real, real growth in mycareer.
So I left UIE I gave a year'snotice, which I think is unheard

(15:43):
of

Kyle Soucy (15:43):
Yeah,

leaving a company.
I moved from Boston to the Westcoast and I established my
business all at the same time.
And I think it was, you know, I.
I thought, this is the time inmy life to take a really big
swing.
And I did.

Kyle Soucy (15:59):
you

And it worked out.
It worked out well.
It was terrifying, but I'm gladI did it.

Kyle Soucy (16:05):
So courageous to to leave something where you're so
comfortable, where you feelsecure and to just say, you know
what, I want more and I'm gonnatry.
That's huge.

Thank you, thank you.
It's funny, and I'd be curiousyour take, Kyle.
I, I think having that courageis something that I'm continuing
to try to cultivate in my life.
As I've aged and as I've gottenfarther in my career, I have to
remind myself that those leapsare what lead to the most growth

(16:38):
and most excitement.
As I've advanced in my career, Isometimes hesitate a little bit
more.
over the past couple of years,I've tried to, you know, go back
to that adventurous spirit alittle bit.

Kyle Soucy (16:50):
Yeah.
I, I personally need thosereminders all the time.
I, I do.
And I want to talk more aboutthese, pivotal moments in your
career.
I know, in 2023, not so longago, you had another big one
that led up to a passion projectof yours right now.
lift up connections, the workyou're doing.

(17:11):
can you tell us more about this?

I can.
Early 2023 was when I reallystarted thinking about.
What is coming up next?
And there's a bit of a backstorybehind this.
I mentioned the fractionalresearch leadership roles that
I've, I've had over the last fewyears.
At the beginning of 2023, I wasjust wrapping up an engagement

(17:35):
with GoFundMe.
I had spent two and a half yearsembedded at GoFundMe, running
research with donors, but alsorunning so much research with
people who are organizingfundraisers on GoFundMe and
Kyle.
I'm sure you can imaginethinking about GoFundMe, the
people who are creatingfundraisers, they're going

(17:57):
through a lot.
I talked with people who arejust trying to raise funds to,
to pay their bills, to supporttheir children.
I talked to people who haddisasters, you know, house fires
and needed to rebuild.
I was talking with people on aday-to-day basis who we're going
to create fundraisers onGoFundMe, in essence, for a

(18:20):
social safety net.
They were in dire straits andthey needed help.
And after years of talking withpeople in this position, I
really started thinking moreabout how can I use my skillset,
whether it's UX strategy,product strategy or research,
but how do I use my skillset forgood?

(18:44):
And so I was really thinkingthrough that in 2023.
And at the same time, aroundthat time was when, you know,
the market has not been great.
That's an understatement.
So right around when I waspondering what was next for me,
the market started, taking adownturn.
So most of 2023, I was in an afortunate position where I could

(19:09):
explore.
So I really started thinkingabout how do I take.
My research skills, my strategyskills and try to use those for
social good.
So I started running researchstudies with mothers in the
United States, independentresearch studies to learn more
about the challenges moms arehaving, not knowing where that

(19:32):
work would go, but wanting tounderstand more about the
problem space for mothers in thecountry.
I also started working with somenonprofits in the political
space to try to bringqualitative research to, you
know, polling is a mess.
I wanted to see if we couldbring qualitative research to
provide insight, and it was justthis stage of exploration.

(19:57):
And you asked about lift up.
In 2023, I was trying to figureout how those projects could
lead to my next act and my nextcareer, and I just wasn't yet
cracking that nut.
And what I realized, you talkedabout Kyle, and we were talking
about when we reconnected duringthis period.

(20:20):
I also started putting myselfout there a bit more than I had
in years and years.
And by putting myself out there,it meant reaching out to
previous connections.
Like you, I was posting, again,I hadn't even logged into
LinkedIn for I don't know howlong, but I started posting

(20:42):
consistently.
And what I found, and this wasso interesting, as a researcher,
you're always trying to see whatresonates with people.
So I posted on LinkedIn in acouple of areas.
One area was I'm going to sharemy strategic research leadership
and product leadership with theworld because those CPOs are

(21:05):
going to get so excited aboutwhat I have to say.
So I was posting a bunch aboutproduct strategy and user
research, but then about once ortwice a week, I was posting
about.
Being a working mom, running abusiness, feeling like now that
my son was getting older, I wasmoving from survival mode to an

(21:25):
expansive mode again, and Ican't even tell you, Kyle, the
post where I was talking aboutmy brilliance was strategic user
research.
Nothing, no response.
And I'm joking a little bit,some people were responding.
But what I really noticed was myposts where I was talking about
balancing work in life and notfully feeling satisfied.

(21:49):
Right now with the work I wasdoing, people started coming
out, they'd be responding to myposts.
Most people started, respondingbehind the scenes, sending me
messages first saying, Hey, it'snice to see you again.

Kyle Soucy (22:04):
Right.
Yeah.

I, I can't even tell you when we talk about
who our target audience is andour market, I mentioned to you,
I was trying.
To, entice chief productofficers.
Not happening, but the peoplewho were, my message was
resonating with were typicallypowerhouse women, who were
either mid-level or senior levelwomen in UX or tech or the

(22:30):
business world rallying aroundme and saying, Hey, it's so nice
to hear from you.
I'm feeling the same way.
And it really struck me.
These were just posts where Iwas authentically saying what
was on my mind that day, but somany other women were feeling
that way, and that's where LiftUp came from.
If you recall, Kyle, I reachedout to you last spring and I

(22:54):
reached out to four other womenwho I had reconnected with, some
who I had known for 20 years,some I had known for a few
months, and I asked you all,could we come together for a
pilot?
We called it the Lift Up Pilot,and I believe when I invited
you, I basically said, I don'tknow what this will end up
being, but would you be willingto experiment with me?

Kyle Soucy (23:17):
Yep.
Exactly.
Yeah.

And you said yes.

Kyle Soucy (23:21):
Yeah.
Yeah, it sounded great.
And I remember when you cameback on LinkedIn strong, I was
like, wow.
I was like, oh man, I reallyneed to be doing what Christine
does.
'cause you, you put yourself outthere in a way, like a lot.
and I, I think that's needed nowmore than ever.
Sadly.
There's just so much noise outthere.
You have to be consistent.

(23:42):
You have to be, posting all thetime.
And every time I would see apost, I'm like, oh, she's doing
it right.
She's this is what you shoulddo.
so I'm glad that you got backout there again because.
I think everybody needs to hearwhat you're talking about,
number one.
but this lift up connections.
for anybody who's not followingChristine on LinkedIn, if you
start following her, you willstart seeing such great clips

(24:05):
from all the wonderfulconversations she's having with
a lot of people.
if you wouldn't mind justtelling a little bit more about
this idea of the lift upconnections and how you're
helping people find, possibly anew career path

Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, and Kyle also, thank you.
Thank you for the complimentabout putting myself out there.
we could talk about this later,but one, one of the lessons I've
learned about putting myself outon LinkedIn was that there was
something powerful about gettingmy message out there a little
bit.
but the lesson I also havelearned is that, and this ties

(24:40):
into lift up connections, Idescribe what I was doing on
LinkedIn for a good year asbroadcasting where it was,
here's my idea world.
I'm going to put it out on apost and da da.
It's here.
What I'm finding now, over thelast several months, close to a
year now since.

(25:01):
I started Lift Up is whilebroadcasting is great to, you
know, for awareness, thein-depth connection and the
personal relationships arereally where the power comes
from in everything we do.
And it's been something that'staken me a long time to realize
and Lift Up has helped me withthat.
So the story behind Lift UpConnections was, it initially

(25:23):
started organically as a smallpilot with you and, four other
women where I had recentlyreread Designing Your Life.
I'm trying to think about, whothe author was.

Kyle Soucy (25:37):
Oh, I have that here.
Oh, bill Burnett and Dave,Evans.

Thank you.
Thanks Kyle.
And going through that processwhen I invited you and the other
women to participate in a.
Biweekly council, we weremeeting every other week for a
couple of hours.
I asked you all, Hey, can you,can you read this book?
I've just reread it again, andmy goal out of this pilot is

(26:03):
first just.
To get to know each other betterand connect, but also think
about how we can work togetherto think through what's
happening in our next chapters.
And designing Your life is anexcellent resource and book for
thinking through what your, yourvalues are, what your life
mission is, what your careermission is, but also to start

(26:24):
thinking about designing thevision for your life and career.
And through this pilot, weprimarily worked with the
exercises In that book, whatreally struck me, I thought this
would be a one-off pilot.
I had no aspiration to create aprogram for re-imagining your
life.
But at the end of the 10 weekstogether, there's something that

(26:47):
really special that happenedwhere we went through some of
the exercises.
But when we finished thisexperiment where I brought us
all together on the last day.
All of the women, and you mayrecall this, Kyle said, can we
keep meeting?

Kyle Soucy (27:02):
Keep meeting.
Yeah.

And I was like, that's interesting.
That wasn't the plan.
But yes, I'd like to keepmeeting too.
And what I realized was therewas power behind the exercises.
We went through envisioning ourfuture lives and thinking about
our values.
But I think the, I'd love tohear your thought.

(27:24):
The big power.
I think the reason the ladieswanted to stay together was the
level of connection we formedand the degree to which we could
share with each other.
And I had never had anexperience with that where it
was 10 meetings, but by thatpoint, I really felt like we
built strong friendships andsupport.

Kyle Soucy (27:45):
Absolutely.
I love our connection counciland I agree that there, there is
something magical about workingwith the peer group, rather than
a one-on-one coach.
Everyone in that group has.
Unique perspectives, experience,challenges, and we're helping
each other just talk thosethrough and work on them.

(28:08):
I mentioned to you the other daythat, as I go through my day,
I'm always hearing the otherwomen in my head, you know,
Diana, Mary, like I know whatthey would say in this moment.
And it's helpful and it'sspecial.
and I think everybody shouldhave that.

Yeah, I do too.
That meeting, our last meetingwhere we continued on, but our
officially planned last meetingwhere we were all saying,
there's something special here.
It is where I started thinkingabout how do we bottle this up
and give other people and womenthis experience.
And so we continued on with ourconnection council, but at the

(28:46):
same time, researcher researchmode in me.
I started spending a lot of timethinking about.
How I could build out a programto help cultivate connection for
women, but also help them thinkthrough what the next chapter
is.
Not just in their career, that'sa big component of it, but what

(29:06):
their next chapter will be inall facets of their life,
career, life, family,relationships, all of that.
So I spent a lot of timereading,

Kyle Soucy (29:16):
Mm-hmm.

hearing what other people were thinking
about, mapping out yourlong-term vision and back to
thinking about our careers.
I, I mentioned, when I firststarted exploring in 2023, I was
trying to figure out how to usemy unique skillset.
To do good.
part of my unique skillset andpart of the consulting work I've

(29:37):
done in addition to research,I've also spent so much of my
career helping product teamscome together to map out a
long-term vision for the productexperience.
And I've spent so much timefacilitating with
cross-functional teams how tobring out the brilliance of
those team members to come to along-term vision.

(29:58):
And what I realized.
Is, there's not much differencebetween what I'm doing in the
product world to help bringpeople together, to map out a
vision, and bringing womentogether in a connection council
to ideate and co-create and mapout a vision.
It's a vision for their life andcareer, not a product vision,
but it's taking the same skillsthat I've cultivated over two

(30:23):
decades of my career.
So, long story short, I wasseeing what others experts were
doing in this space, and I alsotook what I've learned over 20
years of product discovery andresearch and visioning to put
together a lift up program,which was a modified version of
the Connection Council that westarted with Kyle.

(30:44):
It's a six week program, butit's still very intimate.
We bring five women together forour cohort to discover where
they'd like to go next.
And I'd say it's not all of thework I do now.
I still have, I'm stillconsulting quite a bit in the UX
world, but I have to say it'sthe most fulfilling work that

(31:06):
I've done to date in my careernow 20 years in.
It's been fantastic for me.

Kyle Soucy (31:11):
Yeah.
And you light up, when you talkabout it, when we were initially
discussing topics for thisepisode, I asked you if you were
interested in chatting aboutselling, and you initially
agreed, but then you came backand said, you know what?
I could talk about the processof selling UX consulting
services, but I wouldn't bebeing authentic.

(31:31):
You know, lift up is where mypassion is now.
And I thought that was sowonderful that you were one able
to recognize, what your passionis.
And two, have the courage tocourse correct and stay
authentic to yourself by sayingthat you'd rather talk about
this.
And really, I think it's sogreat that we're talking about
this because so many of us.

(31:53):
Whether we're UX consultants oractually just in the UX field
are at that point where,everything's crappy right now.
So many layoffs and so manythings going on, and a lot of us
are reevaluating like, is thiswhat I want?
You mentioned that it's not justcareer, it's also life goals,
like.
What do you want out of thislife and what do you want your

(32:15):
work to?
What values do you want, to havein your work?
And is it aligned?
All of this is so importantright now, so I'm so glad that
we are talking about this.
and I wanna get into the detailsmore about, the course.
but just a side note to thelisteners, if, selling UX
consulting services is a topicthat you're interested in, the

(32:36):
next episode will be all aboutthat.
But you mentioned, Christine,that this started with, doing
some exercises with some otherbooks, and some other programs
and you've really turned it intosomething of your own, which is
so great.
can you tell us a little bitmore about that?
Reimagine your career course.

Yeah, absolutely Kyle.
And thank you also for justacknowledging that it is a
really messy, rough time.
I've been thinking a lot aboutthis too, where it's a reframe a
bit, but I have gotten, mymindset has not always been in
the best place when the markettook a turn and I did just wanna

(33:17):
share as a field, as a UX field,I do think we're in this
inflection point.
And one reframe I've thought alot about is that if the market
had just stayed as it was, ifthere was just a wealth of
abundance, there wouldn't be alift up.

Kyle Soucy (33:33):
Mm.

And I've thought a lot about this, that
sometimes with the challengesand the pain, it can help us
wake up.
And you mentioned this, thatwe're all thinking a lot about
how do we design a career inlife that aligns with us.
It, it is a bit of a reframe.
I know it's such a tough, toughtime for many of us out there,

(33:55):
but it's also a time where weget to rethink and reframe where
we go at the next stage.
And that's why in a lot of waysit's not fun at all going
through the mess, but it doeslead to some interesting,
exciting places.
And so thank you for mentioningthat.
with Lift Up, you're right, ithas evolved quite a bit over

(34:18):
time.
the first thing with Lift Up wasI didn't even know if this would
become a program initially, butthe first step I had to take,
and it's part of the fundamentalprinciple behind what we talk
about in the connection councilsfor reimagining your career in
life is the importance of takingaction.

(34:40):
Little action.
It's so easy just to think abouttaking action and with these
cohorts that I'm running,initially when we got through
our pilot, you may recall I wastalking about running a cohort
with other women, but I waitedseveral months and finally I
just took the leap.
I published a cohortannouncement on Maven, the

(35:04):
learning platform.
I opened it up to the public andI just did it.
I took action and guess what?
People signed up.
And when people were signing upfor my course, it really was
great motivation to thinkthrough what would be the best
program for these attendees.
And so the process behind LiftUp the End Goal, a couple of

(35:29):
outcomes we'd like to achieve.
One is to give women theopportunity to reimagine what
would be next, what will theirnext chapter be.
But just as importantly, by theend of the Connection Council
and the cohort, we'd like theparticipants to take some action
towards that.
We can all have a vision forwhat the future can be, but if

(35:52):
we're not taking thoseincremental actions, it's not
going to come to be.
So.

Kyle Soucy (35:56):
that's scary, right?
To take that action, and youneed support when you're going
to do that.

In our pilot, the magic was the
support, the friendship, theaccountability to each other.
as we were re-imagining andputting together our plan for
our next act and what our visionwas, the feedback we gave each
other on the long-term vision,it's so huge.
And so part of the council, it'sabout getting to the long-term

(36:23):
vision and taking action, but abig, big consideration.
My biggest consideration as theinstructor and facilitator was
how every single time we'remeeting do I help cultivate the
trust and the support and theconnection with the women in
this group, because that'severything, coming into a safe.

(36:44):
Group to share where you'rethinking you'd like to go, and
just as importantly, sharingyour fears and getting support.
That's what enabled the women totake action is having that
support system along the way andthe accountability.

Kyle Soucy (37:00):
Absolutely.
And I got so much out of it.
my own experience going throughthis cohort, it allowed me to,
to look at things more deeply.
And you mentioned that it iswork.
you're, you're signing up.
It's not like a, oh, I'm justgonna have a laid back
experience.
No, you have to be an activeparticipant.

(37:20):
Really go through the exercisesand it takes time to reflect and
to think about what you want,what you've done in your life,
what your views on things are.
And doing that work helped me torealize.
Some things in my life that arelacking that I knew, but I was
doing a great job, activelyavoiding, you know?

(37:43):
We did what was called theHealth Work Play Love dashboard.
That was from the Designing YourLife book.
And I realized after doing thatexercise how my level, of play
is just pathetically low.
I don't, I don't do much forpure enjoyment and I wanna have
more hobbies and.

(38:03):
I wanna learn how to playpickleball and read more and do
go to more concerts.
I wanna dance more.
I wanna just enjoy things more.
And that's totally separate fromwork.
and kind of going through thatexercise, it really helped.
And actually I do need to bepushed to do those things.
and also finding out wherethere's conflict.
Right.
there was a compass exercise toothat we did that I, thought was

(38:27):
so helpful.
you talk to us about where doour views on work and life
compliment each other and whereare they at odds.
And, I've talked about on thispodcast before that, the work I
do, it's very fulfilling.
And it seems, especially aftergoing through the exercise with
you that.
It's aligned.
Like I feel good about being inthis industry, but you know,

(38:50):
sometimes having to sell myservices and do self-promotion,
it conflicts with my life views,which really goes all against,
you know, being shallow orsuperficial.
So it forces me to come at itfrom a different angle now,
knowing that, helping people,not looking at it from that lens
of selling people.
And, I think that it helps menow, when I, when I look at my

(39:14):
notes from what we did in thatperiod of time, I can reflect on
that and it forces me toactually pay special attention
to those moments that bring mejoy, whether it's in work or
life.
And I wasn't actively doing thatbefore I.

Yeah.
That's so interesting, Kyle, andit's a shared theme from other
participants as well.
You mentioned something about inthe Designing Your Life book, we
did go through the exercise ofreally rating where we are on a
scale of how we're thinkingabout our work career, our
personal life, ourrelationships, our health, and

(39:50):
it really struck me.
It struck you and otherparticipants that they're all
intertwined, that we can't justthink of our work as separate
from our personal life or ourhealth.
That all of those areas need tobe in abundance and be doing
well for us to thrive.
And it's something that I try toremind myself of as well.

(40:13):
what had evolved, and you, Ithink you'll appreciate this as
well.
In the cohorts today, people aresurprised that we don't even get
to a discussion of reimaginingour career until about five
weeks

Kyle Soucy (40:26):
Oh wow.

into the session because it's a lot of
reflection and thought goinginto where we want to get to.
So one place we start, and thiscame from my research
background, was that all of theparticipants go out and they
run, in essence a listeningtour.
So one thing that I asked themto do is think back in their

(40:50):
career and think back and listseveral people who have
supported you at some point inyour career or taught you at
some point in your career.
In essence, these are people whohelped build you up in your
career, and I suggested andrecommended that even before
thinking about what's next.
Interview a couple of thosepeople so it wasn't large scale

(41:13):
research study.
It was reaching out to a handfulof people from their past lives
and career and ask themspecifically.
What they saw as theirstrengths, giving them honest
feedback about their strengthsin their work, the areas that
they could have improved, wherethis person thinks that they
could go in their career givenwhat they saw.

(41:34):
And the participants who hadgone through these cohorts have
said this was one of the mostvaluable exercises for them.
Because first it let them take astep back and think back to
other periods in their career,but they got to hear a
perspective that wasn't theirown.
And oftentimes these weretrusted people they worked with

(41:56):
that it gave them insight intosome of their skills and zones
of genius that they weren't evenconsidering anymore.
So doing discovery work was oneof the starting points in the co
cohort, and participants weregetting quite a bit out of it.

Kyle Soucy (42:13):
Oh, I imagine, and I actually have a little bit of
fear in doing that.
I think about that exercise andit's oh, I have to ask some, you
know, not only what theythought, but like, you know, how
could I be improved?
And everybody needs to knowthat.
That's good stuff to know, andwe need to be open to hearing
that, but it's scary right.
To go and learn that.

Yeah, it's scary.
And that's why where we startedwas going to people that were,
people that lifted you up inyour career, in essence, are
very safe people.
And what also came out of this,Kyle, like back to, there's a
theme through our entirediscussion today, and it's.

(42:53):
About connection.
many of the participants havegone back to people who were
mentors and role models ear atearlier stages in their career.
So in these conversations, theydid in essence interview these
folks, but they also had anopportunity to thank these
people

Kyle Soucy (43:13):
Yeah.

and share why they were specifically
reaching out to them.
And several, one participant Ican remember in our most recent
connection council came back.
She was lit up because she hadreconnected with a former
manager she hadn't spoken to in10 years.
And they were planning ongetting together because it

(43:34):
wasn't just about an interview,you know, it was about thanking
this former manager and a levelof connection that they could
bring to the conversation.
It was very safe.
She learned from theconversation, but she also could
give back and share with someonehow much they meant to them.
It was huge.
So it's, it's an opportunity tolearn about yourself and it's an

(43:57):
opportunity to reconnect, whichis hugely powerful, especially
right now in these times, youknow?

Kyle Soucy (44:04):
Yeah, it's a wonderful way to practice
gratitude.

Absolutely.
another area where we'veexplored quite a bit, and you'll
see these aspects of the UXprocess and everything.
We're doing another exercise theparticipants went through that
they loved, and I actually wentthrough this exercise.
I was testing and pilotingeverything out was mapping out,

(44:27):
I call it the career inventory,but it's mapping out your career
journey today.
So we basically drew out ajourney map and you mapped out
all of the roles you've had inyour career to date, and you
mapped out what was workingwell, what went well, what
energized you, and what wentpoorly, and what depleted you.

(44:49):
And you started seeing thejourney of your career.
And what I learned from that isjust by going through the
exercise and taking that time togo back before you start
re-imagining what your futurecould be, it's so valuable you
remember things that may noteven have occurred to you.
Just going back and thinkingabout what skills and expertise

(45:13):
you cultivated and what lit youup at the time.
The key point has been the morewe can look back and take a
pause before we start visioningall the better, it gives us the
time to reflect.

Kyle Soucy (45:27):
I love that you're bringing the UX methods into
this, lift up community.
That's awesome.

Thank you.
Well, I'm still admittedly inthe messy middle of figuring out
what the next act is and everyactivity with lift up.
Right now I'm thinking about howdo I bring.
My expertise in skillset to liftup, to help others and to serve
others.
So one thing that I've learnedis that when we're thinking

(45:56):
about our next act for career,some people will tell you, just
chase your passion.
And it's great to be thinkingabout what you're passionate
about and what you're energizedabout.
What I'm seeing from the womenin the cohorts and from my
experience is passion matters.
Having work that aligns withyour values also matters, but

(46:16):
you also have to think throughwhat skills and expertise have I
cultivated over the last.
You know, 20 plus years that Ican bring to my work.
an example is, I love Bar wouldI love to be a bar instructor
next week?
Yeah, sure.
Of course I would.
Of course I would.
I'm passionate about it.
But have I built up a careerwhere I'm the expert and the

(46:39):
person, who people would go tofor a bar studio?
No, not yet.
That is not the skills andexpertise I've cultivated.
I've spent 20 plus years in theproduct and UX community.
So yes, I wanna follow mypassions, but how do I build
upon what I've built in mycareer?
It's described as careercapital.

(46:59):
How do I build on that to followmy passions?

Kyle Soucy (47:04):
Yeah.
And your product visioningexperience, and you mentioned
too before that, you, you areincorporating doing collaging
now too, which, you know, Ilove, that's, a UX method that
is not widely used that I thinkshould be used more.

And not only that you love that you've
brought to the attention toalmost all of us in the UX
space.
I can't thank you enough, Kyle.
So yes, I have integratedcollaging into, the cohort and
the backstory here.
You had mentioned that I'mrunning interviews with
powerhouse women in tech and UXin product.

(47:39):
one of the women I most recentlyinterviewed is Jen McGinn, who's
a UX leader in our space.
She was going through a lifeinflection point and deciding
what was next in her career.
And she brought up your workwith collaging and how she had
seen you speak on the approach,uh, to a conference.

(47:59):
And she thought.
This is mind blowing what Kyleis doing.
And she said she was taking yourcollaging approach and taking it
to start mapping out andenvisioning and visualizing what
her future life and career couldbe.
And it was just, it was sointeresting.

(48:19):
We were already participating inour pilot together and then Jen
McGinn is saying, you shouldreally see what Kyle Soucy is
doing.

Kyle Soucy (48:26):
so funny.
Yeah.

It was amazing.
So, I was watching yourpresentations on the topic.
when we went through the pilot,part of the visioning exercise
was asking people.
To write out a story of whattheir future life and career
will look like in five years.
I, in subsequent cohorts, askedpeople to write their story, but

(48:48):
also to put together a collagewith images some of the folks
who are clipping from magazines.
other people were looking forimagery online.
but guess what?
For all of the participants whowent through the visioning, they
started with the collaging.

Kyle Soucy (49:04):
Oh, that's it.

There's just something powerful there.

Kyle Soucy (49:07):
It's great.
And for anybody that's notaware.
so with UX research, usingcollaging is really just, in its
simplest form, it's reallyasking participants to, think
about or reflect on theirexperience with the product and
then pick out pictures thatrepresent how they, the
experience that they want.
Or it could be reflecting on theexperience they currently have,

(49:30):
which is really eyeopening.
but the collage is interestingbecause we're not asking those
predefined questions, right?
putting them on the spot.
If it's a sensitive topic.
Sometimes it's hard to talkabout.
The collage is the, theinstrument for really expressing
your needs, your frustrations,really the needs that exist,
kind of beneath that.
Level of awareness of consciousawareness.

(49:51):
So I've always, always loved itand I've always sworn it is one
of those things that I have todo is talk and, and write more
about using projectivetechniques in UX research.
'cause I do love it.
so I'm so glad to hear that itresonated with Jen, that she
mentioned it to you and thatyou're incorporating it into
this work.
I think that's great

I am, and I'm waiting for your book on the
topic.
I'll be the first one to buy itbecause it, it's, you're
absolutely right in terms of thethings we were learning.
So when we were going throughthe exercise and the
participants were bringing backthe imagery, there's something
communicated and conveyedthrough the images they chose
the photos, just it, it couldnot be articulated in words, and

(50:32):
we could just feel where theywere trying to get to.
And, and the women in thecohorts were saying it's also a
level of inspiration.
They now have those visionboards on their walls so they
can remind themselves of, youknow, what they feel and where
they're hoping to get to.
There's just something reallypowerful there.
So thank you for your work inthis space.

(50:56):
I, I did wanna touch uponsomething that I was curious
your take on, because.
From the visioning exercises andtalking about the connection
councils and what they bring tothe conversation and what power
they bring, the cohorts.
We actually have participantsmap out two futures.
one is in five years, ifeverything keeps going the way

(51:20):
it is and you continue on yourpath, but you're moving into
incrementally improving over thenext five years, what will your
life look like?
And people map that out.
I then ask them.
To put together their vision,their wildly audacious vision of
the future.
If no fears are in place, ifyou're not feeling the stress of

(51:44):
responsibilities, if money wereno issue, what would that future
vision look like?
And all of the participants aremapping out both.
And they'll present both back tothe group.
What was a constant theme forthe women?
They, they present that firstvision that's oh, if I keep
going along this path.
But the second one, they'd lightup when they're talking about

(52:08):
their widely audacious visionand they'd light up, get
excited.
But many of the women would say,no, no, this isn't realistic
though.
And what was interesting, whatconsistently happens, the
connection council members whohear that second wildly
audacious vision would say.

(52:28):
this seems like there's piecesthat are quite realistic and it
helped the other participantsrealize that the wildly
audacious vision is not as, youknow, pie in the sky as they may
be thinking that there's somerealistic elements that they can
start incorporating.

Kyle Soucy (52:46):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I remember being embarrassed toshare what.
That second life would be likeif I could just do anything.
And I remember very clearly thewomen being like, yeah, that's
not so wild.
And it was eyeopening.
And I still think about that andI see connections.
I can see how I can incorporatesome of that into, you know, not

(53:11):
totally upheaval of I'm notgonna be a UX consultant
anymore.
I'm gonna do this wild, crazything now.
But you can have both, you cando a little bit of both.
And there is a pathway to thatpossibly.
And it's not just some, oh, if Ihad, won the lottery kind of
thing.

Yeah, the one thing that I'm trying to
figure out for next steps forthe cohorts to evolve them, so I
mentioned.
What I'm finding in myexperience and feedback from the
other participants is when acohort ends, that's when the
tough part begins, like back tothe taking action.

(53:51):
You can have your collage on thewall, you can have the full
story, you can know exactly whatyou wanna do.
Yet there's oftentimes ahesitancy with the action and
what I'm trying to figure outgoing forward, back to the power
of having that support group andthe accountability that matters,
how to help people continuingalong the line to take that

(54:13):
incremental action.
That's, I think for most people,and it's not just for people in
my cohort in life, it's gettingpast the fear and resistance and
making those movements.
It's challenging.
There's a lot holding peopleback and I'm trying to figure
out how do I evolve the cohorts?
I can't solve all problems, butI'm trying to crack that nut a

(54:36):
little bit.
How to provide people thesupport and accountability over
time.

Kyle Soucy (54:42):
Oh, it's so good to hear what the challenges that
you're working on now becausethat, that's huge.
You're absolutely right.
It's now what?
You know, now we go back to ourlives and that can be
distracting and, you know, backto the treading water.
And you need that active, well,I personally need reminders and
need somebody possibly activelyreminding me of what I'm looking

(55:07):
for, what I'm going for.
So I think that's reallyinteresting and I'm so glad
you're working on this'cause weall need it.
I wanted to ask.
What you've specifically learnedfrom, just trying something new
and stepping out from UXconsulting and trying this, lift
up connections and as, just apassion project.
But before I do, I wanted totake a moment and talk about

(55:29):
self-worth.
You mentioned it before and Iwas thinking about it before our
interview and I actually, lookedup the definition.
one of them was, self-worth isthe internal sense of being good
enough and worthy of love andbelonging from others.
And personally, I wish so muchof my self-worth wasn't tied to

(55:52):
work.
You know, if my consulting workis slow and I'm struggling, then
my self-worth is plummeting.
like almost anyone else I know.
It's just, it's hard.
I think when you're out on yourown as a consultant, it, really
messes with you when thingsaren't going well,'cause.
It's not like you have aguaranteed salary.
but as we're learning now,nobody's really got job security

(56:14):
much these days.
but the hard truth is if youstruggle with self worth, it
often leads to others dictatingyour value, which is not at all
good for, sales or, or any otherkind of business that you're in.
And I found that your coursehelped me to focus more on
self-compassion, acknowledgingmy accomplishments, practicing

(56:39):
gratitude, while also settingboundaries and engaging in
fulfilling activities that alignmore with my values.
And it's not to say that I stilldon't struggle with self-worth,
but going through theseexercises forced me to write out
a lot that was in my head.
And it's nice to be able to lookback on those notes and just

(57:00):
remind myself again if my valuesand check in that I'm on that
right path.
And I wanted to share a quotefrom that.
Designing your Lifebook, thatreally resonated with me.
you may not always know whereyou're going, but you'll know if
you're going in the rightdirection.
And, knowing your work view,your life view, it gives you

(57:21):
your true north, your compass.
So that stayed with me, and I'mso grateful again that you
invited me to take part in thatfirst cohort.
I'm so glad to see how it'schanging and I almost wanna go
through it again after listeningto all the new things that
you're doing.
Now.
I'm sure these exercises aregreat, but I'd love to know what

(57:41):
have you learned and reallygotten out of doing this?

Yeah.
Thank you Kyle.
Thank you for sharing all ofthat.
And thank you for talking aboutself-worth.
It's something that I alsowanted to address that I don't
think I realized.
I've been very fortunate in mycareer and I know I've been very
privileged and we started thisconversation where I said, oh, I
went out on my own and WebEx wasjust there.

(58:08):
So I, had a very privilegedcareer and I can tell you the
last two years were new andscary and it made me recognize
when the market slowed.
Admittedly, the last two yearsout of a 25 year career, these
have been the two mostchallenging and it made me

(58:29):
recognize.
I, for a long time did think Ihad pretty high self-worth, but
the last couple of years made merealize that it wasn't
self-worth.
It was, I was getting a wholelot of external validation from
the world saying, you're rockingit, Christie.
And, and that's where my worthwas coming from.

(58:51):
if we had connected in 2022, Idid think I was rocking it where
I am a single mom by choice.
My son got through the childcareyears business was thriving, and
I thought I knew my stuff, butwhat I realized was when the
external validation goes away,that my worth was also

(59:12):
plummeting and it was a wake upcall for me where like, how am I
using that lesson learned in mywork today, it's still a daily
challenge where I remind myselfthat my worth is not correlated
with what the external world andwhat the product world might

(59:34):
tell me.
Some days it's hard to remindmyself of that, but it's been
really, really important and Ido think I've needed this wake
up call.
I've thought about the abundanceI had in my career, and I
touched upon this, Kyle, that ifthings had gone on 2022, 2023,
2024, I felt abundant with theclient work.

(59:59):
Did I feel abundant internallywith the work I was doing and
feeling fulfilled?
And the answer is no.
so one of my biggest lessonslearned is that with lift up,
I've never felt as internallyabundant and aligned with the
work I'm doing.
is that yet translating to thesame degree of external

(01:00:21):
abundance that I've had in my UXand product career?
No, not yet.
But what I'm trying to reconcilefor myself is this feels right.
It's a culmination of the skillsI've cultivated over years will
lift up, stay in the exact sameform it is now, I'm guessing not
it's evolved over time, butthat's something else I'm

(01:00:42):
embracing.
I'm viewing lift up in essence.
As a lean experiment, puttingthings out there, taking action,
seeing what the audience comesback and shares with me and
evolve it over time.
so I've learned that.
Another thing that I wannahighlight for folks in the UX
community, you won't besurprised a bunch of UXers are

(01:01:03):
going through my program becauseit's been a challenging time and
they're trying to figure out,yeah, it's been really rough and
one of the real lessons learned,not one person coming out of my
cohort has said, yep, done withux, I'm off to something new.
I'm writing my Great Americannovel.
No one's said that yet.
They may do that instead.

(01:01:26):
When they've looked at theirwildly audacious life, there's
elements of that future visionthat they're looking to
incorporate in small ways andlearn from it.
So I tell UX folks, if you'restruggling, if you're trying to
figure out what's next, itdoesn't mean you have to leave
your UX career behind.

(01:01:46):
It means can you start thinkingabout what would be true and
authentic to you?
What would be your wildlyaudacious life?
And how do you start integratinglittle pieces of that to test it
out and see what comes to be?
that would be my message forfolks.
It doesn't mean you need toreinvent everything about your
life.
It means try to test things outand see where it takes you.

Kyle Soucy (01:02:09):
Invaluable.
It really is.
And one thing you mentioned too,to me, when you're going through
this, experiment, with lift upconnections and trying something
new, is being okay with failing,which I think is such a good
message.

Christine Perfetti (01:02:25):
I'd be curious, your take, I've also
had to define what failure means

Mm, yeah.

to me.
So lift up right now.
the way I am thinking about itis, is it my one and only
business bringing in the bulk ofthe revenue for my family, no.
have many women come back to meand said that the work has
helped improve their lives andhelped them find a new
direction.

(01:02:53):
Absolutely.
So, yeah, I've reframed whatfailure means.
So right now I would like tocrack the nut I see lift up as
just one part of all of my worklife.
I would really like to figureout how to grow and scale this
work more.

(01:03:14):
For sure.
It would be great to have ahugely abundant, thriving
business, but I think the workmatters and I think the work can
help many people.
And I'm trying to figure out howcan I take this magic in the
bottle and scale it out to helpmore people.
So even though when I thinkabout success and failure, now

(01:03:36):
it's.
My view of success will be, canI grow this to the point where
I'm helping more and more womenfigure out what's next?

Yeah.
I love looking at it in thatframework that is a much better
way to frame it.
as I mentioned before, we wereoriginally going to talk about
sales, but decided not to.
But I have to ask, what has itbeen like finding participants
for your cohort?
Have you found any similaritiesor differences to selling your
UX consulting services?

It is really interesting, Kyle.
I touched upon briefly that formy cohort, I launched on the
Maven Learning Platform andgoing into the work.
My hypothesis was by launchingon Maven, I would generate so
much awareness for the approachand the work I'm doing, that it
would just bring in throws ofparticipants.

(01:04:30):
What I am finding back toconnection mattering the most.
Just like in my UX in productcareer, the women who have been
going through my cohorts didn'tjust blindly find out about me
because they went to Maven andthey were searching for a career
session.
It's that they started hearingfrom friends and from their

(01:04:53):
community about the program, orthey learned of my work through
someone else.
It's been about the connectionsand relationships.
A couple of people have reachedout to me, Kyle, because you
mentioned that you've gottenvalue from the cohort and they
trust and respect you.
So what I'd say is like themajority of the people going

(01:05:14):
through the cohorts, it's stillcoming down to networking,
cultivating really authenticrelationships with people, and
that's what brings them in thedoor.
I would say about Maven, Imentioned that I thought, oh,
this would lead to so manypeople signing up.
What Maven has done really well.
I think of it as an excellentplatform for generating

(01:05:36):
awareness for the work you'redoing.
So there's a couple of ways thatI've used Maven.
One is to run my paid cohortsfor reimagining your career in
the connection councils.
The other way I've used Maven,which has been really
invaluable.
You can launch and publish freeLightning Talks on the Maven

(01:05:57):
platform.
And I've done that several timesand I've been exposed to many
other people.
You know, hundreds of peoplesign up for the Lightning talks,
and they're learning about mywork.
But the way I think about it isthat it's a long game that I
need to cultivate relationshipswith those people who are now

(01:06:18):
aware of my work.
So Maven has helped me at thetop of the funnel generate
awareness, but now it's my jobto show value and develop
connections with those folks whoare now aware of my work.

I'm so glad you shared that.
'cause I know a lot ofconsultants are considering like
putting workshops out there,more doing courses, and I know
Mavens a popular platform, soit's, I am sure, helpful to the
listeners to know what you thinkof that.
Is the experience good, withputting your course on there in
terms of really just the toolsthat they offer.

I find for the infrastructure and the tools
they offer.
Absolutely.
for independent consultantsthinking about putting their
courses out there, Maven is aone stop shop where you'll have
a landing page for the course,the purchasing process is all
set.
so you don't have to deal withthose logistics.
Unfortunately, I'm hearing froma lot of in independent

(01:07:18):
consultants, and I was one ofthem, that they hope that once
they put their course on Maventhrows of people are going to
come out of the woodwork andsign up for their Maven course
and pay for it right away.
And that has not been myexperience.
And from talking with otherfolks who have gone on Maven, it
still involves.

(01:07:40):
The consultant, doing the workto find many of the people once
you hit a tipping point, onceyou've been on Maven
consistently for several monthsand you're getting some
attendees, yes, over time youmay build an audience on the
Maven platform, but expecting tohave huge numbers right away if
you don't already have a builtin audience.

(01:08:02):
It's really, really tough.
what's really appealing if yougo to Maven, you'll see some of
the product experts and productgurus getting hundreds of people
signing up.
that's not the experience formost of us when we first start
using the platform.
but in terms of tools available,I've loved it.
I've loved that I can launch acourse within a day.

(01:08:24):
I have a landing page for mycourse.
I don't need to deal with thee-commerce engine.
There's email templates that Ican go to.
So if you're looking for theinfrastructure for running a
course and a platform for that,mavens been excellent.
If you're looking to have abuilt-in audience immediately to
buy your cohort, the work isgoing to be much more on your

(01:08:46):
end initially.

So helpful.
Oh, thank you for sharing that.
So I wanted to wrap up with,some rapid fire questions here,
and with all your years ofexperience, consulting, both as
an internal, consultant workingwith UIE and then going out on
your own for so many years, Iwould love to know for you, what

(01:09:08):
do you think makes a consultantgood?

Oh, excellent question, Kyle.
My perspective has changed overthe years.

Mm-hmm.

When I first went out on my own, I thought
what made the best consultant istheir knowledge of the practices
being the best, best researcher,for example, or the best
facilitator, and that stillmatters.
I think what has made me astronger consultant is really
spending the time, not justthinking about the practices,

(01:09:42):
but spending the time to get toknow my prospects and my
audience, spending the timeunderstanding their problems,
delving deeply.
We touched upon this before thatthe clients who have worked with
me the most and come back, theywork with me because they know
that I get them and understandthem, know what challenges

(01:10:04):
they're dealing with in theirwork, know what's keeping them
up at night, and just asimportantly know how I can help
them and contribute to theirwork.
And they trust me.
You know, it's the element oftrust.
as well.
I have clients who have comeback that sometimes I have to
say, you know what?
I'm not the right person for youfor this project because it's me

(01:10:26):
knowing them so well and knowingwhere I can help them or not.
So understanding the prospectsand clients you're working with,
understanding what keeps them upat night and, and solving their
problems.
that's huge.

And what's the best piece of business advice you've
ever received?

I thought about this because it's so
funny.
We grow and change over time,Kyle.
So again, I think about early inmy career versus now.
So one thing I heard when Ifirst went out on my own, I went
back to a coach and mentorbecause my client was
frustrating me.
The way I described it was theyjust don't get it.

Uhhuh.

They're not doing what I'd like.
And the advice I got was firsttake a breath.
But the second piece of advicewas no matter how much you try,
you can't stop people fromsticking beans up their nose.

I know who said that.
Yep.
And it's so true.
It's so

so, so true.
The one thing I'd say, and ithelped me so much, the take a
breath.
To remember that you can't stoppeople from sticking beans up
their nose.
someone who talks about this alot lately, who I follow, I
listen to her podcast, is MelRobbins.

Oh, I love

just, I love her too.
She just came out with a bookcalled Let Them.

Mm-hmm.

Same Concept.
You can't change people.
You can't control them.
If they wanna do something, letthem do it.
Let them see the consequences oftheir behavior.
All of that is true, and I stilllive by that.
There's an element of growthI've had since I first thought
about beans and noses.
there's this underlyingassumption when we say, no

(01:12:11):
matter how much you try, youcan't stop people from sticking
beans up their nose, that peopleare just wrong they don't have
good intentions.
And what I've shifted 20 yearsago, I thought I knew it all and
the client was wrong.
Now I know that when people aresticking beans up their nose.
There's some reason why, andit's not all just, these are

(01:12:35):
flawed people.
And the caveat I'd say, now Istill think about beans and
noses all the time, but I alsotry to think about how do I best
try to understand these peopleand why they feel a need to
stick a bean up their nose.
Like that's, that's the yes.
And you can't just be like, oh,they're wrong.

(01:12:55):
Like you can think it, but themore we understand why the beans
are up the nose, the better.
So I think the one thing, andmaybe it's having become a
mother, I just show much moreempathy and patience

Patience.
Yep, for

people.
So yeah, that was an excellentpiece of advice early on.

So wise, and I hope everybody is taking notes
because this only comes with alot of experience I found.
'cause I was just like, same 20years ago, I, entered the room
like, well why aren't theytaking my advice?
I should, they should trust me.
Like I know everything.
you know, it's, that is, youneed those years to take that
different perspective.
I love that.

(01:13:34):
And you mentioned Mel Robbinsand her wonderful book, let
them, any other consultingresources that have been most
helpful for you?

You touched upon, we initially were going to
have a conversation about salesand I thought about what
consulting books have I readrecently that were really
instrumental and important tome.
It's funny, I think of it as aconsulting book, but it's not
positioned as a consulting book.
I have it with me.
It's called The Big Leap.

(01:14:03):
Conquer your hidden fear andtake life to the next level by
gay Hendrix.
And the reason I think it's awonderful book for consultants,
especially consultants, out ontheir own, it really focuses on
the mindset behind success.
And to be an independentconsultant, thriving and

(01:14:26):
abundant, especially in a marketlike this, mindset is key.
So what really struck me aboutthis book, I first read it about
five years ago, it's really allabout thinking about what might
be holding you back, whatbarriers you might have, whether
it's fear or self-sabotage, orself-worth issues, and really

(01:14:49):
bringing those to the forefront.
So when you are in prospectcalls and sales calls, you're
bringing your best self to thoseconversations.
I can't recommend it enough.
It's less about the tactics ofconsulting and more about the
importance of mindset andself-worth and really becoming
conscious of those areas.

(01:15:11):
It's not easy being anindependent consultant, so the
more resources we have to bringour best selves to the work, the
better.

Oh, absolutely.
I am definitely gonna check thatout.
Thank you for thatrecommendation, and thank you so
much for spending your time withus today.
And how can people get in touchwith you if they're interested
in and possibly participating ina cohort or for your consulting
services?

Thank you for asking.
So a couple of places, we'vetalked a lot about lift up
connections, so if you'd like tosee the work we're doing in that
space, but the interviews I'mconducting with Powerhouse women
to hear about their lifeinflection points as well as the
cohorts.
You can visit me at Lift UpConnections dot com.
I'm still in the product and UXworld like I was talking about.

(01:15:59):
We don't necessarily just throwout our previous career.
I still am doing much product UXconsulting work, still loving
much of it.
You can find me at perfettimedia dot com, and I'm on
LinkedIn.
I'd love for folks to connectwith me there.

Awesome.
Well, I'm gonna include links toeverything in the show notes for
anybody that, is interested.
Any books that we mentioned.
I'll throw a link to thecollaging article video, as
well.
And Christine, thank you so muchAgain, this was really
invaluable and I think reallytimely.
So thank you for the time.

Thank you, Kyle.
This was a lot of fun.
I appreciate it.
I'm honored to be on.

Oh good, and I'm so glad you had fun.
I did too.

Thank you.

All right.
Take care.

Bye.

Bye All right.
That wraps up this episode.
Thanks for joining me.
So do you have a topic or aquestion that you would like us
to explore on a future episodeof the UX consultants lounge?
Perhaps there's an anonymousconsulting story you want to
submit.
If so, click on the link in theshow notes to submit your story

(01:17:10):
or question from the podcastwebsite.
Until next time, keep thatconsultancy going.
I can't wait to have you back inthe lounge for our next episode.

All Episodes

Christine Perfetti - Blending UX Consulting with a Mission-Driven Passion Project

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Christine Perfetti - Blending UX Consulting with a Mission-Driven Passion Project