Erika Hall and Mike Monteiro - Consulting with Backbone: Authenticity, Humanity, and the Value of Hard Truths - The UX Consultants Lounge

Episode Transcript
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Kyle Soucy (00:15):
Welcome to the UX consultants lounge.
I'm Kyle Soucy, founder ofusable interface an independent
UX research consultancy.
You can find out more about mywork and the services I offer at
my website, usable interface.
com.
I'll be your host here at thelounge where I'll be providing a

(00:35):
place for UX consultants togather, share stories, and learn
more from one another.
So we're almost there.
The end of 2024.
I don't know about all of you,but I'm ready to put this year
behind me and I'm definitelylooking forward to taking a
little break for the holidays.

(00:57):
I hope that everyone gets anopportunity to relax and
recharge and just be with yourloved ones.
I know I really need that rightnow.
Reflecting a bit on this year,I'm super proud of myself for
starting this podcast back inJuly and getting six episodes
out before the end of the year.

(01:19):
I would love to be able topublish more than once a month
but c'est la vie.
It's not easy to fit this inwith my work and family, and I'm
all about quality over quantity.
This podcasting endeavor hasbeen a lot of fun.
It's challenged me in so manynew ways, and I really love

(01:39):
having this creative outlet.
And I hope you're all enjoyingit as much as I am putting it
out there.
That being said, I have to sharewith all of you that this
episode.
just about broke me.
There were a lot of technicalissues with mics and sound that
made editing pretty painful.

(02:00):
But the result is nothing shortof amazing.
I don't do this often, but I'mgoing to pat myself on the back
for this one because I'm prettyproud of how this came out
considering the issues with theraw recording.
I was actually at a point whereI really wasn't sure if I'd have
an episode so I'm so glad thatit worked out.

(02:21):
Without further delay, my gueststoday are Erica Hall and Mike
Monteiro.
Two people who probably don'tneed any introduction in our
industry, but I will do thehonors anyway.
They are both co founders ofMule Design.
They are both prolific writersand speakers.

(02:42):
Erica is the author of JustEnough Research, and
Conversational Design.
Mike is the author of Ruined byDesign.
Design is a job.
You're my favorite client andthe collected angers.
A collection of essays aboutdesign, ethics, and social
responsibility.

(03:03):
As anyone who knows them willtell you, they tell it like it
is.
And this episode is definitelymarked explicit for that reason.
Seriously, though, they are twoof the most authentic people on
our industry, which I trulyadmire and appreciate.
And it definitely made for somegreat discussion.
The topics we focused onincluded the origin story of

(03:27):
Mule Design and their holisticapproach to their services.
We talked about the reason theynamed their consultancy Mule.
And why you should probablynever name your consultancy
after a horse.
We discussed some of thechallenges their business faced
over the last 20 plus years andhow it's helped shape how they
do business today and the advicethat they give others.

(03:50):
And a little bit of a spoilerhere, get a lawyer is the
takeaway.
We spent some time on theimportance of putting yourself
out there, but in an authenticway.
Apparently, self promotiondoesn't have to be a dirty word
when it's done correctly.
Erica and Mike really emphasizedthe importance of owning your

(04:11):
voice.
They challenged all of usconsultants to embrace our
humanity and stop sounding likemachines.
They stressed that authenticityand honesty, even when it
involves difficult discussions,is what sets great consultants
apart.
They also stress the importanceof repeating yourself in order

(04:31):
to get your message out there.
And I got to tell you, that'sone I struggle with constantly.
You know, with LinkedIn, BlueSky, whatever.
Sometimes it can feel likeyou're a broken record, just
trying to get your thoughts outthere.
They've reassured all of us thatit's necessary.
Mike shared some great adviceabout writing books as well.

(04:55):
You know, I've toyed with theidea of writing a book for a
very long time, but I keepputting it off for various
reasons.
There's actually two differentbooks in my mind that I would
love to write.
I feel like Mike's message inthis episode has pushed me to
explore this more deeply.
Lastly, while reflecting on UXconsulting in today's climate,

(05:16):
they both shared the same beliefthat we, as an industry, are not
at fault for not proving ourvalue.
Erica discussed how overhiringin tech driven by speculative
growth rather than actual valuecreation has contributed to the
industry turbulence.

(05:36):
Mike encouraged consultants tobe the helpers that Mr.
Rogers refers to during theseturbulent times.
You're using our skills tocontribute meaningfully to
communities, civic tech, orsmaller organizations that need
problem solving expertise.
As always, if you only have ashort period of time to listen,

(05:57):
I've added chapters for all thedifferent discussions so you can
jump around as much as youdesire.
Erika and Mike are always fun tolisten to and they always drop
some serious truth bombs thatcan be hard to hear, but
necessary for us to take in.
So let's get to the interview.

(06:19):
Please enjoy Erika Hall and MikeMonteiro.
Hi, Erica and Mike.
Welcome to the UX ConsultantsLounge.

Mike Monteiro (06:27):
Hello, Kyle.
How are you?

Kyle Soucy (06:30):
I'm good.
I'm good.
Now that all the tech is out ofthe way, the worst part, now we
can have fun.
So I absolutely love that wehave an opportunity to just
connect and chat today aboutconsulting.
I look up to you both so much,and I'm just always so grateful
for.

(06:50):
everything that you share, aboutyour business, about consulting.
So when I made a wishlist ofguests to have on this podcast,
you both were right at the topof the list.
So this is really just making myday, just so you know.

Erika Hall (07:04):
Ah, that's very kind.

You, um, you need better role models, Kyle.

Kyle Soucy (07:08):
Oh, yeah.
Well, for the listeners, couldyou start us off just by
explaining, the services thatyou offer and really the origin
story of Mule Design?

It's all you.

Erika Hall (07:21):
Oh, that's all me?
Wow.
Okay.
I'll do it.
I'll do it in reverse order.
The origin story is that, we metat another consultancy at the
beginning of this millennium,essentially, right as everything
was getting wobbly before thedot com crash.

(07:43):
Like we managed to have, acouple of good gigs right before
that.
And we really enjoyed the workof design consulting.
And we really thought that, thething that was most important is
being very selective with theclients because we saw how much,
those client relationships, Imean, if you're a consultancy,

(08:05):
like that's, you are what youeat and we said, okay, like we,
I like looking back on it, itseems wild.
That, I'd, only been working indesign consultancies for a
couple, three years at thatpoint to say like, yeah, let's
just start our own company, butsure.
And so we started, and it wasgood that we started in 2001

(08:27):
because there were no jobs atthat point.
Like the layoffs now are.
Bad.
And the industry is much, muchbigger.
If you think about everythingabout design and technology work
and all of that, but if you justimagined like a meteor hitting.
Design and technology.
That's what it was like, nobodyI knew had a job.

(08:49):
every startup folded, everyconsultancy folded, The people
who'd made money in the.
com boom went to Thailand andother people went into the
restaurant business.
Yeah, it was like that.
And so it worked out because wesaid, well, if we start our own
company, then we'll have jobs.

(09:10):
Like literally no one I knew hada job.
Except, Yahoo, which is so funnyin retrospect, Yahoo was the
only company, still standing atthat point.

I think you have to explain what Yahoo was.

Erika Hall (09:25):
still exists.

Kyle Soucy (09:27):
I still have a Yahoo email address as a backup for
all my emails.

Erika Hall (09:31):
yeah, it still exists.
It was a directory and, thenthey made a lot of little
products

Kyle Soucy (09:40):
it's funny to think back though to that time where
Yahoo was like the hot employer.
Everybody wanted to work there.

Erika Hall (09:46):
At that point in the, in say 2002, it wasn't that
everybody wanted to work there.
It was, they were literally theonly people hiring.
Anybody who did like a web ortechnology thing.
It was wild.
So we had to go down there.
Like we got our first client andthen we got a couple clients and

(10:07):
then we had a friend who'd goneto work there who started, who
hired us in and then we gothired.
So we did a lot of work withthem initially.
And, it was like, I ran intoeveryone I'd ever worked with
before, like this informationarchitect, this designer,

They looked so sad.
Yeah.

Erika Hall (10:32):
was fine.
There were a lot of good peoplethere, but the company was, uh,
one of the reasons that theyhired us to do a lot of work
initially was they were veryengineering driven and they were
trying to move like, it's whatGoogle did later to try to move
in more of a design direction.
So a lot of our work was alsomentoring teams.
It was even wild when we firstlooked for our first office

(10:54):
space because it was a littlebit like it is now.
There was so many vacancies andthere were so many organizations
that had leased a tremendousamount of square footage before
the crash and they were lockedinto these long leases and we'd
walk in to see sub leases andthere'd be three people at a
desk in 10, 000 square feet.

(11:14):
Or we'd walk in with a groupthat used to be a design agency
or was still a design agency.
And we said, Oh, we're startinga design agency.
And they said, Do you haveclients?
Do you know where to getclients?
Do you have extra clients?
Can we have some clients?
And that's when we backed outand said, okay, it seemed
daunting at that time to take ona whole commercial lease.
But, but we're like, we don'twant to be around this energy

(11:36):
of, hey, things were, you know,Awesome.
Two years ago, but now we'rereally scrambling because we
were starting a new thing and alot of people were cheering us
on because it seemed so bold tostart something at that time.
Cause everybody was sort oflooking backwards at what had
been with like the rah rah.

(11:56):
So it was similar energy to, towhat we just went through with
the zero interest rates and allthis nonsense and that big
crash.
And the fact that we werestarting something new felt
really, optimistic to people.
So we had a lot of goodwill anda lot of people, cheering us on
and helping us out and helpingus do our little networking and

(12:17):
stuff like that.
And so the first couple ofyears, were Rough because there
were times like, okay, we haveto find clients.
Where are the clients?
And everybody was trying tofigure out what to do since
there'd been so manyexpectations about, Oh, the new
economy and the internet ischanging everything.
And the expectations were sohigh and everything came

(12:38):
crashing down.
And, businesses were looking ateach other what is, what do we
use the web for anyway?
And so it took a while to comeback around.
And then by like, I'd say by2004, like a couple years into
it, things started to getsteady.
And we're like, okay, this is areal thing.

(12:59):
We moved offices.
And.
Then we started hiring people,et cetera, et cetera, and went
from there.

Kyle Soucy (13:06):
Oh, okay.
So you started hiring people in2004 and you started with just
the two of you, is that right?

Erika Hall (13:12):
Mm hmm.

Kyle Soucy (13:13):
That's, I was curious about that.

wait a minute, so, but we had people working
with us before that.

Erika Hall (13:20):
Yeah, I guess, cause it was just the two of us and
then we had, we pulled in,friends and colleagues of ours
to,

had contractors working for

Erika Hall (13:28):
Yeah, we did, yeah, we did have contractors.

Mostly because we couldn't trust ourselves to have
employees, like having employeesfelt like, a big deal, a lot of
responsibility, like we have totake care of these people.
And it's not that we didn't wantto, we, it felt like we, didn't
want to let people down.

Kyle Soucy (13:50):
I can only imagine.
I've never had employees and Iwould be so scared to, to have
to feed them along with myselfand have that pressure to do so.
Is, so is that something thatyou both aspired to do to, to
one day have employees?
Was that like the, I don't wantto say the benchmark of success,

(14:11):
but was that always a hope thatyou would have internal
employees?

Erika Hall (14:14):
Yes.
Hmmm

One of the earliest decisions we made, and
it turned out to be one of thebest decisions we made, was we
had a discussion about how bigwe wanted to be.
And for some reason, we bothfelt really comfortable at the
number 12.
I mean, with me, it's probablysome weird lapsed Catholic
bullshit where that's as manypeople as I can picture sitting

(14:39):
on one side of a table.
But, the number 12 always feltright.
So it's as much aspiring tohave, like, we wanted to work
with other people.
It's not so much that we wantedto have employees.
It's just, we wanted to workwith other people.
I really enjoy like working onstuff together.

(15:00):
Like side by side, or at awhiteboard or whatever.
I like being in a room withpeople working shit out.
And back then there was no like,let's hop on zoom and work shit
out, which I'm sure is just fineas well.
Back then that's what we werelooking for.
Um, but I think the smartestdecision we made was, but never

(15:22):
more than this.

Kyle Soucy (15:24):
more than 12.

Never more than 12.

Erika Hall (15:27):
Yeah, because I have friends, Who have consultancies
and they have been in, in growthmode, and it means something to
like, we want to get to acertain size.
And our perspective was alwaysabout the work, right?
When we named the company Mule,right?
And that was kind of a reactionto all of the ridiculous.

(15:49):
90s fancy consultancy names werelike, we're here to do the work.
And our tagline was designed towork because a mule is a
designed animal, right?
You take the majesty andstrength of a horse

I'm terrified of horses.

Erika Hall (16:10):
So you take the majesty and strength of a horse
and the smarts of a donkey or ajackass, depending on how we're
telling this, because a horse,horses are great.
I love horses, but you can get ahorse to, to do essentially
whatever you tell it to do.
And,

You, you, most people think jackasses are dumb,
which is, I mean, it just speaksto the, to the amazing horse
lobby,

Erika Hall (16:33):
Yeah.

Horses are really stupid.

Erika Hall (16:37):
No, they're not.
They have high emotionalintelligence.
They're

now you're just talking about, we have this
argument about the dog all thetime.

Erika Hall (16:46):
The dog is not stupid.
He has high emotional.
There are different kinds ofintelligence.
He has high emotionalintelligence, low spatial
orientation.
And mules have a reputation forbeing stubborn, but they just
have to trust that the personleading them or guiding them or
working with them, is not goingto endanger themselves or

(17:08):
endanger the animal.

Kyle Soucy (17:10):
Glad you explained it because I have that listed as
a question.
Why is it called Mule Design?
And it's a great reason.
I think that it's perfectlyfitting in that way.
So that's pretty brilliant.

Do you know the Grand Canyon story?

Kyle Soucy (17:25):
No,

When they first, uh, and by they, I mean white
colonizers and, genociders,started taking people on tours
of the Grand Canyon, or likelet's get to the, let's get down
there.
There's things we can kill downthere that we haven't killed
yet.
Uh, they, no, they, no, no, theystarted with horses.

(17:49):
And so it turns out when youtell a horse, Hey horse, go to
the bottom of that giant hole, ahorse will do just that in the
quickest way possible.
So everybody at the bottom ofthe Canyon got horse meat for
days.
after that, because those dumblittle fuckers just jumped.

(18:10):
And then eventually they, yeah,so they ran out of horses, and
then probably some guy namedShep had a donkey with them.
They said, let's take thedonkey.
And so they said, donkey, takeus to the bottom of the canyon.
And the donkey was like, JesusChrist, fucking colonizers.

(18:31):
Sure.
But found the trail, and thedonkey would go down the trail,
but if the donkey stepped on arock that was loose or
something, the donkey would juststop and say, Yeah, Shep, we're
done here.
We cannot go down this trail.
And that's why they have thatreputation for being stubborn.

(18:52):
They just won't do stupidthings.
They won't put themselves indanger, and if you're riding the
donkey, then you know, thatbenefits you as well.
So

Erika Hall (19:04):
but they're kind of small and so that's when you add
the horse to get the size andstature.

and that's how you make a mule

Erika Hall (19:12):
That's how you make a mule, so yeah,

in an ungodly fashion.

Erika Hall (19:18):
And I'll say that it is proven to be a really
fantastic, Name, as far as thewhole brand reputation goes,
because if somebody hires us, ifthe client hires us, and they
start, Asking us to do thingsthat aren't in their best
interest, or they say somethinglike, why are you arguing with

(19:40):
me?
We can just like point to thesign and be like, you hired a
company called Mule.
Because you needed, you neededan outside perspective to, to
save you from yourself and tolike, see the hazards and not
just be like, okay, sure.
I'll do whatever it's in thename.

Kyle Soucy (20:00):
Love it.
And, I guess this is a word tothe wise, for the listeners,
that if you have a logo or aname with horse in it, maybe you
should rethink that.

Erika Hall (20:10):
Horse.
Horse.
I'm, yeah, I'm trying to thinkif there are any, consultancies
called, horse.

Kyle Soucy (20:16):
was thinking about that too, I'm like, I don't
think I

Erika Hall (20:18):
Yeah, any horses?
Yeah.
So we called ourselves mule andit's fun for everybody.
Like clients always, that'salways their number one question
at some point they're like, sowhy are you called mule?
And it's not an arrogant namebecause the problem, so many
consultants come in arrogant.
And like we come in confident,but we come in listening, right?

(20:43):
Big ears, mules have big ears.
You know that there's so muchlore at this point.
We don't like, I don't thinkthat's important to the client
engagement so often, but

Yeah.
But I mean, if we're talkingabout like, fun facts about
mules, they're sterile.

Erika Hall (20:57):
They're sterile.
Yeah.
It's a chromosome mismatch, etcetera, et cetera.
Yeah, so when we would come in,especially like pitching against
other people, there, all theseconsultancies with these, silly,
names and we're just mule.
We're just here to work.
We're here to help you getsomething useful done.

(21:18):
And we're not going to pretendwe're special because we're
consultants, because so oftenwhen we go in to work with a
client teams, like a client teamOften has, so much knowledge, so
many skills, but just because ofthe way.
their position structurally inthe organization.

(21:39):
People aren't listening to themor they can't get a broad
perspective.
And so when we come in and we'relike, we're just here to partner
with you and get something done,we're not here to prove that
we're smarter than you.
If you have a good idea or youhave a question or you have
something that you need our helpwith, we're here to help you
with that.
And we're really here to listenand we start from listening.

(22:02):
And so I think all of that wholeentire vibe has been true from
day one.
Like we're not here to have anamed process or, put on airs or
anything, Or to come in.
Like we're better than anybodyworking internally.
And I think that's the problem,not just consultants, but that's
a problem with it.

(22:22):
And I'm seeing this with likedesigners and researchers have
trouble.
getting influence inorganizations because they don't
realize how arrogant they'recoming across.
But if a client asks us to dosomething stupid, we're gonna
not do it, right?
So that's the thing.
We're not going to come in, likewe're better than you, but we're

(22:44):
also going to meet you as anequal in this process.
So That's our whole vibe.

yeah, you know your shit.
We know our shit.
We work together.
We can make better shit Can yousay shit on this podcast?
It's Absolutely.

Kyle Soucy (23:00):
And you, when you first started, was it design and
research services and has itcontinued that or has it
changed?

It's the same

Erika Hall (23:09):
it's the same thing.
Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (23:11):
You go.
Yeah.

Erika Hall (23:12):
Yeah, cause we've always, we've always had a
really holistic perspective on,on this stuff.
And, and so we would come in andsay, initially when we first
started, it was like, we'll helpyou design websites.
Cause that's what the thing wasat the time.
And, And that includes thinking,it's like, what is this for?

(23:32):
What are you trying toaccomplish?
Everything was always reallygoals driven.
And if a potential client couldnot articulate a good goal and a
goal we could get behind, ifthey were just like, Oh yeah, we
just want to try a thing.
or we just want to spend somemoney.
We wouldn't take the work or wewant to do something evil.
It's what's your goal?
Okay.

(23:52):
What's the best way that we canhelp you meet that goal?
And yeah, initially it was a lotof okay, we're going to help
you, with your strategy.
We have to do research.
We have to think about thewriting and the content and the
words.
We have to think about thevisuals.
We have to think about theinformation architecture and the
structure.
It was always in as holistic away as possible and depending on

(24:18):
the project, like we used to goout and like we'd have the
technologists either, On ourstaff when we had employees or
we would bring them in.
And, yeah, sometimes we woulddeliver like the whole entire
production ready thing.
And then other times it would bemore the upfront, but the key
part is that we would never takeon work further down the process

(24:41):
without having done the researchand been involved in the
strategy upfront.
And, and, one of our, most funorigin stories around that is we
took on a project, in around soof 2005, 2006, we were a few
years into it, and we took on aproject that was like a referral
from a colleague of a friendsort of thing, and it wasn't

(25:02):
that big of a project, but theclient was An entrepreneur with
a lot of ego and, and at acertain point, he wanted things
done a certain way.
And that way it was, let's callit stupid.
And he had a print designer thathe was working with.
And he was like, Oh, my printdesigner made me these like
concepts that were of course,not at all.

(25:24):
Right.
And he's like, I want to use hisdesign.
And you just build all thisstuff out.
And we're like, that's literallya violation of the contract.
We won't do that.
And they said, no, you've got todo it.
And then I said, you're fired.
That was, I think, the firstclient we really fired.
And then they, and then they,

Kyle Soucy (25:42):
said that.

Erika Hall (25:44):
Well, yeah, I mean,

no, we're

Kyle Soucy (25:46):
did.

tired of it.

Erika Hall (25:46):
yeah, I said something pretty close to that.
I mean, I'm sure I didn't golike, you're fired.
I think I said, okay, accordingto the terms of our contract,
we're going to terminate theagreement and keep the deposit.
I'm pretty sure I said exactlythose words.
I'm like, that's a violation.
What you did is a violation ofour terms.
So we're just, and we did a halfand half thing.

(26:08):
Okay.
And I said, we're going to keepit.
And then That's also the projectwhere, I learned to never ever
give out my cell phone numbercause they were like calling me
on my cell phone, like mad, Imade this dude mad.
Like he yelled at me for a full10 minutes about like, how dare
you do this?
How do you do this?
And then hit one of the VPs waslike calling me on my, I didn't

(26:29):
answer my cell phone for a week.
And then we got a letter fromtheir fancy Silicon Valley law
firm demanding the deposit back.
And that's when we had to find alawyer.
And that was actually a hugefavor to us.
Like it was horrible at thetime.
Like so many consultant,consultancy learning
opportunities, places where youreally grow in your work, are at

(26:53):
the time miserable experiences.
And having these dudes call mycell phone mad at me.
And getting nasty grams fromfancy law firms?
Unpleasant.
But the effect of that is wewent through our network and we
said, Okay, we have to find alawyer.
And that's how we met Gabe, who,who became a really good friend

(27:13):
of ours and like a reallyimportant part of our business.
Cause we went in and we met himand He was also kind of just
starting out and he wrote aletter back to them that
essentially said you violatedthe contract, you're not getting
your money back, bye.
And they never bothered us againbecause it wasn't worth their
time and they saw that we hadrepresentation.

(27:34):
And then after that, Gabe helpedus do our incorporation, like
we'd been a partnership up tothat point.
And we did our corporation andhe helped us get everything set
for employees and he redid ourmaster's services agreement.
And he's been our partner incontract negotiations this whole
time, and if it weren't for thatjerk violating the contract, we

(27:55):
never would have met Gabe.
And because of the relationshipwith our lawyer, we were able to
take on, work with really hugeorganizations.
As a small organization, wecould work with anybody because
we knew that we had this backup.
And we successfully negotiated.
like contracts with justenormous companies that tried to

(28:18):
kick us around and we'd be likeno you can't kick us around and
so that really worked out.

Kyle Soucy (28:23):
Now that story, is so perfect and I remember
hearing it in the Fuck You PayMe talk, Mike that you gave for
Creative Mornings, was thatlike, I don't know, 2010 or 11
and still, to this day, that isthe best talk for, just the best
story for just that, It howimportant it is to have a
contract, have lawyers to beprofessional, and to keep the

(28:46):
relationship really just honestand make sure everybody knows
what they're responsible for.

And, and that talk ended up being the basis of
a book, yeah.
Which I just revised, about ayear ago.
And the amount of revision thatwent into that book probably,
tells me that I would havechanged that talk a lot.
The book was way too businessfriendly for my tastes ten years

(29:17):
later.

Kyle Soucy (29:18):
Okay.

And also, I mean, from a practical standpoint, 10
years ago, I was writing aboutclient services because most
designers at that point werestill working in agencies and as
contractors and consultants andwhatnot.
And one of the biggest or atleast the most practical change,

(29:38):
That doesn't involve dystopia,is that designers moved in
house,

Kyle Soucy (29:44):
Mm hmm.

Most designers are unemployed, but previous to
that most designers were inhouse.
Which, I mean, maybe there's arelationship there between those
two things.

Erika Hall (29:58):
You mean designers were working in consultancies
before that?

yes.
But uh, if, if, if you don't goto work for people, they can't
lay you off.

Kyle Soucy (30:07):
Right?

Right?

Erika Hall (30:09):
Yeah,

Kyle Soucy (30:09):
no such thing as job security

Erika Hall (30:11):
Oh, yeah.

Uh, Jobs.
Go ahead.

Erika Hall (30:14):
No, I was gonna say that uh, a few more people have
to die before we can reallywrite the history of Mule.

That's doable.

Kyle Soucy (30:23):
ha.
Ha, ha.

Erika Hall (30:25):
so many stories from this, but we had,

Wait, am I one of them?

Erika Hall (30:30):
No, you are not.
Oh my God.
You're not one of them.
We were working for a client,that actually laid off the
entire division we were workingfor while we were in the
building.

Kyle Soucy (30:41):
Awful.
Oh.

Erika Hall (30:42):
we had the

Oh, that was the worst.

Erika Hall (30:44):
that was the worst.
The project had been goinggreat.
We've been working with them forlike six months.
They just agreed to a big changeorder.
But meanwhile, I think what washappening is that the board had
decided to position for an IPO.
And we were working for a moreso called entrepreneurial part
of it.
Like, Oh, we're developing a newservice.
And so it was horrible becausewe had to walk past, everybody

(31:08):
was putting their stuff inboxes.
Like you shouldn't have to lookat your consultant or your
vendor, your contractor in theface while you're packing up if
you got laid off.
So that was horrible.
This company should have justsaid, Oh, we have an all hands
meeting.
It was so unprofessional, butthen I was really worried
because we just invoiced themfor like 70, 000 or something.

(31:33):
And my only thought was I wouldlike that money, please.
and and I was really worriedbecause they came back to us and
they're like, Oh, do you havedocumentation of the time?
And I was like, what a mess?
Cause we don't, because we wereworking with this whole group of
people who knew what we weredoing, but it turned out like

(31:53):
one senior vice president.
Had not gotten laid off and shejust went to the c suite and
said pay these guys just paythem And so we actually got paid
pretty quickly Because of therelationship and so that's the
other important thing to say isthat yes have the contract Yes
have the terms Explicit thateverybody agrees to, but the

(32:18):
thing that will save your baconevery single time is that
relationship.
Like just because there was anexecutive who could talk to the
other people, like this isabsolutely true with getting
paid.
If you need to get paid faster,if you need to get paid in a
particular way, if you need tochange something, it's not going

(32:38):
back to the contract.
The contract is the last stopgap.
The thing that matters, thething that will save your bacon
every time is having that goodrelationship with people.

Kyle Soucy (32:49):
Yeah.

I think

Erika Hall (32:51):
If you're a consultant and you're starting

a new project somewhere, there's 2 people who
you need to find on your 1stday.
And the 1st person is the personwho wanted the job that you were
brought in for.
Because that person can eitherbe your best friend or they will
fuck you at every corner out ofspite.

(33:14):
And it's much, much better tohave them be the former, which
means you have to, You have tobe incredibly empathetic to the
position that they were in,because yeah, there's a good
chance that they might have beenable to do the job.
And there's also a chance thatthey couldn't, but they will
have a lot of information tohelp you, that can help you do
the job.

(33:34):
And if you manage to worktogether, you're going to do a
much better job than separately.
So building some goodwill withthat person is tremendous.
The second person you need tofind is the person who cuts the
checks.
Not the person who approves theinvoices, but the person who
actually cuts checks.

(33:56):
Because one of the things thatwe found out, in times of famine
is that, companies will tell youlike net 15, net 30, don't take
anything above net 30, fuckthat.
But.
There are times when you need acheck tomorrow, and if you have
a relationship with the personwho can actually cut you a

(34:19):
manual check, you can get thatcheck tomorrow.
No matter what anybody says,that person can always cut you a
manual check, and they are muchmore inclined to do it.
If it's a person who theyalready have a relationship with
and those people are alleminently bribable.

(34:40):
So on day one, find out whatthey like.
It's usually it's.
Bourbon, chocolate, or weed, andyou bring it to them.

Erika Hall (34:50):
yeah.
So updating for these times,it's probably not cutting a
check right now.
It's probably sending a wire ordoing a bill.
com or whatever.
Come on.
We haven't had a check book in10 years.

It's the same thing.

Erika Hall (35:04):
Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (35:05):
But talking about the layoffs, you mentioned,
witnessing one way back when,but now we're in this time again
with these mass layoffs, withUXers.
The last couple of years havebeen turbulent to say the least
in consulting land.
A lot of us have beenquestioning if we've done enough
to demonstrate our value, in theindustry.
What do you think?

(35:26):
Do you think we can do better atdemonstrating our value?
Are we partly at fault for theseturbulent times?

Erika Hall (35:33):
Should I take that one,

Yeah, this is all yours.

Erika Hall (35:37):
this is all me, this is,

let me say this to start.
None of it is your fault.
Now Erica can do the nuancedwork.

Erika Hall (35:45):
no, yeah.
Cause this is what people havebeen talking about in that,
whether it's, design, research,writing, content strategy,
whatever, none of it is yourfault because, it all really
does go back to the zerointerest rate stuff, right?
These organizations vastlyoverhired because despite the

(36:08):
fact that, practitioners talkabout user experience, what most
tech organizations are in thebusiness of is shareholder
experience.
And it's not even allshareholders.
It's like the majority ownersand the analysts and their
quarterlies.
And so the thing that is a toughmessage is that so many people

(36:30):
have been hired.
Like if you look at the hockeystick, like hiring of like right
before and like through theearly, like 2020, the pandemic
times, whatever, They were nothiring people in order to
deliver business value bycreating things for customers
and users.
They were hiring people tosupport a growth narrative,

(36:54):
which means they didn't valuethe work.
They valued What hiring thosepeople said to their investors.
And that's really, tough to hearthat.
You were hired just as somebodycould say, look, we value
research.
We've hired a hundredresearchers.

(37:15):
So they never valued the work.
And so you can't prove yourvalue if you were never valued
in the first place by theorganization.
And so the way to tell.
What your relationship is tothat value is to say, okay, what
business are we actually in?
And are we in a real business oris my company really functioning

(37:38):
like, As security, are we firstand foremost an investment
asset?
And if you look at the narrativein the business and technology
news from the last 15 years,what was anybody talking about?
It was unicorn, unicorn,unicorn.
And it was who is getting abillion dollars in investment.
And that is where the story waslocated.

(38:00):
I mean, yeah, it was like, Oh,these companies are doing fun.
Okay.
Convenient things, but it wasn'tthat the design was so good.
It wasn't that the technologywas so good.
It was that this companyrepresented a tremendous amount
of investment.
And and then when the,financial, context changed, then

(38:23):
the growth story turned into, anefficiency story.
And so there's fuck all anybodycan do about that except go to
work for a real business thatactually makes money by creating
real products of value forcustomers.

Kyle Soucy (38:40):
Hmm.
It's kind of, I mean it'sreassuring.
To know that at least we're notat fault.
100%, but it's also frustratingbecause it's kind of out of our
hands, right?
What can we do but just ridethis wave and wait for good
businesses to come along withgood products that need us?

Erika Hall (39:00):
well, or, or,

Kyle Soucy (39:03):
Yeah.

Erika Hall (39:05):
because the problem is.
Just the way the business hasbeen funded and operated, you're
going to get the same results.
And so you either have to starta business or you have to go to
work for, a business that.
Is in business to do somethingreal.
And that's rough because all ofthe big money, like the high

(39:28):
salaries are not because of theamount of business value you're
creating through the products.
Again, the high salariesrepresent being part of this,
speculative world.
And we're seeing this now withAI.
So it's a tough message.

Kyle Soucy (39:47):
Yeah.

I mean this is the time that Mr.
Rogers prepared us for, right?
Mr.
Rogers famously told people, tolook for the helpers.
And I think the thing that getsforgotten a lot of times is that
when he said that, he wastalking to children.
And we're no longer children.
We're the adults.

(40:08):
So we shouldn't be looking forthe helpers.
We should be the helpers.
So it is time for us to behelping other people.
I mean, we have problem solvingskills.
And there are people who needproblems solved.
I mean, civic tech always comesto mind immediately.
Things at a large level, at afederal level, are obviously

(40:32):
fucked.
But, I mean, does your city needyou?
Does your town need you?
Does, your local PTA need you?
Does your public library needyou?
There's things at the locallevel where we can do a lot to
help people.
Now, are those going to pay you300k a year?
They are not, but you know what?

(40:52):
People don't normally make 300ka year.
I think, not, not to piss on aworker's ability to make money.
Everybody should be able to makea ton of money, but we have been
making salaries that aredisproportionate.
to what other people have beenmaking for a long time.

(41:13):
Now, I would love to fix thisproblem by paying everybody what
we've been getting, but I don'tthink that's going to happen, in
the near future.
But it might be time for us toreset our expectations about
what we can get.
For the jobs that we can dohelping people, there's a reason
That you know, the robot carcompanies will pay you, 300

(41:35):
grand a year But also they'renot going to do that for very
long I got a friend who you knowJust got a job at a stupid robot
car company and he got laid offlike within four months you can
go work for the city whereyou'll make you know a fraction
of that but Still enough tohopefully You know, do okay.

(41:56):
And, it's difficult work, butyou're actually helping people.
We need to become the helpersthat people need, not just sit
around waiting for, oligarchs tostart companies where, we can
go, Grab our 300k a year for alimited time and then, get
kicked off the boat and then besad.

(42:18):
And,

Erika Hall (42:19):
volatility is baked in, right?
What we should be having, likewhat everybody wants, what
people as say the users andcustomers of technology products
want is a product that doessomething really useful and is
reliable Is mostly the same fora long time, right?

(42:43):
People want things to work.
And if there's new technologythat does something really
useful, great.
But the problem is that so manyof these so called technology
companies, the products arereally, and we're seeing this
with AI too, especially now isthat.
There's all this talk about, oh,we're creating digital products
and services, but at the base,there are under employed,

(43:05):
underpaid people actuallyproviding the real services,
whether it's content moderation,like horrifying content
moderation jobs.
That are being, run out of theglobal south.
Whether it's people who are, ohGod, what's it called with AI?
The human in the loop, right?
Like with AI companies, human inthe loop.
You have people in thePhilippines who are actually

(43:26):
watching things through cameras,right?
It's like the Wizard of Oz wherethe technology layer is actually
hiding the real workerexploitation.
And so we have people in the U.
S.
making these big salarieshelping these companies deliver,
shareholder value while alsoparticipating in this
exploitation.
And so you have to look at thewhole system and look at your

(43:48):
role in it and do things like,collective action, either like
unionization is one way to docollective action to push back
on this, but just havingsolidarity.
With other workers, even ifyou're all working in the same
system, even if those workersare in another country, on
another continent, in anotherrole, we have to stop focusing

(44:12):
on each of our own individual,jobs.
And, and really look at thelarger picture about how all of
these different roles fittogether and stop listening to
the lies, right?
Stop listening to the PR spinand saying, what is this
business really doing?
Because I can tell you, it's notthat hard to find out what the

(44:33):
actual business model is.
And a lot of times it's not areal business.
If you look at these businesses,they will never, like Nextdoor
is a toxic cesspool.
It has been a money losing toxiccesspool for its entire
inception.
And they can't change how itworks because they only, make
what money they do by increasingengagement.

(44:54):
And the things that increaseengagement, it is the toxicity.
It is the racism.
It is like having this hysteriaabout property crime, that's
what makes next door go.
And it's been money losing, butit's had this hugely, toxic
effect in how neighbors inneighborhoods communicate with
each other.
I mean, it's also a great placeto buy and sell stuff

(45:15):
apparently, but there are all ofthese digital services that are
bad businesses, but they stillfunction as vehicles to transfer
wealth.

And I know folks who are UX designers at Amazon
and in their mind, they seethemselves You know, much closer
to like senior management andthose folks like that's those
are our people so they identifywith them.

(45:48):
But if you take a look at, theactual structure of the company
and who's affecting what and howmuch everybody there, you're so
much closer.
To like a warehouse worker thanyou are to senior leadership.
And yet we have theseallegiances, these alliances
with, you know, I, I want toimpress senior leadership and

(46:13):
you don't see the warehouseworkers and the drivers as part
of your brother, sisterhood,other hood.
And I think, at some point westopped identifying as workers.
And just, you know, UX peoplehave always identified as
temporarily embarrassedmillionaires, that's a problem

Kyle Soucy (46:34):
Now, you mentioned before, Mike, that we have to be
the helpers.
And I think that Is a greatsegue into really what I wanted
to talk with you two about iswith business development and
marketing and something I thinkthe listeners can learn a lot
from you on.
Now, you mentioned in your book,design is a job how transparent
you've been over the years aboutthe mistakes you've made in

(46:55):
running your business andWaiting for the phone to ring
was one of them that youmentioned and I'm very curious
to know, how do you handlemarketing and sales for mule
design?

be out there.
People need to know who you are.
People need to know what yourpoint of view is.
And I mean, like I said in thebook, the easiest way for people
to know that is if you write itup, put it where people can see
it.
If you're interested in likedeceitful patterns.
Write about deceitful patterns,not once, but all the fucking

(47:31):
time constantly be the person.
Who, when somebody's thinking,Oh, we've got all these
deceitful patterns.
We need to get rid of somebodygoes, I know exactly who to get.
They write about it all thetime.
And just to segue to Erica here,she's a demon on LinkedIn.

Kyle Soucy (47:50):
Yeah.
Very active

That was your cue to take

Erika Hall (47:53):
was, that was my cue.
I have fun.
I talk to my colleagues who runconsultancies all the time and
it has been a really rough time.
Like the tide went out, thingsare really great.
And then all of a sudden, andthat's rough.
That's rough.
And there's an impulse and I'veseen this a lot.
There's an impulse to bereactive and say, Oh, what do

(48:15):
the businesses want, what do thebusinesses need?
And the thing is, if you're aconsultant, you need to, push
organizations in the directionthey need to go.
So you need to start from like,why am I doing this?
What's my work?
What's my project?
Who are my clients?
Like, how?

(48:36):
Do I want to help them?
How can I help them?
What's realistic?
Like You really have tounderstand, like I said, why
business is like it is and notthe story of it, not the story
of creating user value, but youreally need to understand how
businesses operate and how yourwork, intersects with that.

(48:58):
And then, yeah, figure out yourmessages and you start doing the
consulting In what you're sayingpublicly, like you have your
thing and the thing that like,cause we yell at people with
books to market all the timetoo.
And everybody underestimateshow, much repetition you need.

(49:20):
And so, our work really tends tobe.
Word of mouth.
Cause we've been doing it solong and because there's so many
in house teams, like now we'rereally, we really are like
consultant consultants, youknow?
We don't do the so called designexecution anymore.
We go in and we helporganizations.
We help internal teams.
We do a lot of, training,strategy, consulting, that sort

(49:42):
of stuff.
But whatever your thing is, Youjust talk about it constantly
and you provide your expertise,you just got there and you help
people, in public, whether it'slike writing up, here's what you
should be doing, here's how youshould be thinking about these
things, write your, youropinions, your thoughts, but
always think what can I put outthere that will help people?

(50:05):
And part of that is.
Here's how you need to do thework.
Here's what you need to focuson.
Here's how you need to thinkabout it.
Like one of the things I did acouple of years ago, cause
everybody I talked to reallyapproaches design research, I
would say wrong.
And even in my book, I've neverfully.

(50:26):
Diagram this.
And I just.
wrote out a design researchprocess for people and put it
out there and that's beenhelpful for people and They're
like, oh I got something usefuland now I know to go to you if
I'm having a problem with thisSo just be really clear on What
problem you help solve?
And Say that over and over say Iwill help this sort of

(50:48):
organization with this sort ofsituation Please hire me for
that.
And just say it over and overand over again and provide
examples.
And what I would say is think ofit like always being in
conversation with your potentialclients.
Cause, cause you have to listentoo.
And that's, just how I am.
And what I get, what I see otherpeople doing is just reacting

(51:12):
like, Oh no, everybody's talkingabout AI.
So I have to be about AI nowbecause I'm afraid of getting
work.
And I understand the fear of nothaving work, but you have to put
that aside and say, if I'm hereoffering my expertise and my
skills, What are those and whatshould people be doing?
And if people are doingsomething stupid, don't go along

(51:34):
with the stupid thing, eventhough you know better, because
you're afraid of where your nextclient's coming from.

Kyle Soucy (51:42):
And, getting your opinions out there, whether it
be social media or writing booksthe way you both have, I'm
curious to know, would yousuggest writing a book as a
means of business developmentfor all UX consultants?
Or would you say that, it's goodenough just to be active on
social media?
Is it

would,

Kyle Soucy (52:00):
Yeah.

um, Oh God, it's never worth the effort.
Um, writing books is hard.

Kyle Soucy (52:06):
Yeah.

I mean, and writing books is certainly a
thing you can do if you're inthe mind to write a book, but I
don't think anybody who doesn'twant to write a book should sit
down and say, I have to write abook.
I think, everybody chats.
Everybody talks to each other.
Everybody has opinions.
And I think more often than not,we save our time.

(52:32):
Our opinions for when we're insmall trusted groups, and then
when we're out on social media,especially, linked in, which,
for some reason, we think weneed to behave like our best
professional selves and we.
Hold we hold back on ouropinions.
We hold back on the shit that weactually want to say the stuff

(52:53):
that gets people's attention andI would say just, the
conversations that you'rehaving, with your closest
friends, put those whereeverybody can see him.
Like, I think this thing thatwe're all doing now is stupid.
I'm gonna tell you why we allhave conversations like that.
Put them where people can seethem.

(53:16):
And, after a year of doing that,you might say, fuck this.
I want to write a book aboutthis crap.
And if that's the case, do it.
But if that's not how you'rewired, don't do it.
Because if you're doingsomething because you think you
should, and not because you'redriven to it, it's going to
suck.
It's going to suck for you.

(53:36):
And it's going to suck foreverybody around you, but mostly
it's going to suck for you.

Kyle Soucy (53:40):
It's just, be forced, yeah,

Right.
But I would encourage people,just get on LinkedIn and be like
your most authentic, unhingedself.
Be fearless.
And,

Erika Hall (53:53):
Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (53:54):
Love it.

Erika Hall (53:54):
Cause, cause, cause what I'll tell you is, and this
is a lesson we learned, over andover, the years is that when we
were really honest with ourclients, they responded really
well, especially high statuspeople who are used to
everybody, holding back or likeorganizations are so full of

(54:16):
fear and people lying to eachother.
And your job as a consultant isto cut through that, right?
Because Lying and doing thepolitics you want to talk about
wasting time and money?
It's people just performing,doing work.
And so if you can be, reallyjust candid, that's what people

(54:40):
want, And, that's what peoplewant from an outside advisor.
But honestly, just constantlyrepeat what you do and what
people can hire you to do overand over and over again.
Don't expect that people know.
Have your little pitch and tellpeople, just be like, Hey, I
want to do this kind of work forthis kind of organization

(55:02):
because I can help solve thiskind of problem.
The secret kind of works.
Only in the sense that ifeverybody you interact with
knows what.
you do, then they're primedwhenever they're in a
conversation.
They're like, Hey, I know Kyledoes this And I know Kyle wants
to do this kind of work.

Kyle Soucy (55:22):
That's interesting that you say, like, it's okay to
be repetitive, and that's one ofthe things I think a lot of
people fear is that they're justrepeating themselves.
And but,

It's necessary like especially with, you know,
the algorithms that are controlrun all these little networks
now like like, weird littlespiders and shit um the odds
that you're going to saysomething and it's going to get
seen are just assume they'rezero.

(55:52):
So I mean, if you're trying tosell a book, you got to post
about it like four times a day.
And I mean, it might feel like alot to you, but if I post about
it four times a day, the chancesthat you'll see it are maybe
10%.
So think about it that way.

(56:12):
If I'm trying to fill up aworkshop, I need to be posting
about it constantly or peoplejust don't see it.
Don't assume that people likeyou need to be tired of doing it
just just to ensure thatsomebody might see it.

Kyle Soucy (56:30):
That's super helpful.

Erika Hall (56:32):
The reason why we have so much, as they say.
Permission to talk about ourshit is because which we really
genuinely try to be helpful andyou can tell the difference when
you see like the hustlers andthe grifters posting stuff and
They're self promoting.
You can tell the differencebetween like the 10 things I

(56:55):
learned about crypto by sendingmy kid to boarding school posts
versus the like, oh, I'm outhere talking about my
professional subject of interestbecause I am genuinely
interested in it and I reallywant to help you.
And if all of your selfpromotion comes from, I
genuinely want to help people douseful things in the world.

(57:17):
I genuinely want to improve theway things are done.
And it comes from that placeforemost.
And you're in conversation aboutthat and you're not just
blasting out like a cannedpolished message over and over
again, you can talk aboutyourself all the time, in terms
of I really do want to help youwith this stuff I don't even

(57:38):
care if you hire me, I don'tcare if you buy my book, but
please, God, be more effective,because that makes the world
better for everybody.

Kyle Soucy (57:46):
I needed to hear that, for sure, because self
promotion is hard, and you dofeel like, ugh, do I sound icky
or whatever, so it's it'sdefinitely good to hear.

Erika Hall (57:55):
Yeah.
If you're worried about that,you don't, right?

Yeah,

Kyle Soucy (57:59):
So just to wrap up here, one question I ask
everyone just as a rapid fire,how would you describe UX
consulting in one word?

Erika Hall (58:08):
Lost.

Kyle Soucy (58:09):
Hmm.

dead

Kyle Soucy (58:12):
Say more.
What, what is that?
reason why

Erika Hall (58:21):
I'll start lost because not leading we've been
through so many downturns.
We totally understand the fearof, Oh God, where's my next meal
coming from?
But if you're a consultant, youneed to have a point of view.
And I think what I'm seeing frompeople is just, is reacting.
And if you're gonna, lead thefield, lead the field.

(58:44):
And instead, everybody's likewandering around because they
don't understand the businessfundamentals.
that got us here.
And that's, that's why theconsultants are lost.
You have to come out there witha really strong point of view on
what's going on.
And yes, sorry, things areshitty right now, but we do soft

(59:06):
work.
This is what I always come backto.
If you're a UX consultant, youdo soft work.
you do not have a hard job.
And so if you've chosen to dothis, have some backbone about
having a point of view andstanding up to the organizations
who are abusing and exploitingpeople and just using them to

(59:28):
make their shareholders a lot ofmoney.

I said UX consulting is dead and, um, I
can maybe throw a little bitmore nuance on that.
UX consulting as currentlypracticed should die because
it's awful.
And look, nobody brings in aconsultant because things are
going well.
Nobody brings in a consultantbecause the machine is working

(59:52):
perfectly.
People bring in a consultantbecause there's a problem and
they think that a consultant canfix that problem.
And yet most consultants, whenthey get put into a situation,
they attempt to fit in and theyattempt to be appreciated and
they attempt to be valued andthey attempt to be liked.

(01:00:13):
And what you actually need to dois you need.
Like you're being brought into abroken machine.
You need to be noisy and youneed to be loud and you need to
be willing to point out thatthings are broken.
And everybody who hires aconsultant has a humiliation
kink.
They're surrounded by peoplewho've been telling them that
things are going great for along time.

(01:00:36):
And they just realized that allof those people have been lying
to them.
They think because things areobviously not going great.
The last thing they want issomebody else in the room
attempting to be liked andattempting to be their friend
and telling them that things arebeing great.
Be the person who's willing totell them that things suck.

(01:00:57):
Be the person who's willing tobe honest with them.
If they're good people to beselling your labor to, then they
are hungry for that message.
They are dying for somebody tobe honest.
They are dying for somebody tosound like an authentic human
being.
Right now we're spending so muchenergy.

(01:01:18):
Teaching machines how to soundlike humans and teaching humans
how to sound like machines.
If I go on LinkedIn, forexample, I honestly cannot tell
the difference between AI andhuman posts because you're all
starting to sound the same.
And you're all starting to soundboring and bland as fuck.

(01:01:39):
And then somebody will comethrough, somebody will come
through and start talking aboutlike how bad everything is at
this company and how stupid myboss is, or there'll be like, I
just wrote a fantastic book thatyou all should read and that
stuff just.
It's like sunshine comingthrough clouds, and that stuff

(01:02:00):
is riveting because there's solittle of it right now.
And honestly, if it helps peoplethink of yourselves as the
world's most advanced AI Becauselike you've achieved humanity.
Congratulations.
Now fucking own it.

Kyle Soucy (01:02:16):
Awesome.

Mike Monteiro (01:02:16):
Go out there and be your most human selves.
And that includes telling.
people to fuck off every once ina while because they need to
hear it.

Well, this has been awesome.
Awesome.
I'm so glad.
On that note, I think that's aperfect place to wrap it up.
So this has been wonderful.
I'm so glad you both could joinme today and just share.
some of your consulting wisdomwith us.
I wish we had a whole anotherhour because there's so much
more I would love to talk about,but I'm so appreciative of your

(01:02:45):
time.
And for the listeners, I'llinclude, in the show notes links
to Erica and Mike's books, theirworkshops, and any other
resources that we've mentioned.
And thank you so much, bothagain for joining me in the
lounge.

Erika Hall (01:02:58):
Thank you.

Kyle, it's been a pleasure.

Likewise.

Thank you for having us.

Yeah.
Take care.

Bye

All right.
That wraps up this episode.
Thanks for joining me.
So do you have a topic or aquestion that you would like us
to explore on a future episodeof the UX consultants lounge?
Perhaps there's an anonymousconsulting story you want to
submit.
If so, click on the link in theshow notes to submit your story

(01:03:28):
or question from the podcastwebsite.
Until next time, keep thatconsultancy going.
I can't wait to have you back inthe lounge for our next episode.

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Erika Hall and Mike Monteiro - Consulting with Backbone: Authenticity, Humanity, and the Value of Hard Truths

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Erika Hall and Mike Monteiro - Consulting with Backbone: Authenticity, Humanity, and the Value of Hard Truths