July 1, 2024 • 40 mins
In this special introductory episode, we get to know Kyle, the host of our UX Consultant Podcast. Celebrating her 20th year in business as an independent UX research consultant, Kyle shares her journey, the motivations behind starting this podcast, and what listeners can expect in future episodes. Joined by her children, Roger and Gabriel, Kyle answers some of the most frequently asked questions about her career, offering a personal and heartfelt look into her life as a consultant.
Show Highlights:
- Introduction to Kyle (00:00:00) - Kyle introduces herself and her company, Usable Interface, and reflects on her 20-year career as an independent UX research consultant.
- Why This Podcast? (00:02:00) - Kyle discusses the reasons for starting the podcast, emphasizing the need for real talk about consulting, especially in the current economic climate.
- What to Expect (00:03:00) - An overview of the podcast's format, including interviews with other UX consultants, client appearances, listener questions, and more.
- Who is This Podcast For? (00:05:00) - Defining the target audience for the podcast: independent contractors, consultants, freelancers, and solopreneurs in the UX field.
- About Kyle and Her Consultancy (00:07:00) - Kyle answers common questions about her business, Usable Interface, with her kids, Roger and Gabriel, asking the questions.
- Kyle's Journey into UX and Consulting (00:12:00) - Kyle shares her path from working in a Fortune 500 company to becoming an independent consultant.
- The Leap into Consulting (00:20:00) - How Kyle transitioned from a corporate job to starting her own consultancy.
- Finding Work as a Consultant (00:23:00) - The importance of networking, building connections, and establishing credibility through speaking and writing.
- Challenges and Rewards (00:28:00) - The best and worst parts of consulting, according to Kyle.
- Advice for Aspiring Consultants (00:30:00) - What it takes to be a successful UX consultant, including mastering your craft, being self-motivated, and building a strong network.
- Specialization in UX (00:34:00) - Kyle discusses whether to specialize in a particular area of UX and shares her experience as a qualitative UX researcher.
- Bloopers and Wrap-Up (00:38:00) - Enjoy some funny bloopers with Kyle and her kids. Kyle wraps up the episode and teases the next episode featuring a guest interview with Karen McGrane.
Links and Resources:
- Connect with Kyle on LinkedIn.
- Learn more about Kyle's UX Research consultancy, Usable Interface.
- Recommended podcast: The Deliberate Freelancer.
Submit a question or story: Have a question or topic that you'd like us to cover in a future episode and/or want to share an anonymous consulting story? Submit your questions and stories.
Don't want to miss an episode? Be sure to sign up for the podcast newsletter.
Thanks for tuning in! Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform.
I can’t wait to have you back in the lounge for our next episode!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kyle (00:16):
All right, let's do this.
I'm going to start by tellingyou a little bit about myself
and why I'm doing this podcast.
So this year I'm celebrating my20th year in business as an
independent UX researchconsultant.
My company is called UsableInterface, and I offer services
(00:39):
in conducting user research,usability testing, research
strategy, and training.
I'll include a link to mycompany website in the show
notes.
But celebrating this 20 yearmilestone has been a period of
deep reflection for me.
I would hope that after twodecades in business that I'd
have it all figured out, butthat's just not the case.
(01:03):
I do not have all the answersabout consulting, that's for
sure, but I do have a greatnetwork of other independent
consultants.
And whenever I catch up withother consultants, I always
learn something new.
I think having peers to learnfrom is invaluable.
(01:24):
And I want to share that withall of you.
I'm always striving to become abetter consultant as I'm sure
most of you are as well.
So this is an opportunity forall of us to share stories and
learn together.
Peter Drucker, who's the quotefather of management, he always
(01:44):
insisted on asking himselfbefore writing any new book, why
this book now?
And I think it's a really greatquestion to ask yourself about
anything you're putting out intothe world.
So, Why this podcast now?
In my opinion, this is needednow more than ever.
(02:07):
With the current economy and allthe layoffs in tech, the
attractiveness of going out onyour own and consulting or
freelancing has significantlyincreased.
So with all these new peopletrying to get their feet wet
with consulting, there needs tobe some real talk about what to
(02:29):
expect and the reality of it.
I find there's also a need for arich source of insights,
stories, professional growth,and support for veteran UX
consultants.
And lastly, probably selfishly,sometimes it's lonely being an
(02:50):
independent consultant.
And this podcast gives me areason to reach out more to
other people, both inside andoutside of my network.
Basically I wanted a place tohelp each other with the
challenges of consulting andcelebrate the wins.
So, what can you expect in thispodcast?
(03:13):
There are going to be a lot ofdiscussions with other
independent UX consultants, andthis is really going to be a
relaxed, fun, casual hangout forUX consultants to vent, share a
laugh, and maybe some warstories.
There will be some appearancesfrom clients and other people
that I think we can learn agreat deal from.
(03:35):
And there will even be a chancefor listeners to interact here
with submitting questions oftheir own with some Q and a.
And if y'all are brave enough,some anonymous consulting
stories, if you're willing toshare them and there'll be a
link in the show notes as well,where you can submit your
questions and stories.
(03:55):
I want to note here that there'snothing I hate more than making
small talk and havingsuperficial conversations.
That's not what this is about.
It's not what you're going tofind here.
We're going deep.
We're going to have realconversations about the wins and
the losses.
So who is this podcast for?
(04:17):
I think as the name entails.
It's obviously for people whohave their own consulting
business and those that areinterested in learning more
about it.
But I want to take a moment todefine Consulting business.
There are many terms that can beused to define someone who is a
UX consultant.
(04:38):
It could be independentcontractor or consultant, a self
employed freelancer,solopreneur, gig worker.
All these terms could be usedfor business owners who provide
set services to a company andare not on the company's
payroll, like an internalemployee.
And for the folks in the UnitedStates, to put it in terms of
(05:01):
IRS tax forms, this podcast isgeared towards people who are
1099, not W 2 contractors.
Again, this just means that youare not on the company payroll
and you have control over whenand how you work.
With a W 2 employee, the numberof hours and schedules they work
(05:24):
are dictated by the employer.
And they are given instructionprovided with tools, training,
equipment, whatever they need tocomplete the work.
That is not the case here.
You know, I went back and fortha lot about whether or not to
name this podcast UX FreelancersLounge, but I decided to stick
to consultants because I believeit denotes that this is for
(05:47):
folks that are in business forthemselves full time and not
just moonlighting on the side.
Now, there's nothing wrong withpart time freelancing, but there
may not be as much value in thiscontent for those folks.
They'll get something good outof it, but this is really for
the people that are hanging outthat shingle and this is their
business.
(06:09):
And I want you to know too, thatI'm not at all precious about
the term consultant.
If someone refers to me as afreelancer, I don't really care
at all.
I know some people do, and I'msure it'll be a topic of
discussion with some of myguests on the show.
So that'll be interesting tochat about, but UX is a large
(06:29):
umbrella as we all know.
So this podcast is forconsultants offering services in
design, research, information,architecture, content, and other
tangential areas like UXcoaching and training.
Of course, consultants fromother fields may get a lot of
value out of the content tosince there's crossover with
many topics.
(06:50):
In fact, one of the podcasts Ienjoy the most is called the
deliberate freelancer, and it'shosted by a freelance writer,
but her content really appliesto all freelancers.
I'll add a link in the shownotes as well to this podcast.
Now to learn a little more aboutmyself and my consultancy, I
thought I'd review the questionsthat I get asked most often
(07:14):
about my business.
Before I do that, And just aside note that this podcast is
not going to be about just meand my business.
I want to reassure you that therest of the episodes are going
to focus on my guests and theirstories and experiences.
I feel the need to say thisbecause I'm very uncomfortable
(07:36):
with self promotion, which we'lltalk about, and this podcast is
not an ad for my business.
It's important for me that youknow that.
Now, the topic of self promotionis super important and
interesting, and we'lldefinitely delve into that with
some of my guests.
I'm actually hoping to have agreat author on the topic as a
(07:57):
guest.
So, please So keep your fingerscrossed for me that we'll be
able to book them.
I guess we're going to call thisa hopeful Easter egg.
So in order to review thequestions I get asked most often
about my consultancy, I thoughtI do something fun and a little
different and have my kids askme these questions because
(08:19):
they're a big part of the reasonwhy I do.
I chose to become a consultantand why I've decided to keep my
consultancy going for the last20 years.
So I have two kids and wheneverpossible, I like to include them
in my work.
My youngest, who is 11 andyou'll meet in a moment is
(08:40):
always super curious about whatI'm working on and he often has
just really awesome insights.
He'll look at a presentation ora report that I'm creating and
he'll ask.
Great questions that often helpme get unstuck, and I'm kind of
blown away every time thishappens.
(09:01):
So they've both been having alot of fun helping me pick out
the music and the art for thispodcast.
My husband is a UX designer, soour kids are very well versed in
the world of product usabilityand user experience, uh probably
to a fault.
So let's get them in here andlet me introduce you.
(09:22):
Alright.
Hey guys.
Welcome to the lounge.
Hi.
Hey.
So, we have Roger here, who's14.
Hi.
And we have Gabriel, who's 11.
Hi.
I was telling the listenersabout how you both have been
involved in helping me makedecisions about the name of the
(09:42):
podcast, the cover art, and themusic.
And it's been a fun project sofar.
And I'm just super grateful forall your help and for joining me
in this introduction where youget to interview me.
Oh,
Roger (09:56):
thanks.
Kyle (09:57):
Yeah, same.
No, thank you.
And how are you guys feelingabout interviewing me about my
work?
Roger (10:05):
Little nervous.
Gabriel (10:06):
This would be a first.
Yeah.
I've never done this.
Yeah.
Roger (10:10):
I'd be nervous.
What are
Kyle (10:12):
you nervous about?
That
Roger (10:14):
I'm going to laugh.
Kyle (10:16):
That's okay.
Laugh.
Roger (10:18):
Okay.
It's
Kyle (10:18):
it's gonna be fun.
And, hopefully, maybe you'lllearn something about me you
didn't know before or hopefullyyou'll find it interesting.
Roger (10:26):
Yeah.
Kyle (10:27):
I
Gabriel (10:27):
probably
Kyle (10:27):
will.
Roger (10:28):
Alright.
Yeah.
Kyle (10:29):
Do you guys want to start by telling the listeners a
little about yourself?
Roger (10:34):
Um,
Gabriel (10:34):
sure.
Roger (10:34):
Okay.
You can go first, Gabe.
Gabriel (10:37):
Alright.
So, well, as you know, my nameis Gabe, and, I like football.
And, I like sports.
Kyle (10:47):
Yeah.
That's great.
Okay.
And how about you, Rog?
Roger (10:53):
My name is Roger, and I'm really into Magic the Gathering.
And I'm really passionate aboutit.
And I also like reading a lot.
And just hanging with my friendsand stuff.
Gabriel (11:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Roger (11:07):
And music.
Music is a big part of my life.
Kyle (11:10):
It is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The buds are constantly in theears.
Awesome.
Alright.
So, I've given you both the listof questions that I get asked
most often about my business,and you're going to take turns
asking me them.
So, who wants to start first?
(11:31):
I'll start.
I
Roger (11:32):
will.
Okay.
Kyle (11:33):
Oh, no, you can
Gabriel (11:34):
go,
Kyle (11:34):
Roger.
Roger (11:34):
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Kyle (11:37):
So Rog, before you start, I want you both to know that you
can ask me any additionalquestions that you'd like.
If my answer prompts you to wantto ask another question, like a
follow up question, you can askit.
Also if you don't understand myanswer, or if I use a word that
(11:57):
you don't know, Please don't beafraid to ask.
That's okay.
Okay?
Okay.
All right.
Okay, Roger.
You can go ahead.
Roger (12:06):
All right.
How did you end up in UX and whydid you decide to go out on your
own as a consultant?
Kyle (12:13):
Okay, there are two main reasons that I decided to become
a consultant.
One reason was work related, andthe other was personal.
So, just to start with the workrelated reason, I truly just
wanted to be trusted to do myjob.
It's kind of funny how oftentimes in certain organizations,
(12:38):
the moment you get hired, youlose all credibility.
Roger (12:41):
Yeah.
Kyle (12:42):
You know, there can be tons of internal politics that
get in the way and just keep youfrom doing good work.
In my last internal job, I wasworking for a Fortune 500
company.
Wow.
Do you know what that
Gabriel (12:57):
yeah, it's one of the top 500 companies in the world
that makes a lot of money and itdoes good, like Amazon.
Kyle (13:04):
It's one of the largest 500 companies in the country.
And the list is done by FortuneMagazine, that's why it's called
the Fortune 500.
So it was a large organizationthat I worked for.
And they would push back a ton,on recommendations, That anybody
(13:25):
internally would really have butthe moment a consultant walked
in making the sameRecommendations it was as if the
Word of God was spoken.
Yeah, and they just they did itYou know, and I thought wow,
that's what I want to do I wantto be that consultant coming
into the room and being trustedto Do my job.
(13:46):
So so you just want to beresponded.
I would I would Yeah, yeah, ithad, that's right.
I wanted to be respected and Iwas completely burned out by a
toxic corporate culture thatjust seemed to promote the
people that weren't rocking theboat.
So a lot of folks were just kindof failing upwards and I needed
(14:08):
to get out of that environment.
And I'm sure this soundsdramatic, but I also felt a lot
like I was in a jail whilesitting in my cube
Roger (14:19):
in
Kyle (14:20):
the office.
Do you guys know what an officecube is?
Yeah.
Yeah, like, oh, it's just.
It's depressing and there was noflexibility at all with my work
hours and working from home 20years ago Was completely unheard
of.
I know that's changed a lot now,but management at that company
(14:40):
They wanted to see the back ofyour neck at all times I felt a
lot like that main character inthe movie Thank you Office
space, which is one of myfavorite movies and I know you
guys have not seen it But oneday when you're a little older,
I think you have to be a littleolder to appreciate it and to
see it but that was me that maincharacter.
(15:02):
That's just how I felt likesuffocated in a corporate
environment and it kind of leadsme to the personal reason Why I
became a consultant and actuallywhere you guys kind of come into
play, right?
so flexibility with my work isExtremely important to me and I
knew from a very young age thatI wanted a family My mom, you
(15:26):
know, grandma, you know was astay at home mom and I I knew
that I wanted to do that, but Ialso knew that I wanted and
needed to work.
It was always in the back of mymind and it was a worry, you
know, when deciding what I wasgoing to major in, in college.
(15:47):
And this sadly is not somethingboys tend to worry about.
They're, they're rarely everworrying about raising kids when
choosing their career path.
Roger (15:58):
Yeah, that's true.
Kyle (16:00):
I guess there is some truth to that.
And, you know, when I waslittle, or not even little, but
younger and figuring out mycareer, I always wanted to be a
psychologist or a psychiatristwhen I grew up.
I was absolutely fascinated withhuman behavior and why people do
the things they do, and I stillam.
(16:22):
So my first major in college waspsychology.
But I had a computer class as anelective and, technology and
programming just came super easyto me.
So a professor suggested that Iswitch my major to computer
science.
And that's what I did, um,mainly because I knew in the
back of my mind that if I wantedto be home with my kids in the
(16:44):
future and if I wanted to havekids before I was 30, I could
never really fit in a doctoratedegree program and a therapy
practice as a psychologist.
So, I gave up on that dream andI thought that being a computer
programmer or developer may workbetter for my life plans.
Gabriel (17:04):
I can see that, but it's kind of sad because it's
almost like you had to choosewhat you needed to do and not
what you wanted to do in thatsituation.
Kyle (17:14):
Yeah, yeah, kind of sad.
And the reason why I thought itwould work with my life plans is
because my, computer classprofessor, she actually ran her
own business from the basementof her home.
One time I missed a testing day,and she said, don't worry, just
come to my home, it was rightnear campus, and you can take it
(17:37):
from, My home office.
And when I walked in, there wereactually cubes in her home
office, like people, there wasseparate entrance, and I thought
it was the coolest thing ever.
I'm like, Oh, this is possible.
I could do this with thisprofession.
That I didn't see possible withbeing a psychiatrist.
,which probably, maybe I couldhave.
But, at the time I didn't thinkI could.
(17:59):
And you have to remember that atthis time, the only people who
worked from home were people whoown their own business.
And I know this isn't novel nowwith a lot of people working
from home since the pandemic,but it was then.
It was just really not done.
So, working my first job out ofschool as a developer, I learned
(18:21):
really quickly that I didn'tenjoy it.
Everything we were making wasfunctional, but it was crap on
the front end.
The front end was terrible and Ididn't know how to make it
better.
I wasn't a designer like daddy.
I worked on the back end and thecode.
So, then I stumbled upon thisworld of usability.
(18:43):
and human computer interaction.
It wasn't called user experience20 years ago, but it is now.
But I was immediately hooked.
It was like taking my two lovesof psychology and computers and
putting them together.
It's almost like they had ababy, right?
Yeah.
Um because human computerinteraction is all about how do
(19:04):
people, think, feel, how do theyuse devices?
Why are they using them in thisway?
It was fascinating to me and it,it really, spoke to my interest
in human behavior, and put thattechnology slant on it.
So it was perfect in thatregard.
Roger (19:20):
Awesome.
Kyle (19:21):
Cool.
Yeah.
So that's how I ended up in UXand, why I wanted to be a
consultant.
Gabriel (19:26):
How did you make
Kyle (19:27):
the leap into consulting?
Okay.
So like I mentioned, I was atthat fortune 500 company I got
so frustrated with my corporatejob that I quit and I took a
short contract position.
And I thought at the time thatIt would be better to be a
contractor because I wouldn't bequote unquote married to the
(19:50):
company You know, i'm onlyworking there like for like a
three months six monthscontract, whatever it was but I
quickly learned that full timecontracting is pretty much
Exactly like full time salariedpositions.
You still have to sit in a cube9 to 5 and if you do good work,
the contract really never ends.
(20:12):
And I used to joke that I knew Iwas in a contract too long the
moment that I got an invitationto a baby shower or some
birthday or something else.
I'm like, oh gosh, I'm just likean employee.
Roger (20:23):
Yeah.
Kyle (20:23):
So, I desperately wanted to figure out what the secret
was to moving towards having myown clients and working from my
own office, but I didn't.
I didn't know how to do that.
And I found someone that was amentor and they explained that I
simply just had to dictate theworking arrangement.
(20:44):
You know, if someone wants toengage with me you just explain
how you work.
And I know that sounds prettyobvious.
I didn't realize this at all atthe time that you can just
simply state your workingconditions, your working
environment, just how you work.
If somebody asked to work withme, I would say that's great,
I'll be on site for thesemeetings.
(21:04):
I won't be on site for doingthis work.
And you just kind of lay it allout there.
Cool.
And I was shocked that I couldactually do that, that I had the
power to do that.
But once I did, I just kind ofnotified the world that I'm out
here as a consultant, multiplegigs at the same time, you know,
taking multiple clients.
And it just went from there.
(21:26):
But it took a while for me tochange that contracting and
employee mindset.
So I started my consultancy sixyears prior to having you,
Roger, before having my firstchild.
And that was, very much plannedas well.
Because I wanted to have thebusiness established beforehand.
Gabriel (21:47):
So, almost like when you notified to the world, so to
speak, like, you're out there,I'm here.
It almost gave you like aconfidence boost, and like,
just, it helped you be better.
Kyle (22:01):
Totally, yeah.
It was a lot of power in that,to say, I'm out here, hire me,
I'm available.
These are my services.
Yeah.
Roger (22:09):
How do you find work?
Kyle (22:12):
So it's all about my network.
I found that finding work istruly about building connections
and trust with your colleagues.
And I network a lot with otherconsultants as well, and we
refer work to each other.
We may compete at times forwork, but truly everyone I found
(22:32):
in this industry is reallywonderful about sharing
overflow.
When I'm busy and a client is arepeat client and I really value
that relationship, I turn to mynetwork and I rely on the people
that I trust the most, that Iknow will hit a home run for
that client.
And it's really great because Idon't want to leave that client
(22:53):
hanging if I'm not available.
So that tends to work out well.
But the way to find work isreally making yourself known,
speaking a lot of atconferences, writing articles,
helps to establish credibilityand position you as a thought
leader.
I typically don't get work rightaway though, after doing a
speaking or writing engagement.
(23:15):
It could be a couple of yearslater when someone contacts me
about work after seeing me talk.
They could say, a colleague ofmine saw you speak at such and
such conference two years ago.
They thought you were great.
And they said, I should ping youabout this work.
So it's, it's kind of like thatit takes a while, but it does
help every little bit helps.
Roger (23:36):
I
Kyle (23:36):
I also ran local, UXPA and CHI chapters in New Hampshire
and Philadelphia.
I volunteer for the IAConference and I generally just
try and stay involved in theindustry.
Some people ask me what aboutyour website?
Do people contact you throughthe website and I can tell you
work does not come from mywebsite.
(23:57):
Even though I'm proud of it andmy case studies and testimonials
on it, cold leads just tend notto go anywhere.
It's usually warm leads.
People Who contact you andthey've in some way heard about
you before that usually goessomewhere.
But, most importantly, good workleads to more work.
So most of my work is repeatclients.
(24:19):
Yeah.
Roger (24:19):
Oh, alright.
Gabriel (24:20):
So do you ever think about like, do you ever think
about having employees and likewanting them at any times?
Or like having a partnershipwith somebody?
Yeah.
Kyle (24:30):
I have absolutely no interest in managing employees.
You guys probably know thisabout me.
I have a hard time withconfrontation.
Good or bad.
I've had other people who owndesign firms come up and share
that they envy how I only haveto care and feed myself and I, I
(24:50):
just don't know that I couldhandle having to stress about
other people's performance.
I put a lot.
Yeah.
on myself.
So
Roger (24:59):
yeah,
Kyle (25:00):
I don't know.
And honestly, I don't haveexperience in management.
I into consulting without evermanaging before.
So that would be a learningcurve.
I've never equated success withgrowth in terms of head count.
To me, success was just stayingsolo and gainfully self
employed.
(25:20):
And I've been approached a fewtimes about partnering with
other consultants, and Ihonestly don't even know what
that means.
I have so many questions abouthow that could work.
Gabriel (25:36):
You know, oh, okay.
Cool
Roger (25:37):
have you ever needed help with your business?
Kyle (25:40):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I actually hired a sales coach avery long time ago, like three
years into consulting and heended up firing me as a client.
How does that work?
Well, sometimes the clientrelationship is not good and
it's not beneficial.
We just recognize that.
(26:02):
He couldn't help me, and Icouldn't really get a lot out
of, a lot of, advice from him.
So what happened was I couldn'tdo the things he wanted me to
do.
And when I tried to do them, itjust came off bad and unnatural.
So I learned that when it comesto business development and
(26:23):
sales, you have to do what feelsnatural and normal for you.
And the tactics that this salescoach wanted me to do at the
time were just too aggressivefor me.
And they just didn't work.
And it was just, it just cameoff bad.
So no bad blood, but it justwasn't the right coach for me.
And it was a good experiencethough, to come out of it.
(26:43):
Knowing what does work for meand what doesn't.
Gabriel (26:45):
Yeah, I understand.
Yeah, and when it comes to needOh, go ahead.
It's like a positive consequencealmost.
Kyle (26:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
And when it comes to needinghelp from my business, I mean,
that's constant.
I'm always striving to improveas a consultant.
So in that way, I'm alwayslearning, and I'm always seeking
help.
And that's really one of themain reasons I'm doing the
podcast is to learn more andalso to share it with everyone.
(27:14):
Cool.
Gabriel (27:15):
What do you like best and least about consulting?
Kyle (27:20):
Well, best is definitely the flexibility and the freedom.
Yeah, with my schedule.
It's just, When you guys werelittle putting you on the bus,
taking you off of the bus, thatwas possible.
I didn't have to tell my bossthat I wasn't available during
those times.
I just didn't make myselfavailable for meetings during
(27:40):
those times.
I worked around it.
And that's everything to me.
That is worth more than money attimes, just to have the freedom,
of my schedule and to not haveto ask permission to take a
vacation.
Now taking a vacation isdifficult cause I do need to be
there for my clients and I'msure that's something we'll
discuss in this podcast.
But, there is lots offlexibility and freedom.
Gabriel (28:01):
Yeah.
Kyle (28:02):
The worst part about consulting though is, is really
the sales for me and thebusiness development.
It's hard and it's not.
It's not what I enjoy the mostabout my work.
I love doing research, but Idon't exactly love getting the
research work.
Gabriel (28:23):
It
Kyle (28:23):
can be a bit of a grind at times.
Leads don't just fall from thesky.
You really have to work forthem.
Oh, go ahead.
I just said, you gotta work forit.
Right, right.
And surprisingly, that's what'shardest for me.
It's not the unpredictableincome.
I know for some people that'sthe worst part of consulting,
(28:44):
but to me, I actually, I likehaving control over how much I
can make.
If I want to make more, I justhave to hustle more and it feels
more in my control since I'm notlimited by a set salary.
Roger (28:59):
Yeah,
Kyle (29:00):
I see.
Roger (29:01):
I get that.
What do you think it takes to bea successful UX consultant?
Kyle (29:09):
Well, first and foremost, you have to be a master of your
craft.
I'm noticing now, because thereare a lot of layoffs in the
industry, and the economy is alittle poor right now, that
there's a lot of people jumpingin, and they're fresh out of
school.
And that's not necessarily a badthing, but I think with
consulting and opening up yourown business, There are some
(29:31):
things you can learn on the job,but there's a lot that you
should already know.
The basics is one of them.
You really need to be a trustedresource and be confident in the
strategy and the things thatyou're suggesting.
And I think that only comes withtime.
So, I mean, five years as a bareminimum working in the industry
to me is required.
(29:52):
So that's one thing, masteringyour craft.
You have to be self motivated.
You have to be disciplined inyour day to get stuff done,
because again, you don't have aboss telling you what to do.
Gabriel (30:03):
Yeah.
Kyle (30:04):
And you have to be willing to hustle.
You have to have a good network.
That's probably number one.
When I talk to people who arelike, I'm thinking of going out
on my own, but I don't reallyknow that many people.
It's like, whoa, don't do that.
You're not going to go far.
You, you have to haveConnections.
A strong network that's goingto, yeah, connections that are
(30:26):
going to support you, that aregoing to be interested in the
services that you provide.
It's so very important.
So you have to build yournetwork.
And you do need a good amount ofsavings.
There are going to be slowperiods and you don't want to
hit a slow period andimmediately go, well.
Well, that was fun.
I guess it's back to getting areal job because I don't have
(30:47):
savings to float for a littlewhile.
Roger (30:49):
Yeah.
Kyle (30:49):
You do have to have that.
And, lastly, I would say to be asuccessful UX consultant, you
need to do your homework andfigure out your pricing.
Learn how to write a proposaland an SOW.
Um, an SOW is a statement ofwork.
You need to get your contractsin place and possibly a, a
marketing plan.
Gabriel (31:10):
Yeah, um, I know I'm going out on a big limb here and
Probably most like going out ona tree, but like what about you
X in general Attracted you liketo it
Kyle (31:29):
well, it was back to what I said before about I really
Loved that somebody cares aboutThe experience that an end user
is having with a product Becausethere are so many products that
are hard to use like let's takea remote control for example You
know how some of them are likewicked complicated You look at
(31:50):
it and you're like, I don't evenknow where to start here and
some people are just sofrustrated just want to throw it
against the wall like and And alot of times people will blame
themselves, right?
They'll be like, I'm so dumb.
I can't figure this out.
And it's like, no, you're notdumb.
The product was not made with,you know, thinking about your
needs and, and they didn't doanything.
(32:11):
It was probably designed by anengineer who doesn't think like
the rest of us.
Um, and that was a big reasonwhy it attracted me.
It's like, yeah, there's a wayto design this.
So it's easy to use.
So it's simple.
And it just requires you to sitdown and actually observe
someone using it and, andassessing their emotions, their
(32:32):
thoughts, their feelings as theyuse it and caring enough about
the experience to do that.
So the industry appealed to mebecause it was an industry of
people who cared to create.
experiences that are better andit's kind of nice to work in an
industry where it's my job tokind of make people's lives
easier To make them better andthat's nice.
(32:54):
That really appealed to me.
Roger (32:55):
Yeah, it's gonna make you feel good about yourself
Kyle (32:57):
Now there are times where I'm, you know, some of my
clients, you guys know, like,sometimes it can be like, oh
wow, I'm working on somethingreally heavy, like an
application for cancer patientsto make some experience better
or pain management or somethingin the medical, um, sometimes
it's, it could be a microwaveor, you know, a washing machine.
(33:18):
But there are times where themission isn't really altruistic,
it's more just like,
Roger (33:24):
you
Kyle (33:25):
know, make more money.
Yeah.
You're doing something else,just doing dirty work?
Well, you're, it's not doingtheir dirty work, but it's just
helping them make more money,not necessarily making the end
user's life better.
It's not always great, but mostof the time it's usually to help
improve the experience.
That's good.
Roger (33:42):
All right.
Kyle (33:44):
Do you guys have any other questions?
Gabriel (33:46):
Yeah.
Well, I don't know how to saythis, but how, like, in all your
projects with all your clients?
Um, Do you have like aspecialty?
Kyle (34:05):
That's a really good question.
So, I don't., I will work onanything from a travel website
to a medical device to a kitchenappliance to a web application.
It really, it goes across alldifferent industries, financial,
just everything.
And there are some consultantsout there that do specialize.
(34:26):
And this is probably a topic I'mgoing to talk about with some of
my guests about whether or notyou should specialize or not.
A lot of times people say it'sbetter if you do.
And.
I will say that there's somefear around specializing.
If I say, okay, from this pointon, I am going to be the UX
research consultant for just ecommerce websites.
(34:49):
Then I feel like I'm turningdown other work.
Roger (34:51):
Yeah.
Kyle (34:52):
But I can see how you position yourself that way,
people will, you'll be top ofmind when people are thinking
about e commerce stuff.
So there's pros and cons to it.
I stayed away from it mainly outof fear, to be honest but I did
specialize slightly when itcomes to my services, I'm what's
called a qualitative UXresearcher.
(35:13):
And that just means that we domoderated interviews like this
where we ask follow up questionsWe do a lot of one on one
research versus quantitative UXresearchers who do unmoderated
research, like surveys with athousand people.
And you're getting feedback, butit's done very differently, and
you do a lot of statisticalanalysis and figuring out things
(35:37):
that I typically don't touch.
I will do some surveys, butusually it's on a smaller scale.
So I am a qualitativeresearcher, and in that way I do
specialize a little bit.
Yeah.
Okay.
Alright.
Yeah, but good question.
Rog, do you have any questions?
Roger (35:54):
No, those questions answered it for me.
Kyle (35:57):
Alright.
I'm curious though, what, ifanything, surprised you about my
answers?
Gabriel (36:04):
Well, first thing, I didn't know about the whole
Fortune 500 company and likethat you worked in a cube.
Kyle (36:13):
Yeah.
Roger (36:13):
What surprised me was most was probably learning about
though couldn't workingconditions there Mm hmm.
I like about the differencebetween working at home and
working at home.
And one of those Fortune 500companies.
Kyle (36:29):
And, you know, not all large organizations are
dysfunctional or toxic.
Some can be really good, reallyenjoyable.
I just did not have good luck.
All the internal jobs I ever hadwere just kind of the same in
that regards.
Lots of politics and things.
But I'm sure there are some thatare good.
Some people I think are reallynot cut out to be employees and
(36:52):
they, they're really cut out tobe an entrepreneur, to have
their own business.
And I think that's just what Iwas cut out to do.
I always felt that urge to, tobe out on my own.
And you know, it's funny.
I'll say this too.
I think for women, a lot ofwomen are pushed out of
(37:14):
corporate America and justworking internally because in
order to have the flexibilitythat some of them require to
have families and trust that'srequired to do their job,
sometimes they have to go intobusiness for themselves in order
to have that, that a lot ofcorporations can't or really
won't provide that.
And if they did, perhaps theywouldn't lose them to them
(37:36):
starting their own businesses.
Gabriel (37:39):
Yeah It was nice having like a big conversation with you
I mean, we never we have neverreally like I don't know just
like sat down and just talkedfelt good.
Yeah,
Kyle (37:54):
I Honestly was afraid I'd bore you No,
Roger (37:59):
that's okay.
You didn't.
Kyle (38:01):
It was entertaining
Roger (38:04):
yeah.
Kyle (38:04):
Well, awesome.
I'm so glad that you guys coulddo this.
I really
Gabriel (38:09):
appreciate it.
Roger (38:10):
Of course.
Gabriel (38:13):
We'll be discussing our payments later, right?
Roger (38:16):
Yeah.
Gabriel (38:18):
Yeah.
Roger (38:20):
20 a minute.
Kyle (38:21):
Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
We'll just take 20 for the wholething.
I don't, okay, well I don't knowthat my consulting business is
that good.
All right, well thank you guysso much for helping me out with
this portion of the episode.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I appreciate it.
Of course.
It was really fun.
Oh good, maybe we'll, maybe I'llhave you back.
Roger (38:42):
Yeah.
Kyle (38:42):
Please.
All right, bye.
Bye.
All right.
That wraps up the introductionto this podcast.
Again, I'm really hoping thiswill be a fun and laid back
hang, and I hope you'll continueto join me.
Stay tuned for the next episodewhere I'll be hanging out in the
lounge with Karen McGrane tochat all about her extensive
(39:05):
consulting experience.
I know she'll have a lot ofgreat wisdom to share with all
of us, and I'm super excited forit.
Till then, take care.
Cue the blooper reel.
so let's, um, get, um,
Single and ready to mingle.
And Gabe, nobody can see you,buddy.
(39:28):
Your hair looks great.
You don't have to worry aboutit.
Do you now?
Okay.
Alright, so, um, Any questionsfor me before we start?
Nope.
Do you need to go to thebathroom?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
(39:49):
Okay, go.
That's fine.
That's totally fine.
No, no, no.
That's, that's totally cool.
Go ahead.
I'm refreshed now.
Gabriel (39:57):
Did you close the door completely?
Um, let me see.
Oh, whoops!
Roger (40:03):
What do you think it takes to be a successful U.
S.
consultant, UX consultant?
Kyle (40:08):
careful, careful.
Okay, that's your microphone.
Gabriel (40:11):
What?
Kyle (40:11):
That's your microphone, be careful.
Gabriel (40:15):
You ready to start?
Yeah.
I need to prepare for my voice.
Alright.
Alright.
I'm ready.
All right, let's do this.
I'm going to start by tellingyou a little bit about myself
and why I'm doing this podcast.
So this year I'm celebrating my20th year in business as an
independent UX researchconsultant.
My company is called UsableInterface, and I offer services
(00:39):
in conducting user research,usability testing, research
strategy, and training.
I'll include a link to mycompany website in the show
notes.
But celebrating this 20 yearmilestone has been a period of
deep reflection for me.
I would hope that after twodecades in business that I'd
have it all figured out, butthat's just not the case.
(01:03):
I do not have all the answersabout consulting, that's for
sure, but I do have a greatnetwork of other independent
consultants.
And whenever I catch up withother consultants, I always
learn something new.
I think having peers to learnfrom is invaluable.
(01:24):
And I want to share that withall of you.
I'm always striving to become abetter consultant as I'm sure
most of you are as well.
So this is an opportunity forall of us to share stories and
learn together.
Peter Drucker, who's the quotefather of management, he always
(01:44):
insisted on asking himselfbefore writing any new book, why
this book now?
And I think it's a really greatquestion to ask yourself about
anything you're putting out intothe world.
So, Why this podcast now?
In my opinion, this is needednow more than ever.
(02:07):
With the current economy and allthe layoffs in tech, the
attractiveness of going out onyour own and consulting or
freelancing has significantlyincreased.
So with all these new peopletrying to get their feet wet
with consulting, there needs tobe some real talk about what to
(02:29):
expect and the reality of it.
I find there's also a need for arich source of insights,
stories, professional growth,and support for veteran UX
consultants.
And lastly, probably selfishly,sometimes it's lonely being an
(02:50):
independent consultant.
And this podcast gives me areason to reach out more to
other people, both inside andoutside of my network.
Basically I wanted a place tohelp each other with the
challenges of consulting andcelebrate the wins.
So, what can you expect in thispodcast?
(03:13):
There are going to be a lot ofdiscussions with other
independent UX consultants, andthis is really going to be a
relaxed, fun, casual hangout forUX consultants to vent, share a
laugh, and maybe some warstories.
There will be some appearancesfrom clients and other people
that I think we can learn agreat deal from.
(03:35):
And there will even be a chancefor listeners to interact here
with submitting questions oftheir own with some Q and a.
And if y'all are brave enough,some anonymous consulting
stories, if you're willing toshare them and there'll be a
link in the show notes as well,where you can submit your
questions and stories.
(03:55):
I want to note here that there'snothing I hate more than making
small talk and havingsuperficial conversations.
That's not what this is about.
It's not what you're going tofind here.
We're going deep.
We're going to have realconversations about the wins and
the losses.
So who is this podcast for?
(04:17):
I think as the name entails.
It's obviously for people whohave their own consulting
business and those that areinterested in learning more
about it.
But I want to take a moment todefine Consulting business.
There are many terms that can beused to define someone who is a
UX consultant.
(04:38):
It could be independentcontractor or consultant, a self
employed freelancer,solopreneur, gig worker.
All these terms could be usedfor business owners who provide
set services to a company andare not on the company's
payroll, like an internalemployee.
And for the folks in the UnitedStates, to put it in terms of
(05:01):
IRS tax forms, this podcast isgeared towards people who are
1099, not W 2 contractors.
Again, this just means that youare not on the company payroll
and you have control over whenand how you work.
With a W 2 employee, the numberof hours and schedules they work
(05:24):
are dictated by the employer.
And they are given instructionprovided with tools, training,
equipment, whatever they need tocomplete the work.
That is not the case here.
You know, I went back and fortha lot about whether or not to
name this podcast UX FreelancersLounge, but I decided to stick
to consultants because I believeit denotes that this is for
(05:47):
folks that are in business forthemselves full time and not
just moonlighting on the side.
Now, there's nothing wrong withpart time freelancing, but there
may not be as much value in thiscontent for those folks.
They'll get something good outof it, but this is really for
the people that are hanging outthat shingle and this is their
business.
(06:09):
And I want you to know too, thatI'm not at all precious about
the term consultant.
If someone refers to me as afreelancer, I don't really care
at all.
I know some people do, and I'msure it'll be a topic of
discussion with some of myguests on the show.
So that'll be interesting tochat about, but UX is a large
(06:29):
umbrella as we all know.
So this podcast is forconsultants offering services in
design, research, information,architecture, content, and other
tangential areas like UXcoaching and training.
Of course, consultants fromother fields may get a lot of
value out of the content tosince there's crossover with
many topics.
(06:50):
In fact, one of the podcasts Ienjoy the most is called the
deliberate freelancer, and it'shosted by a freelance writer,
but her content really appliesto all freelancers.
I'll add a link in the shownotes as well to this podcast.
Now to learn a little more aboutmyself and my consultancy, I
thought I'd review the questionsthat I get asked most often
(07:14):
about my business.
Before I do that, And just aside note that this podcast is
not going to be about just meand my business.
I want to reassure you that therest of the episodes are going
to focus on my guests and theirstories and experiences.
I feel the need to say thisbecause I'm very uncomfortable
(07:36):
with self promotion, which we'lltalk about, and this podcast is
not an ad for my business.
It's important for me that youknow that.
Now, the topic of self promotionis super important and
interesting, and we'lldefinitely delve into that with
some of my guests.
I'm actually hoping to have agreat author on the topic as a
(07:57):
guest.
So, please So keep your fingerscrossed for me that we'll be
able to book them.
I guess we're going to call thisa hopeful Easter egg.
So in order to review thequestions I get asked most often
about my consultancy, I thoughtI do something fun and a little
different and have my kids askme these questions because
(08:19):
they're a big part of the reasonwhy I do.
I chose to become a consultantand why I've decided to keep my
consultancy going for the last20 years.
So I have two kids and wheneverpossible, I like to include them
in my work.
My youngest, who is 11 andyou'll meet in a moment is
(08:40):
always super curious about whatI'm working on and he often has
just really awesome insights.
He'll look at a presentation ora report that I'm creating and
he'll ask.
Great questions that often helpme get unstuck, and I'm kind of
blown away every time thishappens.
(09:01):
So they've both been having alot of fun helping me pick out
the music and the art for thispodcast.
My husband is a UX designer, soour kids are very well versed in
the world of product usabilityand user experience, uh probably
to a fault.
So let's get them in here andlet me introduce you.
(09:22):
Alright.
Hey guys.
Welcome to the lounge.
Hi.
Hey.
So, we have Roger here, who's14.
Hi.
And we have Gabriel, who's 11.
Hi.
I was telling the listenersabout how you both have been
involved in helping me makedecisions about the name of the
(09:42):
podcast, the cover art, and themusic.
And it's been a fun project sofar.
And I'm just super grateful forall your help and for joining me
in this introduction where youget to interview me.
Oh,
Roger (09:56):
thanks.
Kyle (09:57):
Yeah, same.
No, thank you.
And how are you guys feelingabout interviewing me about my
work?
Roger (10:05):
Little nervous.
Gabriel (10:06):
This would be a first.
Yeah.
I've never done this.
Yeah.
Roger (10:10):
I'd be nervous.
What are
Kyle (10:12):
you nervous about?
That
Roger (10:14):
I'm going to laugh.
Kyle (10:16):
That's okay.
Laugh.
Roger (10:18):
Okay.
It's
Kyle (10:18):
it's gonna be fun.
And, hopefully, maybe you'lllearn something about me you
didn't know before or hopefullyyou'll find it interesting.
Roger (10:26):
Yeah.
Kyle (10:27):
I
Gabriel (10:27):
probably
Kyle (10:27):
will.
Roger (10:28):
Alright.
Yeah.
Kyle (10:29):
Do you guys want to start by telling the listeners a
little about yourself?
Roger (10:34):
Um,
Gabriel (10:34):
sure.
Roger (10:34):
Okay.
You can go first, Gabe.
Gabriel (10:37):
Alright.
So, well, as you know, my nameis Gabe, and, I like football.
And, I like sports.
Kyle (10:47):
Yeah.
That's great.
Okay.
And how about you, Rog?
Roger (10:53):
My name is Roger, and I'm really into Magic the Gathering.
And I'm really passionate aboutit.
And I also like reading a lot.
And just hanging with my friendsand stuff.
Gabriel (11:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Roger (11:07):
And music.
Music is a big part of my life.
Kyle (11:10):
It is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The buds are constantly in theears.
Awesome.
Alright.
So, I've given you both the listof questions that I get asked
most often about my business,and you're going to take turns
asking me them.
So, who wants to start first?
(11:31):
I'll start.
I
Roger (11:32):
will.
Okay.
Kyle (11:33):
Oh, no, you can
Gabriel (11:34):
go,
Kyle (11:34):
Roger.
Roger (11:34):
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Kyle (11:37):
So Rog, before you start, I want you both to know that you
can ask me any additionalquestions that you'd like.
If my answer prompts you to wantto ask another question, like a
follow up question, you can askit.
Also if you don't understand myanswer, or if I use a word that
(11:57):
you don't know, Please don't beafraid to ask.
That's okay.
Okay?
Okay.
All right.
Okay, Roger.
You can go ahead.
Roger (12:06):
All right.
How did you end up in UX and whydid you decide to go out on your
own as a consultant?
Kyle (12:13):
Okay, there are two main reasons that I decided to become
a consultant.
One reason was work related, andthe other was personal.
So, just to start with the workrelated reason, I truly just
wanted to be trusted to do myjob.
It's kind of funny how oftentimes in certain organizations,
(12:38):
the moment you get hired, youlose all credibility.
Roger (12:41):
Yeah.
Kyle (12:42):
You know, there can be tons of internal politics that
get in the way and just keep youfrom doing good work.
In my last internal job, I wasworking for a Fortune 500
company.
Wow.
Do you know what that
Gabriel (12:57):
yeah, it's one of the top 500 companies in the world
that makes a lot of money and itdoes good, like Amazon.
Kyle (13:04):
It's one of the largest 500 companies in the country.
And the list is done by FortuneMagazine, that's why it's called
the Fortune 500.
So it was a large organizationthat I worked for.
And they would push back a ton,on recommendations, That anybody
(13:25):
internally would really have butthe moment a consultant walked
in making the sameRecommendations it was as if the
Word of God was spoken.
Yeah, and they just they did itYou know, and I thought wow,
that's what I want to do I wantto be that consultant coming
into the room and being trustedto Do my job.
(13:46):
So so you just want to beresponded.
I would I would Yeah, yeah, ithad, that's right.
I wanted to be respected and Iwas completely burned out by a
toxic corporate culture thatjust seemed to promote the
people that weren't rocking theboat.
So a lot of folks were just kindof failing upwards and I needed
(14:08):
to get out of that environment.
And I'm sure this soundsdramatic, but I also felt a lot
like I was in a jail whilesitting in my cube
Roger (14:19):
in
Kyle (14:20):
the office.
Do you guys know what an officecube is?
Yeah.
Yeah, like, oh, it's just.
It's depressing and there was noflexibility at all with my work
hours and working from home 20years ago Was completely unheard
of.
I know that's changed a lot now,but management at that company
(14:40):
They wanted to see the back ofyour neck at all times I felt a
lot like that main character inthe movie Thank you Office
space, which is one of myfavorite movies and I know you
guys have not seen it But oneday when you're a little older,
I think you have to be a littleolder to appreciate it and to
see it but that was me that maincharacter.
(15:02):
That's just how I felt likesuffocated in a corporate
environment and it kind of leadsme to the personal reason Why I
became a consultant and actuallywhere you guys kind of come into
play, right?
so flexibility with my work isExtremely important to me and I
knew from a very young age thatI wanted a family My mom, you
(15:26):
know, grandma, you know was astay at home mom and I I knew
that I wanted to do that, but Ialso knew that I wanted and
needed to work.
It was always in the back of mymind and it was a worry, you
know, when deciding what I wasgoing to major in, in college.
(15:47):
And this sadly is not somethingboys tend to worry about.
They're, they're rarely everworrying about raising kids when
choosing their career path.
Roger (15:58):
Yeah, that's true.
Kyle (16:00):
I guess there is some truth to that.
And, you know, when I waslittle, or not even little, but
younger and figuring out mycareer, I always wanted to be a
psychologist or a psychiatristwhen I grew up.
I was absolutely fascinated withhuman behavior and why people do
the things they do, and I stillam.
(16:22):
So my first major in college waspsychology.
But I had a computer class as anelective and, technology and
programming just came super easyto me.
So a professor suggested that Iswitch my major to computer
science.
And that's what I did, um,mainly because I knew in the
back of my mind that if I wantedto be home with my kids in the
(16:44):
future and if I wanted to havekids before I was 30, I could
never really fit in a doctoratedegree program and a therapy
practice as a psychologist.
So, I gave up on that dream andI thought that being a computer
programmer or developer may workbetter for my life plans.
Gabriel (17:04):
I can see that, but it's kind of sad because it's
almost like you had to choosewhat you needed to do and not
what you wanted to do in thatsituation.
Kyle (17:14):
Yeah, yeah, kind of sad.
And the reason why I thought itwould work with my life plans is
because my, computer classprofessor, she actually ran her
own business from the basementof her home.
One time I missed a testing day,and she said, don't worry, just
come to my home, it was rightnear campus, and you can take it
(17:37):
from, My home office.
And when I walked in, there wereactually cubes in her home
office, like people, there wasseparate entrance, and I thought
it was the coolest thing ever.
I'm like, Oh, this is possible.
I could do this with thisprofession.
That I didn't see possible withbeing a psychiatrist.
,which probably, maybe I couldhave.
But, at the time I didn't thinkI could.
(17:59):
And you have to remember that atthis time, the only people who
worked from home were people whoown their own business.
And I know this isn't novel nowwith a lot of people working
from home since the pandemic,but it was then.
It was just really not done.
So, working my first job out ofschool as a developer, I learned
(18:21):
really quickly that I didn'tenjoy it.
Everything we were making wasfunctional, but it was crap on
the front end.
The front end was terrible and Ididn't know how to make it
better.
I wasn't a designer like daddy.
I worked on the back end and thecode.
So, then I stumbled upon thisworld of usability.
(18:43):
and human computer interaction.
It wasn't called user experience20 years ago, but it is now.
But I was immediately hooked.
It was like taking my two lovesof psychology and computers and
putting them together.
It's almost like they had ababy, right?
Yeah.
Um because human computerinteraction is all about how do
(19:04):
people, think, feel, how do theyuse devices?
Why are they using them in thisway?
It was fascinating to me and it,it really, spoke to my interest
in human behavior, and put thattechnology slant on it.
So it was perfect in thatregard.
Roger (19:20):
Awesome.
Kyle (19:21):
Cool.
Yeah.
So that's how I ended up in UXand, why I wanted to be a
consultant.
Gabriel (19:26):
How did you make
Kyle (19:27):
the leap into consulting?
Okay.
So like I mentioned, I was atthat fortune 500 company I got
so frustrated with my corporatejob that I quit and I took a
short contract position.
And I thought at the time thatIt would be better to be a
contractor because I wouldn't bequote unquote married to the
(19:50):
company You know, i'm onlyworking there like for like a
three months six monthscontract, whatever it was but I
quickly learned that full timecontracting is pretty much
Exactly like full time salariedpositions.
You still have to sit in a cube9 to 5 and if you do good work,
the contract really never ends.
(20:12):
And I used to joke that I knew Iwas in a contract too long the
moment that I got an invitationto a baby shower or some
birthday or something else.
I'm like, oh gosh, I'm just likean employee.
Roger (20:23):
Yeah.
Kyle (20:23):
So, I desperately wanted to figure out what the secret
was to moving towards having myown clients and working from my
own office, but I didn't.
I didn't know how to do that.
And I found someone that was amentor and they explained that I
simply just had to dictate theworking arrangement.
(20:44):
You know, if someone wants toengage with me you just explain
how you work.
And I know that sounds prettyobvious.
I didn't realize this at all atthe time that you can just
simply state your workingconditions, your working
environment, just how you work.
If somebody asked to work withme, I would say that's great,
I'll be on site for thesemeetings.
(21:04):
I won't be on site for doingthis work.
And you just kind of lay it allout there.
Cool.
And I was shocked that I couldactually do that, that I had the
power to do that.
But once I did, I just kind ofnotified the world that I'm out
here as a consultant, multiplegigs at the same time, you know,
taking multiple clients.
And it just went from there.
(21:26):
But it took a while for me tochange that contracting and
employee mindset.
So I started my consultancy sixyears prior to having you,
Roger, before having my firstchild.
And that was, very much plannedas well.
Because I wanted to have thebusiness established beforehand.
Gabriel (21:47):
So, almost like when you notified to the world, so to
speak, like, you're out there,I'm here.
It almost gave you like aconfidence boost, and like,
just, it helped you be better.
Kyle (22:01):
Totally, yeah.
It was a lot of power in that,to say, I'm out here, hire me,
I'm available.
These are my services.
Yeah.
Roger (22:09):
How do you find work?
Kyle (22:12):
So it's all about my network.
I found that finding work istruly about building connections
and trust with your colleagues.
And I network a lot with otherconsultants as well, and we
refer work to each other.
We may compete at times forwork, but truly everyone I found
(22:32):
in this industry is reallywonderful about sharing
overflow.
When I'm busy and a client is arepeat client and I really value
that relationship, I turn to mynetwork and I rely on the people
that I trust the most, that Iknow will hit a home run for
that client.
And it's really great because Idon't want to leave that client
(22:53):
hanging if I'm not available.
So that tends to work out well.
But the way to find work isreally making yourself known,
speaking a lot of atconferences, writing articles,
helps to establish credibilityand position you as a thought
leader.
I typically don't get work rightaway though, after doing a
speaking or writing engagement.
(23:15):
It could be a couple of yearslater when someone contacts me
about work after seeing me talk.
They could say, a colleague ofmine saw you speak at such and
such conference two years ago.
They thought you were great.
And they said, I should ping youabout this work.
So it's, it's kind of like thatit takes a while, but it does
help every little bit helps.
Roger (23:36):
I
Kyle (23:36):
I also ran local, UXPA and CHI chapters in New Hampshire
and Philadelphia.
I volunteer for the IAConference and I generally just
try and stay involved in theindustry.
Some people ask me what aboutyour website?
Do people contact you throughthe website and I can tell you
work does not come from mywebsite.
(23:57):
Even though I'm proud of it andmy case studies and testimonials
on it, cold leads just tend notto go anywhere.
It's usually warm leads.
People Who contact you andthey've in some way heard about
you before that usually goessomewhere.
But, most importantly, good workleads to more work.
So most of my work is repeatclients.
(24:19):
Yeah.
Roger (24:19):
Oh, alright.
Gabriel (24:20):
So do you ever think about like, do you ever think
about having employees and likewanting them at any times?
Or like having a partnershipwith somebody?
Yeah.
Kyle (24:30):
I have absolutely no interest in managing employees.
You guys probably know thisabout me.
I have a hard time withconfrontation.
Good or bad.
I've had other people who owndesign firms come up and share
that they envy how I only haveto care and feed myself and I, I
(24:50):
just don't know that I couldhandle having to stress about
other people's performance.
I put a lot.
Yeah.
on myself.
So
Roger (24:59):
yeah,
Kyle (25:00):
I don't know.
And honestly, I don't haveexperience in management.
I into consulting without evermanaging before.
So that would be a learningcurve.
I've never equated success withgrowth in terms of head count.
To me, success was just stayingsolo and gainfully self
employed.
(25:20):
And I've been approached a fewtimes about partnering with
other consultants, and Ihonestly don't even know what
that means.
I have so many questions abouthow that could work.
Gabriel (25:36):
You know, oh, okay.
Cool
Roger (25:37):
have you ever needed help with your business?
Kyle (25:40):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I actually hired a sales coach avery long time ago, like three
years into consulting and heended up firing me as a client.
How does that work?
Well, sometimes the clientrelationship is not good and
it's not beneficial.
We just recognize that.
(26:02):
He couldn't help me, and Icouldn't really get a lot out
of, a lot of, advice from him.
So what happened was I couldn'tdo the things he wanted me to
do.
And when I tried to do them, itjust came off bad and unnatural.
So I learned that when it comesto business development and
(26:23):
sales, you have to do what feelsnatural and normal for you.
And the tactics that this salescoach wanted me to do at the
time were just too aggressivefor me.
And they just didn't work.
And it was just, it just cameoff bad.
So no bad blood, but it justwasn't the right coach for me.
And it was a good experiencethough, to come out of it.
(26:43):
Knowing what does work for meand what doesn't.
Gabriel (26:45):
Yeah, I understand.
Yeah, and when it comes to needOh, go ahead.
It's like a positive consequencealmost.
Kyle (26:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
And when it comes to needinghelp from my business, I mean,
that's constant.
I'm always striving to improveas a consultant.
So in that way, I'm alwayslearning, and I'm always seeking
help.
And that's really one of themain reasons I'm doing the
podcast is to learn more andalso to share it with everyone.
(27:14):
Cool.
Gabriel (27:15):
What do you like best and least about consulting?
Kyle (27:20):
Well, best is definitely the flexibility and the freedom.
Yeah, with my schedule.
It's just, When you guys werelittle putting you on the bus,
taking you off of the bus, thatwas possible.
I didn't have to tell my bossthat I wasn't available during
those times.
I just didn't make myselfavailable for meetings during
(27:40):
those times.
I worked around it.
And that's everything to me.
That is worth more than money attimes, just to have the freedom,
of my schedule and to not haveto ask permission to take a
vacation.
Now taking a vacation isdifficult cause I do need to be
there for my clients and I'msure that's something we'll
discuss in this podcast.
But, there is lots offlexibility and freedom.
Gabriel (28:01):
Yeah.
Kyle (28:02):
The worst part about consulting though is, is really
the sales for me and thebusiness development.
It's hard and it's not.
It's not what I enjoy the mostabout my work.
I love doing research, but Idon't exactly love getting the
research work.
Gabriel (28:23):
It
Kyle (28:23):
can be a bit of a grind at times.
Leads don't just fall from thesky.
You really have to work forthem.
Oh, go ahead.
I just said, you gotta work forit.
Right, right.
And surprisingly, that's what'shardest for me.
It's not the unpredictableincome.
I know for some people that'sthe worst part of consulting,
(28:44):
but to me, I actually, I likehaving control over how much I
can make.
If I want to make more, I justhave to hustle more and it feels
more in my control since I'm notlimited by a set salary.
Roger (28:59):
Yeah,
Kyle (29:00):
I see.
Roger (29:01):
I get that.
What do you think it takes to bea successful UX consultant?
Kyle (29:09):
Well, first and foremost, you have to be a master of your
craft.
I'm noticing now, because thereare a lot of layoffs in the
industry, and the economy is alittle poor right now, that
there's a lot of people jumpingin, and they're fresh out of
school.
And that's not necessarily a badthing, but I think with
consulting and opening up yourown business, There are some
(29:31):
things you can learn on the job,but there's a lot that you
should already know.
The basics is one of them.
You really need to be a trustedresource and be confident in the
strategy and the things thatyou're suggesting.
And I think that only comes withtime.
So, I mean, five years as a bareminimum working in the industry
to me is required.
(29:52):
So that's one thing, masteringyour craft.
You have to be self motivated.
You have to be disciplined inyour day to get stuff done,
because again, you don't have aboss telling you what to do.
Gabriel (30:03):
Yeah.
Kyle (30:04):
And you have to be willing to hustle.
You have to have a good network.
That's probably number one.
When I talk to people who arelike, I'm thinking of going out
on my own, but I don't reallyknow that many people.
It's like, whoa, don't do that.
You're not going to go far.
You, you have to haveConnections.
A strong network that's goingto, yeah, connections that are
(30:26):
going to support you, that aregoing to be interested in the
services that you provide.
It's so very important.
So you have to build yournetwork.
And you do need a good amount ofsavings.
There are going to be slowperiods and you don't want to
hit a slow period andimmediately go, well.
Well, that was fun.
I guess it's back to getting areal job because I don't have
(30:47):
savings to float for a littlewhile.
Roger (30:49):
Yeah.
Kyle (30:49):
You do have to have that.
And, lastly, I would say to be asuccessful UX consultant, you
need to do your homework andfigure out your pricing.
Learn how to write a proposaland an SOW.
Um, an SOW is a statement ofwork.
You need to get your contractsin place and possibly a, a
marketing plan.
Gabriel (31:10):
Yeah, um, I know I'm going out on a big limb here and
Probably most like going out ona tree, but like what about you
X in general Attracted you liketo it
Kyle (31:29):
well, it was back to what I said before about I really
Loved that somebody cares aboutThe experience that an end user
is having with a product Becausethere are so many products that
are hard to use like let's takea remote control for example You
know how some of them are likewicked complicated You look at
(31:50):
it and you're like, I don't evenknow where to start here and
some people are just sofrustrated just want to throw it
against the wall like and And alot of times people will blame
themselves, right?
They'll be like, I'm so dumb.
I can't figure this out.
And it's like, no, you're notdumb.
The product was not made with,you know, thinking about your
needs and, and they didn't doanything.
(32:11):
It was probably designed by anengineer who doesn't think like
the rest of us.
Um, and that was a big reasonwhy it attracted me.
It's like, yeah, there's a wayto design this.
So it's easy to use.
So it's simple.
And it just requires you to sitdown and actually observe
someone using it and, andassessing their emotions, their
(32:32):
thoughts, their feelings as theyuse it and caring enough about
the experience to do that.
So the industry appealed to mebecause it was an industry of
people who cared to create.
experiences that are better andit's kind of nice to work in an
industry where it's my job tokind of make people's lives
easier To make them better andthat's nice.
(32:54):
That really appealed to me.
Roger (32:55):
Yeah, it's gonna make you feel good about yourself
Kyle (32:57):
Now there are times where I'm, you know, some of my
clients, you guys know, like,sometimes it can be like, oh
wow, I'm working on somethingreally heavy, like an
application for cancer patientsto make some experience better
or pain management or somethingin the medical, um, sometimes
it's, it could be a microwaveor, you know, a washing machine.
(33:18):
But there are times where themission isn't really altruistic,
it's more just like,
Roger (33:24):
you
Kyle (33:25):
know, make more money.
Yeah.
You're doing something else,just doing dirty work?
Well, you're, it's not doingtheir dirty work, but it's just
helping them make more money,not necessarily making the end
user's life better.
It's not always great, but mostof the time it's usually to help
improve the experience.
That's good.
Roger (33:42):
All right.
Kyle (33:44):
Do you guys have any other questions?
Gabriel (33:46):
Yeah.
Well, I don't know how to saythis, but how, like, in all your
projects with all your clients?
Um, Do you have like aspecialty?
Kyle (34:05):
That's a really good question.
So, I don't., I will work onanything from a travel website
to a medical device to a kitchenappliance to a web application.
It really, it goes across alldifferent industries, financial,
just everything.
And there are some consultantsout there that do specialize.
(34:26):
And this is probably a topic I'mgoing to talk about with some of
my guests about whether or notyou should specialize or not.
A lot of times people say it'sbetter if you do.
And.
I will say that there's somefear around specializing.
If I say, okay, from this pointon, I am going to be the UX
research consultant for just ecommerce websites.
(34:49):
Then I feel like I'm turningdown other work.
Roger (34:51):
Yeah.
Kyle (34:52):
But I can see how you position yourself that way,
people will, you'll be top ofmind when people are thinking
about e commerce stuff.
So there's pros and cons to it.
I stayed away from it mainly outof fear, to be honest but I did
specialize slightly when itcomes to my services, I'm what's
called a qualitative UXresearcher.
(35:13):
And that just means that we domoderated interviews like this
where we ask follow up questionsWe do a lot of one on one
research versus quantitative UXresearchers who do unmoderated
research, like surveys with athousand people.
And you're getting feedback, butit's done very differently, and
you do a lot of statisticalanalysis and figuring out things
(35:37):
that I typically don't touch.
I will do some surveys, butusually it's on a smaller scale.
So I am a qualitativeresearcher, and in that way I do
specialize a little bit.
Yeah.
Okay.
Alright.
Yeah, but good question.
Rog, do you have any questions?
Roger (35:54):
No, those questions answered it for me.
Kyle (35:57):
Alright.
I'm curious though, what, ifanything, surprised you about my
answers?
Gabriel (36:04):
Well, first thing, I didn't know about the whole
Fortune 500 company and likethat you worked in a cube.
Kyle (36:13):
Yeah.
Roger (36:13):
What surprised me was most was probably learning about
though couldn't workingconditions there Mm hmm.
I like about the differencebetween working at home and
working at home.
And one of those Fortune 500companies.
Kyle (36:29):
And, you know, not all large organizations are
dysfunctional or toxic.
Some can be really good, reallyenjoyable.
I just did not have good luck.
All the internal jobs I ever hadwere just kind of the same in
that regards.
Lots of politics and things.
But I'm sure there are some thatare good.
Some people I think are reallynot cut out to be employees and
(36:52):
they, they're really cut out tobe an entrepreneur, to have
their own business.
And I think that's just what Iwas cut out to do.
I always felt that urge to, tobe out on my own.
And you know, it's funny.
I'll say this too.
I think for women, a lot ofwomen are pushed out of
(37:14):
corporate America and justworking internally because in
order to have the flexibilitythat some of them require to
have families and trust that'srequired to do their job,
sometimes they have to go intobusiness for themselves in order
to have that, that a lot ofcorporations can't or really
won't provide that.
And if they did, perhaps theywouldn't lose them to them
(37:36):
starting their own businesses.
Gabriel (37:39):
Yeah It was nice having like a big conversation with you
I mean, we never we have neverreally like I don't know just
like sat down and just talkedfelt good.
Yeah,
Kyle (37:54):
I Honestly was afraid I'd bore you No,
Roger (37:59):
that's okay.
You didn't.
Kyle (38:01):
It was entertaining
Roger (38:04):
yeah.
Kyle (38:04):
Well, awesome.
I'm so glad that you guys coulddo this.
I really
Gabriel (38:09):
appreciate it.
Roger (38:10):
Of course.
Gabriel (38:13):
We'll be discussing our payments later, right?
Roger (38:16):
Yeah.
Gabriel (38:18):
Yeah.
Roger (38:20):
20 a minute.
Kyle (38:21):
Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
We'll just take 20 for the wholething.
I don't, okay, well I don't knowthat my consulting business is
that good.
All right, well thank you guysso much for helping me out with
this portion of the episode.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I appreciate it.
Of course.
It was really fun.
Oh good, maybe we'll, maybe I'llhave you back.
Roger (38:42):
Yeah.
Kyle (38:42):
Please.
All right, bye.
Bye.
All right.
That wraps up the introductionto this podcast.
Again, I'm really hoping thiswill be a fun and laid back
hang, and I hope you'll continueto join me.
Stay tuned for the next episodewhere I'll be hanging out in the
lounge with Karen McGrane tochat all about her extensive
(39:05):
consulting experience.
I know she'll have a lot ofgreat wisdom to share with all
of us, and I'm super excited forit.
Till then, take care.
Cue the blooper reel.
so let's, um, get, um,
Single and ready to mingle.
And Gabe, nobody can see you,buddy.
(39:28):
Your hair looks great.
You don't have to worry aboutit.
Do you now?
Okay.
Alright, so, um, Any questionsfor me before we start?
Nope.
Do you need to go to thebathroom?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
(39:49):
Okay, go.
That's fine.
That's totally fine.
No, no, no.
That's, that's totally cool.
Go ahead.
I'm refreshed now.
Gabriel (39:57):
Did you close the door completely?
Um, let me see.
Oh, whoops!
Roger (40:03):
What do you think it takes to be a successful U.
S.
consultant, UX consultant?
Kyle (40:08):
careful, careful.
Okay, that's your microphone.
Gabriel (40:11):
What?
Kyle (40:11):
That's your microphone, be careful.
Gabriel (40:15):
You ready to start?
Yeah.
I need to prepare for my voice.
Alright.
Alright.
I'm ready.
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