Lisa Bragg - The Art of Purposeful Self-Promotion: Being a Signal Through the Noise

In this engaging episode of The UX Consultants Lounge, host Kyle Soucy sits down with Lisa Bragg, an expert in strategic self-promotion and the author of "Bragging Rights: How to Talk about Your Work Using Purposeful Self-Promotion." Together, they explore the nuanced art of self-promotion that doesn't just add to the noise but acts as a clear signal, bringing value and visibility to your work. 

Whether you're a UX consultant or in any field where self-promotion feels a bit icky, this episode offers practical advice and thoughtful insights to help you share your accomplishments confidently and effectively.

Key Topics Discussed:

• Understanding why self-promotion is crucial, especially for consultants.
• Learning how to share your successes without sounding boastful.
• Discovering practical tips on transforming discomfort into effective self-advocacy.

Notable Quotes:
“You can't sell a secret... Everyone needs to build social currency.”

“Waiting for others to notice you is not a good marketing strategy.”

“ Self promotion is also about connecting and giving recognition to others...  anybody who's inspired you, letting them know that is just such a gift that you can give them. And that in return, it helps everyone, It helps yourself, it helps them...  give more to the world than we take from it... not to act entitled and not to have the purpose of whatever we share to be to dim or blow out other people's light.”

Connect with Us:

• Host: Kyle Soucy | Usable Interface (https://usableinterface.com/)
• Guest: Lisa Bragg | https://www.lisabragg.com/

- - - - -

Links and Resources Mentioned:

• Lisa’s Book: Bragging Rights: How to Talk about Your Work Using Purposeful Self-Promotion (https://www.lisabragg.com/book)

Submit a question or story: Have a question or topic that you'd like us to cover in a future episode and/or want to share an anonymous consulting story? Submit your questions and stories.

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I can’t wait to have you back in the lounge for our next episode!

Episode Transcript

Kyle Soucy (00:15):
Welcome to the UX consultants lounge.
I'm Kyle Soucy, founder ofusable interface an independent
UX research consultancy.
You can find out more about mywork and the services I offer at
my website, usable interface.
com.
I'll be your host here at thelounge where I'll be providing a

(00:35):
place for UX consultants togather, share stories, and learn
more from one another.
Oh boy.
Do I have a treat for all of youtoday! I decided to do something
a little different for thisepisode.
Rather than interview another UXconsultant, I invited someone to
the lounge outside of ourindustry that I think we all can

(00:59):
learn a great deal from.
My guest today is Lisa Bragg.
She is the author of the book,Bragging Rights, how to talk
about your work using purposefulself promotion.
Now, if you've listened to anyof the other episodes in this
podcast, you've probably heardme mention more than once how

(01:21):
much I struggle with selfpromotion.
Sharing my accomplishments issomething I've never felt
comfortable with.
I always fear that I'm sayingthe wrong thing or worse that
I'm coming off as arrogant,cocky, or just pretentious.
I never want to be that person,So instead, I sometimes don't

(01:43):
share at all.
Which, after reading Lisa'sbook, I realized not only hurts
my business, but it also does adisservice to my network and
prospective clients.
You know, after talking to someother consultants, I know I'm
not alone with this issue.
So I thought, why not invite anactual expert in the art of self

(02:08):
promotion to the lounge to giveus some advice?
In this interview, Lisa and Italk more in depth about Why
being humble and not sharingyour accomplishments is a
disservice, as I mentioned, butI wanted to share a small
example of this with you.
Last week I wrote an article andI put off writing it for a very

(02:34):
long time and I did this out offear.
I was afraid my opinions weren'tnovel or that people wouldn't
agree with them.
It's always a bit scary for meto put myself out there.
It's honestly a miracle Iactually have a podcast.
Um, and it took a nudge from acolleague for me to finally do

(02:57):
it.
So once I went through the hardwork of writing this article, I
had the even harder job of oftelling people about it and
promoting it.
For me, this is always harderthan writing the damn thing.
Don't get me wrong, I wasexcited to finally get it out
there, but I'm afraid that myself-promotion will be viewed as

(03:22):
annoying or, as Lisa Braggstates, just adding to the noise
that's already out there.
I finally shared it and I alsoreached out to a few people that
I cited in my article to letthem know how helpful their work
was.
The response from one of thesefolks was pretty special.
They mentioned how honored theywere to know that their work was

(03:45):
helpful and to be cited in thearticle.
And they also mentioned thatthey were working on another
article that very same day thatmy message came in, but felt
like quitting.
Because it seemed like no oneever reads what they write.
It turns out my message gavethem hope and got them to

(04:07):
reconsider quitting.
It was really a circuitousmoment for me.
I realized that by writing myarticle, it brings more exposure
to other people that I've citedwho have helped me.
It really hit home to me howmuch we're all connected and
that we all need each other toshare our work and let each

(04:30):
other know what that work meansto us.
It's how we encourage learningand foster growth.
Anyway, it was a bit of an ahamoment for me that I thought was
cool and I just wanted to sharesince it really is a perfect
example of what this episode isall about.

(04:50):
If the thought of self promotionis icky for you, you'll be
comforted to learn that a lot ofit involves practicing
gratitude, which was a realrelief for me because I'm
definitely one of those peoplethat felt like it was icky.
As I mentioned, Lisa will talkmore about this, uh, we also

(05:11):
covered the cultural biases withself promotion, how to accept a
compliment without selfdeprecation.
Spoiler, it involves wigglingyour toes.
Yes, I'm being serious.
We also discussed dealing withtall poppy syndrome.
That's when people want to cutdown a person who stands out as

(05:32):
a high achiever.
Understanding that your networkcares about you and actually
wants to know about yoursuccesses.
Dealing with imposter syndrome,how fear of being a hundred
percent correct all the timeholds us back, how to handle
negative feedback.
And lastly, defining your threepillars that carry your vision

(05:54):
and point of view to make sureyou're self promoting with
purpose and providing real valuefor your audience.
So, we discussed a lot in thisinterview, but there's so much
more covered in Lisa's book.
I found her exercises in thebook to be very helpful, so if
you're interested in picking itup, the link is in the show

(06:14):
notes.
Let me tell you a little bitmore about Lisa before we get to
the interview.
She has devoted her life tohelping people be seen and heard
through sharing their value withthe world.
She's a popular speaker andstrategic advisor.
She provides consulting servicesand conducts workshops for
companies of all sizes.

(06:36):
Lisa is a former TV news anchor,reporter, videographer, and show
host.
So let's get to the interview.
Please enjoy Lisa Bragg.
Hi, Lisa.
Welcome to the UX consultantslounge.
I am so glad you are here.

Lisa Bragg (06:54):
Hi, Kyle.
Welcome.
Hi.
Nice to hear from everyone, too.

Kyle Soucy (06:57):
I just have to start by telling you how thankful I am
that you could take the time tobe my guest today on the show.
When I was reading your book, Ifelt like you were speaking
directly to me.
I've always struggled so muchwith, Feeling uncomfortable,
with self promotion.
And the feeling of ickiness forme whenever I try to share an

(07:21):
accomplishment is real.
And your book helped me toreframe it and understand how
necessary it is.
And that it doesn't have to beicky.
Within this community of UXconsultants, I know I'm not
alone in struggling with selfpromotion, and I thought it
would be a great gift to all ofus to have you on the show to

(07:42):
share some of your wisdom.

Lisa Bragg (07:45):
Happy to be here.
And it's funny how the word ickycomes up over and over again.
It came up in my internationalresearch.
It comes up in my own mind.
And it's so funny.
So we can try to take away someof that ickiness that we feel.
So we all feel, you know, how weshould feel is strong and having
more courage from it and maybesome more confidence to go get
those clients that we alreadydeserve.

Kyle Soucy (08:06):
Yeah, the second guessing, oh man, like after you
finally commit to doing it, andthen you're like, Oh, did I do
it right?
And it is, it's icky.
There's no better word for it, Idon't think, at least for me
personally.
but I'd love it if you could,start by having you explain why
self promotion is so important,especially for consultants.

Lisa Bragg (08:27):
Yeah, it's self promotion, especially nowadays.
It's getting louder and louderout there and the challenges
we're so used to just saying,Oh, our work will speak for
itself.
Aren't we so great?
Someone's going to talk about usand sing our praises.
But the reality is, everyone isso busy trying to keep
themselves going, trying to, youknow, Keep the people knowing
what they're doing, that they'retoo busy.

(08:48):
And so while they love you, theythink you did a great job.
They're not going to sing yourpraises.
And maybe people did that a longtime ago.
I know they did, but it's justtoo loud now.
So I think that's part of it.
And I'm always calling forpeople not to be part of the
noise that's out there, but tobe a signal.
So letting people know withclarity, intention, purpose,
what you're about and why.

(09:09):
And then that helps those peoplewho do have some capacity to
talk about you.
To then be able to talk aboutyou.
So, I think, why didn't I starttalking about myself more 20
years ago?
But it's that thing, you know,best day to plant a tree, was 20
years ago.
Other best day is today.
So starting today, starting onsome small steps to get yourself

(09:29):
out there.
And it's not an extrovert'sgame.
I know a lot of people in UXconsultants, you are, you're an
ambivert, most likely you're alittle bit of both, but some
days even when you don't havethat energy, it's not about
being out there and being theloudest, it's really that
strategic intention andpurposeful way that we can go
about this so we can feel goodand then really let the clients

(09:51):
know who we are meant to serve,that we're out there instead of
them going down to some mediocreconsultancy that's just maybe a
little bit louder than we are.

Kyle Soucy (09:59):
I, I love that point that you don't have to be loud
because I'm not comfortablepersonally being loud.
And it's a bit exhausting,feeling like it's never enough,
that everybody's doing it, and Ilove how you said you just, you
don't want to be part of thenoise, you want to be
contributing something of value.

Lisa Bragg (10:19):
I think even when somebody gives you a compliment,
so off the top, you said, youknow, you read my book and it
got in your head and your heartand hearing that I'm so quick to
start self deprecating.
I think that's another thingthat we do so quickly is self
deprecation where we'll putourselves down and start listing
the laundry list of things thatwe know in the background.
aren't going right.
And so holding ourselves to sayno, we want to make sure that

(10:42):
we're not going that selfdeprecation route, that we're
standing in compliments,standing in our successes and
owning it and then allowingpeople to know about our
successes that way instead ofstarting the self deprecation
route.
We're so quick on selfdeprecation.
It's it's unbelievable.
When I listen to people and yougive a compliment next time you
give a compliment, listen ifthey go to the self deprecation

(11:04):
route and if they do, Give themmy book.

Kyle Soucy (11:07):
talk about that a little bit, with self
deprecation, and you saidyourself, you were hearing the
compliment, and you immediatelyin your head started to go
there, what do you do to stopyourself from, you know, batting
that compliment away?
Okay.

Lisa Bragg (11:21):
Can I tell you it's actually really strange.
Ha ha ha ha I actually, if I'mstarting to feel like I'm going
to go down that self deprecationroute or deny a compliment,
which so many of us do.
I sometimes will wiggle my toesto ground myself to remind
myself, even if I'm sitting,I'll wiggle my toes.
Don't do it.
And that's a thing for sales,too.
Why am I talking right?

(11:42):
So wait, don't talk.
Wiggle your toes.
You know, instead of blurtingsomething out, if you know it
should be a process, wiggle yourtoes and it grounds you from
saying things that maybe youshouldn't be saying.
So when somebody gives me acompliment and I'm starting to
feel that.
That self deprecation monstercoming up.
I ground myself, self wiggle mytoes.

(12:02):
So it's a, it's a strange trick.
But, you know, some people willdo tapping to stop them from
habits.
But it's something that you haveto just remember.
Okay, stop.
You know, zip it.
Don't say anything after someonegives you a compliment.
The only thing you should besaying is, Thank you.
And that's it.
Nothing else.
And it's so quick to start thelaundry list.

(12:23):
So, you know, I think a lot ofus are culturally, it's a
cultural thing.
We want to, we don't want you tothink that we're better, that
we're talking about ourselvestoo much, and so we want to
lessen ourselves.
But that's not what people arelooking for.
They really want you to knowyour stuff.
You are the expert, or you'rethe visionary, you're the
thought leader.
So when you're self deprecating,you're lowering yourself.
And, you know, the challenge iswhen people self deprecate,

(12:46):
Okay.
Their audience.
So your client will start tobelieve those negative things
you say.
Humans have a tendency to anegative negativity bias.
So we're hearing those negativethings.
We will say, Oh, well she knowsherself.
So if she doesn't think she'sthat great after I told her
those things, then okay.
Huh.
So she's not that great.

(13:06):
Oops.
Maybe I'll go to somebody elsedown the hall.
So wiggle your toes.

Kyle Soucy (13:11):
That makes so much sense.
The negativity bias, I cantotally see how that you could
be swaying them in a way youdon't want to.
And the wiggle your toes, that'ssuch a great trick.
I think giving yourselfsomething physical to do that,
that might work for me.
I could see that, because youphysically almost have to stop
yourself from going down thatpath.

(13:33):
But you mentioned too, Goodwork, we all want to be
recognized for it and almostexpect to be, without having to
ask for it.
And I love how in your book youmentioned how you, I think
rightfully disagreed with AdamGrant's view about, you know,
good work speaks for itself.
And sadly, I don't think itdoes.

Lisa Bragg (13:54):
You know, again, when we were in small
communities, our kin would talkabout us and say, Hey, you know
what, Kyle should really bedoing this.
She's awesome at it.
And don't let Lisa anywhere nearthat.
But we don't have that anymore.
And we're also in a world wherepeople are talking a lot about
merit and merit works whenyou're close to success when
you're close to those people ofpower.

(14:14):
If you're not close to thoseclients that you want or those
opportunities you want, how doyou get there?
How do you let them know aboutit?
And so when Adam Grant sayingthese things that, you know,
bragging violates modesty norms,and if you're that good, your
work would speak for itself orsomething like that.
It's such a challenging.
things cause then How can mywork be that loud that it's
going to speak for itself?

(14:36):
When we're in a world wherethere's so much going on with
attention.
We have our own fires to put outand our own clients to serve.
So that's where we really do.
It's about self advocacy.
We have to be able to tell ourown stories so that other people
will be able to tell our storieson our behalf.
And of course, we want to helpother people along the way and
hopefully they'll turn intobrand ambassadors for us, but to

(14:57):
wait for other people to,acknowledge your work.
I think that's just not amindset that you can have in
this competitive world we livein today.

Kyle Soucy (15:06):
Yeah, you put it perfectly.
I definitely highlighted thatbecause it spoke to me as a
consultant, that you can't sella secret that everyone needs to
build social currency.
And then you also said, waitingfor others to notice you is not
a good marketing strategy.
And I just immediately bowed myhead like, yep, that's exactly

(15:28):
what I'm doing.

Lisa Bragg (15:29):
But you know, Kyle, I do it sometimes too.
So I'm out here, I do all thesethings, and then I retreat.
And then sometimes it's like,well, should I give up?
I'm not doing the things.
But you have to keep comingback, and it's a practice.
And so that's why I love hearingmy book is highlighted, dog
eared, and kept in a specialplace because you have to come
back to the work, and you haveto keep trying because so many
of us in consulting work, we getso busy in doing the work that

(15:52):
we're not out there talkingabout all the great.
Our work is doing in the world.
So we have to come back to it.
Hopefully we get into a practiceof it, but it's that back and
forth of it.
So, sometimes you will be outthere and you'll think, is this
too much?
Is it too much?
The Lisa show, the Kyle show,but that's very self centered.
People are not paying enoughattention.

(16:12):
They're just not, becausethey're doing their own thing.
And so you could go away, be offall the social media, not
contact people for a littlewhile, and still come back to
it, and they'll be like, Oh,wasn't, didn't I just see this
yesterday, or talk to youyesterday?
Because we have that bias inourselves, thinking that, we're
center stage.
So, but other people don't havethat.
And so that's where, you can putthe same social media post out

(16:36):
again and again and again andhave different comments on it
and people likely actually won'teven notice.
So maybe the same post everyquarter or every time this year,
the next year, put it out everytime in March, every time in
February, they're not going tonotice.
Only you will know.

Kyle Soucy (16:51):
And that is something, talked with two
episodes ago with Erica and MikeMontero, they mentioned the
importance of having to repeatyourself online.
And I was like, Ooh, thatimmediately made me cringe.
I'm so afraid to do that.
And I know you have to.
I, I do.
Get it, but something about it.
I don't like you mentionedbefore I want to be part of the
noise But recognizing that wecan't just assume that you put

(17:15):
one thing out there that it'sseen in that moment It could be
very much lost in that moment.

Lisa Bragg (17:20):
Totally lost.
And I think a lot of people arelike me, anyone on this call,
you're probably thinking, I haveto put something new out there,
another idea so they can see howsmart I am and how, how forward
thinking I am and how I'm goingto really serve them.
And so we think, Oh, I have toput something new out.
Yes.
And keep to those messages,those pillars that you've built
to say, Oh, my body of workreally means this.

(17:42):
And so you want to not justconstantly go for the new shiny
thing, but also reinforce whatyour values are, what your
pillars are.
So your clients know.
How to use you and I thinkthat's part of it for it's like
always something new.
No, repeat, repeat, repeat andthen add a little bit of new.
When we're always adding new toit takes a lot more energy and
so conserving energy, not makingthis so tiresome for yourself,

(18:07):
it's another job that you don'tneed to have.

Kyle Soucy (18:10):
Yes.
Yeah, and When we were talkingabout What Adam Grant said about
how good work speaks for itselfand Really in a perfect world,
right?
Maybe if we were all equal andwe all treated ourselves equally
then yeah, but You mentionedhow?
Meritocracy, it sounds like onthe surface that it should work,

(18:34):
People get success or powerbecause of their abilities not
because of money or socialposition But that's only works
if you're in that elite group,but typically with the world
that we live in now, you have tobe lucky enough to be in the
group to be recognized.

Lisa Bragg (18:48):
Yeah, that's the reality of it.
If you're not already, how arethey going to know?
They're not mind readers.
I interviewed a panel from Japanand the way they get jobs.
There is that your leader issupposed to read your mind it's
called the Sura.
And a lot of Western we're verymuch individualistic here.
We're not as collectivist.
So maybe they can they it worksover there.
But for our area, like you haveto let people know we're not

(19:10):
good mind readers over here atall.
So it's letting people know howyou are of service.
And we think that they're justgonna find I would love it if
people found me on my tiny pieceof the Internet.
But they're not.
They're not unless I'm out theretalking about what I'm doing and
how I am of service.
And when we feel that Braggingand self promotion is icky.

(19:31):
We have to reframe it to thinkof it is how I am of service.
And so that's the reframe.
It's being of service to otherpeople.
And that lessens that, okay, I'mgoing to talk about myself.
It's how I am of service.
And I know with Adam Grant andthe social norms, we have been
conditioned to not talk aboutour successes.
And to hold back that is ideal,but that's not the reality, and

(19:55):
it's interesting to you once youhit.
Like, for politicians orcelebrities, we all talk about
them over and over and overagain.
And Adam Grant, for example, hetalks about himself quite a bit
and lets you know how many bookshe's sold and all of his
accolades.
So it's like just, there's adisconnect in messages.
The message is for you, but notfor him.
So that doesn't apply.

(20:17):
So I don't really get it, and Iasked him, but just says it's
too risky for people, especiallywomen and minorities to talk
about their successes because ofpast studies and past research.
So it was a really gift that hesaid that, because then I went
to really look in depth aboutwhat the research said, and most
of the research was done onuniversity students, American
university students and verysmall cohorts.

(20:39):
So we're basing a lot of thisinformation on how.
Bragging and self promotionmight be bad for you based on
small, groups of people.
And I just think that, it mightbe hard to do because we're so
conditioned to talk about otherpeople, but you have to do it.
So how do we take off thatnegativity and make it a
positive thing?
And the reframe is to, to be ofservice to other people.

Kyle Soucy (21:02):
Yeah, and you mentioned, Japan and I loved how
you talked about cultural normsin your book and how it's
different, bragging is vieweddifferently, and I think with
the Japanese it was braggingthrough writing instead of
vocally, and I could, I can seethat.
I can see how I'm much morebrave eventually if I can get a

(21:22):
social post out there to say, towrite it than to actually say
that.

Lisa Bragg (21:28):
Yeah, I think it's just for them.
They're just starting to get toit where we're much further
along.
But I think one of the bigbiggest tips is is that it's
context.
So when you're talking to otherconsultants and you're saying
you did this and you landed thisclient, that's context.
So if they're also successful,they don't see it as.
As a bragging as a negative.
So, I should probably definewhat bragging is just so we're

(21:49):
all on the same page because,um, in that research, they
didn't define what braggingmeant.
And so bragging means to talkabout one's success with pride.
And my reframe is that pridealso means justified self love.
So you deserve to talk aboutthose successes.
And then self aggrandizement.
That's that's that ickiness thatwe get confused.

(22:11):
And back in my broadcastingdays, that would be a 50 dollar
word.
So it was, I mean, 5 word.
So 50 now, but selfaggrandizement.
That's that puffery, thatickiness that I'm better than
you, that only one person canwin.
That's what we missed.
We missed the mark and thinkthat bragging is that and it's
different.
So that's something to considerWhen you're looking at the word

(22:31):
brag and bragging and it is mylast name.
It has been so I have

Kyle Soucy (22:35):
Which is so

Lisa Bragg (22:35):
Definitely.
Yeah, so I've studied the wordin its meaning and it used to
mean shine shimmer and braveryin multiple languages And so I
think it's as we went into thisfactory system that we started
to want to be part of a cog inthe machine, and I definitely
don't want us to be cogs in anymachine now.
So we don't want to just put ourheads down, do good work, and

(22:55):
eventually someone will noticeyou type of thing because it's
just not going to happen for us.
And so that's where we take ourbrag that thing we want to talk
about our success, and we turnit into self promotion.
And self promotion can beanything that you want.
It's doing this podcast.
It's telling someone about thispodcast as a listener.
It's writing a review for thispodcast.

(23:16):
It's picking up the phone andcalling a client or potential
client or someone who Hey, whodo you know that might need this
service?
That's all self promotion.
So it's not all about writingthat massive LinkedIn article or
getting published or being inthe news.
It's any small tactic that youcan take.
So self promotion, it are thetactics that you put your brag

(23:37):
out into the world.
How do we let people know thatwe're awesome?
And in the book, I talk abouthow somebody put a billboard up
in Times Square and it wasreally just meant for one
person, like that's how peopledo.
You can do something that's oneperson.
So instead of thinking that wehave to broadcast to everyone.
Narrow cast.
Find that one person or 20people that you really need to

(23:57):
talk to and think about yourmessage for them at all times.

Kyle Soucy (24:01):
I love that.
And you mentioned, about selfpromotion also being about
connecting and, and givingrecognition to others.
And I think, that we forget thattoo, that, anybody who's
inspired you, letting them knowthat that is just such a gift
that you can give them.
And that in return, it helpseveryone, It helps yourself, it

(24:23):
helps them, I think you put itas, give more to the world than
we take from it.
And I, I thought that wasbeautiful, just not to act
entitled and not to have thepurpose of whatever we share to
be to, to dim or blow out otherpeople's light.
That was beautiful.

Lisa Bragg (24:37):
Oh, thank you.
I'm wiggling my toes right now.
But you know what?
The reality is we're all here onthe shoulders of giants.
People have come before us anddone great hard things.
And we will continue to do greathard things.
So if you want to lessen thatfeeling of ickiness.
Acknowledge other people.
And I wish, I wish, wish, wish Icould take credit for this, but,

(24:59):
a research group made up theword.
It's braggitude.
So have your brag, that thingyou want to say, hey, I did this
great thing in the world, andI'm thankful for, so hey, I'm on
this great podcast, look at me,and I'm thankful for Kyle for
having me on, like, it's thatsimple, so whatever it is, is a
brag, I did this thing, and I'mthankful for all the people that

(25:20):
helped me get there, and that'sas simple when you win an award,
never say you're humble aboutit, cause that, lowers the award
to that.
All those people who didn't winor the judges or the quality of
the award.
When we're humbled, we thinkwe're less than something and
that diminishes so many things.
So, and it really is actuallyirking a lot of people.
When you say you're humbled todo this, you can have humility,

(25:42):
of course, but to say I'm lessthan I shouldn't have received
it.
Oh, my goodness.
Why would they choose me?
That kind of stuff.
It diminishes.
It's so many people around youand it diminishes the award or
the client for choosing you.
Oh, I wouldn't know why theychose me.
Oh my goodness.
And it's also, it's turning intoa humble brag, which is also a
no, no.
So humble brag is where you havea brag plus a complaint.

(26:06):
Oh, the traffic in New York isso bad, especially in my
Lamborghini, like that kind ofthing.
Oh my goodness.
So out of touch, but that's,that's what a humble brag is.
So don't diminish your brag,stand in your brag, be powerful
in it.
And then stop talking.
Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (26:22):
it makes so much sense and, you know, not to
cancel a brag or add aqualifier.
You gave the example of, I'm nottrying to brag, but, and then
doing it,

Lisa Bragg (26:33):
but you know what?
People won't call it out assomething negative.
If you just stand in it and ifthey do see it's negative or
feel like it's negative.
What's with them?
I think you get into trickyissues when you're talking a lot
about wealth, especiallynowadays.
So if you're puttingLamborghinis or fancy things on,
that's when people start to feellike, uh, but if you give the
example in the book where.

(26:53):
This woman, she helps peoplewith super yachts.
And so when the people who havesuper yachts are talking to each
other, it's different than whenthey're talking to people who
are outside the super yachtcommunity.
And so it's context matters somuch knowing who your audience
is and how you're meant toserve.
That's really a big part of howyou set up a brag and help it

(27:14):
land successfully.
But if it doesn't, and we can'tworry about, is this going to
land with them?
We have to know our audience andmake sure that it has good
context.
Like I'm saying this becausethere's intention, but we can't
worry too much about how itlands because otherwise we'll
never do it.

Kyle Soucy (27:29):
Yeah.

Lisa Bragg (27:29):
so that's where we have to start taking baby steps
into feeling more and morecomfortable with bragging and
self promotion.

Kyle Soucy (27:36):
You know, I want to do something a little different
here.
What I want to do is share withyou, what I think is a perfect
example of something super icky.
And I'm very curious to know ifyou feel the same way or if I
perhaps have, maybe a limitedview of what I should be doing
and, accepting as okay in oursociety.

(27:58):
But this is something that.
It turned me off immediately inour industry that happens, or it
used to happen a lot more oftenthan it happens now, but let me
just set the, context here.
Back when Twitter was Twitter,before it became X and also
before Twitter got.
toxic.
I think before it died, at leastfor our industry, there was

(28:18):
design Twitter, which was amess.
but before it became toxic, theUX community really thrived
there to where we connected andwe were able to self promote.
We were able to learn about eachother, our accomplishments, our
thoughts, our feelings onthings.
And it was just, it was a goodplace.
but there was a common practicethat I personally could not

(28:39):
stand.
And that was, Retweeting acompliment there were a few
really bad offenders that wouldjust retweet without even adding
a comment And they would do itrepeatedly if they spoke at a
conference in the morning Theywould spend the afternoon
retweeting every tweet thatmentioned them and how great
they were and I gotta say That'snauseating to me.

(29:01):
And I, I would sit there, youknow, this is really like 18
years ago, and I thought, I justnever want to be that person.
because most people, right, theydon't brag this way in the real
world.
They don't announce with amegaphone that someone else
thinks they're brilliant.
But I would love a reality checkfrom you as someone who is an
expert on this.

(29:22):
is that the right way to belooking at that?
Or should I, Possibly soften myview on it or

Lisa Bragg (29:27):
Good one.
Very sure.
For sure.
a couple things.
So first of all, I would say,why are you paying that much
attention to them?
So back on you.
So what is it about you that is,it's connecting and you're
thinking, Oh my goodness, likethis is too much that.
So that's off and on the personwho's watching and thinking
that.
So what is it about it for you?

(29:48):
Honestly, not, you don't have toanswer it here, but why were you
feeling that?
Is it because It was too much.
It was something you didn'thave, what is it about your own
self that you felt that way?

Kyle Soucy (30:00):
I can absolutely answer.
I think from when I was young Itwas exactly what you painted in
the book, which again, I it feltlike it was written for me It's
like I believed at a young age,you'd be a good girl You put
your head down you do good workand that people would recognize
you and I had that deep rootedfear of judgment But I look at

(30:21):
those retweets and I, I think ohmy goodness, you're being so
boastful, self aggrandizing, youknow, just insufferable.
And it's, it goes againsteverything that I don't know if
I was taught it or if I justfelt it just from the time that
I could remember that you'rejust not supposed to be.

Lisa Bragg (30:37):
That's exactly it.
We're taught that.
But that person was saying, I'mnot gonna live by that.
They know that Twitter,especially back in the day, it
was a fast moving subway.
And so if you didn't put thingsout, people were on and off so
fast.
So it wasn't like we werelingering to read anything.
So, that person was droppingthings in as they went, knowing

(30:57):
that their audience probablywasn't paying that much
attention And well, people were.
And so what does the audiencerespond to?
But there are ways to do what hedid.
I'm going to just assume it wasa guy, but there are things to
do what he did, but do it overtime and do it in a way that has
a little bit more of an elevatedfeel.

(31:19):
But when you see someonecongratulating themselves and
being successful, understandwhat it's doing.
First of all, to yourself, likewhy are you reacting this way
and what does it matter?
And then that's how you canstart to understand, okay, well,
I don't want to do that, butthen what can I do?
Because is that person gettingahead?
Are they doing bigger thingsbecause of that?
Because people can see him as asuccess because success begets

(31:43):
success.
When people see that you'resuccessful, and I'm not saying
go out there and fake beingsuccessful, but when they can
see that you've already workedthese great clients, you're
winning awards, they want to becloser to that.
And so we do have to put it outthere.
But that's where, Twitter, it'swhere it is now.
But when you see people.
Constantly putting out the samemessage.

(32:04):
Then you wonder, well do theyhave anything else to talk
about?
that's a bit of a problem.
So there's a pattern that we cando for these things.
So we can talk about the otherwinners.
And say, look who else.
Cause when you talk about otherpeople winning the same awards.
Then you put yourself in a peergroup of these excellent people.
But you're doing it in a waythat's more nuanced.
So you're congratulating otherpeople saying.

(32:25):
They won this award too.
So you want to put you can putthem up in front.
I usually want to put yourselfbecause so many of us are so
limited on our bragging and selfpromotion.
I usually say put yourselfnumber one.
But if you are really good atit, put yourself number two.
So you congratulate someoneelse.
You know who won this award.
And then add yourself in.
So for you, I definitely say putyourself first and say, Hey,

(32:46):
here are the other people thatare awesome that won the award.
But to repeat it over and overagain, I think that person was
also maybe doing a just spray itkind of thing.
So I would wonder what theirother social media was about.
But you can often go hand inhand with congratulating other
people, thanking the judges.
Having that braggatude is abetter way to go about it than

(33:06):
just really.
Spraying your whole feed withthe same message.
I think it gets to be crass atthe end that it's too much of
one message.
Mix it up.
Come back to it in a month ortwo.
things like that instead of justover and over again about your
award.
I hope that's helpful, butthere's some unpacking to do
there.

Kyle Soucy (33:25):
It is, I'm going to probably get the pronunciation
wrong, but, schadenfreude, youknow, taking pleasure in someone
else's misfortune.
You talked about freudenfreude,which I actually didn't even
know was a thing, being happyfor someone else's joy or
success.
And I want to be, but a personlike that makes it so darn hard
to be because you're beating usover the head with it, you know?

(33:46):
And I think because I so badlydon't want to be that person, I
don't do anything, which is notgood either, because we miss an
opportunity to, like you said,to also thank others and
recognize others in that.

Lisa Bragg (34:00):
And people want to see your success, Kyle.
They want to see what you're upto.
So, there's a happy mediumbetween bombarding a feed with
it and then taking some morestrategic and really purposeful
steps.
You already know what you don'twant to be.
That's the extreme of it all.
You don't have to do all thosethings, but you have to do some
things.
So, what are the things that youwant to do?

(34:22):
And especially if you're puttingit out on social media, what are
those things that you really dowant to have, you know, that
people will see that people willconnect with in a deeper way.
But then I also challenged tosay, what are you doing behind
the scenes?
So we have a social media piecethat people will connect to, but
are we going back and seeing whoelse?
That we can connect with thatwill brag to that doesn't have

(34:43):
to be so overt and so open onthe social media channels
because there's a lot of ways todo it.
That's not about social media.
So that's my key to that is ifthe social media piece is just
too icky.
Don't start there.

Kyle Soucy (34:56):
Okay,

Lisa Bragg (34:56):
with people that you know, letting them again.
You went back to a greatsuggestion is giving someone a
compliment.
Start with that.
And then adding in, or I'mreally thankful for this is
what's happened and it happenedbecause of you, right?
So those kind of small stepsinto it instead of, you know,
bombarding your feed with howawesome you are.

(35:17):
Because there's also the tallpoppy where, so the tall poppy
is, term from Australia.
It's in the UK.
It's, it's growing widely nowwhere people understand that
there's so many of us who are,Awesome and doing great things
and we grow and maybe we'reabove our peers and so people
like to lob off the head.
So a tall poppy, poppies, theydon't want them to grow in
uniform.
Anything that's above it, theytake the top off of it.

(35:40):
So it's like kind of the tallestnail gets hammered down.
There's several differentframes.
Longest blade of grass isanother one gets mowed first,
those kind of things.
But We can't dim our lightwaiting for other people to
expect them to see us if we'renot giving them something to go
on.
So, you know, you can write alittle email to somebody saying,
I want to let you know I didthis.

(36:00):
I had a friend actually, she wasjust on the show, Taylor Swift
Effect.
She wrote this great email toeveryone she knew and just
saying, I'm going to be on thisNBC show for Taylor Swift about
the Swift Effect.
Cause she took all thesepictures of Taylor Swift.
And Jasmeet sent this emailsaying, I'm really excited about
it.
I'm and she doesn't do it allthe time.
I think this is only twice thatI've ever received any kind of

(36:23):
this self congratulations email.
But it's also something that Iwanted to share in.
I wanted to see her joy and herexcitement in what she was
doing.
And then also, how can Ichampion her?
Because I care about her.
And that's the thing.
If you care about someone, theywant to know that people are
really offended.
That's what the research foundis that.
People are offended if they findout after the fact about

(36:46):
something that you were, you hada success in that you didn't
brag about and they find outlater, people are offended by
that.
And so think of it that way.
I don't want to offend people.
So if my friend Jasmeet hadn'ttold me that she was on NBC and
at a primetime show and it was abig feature and I found out
later, like, why didn't you tellme?

(37:06):
One, I wanted to watch itbecause it was interesting.
Two, I want to cheer my friendson in their successes.
And also, she's a professionalfriend.
So, what opportunities couldcome to her that I could help
her with that will then help mein some way?
Because there is definitely thehalo effect on so many things we
do.
You know, you help me, I helpyou.
That's part of meritocracy.

(37:26):
That's how it starts to movefaster.
So, if I know about how you aresuccessful, then I can help you.
And so Jasmine, she sent it outsaying this is coming up and
then she said, Hey, if youmissed it, here's the link.
I have it up for just a littlewhile before, the NBC people
come after me.
But she gave that opportunityand it was beautiful to see it.
So just small things that peopledo really want to share in your

(37:49):
success.
It's called Shoi.
And I did not make that upeither, but Shoi, we want to
share in other people's joy.
I think especially now there'sso much.
negativity, heavy news, havingsome shoi, sharing those good
things in your life, sharing,putting the spotlight on other
people.
That's what really makes adifference right now.
And you'll actually stand outbecause of how noisy it is with

(38:12):
negativity.

Kyle Soucy (38:13):
know, that reminds me that you made a great point
too in your book about how,bringing people along for the
journey, it doesn't have to bethat end moment when you
finally, Finish the book orwhatever it is you're doing,
cause I know, speaking formyself, that can hold me back,
too, at times, not wanting toshare the work in progress, and
I didn't really get that, thatthe milestones are just as

(38:36):
important, and it makes, itmakes the end that much better
when people, you've taken peoplealong the journey with you.

Lisa Bragg (38:43):
It does.
And that also lessens that ideaof self aggrandizement because
if all of a sudden you show upin your private plane, but they
never saw the work that you didto get the private plane, that's
the disconnect that people feel.
And then that's when we start togo into self aggrandizement.
But when they've seen that youput the hours in and did the
things and, you know, got yourpilot's license and then got

(39:03):
enough money to buy a plane, allthose things, then It feels in
context.
And then we want to celebrateyou.
But context is really important.
So the audience that you'rewith, maybe they all have
private planes.
Maybe they all work that hard.
But what is it that you'retrying to tell them?
And why?
How does it help your causeinstead?
If you've ever gone to aplayground, you'll hear that
mother or father that talksabout little Johnny and all the

(39:25):
things, the laundry list of hisaccomplishments, all the
milestones he made.
And he's in this percentile.
You don't want to be thatperson.
You want to be really strategicabout.
What you're bragging about, andwhy, and how you're putting it
out into the world.
So I think that's where yourTwitter person, the, the
reference you gave, he wasn'tbeing very strategic about it
and having intention behind whathe was doing.

(39:48):
And so that's what I wanteveryone to do is be strategic
and have intention and don't belike those school yard,
playground parents just talking,rhyming off all the lists of
things.
It's what's the point?
Why is this important to mylife?
You know, what is it about youraudience?
And that's what UX people arealways about.
It's like, what's my audiencereally need?
What do I need to let them know?

(40:09):
But what do they need to hear?
And, you know, we always want tomarket to where we want to go.
We have these solid reputations,these great things in the past
that we've done.
We need to signal to ouraudiences where we're going next
so that they'll be able toeither help us along our journey
a lot faster or refer us to thenext client.
They'll be able to really moveus forward further, faster,
instead of waiting just onhaving that next certificate or

(40:32):
worrying about a reputation.

Kyle Soucy (40:34):
Yeah, that's a great point.
The next certificate thathappens in our industry to where
we feel there's this, feelingthat we are, pretending,
imposter syndrome, where, youknow, if we just get one more
certification, if we just getone more degree, or a PhD, or
whatever, then we'll be worthy.
Then we will, achieve whatever.

(40:54):
And of course, a lot of usrealize that that's not the
case.
so it gets to be a little bit ofa trap, a hamster wheel.

Lisa Bragg (41:01):
Totally a hamster wheel.
That's exactly it.
Because one, then you have toget another.
And you know why?
It's because you're already oneof those people that is smart.
You are innovative.
You're thinking ahead.
You are a visionary, most likelyfor sure, an expert, a leader,
definitely.
But you have all these things.
And so You, achieve somethingand then you look ahead and
you're like, Oh, well, I'mchanging the goalpost over

(41:22):
there.
And so we never get thatgoalpost.
It's, it's like an S curve.
It's okay, I think I know whatI'm doing.
Then I'm going to change course.
I'm going to do something else.
I don't know what I'm doing.
And then I, Oh, I'm going toget, I'm going to master this
and understand it.
Then I'm going to jump again.
Like we just, once we go throughthis like crazy S curve of
feelings, this rollercoaster,Then we jump to the next thing.

(41:43):
And, you know, back in ourparents or great grandparents
day, they would have the samejob for 30 or 40 years.
And so they didn't feel this wayor things were changing so
slowly.
The incremental changes were inour day and age were the first.
no one's done this before.
I don't have anyone to ask.
I don't have that referenceexcept for that new reference.

(42:05):
And so we feel that I call itimposter experience because it's
an experience we have from timeto time, especially as we're
stretching or doing somethingnew.
And it's so much in ourgeneration because we're
constantly doing new things andgeneration.
I mean, in this time and placethat we're in, we're all doing
new things.
We've gone through, you know,we're in the third industrial

(42:27):
revolution for so long.
Yeah.
Then the fourth and we're in thefifth, like we don't even know
where we are because things aremoving so fast.
So AI, you know, you wake up andthere's a new AI model that's
doing amazing things.
So when you feel like you're animposter, again, wiggle your
toes, but know that everyoneelse around you is in the exact
same experience.

(42:47):
And if they don't articulate it,it's because they haven't.
Realize that they should andthey just hold it in so everyone
else is in the same boat thatthey're feeling this imposter
experience because it's all newto all of us all the time now.

Kyle Soucy (43:00):
Yeah, you're not alone.

Lisa Bragg (43:01):
You're not alone and if anyone, I don't have that,
then you're not stretchingyourself.
I would challenge like if youdon't feel like you're an
imposter from time to time.
Then you're not stretching toknow that you are challenging
yourself and saying I'm a fishout of water here I don't really
know what I'm doing That's okay.
We don't know what we don't knowand we have to keep striving to

(43:21):
To say it's okay.
It's okay Enroll to get thosetoes going you'll have great
toes by the end of this

Kyle Soucy (43:29):
That's a really good point and it actually kind of
segues nicely into anotherquestion I had.
because you mentioned howimportant it is to have a point
of view.
I think you quoted Seth Godin inyour book about, um, Where he
said, having a point of view isdifferent from always being
correct.
No one is always correct.

(43:50):
Hiding because you're not suremerely makes you invisible.
And I know I can speak formyself here.
I think I say that often in thisepisode, but I often hold myself
back because I'm afraid to saythe wrong thing or that I'm
making a statement that mightnot be correct, rather than just
sharing an opinion or just mypoint of view on something.

Lisa Bragg (44:12):
You know it comes down to risk and regret.
So, we're so afraid of risk, butat the end of the day, at the
very end of all of our days It'sregret that is worse for us.
And so taking the risk in themoment of shame of guilt of all
those feelings that we run awayfrom is better to have that than

(44:33):
to be at the end of the year andregret that you didn't do those
things or worse be at the end ofyour life and regret that you
didn't do it.
What I tell people do it.
This is risky business.
It is risky.
You're putting yourself outthere.
And so especially nowadays whereit's all online and people can
see it is a risk.
But taking the risk today willget you some steps forward where

(44:54):
then in the future you willregret not having moved forward
at all.
So you have to think about whatreally matters to me.
What is my point of view ofthings?
What do I want to say?
What do I want to tell theworld?
And then put it out there.
And again, it can be in a verystrategic way.
So it's something very risky.
Make it low stakes at first.
So you gain that courage.

(45:15):
And don't wait till you'reconfident because that never
happens.
But gain that courage to do thatnext bigger thing and the next
bigger thing.
So many people hide their workinstead of showing it a little
bit messy and saying here, it'snot perfect.
You know, my hair is not perfecttoday.
My hair makeup is not all done.
It's like all those things wewait till perfection happens.
But then the goalpost has movedagain and society's changed and

(45:37):
something else has happened andthen we never get it done.
And you know, I think there'ssomething to it when you have an
idea and you don't take the riskto put it out there and somebody
else puts it out there.
It's like, wait a minute.
That was my idea.
I I invented Spanx.
You know, like there's so manyof us that we're already doing
something like that with ourhomemade pantyhose and things

(45:57):
like that.
But she took the risk and didall those things.
And it's wow, the reward is soworth it.
So we just we conflate what therisk is versus regret versus
reward.
And so we have to understandwhere is our risk tolerance.
And I want people to have fearplus 10%.
So you should be a little bitafraid.
It should be a little bit like,I don't know what I'm doing.

(46:18):
the butterflies.
Get to that edge of that divingboard.
Put your toes over.
Look and do it.
And that's, you know, the riskplus ten percent.
Fear plus ten percent.

Kyle Soucy (46:27):
I think that, when we do put ourselves out there,
and sometimes it's not wellreceived, you know, how should.
People handle feedback orcriticism when they put
themselves out there, and theynot get a hater, but they get
some negative feedback.

Lisa Bragg (46:44):
Well, congratulations.
You've made it.

Kyle Soucy (46:47):
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Lisa Bragg (46:49):
The haters will come.
If you are doing successfulthings, they will come.
There are, there are enoughpeople who are like the tall
poppy.
They want to cut you downbecause it's something about
them.
So realize it's about them.
It's not about you.
It's not about the work thatyou're doing.
Now, if they're doing somethingwrong and you get that, well,
there you go.
But most of us are doing greatwork and those haters just come

(47:10):
along when we started to headinto that next level.
And they think they should bringus back down to our levels.
So I think good on you.
Great.
Don't spend time on it.
Only go to the people that youvalue.
I think it was Brene Brown orsomeone like her that it's like
they take a little swear.
And those little sticky notes,and then we write the six or
seven people that really matterto them, their opinions.

(47:32):
And those opinions are the onlyones they're going to ask for
and care about.
And so if they get the haters,the trolls.
Don't worry about it.
Ignore it.
I let trolls bring me down forso long.
I posted something way long agowhen the internet was new that
was really about how newspaperswere gonna die and my
background's journalism.
And I had, I mistook the wordeffect with affect and they took

(47:56):
me down hardcore, flames, badand it stopped me from writing
and posting for a long time.
Well, what a regret that is.
I think I lost so much time fromsocial currency.
So building up my self online ofdoing all these great things
because I let that take me down.
Such a small thing that nobodyeven cares about now at all.

(48:17):
So, but you let it hold youback.
I'm not worthy.
Oh no, I am embarrassed myselfin front of my peers.
Most people don't even thinktwice about you when you make a
mistake.
So, you know, I wish I couldtell that young girl to have
dusted herself off and get backright into the melee, but I
didn't.
But just remembering that nowthat's a story that other people
can learn from is just don'tworry what the haters say.

(48:41):
Don't get caught up in it.
Just take a moment, take a beatcause it's going to hurt.
We're not machines.
But then move forward and thencall a friend if, if it really
does hurt, who is going to cheeryou on and light you up or pick
up my book because I've beentold I'm like your cheerleader
in your head.
So hopefully I'm doing that foryou now, but it's, it's really

(49:02):
that we can't stay in it and Italk about in the book, it's a
shame.
Like we feel shame, just, changeshame into guilt.
Our human connection, we allow,we feel shame longer than we
feel guilt.
It's so weird that we do thatbecause I'll get in a shame
spiral and I'll stay in that.
So just say no.
I have shame because I didn'tknow the word affect.

(49:22):
So I should have looked it up.

Kyle Soucy (49:25):
Mm hmm.

Lisa Bragg (49:26):
So I'm guilty of not perfecting my prose.
I'm guilty of not checking.
But I shouldn't have shamebecause of that.
And I know this is a trivialexample, but there's so many
things in our lives that it'slike that.
So move it into the guiltycategory, and then I, oh, I can
do that.
I can accomplish that next time.
I know if I do these things,then I'm, check mark, I can

(49:46):
accomplish that.
Then, whew, it's gone.
So move it from the shame bucketto the guilty bucket.
Figure out what it was that youcould have done, and then check
it off your list, because it'sdone, and next time you're going
to rock it.

Kyle Soucy (49:58):
you know, I, that's a good point.
I don't feel like it was a, likea small example at all.
Cause it's sometimes those smallthings that, that really haunt
us for a long time, which iscrazy, but it does, you know, we
get into that.
Uh, it's hard to pull ourselvesout of that.
So that, I think that's such agood point, such a good reminder
that we should not live in shameover something so small that

(50:20):
happens, and let it hold usback.
but in the few minutes we haveleft, one thing I was curious
about, I was wondering if youcould, talk a little bit more
about what you call definingyour three pillars that carry
your vision and point of view,and that you should refer to
whenever you're self promoting.

Lisa Bragg (50:39):
Well, because then that takes us away from talking
about everything like, what doyou want to stand for?
And so so many people, they itgoes to storytelling.
They don't know what storiesthey should tell.
What story should I tell people?
And we think we should have justbe instantly able to tell a
story.
That would be great.
But most of us have to know whatis my point of view on
something?
What is what are the pillarsthat I am going to talk about?

(51:01):
And so defining them.
So taking so I give this rifftool to people.
I say, set a timer.
And write down all the thingsthat you think you're qualified
to talk about, or that you feellike you should talk about, or
tell someone, or teach someone,or have a client call you on
these things.
So write them all down.
Set a timer.
Five minutes.
Write all the things down.
Let's do three minutes first.

(51:22):
So write them all down and thensee what's common in there and
start to bucket them and then doit again and More and more
things will come up So first ofall, you're defining what your
pillars maybe should be becauseyou can really talk about those
things for a while And thenyou're also starting to develop
stories that hey, I had a storyabout that I should bring that

(51:42):
story up.
And so we're doing two thingswhen we start the riff tool.
So starting with that Set atimer, write all the things that
you can talk about, and thenstart to say what buckets should
these go in, and then whatstories are coming out of this.
So that's a place to start tosay, here's how I define my
pillars and my point of viewwith that.

(52:02):
Having a point of view is reallythat I'm going to take a stance
on things.
I'm not going to just, bevanilla ice cream, which is
great, but maybe your vanillaplus You know, cherry sauce or
chocolate sauce or whatever itis, or are you desperately going
to be rocky road or somethingreally crazy like pistachio?
Like, what are you?

(52:22):
And so it seems fun to just useice cream flavors, but defining
yourself allows people to thenknow how you, what you stand
for.
And when you own your ownnarrative, other people then
can't assume a narrative of you.
I think that's really importantthat people Know who you are,
what you stand for, your missionand vision.
It doesn't have to be a bigthing like you help your clients

(52:43):
with, but it can be those thingsthat you know what my purpose
is.
And then I'm going to talk aboutthose things.
It makes it less exhausting foryourself.
And then your clients know,okay, she really stands for
these things.
I'm attracted to that.
I do a networking thing all thetime for clients.
And it's, as simple asintroducing yourself.
People think, oh, I'm just goingto wait for my client, potential

(53:03):
client to, to find me.
Introduce herself and then I'mgoing to introduce myself
because I'm going to riff off ofwhat she says, because then I'll
get her as a client.
Don't do that.
So many people know that, butyou're not setting yourself up
for your own success.
You're not sharing your valuesso that your potential client,
she can say, Oh wow, I knowthese things and I know these

(53:24):
other people.
I'm not the right fit client foryou at all because I don't have
the budget for you.
But I know 25 other people thatprobably would love you because
I know what you stand for.
Instead of you trying to shapeyourself to what she stands for.
So that's where it's like, Iwant people to stand in their
ground and own their ownstories, own who they are, own

(53:44):
their values so that theyattract the right fit clients.
It's all of our, psychographicsand things like that.
How do we really show people whowe are so that they're attracted
to us?
It makes a lot less work thantrying to fit into somebody
else's mold.

Kyle Soucy (53:57):
And I think the authenticity that we're trying
to maintain, it helps us dothat.
Right.
It's a good, way to just quicklycheck in.
Does this align with my values,my pillars and then feel good
about proceeding withself-promoting, you know,
whatever it is we're sharing

Lisa Bragg (54:13):
And there's so many times where it's like, squirrel,
I want to go off and do that.
And then I come back to saying,well, does this align with what
I'm trying to get out there inthe world?
Where I'm trying to get to, doesthis align with that?
So I don't have to talk aboutevery world issue or every
current affair out there.
I can stick with the things thatreally matter to me.
and I use Jen Harper in the bookwho has cheekbone beauty and

(54:35):
it's an indigenous, makeupcompany.
So she's all about indigenouspeople.
She's about sustainability and,and beauty.
So those she has others, butthose are big things for her.
And so she doesn't have to talkabout all the things, but you
know, if you tune into her.
She's probably going to talkabout those things.
She will talk about thosethings.
And so then people know what toexpect from you.

(54:57):
It's a little bit of a cheatsheet for people too.

Kyle Soucy (55:00):
Well, Lisa, I am just so grateful again for your
time today.
I wanted to end with justletting you know what the main
message that stuck with me themost, after reading your book
that I think helped me reframethe most, was, Humility can be a
disservice to you, especially incorporate America.

(55:20):
That hit home for me.
Sometimes I think that it's agood thing, you know, to be
humble.
You would think it would be, butthen reading that, I was like,
this isn't serving me.
That's right.
It's actually not helping mybusiness.
And really the entirety, allyour exercises, everything, it
made me realize that to selfpromote, you don't have to give

(55:42):
up being nice and you don't haveto give up being humble.
You can still do it.
but you also can still putyourself out there more and not
lose yourself.

Lisa Bragg (55:51):
Thank you for that gift of telling me how it
resonated and what you walkedaway with.
I think that's the one of thebiggest gifts as you put
yourself and take the risk ofwriting a book and putting a
point of view out in the worldand hearing that.
So I'm wiggling my toes.
So thank you for that.
I think it's really lettingpeople know at the end of the
day that you are of service andthat you are the best person for

(56:12):
this.
And it's of service because theyknow what you're supposed to be
doing and then they're not goingagain to that mediocre person.
I think that's why we need to.
Have all these awesome peopletalk about their successes and
let other people know and thenalso as you grow in your
success, bring other peoplealong.
So sharing that they aresuccessful and that how, you can

(56:34):
mentor, be a brand champion,cheerleader of other people.
It's really important.
So thank you for having me onand, and sharing your insights
too.
I appreciate it.

Kyle Soucy (56:43):
Absolutely, and at the end of the day, we all just
want to help people.
I mean, that's what it's about,right?

Lisa Bragg (56:48):
It's absolutely about that.

Kyle Soucy (56:49):
Yeah.
So, besides getting your book,which I suggest everybody to do,
how can people get in touch withyou, find you?

Lisa Bragg (56:57):
Yeah, find me on my website.
Lisa Bragg.
That's B R A G G dot com.
So lisabragg.
com.
And I'm going to start havingsome public workshops.
Most of my work has been withincorporate and associations.
So I'm going to start to havesome public workshops so you can
join along.
I put a lot of things out onsocial media too.
I'm always trying to, so you canfollow me on LinkedIn.
That's where I'm most activetoo.

(57:17):
And I'd welcome your connectionthere.

Kyle Soucy (57:19):
Excellent.
Well, Lisa, thank you so muchagain.

Lisa Bragg (57:22):
Thank you.

Kyle Soucy (57:23):
All right.
That wraps up this episode.
Thanks for joining me.
So do you have a topic or aquestion that you would like us
to explore on a future episodeof the UX consultants lounge?
Perhaps there's an anonymousconsulting story you want to
submit.
If so, click on the link in theshow notes to submit your story

(57:44):
or question from the podcastwebsite.
Until next time, keep thatconsultancy going.
I can't wait to have you back inthe lounge for our next episode.