Lisa Dance - UX Still Needs a Public Awareness Campaign - The UX Consultants Lounge

Episode Transcript
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Kyle Soucy (00:15):
Welcome to the UX consultants lounge.
I'm Kyle Soucy, founder ofUsable Interface an independent
UX research consultancy.
You can find out more about mywork and the services I offer at
my website, usableinterface.com.
I'll be your host here at thelounge where I'll be providing a

(00:35):
place for UX consultants togather, share stories, and learn
more from one another.
Before we dive into today'sepisode, I wanted to share a
quick personal update.
Since the last recording, myhusband Roger, who is also in
the UX industry as a UXdesigner, was laid off.

(00:59):
I know so many of you listeninghave gone through layoffs
yourselves, or you're worriedabout them.
Or you're supporting friends andcolleagues who've been affected.
It has been a really hard yearfor a lot of us in ux, whether
you are a researcher, designer,content folks, really all of us.
I just wanna acknowledge that ifyou're feeling anxious,

(01:22):
exhausted, or uncertain aboutthe future, you are not alone.
I'm right there with you.
And at the same time, I am stillhopeful that 2026 will be a
better year, that the pendulumwill swing back toward valuing
thoughtful human-centered workand the people who do it in that

(01:45):
spirit.
Today's conversation feelsespecially timely.
My guest is someone who is notonly doing great work as a UX
consultant, but is also pouringa ton of energy into advocating
for better customer experiencesand for our profession as a

whole (02:04):
Lisa Dance.
Lisa is a UX researcher andconsultant based in Richmond,
Virginia, and the founder ofService Ease.
She specializes in helpingorganizations untangle messy,
complex experiences, so regularpeople can actually get things

(02:25):
done without wanting to throwtheir laptop out the window.
She's also the author of thebook.
Today is the Perfect Day toimprove customer experiences.
It's an illustrated look at allthe ways everyday customer
experiences are failing us andwhat organizations can actually

(02:45):
do about it.
On top of that, Lisa is on a bitof a public awareness campaign
for ux.
She runs an annual UX census forthe RVA area, which is the
Richmond Virginia area.
It's a survey to understand thelocal UX community, and she's a
regular guest on a localbusiness radio show with a

(03:07):
segment called UX Happens inRVA, where she explains user
experience in plain language tobusiness leaders and highlights
local UX talent.
In my conversation with Lisa, weget into, what the UX scene in
Richmond, Virginia looks likeand how she helped nurture it,

(03:28):
uh, the origin of her companyService Ease and, her experience
moving between in-house rolesand independent consulting, kind
of back and forth how she thinksabout UX research as risk
management, including lessonsfrom Amazon's click to cancel
case.
The emotional and practicalrealities of marketing yourself

(03:50):
as a shy solopreneur, which Ithink Lisa and I can both agree
that's exactly what we both are.
And the tension betweenspecializing versus staying a
generalist as a UX consultant.
All the links that we mention,for Lisa's book, her radio show,
everything is all listed in theshow notes.

(04:12):
Alright, let's dive in.
I hope you enjoy my conversationwith Lisa Dance.
All right, welcome to the UXConsultants lounge.
Lisa, I'm so excited to have youhere.

Lisa Dance (04:26):
Thank you.
I'm excited to be here.

Kyle Soucy (04:28):
So you are joining us from Richmond, Virginia.
Is that right?

Lisa Dance (04:33):
Yes,

Kyle Soucy (04:34):
It's funny, I was thinking back on my network.
I think I only know one otherperson from Richmond.
I could be wrong.
do you happen to know a JoeSokohl?

Lisa Dance (04:44):
yes, I do know Joe, and in fact, he was the very
first person, like in UX that Imet locally.
And, he met with me and I,showed him my portfolio,
everything, and he had suchcomplimentary things that gave
me that confidence, because.
Is difficult to break into.
Right.
You know?
So having that warm welcome wasmuch appreciated.

Kyle Soucy (05:07):
Oh, that's so good to hear.
Joe is one of the best humanbeings in this industry, I think
so.
That's awesome that you guysknow each other.
I'm curious, what is the UXscene like in Richmond,
Virginia?
Is it mature?
Are there a lot of meetups ingroups or is it hard to see
other UXers?

Lisa Dance (05:28):
It's not as mature, um, as I would like it to be.
So Joe was involved in.
It used to be called Richmond UXand it's now called Richmond
Design Group.
And that's been around, I wouldsay, probably at least 15 years.
So it does have that sort ofhistorical piece to it, but we

(05:51):
aren't having as much meetupsand things as I think we would
like to have with it.
I was on the Richmond DesignBoard, for a while and I was on,
we have a Ladies That UX chapterand I was the organizer of that
for a while as well, Those arethe stronger local
organizations.
We have a RVA content strategy,that has like virtual events and

(06:14):
all, and I run, um.
So, like I was saying beforethat, it's challenging even now
to get your first role in ux,right?
And so when I was having thatexperience, and I especially
wasn't finding informationspecific to Richmond, like I saw
a need for it.
I eventually I got in theindustry and working in things

(06:36):
like that, but I saw that peoplewere still having that issue.
So I started the UX census RVAsurvey, and it's a survey of the
local, user experiencecommunity.
So it just gives informationabout like how is actually
practice here and what kind ofindustries people are in and
what kind of roles and theirsalaries and what challenges

(06:57):
they are.
So that's something that I do,every year.
In fact, it's running right now.
And people have said it's animportant resource to help
people just to understand what'sout there.
from an information standpoint,I do try to contribute that away
to the community.
And in fact, I started a radioshow segment, called UX Happens

(07:21):
in RVA because user experiencereally isn't, that, people
aren't as aware of it, right?
It's still a relatively unknownfield.
And one is somebody in businessand going out and meeting
people, and I'm saying I'm inuser experience and people don't
know about it.
So I always have said userexperience needs, a public

(07:42):
awareness campaign, right?
So this is my sort ofcontribution to it.
also just one, bring awarenessto it.
to get more business for myselfand others who are in the field.
And also just to highlight thetalent and what people are
doing, locally.
yeah, so that's another way thatsort of try to contribute to the
maturing of it, of UX locally.

Kyle Soucy (08:03):
Such important work and contributions.
I feel like as UXers, especiallypeople who have been in the
field for 10, 20, 30 years, wesometimes take for granted.
We just assume everybody knows,how important UX is and what it
even is.
and we do need to remind folksthat it does exist and there is

(08:25):
a reason why it exists.
And I love this public awarenesscampaign that you are on, and
that's how I became aware ofyou.
So the, I didn't know aboutthis, the survey, and I bet that
is a huge service to the localcommunity in Richmond.
that's wonderful.
I know for myself as aconsultant, being active in

(08:45):
local groups was reallyimportant.
so I'm in New Hampshire now.
Originally from Philadelphia andin New Hampshire there's really
not much, everything's inBoston, and Boston has great UX
groups that have been around fora long, long time, beginning
there from New Hampshire, youknow, 90 minutes traffic.
End of the day it's just nothappening.

(09:06):
So we did start groups here.
They kind of died down and we'rehoping they come back, but.
I would highly suggest forconsultants, especially if you
want to get to know your localnetwork to get involved and it
is so great to give back in someway.
so it's wonderful.
I think that you're doing allthat.
Um, I wanna hear all about theradio show and all the stuff

(09:29):
you're doing for this publicawareness campaign, but I wanna
take a step back for a momentand, talk a little bit more
about your company.
'cause I always think it'sinteresting to hear the origin
story of a consultancy.
And when we previously talked,you mentioned starting, uh,
Service Ease, your company, andcan you tell me a little bit

(09:49):
more about it and the servicesyou offer?

Lisa Dance (09:52):
Certainly.
So, I'm a user experienceresearcher, so I offer services
from user research and strategyinto interactive prototyping and
usability testing, and also dotraining to try to, help,
increase, the capacity in,in-house for just understanding,

(10:12):
when user experience research isand how roles within the
organization actually impactcustomer experiences, typically
my clients are, say small tomid-size companies.
I do, have a little bit of aniche I'm working with when
around financial services andsmaller banks and credit credit

(10:33):
unions.
But I do, you know, walk acrossin, industries, you know, that
some complexity, right?
So I've worked in financialservices insurance, pre being in
ux, I worked in the mortgageindustry.
I worked for pensions and stufflike that.
So I've always worked inindustries that had some
complexity to it, and I lovethat, right?
Because, um, those are thethings that we need to do on the

(10:56):
everyday life.
So I'm, Interested in makingthose things easier for,
customers?
Yes.

Kyle Soucy (11:03):
And you started it, back in 2011.
Is that right?

Lisa Dance (11:07):
Yes.
In 2011 and the thing about it,and I always say'cause people
say, oh, well that's a longtime.
But, you know, that was megetting in the industry trying
to, get experience.
And the goal always was to getinto a full-time role.
Right.
Um, so I was just doing reallysmall projects and just trying

(11:28):
to, get my feet, wet in theindustry.
and so from there I morphed intoworking full-time and, services,
got smaller and I may be justdoing speaking and writing
projects.
To back working for myself, uh,to back in house and back
working for myself the last,three or four years.

Kyle Soucy (11:52):
it's interesting to hear about that because
everybody has a differentconsulting journey.
some people go out and stay out,some people go back and forth,
and I think it's good to hearthat you can go back.
You don't have to worry so muchif there is something that comes
across, you know, an opportunitythat you really wanna jump on,

(12:13):
that it's okay and that yourconsultancy can still be there
for you if you should decide toreturn later.

Lisa Dance (12:20):
Right.
Absolutely.
And so much of it is you have toThink about the projects.
that are.
So much depending on you beingthere in the time and the place,
or are there things that you cando that are more asynchronous,
right?
And, how you can do thosethings, so that if you're in
house, that you're still having,one your name out there, income

(12:42):
coming in.
And unfortunately the way theworld works now, I've had three
layoffs.
Um, you know, layoffs are real.
you have something to go backto.
Right?
And also yeah,

Kyle Soucy (12:55):
yeah, these layoffs, we're definitely gonna talk
about those.
I wanna get your, your thoughtson what's going on in the
industry, but, talking a littlebit about this, you could go
back in-house, but keeping thatdoor open in case there is a
layoff or something, isimportant.
And, I've always, I've beenasked,'cause I've been on my own
now for over 20 years and, someof the people are like, would

(13:17):
you ever go back?
And I never say never.
who knows?
especially now, the economy'stough.
But, there are pros and cons toboth.
I definitely have my list ofpros and cons and for me, there
may be some things that I couldget with an in-house job, but I
really love the flexibility,with the consulting.
And I'm curious from yourstandpoint, you know, having so

(13:39):
much experience going back andforth, what's your feeling?
Do you prefer one over the otheror does it vary?

Lisa Dance (13:46):
I think it varies.
in-house you do have those, uh,the financial benefits and, the
other benefits, healthcare and,health insurance and all those,
and 401k and all.
And those are really goodincentives why people, go
in-house, but also in-house youget to see projects from the
start to the finish and then, goon from theirs and, the

(14:08):
iterations of it.
And so I do like that piece ofit because, you know, sometimes
as a consultant you don't seeall of the implementation and
how things worked out.
So I do, love that.
I do love being involved inprojects that have a big impact,
with it.
And so that's.
Those are great pieces.

(14:30):
but then, with being on yourown, you are setting your
journey, and you can go and likethe ways and things that
interest you and really, pull onyour strengths, but also
challenge yourself, with it.
And, you don't have to askpermission.
You can just, do things that youknow, which you feel, are right

(14:50):
and you get to, pivot in,different ways.
that's interesting.
And then you get to be workingwith different businesses and
you get to learn about thingsthat you didn't necessarily know
versus if you're just in oneindustry, you're, doing the
same, around the same types ofthings with it.
It's definitely I think to both.
Absolutely.

Kyle Soucy (15:10):
I love that variety.
You know that it's hard to beatthat.
yeah.
It's, that's a good pro.
Now you said that, you know, UXneeds a public awareness
campaign, to help spread theword of how bad customer
experience issues have gottenand to lead the charge of this
campaign.
You've written a book, like youmentioned, called Today is the

(15:32):
Perfect Day to Improve customerExperiences, and you have, you
mentioned your regular guestappearance on the public radio
show called UX Happens in RVA.
And I'd like to talk more abouteach of these and all the work
you're doing to bring awarenessto the fact that customer
experiences do not have to suck.

(15:52):
So first, tell us more aboutyour book and why you decided to
write it.

Lisa Dance (15:57):
Yes.
So it started because, I guessnow would be about eight or nine
years ago, I noticed in mypersonal life that I wasn't
getting things accomplished.
I'd have my to-do list, andsomehow I could never get it
finished, even though I wastrying really diligently to do
it right.

(16:17):
And then I started to notice itwasn't me.
I was trying to do it, butanytime I was interacting with a
company or organization andtrying to get something done, I
couldn't.
It either would be.
I couldn't find the information.
There's something wrong with thewebsite.
I was getting bad information.
It was always something, somedelay that was happening and it

(16:42):
wasn't in my control.
And it was so frustratingbecause these would be most
times relatively simple thingsthat just needed to get
accomplished.
And it didn't seem like it wasmaking any sense.
And as I just talked to, youknow, started with family and
friends and they were having thesame types of issues right?
And being like really frustratedand it would get to be quality

(17:06):
of life things because you'd beso frustrated you would be
taking so much of your time,trying to get these things
resolved'cause you'd be calling,waiting on hold and different
things like that.
And it was just absolutelyfrustrating.
And then I saw, a tweet onTwitter.
The person said something like,they wanted to write a book
called Nothing Works.

(17:28):
And they talked about like cellphones and, phone menu options
and health insurance.
And they threw in like dietsand, but it was all of these
things that as a consumer acrossall different types of
industries.
And I was just like, ding, ding,ding, ding, ding.
When she said that, nothingworks.
Like she encapsulated what I hadbeen seeing and as I've been

(17:50):
talking to people and collectingthese stories.
And so I started just writingabout that.
But it was also, the issues weresort of nuanced, right?
And so I would write about itand I did a couple of
presentations on it, but I feltlike.
It needed to be like, I wasn'tnecessarily saying a book, but

(18:12):
it was like, there was so muchnuances and levels to it that it
needed to be more than just onearticle, one presentation.
And then I was lucky enough tomeet a illustrator.
And as I was, we were talkingabout customer experiences and
he got it so quickly, like thenuance of it.

(18:34):
And I said, that's no way I canafford him.
But I went on and said, Hey, I,have these ideas.
And initially it started out himjust, doing illustrations of
some of these stories I hadcollected about like real life
customer experiences going bad.
And he could take this storythat was like eight pages of oh

(18:54):
my gosh, just ridiculousness ofhow this, this customer
experience went wrong and hecould, you.
Capture it, in one page andbring a little humor, but
humanity and like the empathy,and you could feel all the
emotions and the context of whatit was going on.

(19:15):
And as we started workingtogether, I said, I was going to
use these illustrations in mybusiness, but I think I'd need
to put these all together as abook and then I could actually
get into the layers of this, thestory.
So it was not only that customerexperience were getting worse,
increasingly worse, it was alsothat at the same time, companies

(19:39):
were going increasingly tohaving a technology first
approach to customer service andsupport.
So not only were you having.
Customer experience is gettingworse and you are having such a
difficult time trying to get theissue resolved, then they're
also, you're dealing withtechnology that wasn't effective

(20:00):
at helping you get the solutionyou needed.
So then you were doubly likebeing stressed and spending
time, money and being incrediblyfrustrated about these
experiences.
And that's how the book cameabout of one illustrating these
types of, of experiences acrossand across different industries.

(20:24):
And that was the big piece Iwanted to.
Point out is that no industry'simmune to it.
It, you're having these issuesacross different industries and
that's why that nothing works,tweaked, just hit home so much

Kyle Soucy (20:39):
you would think we would have massive job security
because of how hard everythingis to use and continues to be.
I, it really, it frustrates meso much because being in this
industry for so long, you wouldthink by now we would have just.
More impact on being, usercentered in product design.

(21:02):
But it feels like you mentioned,this tech first approach and now
everyone's taking an ai, firstapproach, and we're seeing the
fallout from that.
it's a bit frustrating, but youwriting this book to try to
spread this word, how do youfeel it's being received?
How do you feel, it's going?
Is it setting out to achievewhat you hoped it would?

Lisa Dance (21:25):
Uh, you know, it's making a little, like a little
rip ripple in, in the ocean ofit.
I didn't have huge ambitions forit.
I just felt like it wassomething that needed to get out
in the world, and if I could getit into the hands of some people
that were decision makers, likeit could have impacts, you know,

(21:48):
at least in their organizationand things like that.
I feel like it, it has had someimpact.
It's not a bestseller by anymeans, with it.
But it, it kinda stands the testof time because these stories
are still continuing.
I feel, it's given me a platformto continue to talk about it and
spread the word.

(22:08):
And I think that's made iteffective.
Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (22:11):
Yeah, it in that way it is absolutely invaluable.
And I have it here, so I'mflipping through and I, when I
was looking at it this weekend,the illustrations are fantastic
and I do think, it's true whatthey say, a picture's worth a
thousand words, and if you canboil it down and whatever medium
is necessary to get someone tojust have that light bulb moment

(22:33):
where they get it, they get whywe're needed, they get our
value.
Then it's a home run.
So I think that's wonderful andvery well done.
I love that.
That's what sparked it all foryou.
this, nothing works.
And then meeting theillustrator, it was just all
kind of fell into place and itwas meant to be.
So I think it's amazing that youput it out there.

(22:56):
And I was wondering, for anybodywho is considering, taking on
something like this, it's a hugething to take on writing a book,
self-publishing, putting it outthere, promoting it.
Any words of advice?
I imagine you know, a lot morenow than you did when you first
started this.
Anything you would dodifferently or,

Lisa Dance (23:17):
One thing I would do differently is that I probably
would've given myself more time,but I didn't know what I didn't
know.
And one of the things was Iwasn't sure that I could write a
book in the sense of, I've hadpeople tell me that I'm a good
writer and people have enjoyedarticles and things that I've

(23:39):
written.
but it does, it can take a lotoutta me.
Sometimes it, it flows verywell, and sometimes it's like,
pulling everything out of me,right?
And so I didn't know if I couldget it over the finish line.
So that's why I didn't like, tryto make a pitch and try to get a
publisher because I didn't feellike one, like maybe even doing

(24:03):
the whole pitch might've takeneverything out of me.
So I said, okay, I'm going to dothis self-publish.
And initially it was going tojust be a ebook, It's not even
the biggest commitment.
And I said, so if I do it thatway, if it's too much for me,
then I can just stop.
I'll still have these lovelyillustrations.

(24:23):
And I do wanna plug, his name isAntonio Meza.
and his company is Ann Tunes andhe's outta Paris.
Wonderful illustrator.
I would still have thesewonderful illustrations that I
could use, in my business andthings like that.
And okay.
So that dialed down the pressureif I, could do it like that.
And then.

(24:44):
What I did, is I did a designand prototyping approach to it,
because what I did was I brokedown each of the stories, and I
took a typing paper and foldedit like into four and folded in
half, like a little booklet.
And then I did a, like a mockupof that chapter with that story,

(25:07):
and I could like visually seehow it looked, but also it just
helped me keep my thinkingaround just one chapter.
And that helped me that was abig milestone that I got over
in, Creating what would be ineach chapter.
And so that was just reallyhelpful for me.

(25:27):
And once I got that, I said,okay, I have chapter three done.
Okay, I have this other story.
And then I already had okay,this is how the layout is going
to be.
And then I would work on whatthe actual words would be for
that chapter.
And so that was just reallyhelpful, with it.
And so I published the ebook,back in January, 2024.

(25:51):
and that, that went relativelyokay.
Yeah, you publish in an ebook,is one thing.
But then I, as I.
Got that out there.
Especially'cause I had thesewonderful illustrations of felt
like, oh, somebody needs it intheir hand.
And so I said, okay, I'm gonnado this in a paperback.
Well, that's a lot of othercomplications to that because

(26:15):
there's sort of a certain way ithas to be formatted for a book
publisher for evenself-publishing.
And that was a learning curve ofgetting, someone to do that
setup.
and then a big piece of it,which, I didn't think about at
the time is that when I did the,uh, ebook, I didn't include an

(26:36):
index.
And so when I went to do thepaperback, it's oh, you need an
index.
And so there are people whospecialize in do doing book
indexes.
But.
They have to know the materialto be able to index it, so I
wind up indexing it myself.
and especially'cause my book,they, there were concepts that

(26:59):
layered throughout the book andso you kinda really had to
understand the material to beable to do it.
I'm not to say I, I did it well,but I did do the index with it.
that was something that poppedup like almost at the end and
thinking, oh, I have to getthis, done.
So one thing I would give adviceto people is there are people

(27:19):
who specialize in differentparts of book publishing that
can be helpful.
I definitely knew I neededsomebody for proofreading and
things like that because I.
I.
self-edit myself so much and goback and correct that.
I just automatically have typos,because I've cut this sentence
off, moved this here and all.

(27:39):
So I definitely needed that.
There's also like adevelopmental editor, so If you
don't have your story, or yourideas and concepts, completely
done, that can help you developit into, a solid, piece.
So it's people like that.
It's people who, you know, thereare actually book designers who

(28:00):
do the layout and things likethat, and it makes a difference.
people who do indexing, peoplewho do just, like book
marketing, right?
And I did do a couple of courseswith, a woman who's a book
marketer to help you with thatpiece.
So there are definitely people,who can help you if you want to

(28:21):
do a self-publish.
Now, of course if you are, ifyou go to a publisher, then They
have those things, but whetheryou're self-published or for
publisher, you have to do a lotof marketing of your own books.
So yeah, be prepared to, to dothat piece.
Yes.

Kyle Soucy (28:39):
Yeah, that's the piece I think that scares me the
most.
I, it's getting it out thereafter you put all the work into
it, you wanna make sure peopleknow what's out there.
but I love the approach that youtook of just biting off as much
as you could chew and seeing howthat goes and not being
overwhelmed at taking onsomething, so big and I love how

(29:02):
you paper prototyped your book,too.
That's a great approach.
Now, I'd love to talk a littlebit too about the radio show you
mentioned, uh, UX happens in RVAand for anybody who's not aware,
in the local area or perhaps,listening in from another
country, RVA stands forRichmond, Virginia.

(29:23):
how locals refer to it, is thatright?

Lisa Dance (29:25):
Yeah.
The, the surround Richmond andthe surrounding area.
RVA.
Yes.

Kyle Soucy (29:30):
Yeah, so tell us more about that.

Lisa Dance (29:33):
Yeah.
in publishing my book, I wastrying to get promotion and I
was, able to get on, there's alocal business radio show called
On the Mic with Mike, the MikeKing, biz Radio show.
And so I was able to go on hisshow twice.
And as I was thinking about waysto try to promote more about.

(29:58):
User experience locally.
I thought, hey, he has a builtin audience of business people,
nonprofits, any of the sort ofbig news, business news in the
area, or community news.
people come on his show.
And I reached out and said,would there be an opportunity,
to, to share more about, whatuser experiences and plain

(30:23):
language, for the audience ofbusiness people and nonprofits,
so that they can understand howit could benefit them.
And then also I could bring onand interview people locally who
are doing things around userexperience so they can also see,
businesses big and small who areimplementing user experience,

(30:46):
with it.
And, we talked and, outlined theopportunity so for me to do
that.
It started in July and it'stwice a month.
It's been a good way just tobring awareness to user
experience.
And a couple of things in thenews have been good fodder for
actually talking about on theshow.

Kyle Soucy (31:06):
I absolutely love that you pitched this idea of
having you on as a guest to thisbusiness radio show, and.
For me, you didn't just seize anopportunity.
You created one for yourself.
And that, that takes guts.
And I think it's the kind ofcreativity and moxie that you

(31:27):
need in order to survive as anindependent consultant,
especially during these times.
What advice do you have for anyconsultants out there that get
nervous when it comes toself-promotion or finding and
creating these kinds ofopportunities?

Lisa Dance (31:46):
yeah.
I, it's definitely challenging,but I think I'll.
Always think about how can Ipresent things in a win-win for
people, right?
So it's not just oh, hey, Iwanna be on your radio show.
It's, Hey, I think that this isan area where people aren't
aware of it and there's a lot ofbenefits.
And then if I can bring onguests that, have an impact

(32:08):
locally, that's also, goodawareness and things like that.
Like being able to sell it, notjust benefiting me, but
benefiting you.
I think that's how I've beenable to be successful in
pitching things.
it's just making sure I'moutlining what the benefits are
to, other people.
Two sort of pieces of advice.

(32:30):
I've heard over the years.
So one was, this was around jobhunting, but I think it's still
hits, is that, you can volunteerand do something that people
won't pay you for.
Right.
So that's sort of like, if youare going to, you know, you
might not get someone to come toyou and say you wanna do a radio
show, but you could, pitch andcreate this for yourself, right.

(32:52):
And so there's something to justgoing and trying to do something
that you think that will make adifference and, and pitch it
and, and see,

Kyle Soucy (33:03):
And making sure that angle of it will actually
benefit them.
Yeah.
And obviously it must be theykeep having you on, so it must
be going well, right?

Lisa Dance (33:13):
Yes.
And in fact, the last show, Mikeand I, we had talked previously,
he had mentioned when click tocancel that rule was blocked.
And so he said, that's somethingI want to talk to you about when
you come on.
So we had talked about it thenthat was back in July.
then Amazon settlement, twoweeks ago, when they settled

(33:35):
with FTC for$2.5 billion, thathad something in a sense to do
with click to cancel becausealthough that rule has been
blocked, some of that languagein that settlement sounded a
whole lot like click to cancelto me because it was like
customers have to be able tohave a easy, not time consuming

(33:56):
way to, cancel theirsubscriptions.
And they must be able to cancelin the same manner in which they
signed up.
That's, that was click to cancellanguage.
Right?
And so it was really funny forhim and I to be able to come
back and have that sameconversation.
you have the conversation onthat.
And then, I was able to talkabout how the first witness in

(34:22):
that trial between, Amazon andFTC was a user experience
researcher.
So that shows you how importantuser experience research was to
this trial that, ended with a2.5 billion, billion dollar
settlement,

Kyle Soucy (34:39):
And how lucky I think, this radio show host was
to have you at Arms reach, oh,I've got the perfect person.
To talk to about this.
It was just great that youpositioned yourself in that way,
and I'm sure he loved, beingable to talk to you about that.
And just to take a step back foranybody that just might not be
aware, of this click to cancel,issue with Amazon in 2023, the

(35:03):
US Federal Trade Commission,FTC, accused Amazon of enrolling
tens of millions of customers inAmazon Prime subscriptions
without their knowledge, andthen made it difficult for them
to cancel, which Lisa mentioned,and then the fines 2.5 billion,
which is amazing.
that's huge.
and Lisa, how do you think caseslike this will impact the UX

(35:27):
industry and UX consulting?

Lisa Dance (35:30):
Well, I hope.
If they're doing like I'm doing,which is I had been already
working on talking about userexperience research as risk
management.
and so really using that casestudy as, risk management, like
if Amazon had actually listenedto, their user research team as

(35:50):
they brought these issues up,then they could have saved, that
money.
So I'm positioning it as lookingat taking this case and looking
at it is risk management.
And in fact, I have a webinar onthe 29th that I am talking about
user experience research as, asrisk management.
So I'm really trying to put itout there and also to make sure

(36:13):
people understand that even ifyou don't have a subscription
and order renew and all of that.
There are lessons that can belearned from that case that
people should be aware of inbusiness.
Yes.

Kyle Soucy (36:27):
Absolutely.
I love the framing of UXR asrisk management.
this is just.
Top of mind, I think for all ofus in the industry.
We talked about layoffs.
earlier this month, PavelSamsonov wrote a great
newsletter called UX So Bad thatit's Illegal, and he mentioned

(36:49):
Amazon's click to cancel and hejust was reflecting on how big
tech is just divesting fromuser-centered design and getting
into hot water with the lawbecause of it.
he also stated in hisnewsletter, the trend from what
he called corporate overlords isvery clear that users should

(37:10):
just be thankful for what theyget and any problems are their
own fault and nothing to do withus.
And he was regaling against,tech giants like Google, who are
too big to care anymore abouttheir users and even their
business customers.
which is proof in them, sadly,laying off every single

(37:31):
researcher under staff level inits cloud division this month.
And, Lisa, I, what do you thinkabout this trend of big
corporations leaning away fromcustomer satisfaction and all
the layoffs we're seeing as aresult within UX research and
design?
Are you nervous at all about thefuture of UX research?

Lisa Dance (37:54):
Well, so two points.
So one thing I have said this,and this may like first time on
air, but I have said this for acouple of years now, that, these
large tech companies like userexperience really needs a
divorce from them, or at least alegal separation because they
have not been good stewards ofuser experience.

(38:15):
And have not been for quite sometime.
they're, they're just putting,most cases profits above, the
user who's using their time andtheir money to use their
products.
So they're, and I view customerrelationships and transactions
as value exchanges and bothparties supposed to get

(38:36):
something of value that theywant from the other.
And these companies, and most,in a lot of cases, have just
broken that, that valueexchange.
And somehow they're expectingcustomers to spend their money
and their time for gettingthings that they don't want.
And that's not, that's just notthe way it should be.

(38:56):
'cause you should have controlover your time and your money.
So, a divorce or a legalseparation is needed, right?
Because they're just not goodstewards of it.
And then we have, you know,capitalism as its practice now,
does not, put that emphasis on,customer value or in employees
and environment and It's allabout shareholders, right?

(39:19):
And a lot of companies, that'sexactly what they're doing.
so we are at a time now from apolitical and a business, a
economic thing that's really achallenge of who's going to win
this, right?
Just as consumers, themselvesand who's really gonna win this.
and just thinking politicallyfor a minute, we have the EU and

(39:42):
different other governments whoare, passing laws around AI and
customer protections.
And so in the US we may not havethose things on a federal level,
but we have states who aretrying to do that work too.
So we have to get the protectionwhere we can far as consumers,
as a industry.
I.

(40:04):
I feel like maybe thoseopportunities may drop in those
types of companies, but thenthere are a lot of other,
companies smaller than them whoat least don't have the monopoly
that they can just disregardcustomers.
They also are delivering,products and services that are
so much more tangible that theyhave to do it better.

(40:28):
So they need this additional,expertise that people in user
experience can bring.
So I've never wanted to workfrom those big tech companies
when I've been approached.
I've said, your values justdon't align with mine.
so I'm always looking at those,what some people would say
non-sexy industries, but thosetypes of things that people just

(40:48):
need in their everyday life togo on.
And, they have the need for userexperience and customer
experience, within that.
So I think people may have tostart who maybe looked at those
places as places to work.
May have to start looking in,other industries for that.
Now, of course, because thesemay not be as larger of

(41:11):
companies, there may be lessjobs and it has to maybe be more
competitive.
but unless we're just going togo to a system that every
customer is faced with, this isjust what you get and spend your
money anyway.
Which I don't see thathappening.
I think that there's a need forit, and that's part of the
education piece of it too,right?

(41:33):
making sure that there's moreawareness of, Hey, this is how
we could help you

Kyle Soucy (41:37):
it's interesting like, Pavel said too big to
care.
But I don't think that meansthat they are too big to fail.
And I think that this pendulumis gonna swing, it's gonna be
painful for a bit, but I cannotimagine that Google, Amazon,
Meta all these companies thatare just doing these huge
layoffs, in UX research anddesign are not going to feel the

(42:01):
pain of that, pretty soon.
and I think every company atsome point is primed for
disruption.
They might seem untouchable, butanything can come along and
unseat you.
and I think that, that willhappen.
so I, I remain optimistic aboutour future as an industry, but I

(42:23):
do think it's going to bepainful for a bit, especially
now with AI and everythingeverybody's seeming to want to
cut corners now and get thingsout there quicker and quicker
and quicker.
But again, I think that pain ofthat will be felt eventually.

Lisa Dance (42:42):
Absolutely.
And I think with ai, so I haveso many conflicting, thoughts on
it.
So fundamentally I never can getaway from the fact that it's
based on historical data withall its biases and accuracies
and, lack of, representation inall of that.
So that's just always everpresent in my mind, even when,

(43:03):
they're saying AI is gonna savethe world.
but also one of the things thatI keep thinking about is,
especially when they'rechampioning now the AI agents so
much is do we need AI agents?
Because we have made things sohorrible that you need

Kyle Soucy (43:20):
Yeah.

Lisa Dance (43:21):
something else to actually do all of the, The
unpaid customer labor, which isa term for my book, the Due
Office, unpaid customer labor,because you've made a simple
transaction into somethingthat's just horrendously
complicated.
also, with AI is I know as aresearcher, companies have not

(43:43):
put in as much time as theyneeded to, into really
understanding what the problemsare and what customer's needs
and wants are.
So I'm not feeling like I can ahundred percent trust that you
have somehow created an AI agentor AI to solve something that
you haven't put enough time intounderstanding in the first

(44:07):
place.
yeah, so it can, it can do somethings, but really understanding
these complex problems andespecially if we created more
complex systems.
Um, I'm not sure about that.

Kyle Soucy (44:20):
Okay.
And I.
I like your point about, justamplifying the biases.
I mean, that's huge, but thefact that you wanna cut corners,
and cut out the research aspect,it's just gonna be a compiled
issue with all this.

Lisa Dance (44:36):
Definitely.

Kyle Soucy (44:37):
So let's talk a little bit now about, business
development.
when we talked previously, youmentioned that something you
wish you had known beforestarting your business is just
how much more marketing andbusiness development are
required and how much time itactually takes.
I know I can relate to thisfeeling and I'm sure every

(45:01):
consultant listening can aswell.
Can you tell us more about whatchallenges you experience when
it comes to marketing andbusiness development?

Lisa Dance (45:10):
Yeah, definitely.
So especially as a solopreneur,you are sort of, your best,
marketing and having to be outthere at events and networking
and trying to get your name outand, I'm a fairly shy,
restrained person and so havingto do that can be.

(45:33):
A lot.
and then there's only one ofyou, so you also have to figure
out what's the best use of yourtime for that.
so that's big.
but then also, I do a lot ofcontent marketing and so whether
it's writing my newsletter doingsocial media posts, speaking or

(45:54):
presentations, even a book, allof that sort of takes time and
those can be also a slower,awareness and to getting, new
business and things like that.
So you have to put a lot ofeffort out into that.
So I think before starting abusiness, what I would have done
is really tried to figure outbetter.

(46:15):
Either should I have a niche andhow to get to it, or, really
where was gonna be my big sourceof clients.
And so I would know where toput, the most energy into it.
'cause sometimes you go tonetworking events and you think,
this is not gonna be too much,but then you'll talk to somebody
and it's oh yeah, this, thismight lead to something.

(46:38):
But then you go to one and youthink, oh yeah, this is, the
people I need to talk to.
And, nobody's very friendly.
And so you aren't, making, anystrides with it.
yeah, definitely having a planon what your business
development, your sales funneland cycle is like, and having
that develop.
I think that's huge.
anyone before they go out ontheir own, work on that piece of

(47:01):
it and have a few people in thepipeline so that, you aren't
feeling like you have to just,keep on doing, having to
scramble for those types ofthings.

Kyle Soucy (47:10):
Yeah, I can echo the exhaustion of networking.
it's hard.
I, it doesn't come naturally tome, either, that's for sure.
but it's one of those things wehave to do, right?
We have to do it.
You mentioned, before when wetalked something that really
struck me.
you said it's not thecompetition of someone else,

(47:32):
it's the competition of notdoing anything inaction.
And that just stayed with me.
I really like that.
Can you tell me more, about thisfeeling of compulsion that you
have to just keep doing stuff tostay relevant or.

Lisa Dance (47:49):
Yes.
the biggest competition I feellike is not me between somebody
else doing user experienceresearch or design.
It's, a organization not doinganything, Not even recognizing
it's an issue or not recognizingthat anyone can help them with
it.
or thinking it's a marketing orsales problem and just doing

(48:11):
marketing, sales things with it.
it feels like that comp, thebiggest competition is.
Them just not doing anything.
and so that's where that bigawareness piece has to keep
coming in, giving examples ofhow it's made a difference,
talking about clients that I'veworked with and trying to
showcase, how it can make adifference and giving some

(48:34):
variety to it so that, they canunderstand it can apply to my
business too.
So always like I have a creditunion client and I'm working on
trying to get another clientready, but I've also worked for,
with an arts organization and Ialso worked with a startup
printing platform, right?
And so that, people can seethemselves within your story.
So yeah, that's a big piece ofit is just keeping that

(48:57):
awareness going.
If you are having these type ofissues, there are resources that
can help you, really understandwhat the root cause of it is in
helping you to resolve it.

Kyle Soucy (49:12):
Yeah, as you put it, when we talked before, just keep
beating that drum.
And,

Lisa Dance (49:18):
Right?

Kyle Soucy (49:19):
and it's so true.
And what you just said abouthow, the prospective clients,
they need to see themselves inyour work and your, the problems
you're talking about and belike, ah, yes, that's the
problem I'm having.
She can help me with that.
So key and I think oftentimes wehold back from sharing all the

(49:40):
things we're working on.
Probably we're just sick ofhearing ourselves talk about it,
but it is so important becausewe never know what's going to
strike someone else.
and we do work on such, such avariety of things and it's
important to keep sharing.

Lisa Dance (49:56):
Yes, and I have, so two things with that.
One was just making sure thatwhen I'm talking about user
experience research, not.
Just letting people think it'sabout a website or an app,
right?
Like that's all I can do in thescope of my work, with that.
And I have felt like I wasboxing myself in with that

(50:19):
because I would start with thatbecause I felt oh, that's
accessible.
People can understand that.
But then that also became likelimiting to, and so trying to
make sure that I'm sharingstories beyond just, something
on an interface.
and trying to communicate thatoftentimes, okay, even if

(50:40):
something is on an interface,you find the issues are deeper
in the organization, whetherit's around the people, the
processes, or the systems.
That, that's how this issue gotout on the interface itself.
so being able to communicatethat I think is really
important.
and when you were saying about,having to say the same

(51:02):
messaging, one of the thingsthat was really a challenge for
me with writing a book is thatin the marketing, I felt like
that's all I was talking about.
And so the, so that would be apiece I have to say too, is
like, when you're, marketing abook, you're gonna feel like,
oh, I am sick of, I'm sick ofhearing myself say about this.

(51:23):
but at least in social media andthings like that, the same
people are not seeing you saythis thing over and over again.
yeah, so repeat messagingoftentimes is really what you
need to do.

Kyle Soucy (51:36):
And it's so hard.
It's so hard.
'cause you don't wanna, you'recringing yourself, But you do
wanna get that message outthere.
That's the whole point of it.
Yeah.
And you mentioned, askingyourself, should I specialize or
not?
And wondering about that, youhave, such experience, you
mentioned in finance, insurance,what is holding you back, you

(51:58):
think from specializing?

Lisa Dance (52:00):
just making sure that there would be enough
business that's accessible to meif I niched down.
I really like.
Credit unions.
I like one that financialservices aspect, but I also like
that they're nonprofits and theyreally are tuned into their
local community and their needs,and they can be really creative
about what type of solutionsthat they offer.

(52:20):
So I do love that intersectionand space of it.
but just making sure that's, aviable area that there would be,
enough funding within them to,fund projects and things like
that.
that's something I'm exploringmore with research, but at the
same time I'm open to, otherindustries because I do like

(52:43):
learning and helping.
but I definitely, I like workingwith purposes driven businesses,
I, I don't wanna partner withanyone that's going to be in the
news the next day for doingsomething wrong, you know?
So, yeah, definitely.

Kyle Soucy (53:00):
I have a lot, To say about specializing.
I've not done it all theseyears.
I've talked about it before onthe show with different guests
that fear differently holds meback.
And I can see value for surethat if you do have a specific
focus and that's, you're goingto be top of mind if somebody
else has that specific issue, Ican see value in that.

(53:23):
But I, I do love the variety ofthe work, the different
industries we work on.
I think in a way, the way thatI've specialized is in focusing
mainly on just qualitativeresearch versus quantitative or
something in, in that way,versus a specific industry.
but I still think about it.
I still wonder if I am not doingthings right, if I would have an

(53:48):
easier time getting work.
But it's a scary thing toexperiment with.
But, I totally can feel you withit when it comes to that
hesitation there.

Lisa Dance (53:59):
and as we were talking, I'm thinking, maybe
it's more using like t-shaped,like they, they talked about ts
shape and user experience, likebeing deep in one skill set, but
then you branch off there.
So maybe that's what the nichepart too, is that you might have
some, a deepness to your T in acertain area, but you also, have
some breadth across, other areas

Kyle Soucy (54:21):
Yeah.

Lisa Dance (54:21):
it.
And so maybe that's, I think I'mgonna commit to being the T in
that,

Kyle Soucy (54:26):
I like that.
Yeah.
I'm always surprised whenclients, they're like, oh, you
do that too.
It's yeah, of course.
Like I, it's the same methodsapplied to, something else.
it's, they'll hear that you'veworked on consumer electronics
or healthcare, but it's oh, youcan do financial too.
It's oh yeah, of course I can,I'm, maybe I don't have that

(54:47):
specific case study yet, butyeah, I'm very confident that, I
could speak to your users andunderstand their problems.
It's just, it's really funny.
Going back to what you saidbefore, they really need to be
able to see themselves in theexperience that you have that
you're sharing.

Lisa Dance (55:03):
definitely.
And like you're saying, likehealthcare, if you've worked in
a regulated, a heavily regulatedindustry, that's the expertise
that people who are not in theseindustries don't have.
Because if you've been in acompany like some of them we're
talking about, who, move fastand break things, you can't move
fast and break things inhealthcare or financial services

(55:26):
unless you're gonna really harmsomeone.
And their regulations and all,For, to prevent those types of
things.
And so sometimes people maybedon't understand, why did they
need someone who has thatindustry experience?
But that's because they knowthere are some things that there
are rules to certain things.
you still can be open and beinnovative, but you also know

(55:47):
that there are some guardrailsand they're there for a reason.
Yes,

Kyle Soucy (55:52):
what I'd love to do now is just to wrap up with a
few rapid fire questions here.
what do you think makes aconsultant good?

Lisa Dance (56:03):
I think it's flexibility and a deep interest
and understanding.
your business, your needs, yourcustomers, right?
Like just a deep appreciationthat they need to understand it
and try their best to do that.
I think that makes a goodconsultant and flexibility
because every organization isdifferent and so you have to be

(56:25):
able to flow.
'cause some have a lot ofinformation, some have no
information.
It, it can be really easy orreally challenging or, lots in
between.
So I think that flexibility isimportant as well.

Kyle Soucy (56:38):
Love that.
Yep.
If you had to, describe UXconsulting in one word, how
would you describe it?

Lisa Dance (56:47):
investigative,

Kyle Soucy (56:48):
Hmm.

Lisa Dance (56:49):
We have to, gather the evidence, gather the data,
interview people, I'm saying wehave to examine and assess, and,
get meaning out of things.
So I think it's thatinvestigative piece to it, Yes.

Kyle Soucy (57:03):
it's so true.
We're like detectives.
when we started, especially whenwe start new engagements.
I can think back to, aninterview I did with, Tamara
Alan, and she said that's,whenever she's brought on for
one thing, all she does is acouple of stakeholder
interviews.
And then all of a sudden sherealized it's really this issue.
There's a whole different thinggoing on here that we have to

(57:24):
fix.
You don't need personas, youneed this, or something like
that.
so yeah, I can see that.

Lisa Dance (57:31):
absolutely.
'cause it's, it is often theybring you in, thinking it's, the
prescription is for this and,and it's no, actually the wound
is here and this would be abetter prescription.
This is going to help, get youfarther in the short term.
And then we're looking at, whatlong term, what we should be
doing.
absolutely.
And you have to be willing totell them that.

(57:52):
And sometimes people, they stillwant you to do what they, think
that they wanna do.
And then oftentimes they're opento, like you said, the scope of
what you can do and how that canhelp.
Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (58:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lisa, this has been awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
I really appreciate you justsharing your journey, all of
your wisdom here.
And I'm gonna include links toyour book, the webinar, your
radio show, guest appearances,all that will be included.
So thank you again for yourtime.

Lisa Dance (58:23):
thank you.
I enjoyed talking.
it's always interesting to talkwith someone who's, also a
consultant in this area,

Kyle Soucy (58:29):
Absolutely.
I always learn something newfrom other consultants, so
awesome to talk.

Lisa Dance (58:34):
Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (58:35):
Take care.
All right.
That wraps up this episode.
Thanks for joining me.
So do you have a topic or aquestion that you would like us
to explore on a future episodeof the UX consultants lounge?
Perhaps there's an anonymousconsulting story you want to
submit.
If so, click on the link in theshow notes to submit your story

(58:57):
or question from the podcastwebsite.
Until next time, keep thatconsultancy going.
I can't wait to have you back inthe lounge for our next episode.

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Lisa Dance - UX Still Needs a Public Awareness Campaign

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Lisa Dance - UX Still Needs a Public Awareness Campaign