Steve Portigal and Justin Dauer - Solo, Together: How Two Independent UX Consultants are Collaborating - The UX Consultants Lounge

Episode Transcript
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Kyle Soucy (00:15):
Welcome to the UX consultants lounge.
I'm Kyle Soucy, founder ofUsable Interface an independent
UX research consultancy.
You can find out more about mywork and the services I offer at
my website, usableinterface.com.
I'll be your host here at thelounge where I'll be providing a

(00:35):
place for UX consultants togather, share stories, and learn
more from one another.
My guests today are two peopleyou may already know each in
very different, butcomplimentary ways.
Steve Portigal has been runninghis own consultancy, Portigal
Consulting, for more than twodecades.

(00:57):
He's a leader in UX research,the author of Interviewing

Users (01:02):
How to Uncover Compelling Insights and the book, Doorbells

Danger and Dead Batteries (01:07):
User Research War Stories, and he's a
familiar face at conferences andworkshops around the world.
Justin Dower is a design leaderand culture advocate, founder of
Anomali by Design, and theauthor of Creative Culture:
Human-Centered InteractionDesign and Inspiration, and the

book, In Fulfillment (01:30):
The Designer's Journey.
His work focuses on design,marketing strategies, and
building design teams thatfoster healthy creative
environments while alsodelivering meaningful design
outcomes.
Recently, Steve and Justinannounced that, in addition to

(01:50):
their solo practices, they'renow collaborating.
Not a formal partnership, but aflexible arrangement where they
can work together when theopportunity is right.
In this episode, we dig intowhat that collaboration actually
looks like, why they're keepingtheir independent practices

(02:11):
intact, and what strengths theyeach bring to the table.
We also talk about the currentstate of UX consulting, the
realities of businessdevelopment in a slower market,
and how writing multiple books,whether self-published or
traditionally published, hasshaped their consulting work.

(02:31):
What I found most interestingand honestly most touching was
Steve's openness about socialcomparison and how that's been
the hardest part of consultingfor him.
For someone so renowned in ourindustry, it was equal parts
shocking and relieving to hearthis, it made me feel less alone

(02:55):
as a fellow consultant who isn'tas well known and is also
navigating this tough economy.
Steve also pointed out thatpeople sometimes forget or don't
even realize that they canactually hire him for the very
work he's known for.
With Justin, I loved when hedescribed how lucky we are as

(03:17):
consultants to control our owndestiny and being our own
bosses, and that it is somethingto be valued and cherished.
Justin shared that he's beenexperiencing extra long sales
cycles in this tough economy,and that is something I could
absolutely relate to.

(03:38):
Uh, it's been wild how aninitial sales call to a proposal
to finally closing a deal seemsto have quadrupled in time
lately.
Lastly, I loved how Justindescribed consulting as hard,
but so very worth it.
This conversation with Steve andJustin also touched on something

(04:01):
that doesn't get talked aboutenough.
As consultants, we don'ttypically go on LinkedIn and
announce when we're slow, butour full-time counterparts, you
know, UX"innies" can openly postabout being laid off and
struggling to find work.
We as consultants tend to sufferin silence because God forbid we

(04:24):
commit the sin of admitting thatwe're slow.
But the reality is, we're outhere hustling without the safety
net of an unemployment check.
It can feel isolating, which iswhy having these kinds of
conversations on this podcast isso important.
They remind us that we're herefor each other in solidarity and

(04:48):
camaraderie.
I think you're going to get alot out of this one, So grab
your favorite drink, settle in,and let's head into the lounge.
Please enjoy Steve Portigal andJustin Dauer.
Hi Steve and Justin.
Thank you so much for joining meon the UX Consultants Lounge

(05:08):
today.

Steve Portigal (05:09):
Thank you.
Great to see you.

Justin Dauer (05:11):
Hey, Kyle.
Great to be here.

Kyle Soucy (05:12):
Yeah, good to see you too.
I'm just so excited to have youboth here.
for the listeners, just so youknow, Steve and Justin announced
recently that they'recollaborating.
So in addition to their solopractices, they'll be working
together with clients.
And today we're going to unpackwhat that really means, uh, what

(05:34):
brought them together and howthey see the landscape of UX
consulting evolving.
And we'll possibly dive into howthey run their consultancies in
the day-to-day.
so let's start with yourindividual consulting journeys.
Steve, you've been runningPortigal Consulting for over two

(05:55):
decades offering UX research,training, and strategy services.
I'd love to know what led you togo solo and what has sustained
your work all these years.

I started in ux before we called it ux, when
there was no web.
And no, no user experience orux.
Uh, we called it HCI or wecalled it user interface.
Sometimes usability was the onlyword that got thrown around.
and I started with a graduatedegree in HCI and no design

(06:33):
experience and no awareness of,of user research and barely any
of usability in general.
And ended up at a industrialdesign consultancy in the,
nineties where industrial designwas the hot sort of innovation,
creative, um, you know.

(06:54):
Organizations that were, helpingto make things that were gonna
change, how people were usingtechnology, consumer products,
and so on.
It's like really differentlandscape now.
So that was an era whereindustrial design consultancies
were the hottest, mostinteresting kind of creative,
not necessarily where I worked,but in general.
It was a category where you sawa lot of interesting work being

(07:16):
done because companies weren'tdoing design, they didn't have
it staffed, they didn't reallyknow what it was.
Design, ux, user research, allthe things that we all do, were
mostly, with some exceptions,not fully embraced.
And so consultancies were wherea lot of this work was being
done.
And I apprenticed in this agencyand learned a lot of what I

(07:38):
still know how to do fromworking there at a time when we,
in the agency didn't really knowwhat we were doing.
It wasn't a mature field.
There weren't books, there werenot a lot of conferences or, or
just ways to find other peopledoing it.
and that agency didn't survivethe.
Dot com crash of 2001.

(07:59):
So this kind of dates where allthis was, so I didn't really
choose to go out on my own.
I, I had been a consultant, so Iknew what a lot of that
involved, and there weren'tin-house jobs and there weren't
agency jobs.
so I, I bought a domain with mylast name, which was available

(08:19):
back then, and, uh, decided Iwould just try it.
There wasn't really any otheroption for me, in 2001.
so it's just, I don't know.
Best, best way to deal with areally difficult, economic and
employment situation from 2001,taking what I had some
experience in being aconsultant, in user research

(08:39):
and, figuring out, what does itlook like to run a business
doing that?
So it was a choice that wasthrust upon me, but it doesn't
mean it was a bad choice or achoice that I regret.
It's just how I ended up on thepath that's, taken me for Yeah,
quite a long time.
more than two decades, like yousaid.

Kyle Soucy (08:59):
That's wild.
So in order to do the work youwanted to, do, you had to do it
yourself.
You had to go out on your own?

Yes.

Kyle Soucy (09:06):
Yeah.
Okay.
And over 20 years, I imaginethings have changed your
approach to consulting.
How has that changed over thesetwo decades?

The market has changed, the maturity of the
user research field has changed.
So I said a moment ago thatcompanies didn't have people
doing this work.
And so consultants were, thereto kind of lead.
and obviously we've hadtremendous growth in the
maturity of in-house, researchpractices, design practices.

(09:39):
So what we as consultants do is,has changed, what's the role for
me, with companies.
Um, lots and lots of research.
Most of it gets done by peoplein companies, let's just say.
Let's say that's true.
obviously there's a lot ofupheaval in is any research
being done and by whom andwhere, but, and some of the

(09:59):
thought leadership stuff I hadbeen doing, writing and speaking
at conferences and doingworkshops that sort of,
community building or just brandbuilding things have shifted to
be, a bigger portion of theservices that clients hire me
for.
and so I sort of found myself inthe last few years, focused on

(10:19):
two things really at a highlevel doing the work.
So we need to do some researchto answer some question that you
have to make.
And I think under that is whatkind of work would you hire me
to do versus what your teamwould do, and then getting
better at doing the work.
So looking at.
The practice, whether that'straining or, uncovering

(10:43):
disconnects in what companieswanna do, but how they're set up
or kind of auditing processesor, teaching people who do
research how to do research andhelping researchers up their
game.
And it's all inward lookingaround the practice of research
and not outward looking aroundwhat do we need to learn from

(11:04):
users in order to make thisbusiness decision.
I've really been able to focuson two very different pieces.
and what's been really rewardingfor me, I think is how those
inform each other.
For example, there's nothinglike making a mistake in the
field and realizing, oh, thatdidn't go well, because I failed

(11:25):
to follow the advice that's inone of my books.
And then, and then.
Teaching a, uh, teaching aworkshop on doing research and
having an example to share withsomeone about how I messed up
and how I messed up recently.
So being able to be better at mypractice because I'm teaching
other people and being able tobetter at teaching because I'm

(11:48):
still trying and failing andmaking mistakes and or having
successes that I can bring intomy, teaching as the stuff you do
to help people get better attheir practice.

Kyle Soucy (11:58):
Oh, there's nothing like the hard learned lessons
from the road.
That's great.
And, Justin, you launched,Anomali by Design almost three
years ago with a strong emphasison values like craft and
culture.
And I'd love to know what madeyou take the leap into
independent consulting,especially in these recent

(12:21):
times, which are hard aseveryone knows.

Yeah.
perhaps not the best timing.
so I'll definitely acknowledgethat.
And Steve's, journey isincredibly inspiring, to hear
because, three years, like yousaid, not a ton of time.
Multiply that by a factor ofalmost seven.
I, you know, I'm continuallyimpressed by what Steve has done
with his practice.
Um, the time that he cited whenhe, uh, went into, leading his

(12:45):
own practice in.com era, not toodissimilar from me in that I was
laid off from a major, techcompany at the time and, as a
design consultant, but I wentback into the agency space at
that point, rather than, go offon my own.
So I have more kudos to Steve inthat capacity.
But, um, that's the era and wewere figuring out what design
looks like.

(13:06):
And the digital landscapebroadly.
And that's where I cut my teeth.
and really being fascinated bythat caliber of creative problem
solving my work.
And that timeframe really put meon the map and helped build my
network in terms of a designerin that period of time.
So once I was able to launch myown practice, that was already
in place.
so that was immensely helpful.

(13:27):
But, you know, I, was in variousforms of design leadership for,
I don't know, probably around 20years.
at the, at that point, in-house,out of house, agency, studio,
what have you.
and I hit a point where I was, aVP of design at CVS Health for
their, benefits administrationproduct specifically.
And I left that role.

(13:47):
And, um, my boss, went on totake a new role and he
effectively offered me a similaropportunity, a VP of design to
build a practice within thehealthcare space.
And this is a very, privilegedthing to say, but I thought,
I've done that.
I've built teams, I've builtcultures.
I feel like I did a good amountof work in that space.
I felt like it's time to bet onmyself, which is why I decided

(14:07):
to work in an environment that Icould create that was completely
values aligned in spaces that Iwas energized by.
You know, I'm a, I'm a denimhead.
I collect denim.
I have a denim client.
I love coffee.
If I can get a coffee client,I'll probably retire.
Um, but, you know, really workon things that fuel me and
energize me.
And, thus far, knock on wood, mydesk is wood here, so my knock

(14:29):
on it, knock on wood.
it's worked out.
So I've been, I've beenfortunate.

Kyle Soucy (14:33):
That's fantastic.
Congratulations on taking theleap and what you said really
rings true about your network.
Your network is everything.
I tell anybody that's thinkingabout getting into consulting,
it's who you know.
It doesn't have to be.
A lot of people, it has to bethe right people.
and I wanted to take a momenthere'cause I was looking back on

(14:55):
some of your LinkedIn posts thatyou had, and there was one, a
year after you started, Anomalidesign where you were just
reflecting on the year of yourfirst year in business.
And you were very just, you weregreat about being honest with
your feelings.
You were saying that, have I hadsome second thoughts at times?
Yes.
Have I experienced impostersyndrome?
Sure.

(15:16):
But you said, and I quote here,uh, here's the thing.
To have an opportunity to builda business and culture
inherently values aligned, asyou said, to be able to do high
quality consultive work acrossdesign and engagement, and to
work with clients in verticals,I respect and I'm energized by
literally worth every singleadditional gray hair.

(15:37):
And curious now, almostapproaching that three year
mark, feel the same way?

I do.
I'm glad I was so honest in thatpost because it's not to say
that there still aren't days ortimes or minutes or hours or
weeks where I'm like, God, thisis, it's hard.
did it, did I make the rightmove?
that's, that still comes up.
I just, admit my humanity there.
Um, but you know, the buck stopswith us as consultants in
totality and, you know, we canoutsource some things certainly,

(16:05):
but client relations.
Pre-sales and sales delivery,scheduling, if there's a
marketing calendar, what haveyou, it all falls on us at the
end of the day, but it all comesback to us too, which is
something I think is anon-trivial, point of value in
what we do.
we're not, busting our rears andsomeone else benefits we're able
to control our destiny, which Ithink is something to be valued

(16:27):
and cherished in many ways.
And again, it's, it's aprivilege thing and it's
something I, I appreciate, but,um, boy, it, it is worth it.

Kyle Soucy (16:34):
Absolutely.
I couldn't agree more.
and now just talking about yourcollaboration, you've recently
announced, I think it was acouple months ago, about, uh,
your collaboration and I wouldlove to know what sparked it and
why now.

Justin and I met a few years ago, I was visiting
Chicago and a bunch of peoplegot together at a bar or
something like that.
And I think maybe we knew ofeach other, but we had never
really interacted.
And I dunno, we started talking,here's, a bunch of people
holding fort as they do when,big wigs get together at a bar

(17:11):
and here's this kind of niceguy, quiet spoken.
And we, I think we liked talkingto each other a little bit.
And then, Justin, you may have adifferent version of this
narrative, but Justin reachesout to me shortly after that.
I think it says, would you writea forward for my book?
Is that right?
It was like the penultimatebook, I think in your things
that you'd published, but youasked me to do that and so, um,

(17:35):
you know, got this bookmanuscript, read it over,
proposed some things.
It ends up being a littlecollaboration just to get a
document to somebody that theyneed, how they need it, when
they need it.
And, here's this, all thispositive, interaction that we
had.
this is, I dunno, Justin is lowkey spoken, at least so far in

(17:56):
our conversation, but isexuberant in his feedback and
appreciation and, um, juststarted to set I guess a little
bit of a tone for us.
And I think we had a couple moreinteractions around publishing
things.
Somehow we end up in, in a like,Hey, let's catch up.
Call.
I'm sure Justin initiated thisand did this really audacious

(18:18):
thing and that no one has everdone.
'cause you catch up with people.
It's been so long.
We talk about networking.
Um, how do you kind of move yournetwork to closer relationships,
which as an introvert, I want,but I avoid.
Right?
It's a weird conflicting thing.
and we have this great call andtalk about what we're doing and
Justin says, I think we shouldkeep in regular touch.

(18:38):
I think we should talk everythree weeks.
I'm putting it on the calendar,which is, I mean, that's
chutzpah.
Um, but I agreed, and then westarted talking and I think
Justin, you may have been reallydirect, I think there's an
opportunity here.
At some point you brought thatup and, we didn't know what to
do with that.
And we spent a lot of time over,I don't know, a couple of years

(19:03):
talking, sharing stories,complaining, celebrating,
talking about just everything inour practices and in our sort of
public personas and our writing.
And, we had to figure out like,how do you figure out what the
collaboration looks like?
And we started a Google Doc atone point and then dropped it.

(19:24):
and then, there was someworkshop that was being promoted
that was led by two people thatmaybe have different podcasts or
have different kind ofconsulting brands.
And Justin sends this along andsays this is like the model,
this is the template.
And after kind of years oftalking about how we would work
together, I think maybe we werestuck on like, how do you

(19:47):
position it?
How do we retain our individualbrands and create kind of an
gestalt narrative that says thisis better when we're together
because we have these separatethings.
and we saw somebody else do itand it was really a piece of
inspiration.
And we again, started a Googledoc, but we kind of rift through

(20:07):
talking about.
Why us?
What do we wanna do?
How do we describe it?
Uh, and it, it came together, Ithink it took us, you know,
years of talking to be able toreally quickly, and I think
joyfully, if I can use thatword, it was really like we had
a lot of fun, workingasynchronously in a documents

(20:29):
and, Justin sketching things upand just figuring out how do we
tell a story about what we cando and what we want to do and
what we think ourdifferentiation is.
it came together easily becausewe'd been talking to each other
for a really long time.
I'll stop there.
Kyle.
I'm sure there was some otherpoint that I should have been

(20:51):
heading towards, but I'll stop.

Kyle Soucy (20:54):
Well, that's, no, it's good to know what triggered
it.
And Justin, would you say that'sabout an accurate portrayal of
how it came together or would

Yeah, yeah, of course.
Steve nails it.
I, we had both, I think,discovered that we, at that
first bar conversation, we hadgiven consecutive opening
keynotes at Midwest uxconference, and we were like,
oh, so that kind of kickedthings off and I'll tell you
what, at this point in our.
Slash my career.
I want to work with folks thatare, I'll keep saying this.

(21:24):
Values aligned are going toenergize me, inspire me, and
challenge me.
I don't wanna be stayed in myevolution.
I want to continue to grow and Iwanna do things and work with
people that I'm passionate aboutand, really drive success.
Steve and I are incrediblyvalues aligned.
we cherish a healthy culture.
We've done a lot of work in thatcapacity, but via, writing or

(21:46):
public speaking.
and then, the, if you look atour logo, the Steve Plus Justin
logo, it's the you got mychocolate in my peanut butter,
peanut butter in my chocolate,that old commercial.
and we just said that kind of adhoc, you know, ha, isn't that
funny?
And then I, I made the, youknow, a logo about it.
But, um.
We just compliment each otherincredibly well in so many
facets from delivery throughoffering, through beliefs, in

(22:11):
business and otherwise.
And, I don't know the, it's, Ithink at this point in my dotage
and back to my gray hairs,again, I wanna work in
environments that, are where I'mgoing to do my best work.
And, creating our ownenvironment, again, a, a massive
point of privilege with somebodywho I consider a friend and also
somebody who inspires megreatly.
It's a non-trivial thing andit's something I value

(22:31):
immensely.
So that's why, Steve's cassette,Justin started the Google
document or he made the phonecall, when I see something I
want to go for it.
And I think this was somethingdefinitely worth, going for.
So, yeah, we're massivelyexcited about it and I
appreciate you asking about it.

Kyle Soucy (22:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I noticed you've both beenintentional about using the term
collaboration and notpartnership.
Is there a reason for thatdistinction?

Well, what are you, some kind of user
researcher.
Yeah.
Take take a shot of that Justin.
I have a thought, but please.

I think it shows, um, we have confidence
separately as well ascollaboratively.
Steve has his own brand and hisown, offerings and client.
Book, and, business things thathe is working on, I, I do as
well.
And I think it's cool to be ableto deviate and go do our own
things, then realign, um, onthe, on the same path and go off

(23:27):
and spoke out and come backagain.
I think we both value that kindof fluidity, to retain our,
individual identities.
And I hate to say personalbrand, but some variation of
that concept here.
and our respective networks aswell.
but it's cool to just come backtogether and say, oh, here's
something.
let's go talk about that.
Let's chase that.
Or, Hey, I have an idea.
Let's come back together and,put together a Google doc and

(23:48):
chase that.
So it offers some autonomy andit offer off also offers a
degree of complementarycohesion.
I think that's quite cool.

Kyle Soucy (23:55):
I see you nodding Steve.
So

I agree.
And I think, uh, you know,collaborations aren't exclusive.
Right?
Partnerships suggests to yourpoint, Justin, about individual.
Versus together.
There's a, that, that word, Imean, it has a legal meaning,
around business structures, Ithink.
And it also just, it, itsuggests, exclusivity, and I
don't think that's what we'reseeking, you know, to have,

(24:20):
healthy balances and, pursuedifferent opportunities that
come up.
But it says, Hey, we're thinkingabout each other and thinking
about, what we can do togetheras part of the overall mix.

Kyle Soucy (24:30):
I think it's very wise.
I.
I'm not familiar with otherpeople doing it, so I have not
seen this before, so that's whyI was so intrigued by it.
I think I was mainly intriguedthat you are still keeping your
solo practice intact while youexplore this collaboration
together, and I can't tell youhow many times over.
my career as a consultant,people have come up to me and

(24:52):
they said, Hey, we shouldpartner.
And I'm like, Hey, what the helldoes that mean?
I don't know.
You want me to totally throwaway everything I've built,
start something new that'sscary.
it just, there's so manydifferent ways to do it and I
think this is really interesting'cause it's to me, safer, right?
you can explore without givinganything up.

(25:14):
definitely kudos for tryingsomething like this out.
And I'd love to learn a littlebit more about what this
collaboration looks like.
we talked before and youmentioned you don't have joint
clients yet, but, would love toknow what kind of work you're
hoping to do together.
what would a dream project looklike for the two of you?

at a macro level, again, to come back to the
collaborative point, it's moreirons in the fire, right?
It's not easy out there.
we can chase work individuallyand come back and chase work
collaboratively.
So I think that's a huge boon,if nothing else, at a very, at a
30,000 foot level.
But as far as our offering,Combined or collaboratively.
I kind of tipped my hat to thisearlier.

(25:54):
when Steve and I were noodlingthrough what can we do together
that makes sense?
And like he said, we thought ofsome things, then we'd come back
three weeks later and I'm like,eh, that doesn't really work.
We finally had a eureka momentwhen I was driving back from
Nashville, with my family, and Iwas on a call with Steve and and
we just nailed it.
Like it was like lightningstriking.
And we came to two points and hethrew some notes down in a

(26:14):
Google doc.
Boy, that keeps coming up.

This episode sponsored today by Google Docs.

my gosh.
and a and in an online documentenvironment, we put together
some thoughts and, it just cametogether and it came, it
congealed in two ways.
Culture, as I said, we're verypassionate about, and we, um,
distilled that down to teambuilding.
Or, you know, creativeorganizations within large
organizations.
And one of the things Imassively value, which again,

(26:44):
comes back to another reason whyI respect Steve so much, is the
value of research.
When I took that role on as, aVP at CVS Health, the first
thing I did as a design leaderwas build a research practice.
because we were, at the time,the organization was outsourcing
it to a, another company thatCVS Health owned.
And, I wanted to build itinternally so it could be more

(27:06):
nimble.
We can build relationships withthe organization and build a
practice from there.
so that's, to me is alwayshigher one or if it, if it suits
the, the given need.
And it did.
Absolutely.
In that case.
So I, I value research forculture building and, creative
output and product buildinginherently.
To that end, the chocolate andpeanut butter mindset towards

(27:26):
culture building, team building,as well as building product or
helping organizations understandproduct market fit.
Should we even be building thisproduct?
I think because of Steve and my,and I don't mean to put words in
your mouth, Steve, respectivepractices and beliefs and
experience.
We can be small but mighty inthat capacity and we can provide

(27:47):
a metric ton of value based onwhat we're able to deliver and
coach clients through.
so that's what we're reallyexcited about and charged by.
And that's really what, in thecore of the DNA of what we put
together here.

Yeah, I can add to that.
When I, when I'm hired to doresearch, it's often, very early
on in any process.
and I'm not doing, research thatthen is gonna ship in the very
immediate term.
Usually the questions arethornier and hairier longer term
or more whatever, more forwardlooking.

(28:19):
and I don't know, I miss that.
I think, growing up in thedesign consulting world, it was,
you were trying to ship stuff.
You were trying to change howpeople thought about things and
ship things.
even if we weren't deliveringdesign services, they were
coming to a design firm forresearch or innovation or
whatever they're calling it.
and I have missed that over theyears and I think.

(28:42):
by crafting a new story aboutwhat we do together, opens up
the opportunities to work on,you call them dream projects,
they're different.
I mean, hopefully different thaneither of us have done, but
bringing the best of what weboth can do.
and reimagining a category andhelping the company move it
forward.

(29:03):
I don't know that we're talkingabout kind of execution
shipping, but there's stuff thathas to happen.
and all the stories that Justinand I have been sharing about
how we work, it's a little, Ikind of find some of his stories
tantalizing because things getmade, as a result of these
difficult to inform decisionsand it makes me feel like, oh, I

(29:23):
want to inform these, thosedecisions and see them.
Take flight.
It doesn't mean that peopledon't act on my solo work, it's
just I'm not engaged when thathappens.
and so a different structure ofan engagement where it's not me
doing my best as a consultant,but it's us doing our best as a
team to solve a bunch of thingsthat have to happen inside an

(29:47):
organization, either to ship orto change culture and build
teams.
Uh, if I think about a trainingdiscussion that I'm in, it's
usually very focused on the nutsand bolts of research.
That's what I've written about,that's what I've been, speaking
about.
the context for why are we doingresearch and what are we trying

(30:08):
to do and what do we do with it?
there's a larger set of.
Of practices and best practices,that I think, Justin's
leadership, building teams andkinda working over time across
the organization, I have lessexperience in, and I can see how
those are questions that myclients should be asking when

(30:29):
they're asking me for help withresearch skill building.
and so again, it's not end toend, it's not soup to nuts, but
it is a more sort of allencompassing or a broader
encompassing offering that, wecan tell a story together about
how we can do it and we cancollaborate.
Like Justin has workshopmaterials and best practices and

(30:53):
theories and, knows how to runthis in this kind of meeting
when we're in the situation.
Like he just has a palette thathe's expert in that I don't, And
so I think the, the chocolateand peanut butter, putting those
two things together means thatwe can work.
Um, yeah, it, it's, it's up alevel maybe in the organization

(31:15):
or across, I'm not sure what thepositioning, uh, words are,
around that, like directionalityof it.
But it seems like there's justgonna be, better ability to
solve, I think the problems thatwe all, we both are seeing, that
we can't necessarily step intowithout, having the right team
in place.

Kyle Soucy (31:34):
Well, I'm oddly craving a Reese's peanut butter
cup now,

A second sponsor.
Yeah, exactly.

Kyle Soucy (31:41):
But I can see how the individual strengths that
you both have, how they cancompliment each other well in
this offering.
And there's nothing I personallylove better than a designer that
values research and understandsthat it's not a bottleneck and
it's the only way to get to gooddesign.
so to me that's the dream,right?
I'm so glad you could take methrough that.

(32:03):
I was very curious about it andI'd love to talk now about.
Your thoughts, both of you onthe current state of UX
consulting.
Steve, you've been candid onLinkedIn and in Slack
communities about the slowdownin your work, which I so
appreciate, the transparency andwillingness to be open to talk

(32:25):
about this since we're allfeeling it right now.
And I was wondering, what do youthink is behind that shift?

You hear things get thrown around and I sort of
pick those up, uh, what the endof free money is.
One thing that got said, whichI'm not an economically smart
enough to kind of explain, uh,the social contagion of sort of
layoffs, that's a decrease indemand, that's led to changes
in-house.

(32:54):
and yeah, that's all anyonereally wants to talk about,
right?
the people that are losing theirjobs that can't get jobs.
Well, all of us are stillhustling and hustling harder,
but we sometimes I feel verybitter that we don't get sort of
the.
LinkedIn share of grief, that ismostly saved for the in-house
people, and that's not a verygenerous thought of mine, but,

(33:16):
we know

Kyle Soucy (33:16):
it's true.

we're looking for work our whole careers and,
yeah, I don't exactly know whythere's less need.
The work that we do if it's notperceived as valuable enough,
can be executed by someonecheaper.
Um, you know, why would I hireJustin when I can hire an intern
who already knows Figma and theycan just go off and execute

(33:42):
according to my directions?
yeah, there's been so many,angsty thought out posts about
what are the systemic causes,what are the systemic fixes?
And, I'm saying somethingbecause the questions come up,
but I don't, I'm not, grindingan ax about this in particular.
I don't know, any more than sortof the, the surface level that I

(34:03):
just dribbled here.

Kyle Soucy (34:05):
No, I agree.
There's so much we don't know.
a lot of people suspected that Ithink US independents are.
Busy because the work stillneeds to get done, right?
We're laying off all theinternal folks.
it'll probably go to freelancersor something.
And sadly that's not been thecase.
not in my experience, it's justnot getting done.

(34:27):
budgets aren't being approvedfrom what I see.
Lots of freezing, lots of peopleholding on, because of
uncertainty.
And I think you're right.
It's frustrating that we're notvery loud, on LinkedIn because
God forbid you commit the sin ofbeing a consultant and admitting
you don't have work.
But that is the case, for a lotof us with these last few years

(34:48):
have been tough.
And Justin too, I know you'vetalked about the importance of
supporting designers, includingyour advocacy for unionization
when you had Ethan Marcot onyour podcast.
And how does that mindsetinfluence the way you approach
client work or businessdecisions?

first of all, it's, to your original question,
it's not easy out there by anystretch.
and my, sales cycles are justmassive, almost laughably
massive.
I thankfully just signed, or hada client sign an SOW, I dunno, a
couple weeks ago, but that's,that was like five and a half
months of conversation fromemail one to that point.

(35:28):
so just again, where to the buckstops with us ism, just all the
energy expended on conversationsand check-ins and re revisions
and, you still have othercommitments going on, or if
there's kids and you have totake care of it.
It's a lot.
And again, it's a wonderfulthing and it's a point of
privilege, but it's a lot ofenergy expended, in a
non-trivial capacity.

(35:48):
it's not easy out there.
And again, that's why, you know,I think Steve and I coming
together to, have another,branch in the tree, if you will,
towards maybe getting some workand doing some work together in
a really cool capacity is agreat thing.
And I would recommend a similarexploration if you, if there's
another, UX consultant in thatcapacity finds their, UX spirit
animal to potentially pursue,because I think there's a lot of

(36:10):
good there In terms of, morejunior designers and navigating,
their career paths.
Right now, my, my heart goes outto those who are.
Just can be a name on aspreadsheet, more or less when
it comes to layoffs or staffreductions.
And you just see this happeningby the hundreds.
And then there's another post.
this company laid off of, 9,000or this company laid off 500

(36:30):
and.
like Steve mentioned, the.comera that, you just heard on this
call that happened to both of usat that point.
And I was exactly a name on thespreadsheet at that point, and I
was just the entire city ofChicago, that office was just
wiped out.
just a, an Excel tab deleted atthat point.
That put me in a massive debt.
and, not to play the tinyviolin, but again, to empathy
and compassion.

(36:51):
I am genuinely concerned and,that's why I consider a lot of
the public speaking.
I do an act of service in thatcapacity about finding your best
fit and finding an organizationthat's gonna support you.
One of the good signs for, ifyou're gonna apply for a role,
like it's gonna be a goodcultural fit or support your
evolution, or you could be therefor the long haul.
So I think as much as, as weconsultants are doing brand

(37:12):
building and building our,recognition, towards our work
and what we can do for clients,I consider that an act of
service as well, which to mecomes back to values alignment
about that kind of speaking andhelping people in our field
evolve and find work and grow aswell.
so it's not just about us thatfor me to we mindset.
a bit of a gray, muddy answerthere, but, um.

(37:33):
It's not easy for consultants,for any level, junior, mid,
senior, and up from there.
But, I think as long as we haveclear expectations of what our
values are and how we can alignthem to this field or something
else, which I've considered inthe past, do I wanna be a
carpenter?
do I wanna be a mechanic?
I don't know.
I think you'll end up in a goodspot.
But, just kind of understandingthings take time now.

(37:54):
Finding a job takes time.
Finding work takes time.
but other things happen quickly.
The evolution of AI happensquickly and that technology, it
leaps and bounds day over day orhour.
Hour.
So, I don't know.
That was a kind of a crazyanswer, but, there's a lot going
on right now and that's why Ithink, conversations like the
ones we're having are just goodto get it out there in a brain
dump capacity and hopefullyextract some value from there.

Kyle Soucy (38:16):
Oh yeah.
And what you said about the longsales cycle.
Oh, it, it is frustrating.
It seems longer now, I'venoticed with, some direct
clients when I get into thatproposal writing stage, lots
more back and forth like that,Ooh, do I really wanna commit
now that I'm seeing this inblack and white?
Where prior to writing theproposal, it was like, we need

(38:37):
to get this done yesterday.
Let's go, let's go.
And then they see it and they'relike, whoa, I don't know.
Let's pump the brakes a littlebit.
So I'm seeing that as well and Ithink it's very, interesting how
with this feeling of the jobmarket really just falling off a
cliff.
I always told myself, over these20 years consulting that What's

(39:00):
the risk like?
So if things don't work out, Ijust go get a real job, right?
No big deal.
Now, a lot of my friends andcolleagues who are also 20 year
veterans, they, it is hard.
It is hard that, that seniority,that those years of, experience
are actually working against younow.
so that's kind of scary.

(39:20):
so I just had to, you know, whatyou were saying, just echoed
that and what I was feeling.
I, it's just surprising howthings have changed just so
quickly.
Um, just a follow up on this.
From your experience, both ofyou, are your clients changing
in how they value UX researchand design strategy?

A lot of my ins, interestingly in client
conversations, and that's justto get the door open.
have been through the lens ofmarketing.
I've found that interesting.
And oftentimes you poke aroundand say, when you say marketing,
what do you mean?
And ultimately it can come downto design or research as being
the need.
This could just be myexperience, but a couple, maybe

(40:03):
three of the engagements I'veactually signed have been
through the initial lens of Ineed marketing help.
Then you dig in.
Like I said, it can be, maybesocial media is a facet and I
could outsource some of that.
Or maybe, we need AI integratedin some capacity to just, keep
up with my competition and Ihelp them strategize, about what

(40:24):
can we actually do here?
how can it be applicable?
How can it be cost effective?
How are we not gonna burn down aforest, with a million cycles of
wasted processing?
So I think as consultants,that's again, in a design and
research thinking capacity.
We can help them pump the brakesa bit and pause with intent and
analyze what they actually wantto and need to do.

(40:44):
it's been interesting where workhas come from.
I've gotten some work frompeople finding my company's name
in another engagements websitefooter.
And they reached out to me andsaid, I like what you did here.
Let's talk.
And, and, maybe I overhearsomething.
I'm gonna always be closingmode.
So I always have my businesscards on me.
And if I'm at, my son's birthdayparty and somebody walks in,
they're like, oh, do you know soand so owns three restaurants in
Chicago.

(41:04):
I'm like, hi, I'm Justin.
I have a business card here.
how's your, how are yourwebsites looking?
So again, towards energyexpenditure, being an always be
closing mode and just try andthink, is there an in, is there
a good fit?
Is this somebody I might wannawork with?
so work has come from weirdplaces.
What I'm trying to do isstandardize that and make it not
come from weird places as muchas possible and make it more

(41:24):
predictable.
Which of course is the goldenapple in what we do.
So that's why, in working withsomeone like Steve and
collaborating in that capacity,maybe we could standardize
things a bit more and take a bitof that anxiety off.

Kyle Soucy (41:35):
Oh, that's a great segue, to what I wanted to talk
about next, which was a littlebit about, business development
and marketing.
And the number one question Iget from listeners is, where do
you find the clients and, wheredo you find them and how do you
keep them?
And how do you both manageclient relationships, when it's

(41:55):
just you, your solo practice?
And also how do you envisiondoing that when you take on the
joint clients together?

Where do you find clients?
I think the strategy that I'vechosen, and this goes back 20
plus years, is to, have clientsfind me.
and that's when I pause likethat, it sounds like it's a big
insight, but it's not right.
I think, cold calling doesn'twork, keeping in touch and
maintaining relationships doeswork, but I think people that

(42:26):
are new to consulting or salesoverall or business development,
think that you go talk someoneinto hiring you.
Here's what I can do, and I'mgonna give you a pitch, which is
meant to persuade you.
but that's not really how itworks, right?
You're trying to, like inJustin's example, make people

(42:46):
aware that you can solve aproblem that they have and ask
them questions about whatthey're doing.
but how do you get those initialconversations to begin with?
like I've said a couple times,I've written books.
I used to write a column in amagazine.
I used to write on a prominentdesign blog.
LinkedIn is now where you canfind me.
We've spoken at Midwest ux, I'vespoken at conferences literally

(43:09):
around the world.
and all that makes people awarethat I exist and that I have
some unspecific qualificationsor prominence.
so what I think what I'm tryingto do, whether this has been
successful or not, I don't know,is be in the consideration set,
right?
When someone says, oh, we wantto really up our game, around

(43:32):
this product or around this partof our practice, I want someone
in that conversation to say, oh,you know who we should call
Steve Portigal, right?
I don't know.
I can't say that's workedbeautifully, but certainly I get
that feedback from people like,we're doing this thing, and of
course we wanted to talk to you.
that's a beast that has to befed like in five years from any

(43:55):
point in time.
There's all kinds of new peoplein the field, new people in
leadership roles, and newcompetitors, new, thought
leaders.
the field shifts.
So you have to constantly bedoing stuff to put out there so
people keep finding you or keepbe being reminded of you.
Today Justin and I are on apodcast talking about our

(44:16):
practice.
this is great for us.
This is our first time beingtogether, doing stuff that says,
Hey world, we exist and here'swhat we're about.
And we've certainly brainstormedcontent we could create or
relationships that we could,start to foster, ways that we
could take our individualrelationships and introduce each

(44:40):
other and present ourselves as ateam.
all these things take energy andtake, focus and, have to be
balanced among everything else.
So I feel like for Justin and I,we're not short of good ideas.
Everything has to beprioritized.
We have just tried to take itslow and, not make it,

(45:01):
burdensome for us.
But we have, in a documentcollaborative environment, we do
have a list of things that wecould do, people that we should
talk to, we thought about, notpitching somebody, but asking
for feedback and thinking aboutwhat kind of people might hire
us, and whether it's callingsomeone that we actually want to
hire us or that just can speak,reflectively about the

(45:24):
challenges in spending money onconsultants or, can give us
feedback on our positioning and.
Why would we hire chocolate andpeanut butter when we can get,
caramel over here?
I don't know what feedback wewould get, but, going to people
and saying, Hey, can you give usfeedback, is a way for us to
practice lowercase as selling,like talking about ourselves,

(45:47):
talking about what we have tooffer.
and what I have found in thelast few years is, and again,
energy ebbs and flows, but I hada little program from my own
practice of just reconnectingwith people and, I have a large
contact database as we all havesome version of that is just,

(46:08):
gee, who would be good to talkto.
And, those are calls that I'vepositioned as, Hey, let's just
catch up and not, Hey, let metell you what I'm doing.
And some people will ask whatyou're doing.
Be interested and say, youshould talk to so and so, or I
have this thing coming up.
and so again, as an introvert,it fits pretty well to like ask

(46:30):
people questions, hear whatthey're doing and see how
organically that can lead toopportunities, or even just
plant seeds for futureopportunities.
So I think for Justin and I, weare taking it slow and just
announcing something on LinkedInwas like a big step and and
having this conversation withyou today.

(46:52):
and I think it's about, chancefavoring the prepared mind.
I think by us announcing thiscollaboration and practicing
talking about it, it will let ushear opportunities that we may
not have seen before.
Justin and I think complimenteach other with a lot of
overlap, which is what I likeabout us.
But Justin, I think you're gonnahave a different answer to
Kyle's initial question.

Kyle Soucy (47:14):
Yeah.
Anything different about findingand keeping clients and just
business development approach?

I appreciate Steve's answer for sure.
and again, standardization of itis something I aspire to.
It's coming from someinteresting ways.
for example, a Japanese companyinnovation competition that my
company was, so I don't know howwe were found, but, maybe it was
the brand building side ofthings.
My company was invited to,participate.

(47:41):
We ultimately, won thatcompetition and are now, talking
to several companies in theJapanese market who might be
interested in building a Westernpresence.
that to me is like a meteorhitting and then me touching it
and becoming, a superpower.
it's, it comes outta nowhere.
It offers a great gift, but Iwant to standardize things as
much as possible, and to thepoint of humility and being as

(48:02):
realistic as I said, I, I knowfolks like Steve and you and
I've, you know, years and yearsof building up a network boy
that has yet to pay off in awork capacity.
I know great people and I'minspired and I'm charged.
But in terms of Obtaining,putting food on the table, like
channeling, that into energy, ifyou will.
the wheel turning in the dam andgenerating energy from that,

(48:24):
that has yet to happen.
So working with someone as,brilliant as Steve is our way of
putting that together.
What are you laughing at, man?
you gotta take the

very, you're instinctively, kind.

no, but really so that, that's, that is a way of
trying to standardize that andmake that a non, astronomical
event as much as humanlypossible.
we're, like Steve said, we'revery intentional about the way
we approach things.
I think that's inherent in whowe are and our respective
crafts.
Like he also said, justannouncing it was a feat

(48:59):
articulating what the message isand what our offerings are like,
and what does the website looklike.
And you know, we have two, uh,folks who are, you know, senior
in our, respective careerevolutions with strong opinions
from our respective crafts.
And even just going through thatexercise, would it implode?
Like that's a non-trivial thing.
Like going through that we couldbe like this, you know what, I
like you a lot, it's not gonnawork.

(49:20):
so there were many chances forsomething like this for us to,
is it gonna pass the sniff test?
And repeatedly it's past thesniff test.
That's why again, we're socharged about what we're gonna
do and we're not just putting itout there to hopefully, buy a
Ferrari.
We're putting it out therebecause we genuinely think we
can offer genuine value togetherbased on our respective
offering.
So I think that's a really coolthing.

Kyle, you asked, there was a bunch of facets to
your question.
I think we, I don't know howmuch we picked up on the keep
clients aspect of it.
That was the last part of yourquestion.
And, I think all thestorytelling that Jess and I
have been doing and building ourrelationship and building our
collaboration.
Justin just has these greatstories about the individual,

(50:02):
key client in some of hisprojects.
And they're not always rosybecause work is not always
perfect.
If it was effortless, theywouldn't need us.
but I think that keeping clientsthing, like when I look around
at just my peers, I think somepeople are excellent at that.
I guess to me, keeping clientsis, it's not, don't get fired,

(50:23):
it's keep going.
and I have sometimes been ableto keep going with clients and
sometimes not.
it's been a up and down mix.
but I really respect the waysome people are so good at that,
I don't know ju Justin, I thinkyou care about the people and
you.
Take on their objectives andmission as your own.

(50:48):
and that's sort of a, maybe adesign mindset, what you're
building.
and I think, again, I'm nottrying to like Slack myself
here, but I think as aresearcher, you wanna learn
stuff and then you want to helpsomebody else, really get on
board with that thing.
but the learning stuff,understanding the world in a new
way is it can be a completelysatisfying payoff.

(51:09):
And, I care about my clients andI want them to do well.
And I see people like Justinthat are excellent at that.
And I think, That's a way to upmy own keeping clients' game is
putting that skin really intothat relationship and into the
outcomes that kind of come fromthere.
That's riskier.
That's sort of emotionallyriskier.

(51:31):
and I think we get pushed,through going through
procurements and setting allthese terms and being project
management.
it is easy to be.
Transactional in the work.
And I think, COVID and remotework made work more
transactional.
it's just the nature of thedynamic that our clients are in

(51:52):
is scheduling and, zoom boxesand calendar boxes and, ticking
off things, on lists.
And, it is hard to put yourwhole heart in when you're put
in a transactional mode.
And again, that's why I look topeople like Justin and others
that inspire me, who care, withtheir full bodies to get there.

(52:13):
and I think that is, that's howyou keep clients, right?
Is to really, is to love thework and to act like you love
the work.

Kyle Soucy (52:22):
Yeah.
And just to care about thatrelationship.
It's not transactional.
It shouldn't be.
Absolutely.
I think that's a very goodreminder for myself and for
everyone that these are not justclients.
You know You want them to be.
A long-term engagement, afriendship, something you care

(52:42):
about, the outcome you careabout, where they go, what
challenges they have, how youcould or could not help them.
absolutely.
And something you said earlier,prompted a question that might
sound a little odd or perhapsdumb, but here it goes.
you mentioned top of mind.
You wanna be top of mind whensomeone's like, okay, we have

(53:03):
this problem.
so and so wrote a book on it.
They're everywhere about it.
We need to get, Steve, Justin inhere on this.
That's great.
But I have a question here whereI saw this happen before Donna
Spencer, I think it was fiveplus years ago, pre COVID, a
long time ago.
She wrote on LinkedIn and shewas writing a reminder to

(53:24):
everybody who follows her and I,she said, I might be somewhat
famous, quote unquote, but.
I am also someone you can hire.
is it possible to have too muchawareness where you almost are
untouchable, where people feellike, oh yeah, we need someone
like that, but not him, becausehe's too, you know, we can

(53:44):
possibly get him when reallyit's like, I'm accessible,
folks, you can hire me.
Is that something either of youhave ever experienced or is that
kind of insane?
You could never really be too,well known or have too much
awareness.

I think you, you nailed it.
I've had people say, I'm sureyou're too busy.
Which those are the people thathave reached out, but they still
are sort of, you know, hedgingtheir request.
Um, at times when I'm definitelynot too busy.
yeah, I, and I don't know that,that being less known is, I
don't think it's like, dial your11 back to a seven and then

(54:19):
everyone will know that you'refamous

Kyle Soucy (54:20):
was a sweet spot.

of mind.
I don't think there is a sweetspot.
I think it's just a, We knowthis with social media and with
sort of positioning our work,like people create narratives
about you and, it's hard tocontrol that.
I don't know, you end up on apodcast, not this one, but you
know, they write a bio about youor they mispronounce something.

(54:42):
Or I've spoken at conferenceswhere they've said, Steve
Portigal author.
And that is a way of showing howgreat their conference is'cause
they got this famous author.
But it's terrible for me.
And I've had peers write me,advocating for me upset that
this site or this event hasframed me that way.

(55:02):
They're like, don't, doesn't soand so the event know all that
you've done.
I'm like.
Yes, I would like to be alwayspresented as this is someone
that you can hire.
And so we don't always controlthat.
And then I think, you do thingslike write books and your books
are filled with examples ofJustin's book is filled with
examples of leading teams andbuilding culture.

(55:24):
and does talks about that.
And, and then people createtheir own story.
Justin's an author.
Let's have him on our book talkpodcast.
And this book was really great.
It really helped us.
You're still the author.
and I think that's the upside isI've gotten more authoring kind
of work.
I think training and runningworkshops as stuff that experts

(55:49):
get to do.
but as soon as I published myfirst book 2013, it seemed I saw
a drop off in the amount ofrequests to do research that was
a book about how to do research2013.
And then, all of a sudden peopleweren't calling me to do
research and they were callingme to speak and they were paying

(56:10):
me to speak and I was gettingother kinds of things.
but it's, yeah, I don't know.
And it feels sour grapes tocomplain about the downside of
having a, I mean I'll just callit fame, right?
Donna is a great example ofsomeone that is famous and has
done all that stuff and is likeOG as we say around a lot of
things.
I actually like how Donna's sortof stories about herself on all

(56:34):
sorts of platforms have beenabout, I have this contract, I
have this team.
Like she does a great job oftalking about sort of the
mechanics of her work andreminding us that she's in that
sort of substance.
Like I don't write.
Hey, I responded to an RFP lastweek and I'm still waiting to
hear.
I don't, to me, that's veryprivate stuff and I don't want

(56:56):
that to be, yeah.
I don't wanna make content outof that.
and so me being busy or notbeing busy or having work, or
looking for work or, you know,is, is hidden.
It's sort of it forconversations like this as
opposed to sort of posting in aone-to-many kind of way.
so yeah, just to reiterate, Ithink you, you nailed a

(57:16):
challenge that I have beengrappling with and I don't, I
have no idea.
I mean, I have, I have someidea, but I don't have an
effective way of keeping mybrand as, uh, you can hire me.
I don't know.

Kyle Soucy (57:29):
Yeah, it's interesting for me to know that
that is a real problem and thatyou can be sometimes assumed to
be too expensive or too, youknow, infamous to bring into, an
organization.

I, I did one thing, and I don't know that
this is effective, but just toplay with it, so LinkedIn has
those, open to work rings youcan put around your profile
photo, but somebody made, like alittle banner generator, That
you could use to generate yourown banner around your photo.
and, I did a, I think it saysconsulting or something like

(58:02):
that.
So I chose a color and I offeredit to some people in a Slack
group to the idea.
Maybe we could extend thatlanguage to say We are hireable,
and put it in the photo the waythat other people are kind of
using that photo to say how youcan transact with them.

Kyle Soucy (58:19):
Yeah.
Yeah, I saw that.
I have not done that, but I'vebeen thinking about it, like why
not?
Yeah.
Can't hurt.
Yeah.
One last topic I wanted to touchon before we do some rapid fire
questions at the end here.
we talked about writing.
Both of you have writtenmultiple UX books.
and it's interesting to hearabout how it does and does not

(58:42):
sometimes lead to, a certainkind of work that you might get.
Definitely more speaking gigs.
For those that are out therelistening, a lot of consultants
consider writing.
I definitely have.
Justin, you chose to,self-publish your books, which
is no small feat.
and I was wondering what drovethat decision and how did it
shape your experience as both anauthor and a consultant?

Well, the first book Cultivating a Creative
Culture, was actually startedwith a book apart.
so the first three chapters wereedited by, a book apart authors,
and it was going to be a part ofthat brand.
but we ultimately deviated,myself and them amicably and I
decided to self-publish instead.
Now, as a.

(59:26):
Designer and someone who is, um,uh, cherishes, brand development
and storytelling.
For me, that was a huge boonbecause then I was able to take
control of the look and feel andthe brand development and bring
in illustrations, write a bitless than an editorial capacity
and more inject my experienceand myself into the material.

(59:46):
So it was a shift that, I reallyvalued.
But, holy moly, picking your owneditor, razor thin margins on
publishing.
quality of book means you makeless money.
all I was massively naive tothat.
So as someone who genuinelyvalues, being a student of my
craft and evolution, I valuedthose learnings.
But, I did not value the effortinvolved in picking up all that

(01:00:10):
slack because it, again, thebuck stops with you on all that.
To your question, how did thathelp me as a consultant?
Exactly that.
Understanding, if I'm going totake this on, the buck stops
with me on everything.
I have to find a quality editorthat's going to energize me, and
we're going to have the samevision and challenge me and call
me out.
My BS very similar to thedynamics Steve and I have.

(01:00:30):
We compliment each other, but wealso, keep each other in line
and help each other evolve.
So I appreciate you asking thatbecause it's actually a
fantastic, metaphor for thatkind of mindset.
really injecting humility thatyou can leverage your
experience, but you're not theexpert in a given thing.
You still have to be open toevolve and not assert.
Um, uh, because I've been aroundfor so long, I know it all.

(01:00:52):
I think as soon as we have thatkind of mindset, that's where
failure and speaking in a vacuumcomes into play.
Really putting values in action,helped in the publishing process
and like Steve was kind enoughto write the forward for the
second edition of my first book.
and writing another entire bookafter that.
again, it's a lot of time, it'sa lot of effort.
The value from the process helpsme evolve and I am a huge

(01:01:14):
believer in acts of service as,someone who does what I do.
So the lion share of my speakingengagements are about culture,
design, evolution, or practice.
the books hopefully are a toolof that as well.
it's been massively beneficialin that capacity?

Kyle Soucy (01:01:28):
Yeah, I was wondering about what advantages,
if any, existed with gettingthat control and flexibility
that you mentioned withself-publishing.
And, it sounds like that was theright decision to make
considering a book apart went,away.
And so, uh, that I think it wasgood you went that brow.
I know so many people arecurious about it.

(01:01:48):
I, myself am curious about it.
So it's great to hear, howimportant it is to have a good
editor, and hire that person andall those decisions.
There's a lot of them to make.
And Steve, your books were,traditionally published.
What was that experience like?
did working with a publisher,support or possibly limit your
goals?

Steve Portigal (01:02:08):
It You have less control.
as not a designer, I don't havea lot of the.
Ability to make a thing my way.
So it's good if someone else hasfigured out what it should look
like and how it should beproduced, all of that.
In terms of the consultantthing, we've talked about
networking in and out.
having published books is a toolfor reconnecting with people.

(01:02:29):
Like last week I talked tosomeone I hadn't talked to in
five years, who I really likeand respect.
And, they reached out to mebecause they wanted to get some
advice on publishing orself-publishing or writing.
and I probably have a version ofthat conversation with somebody
new.
I don't know.
Every six months, and there arejust really lovely

(01:02:51):
conversations.
I have, gone through thisprocess and have some thoughts
about what I did do, what Ididn't do, and to connect with
peers around that has really hasbeen positive when people that I
know and but we've never reallytalked about it.
This may vary by publisher, butone of the things I think was
really successful for me, inworking with a publisher is that

(01:03:12):
they provide, it's not just aneditor, it's a development
editor.
Like a thing that you learn isthere's different kinds of
editors and we as sort oflaypersons.
We think that's copy editing,fixing grammar and typos.
But the development editors, theperson that helps you shape the
narrative arc of the book andhelps you find your voice.

(01:03:34):
And just a very tacticalexample, when I was writing
interviewing users, I waswriting a lot of, I like to do
this, I do this, I had thisexperience.
So if I find myself in thissituation, I do that.
and the editor really pushed me.
Marta really pushed me.
You know, you have to tellpeople what to do when you are
in the situation, you should dothat.

(01:03:56):
and it's a grammatically, it's asimple thing, but it's a
completely different mind shiftin what's your role as the
writer to bring value to thereader.
and the expertise of adevelopment editor to tell you
here's how books are written.
Here's what they contain, here'show you vary.
The examples.
I can do Tapie tap with words,but I don't know what a book

(01:04:20):
consists of.
and so to get that kind ofguidance while you're writing,
'cause I think some people willproduce a whole manuscript and
then be like, alright, how do Iget it published?
Well, these are things thatwould be good to know as you go.
It's not to say that, and Ithink Justin was getting at
this, there are lots of peoplethat are available to hire to do
that, but you have to know thatexists, that's the kind of help

(01:04:41):
that you can get, as opposed tofinish something, getting it
copy edited and then, put into atemplate and published.
So learning what that journeylooks like and what those
collaborations can be.
you don't know what you don'tknow until you go through it a
little bit.

And what advice would you both have for, any
consultants that are consideringwriting as a way to support
their consulting work?

Justin Dauer (01:05:06):
I would say give yourself time.
for certain, both books, justwriting proper probably took me
10 months and then another twomonths to, for layout design
editor working in parallel, etcetera.
and also you have to be ashumble as humanly possible.
I will never forget the firsttime I got my book back from my

(01:05:27):
editor, and it's just a sea ofred.
Everything crossed out, entirethoughts that I thought were,
strokes of brilliance beingwiped out.
so you really have to maintainhumility, be open to being
challenged, particularly onsomething that, you know, we
say, you know, designed isaligned to business goals and
outcomes.
It's not like fine arts, that'sbs.

(01:05:47):
I'm still investing myself init, even though it's aligned to
the business and outcomes and isa product in many ways.
I'm still investing myself init.
And I think, I've put a lot ofgood work into whatever X is.
so to get something back that iscompletely a bloodbath, that,
that was a shock to the system.
So I appreciate the first timeat app and I was able to, yeah,
surf a, a good way from there.

(01:06:08):
But, yeah, stay as humble ashumanly possible because you'll
need it.

I'll add, there are, just think about what your
goals or desired outcomes mightbe.
'cause there's a lot of them.
Um, Justin alluded to margins.
I don't think most people don'tmake a lot of money writing a
book.
And certainly if you think aboutthe time that you've put in,
it's probably a very low paying,that's a low paying 10, 12

(01:06:32):
months of effort.
but there are, we've talkedabout credibility or being top
of mind.
I think it can be that, ifyou're really lucky, like most
books don't do really well.
I happen, I've written.
Two books and revised one.
one of them did extremely welland I think helped define a
field.
the other one not so much and Ican see that'cause I get royalty

(01:06:56):
statements and I can see thesales for one versus the other.
my second book, I'm extremelyproud of it.
I think it's one of sort of thethings that I've made and put
into the world that I'm justvery satisfied with.
And yeah, I wish it had donebetter and more people got on
board with what I wanted them toread and think about and
understand.
that's, doorbells danger anddead batteries, user research,

(01:07:17):
war stories available online.
Um, but I'm satisfied with that.
It was like a really greatexperience.
And, yeah, everything that I'vedone writing wise was hard and
satisfying and, unexpectedoutcomes was also.
I think part of the joy of,going down a career path you
don't quite understand, stuffhappens.

(01:07:39):
You put things out there andunexpected things come back.
people give you, complimentsthat are not, about the book or
anything that you put out, thataren't tied to your business
goals for doing that, but makeyou realize, oh wow, this has
value beyond what I could haveconceived.
And you'll get outcomes that youmaybe wouldn't have expected.
but yeah, you have to want to doit and I think it's good to

(01:08:03):
think about why you want to doit.
And I'm not trying to say thatone why is better than another,
but just thinking about whatoutcomes you hope for.
and, being prepared to bedisappointed and surprised,
maybe an equal measure aboutwhat kind of things happen.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I think this falls into thatcategory of that unpaid work
that we, as consultants need todo to get the work.
And it sounds like whatever youdo to increase your brand
awareness or boost yourreputation, you have to be
passionate about it becauseultimately it's not going to be
an instantaneous reward.

(01:08:40):
Right?
There's a long tail effect to alot of the things that we put
out into the world.
All right.
So we're gonna wrap up now,which is, um, some quick fire
questions here.
So, I would love to know for theboth of you, what makes a
consultant good, top of mind.

I think it's a combination of, experience, a
willingness to be challenged andto grow and evolve.
and just a very, Groundedexpectation about what success
means and, the ebb and flow ofincome is really something, to,
to plan for and be mindful of.

Yeah, there are people that, um, those are the
people you want in the room withyou at whatever meeting you're
gonna have.
The meeting is better becausethose people are there.
they're not always consultants,but I think they're a
consultanty mindset.
and those are the people I thinkthat, They know how to step back
a little bit.
I'm not talking about the personthat just throws a bucket of

(01:09:38):
water in the whole thing, butthey can, gently facilitate and
intervene and redirect, manageup and manage down.
I like being with those peoplebecause stuff just goes better
because they see the forest andthe trees at the same time and
in a gentle way, say something.

(01:09:59):
So they help groups resolve atactical or strategic problem or
whatever.
at any level.
They just say the thing thatneeds to be said or I go, wow, I
wish I'd said that.
I'm gonna try to do that alittle bit.
and that I think is.
That's not operating aconsulting business.
I'm glad Justin mentioned ebband flow of, income.
It's a really weird thing thatyou have to get used to.

(01:10:22):
but just consultant ness orconsultant ness, the material
and the ether that I think makesthose people really great.
it's that vibe they bring into aroom and how they help everybody
move further

I love that.
Yeah.
And then fill in the blank, oneof the hardest things about
consulting is

comparison, the social comparison.
yeah, I think I've been.
Plagued by that.
Certainly it's, I think it's notunique to me, other people doing
well and boasting about it onsocial media, or, having a
check-in call and someone sayingoh, I sent out nine proposals
this week.
like getting, going, getting tospiraling off when I hear those

(01:11:05):
things, I've screwed up.
It's too late.
I'm doing something wrong.
I'm no good.
Whatever is the negativeself-talk that comes from that.
'cause I do that and thensomeone, like Justin says, oh,
Steve is inspirational to me andI dismiss that very easily.
and I get upset when someonetalks about, an overwhelming

(01:11:28):
level of success.
one of the things that's helpedme through the downturn in
consulting in UX and researchand that we've talked about
before is it's clearly affectingeverybody.
And when I can just say tomyself, it's not you, Steve,
that is really grounding for me.
And, I actually worry lessbecause it's not me.

(01:11:51):
but when I see other peoplesucceeding, sorry to turn this
into a therapy moment,everybody.
but when I start doing thatcomparison thing, then I have a
lot of negative self-talk andit's been, yeah, I can go back
to any point in my consultingcareer and like identify.
So regardless of my own success,I can identify how vulnerable I

(01:12:13):
have been to negative self-talkaround comparison.

It's beautiful that you can share that and you are
definitely not alone.
And I can echo that same feelingof like, ugh, when somebody's
boasting about all this workthat they have and it does put
you into that spiral.
So I completely relate.
And Justin, how about you?
One of the hardest things aboutconsulting is,

Yeah, I think Steve's answer was spot on.
And I would just say, findingthe one consistent client, and
that could be, it's maybe notthe dream client.
It's maybe not, a hundredpercent exactly what you wanna
be doing, but it's the one whereyou can just rebook, renew year
over year.
It's the one that puts food onthe table.
It's the one that pays thebills.
I've known other consultants,who have sustained years of

(01:13:02):
practice on that, and heck,I've, and I'm sure I'm not alone
here, I've known entirebusinesses that have been built
around just having an insomeplace.
And, they've gotten retainerssigned over and over again, or
they've, secured business inanother capacity.
It's just that one that takesthe anxiety off, the one that
cuts the need to have toconstantly be chasing and, gives

(01:13:22):
you a little more freedom tochase things that might be a
little more aspirational thatyou might wanna work on.
and just take that anxiety off.
So I would say that finding theone.
Consistent client that, uh, youknow, is a safe renew that you
can do consistent good work withand free you up to do things
that you might wanna also workon as well.

Yeah, it's nice when you can have one or two of
those.
Yeah.

Amen?
Yeah.

And the last thing, just to end it on a positive
here, what's one of the mostrewarding aspects of being a UX
consultant for the both of you?

for one, being able to, collaborate with folks
like Steve, and really becharged by what I do to be able
to take ownership, from mydecisions and, like I said,
create environments that I'mable to work within.
And by environments I can meaneverything from a zoom to going
on client's site to, just theenergy in the room and dealing
with the client.
And, I don't know.

(01:14:15):
I keep saying values aligned andthat, that means a lot to me
because I really, I, I saydesign is connection made
manifest.
And I, I mean that beyond abumper sticker or a t-shirt
slogan, I feel like it's aboutconnecting with people,
connecting with, and that canmean people by clients, by the
end users, by the folks I'mcollaborating with.
so this means a lot more to methan, being a hashtag thought

(01:14:35):
leader on social media or, justcreating great outcomes.
this is some something that, inmy DNA I'm passionate about and
it is as values aligned ashumanly possible.
So that's incredibly rewardingto be able to, to be able to
have the buck stop with me and,and more or less determine my
own fate.

Yep.

I'm really grateful for, having been part
of this community as it'schanged over 20 plus years and
to have, long-termrelationships.
Kyle, you and I met like wayback.
I don't, I'm afraid to put adate on it, but, you know, uh, I
mean, I knew you when, right.
And, um, that's, that's reallynice.

(01:15:14):
That's, you know, and, and that,that continues to grow.
all these years in Justin and Iare trying something new that is
like scary and exciting.
So to, you gotta be part of acommunity, I think, and have a
network and have theserelationships over time to keep
growing and having new thingscome your way.
and I'll say in the work itself,and I mentioned this earlier, I

(01:15:36):
think there is that point offiguring something out new, that
you're gonna bring back that Ithink is joyful.
seeing somebody else get it orstart to get it, seeing them
light up and hearing them useyour language that you've given
them.
You've gifted them some languageto describe something they
couldn't previously describe,and to see them light up and

(01:15:59):
start to start talking about howthey are gonna take action.
so you're pushing some thingsforward and then it starts to go
on its own.
that's very exciting and it'svery rewarding.
and is elusive.
I think, if the moretransactional the work is, the
more they take delivery of adocument, and prioritize a set
of things, but don't startchanging and evolving and,

(01:16:22):
acting in a way that'sempowered.
So I think it is elusivesomewhat to see that really
exciting thing happen.
But that's the dream, right?
that's why this work feelsvaluable to me and why I want to
keep doing it.

And we're so glad you are.
this has been fantastic.
Thank you so much, both of youfor joining me today for this
chat.
how can listeners follow you andstay tuned in to what you're
both doing?

You can find me in two places.
we've mentioned LinkedIn.
when you know LinkedIn, I thinkwe've mentioned it in a kind of
a plus and minus way.
But yeah, LinkedIn is a greatway to, find me and people are
welcome to connect with methere.
and my website for my ownpractice is, portable.com.
and you can read more about whatI do there.

Yeah, and for my part, LinkedIn as well, is
effective.
I'm very findable there.
my website for my agency slashconsultancy is Anomali with an i
by design.com.
And then for Steve and I, ourrespective collaborative
offering, it's Anomali bydesign.com/steve+justin.

I will include links to all of them in the show
notes.
Thank you again.
This has been awesome.
I really appreciate it.

Thank

Thank you, Kyle.
You

Thank you

All right.
Take care.

you too.

All right.
That wraps up this episode.
Thanks for joining me.
So do you have a topic or aquestion that you would like us
to explore on a future episodeof the UX consultants lounge?
Perhaps there's an anonymousconsulting story you want to
submit.
If so, click on the link in theshow notes to submit your story

(01:18:05):
or question from the podcastwebsite.
Until next time, keep thatconsultancy going.
I can't wait to have you back inthe lounge for our next episode.

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Steve Portigal and Justin Dauer - Solo, Together: How Two Independent UX Consultants are Collaborating

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Steve Portigal and Justin Dauer - Solo, Together: How Two Independent UX Consultants are Collaborating