Susan Mercer - A Former Client's Perspective - The UX Consultants Lounge

Episode Transcript
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Kyle Soucy (00:15):
Welcome to the UX consultants lounge.
I'm Kyle Soucy, founder ofUsable Interface an independent
UX research consultancy.
You can find out more about mywork and the services I offer at
my website, usableinterface.com.
I'll be your host here at thelounge where I'll be providing a

(00:35):
place for UX consultants togather, share stories, and learn
more from one another.
Today's episode is a specialone.
For the first time ever, I'veinvited a former client into the
lounge.
I know bold move, but don'tworry, we're still on good
terms.

(00:56):
My guest is Susan Mercer, and ifyou've ever wondered what
clients really think during thehiring process, this is your
episode.
Susan pulls back the curtain andshares what goes on behind the
scenes, how decisions are made,what builds trust, and yes, what

(01:16):
consultants do that break thattrust.
Susan has over 30 years ofexperience in digital tech with
a career that's taken herthrough UI design, web
production, product management,and a decade of leading UX
research teams.
She was most recently thedirector of user research at

(01:36):
Viator, a TripAdvisor company,and has also taught grad
students at Bentley, so sheknows her stuff.
And Susan has recently decidedto embark on becoming an
independent UX consultantherself, and we'll discuss why
and what that experience hasbeen like for her at the end of

(01:57):
the interview.
You'll hear more about ourhistory working together,
including a road trip that wetook together across New England
and one of the biggest diarystudies I've ever tackled.
I think it's a thoughtful andhonest conversation, and if you
are a UX consultant or someonewho hires them, I think you're

(02:19):
gonna love it.
Let's dive in.
Please enjoy Susan Mercer.
Hi Susan.
Welcome to the UX ConsultantsLounge.

Susan Mercer (02:30):
Thanks Kyle.
I'm excited to be talking to youtoday.

Kyle Soucy (02:34):
So this is, going to be interesting'cause it's the
first time I've had a client inthe lounge and I'm just so
excited to have you share yourperspective on what it's like
working with UX consultants.

I'm excited to talk about it too.
been a great journey with me sofar.
So yeah, happy to, uh, letpeople know what to expect.

Kyle Soucy (02:57):
Great.
before I dive into my list ofquestions for you, I wanted to
give everyone just a littlebackground on our history of
working together.
So we've been working together,for a while.
We've had two big projectstogether.
in 20 14, 11 years ago, we firstworked together on a research

(03:18):
study for an experience designagency based in Boston called
Mad Pow.
you were working there, at thetime as one of their lead
researchers, and I was broughton as a subcontractor to help
with the study.
And I just remember loving thisstudy because we were doing,
ethnographic interviews inpeople's homes and it involved

(03:41):
us taking a road trip togetheracross New England.
product that we were, actuallyresearching, it was a medical
device called an auto-injectorpen.
and for those that are notfamiliar, it's just, an
injection device that enablesthe user to deliver a
predetermined drug dosagethrough self injection.

(04:01):
And our study focused on peoplewho had multiple sclerosis and
rheumatoid arthritis, and we hadto interview them about how they
use this device, and I justloved it.

I loved it too.
It was great working with you,and we just learned so much, and
I was so grateful for thoseparticipants to open up their
homes and their hearts to sharetheir experiences with us to
help make things better forthem.

Kyle Soucy (04:28):
Yeah, and it was a very private sensitive topic.
it was very moving and it was ajust a great study and it was
wonderful to finally worktogether.
'cause we knew each other, youknow, we were local in the
industry.
We've seen each other at events,but we never had that
opportunity, so that wasawesome.

It was yes.

Kyle Soucy (04:45):
Then flash forward in, 2022, you were working as
the director of UX research forViator, which is a TripAdvisor
company, and you hired me as aconsultant to conduct a diary
study with Travelers.
And for me, this was by far thelargest diary study I had ever

(05:06):
worked on.
it was a, a six week diary studywith 30 participants, and at the
end of it, we ended up havingover 400 diary entries and, over
1800 snippets of coded data.
it was a lot, and I, I loved howbig and juicy that study was.

It definitely was.
And, I really needed somebody Icould trust with that study
because it was so large and soimportant to our business.
So I was really pleased to beable to work with you on that
one.

Kyle Soucy (05:40):
Oh, I was so grateful for it.
'cause it was just fascinating.
we were, talking to people whowere planning a vacation and
trying to understand, you know,what impacts their decisions,
what happens when issues comeup.
And it was interesting to talkto people as they were planning
a trip and having them submitdiary entries, some of them

(06:00):
daily, some weekly, and thendoing these wrap up interviews.
It just generated so much data.
But it was a lot of fun and I, Ijust really appreciated being,
brought in to conduct thatstudy.

the real environment and the real usage
information that you were ableto gather and bring to the table
was so valuable for us, becausefolks inside the company often
think that people come to awebsite and do everything all at
once without realizing thatthere's little snippets of

(06:31):
interaction over time

Kyle Soucy (06:34):
Right, right.
We got some diary, entries wherepeople were just, waiting during
their daughter's dance recital,like checking in on certain
things on their phone and theywould take a picture of that.
And it was just all thesein-between moments that they
were just jumping in to do sometravel planning.

Exactly.
Yep.

Kyle Soucy (06:50):
So that's really our history in a nutshell.
And now I'd like to Ask you somequestions about, what it was
like, hiring consultants, and Iwanna divide this.
So the first half is all aboutwhat UX consultants can learn
from clients, and the secondhalf will be about, what other
internal directors, managers, orleaders can learn about hiring

(07:13):
UX consultants.

Sounds like a great plan.
Let's do it.

Kyle Soucy (07:16):
Alright, so the UX consultants, can you start us
off by just explaining what theprocurement experience is like
from your side of the table?

You know, in my experience, it does depend on
the size of the company.
As you can imagine, Viator beingpart of TripAdvisor, it was
fairly mature in the procurementprocess, But the first step is
something I would do no matterwhere I am, that I would want to
get one to two quotes, fromdifferent consultants just to

(07:49):
get a rough cost estimate tostart.
This is before I've even gottenapproval for the project.
So as a consultant.
I need you to understand that,hey, this is a potential, it's
not promised yet.
And I'm always upfront in mycommunications with that.
And then I have conversationsinternally with the key

(08:12):
stakeholder that needs toapprove this.
in my case, it might have beenthe chief product officer or vp.
I may have it in a verbalconversation with them to sell.
This is why we need to do thisproject right now.
this is why my team can't do it.
Given our current priorities,and this is ballpark, what it

(08:34):
might cost, any sort of verbalconfirmation that I may get from
them.
I always follow up an email ofcourse, and then if needed, I
may also need to go talk withfinance just to say, Hey, I got
so-and-so's approval, we'regoing to be, looking into this.
I need you to hold this moneyand make sure that they're okay

(08:57):
with that.
Okay.
After that then I would, have adetailed scope discussion with a
consultant to give even moreinformation and get a more
accurate, proposal and SOW.
actually just get a proposal atthat point.
Um, if I do get that approved, Imay Talk to two different
consultants.

(09:18):
Choose one, get that final oneapproved from the executive
sponsor, get that signed off.
Then I need to work withprocurement.
And they will, um, one, makesure that finance approves it.
Two, what any sort of legalapproval we need, at, a company

(09:38):
this, you know, a largercompany.
We do need to make sure that wehave a master services agreement
signed And it's usually RMSAthat a consultant will need to
sign and agree to.
That's very oftennon-negotiable.
and then the specific work willbe defined in a statement of

(09:59):
work or SOW also, we like ourformat, for that.
And then we can do that and getthat all signed off
electronically and we're good togo.

Kyle Soucy (10:12):
I have so many questions.
So when you mentioned at firstthat you, start off by just
getting a rough estimate fromconsultants, how do you hold
that number in your head?
So it's just a ballpark, you goand you, give the heads up to,
finance, to whoever that wemight be spending roughly this
amount of money.

(10:32):
When you go back and start doingthat detailed scoping, obviously
the number will probably changea bit.
how does that affect things inyour process, if it's over that
ballpark or drastically under,how does that work?

Great question.
So first off, whatever I getfrom consultants is the ballpark
I pad.

Kyle Soucy (10:54):
Oh,

might put an additional 20% on it just to buy
me a little bit of wiggle room.

Kyle Soucy (11:00):
That's, that makes sense.
Okay.
Yeah.

Yeah.
And then when we come back witha more detailed, if it's gonna
be above that, I may ask for twooptions.
So, okay, let's take thisoriginal one with everything
that I want in it.
May I ask the consultant to say,Hey, can we get another
estimate?
Where can we, maybe my team do alittle bit more work?

(11:25):
If I can find that bandwidth,how can I help you bring that
cost down a little bit?
And then I can go to myexecutive and say, Hey, what we
really need is X, which ishigher than what I told you
before.
We can do something for Y buthere's what we're missing.

(11:45):
Here's the downsides to that.
Because executives always wannaknow, what am I gonna get?
What is it gonna cost and what'sthe cost of not doing it?
So that's where I need to beprepared to have that
conversation with them.

Kyle Soucy (12:03):
and how do you feel about revealing the budget
that's available to theconsultant when you're getting
that initial rough estimate oreven getting into the detailed
scope?

it depends if I know what the budget is,

Kyle Soucy (12:18):
oh.

because sometimes I'm just asked, Hey, go find out
what this is, what is it gonnacost us to do X?
In which case, that's where I'msourcing that information from
the consultants.
Because what I don't wanna do issay, oh, it's gonna be 25K, then
go out, talk to consultants.
No, it's really gonna cost me 50'cause then I look bad and I

(12:41):
don't wanna underpay consultantseither,

Kyle Soucy (12:45):
This?
Yeah, absolutely.
And this is really interestingbecause from the consultant
side, it feels, to be honest, italways feels like that is being
withheld from us.
Like they know, but they're notsharing.
And it's interesting to knowthat sometimes you don't know,

Yeah.
And sometimes just negotiation.
I wanna get the consultantsviewpoint first

Kyle Soucy (13:08):
Yeah.

and see what's included.
And if it comes under what I wasthinking, then, oh, you know
what, maybe we can bump that upa little bit more, and go from
there.

Kyle Soucy (13:18):
And, what do you mean by that?
Bump that up?
include more, do more with

more work, do more with the project.
And frankly, when I work inhouse, I don't always keep up
with what common consultingrates are.
I remember when I engaged you,you said there was 2022.
I hadn't worked in consultingfor, gosh, about six, seven

(13:42):
years and prices increase overthat timeframe.
and because I've worked on bothsides of the house, I wanna be
fair to my consultants.
I know what it's like being onthat side.

Kyle Soucy (13:54):
It's so refreshing.
I and you mentioned too thatyou, typically you'll get two
bids.
Is that something that you liketo do?
It was that dictated by Viatorthat you have to get at least
two.

A little bit of both.
I don't recall if they dictatedit.
I know some companies do.
sometimes they need to go up tothree, but having two gives me
the ability to make thatdecision of what I see as
quality, what I see as needed,versus, money investment.

(14:30):
Also to just sanity check tomake sure I didn't happen to
talk to one consultant that'soverpriced or underpriced.

Kyle Soucy (14:37):
Yeah.

and that way as well when I go back to get
approval or talk with finance,if they start bringing up, or
particularly procurement, willbring up questions as well.
how do we know that this wasnegotiated well?
Well, I have two or sometimesthree if they mandated proposals
and then I'm able to justifythat price a little bit better.

Kyle Soucy (15:00):
So when you have, two or three proposals or bids,
do you have to present that andif you do, to procurement or
someone else?
Who ultimately gets to make thatfinal call, that decision

It's usually with me as the director, as the
person hiring it.
I generally don't disclose thedetails of any of the proposals.
I may say, Hey, I chose thisone.
yes, it's the most expensive,but the delta is only 5K to the
cheapest.
This is somebody that I feelwill do the job best.

(15:38):
if it's a 25K difference, then Imight need to, get somebody else
involved

Kyle Soucy (15:44):
And who

to give you a ballpark.

Kyle Soucy (15:47):
oh, okay.
All right.
When you say someone else, youmean another bid, or you mean
someone on the internal side?

Oh, somebody on the internal side.
I might escalate to my manageror the executive to have that
discussion with them to discussthe pros and cons.

Kyle Soucy (16:02):
Gotcha.
Okay.
And so since you're the maindecision maker, when it comes to
approving, an a proposal andchoosing a consultant.
For you, what would you saytends to influence you the most?
Is it cost, the proposedstrategy, reputation, something
else...

all of the above I generally only talk to, or
approach consultants I know orhave heard of, particularly
freelancers that have a strongreputation.
price will come into it, butI'm, I care more about what am I
gonna get delivered?
Do I feel that the quality ofthe deliverable is gonna be

(16:44):
helpful to the business and tomy team?
Do I feel that the timeline isappropriate?
Do I feel that they've estimatedthings correctly?
Because I care about qualitydeliverables on time for a
reasonable cost.

Kyle Soucy (17:00):
And with the MSA, you said that's really
non-negotiable, at least in, inthe experience that you had
with, um, the companies you'vebeen at.
can you talk about that a littlebit more?
Is there ever typically thingsyou get pushback on or what
tends to be the red lines there?

really with hiring consultants, I haven't ever had
any red lines for that.
where I get the red lines iswhen I'm working with tool
vendors and large corporations,because there's a lot of clauses
there for them around, datauptime, data security, things

(17:41):
like that.
That's where they get theirlawyers involved.
In general, it's very rare thatour legal team will adjust an
MSA and if it, if they do, ifthey insist on a custom MSA,
that's a fair bit of timeinvestment with our legal team
as well.

Kyle Soucy (18:00):
And is that a turnoff for you when that has to
happen?

Absolutely.
I love the lawyers I've workedwith, but it extends the time.
There's a lot of back and forththat I'm always involved in the
middle person communication asthe in-between, and it just
takes time out of my day.
And most of the time I don'tthink there's a need for it for

(18:26):
freelance research consultants.

Kyle Soucy (18:29):
Yeah, luckily from what I recall, the MSA for
Viator, there was nothing that Ineeded to push back on.
Everything seemed good.
Usually, for consultants, theone thing that I hear most of us
have issues with is when we'regoing to get paid.
Some times it's something crazy,like net 90 days after the final

(18:49):
invoice, which most peoplecannot swing when they're
independent.
but having something morereasonable, like 30 days is
definitely doable.
And that's usually a point ofnegotiation.
But I think I remember it beingreasonable with Viator.

Yeah, and that's also something we might be able
to do in an SOW as well.

Kyle Soucy (19:08):
Oh yeah.
Yep.
And.
I'm wondering too, during thisprocurement process from the
consultant side, things can tendto sometimes go quiet, and I was
wondering, is there anythingconsultants can do to support
you during it or to make it gomore smoothly?

Good question.
I think, keeping the lines ofcommunication open is always
good.
Just saying, Hey, wonderingwhere things are, is there
anything I can do to help?
Or any clarification you need,all of that is useful.
I tend to be pretty transparenton that front.
Say, you know, Hey, my meetinggot postponed, that happens.

(19:51):
I need to do the following.
So and so is on vacation thisweek.
so I'm willing to provide thatkind of timeline feedback and if
there is any clarification Ineed, I reach out pretty
quickly.

Kyle Soucy (20:05):
You mentioned, it sounds like you have to really
do a lot of selling, um,sometimes where there's a cost
difference or something, or thecost of not doing something.
do you like to have anythingprovided from the consultant
that helps you to make thatargument?

good question.
I'm hesitating for a second.
Um, I think that could help incertain situations.
but usually I know why I needthis study so I know how and
what the cost of not doing it isgoing to be.
because I understand theinternals and the projects and
what could go wrong on theprojects if we don't do the

(20:42):
proper research.
but yeah, I'd definitely be opento conversations with
consultants on that cause peopleoften find a different
perspective than I may haveforgotten.

Kyle Soucy (20:54):
And what do you look for when hiring a UX consultant?
what makes a candidate stand outto you?

definitely experience, definitely
curiosity.
I really like hearing a lot ofquestions from the consultants
in that first call where we'rejust saying, Hey, let's talk.
I have a potential project.
Here's what I'm thinking andwhy.
But having that conversationback and forth, asking for

(21:25):
further clarification, um,rather than making assumptions.
I don't like when the first callI have with a consultant is all
sell, sell, sell.
I'm looking for a thoughtpartner.

Kyle Soucy (21:38):
I love that.

No, I, we've got, we've got a challenge or a
problem to solve.
How can we do it together?
I think setting that tonehappens in that first scoping
call.

Kyle Soucy (21:50):
And is that different when it's, um, when
you're tapping people you knowversus don't know?

yeah.
I think if people that I don'tknow, well, um, I need a little
bit more of that to see theirthought process, to be able to
understand how much are theygonna question, how curious are
they?
Because as you know, uh, one ofthe core skills for user
researchers is curiosity andprobing and problem solving and

(22:19):
problem identification.
I wanna be able to get thatfeeling from that consultant
that they're gonna engage andreally help me think through as
a thought partner.
As I said,

Kyle Soucy (22:31):
and how do you find UX consultants to actually have
that initial conversation with?

Great question.
I'm fortunate enough to haveworked in the research field for
a long time, so I have a goodnetwork.
I start with LinkedIn, who do Iknow that's consulting right
now?
What are their areas ofexpertise?
and I reach out to themsometimes They say, Hey, I'm
busy right now.

(22:59):
Who can you recommend?
And if I get a recommendationfrom somebody that I know and
trust, I'm likely to transfersome of that trust to that
recommendation person, stillwanna see them prove it to me,
but I'm more likely to trustthem than a cold, email or a
called LinkedIn message.

Kyle Soucy (23:21):
I can totally see that trust is, is just
everything.
It's so important when you'reengaging in something, that
really requires the rightperson.
And I wanna talk about that alittle bit more.
when you talk about, trust, whatactions build trust during a
project and what can erode it?

Good questions.
I think building trust during aproject, um, you know, one is
the consistent communication.
knowing what's going on on aweekly basis.
being timely with requests forinformation or feedback.

(24:02):
Um, I'd rather have some overcommunication than under
communication.
That way I know what's going on,and on time or frankly, early
delivery, you know, we're alwayspleased with early.
and any warnings of scheduledelays, sometimes recruiting
takes longer than we'd planned.
I know that I've been doing thisfor years, but that early

(24:25):
warning about it can help me setexpectations for folks
internally as well.
and in terms of eroding trust, Ithink not doing any of those
things or misunderstandings thatgo on too long, I have had a
couple situations where I'vecommunicated something and then

(24:49):
I hear back the next step, andthat hasn't been taken into
account that'll erode trust.
I think with stakeholdersdirectly without myself or a one
of my team members present,until I say you can, would be

(25:10):
another thing

Kyle Soucy (25:12):
Yeah,

would erode trust for me.
just because I wanna make sure Iunderstand.
How to communicate with thosestakeholders and be able to
manage any misunderstandings ormis knowledge, or context.
and obviously any clientconfidentiality breaches just

(25:33):
are no, go for me.

Kyle Soucy (25:36):
definite and makes you look bad.
Yeah.

Exactly.

Kyle Soucy (25:40):
So communication definitely seems to be the theme
here.
And I was wondering when, I'msure it varies from project to
project, but do you have, anideal amount of times you like
to check in with consultantsonce you've brought them on
board?
Is it weekly or twice a week?

it depends on the consultant and if I've worked
with them before.
If it's somebody that I fullytrust and have worked with in
the past, weekly might be fine,unless it's a very fast project,
in which case maybe biweekly isbetter.
so that's something I'm open todiscussing when we kick off the
project.

(26:22):
if it's somebody that I'm newworking with, I want a little
bit more frequent updates justto make sure if they're making
any assumptions and going alittle bit off track that I can
minimize the amount of timebefore it gets corrected.
And one of the techniques I liketo do when I can is to, you

(26:42):
know, particularly as adirector, I was very busy.
As you can imagine.
But, if you'll recall in when wedid the diary study, I had one
of my lead team members workingwith you more directly, and that
way she was able to handle a lotof that more frequent
communication, providing thecontext, providing past

(27:02):
learnings that we already knew,and all of that kind of
information without taking up mytime as a director.
So that enabled me to be fullytrustworthy of a weekly
communication.

Kyle Soucy (27:16):
I see.
Yeah, and that worked out reallywell.
I liked having that pairingwhere I was just paired with
someone on your team.

I saw that worked really well, and that's
something I plan to, you know,would love to do in the future
if that need comes up again.

Kyle Soucy (27:29):
Yeah, I was curious, when you hired me, how did your
team respond to bringing in a UXconsultant?

That's a great question too.
the team was very busy onstrategic stuff already, and we
just didn't have the bandwidthfor this.
But we were very excited aboutgetting a diary study.
So they responded very well.
they saw the need for the diarystudy.
They knew how much time it wouldtake.

(27:59):
I had them embedded with theirown teams, uh, product teams,
and they were very busy withthose product and design teams.
So they understood the need tobring somebody else in And there
wasn't any resentment on thisone.
I think this time it was just,Hey, I wanna know what's, what's
going on, what's she doing?
This sounds fun.
Um, I wish I could do it.

(28:20):
But they understood therationale.

Kyle Soucy (28:23):
Yeah, that's what I was wondering.
Yeah.
Because it was such a coolproject.

Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (28:29):
And I was wondering too, going back when you were
talking about proposals and,them being like the SOW has to
be in, in your format.
When consultants send proposals,do you prefer a certain format?
whether it's word docs orslides?

I do prefer word docs for proposals.
I think that gives a bit moreroom to be fully descriptive of
the services, and detail out allthe deliverables, the pricing,
et cetera.
I rarely need to present that toanyone If, one of my.

(29:08):
Approvers wanted to see it.
I can just screen share thedocument and scroll through it,
and that's fine.
and I don't, I think for mostproposals for research, there
isn't a need for huge visualslike a presentation would
provide.

Kyle Soucy (29:23):
Okay, and what about the length of the proposal?

I tend to think about two, maybe three pages,
unless it's a very large study.
usually the types of things I'lloutsource are small enough that
it should be able to fit inthree-ish pages.
Four maybe for a big one, but Idon't need a novel.

Kyle Soucy (29:49):
That's good to know.
Okay.
And is there anything you lookfor first when you open a
proposal?
do you go right to the price or,

I tend, I think because I'm a researcher at
heart, I tend to look at, what'sthe methodology?
Yeah, there's the background,the fluff, all of that good
stuff.
Setting the context.
Yeah, I get it.
But, okay, what's yourunderstanding of my problem or
my challenge that I'm trying toface in the context?

(30:21):
And then what's the proposal forthe method and why?
And then I tend to look at thetimeline and then I look at the
price.

Kyle Soucy (30:29):
that's, it's really helpful just to have that kind
of, you know, I appreciate youbeing candid about how you look
at it.
'cause we always wonder, what,what does matter the most to you
in a proposal and what do youlook for first?
So that's great to know.

Sometimes I look at the price, but without the
context of do you understand thechallenge and how do you wanna
address it, and how are youbreaking that down the price
doesn't really make sense.

Kyle Soucy (30:58):
Right.
Right.
That's good to hear that'srealized.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (31:03):
And what makes a consultant's pricing feel
justified and worthwhile to you?

I think a lot of it comes with experience and
case studies and, knowledge ofdifferent research methods, how
well they've understood theproblem and discussed how they,
justify the approach.
All of that comes into play forme.

(31:31):
if those tend to be weak and theprice is very high, that's when
I'm a little skeptical.

Kyle Soucy (31:38):
you mentioned case studies and I was wondering is
that something that you preferto have the consultant, verbally
discuss or do you want thatincluded in the proposal or
maybe a link to it in anotherconversation?

I tend to like that in a conversation or a
follow-up email if you've gotsome case studies that are
public or wanna talk about somethat aren't as public.
Um, just that helps me buildthat trust with that particular
consultant.
If you've done a project similarto what I'm looking for, that

(32:15):
just makes it even more valuableto me.
and I understand you can'talways share the details of that
or outcomes, all of that, oreven the client, but being able
to discuss that in aconversation is helpful to me

Kyle Soucy (32:30):
Okay.
And what do you wish moreconsultants understood about the
selection process?

that it can take a little bit of time

Kyle Soucy (32:40):
yeah.

and, the fact that I do need to often get multiple
quotes, and that I might notselect you this time, but that
doesn't mean I won't next time.
and yeah, that, that fullprocess to get the final check
mark, go ahead and spend thismoney, can take some time, can
be delayed due to vacations orsomebody's too busy.

(33:05):
And I do, think consultantsshould know that I value people
asking me questions in thatscoping call to better
understand what my needs are andwhat my context and situation
is.
Because the more you understand,the better you're gonna be able
to propose the right thing, theright approach

Kyle Soucy (33:26):
Absolutely.
I loved how you mentioned beforethat you don't, you want minimal
selling during that

Yeah.
Minimal selling.
Build my confidence in you.
but don't come across as a, youknow, a salesperson.
I know you're selling, but Iwant you to be confident in
describing yourself and yourabilities.

Kyle Soucy (33:46):
Can you describe what your turnoffs are like when
you hear selling?
What does that sound like toyou?

Oh, I've done this for so and so and so and so, and
I've done this, and I've donethat, and oh, I've got the
perfect solution for you.
How do you know it's a perfectsolution if you haven't really
understood my challenge and whatI need?
Those sorts of things tend toturn me off.
Too much of the, um, notenthusiasm, but all of those

(34:16):
perfect words, makes me think ofa car salesman.

Kyle Soucy (34:21):
Absolutely, and that's the worst.
nobody wants to be the icky carsalesman.
hopefully.
Hopefully they don't.
Yeah, and I love how youmentioned confidence that you
want to see some of that, andthat's a fine line, right?
what does confidence look liketo you versus coming on too
strong?

Good question.
I think, well, getting back toyour last question, I think
another thing that turns me offis when consultants come to the
conversation to tell meeverything they can do, and you
should hire me because I'm goodat this, I'm good at this.
I've done this, I've done thatbefore they even understand what

(35:01):
I'm looking for.
So I like that consultative sellAnd then being confident to come
back and ask questions, well,tell me more about, about what
you're looking for.
Why is this the challenge you'refacing right now?
Why is this the problem tosolve?
What are you gonna do with thisinformation?

(35:22):
How is this gonna help you inthe business?
To me, that demonstratesconfidence that you're willing
to challenge me appropriatelyand respectfully.

Kyle Soucy (35:33):
there's something interesting here.
so I love that we're having thisconversation because there's no
pressure of a job here.
Like I can kind of lay it allout there for you, What I worry
about as a consultant that'spitching, or just having a
discussion, you know, about aproject.
a lot of times we talk about howin our proposals, we suggest

(35:54):
strategies, we propose, somemethodologies and you can take
that and shop that around.
and that's part of the, whatyou're purchasing really is just
how would we go about this?
What's the strategy we wouldchoose?
And we can come up withsomething that's really great
that works within your budgetand ultimately for whatever

(36:15):
reason, you're not gonna chooseus.
And it's always a bummer.
It's oh man, they got some goodstrategy for nothing.
And I, we kind of accept that,that's just what sometimes how
it works.
But sometimes it's oh man, Iknow they're shopping this
around.
Or you don't know how much youshould reveal.
but you also wanna make surethat you ask those right

(36:35):
questions that you care aboutand say, have you thought about
this?
Perhaps this is a betterapproach, without giving away
too much, I don't know what yourreaction is to that.

I hadn't thought about it from that perspective.
but I'll tell you as aresearcher turned director, I
would appreciate that, you know,I know you're asking for this.
Have you thought about why?

Kyle Soucy (36:57):
Mm-hmm.

This other thing and I may have, and I may come
back with, yeah, we thoughtabout that, but because of this
other information that I hadn'tshared yet that might not be
right.
Or I'm perfectly willing to say,oh, that's an interesting
perspective.
And then I might come back andask, could you give me two

(37:21):
proposals for each and see howthat turns out?
Or why don't you think throughthat and we can have another
call before you write officialproposal.
Something like that.

Kyle Soucy (37:31):
Yeah.

that's just me.
I'm open to being questioned andchallenged.
I don't think every client willlikely be in that boat though.

Kyle Soucy (37:40):
But no, that's something I definitely
appreciated working together.

Yeah.

Kyle Soucy (37:44):
for the diary study that you hired me to conduct,
the scope was so large that Ineeded to bring on another
independent researcher as asubcontractor.
And I'll give a quick shout out,to Anna Kopp, who was wonderful.
Her company is Blue Umbrella andshe's based in Toronto.
So if anyone needs a greatresearcher, she's amazing.

(38:06):
but from your perspective, howdid that feel, as the client?
Was there anything you needed toknow or understand about the
subcontractor to feel confidentin this, setup?

I think because we had a history of a good
relationship, I fully trustedyour judgment.
If this was my first timeworking with you, I probably
would've wanted a call with Annaas well.

Kyle Soucy (38:33):
Okay.
Yeah,

just to make sure, just a sanity check.
Um.
Yeah, it worked out great.
The two of you did a fantasticjob.

Kyle Soucy (38:45):
yeah, I'm always curious about that.
the idea that this is, somebodyelse, another independent
consultant that is, working onmy project, is any of that
confusing for the clientperspective?
Is it understood that this is,someone who's not technically an
employee?

from my standpoint, I completely
understood it.
I think because I had thathistory of working at Mad Pow at
the design agency where we wouldsubontract folks as we needed
it.
I knew that was clear and Ibelieve you.
You communicated it well too asI recall.
So I think just being upfront,and saying, Hey, happy to do it

(39:27):
under one umbrella.
I've worked with this personbefore, but she's not an
employee of mine.
I think is perfectly fine.

Kyle Soucy (39:35):
Alright, so before we switch over to more of the
questions that would probablybenefit, people that would hire
consultants, I'm curious, fromyour perspective, how do you
view the job of the consultant?

I'm hiring you to do some work, so I need you to
gain my confidence in youupfront as we've been talking
about, and I need you to deliverthe agreed upon work.
and while you're doing that,communicate frequently, because
we have our specific businesscontext and we have related past

(40:11):
research insights that I wannamake sure that you get and can
take advantage of.
I always want to reviewdeliverables from consultants,
particularly with that lens.
How is this gonna land with ourstakeholders related to
everything that's going on froma business and a strategy

(40:32):
perspective, as well as how it,may resonate with or contradict
past research.
And if there's contradictions, Ineed to be able to explain that
myself.
And as I mentioned earlier, justcommunicating progress and
escalating issues is needed.
But I think the real job you'redoing that often goes unspoken,

(40:57):
is to make me and my team lookgood to my boss, to our
stakeholders as part of that, Ineed you to deliver the honest
and objective truth to me and myteam as appropriate, and let us
determine how to message andcommunicate those issues to
stakeholders.
Because at the end of the day,if somebody undercuts us and

(41:19):
says something to a stakeholder,we don't look so good.

Kyle Soucy (41:23):
right.

come through us, let us figure out how to message
and communicate.
There may be some stakeholders,I'm okay letting you talk to
directly, but otherwise I maywanna be present in that
conversation or have my teammember present.

Kyle Soucy (41:39):
This is super interesting because I hear from
a lot of different consultantsthat, we, we are really brought
on, to reveal the truthsometimes the ugly truth, that
it's hard for internal, peopleto reveal.
and it's our job as hard as itis to sometimes have those tough
conversations.
And how do you feel consultantsshould handle tough findings or

(42:03):
sensitive feedback?
what's that right balancebetween honesty and diplomacy?

That's a good question.
And what I always did when I wasa consultant is.
First off, I got the bestcompliment I've ever received
from a coworker who said, youcan tell a client that their
baby is ugly and get away withit.
Because what I do is I say, Hey,here's objectively, here's what

(42:32):
we're seeing.
Start with the positive.
Then move to the not so good.
this is the reality, and when itcomes to the recommendations,
this is how we can make itbetter.
That's always been my formula,being objective, letting the
data, the quotes, the videos,speak for themselves, and then

(42:55):
closing with, here's ourrecommended path forward to
improve this.
And that has done me well, bothas a consultant and internally,
to be able to deliver bad newsto the business.
Because at the end of the day,we do need to hear that bad
news.
cause how else are we gonna getbetter?

Kyle Soucy (43:16):
And when you talked about reviewing the
deliverables, so possibly thatbad news could be in that final
report that has to get shared.
what is your ideal reviewprocess?
is it hands-on feedback or morehigh level checkpoints?

I like the high level checkpoints.
as soon as you're seeing the badnews, let's chat so I can figure
out, okay, how do we want toposition this?
when you've got a draftdeliverable, as soon as you're
comfortable having me look atit, the sooner we can make
adjustments as needed.

(43:50):
And then obviously just thefinal, just a sanity check, but
I don't wanna leave the bigstuff to that final review
because by then we usually havea stakeholders, meeting
scheduled.
And I don't wanna leave toolittle time to figure out how to
address it before thatpresentation or meeting or

(44:11):
whatever.

Kyle Soucy (44:12):
you don't wanna be learning these insights for the
first time with the stakeholdersin that presentation.

or the night before?
No.

Kyle Soucy (44:20):
Yeah.
Yep.
Makes sense.
so now for, you know, themanagers directors out there
that, that might be hiringfolks, how do you ensure
consultants are set up forsuccess after they're hired?

Yeah, definitely what we talked about earlier,
about pairing them with someoneon my team or, if I had the
bandwidth planning to work withthem closely.
really making sure that theconsultant has a full
understanding of the businesscontext, past research
stakeholder needs, anyexpectations you have for them,

(44:58):
ensure that the consultant getstheir questions, answers more
quickly.
then I may be able to, which iswhy I often involve that team
member, and make sure that myteam member is closer to the
research as well, so that theycan understand the details
enough to know how to use it andanswer questions after the

(45:20):
engagement.
That's important too.
Because we can't just takesomething and drop it.
We have to carry it forward.
So the better we understand it,the more successful the end
result will be.

Kyle Soucy (45:34):
Right now you mentioned, the internal person
that you assign to theconsultant.
What qualities do you look forin that person that you select?
Are they more of a peer, acoordinator, a domain expert?

Oh, I think somebody that can do all of
those.
somebody that understands thebusiness enough.
So I had somebody, who workedwith you, who had been with me
for four years.
I wouldn't have assignedsomebody brand new to the
business.
but she knew the businesscontext, she knew the problem
space that you were addressing.

(46:07):
So that really helped.
She could provide you therelevant information and then be
that sanity check of, okay, howis this sitting with what we
know?
Is it filling in the blanks?
What contradictions are there,if any, how do we navigate that
if there are contradictions?

(46:29):
and she was senior enough to beable to, just trust you as well
and not have to dive in and beinvolved all the time.

Kyle Soucy (46:38):
Internal politics is something that, that we
typically are spared from, youknow, uh, but I would imagine
others who are thinking ofbringing consultants on might be
curious to know when you tagsomeone on your team to, to do
this, to pair with a consultantand, answer their questions or
whatever.
Is it typically looked at as,okay, you're adding to my list

(46:59):
of responsibilities.
is there an issue there or is itmore, have you found that most
are just willing and excited tobe a part of that?

I always talk with them and say, Hey, I'd like you
to do this.
What kind of time commitment doyou think it's gonna take?
How does that work with yourcurrent workload?
Do I need to shuffle some ofyour priorities?
Do you have the bandwidth to dothis or not?
and sometimes I may have acouple of possibilities of my

(47:31):
internal team members.
One may be swamped and can't doit, so maybe I go for the other
one.
or figure out, you know, use myability as a director to
reshuffle what they're workingon.
Can we maybe transfer somethingthat's a little bit, more
defined to somebody more juniorfor you to mentor as well to

(47:52):
give you time to work with theconsultant?

Kyle Soucy (47:54):
I think it's really wise that to pair someone, with
the consultant as you mentioned,so that the work is not lost
after the consultant leaves.
'cause there's nothing worsethan that.
and is there anything else youwould recommend to other UX
managers to ensure internalteams can just run with the
findings once the consultantsteps away?

Yeah, just getting that biggest knowledge and then
advocating with it like we dowith all of our research, making
sure we're sharing it with theright stakeholders, making sure
it goes into our repository,that it's findable, that anyone
can access it.
And one of the things we alwaysput in our repository is who to
contact.

(48:37):
So yes, this is an externalconsultant deliverable, but hey,
go ask so and so for thequestions on this one.

Kyle Soucy (48:45):
And have you found any shortcuts or artifacts that
are especially helpful forramping up a consultant quickly?

I think one of the things we started doing, late in
my tenure at Viator, because wehad a lot of disparate research
and we didn't have a strongrepository at the time, we
created some short insightdocuments.
About particular topics.
For example, we got reviews onall of our travel experiences,

(49:16):
and you can imagine reviews areimportant to people booking an
experience.
So what we did is we justcreated a couple of page Google
Doc that had the summary of,Hey, here's all the studies
where we got insights aboutreviews, here's some of the
findings, the links, the highlevel.

(49:36):
And to summarize that kind ofdocument about everything we
know about this, is very usefulto provide to a consultant if
you have something like that.

Kyle Soucy (49:48):
I imagine AI might be possibly helpful in that
regard, assuming it's notincorrect and that's not
hallucinating.

Yeah, I think if we had a research repository or
an AI tool at the time, thatwould've made it a lot easier to
do.
Um, my recommendation with AIwhenever you're having it do
summaries, is to make sure itcite its sources

Kyle Soucy (50:14):
Yep.

so you can go back and make sure Yes, that's
correct if you need to.

Kyle Soucy (50:19):
And what would you say are some lessons learned
from hiring outside help?
Is there anything you would dodifferently now?

I think more collaboration, um, as we've
talked about between theinternal team and the
consultant, as well as betweenthe consultant and internal
stakeholders.
I think getting the stakeholdersinvolved a little bit more with
the consultant would give theconsultant some of that context

(50:49):
they need directly as well asallowing the stakeholders to
understand that this source,this consultant coming to us and
doing research for us istrustworthy.
And just getting that trustestablished there, that they can
transfer the trust they put inour team to this particular

(51:10):
consultant.
and I think also it just helpsthem better understand, The
process and the deliverables sothey can take it forward and use
it in their work better.
For example, with the diarystudy we did we did have to
educate our stakeholders alittle bit more on what is a
diary study and why is thisimportant and how do you use

(51:32):
this information?
Because for many of them, it wastheir first time encountering a
diary study.
And I think over my years ofworking in leadership, I've
realized that for research,oftentimes workshops are better
than written reports.
So these days I would be evenopen to conducting a workshop

(51:56):
with stakeholders.
Here's some of the data, youknow, bring in the most useful
data points.
How would you organize it?
What are the insights that areimportant to you and why, to
help us pull that together.

Kyle Soucy (52:09):
Can you say more about that?
So what do you think hits betterwith a workshop versus the
report?

I think getting the product managers are the key
stakeholders for this.
Getting them to engage in theactual data and understanding
what we're learning.
Maybe not everything because wedid such a large diary study,
but the key insights with a fewspecific quotes or video clips.

(52:38):
I think the more that they canengage with that, the more they
understand it, and the more theyactually take it on board, and
actually think about how theycan leverage it.
Granted, it isn't always easy toget workshops scheduled,
particularly in a large, fastmoving organization.

Kyle Soucy (52:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I agree definitely thatworkshops are so much more
actionable at times.
Or you can see the data playwith it a little bit.
Are there any specific workshopformats or activities you've
seen work especially well?

I immediately go to white boarding on Miro or
whatever tool you have, to have,quotes or images or even video
clips you can do these days,short, cut to just one
particular point.
and yeah, showing that andallowing them to sticky, noted

(53:36):
affinity, map it, all of that.

Kyle Soucy (53:39):
Okay.
And to put a, a, a bow on thissection of the interview, what
advice would you give to anotherUX leader who is hesitant about
allocating budget to aconsultant?

yeah, I think at the right times, bringing
consultants in can be verybeneficial.
And what I consider those righttimes are when you have way too
much important strategic workthat your team can get done well
in the time allowed.
but being mindful as to how toaugment, I really do as I

(54:16):
mentioned, love that pairingwith a team member who knows the
domain.
I think that will give you a lotof success and maybe try
smaller.
If you haven't done outsourcingbefore, start with a smaller,
non-complicated, well-definedstudy as your first one, so that
you can.
Maybe save the more complexstuff for your team.

(54:39):
Get a consultant to do ausability study or a card
sorting study that's a littlebit more defined that you can
practice working with anexternal consultant yourself and
see what, how you like thatprocess and what you can learn
from that process before divinginto a big diary study like we

(55:01):
did together.

Kyle Soucy (55:01):
Yeah.
Now this is interesting'causethis brings up another question
I have.
So from the client side, you'vegot an abundance of, KPIs or
something else that you'retrying to hit.
You've got a lot of initiatives,only so much staff and you wanna
augment that.
How do you know when this is theideal point to bring someone in

(55:22):
for temporary help versus addingto the fixed cost of your team?
and at what point do you say,okay, consultant's great, but we
could use this extra help allthe time.

Yeah.
A lot of it depends on how youknow, well, what, first off,
just the context.
What's the financial contextright now?
Is this even feasible for me tobe able to get a head count?
Oftentimes I need to justifythat, what are you gonna get for
this head count?

(55:54):
And I may not be able to justifya full-time headcount because
there's a lot of overhead withfull-time.
So do I think this extra demandis likely to be long-term?
oh, they just added three newproduct managers to who I need
to support.
I am likely gonna need a new FTEfor long term?

(56:17):
Or is it, hey, this is just peakseason for research because
we're gearing up to start,really pushing forward on a few
strategic initiatives.
We just need to get all theresearch done.
Now, the strategic research donein the next three to six months,
but the rest of the year isgonna be a little slower, then

(56:39):
that's a better time to bring ina consultant.

Kyle Soucy (56:42):
I see.
All right, before we wrap up, Iknow you're now making the leap
into independent UX consultingand I wonder if you could just
fill us in a little bit aboutthat.
What inspired that decision?

As I've mentioned before, I have spent half of my
career in consulting.
And I decided now's the time forme to venture out.
so I'm starting PerspectaConsulting, really helping co
helping companies understandtheir products and customers
from multiple perspectives andplotting the best path forward

(57:18):
for them.
So really helping them withresearch and strategy.
and specifically I've learned somuch about some of these AI
tools out here now,understanding what they're good
at and where they still needhuman assistance.
So educating with that.
helping teams select the righttools in adjusting their

(57:38):
processes in the right way, orif they've been asked to do an
AI project so many AI projectsare not.
Meeting their potential andquote, failing.
a lot of the companies outthere, HBR, and Wall Street
Journal are predicting between,I think it's 50 to 85% of these

(57:59):
AI product projects are failing.
So how can we work togetherearly in this stage to figure
out what's the best matchbetween AI capabilities and user
needs so that we can end uphelping you build something that
has a much higher likelihood ofbeing very successful for both

(58:20):
the users and the business.

Kyle Soucy (58:22):
And has anything surprised you so far in the
process of setting up yourbusiness, naming it, branding

it's been harder than I thought it would be, but
I'm also very fortunate.
I have a large network of folkswho have been providing me with
good advice.
So I'm at the stage in my lifewhere I'm listening to all the
advice and figuring out whatmakes sense for me.
I now have that wisdom to knowwhat value I bring to what kind

(58:52):
of company for what kind oftasks, and I'm excited to focus
on that.

Kyle Soucy (58:58):
I'm excited for you.
It sounds great.
And I'm wondering, how has yourexperience as someone who's
hired consultants, shaped howyou are approaching becoming one
yourself?

Oh, great question.
I think, really when it comes tothe sales process, I'm a
consultative seller, you know,Hey, what are you facing?
What's going on with you?
What's keeping you up at night?
I.
what do you need help with?
What don't you know?
you know what?
I can help you with some ofthis, and I'm a big helper.

(59:32):
That's the way I like to viewthe world.
I like to help people and if Idon't know how to help you, but
I understand your problem, I mayknow people in my network I can
recommend that you talk to,

Kyle Soucy (59:45):
Mm-hmm.

and I just feel like if you give to the
universe, the universe givesback to you

Kyle Soucy (59:52):
Oh, definitely.
Definitely.
I think this is fantastic.
I think it would be very fullcircle of our relationship if we
actually end up working togetheragain, but as independent
consultants this time,

Susan Mercer (01:00:04):
I like that idea.

Kyle Soucy (01:00:05):
Yeah.
we'll have to make that happen.
for the listeners, where canpeople find you and learn more
about your new business

Yeah, I'm still setting everything up, so the
best way right now is to find meon LinkedIn.
I'm Susan A.
Mercer on LinkedIn.

I'll be sure to include that link in the show
notes.
And Susan, thank you so much forjoining me today.
It was just incredibly valuableto hear your perspective, not
just as someone who's hired UXConsultants, but now as someone
stepping into that roleyourself.
And I know our listeners,whether they're consultants or

(01:00:42):
UX leaders, are going to take alot away from this in what
you've shared.

Great.
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been a, a really funconversation.

Oh, so happy come back anytime and just thank you
so much for being part of the UXConsultants lounge.

Thank you.

All right.
That wraps up this episode.
Thanks for joining me.
So do you have a topic or aquestion that you would like us
to explore on a future episodeof the UX consultants lounge?
Perhaps there's an anonymousconsulting story you want to
submit.
If so, click on the link in theshow notes to submit your story

(01:01:22):
or question from the podcastwebsite.
Until next time, keep thatconsultancy going.
I can't wait to have you back inthe lounge for our next episode.

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Susan Mercer - A Former Client's Perspective

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Susan Mercer - A Former Client's Perspective