Tamara Adlin - The Power of Alignment - The UX Consultants Lounge

Episode Transcript
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Kyle Soucy (00:15):
Welcome to the UX consultants lounge.
I'm Kyle Soucy, founder ofusable interface an independent
UX research consultancy.
You can find out more about mywork and the services I offer at
my website, usable interface.
com.
I'll be your host here at thelounge where I'll be providing a

(00:35):
place for UX consultants togather, share stories, and learn
more from one another.
My guest today is Tamara Adlin.
She is the owner of Adlin, Inc.
A consultancy that specializesin helping early stage startups
to align and create betterproducts.

(00:58):
Tamara also works with largercompanies on major redesigns and
new products.
I've known of Tamara for myentire career, but I've never
actually had an opportunity tomeet and talk with her until
having her on as a guest.
Early on in my career, Tamarawas known as one of the

(01:20):
resources for all things relatedto UX personas.
She co authored The Persona LifeCycle books with John Pruitt and
has been consulting since 2005and she's in the midst of
writing her third book nowcalled Align Before Design.
Right away, you'll hear in theinterview just how amazing

(01:44):
Tamara's energy is.
It was awesome to sit down andjust chat with her.
We covered a lot of topics,including Tamara's journey to
becoming an independentconsultant and how she took a
brief detour.
and decided to co create anagency with someone else, uh,
before deciding that thepartnership really wasn't going

(02:06):
to work out due to an imbalancein the relationship.
When it comes to her clientengagements, we discussed what
Tamara calls her quick hitprocess and how it's different
from just selling an assessment,which she commented is not
really an attractive thing forpeople to purchase.
Since Tamara specializes inhelping early stage startups, we

(02:30):
discussed what the impact ofspecializing has been like on
her business and her thoughts onhow it impacts her networking
and essentially her marketing,which she admits is mostly word
of mouth.
We talked about being women intech and her advice for female
consultants.
And lastly, we discussed her newpodcast, Corporate Underpants,

(02:54):
which explores the impact ofinternal politics on digital
products.
You know, I listened to thefirst episode before we talked
and I've really been enjoying itso far.
In that first episode, she hadScott Berkun on as a guest and
Tamara shared some advice that Ithink is especially important

(03:17):
for consultants.
And it's advice that we actuallydidn't cover in this episode,
but I wanted to make sure tomention it because I thought it
was so valuable.
Uh, she said in that firstepisode, you have to respect
whatever is going on already inthe organization and understand
it if you want to change it.

(03:40):
Barreling in with the solutionis never the answer.
Wise, wise words.
And so very true.
I encourage everyone to checkout the link in the show notes,
to listen to her podcast or joinher in a live recording of it.
So let me tell you a little bitmore about Tamara before we get
to the interview.

(04:01):
She lives in Seattle, and beforelaunching her own business,
Tamara was a user experiencelead at Amazon.
She has a master's degree inHuman Centered Design and
Engineering from UW, UW, and hasalways been fascinated with the
problem of getting lots ofpeople with different
backgrounds to communicate andwork well together.

(04:25):
Tamara really enjoys giving backby volunteering her time with
Never Search Alone, which is ajob search council started by
Phyl Terry that helps peoplefind jobs they love.
And she does a lot of speakingand writing about practical
advice for women who want andneed to fight for the right
titles and salaries.

(04:47):
As always, if you only have ashort period of time to listen,
I've added chapters for all thedifferent discussions so you can
jump around as much as youdesire.
So let's get to the interview.
Please enjoy Tamara Adlin.
Welcome to the lounge and, I'llstart with just the most
important question that you canpossibly start with.

(05:10):
Do people ever mispronounce yourname?

Tamara Adlin (05:13):
All the time.
Tamara like camera.

Kyle Soucy (05:15):
I, always wanna say Tamara for some reason.
Okay.
I'm not the only one.

Always.
Always, always, always.

Kyle Soucy (05:23):
I always get Kyleen or Kylie, because it couldn't
possibly be Kyle, and I get thatbecause normally it's not, but

It's Kyle,

Kyle Soucy (05:32):
it is, it is, yep.

Kylie?
No.

Kyle Soucy (05:35):
You know, I think people add it because they just
can't accept that it's Kyle.
So, what I'd love to do to startthings off is if you could tell
the listeners about yourconsultancy, Adlin, and the
services you offer.

Absolutely.
Adlin Inc is the company that Istarted in 2005 when I left
Amazon and I chose Adlin Incbecause I couldn't find any good
URLs.
So I took my last name.
So in 2005 I left Amazon when myfirst book came out to start
consulting and I had friends whowere working at big companies
and they said they would give megigs.

(06:11):
And so, that's what I did.
And I've been doing that eversince with a brief foray into
trying to create an agency.
I co-created an agency calledfell swoop and realized after a
year and a half that creating anagency and having a partner were
not the right things for me.
Which is a lesson.
You only have to learn once.

(06:32):
And then I've been consultingever since specifically I guess
my areas of specialty are superearly stage startups because
I've had a friend and arainmaker, somebody getting me
work.
Who's been in.
Early stage startups himself,and then also created a couple
of venture funds.
And then I also love working forbigger companies that are
wanting to behave more likestartups for some reason.

(06:52):
So they're doing a big redesign,or they're doing a, some kind of
internal pivot, or they'relaunching a new product.
And I love coming in and doingthat as well.

Kyle Soucy (07:01):
so many questions just based off of that.
So first, what are the servicesthat you offer for these, you
know, early stage startups ororganizations acting like one.

Like many consultants, the services I
offer exactly the same as I'vealways offered.
I just keep changing their namesbecause that's what we do.
So a lot of people know me forpersonas because the persona
life cycle and the essentialpersona life cycle came out in
2005 and 2010, and those werepretty well known in the UX
community.
So people who wanted to dopersona projects would find me

(07:32):
that way.
But I haven't done data drivenpersona efforts since the book
came out.
And instead I got really focusedon.
Executive and stakeholderalignment.
So what I offer today that I cantell you what I've packaged it
as is a quick hit, which is thefirst project I do with any

(07:52):
organization.
And then we can talk more aboutthat.
And then deeper dives orretainer or advisory
relationships that are more longterm.
And the reason I do that is thesame reason I hesitate to tell
you what the services are that Ioffer.
But for those of you in UX, inproduct, which all of you are,
what I do is super early stagefiguring out what the hell

(08:17):
they're trying to build.
And honestly, what I really dois untangle the team, and the
bosses of that team, if thereare some that are trying to
figure out what to build and howto build it.
So I have a superpower superearly in that, although nobody
is shopping for that, everybodyneeds it.
And my other set of superpowerslies in being able to look at

(08:39):
and coach during the designprocess.
So up leveling the people whoare working on the interaction
design information design.
I don't do that myself I lovebringing people in who I know
and then also helping thatdesign survive Through the
development process.

Kyle Soucy (08:59):
Yeah, I saw on your website that you're also doing
career coaching, right?

Yeah, I put that up there.
I have a couple of clients.
I mean I've been coaching womenparticularly throughout my
career and I never offered it asa service.
It's always just something thatI've done.
And so for people who want alonger, uh, deeper engagement in
that, I'm available to do thatas well.

(09:24):
I've been super involved in jobsearch stuff throughout my
career because women in techhave particular set of problems
that they need.
a tribe of other older women tohelp them with.
And also because recently I'vebeen very involved with Never
Search Alone, which is thisgiant, completely free network
for job seekers.

Kyle Soucy (09:44):
It sounds amazing.
Everything that I've heard aboutit, I've talked to people that
have gone through it and havesuggested it.
And when we talked earlier, youmentioned too that it's
something that even consultantscould do and get benefit out of.

100%.
So Never Search Alone is a bookthat came out, in 2002.
It's written by a person namedPhyl Terry, who I've known, P H
Y L Terry, who 2002, becausePhyl had these, Executive
counsel still does.
That's how Phyl makes money.
The company is collaborativegame and companies pay to send
senior level people to be onthese councils of non

(10:19):
competitive companies where theycan talk about all the stuff
they're trying to figure out intheir companies together because
Phyl is all about the power ofcommunity.
And then Phyl was coachingpeople way high level people.
And and a lot of job seekersThroughout their career and then
finally got never search aloneout and I tend to say and sound
cultish religious about thisbecause It's free.

(10:42):
It's a hundred percent free.
It's community based.
And so the deal is that thisbook I mean you buy the book
although twice as much as thebooks proceeds are Phyl's
putting back into the network,and then you can join a free job
search council.
You should think of it like AA,like Alcoholics Anonymous or
Narcotics Anonymous, but for jobseeking.

(11:03):
We're not affiliated with any ofthose groups, but the whole idea
is if you put a bunch of peopletogether in the same room or
same group who are strugglingwith the same problem and you
give them a process to follow,they help each other through.
And that's what this is.
It's 100 percent free.
You can even just borrow thebook from the library.
You don't even have to pay forthat.
And I've.
I just love.

(11:24):
Love it.
And about 15, 000 people so farin the past two years have
formed over 3, 000 job searchcouncils and gone through this
11 week process together ontheir own, with a huge network
of 100 percent volunteerssupporting them, in doing that.
And so it absolutely sounds toogood to be true and it

(11:47):
absolutely is not too good to betrue.
It's for real, which is one ofthe reasons why I've been so
excited about.
Helping with it.

Kyle Soucy (11:54):
Well, I definitely want to check it out and I'm
going to put a link in the shownotes for anyone else, the Never
Search Alone book.
So you can find it there

Let me answer your questions about consultants
though, because I skipped thatpart in my, in my monologue.
So I joined a job search councilback when the book came out to
help Phyl launch this wholething.
And actually I was, I sort ofjust did it to help, right.
But I was trying to figure outwhether I wanted to stay a
consultant or go back in housebecause I was hearing about
these mythical jobs that peoplewere getting a huge money for in

(12:23):
house.
And I, I was trying to figure itout.
And so this process helped mefigure out.
what I wanted to do.
And the way you can think aboutit as a UX person is you're
UXing yourself.
So you are really slowing downto speed up to figure out
exactly what, and it's calledthe candidate market fit is,

(12:44):
which is a very specificstatement about who you are
today, what you want in yournext job.
But I kind of morphed that intothe consultant market fit.
And I actually wrote a coupleposts about that on my LinkedIn
way back.
The whole idea of, is whatyou're offering what people are
shopping for?
And if they are, how are theydescribing it?

(13:04):
So the same principles, andthere are subgroups, there's
this huge 10, 000 person Slackchannel, and there are subgroups
in there that are consultantssort of helping.
It's not designed to launch yourbusiness, but it is designed to
figure out who the hell you areand how you describe yourself.
Which all of us need,

Kyle Soucy (13:21):
Yes.
Yeah.
Getting that, that pitch down,just explaining it or even just
figuring out the services.
And I love how you mentioned howpeople are shopping for it.
'cause you, you mentionedyourself that it's hard to
explain exactly what you offer.
And also you mentioned thatnobody is looking for that, but
they all need it.
So

that's a hundred percent true.
Like I sell something everybodyneeds and nobody is shopping
for.
So I was really excited.
For example, when this new bookby, Bruce McCarthy and Melissa
Appel came out and it's calledAligned.
At first I was upset cause I waslike, Hey, they wrote my book.
But I think the idea ofalignment and the criticality of
it.
Is starting to become part ofour vocabulary and part of the

(14:02):
business world's vocabulary.
Very, very slowly.
So I've had to repackage that inall sorts of ways.
I mean, often I'm brought in todo personas, but I'm a, I'm a
Trojan horse because actuallywhat I do is this alignment
workshop that results in what Icall alignment personas that has
absolutely nothing to do withcollecting new data.

(14:23):
It comes before all of that, butit's tricky when we do what we
do, we do stuff that.
It kind of looks obvious oncewe've done it, which is a huge
problem in the world of UX.
If you do a good job, it lookslike you were never needed in
the first place.

Kyle Soucy (14:37):
Right.
Right.
And I love that concept of justslowing down to speed up.
think that's important.

It is.
It's really hard to convince.
I mean, I can hear the otherconsultants out there listening
to this recording saying, how doyou get them to do that?
And my favorite way to getpeople to slow down to speed up
is to say that I absolutely 100percent require clear,
measurable goals for any projectbefore I'm willing to start it.

(15:05):
And they always say, Oh, we'llsend them to you.
We don't have to So, and it'skind of hard to say, Oh, this
consultant's coming in, wantsbusiness goals.
And we think that's pointless.
I mean, nobody can say thatthat's a dumb idea.
That's the wonderful thing aboutthe word biz.
I don't call them UX goals.
I don't call them project goals.
I call them business goals for areason, because nobody can say

(15:30):
that's a pointless exercise.

Kyle Soucy (15:32):
So is that a line that you draw on the sand where
if they can't give you thosemeasurable goals You don't take
on the work or is that somethingyou'll just you'll work with
them on defining that.

Oh, no, I absolutely.
I mean, that's my favorite workto take on.
I just say we can't get on withthe rest of it until we nail
these down and agree with them.

Kyle Soucy (15:49):
Gotcha.
So

that's my favorite thing.
They just always say that theyhave them And they never do.

Kyle Soucy (15:56):
Now is that what you call the the quick hit process
when you have a new clientengagement

So the quick hit process and since You know, it's
just between us chickens herelistening to this.
Here's the deal.
Sometimes it's very, very hardto sell what we do because what
we do depends.
We have a goal in mind,especially for early stage
people.
Maybe user researchers, it'seasier for them to package.
I have no idea.
But what I'll say is from myperspective, where what I do is

(16:24):
a little bit squishier.
A lot of people try to sell a,an assessment and that's cool,
but that's also really hard topurchase.
Like, how do you justify buyingan assessment?
From the purchaser side, it'soh, we're paying this consultant
to figure out what they can sellus.
To me, it just never felt smartto buy an assessment.

(16:44):
So why should I sell anassessment?
And also, because I work withearly stage startups, it's
really hard for them to gettheir head around.
You know, how do we worktogether?
What's the hourly rate, etcetera.
So what I do is I offer a quickhit at a price point below which
I will not work for people.
Because if you work for peoplefor a small amount of money, the

(17:07):
smaller the amount of money, thelarger the pain in the ass that
client will be.
Inevitably.

Kyle Soucy (17:13):
so true.

It's so true.
And it's a nickel and dimingsituation.
And those are great.
As you're coming up in yourcareer, you figure it out each
other together, you get really,really involved.
But once you get a little older,you know, you become, I don't
know which supermodel said thatshe wouldn't get out of bed for
less than 20, 000 a day.
Now I haven't

Kyle Soucy (17:31):
Linda Evangelista.
I remember that quote.
A

I get it.
It's if you're not going tovalue what I bring to the table,
or if I can't explain it to away in which you are going to
put value on it, then it'spointless doing this.
Cause I'm not going to have thepower.
I need to get the work done.

Kyle Soucy (17:48):
hundred percent.
Now, let's take a, just a stepback for a moment, about that
journey to becoming aconsultant.
You mentioned that you first hadthe, um, co created an agency
and realized that was not foryou.
Could you tell me a little moreabout that?
Why was that not for you?

So I didn't do it first.
What I did first was I went outon my own.

Kyle Soucy (18:09):
Okay.
Ah,

And when you're in UX, the UX field, at least for
me, I'll just say for me, I betit's true for a lot of other
people, you only offer a pieceof the process, right?
And for, especially if you'reworking with early stage
companies, they don't know whatthe rest of the process is.
So I haven't done wireframes in,I don't even know how long, it
would be absolutely pointlessfor me to try because I'd be
lousy at it.

(18:30):
So Back then I startedpartnering with this person all
the time and they would do thewireframes and then we were
like, if we're doing this allthe time, maybe we should create
an agency and everybody goesthrough this or we should create

(18:51):
a virtual agency, whichhappened.
You know, six years later thatthat conversation all the time.
And for some people that maymake sense.
And like people were, you know,that main Rainmaker that I have
that VC was like, Oh, you shouldfigure out how to scale your
business.
You're so awesome.
Scale, scale, scale.
So I was like, this is kind of ano brainer, except it wasn't a
no brainer.

(19:11):
So in 2008.
we decided to create this agencytogether.
The best thing that we did wasget a prenup with a lawyer.
So if you are going to do anagency or partnership, find a
lawyer and do a prenup.
No marriage ever starts with theidea of divorce.
No business partnership everstarts with the idea of we're

(19:35):
going to break up.
But man, oh man, it is.
Not pleasant to break up apartnership.
The, so that included, like if Igot eight and by an alligator,
would his girlfriend get 2% ofthe company Like, deep, deep
crazy specific questions aboutequity and all this other stuff.
And that turned out to beridiculously useful at the end.

(19:59):
So what happened during thatagency process is we were
getting work and stuff, but Icould go deeper into what broke
that down if you wanted, but I'mnot sure that that's.

Kyle Soucy (20:08):
oh, just cu Yeah, just curious why you decided to
end that and go back to beingindependent.

Because it would turn out to be an unbalanced
relationship.
So at that time, I was furtheralong in my career.
I had written a book.
I was writing a second book.
I was a big fish in a small pondin the UX community.
People knew who I was because Iwas going to all the conferences
and everything.
Nobody knew who my partner was.
My partner was a mid sized fishin Seattle, doing design with

(20:37):
talented, but not getting bigprojects.
And also what I do tends to looklike me standing in front of a
room full of important peopleand joking around for a couple
of weeks.
And what they do looks like assin chair for weeks and weeks and
weeks on end doing wireframeafter wireframe after wireframe.

(20:58):
When that is the case, The powerimbalance, the perception of who
gets what out of this and theresponsibilities get tricky.
Some people totally nail it.
There was a partnership atblink, with, Kelly and Karen
that lasted a gazillion years.
They sold at a profit.
They amazing business partners.

(21:18):
This wasn't that, and when itisn't, it can get super duper
messy and it can also starthitting all of your personal
buttons because it is thisstrange relationship you have
with another person that is alot of time in your life, and
it's It, you're not married, butit starts hitting a lot of
personal buttons for me.

(21:39):
It did anyway.
And I bet it does for others aswell.

Kyle Soucy (21:42):
I see.
Yeah.
What were the, the pivotalmoments that led you to say, you
know what, I wanna go out on myown, you know, before even
creating that, that agency

You mean when I left Amazon?

Kyle Soucy (21:56):
yeah, yeah.
What made you wanna be aconsultant?

So when I, apparently even in my interview
at Amazon in 2002, I, they askedme where I saw myself in five
years.
And I said, as a consultant, Idon't remember that, but my boss
at the time told me that later.
Um, I think when you write abook, it's to become a
consultant because you establishyourself as knowing a lot about
something and you never get themoney back just in book sales.

(22:23):
Ever.
This is so much work.
So in Amazon, the book wascoming out.
It was 2005.
One day, somebody walked into myoffice and asked me for
something I should have beenable to give them.
And I didn't have the resourcesto do it.
And literally like a rubber bandjust snapped.
Meanwhile, other friends hadleft Amazon and started getting
jobs at other companies.
And they're like, come over andwe'll give you a consulting

(22:44):
project anytime.
And I was like, okay.
So that's, it was a rubber bandsnapping in my head.
It was like, I can't, I can't dothis anymore.

Kyle Soucy (22:55):
and you were set up perfectly.
I think it, it sounds likehaving the connections writing
the book.
Yeah.
Now.

That's what I, and people thinking about consulting
now, it is a very differentworld.
I was, it was just basicallyhanded to me and it is, and I am
not having an easy time now.
I will show that with people.
So it's not easy.

Kyle Soucy (23:15):
I've got to interject.
I would not say it was handed toyou.
You worked your ass off for it.
You wrote that book.
You put, you know, youdefinitely earned it.
You had the,

That is a good,

Kyle Soucy (23:25):
yeah, You had the,

have corrected that at any other woman who said
that.
So thank you for that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The environment and me met up.

Kyle Soucy (23:32):
Yes.
Yeah.
Now you've been in business over20 years.
As you mentioned, a lot haschanged and you know, you were
initially the, the personaperson.
And that's not necessarily whatyou want to be known for now.
So there's been a lot of changesand I'm just curious, You
mentioned specializing in, youknow, messy startups, and you

(23:52):
also specialize in Web3 andblockchain.
Is that right?

I have been for a while, not as much anymore.
Because, so I told you there'sthis rainmaker that I've known
for 20 years, started knowingthem back.
at my Amazon days.
And first they were starting upall their own stuff.
And then they were creatingthese, venture funds.
And the first venture fund thathe created was in e commerce and
retail technologies.

(24:17):
And then he got into blockchain,and crypto and all of that
stuff.
And in 2017, I wish I hadlistened to him then and bought
some Bitcoin.
I mean, I was like, okay,whatever he was my main guy and
he was all into this newtechnology and I followed him
in, blockchain and web three arenot yet ready for UX.

(24:37):
That's a blanket statement thatI.
I still kind of stand by today.
They're getting there.
But whenever any new technologyis having money thrown at their
faces by venture, they're notready to slow down to speed up.
So that's one of the hurdlesthat I've hit is that, you know,
he still has this venture fundand I still advise them, but

(25:00):
it's not quite the right fit forme.
And the personas thing isinteresting too, because now
everybody hates personas.
I think what they actually hateis the disappointment of big,
expensive, persona, data drivenprocesses, and I kind of agree
with that.
So it's weird, it's, it'sinteresting to be as, I think
some people who just say, oh,you're the persona person.

(25:21):
I'm like, kinda?
Yeah, but, you know, my thoughtshave changed a lot over the
years about.
The way personas can and shouldbe used in companies

Kyle Soucy (25:33):
Yeah, and as they should, right?
You have to change with thetimes and it's, you're not going
to be that person with that,Advice forever.
It's got to change.
And I'm wondering what has theimpact of specializing, been
like on your business?

while specializing in early stage startups is dumb
because they don't have anymoney.
Nobody told me that I was jokingaround with my friend Katie
about that.
And it's led me to understandthat.
I have to only work with what Icall jokingly called pre
disaster founders as founderswho have been through the
process before, becauseotherwise they have so much
hubris that nobody can tell themanything.

(26:09):
I mean the impact, I just, Ilove it.
There's a lot that drives mecrazy about it.
Often, often, often, I think,God, there's gotta be easier
ways to make money.
And there probably are gettingcontracts with big companies,
but this is the path I've taken.
And.
You have to reevaluate if you'reconsulting, you're consulting
business changes every couple ofyears.

(26:31):
Unless you're like one of thegiant names, I guess, but what
people are looking for.
So I, don't even know.
I mean, that's the path I took.
And so here I am.

Kyle Soucy (26:42):
You know, I, we talked about this briefly before
and, I know I've talked about iton the show with other guests, I
always battle with specializing,you know, it makes perfect sense
to specialize because ifsomebody needs, you know, the
e-commerce expert or this expertor medical device expert, they
think of you.
But I always worry.

(27:02):
If it ever feels like it'sholding you back cause you can
work in other industries, youjust specialize in this and you
don't want to miss out on othergood, interesting work or
opportunities.
Have you ever found that to bethe case?

Well, that's okay.
So that's an enormous point inNever Search Alone, by the way,
and job search councils.
The idea of candidate market fitis that, and this is the example
I use.
If you lose your job in UX, youprobably put on your LinkedIn,
I'm open to any UX Job that'sout there, right?
Because you are, so you throwthis net.

(27:35):
The problem with doing that isif you look at the responses to
LinkedIn posts like that, peoplewill be like, anybody would be
lucky to have you.
And, but they don't say, I'mgoing to introduce you to George
over at Acme incorporated.
Because nobody knows what to dowith that.
I think the same is true withconsultants also, Then when you
look at the hiring process, somepeople do put out that they're

(27:57):
specialized.
So then you're in a competitiveenvironment.
Where you're like, I can do itall against somebody who says, I
specialized in medicalequipment.
So who is the medical equipmentcompany going to pick?
So Phyl's point is, people arereally good at expanding from
narrow statements.
They're not good at contractingfrom wide statements.

(28:18):
So a wide statement is, I'lltake anything in UX or UX
research.
A narrow statement is, I'mlooking to join an established
UX research team as a senior.
Manager, at a 5, 000 plus personcompany, advanced stage startup
or young company, in thehealthcare field.

(28:39):
If you are able to say that,then people know who you are,

Kyle Soucy (28:43):
Mm hmm.

and they are actually more likely to
introduce you to someone intransportation who has a senior
management role open.
In a company of that size or tosomeone in healthcare who has a
smaller company, that's lookingto grow because they know who
you are.
So here's the deal.
Somebody has to know who thehell you are.

Kyle Soucy (29:02):
Right.

And if it's not you, you're asking your
customers to figure that out foryou.
It can't be avoided.
The squishiness has to behandled by someone and if it's
not you, then you're asking yourpotential customers to handle
squishiness.
I don't know anybody.
I mean, I'm sure they're outthere who has just put out a
marketing campaign and built aconsulting business out of that,

(29:24):
like with broad statements.
So if things come through wordof mouth, then, The specificity
is also useful.

Kyle Soucy (29:33):
And I love that, expanding narrow, statement.
It makes a lot of sense.
And just to pivot to the, themarketing a little bit, and just
finding that consultant marketfit, what strategies have been
effective for you in marketingyour own services and attracting
new clients?

None.

Kyle Soucy (29:52):
None.

I've always been horrible at that.
Almost all of my stuff has comethrough word of mouth.
It just, it just has.
And I just suck at.
I mean, every time I try tothink of Oh, I should do this to
market myself or that, then Ithink, or I could do that or, or
I could do this, but really Ishould work on that.
And I get totally wrapped aroundmy own axle.

Kyle Soucy (30:15):
You described yourself as a a UX vampire, and
I loved that term.
Can you ex

So that's not marketing.
That's so UX

Kyle Soucy (30:23):
No.
Yeah.

say, I say that I have to be invited in.
So if you market yourself, youhave, you like knocking on
doors.
Right.
But for me, Especially with thework I do at my level, which is
hopefully senior and executivelevel unclusterfucking, somebody
inside has to realize that theyhave a problem and somebody from
the outside, not me has to say,you should talk to Tamara.

(30:48):
So the job I'm doing now, itcame from this startup being
fired by a super senior UXdesigner who had been going
around in circles with them for18 months.
And I'm telling you, this womanis.
And can handle untangling mostthings.
This was such a big tangle.
She was like, you guys needhelp.

Kyle Soucy (31:09):
Mm.

And that's how they never would have gone
shopping for me.

Kyle Soucy (31:13):
Right, right.
And when you, when they get thatmessage like, oh, you have to
talk to Tamara, and you get thatinvite in, how do you know when
it's going to be a good fit?
Mm-hmm

Well, that's another reason to do the quick
hit.
The reason to do the quick hitis it's dating before marriage,
right?
For both sides.
And also I'm generous with mytime before the contract starts.
I talk to them a bunch before wesigned a contract and I usually
often talk to every singlemember of the management team or
several members or somethinglike that before we get started.

(31:46):
And that process is alsocritically important.
That's my sales process.
My sales process is doingexactly the same thing that I'm
so good at, which is Really,really listening and asking
questions and identifying theirproblems, not the problems with
the product, the problems withtheir team, with the process,

(32:07):
with the communication.
So an example I always use iseven when people call me for
personas.
Within 10 minutes, we're talkingabout how the VP of product and
the VP of engineering hate eachother.

Kyle Soucy (32:20):
Yep.

That's the real problem.

Kyle Soucy (32:24):
So getting back to that stakeholder alignment, but
with just hiring you anddefining that scope.

If they're, stuck, then they don't even know how
they're stuck.
And they certainly don't knowhow to solve it.
They come up with a solution togo shopping for a consultant
because they have to, right?
They're like, well, who do weneed to hire?
An executive coach, a researcherdo we need to do a workshop?

(32:50):
Do we need to send people totraining at Nelson Norman?
They already have to figure outwhat they don't know the
solution, but it's like, oh,they, they take a stab at the
solution in order to hire thesolution, even though.
We, the providers will be betterat saying, okay, here's where
you should go.

Kyle Soucy (33:07):
You know, I really appreciate you being so honest
with telling me that nothing hasbeen effective with marketing or
attracting new clients that it'sall word of mouth.
Cause I mean, I'm, I'm in thesame boat.
People ask all the time, like,how do you find new clients?
It's like, I don't really know.
I try my hardest, but nothingseems to work.
You know, whether it's, writingsomething on LinkedIn, writing

(33:27):
an article.
Speaking at a conference, Imean, I don't know, I don't know
what works, but eventuallysomehow someone hears about me
and, and that's the way in,right?
Having the warm lead, you,you've referenced it a couple of
times, this person in yournetwork that you call the
rainmaker.
And I think that that is soimportant when people are
considering consulting, it's notnecessarily how.

(33:50):
Big your network is right?
It's about knowing that rightperson that hopefully can Spread
the word or has good connectionsand it's you know, are you
connected to those rainmakers?

So there's, in them again, we're, we're mushing
together, never search alone inthis, but because it makes
sense.
This is about career stuff,right?
In never search alone, beforeyou create candidate market fit,
you go on something called alistening tour, which is a
structured set of threedifferent kinds of interviews
that you do with people in yournetwork.
And you're really, reallyorganized about the kinds of
questions that you ask.

(34:23):
And it's all in the book and inthe templates and all that
stuff.
But part of that process is.
also establishing with thosepeople in your network, what it
is that you're doing andoffering now.
And it's another reason to bespecific because, Oh, I know
somebody who wants a 5, 000 plusperson growth stage startup or,
Oh my God, I know an early stageperson or, Oh, I know someone

(34:46):
who does healthcare like top ofmindedness.
Specificity can help with thatand, and different people can
have a different concept of yourspecificity.
I mean, someone in your networkwho's got a lot of friends who
are VCs can think of you asearly stage, while another set
of your network can think of youas healthcare or manager or

(35:06):
whatever, right?
But I think if you're going todepend on word of mouth, which I
think you have to, I think youhave to put those words in that
mouth.
There's a good quote.

Kyle Soucy (35:16):
Right, yeah

And you have to be the one to do that.
You have to make it easy.
for others to describe what youdo.

Kyle Soucy (35:24):
And tell me a little bit about corporate underpants.
Is this a marketing effort?
Is it just a kind of fun thingor

Okay.
So right now I'm working on anew book called aligned before
design, which is about alignmentpersonas, which is an executive
alignment sort of workshopprocess that anybody in UX is
going to be able to do.
And I'm looking for earlyreaders on that.
So people can get in touch withme, about that.
And I've also launched corporateunderpants, which is.
podcast and a live show that Ido on LinkedIn.

(35:55):
So you can follow me if you wantto find that.
And it's also launched onpodcast networks.
I'm only a couple episodes in.
So again, you know, writing abook is a way to establish
yourself as a strong voice insomething like it's always.
Interesting to me, the wholeidea of thought leader.
I mean, I think I fit in thatcategory, but it feels like a

(36:16):
very weird thing to say.
It's especially weird if all youdo is write blog posts all day.
So it sort of does that thingthat label is supposed to do.
Corporate underpants.
I have been shoulding on myselffor years.
You should, should, should getout there and do more
presentations or get back, youknow, people don't know who I am

(36:39):
anymore in UX.
Some people do, some peopledon't.
And I'm like, that's irritating.
Look at my ego.
Corporate underpants is.
Really for practitioners and itdefines the problem.
The problem is that politics inorganizations ruin our projects
like tornadoes ripping throughand a building site, the
corporate underpants comes tothem, the idea of visible panty

(37:01):
lines, ruining an outfit.
And it's a blog.
It comes from a blog post I didin 2006.
That term, not a new idea, butmy cute term for it, that's the
problem.
And this aligned before designis the solution.
So corporate underpants, is itmarketing?
I mean, sure.
I don't know.
The only way I could start it isby not overloading it with too

(37:24):
many, this is what this iscriteria.
I just had to start doing it andlet.
You know, cookie crumbs fallwhere they may.
Otherwise, I get too stuck.

Kyle Soucy (37:39):
Yep.
Yeah,

So I just, I had to do it.
Because I was irritated thatother people were talking around
this topic, and I have more tosay on this than most of them.
And I love having an audience,doing a presentation, and I was
craving that, so I did it.

Kyle Soucy (37:54):
I'm so glad you are doing it and you are so good at
it, too.
You have so much energy and yourinterview style is just really
fun and refreshing.
So I think it's great and I lovejust a side note that graphic of
the corporate underpants withthe skyscraper with the
underwear on is just hystericaland it's like you have to look

(38:15):
at that and be like, what theheck is this about?
So it

Yeah, I'm the only one who's putting like, Oh a
bulge on

Kyle Soucy (38:21):
right?

If we need more

Kyle Soucy (38:24):
Oh my gosh.

here you go.
Also, the way you can know thatyou have a new idea is if AI has
a hard time drawing it.

Kyle Soucy (38:31):
Oh nice.

So my friend, a friend of mine who's a very
great artist and very great sortof wrangler of AI was playing
with that with me and came upwith that.
I'm like, okay, that's prettygood.

Kyle Soucy (38:43):
My one kid saw it when it was on my computer
screen.
He's like, what is that?
And I'm like, oh.

You know, I mean, you know, it's, it's, why not?
And also, oh, my God, you guys,if you tune in for one thing,
it's for my song.
I developed a jingle for it.
I wrote the lyrics, and then Iput it into an AI music
generator, and it created thefunnest jingle ever.

(39:12):
And so I now have custom musicfor it.
Oh, I'll tell you what thelyrics are.
Ready for this?
Don't let corporate politics andclusterfuckery ruin all your
projects and your sanity.
Smooth out those panty lines andmake it all make sense.
Get experience through osmosiswith corporate underpants.

Kyle Soucy (39:30):
Oh, brilliant.

So you've got to have some fun and some, I don't
know, cursing in order for, Idon't know, for me, I do anyway.

Kyle Soucy (39:39):
You know, it, that's awesome.
You found a creative outlet, youhad something to say on it, and
you know, like you said, whetherit's marketing or not, it's
something you're doing that youwant to do and you're passionate
about.
So excellent.

way, I'm not all that confident all the time.
I mean, the only way I am islike, just to say, I don't care.
If people listen to it or not, Imean, literally, maybe there
have been eight people on thefirst couple episodes listening
live, who knows how the podcastis going to go.
But I don't care because I lovethe stories and I'm so curious
about them.

(40:13):
I just do it because I do it.

Kyle Soucy (40:15):
And I, I feel the same way with this podcast, is
it marketing, I'm definitelyhelping others, but I just like
doing it.
And you know, if I get onelistener, it's enough to keep
doing it, you know, but you hopefor more, but.

No, I think you're doing a really good, sir.
And it's the same kind of thing.
People need to know realstories.
Not Oh yeah, you should be aconsultant around the dinner
table.
You need to hear real storiesand know what you're getting
into and get some experience byosmosis.
That's what you're offering.
Kyle, and I think you're doing agreat job.
So back at you.

Kyle Soucy (40:46):
thank you.
Thank you.
Well, I wanna talk to you aboutbeing a woman in tech.
Uh, you wrote a great, greatarticle, Elation and Deflation,
the Reality and Responsibilityof Being an Experienced Woman in
Tech, and I thought.
It was so well written.
You're a great writer and I, Ilove how you explored the highs

(41:09):
and the lows of a career, intech for women.
And I want to read a shortsnippet of it about what you
called the, quote, exhaustingtruth.
So you wrote, for women, thenegotiation is never over.
We are never fully compensated.

(41:29):
We are never sure where the topis, but we are pretty damn sure
we haven't reached it.
It's very hard to see glassceilings.
It's impossible to comparecolleagues at the top echelons
of organizations.
Who is more valuable?
Who should be making what?
No one knows.
There is no finish line.

(41:50):
There is only the very safeassumption that if you are a
woman, you are not at the top ofany of those piles.

Oh, that is good.
I haven't read that in a while.

Kyle Soucy (42:01):
So good.
And you went on to say, let'ssee here.
Almost everyone has voices inour heads telling us that we
maybe aren't as good as we thinkwe are.
Experienced women have anothervoice in our heads saying, I'm
not getting my fair share.
And this voice is probably muchstronger and certainly more
correct for women who don't havethe benefits of privilege that I

(42:25):
do.
It says all the work you've doneso far.
Isn't enough.
And that hit home.
Oh my gosh, so much to me.
I hear it echoed in my networkof women in tech who are
powerhouses who are strong, whoare amazingly accomplished.
But then we're also feelingLike, we're not where we should

(42:46):
be, and at first, thank you forwriting that, but then also I'm
curious to know, what advice doyou offer to women navigating
similar experiences in UXconsulting?

The best piece of advice I can give you is find
other women you can talk aboutmoney with and talking about
money with other women requiressome preparation because, at
moments, each of you is going tobe in a position that the other
one would like to be in.
For me, what has ended upworking is to say out loud if
someone else's Negotiating a jobfor some ridiculous amount of

(43:22):
money.
I first have to say out loud,okay, I'm having an envy moment
because this is so amazing, butonce I say it aloud, then I can
say, okay.
But that's fine.
We'll do me after.
Let's do you.
But I have to say it.
Otherwise it traps my voice, ittraps my heart, it traps my ego.

(43:42):
And I can't be fully in it.
I have to just say it.
And once I say it, I feel alittle bit better.
Which is like the opposite ofsaying I feel fat, which never
makes you feel better.
It always makes you feel likeyou shouldn't have said it in
the first place, right?
This makes me feel better,saying I'm having a moment of
envy.
Okay.
I've said it out loud.
Whatever it is that enables youto talk to another woman fully

(44:06):
about money is going to bereally important in your career
because it's only when you'reoutside of the position that you
can say.
No, well, like some of the bestadvice I've gotten from other
women is that email should onlybe two sentences I've written,
you know, paragraphs, they saytwo sentences, or they say, no,
just ask for 50, 000 more, notthat I'm doing that right now,

(44:28):
but, then just Put a period atthe end of that sentence.
I think you need that.
I think you need thatperspective.
I think you need that tribe.
I think if you're a consultant,you also need that tribe to help
you say no when the opportunityis not good.
And that's a similar idea to thejob search council idea.
Never search alone because as aconsultant, you're going to have

(44:51):
opportunities that something inyour head is telling you this is
not a good one, but you're.
And, often when that's happened,I've called two or three
different women and they're likeTamera.
Nope.
Do not do this.
You're going to regret it.
I mean, finances being finances,you do what you need to do, but

(45:11):
you need that.
You need that squad.
And in order to have that squad,you have to talk about envy.
You have to talk about financialjealousy.
You have to talk about egorelated to titles.
There's somebody I used tomentor who has now gone on to

(45:33):
jobs making stupid amounts ofmoney, way more than I've ever
made.
And I have to process that inorder to be what I really am,
which is so fully.
Supportive and excited by that

Kyle Soucy (45:49):
And having that professional support group, I
think there's just not enough ofthat, especially with women,
because like a lot of times welook at each other sometimes
competitively.

percent.
And by the way, senior women andcompanies aren't always pleasant
to work for either.
There's so much that we haven'tprocessed and so many games
we've had to play to climb towhere we are.
there's toxicity swirled intoour selves that we have to
process.
Anyway, going totally agree withyou.

Kyle Soucy (46:22):
well, it's interesting, I love how you
called out, you have torecognize there's envy there.
Right?
And put that aside.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
And you're only human.
How, how could you not?
But then there's also happiness,right?
Because what's good for onewoman is great for all of us.
You know?

ostensibly.
But even that I hear and I'mlike, I

Kyle Soucy (46:47):
Yeah.

mean, it still gives you the same.
The reactions are there and youhave to have, you have to sort
of develop.
A strong EQ around yourself as aprofessional and a money earner
and all of those things, whichis not easy.

Kyle Soucy (47:04):
And I like that you called it a squad.
And I think that's more thanjust, it's not your network.
This is a, a group of closepeople that you can talk frankly
with, share things with, thatit's not, you know, this is not
going to be something you talkabout on LinkedIn.
It's just something with yourclose colleagues.

It's the equivalent of the people that
you talk to about shitty stuffthat happens in your
relationships, right?
That you trust not to hold on tothem and remember them next time
you're back in love again, It'sthe people you can really be
bare with.

Kyle Soucy (47:37):
hmm.
Mm

And that you also know that your presence helps
them and developing that cantake time.
You probably already know them,or, or if you suspect it might
be a good person, you have tosit down and say, can we have a
conversation about talking aboutmoney?
Because I think I'm going toneed.
Your ears.

(47:59):
And also by the way, I'm prettyopen about what I charge and
stuff because I really hope thatother people will help me figure
it out too.
So sometimes that's true andsometimes that's not.

Kyle Soucy (48:12):
Well, I'm so glad that you wrote that again, and,
I think it's a powerful messagethat, that every woman should
have their squad, especiallyimportant now, more than ever.
And

when I do coach women, which I'm actually really
good at doing, I have control ofthat in myself now because I've
been working on it so long thatI can be fully supportive of
them.
So it's hard when you hear aboutsuccesses from another person,
not to take it personally.

Kyle Soucy (48:38):
hmm.
Mm hmm.

Just think about that and notice that next time
you're talking to somebody.
If you have experience doingthat, then you know, like a
therapist, it's not about you,it's about them.
And them even talking about itwith you puts you into a
position where it's like you'rea good parent who's like
listening and strong enough inthemselves to be 100 percent
there for another person.

(49:01):
And with women, we don'tunderstand the value of what
we've already done.

Kyle Soucy (49:05):
Mm.

And we don't, we just don't.

Kyle Soucy (49:09):
Yep.
So true.
Just diminish it.
And, I wanted to talk a littlebit more about your writing.
So you had the two books out, onpersonas and

Which I co authored, by the way,

Kyle Soucy (49:21):
right.

with John Pruitt, who went on to a huge career at
Dell.

Kyle Soucy (49:27):
And this third book, A Line Before Design, I wanted
to ask, how do you feel aboutself publishing versus having a
book publisher?
Which route are you going to gothis time?

I, you know, I don't know.
I have a feeling it's going tobe self published.
Again, I think all of thesethings tend to wrap me around my
own axle.
It's squirrel, squirrel,squirrel.
But worse, because dogs chasethem and they never catch them.
Every time I think about it, Iget such in a Like a hair around
a vacuum cleaner axle.
Like I can't, and I immediatelyfreeze.

(50:00):
So what I'm doing right now iswriting it.
And I think I'm going to put itout there and not put pressure
on myself to market it too much.
I think it's going to be a wordof mouth thing.
I think it'll be a relatively ina, you know, 10 or 20 book.
And then I think I'm alsothinking about putting together
templates that people can buywith their work budgets that

(50:22):
come with some coaching from meas well.
So like you can buy this AlignBefore Design book and do this
workshop because anybody can,although it takes a little
finesse.
I call it five conversations forexecutive alignment and you
create these alignment personas,which are, you know, getting
everybody's assumptions out onthe table and into the light.
Because, as I like to say, theonly assumptions that can hurt
your product are the ones youdon't know about.

(50:45):
But then also there's liketemplates and like I could coach
you and maybe your business canpay for that, you know, that's a
little bit more.
So I don't even know how I'd goabout approaching a publisher at
this point.
The publisher of my book beforeMorgan Kaufman and Elsevier,
they're more of a bigger bookstype thing.

(51:05):
And this one, I want to beshort.
I want to be easy and I don'twant to think about it too much
and I want to be able to updateit.
So I don't know a whole hell ofa lot about what that means.
So

Kyle Soucy (51:16):
All right, well, I think it's great that you're at
that point where you're kind ofopen to anything and I noticed
on your website, there is aplace to sign up for updates on
the book, so I'll make sure toinclude that in the show notes
as well.
I'm anxious to see.
What becomes of it?

me too, I guess I have to write it.

Kyle Soucy (51:37):
just to wrap up with our last minutes here, I just
have some, some rapid firequestions for you.
From your perspective, whatmakes a consultant good?

What makes a consultant good, I think is
someone who really dives in anddoesn't just understand the
problem that they were hired tosolve, but understand the
problem in the organization thatrequired them.
To go get help.

Kyle Soucy (52:04):
Yeah,

That's my perspective.
Let's say you're a researcher,you can go out and get the
greatest data in the world.
But if the reason they wantedthat data was to solve an
argument that you don't knowabout, it's not going to work.
I mean, probably in userresearch, everyone listening can
name a dozen projects over theircareer, which were great data

(52:25):
and totally ignored.
In fact, my most recentinterview with Jeff Verona is
exactly that great research thatthere was one person who said,
what about mobile demolished thewhole thing, at the last minute.
So to me, it's really aboutunderstanding both levels of
problem.
And often, if you understand thecorporate problem, the team, the

(52:48):
politics problem, it changeswhat you.
Should and can deliver becauseanybody who's out there hiring a
consultant has a problem.
That doesn't mean they know theway to solve it.
You are the one who knows theway to solve it.
So just saying, yes, I'll do itexactly the way you say, unless
it's for some amazing userresearch team that just needs an

(53:10):
extra hand, it's not gonna work.

Kyle Soucy (53:12):
Yeah, I love that.
And then what's the best pieceof business advice you've ever
received?

I think it's just the general idea that word of
mouth and personal relationshipsis.
Probably the most powerful thingyou can do.

Kyle Soucy (53:25):
So you mentioned Never Search Alone as a great
resource and I was wonderingwhat, Resources specific to
consulting have been mosthelpful for you.

Other consultants have been helpful, but also
there's a book that I love thatI just discovered recently
called, Taking the Work Out ofNetworking.
It's by Karen Wickrey, who'sthis awesome, she calls herself
the most connected, hiddenperson in Silicon Valley and
this whole magic of how do youactually talk to people and
build your network has alwaysbeen a bit of a confusing thing
to me.

(53:55):
And her point is that thepurpose of the first meeting is
to get the second meeting.
And that has really helped mebecause The thing I realized
I've been doing wrong and thepiece of advice I would give
that's taken from that is don'tdo the blurt.
Don't walk up to people and tryto shove your entire resume and
history and how great you areinto 90 seconds.

(54:16):
Nobody likes hearing that, butwe all feel like we need to do
it to prove our value.
Instead, what we need to do isconnect with someone about like,
I rescue bunny rabbits.
Sometimes I say that want to seea picture of my bunny, whatever,
anything to get the secondconversation.
Or, this idea of consultantmarket fit, this one sentence,

(54:37):
even if it's specific, that'llgenerate some questions or some
interest or, Oh, that's cool.
That's what you want to do.
And then you want to cultivate,those with integrity and non
sliminess.

Kyle Soucy (54:52):
Absolutely.
I will definitely check thatbook out because that is
something I need to work on aswell.
Networking is always, it'salways

There's also some

Kyle Soucy (55:00):
never easy.

So we do a LinkedIn live, for never search
alone.
And all those videos areavailable for free on Phyl.
org.
So we can put that link up too.

Kyle Soucy (55:08):
Great.
I will definitely add all thoselinks to the show notes.
And Tamara, this has been sofantastic.
Thank you so much for justspending your time with us, for
sharing your wisdom.
I'm so glad you could be myguest

so much fun and an honor to be here, Kyle.
I think what you're doing isgreat.
And, yeah, just keep tryingeverybody bit by bit, project by
project.

Kyle Soucy (55:30):
right.
Thank you.

you.

Kyle Soucy (55:32):
All right.
That wraps up this episode.
Thanks for joining me.
So do you have a topic or aquestion that you would like us
to explore on a future episodeof the UX consultants lounge?
Perhaps there's an anonymousconsulting story you want to
submit.
If so, click on the link in theshow notes to submit your story

(55:54):
or question from the podcastwebsite.
Until next time, keep thatconsultancy going.
I can't wait to have you back inthe lounge for our next episode.

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Tamara Adlin - The Power of Alignment

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Tamara Adlin - The Power of Alignment