February 2, 2023 • 30 mins
In episode 124, host Eric Dickmann welcomes guest, Natalie Swan, a Fractional CMO at Swan & Associates. Natalie shares her unique perspective on the importance of marketing strategy. She shares insights on the necessity of having a clear marketing strategy and how important it is to implement tactics that align with a company's overarching goals.
Natalie tackles the confusion that often surrounds marketing, emphasizing the need to be resourceful when budgets are limited. She elaborates on the importance of understanding and refining an ideal customer profile to make informed decisions about the most effective marketing tactics. We talk about customer journey mapping and how it can be instrumental in crafting a successful marketing strategy.
This episode is jam-packed with insightful tips and strategies, so don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from one of the best in the industry. Tune in, and let's transform the way you think about marketing strategy!
For more information and access to the resources mentioned in this episode, visit: https://fiveechelon.com/importance-of-marketing-strategy-with-natalie-swan/
A fractional CMO can help build out a comprehensive marketing strategy and execute targeted campaigns designed to increase awareness and generate demand for your business...without the expense of a full-time hire.
The Five Echelon Group - Fractional CMO and strategic marketing advisory services designed for SMBs looking to grow. Learn more at:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Dickmann (00:00):
Today I'm excited to have guest Natalie Swan of
(00:03):
the program.
Natalie is a fractional CMO whoenjoys helping her clients turn
business objectives intostrategic actionable marketing.
She believes that trying to growbusiness without a good
marketing strategy simplydoesn't work.
I couldn't agree more.
Natalie, welcome to the program.
Natalie Swan (00:19):
Hi, Eric.
Thank you so much.
I'm very excited to be here andto have this conversation with
you.
Eric Dickmann (00:24):
I'm excited to have the conversation too,
because I love to talk to otherpeople who are doing fractional
work as well as people who trulyunderstand the value of strategy
and, you know, to kick thingsoff.
That was just a real shortintroduction.
Could you just give us a littlebit of your background?
How did you get into marketing?
What has been your, uh, yourexperience in the field to date?
Natalie Swan (00:44):
Absolutely, yes.
So I studied businessadministration in school.
Um, I went to the University ofOregon, so go ducks.
And four days after I graduated,I ended up taking an internship
in Chicago, um, with a companythere that was incredibly fast.
Growing at the time.
Um, it was a large scale eventproduction company.
And so we were hosting eventsfor tens of thousands of people
(01:06):
all across the United States andinternationally.
And this company was started bytwo, um, two young men in their
late twenties and scaled to tensof millions of dollars very
quickly.
Um, this is when social mediawas just becoming a thing.
So people are taking picturesat, you know, the mud runs and
the music festivals.
And as you can imagine, It wasincredibly fun to be part of, of
(01:28):
marketing, uh, at
Eric Dickmann (01:29):
I can imagine.
Natalie Swan (01:30):
so fast growing.
You know, we're getting a ton ofattention and, and people are
loving it, and so I just reallyfound a knack for telling that
story and for promoting thosethings and because of how fast
the company was growing as well.
You know, I was so new in mycareer and so I got to do
everything.
I was the one who was sendingmarketing emails, writing the
copy, um, posting on Facebook.
(01:53):
But then I also had theopportunity to really work my
way up to work with theexecutive leadership team on
annual strategic planning forour marketing on go to market
for our new brands and helpingbeing part of the brand
development process, um, andjust really seeing what it takes
to be in marketing at a fastgrowing organization.
Why you really need to have thestrategy and the systems to
(02:16):
support that in order to beeffective.
So it was an incredible way tostart my career.
Um, I was there for six yearsand then I ended up moving to
Seattle where I, um, ended upgetting my business license.
And this was in 2017.
And my former employer became myfirst paying client, which I
know we'll talk about a littlebit later.
Um, and so that was the lightbulb moment of, okay, I can do
(02:37):
this virtually, I can do itremote, I can do it part-time
and still be incrediblyeffective with.
Being a marketing leader.
Um, I did end up taking a jobfull-time at a marketing
strategy firm, which wasincredible because that was my
first experience managingclients and really seeing what
that was like.
I got to work for several monthsat a Fortune 50 tech company.
I got to work, um, with reallylarge international brands, and
(03:01):
so it was a completely differentexperience.
Um, but a year into that Ireally realized you.
Uh, I've gotta take a chance onmyself.
I've, I've got to, you know, I'mreally feeling called to be
around entrepreneurs and tosupport other business owners
and so in 2018, I left, um, myfull-time role and this is what
I've been doing ever since.
Eric Dickmann (03:20):
You know, one thing I really love about your
journey is, let's face it,marketing can be a lot of fun.
There are a lot of activitiesthat take place in marketing.
The tactical things that you dothat can really be a lot of fun.
And I know many marketers thatare entering the field get very
excited about some of thosethings.
Right.
But then you sort of went fromthat excitement of a lot of the
tactical execution to thestrategy side and really seeing,
(03:42):
okay, how do all those piecescome together and develop a
strategy?
What, what was your takeawayfrom that, you know, as you, as
you worked on that strategy?
Natalie Swan (03:52):
Yeah.
And it's, it's funny you say thetactics are fun because I, I
agree with you certainly, andI've been part of some fun
tactics, but for me, the, thestrategy is the fun piece.
And, and you know, maybe I'm theoddball with that, but I, I
really find, um, It, it's justfun to see your stuff work,
right?
It's fun when you're gettingtraction with marketing, when
you're building momentum, um,which we all know nothing works
(04:14):
right away.
And so that's sort of theexpectation is that, you know,
we're gonna implement somethingand then we're gonna optimize
it.
And so I found that, um, youknow, it was so much more fun to
be able to workcross-functionally, work among
the brand marketing team, workwith the leadership team when
everyone was so crystal clear.
What are we trying to do and whyare we making these decisions
(04:36):
and how do these, you know, funtactics or, or tests or whatever
we're doing still support theoverall goal and the overall
roadmap of what we're trying toaccomplish.
And I have a really hard time,um, When that piece doesn't
exist, and I see other peoplehave a hard time with it too,
because a lot of companies donot prioritize this the way that
(04:57):
they really should.
And so they end up with, youknow, the spaghetti at the wall
marketing and, you know, oh,this didn't work, so we're gonna
pop over here and spend tens ofthousands more dollars on
something else.
And so, um, that's not fun,right?
So we're not seeing ourmarketing work, um, and we just
sort of keep jumping ship to thenext thing.
Eric Dickmann (05:15):
You're so right because when marketing isn't
working, it's not beingeffective.
There is that stress of spendingall of this money, all this
energy, and not seeing theresults.
And so strategy is so importantand we're gonna dig into that a
little bit more in thisconversation.
But I'm interested too, in yourjourney from going and working
in a corporate environment toworking on your own, you said
that those first couple clientswere clients that you had, uh,
(05:38):
were previous employers, right?
How have you found it sincethen?
Sort of moving beyond thoseinitial connections to actually
having to generate business onyour own?
Natalie Swan (05:47):
Yes.
So, um, yeah, my first payingclient was my former employer.
And then after that, when I leftmy full-time role, I really told
anyone and everyone about mybusiness.
And I think that this is a piecethat, um, when people are new to
starting out, they think, okay,I need to be on social media and
I need to be creating contentand doing all this stuff when.
(06:08):
you really can just make it somuch more simple than that.
And, um, and it's so much moreeffective when it's simpler than
that.
And so I just told everyone, andbecause of the, um, work that
I've done previously, thecompany and the network that
I've been a part of, I knew alot of very entrepreneurial
people, people who joined otherstartups who had started their
own businesses.
And so I just reached out andsaid, You know, I'm, I'm
(06:29):
thinking about doing this.
I'm thinking about starting thismarketing business.
You know, what are some of thepitfalls you face?
What are some of the challengesthat you've gone through?
What is your sort of ideal casefor how this would be, um, what
would be a good solution for youmoving forward?
And so that landed me someadditional clients.
And, you know, from there itreally was just being open to
opportunities.
(06:49):
Um, I like to tell the story.
One of my clients early on in mybusiness as well, was my
chiropractor, and we workedtogether for years because we
had this very effective leadgeneration system that we did
together.
And that just came up because,you know, oh, what do you do?
Oh, I'm a, you know, I'm amarketer and I help small
business with their marketing.
And, and so being open to, um,just those one-off circumstances
(07:13):
can be incredibly effective.
But also, you know of.
Uh, evaluating that, right?
And thinking through, okay,where have I gotten my best
clients?
Where have I gotten my favoriteclients?
What, what was their path tofind me?
And then how can I go ahead and,and optimize that, uh, moving
forward too?
So I, I don't want it to soundlike it was just random, cuz it
(07:33):
certainly wasn't.
Um, and I had tools in place tohelp me, but, um, simplify is
always a good way to go.
Eric Dickmann (07:41):
Have you found that when you talk about
marketing, uh, just in randomconversations with people, that
they tend to sort of put it ina.
They think marketing isadvertising or they think that
marketing is email spam ormarketing Are, you know, those,
those social media posts, do youfind that people are very sort
of narrow in their thinkingabout what the true capabilities
(08:03):
of marketing really might be?
Natalie Swan (08:05):
Yes.
And I, I wouldn't evennecessarily say it narrow, but
more confused
Eric Dickmann (08:12):
Hmm.
Natalie Swan (08:13):
marketers are the loudest people and we all have
different opinions and we allhave different experiences and
things that have worked for us.
And so as you're sort ofnavigating the, the online
landscape and the newdevelopments and the newest
tactic or tool or platform, Themarketers who are championing
those things are gonna be theones telling you how great it
is, right?
(08:33):
They're probably not gonna giveyou the full context.
They're probably not gonna tellyou about, okay, well I tried
this a hundred other things thatdidn't work really well for me,
Um, and so yes, people areconfused by what to pursue.
Um, they're skeptical andrightfully so, and especially
because a lot of times, Youknow, people will pay money for
(08:55):
something that they think isgoing to be the solution to
their problem.
That ends up really not beingthat.
And, and one example I'll giveyou is, um, I spoke to a
business owner who spentthousands of dollars.
She's a brand new business ownerto do like a full brand strategy
package, which I'm a brandmarketer, like I under.
I completely value brand.
It's something that I've placeda ton of importance in my own
(09:17):
business, but you've gotta.
Scrappy when you're, when youdon't have a ton of resources
and you really need tounderstand why am I investing
this money this time right now?
Versus is this something that Icould, you know, do some
experimentation and talk to morepeople and learn a bit more
about what my brand is and whatmy product or service is, and
(09:39):
why that resonates with people,um, not just, you know, and this
is something they're willing topay for versus.
I wanna think of a fun logo andcompany name, which a lot of
people think is, is, is thebrand and the marketing, but
it's so much more extensive thanthat, as you said.
Eric Dickmann (09:57):
There's always this fight against, you know,
rushing to the low-hangingfruit, right?
And doing those things that lookgood, but don't necessarily.
Provide all that mucheffectiveness towards what the
company's goals or objectivesare.
Yeah, I see that all the time.
I'm curious too, as you'veworked on your own, have you
refined your own ideal, uh,customer profile, uh, the types
(10:18):
of businesses that you'retargeting?
Natalie Swan (10:20):
very much so.
Yes.
Um, and, and I think.
As a business owner, you, youshould be constantly doing that
and not in a way.
You know, it's impossible tomove forward or it's impossible
to really like, make decisionsand stick with them, but in a
way that we're part of a worldthat is changing so quickly and
there's always new opportunitiesand, and absolutely.
(10:43):
I mean, I've changed my serviceofferings.
I've changed my l.
You know, written copy.
I've changed the platforms thatI've used, but I've always done
it from a place of understandingwhy am I making this decision?
Like, why is this importantright now?
To sort of check myself that,no, I'm not chasing a new shiny
thing.
(11:03):
This is either gonna help meinvolve, evolve what I've been
doing some way, or continue tobuild momentum in a similar way,
um, rather than just say, oh,it's not working.
Like I better go try somethingelse.
Always taking away the learning.
From before to, you know,whatever next initiative it is
that you're going to pursue.
Eric Dickmann (11:22):
Hmm.
I agree with that.
Yeah.
You're constantly gotta belooking at it, right?
And refining it, seeing what's.
So aub, you narrowed it down.
Do you focus mostly on b2b, b2c,any target industries?
What's a sweet spot for you?
Natalie Swan (11:34):
The sweet spot for me.
Um, I, I talk about it a littlebit differently, but I, I say 3
million, um, dollar companiesand up, so I.
I am not most effective asmarketing resource number one.
I have worked with microbusiness owners and solopreneurs
before, but as you know, Ericit, it takes a lot to.
Get the marketing systems up andrunning.
(11:55):
And so I tend to work best whenI come into a situation with a
company that either has agrowing marketing team, you
know, perhaps they have, um, a,a more junior person in place
who's doing a lot of theexecution.
Um, maybe they're working withan agency or they have some, um,
contractors or freelancers thatare supporting their marketing
and what they lack.
(12:15):
How are all these disparateactivities really coming
together to support the businessgoals?
Because that's what's so oftenmissed.
And I've had, you know, clientprojects that I come into and,
and ask, you know, okay, wellfrom leadership, like what is
the direction of, of companypriorities?
What do we need to be focused onwith the marketing in order to
(12:35):
support those things?
Cause marketing is a servicefunction, right?
Like, like we, we don't existwithout the company.
You know, roadmap or, or NorthStar in order to, to execute
towards.
And so, um, so that's just suchan important piece of it is
understanding why are we doingthese things?
Um, and as based on that, what,um, what's gonna make the most
(12:58):
sense?
So I really like to come intoclient situations where they
have some type of marketing inplace and they maybe are gonna
have a new launch or a newinitiative or a, a go to market
that they need to scale.
And I can come in and, and workwith leadership on how are we
communicating our goals, whatare we actually trying to do?
And then with marketing ongreat.
(13:18):
Now we need a system and animplementation plan to actually
make it happen.
Eric Dickmann (13:24):
I love that and I think it's so important.
I'm curious as you engage withclients, Pushback.
Do you get, well, strategy isimportant, but we just need a
new website right now.
We can look at the strategyafter that.
Do you or, or some similar kindof conversation.
Do you hear that a lot?
Natalie Swan (13:41):
So I hear that and that is a, um, I'm not gonna say
a red flag, but that is a signalto me that maybe I'm not a great
fit for that project.
Um, I've definitely taken onprojects in the past where, you
know, especially gettingstarted, started out like, yeah,
I'll, I'll help you out with asmaller project and, and, you
(14:03):
know, I'll talk to the businessowner about, okay, well we can
start here, but we really needto, in order to truly be
effective, we actually have todo these things over here as
well.
And so I've just kind of learnedthat, um, I really enjoy
partnering with clients who seethe value in having a strategy.
You know, it, it takes a lot tocome into an organization and.
(14:24):
Have to then convince everyonewhy you're valuable and, and why
you should be there and what youcan do for them.
But I've really been sofortunate and I think it is.
Part of how I built my business,you know, starting with people
who, who have seen what I can doand who've worked with me before
and who know sort of how Ioperate and can vouch for that.
Um, that when I come into aclient project, they, they're
(14:45):
ready and they're excited andthey say awesome, like, great.
And I'm able to really step inand start leading meetings and
start asking for what I know Ineed, um, and not feel, um, like
bad about that or not feel like,you know, any hesitation there.
We're coming in on the samepage, but Eric, I, it is so
common, and I'm sure you hearthis too, that there's a, a
(15:07):
whole lot of people out therewho.
You know, strategy is for later.
We don't have time, we don'thave resources.
You know, it's, it's, we'vegotta get out this press
release, we've gotta send outthis marketing email.
But that ends up wasting so muchmore money and time than if you
just took a little bit of timeto ensure everyone's on the same
(15:28):
page.
And yes, in fact, everythingthat we're doing really is
prioritized to align with whatwe're trying to do as a
business.
Eric Dickmann (15:36):
I completely agree with that.
It does pay to take the time toreally develop out a strategy.
One of the other things that Isee a lot, and I'm curious as to
what your thoughts are here, iscome into a business and we
start talking about strategy.
And they say, oh yeah, we have astrategy.
Here's our Excel sheet.
That is basically the budget andthese are all the things that
we're doing and how much moneywe've assigned, and maybe
(15:57):
there's a column for how manyleads we've generated from each
one of these things.
Ta-da.
We have a strategy, but that'snot really a strategy, that's a
budget.
Natalie Swan (16:06):
Yeah, that's a budget.
And, and, and in addition tothat, a list of tactics.
It'll be like, oh yeah, we're,you know, we're working with an
influencer team or we're, youknow, doing all these
partnerships or, you know,whatever.
And, and, um, great.
Like, cool, let's, you know,let's keep the ball running on
those things.
If they are generating sales,if, you know, if we know that
(16:27):
they're working and there's sometype of, of system behind them,
but you still need that strategypiece because what, what happens
in those situations a lot oftimes that I see and, and I'd be
curious to hear your thoughts aswell.
maybe one of the things isworking really well, but then
there's all of this, theseresources being spent spread so
thin across all these otherinitiatives that aren't
(16:48):
producing.
And without a strategy, you'renot able to say, Hey, we've been
spending a lot of hours andthousands of dollars on this
channel and it's not reallygetting us anywhere.
Like maybe we should reallocatethat elsewhere into what is
working or into a new test orsomething.
And that strategy is, is sort ofa checks and balances that helps
(17:09):
you make those decisionseffectively and also keeps
everyone on the same pagebecause a lot of what I hear as
well, and and c is, you know,the leadership team and, and
other cross-functionalexecutives wanna know what is
marketing doing and, and what isyour plan of coming and how is
it gonna affect us?
And the strategy is what?
(17:31):
everyone understand that storyand set expectations for what's
to come.
So
Eric Dickmann (17:38):
Well, I, one of my favorite examples, cause I
think it's easy to understand isa lot of companies, if they
haven't already, they want toget more into social media.
It's very common for them tohave maybe a junior level person
on their team who's doing socialmedia posts.
And you go in and look at themand there's a post that says
Happy New Year.
And one that says, happy MartinLuther King Day and Happy
(17:58):
Valentine's Day.
And the list goes on and on.
And that's.
Those are nice, feel good posts,but what's the strategy?
What's, what are you trying toaccomplish?
You've spent man hours andeffort to put together a post,
maybe create some graphics, putsome things out.
What is the point?
What are you trying toaccomplish by doing that?
Is that just part of a broadersocial media strategy where
(18:18):
you're actually just trying tokeep your audience engaged?
Or is that the strategy just toput little platitudes out on, on
social media hoping that peoplecare?
That's a basic example, butthat's one of the things that I
think people see is why are youdoing something?
You can do a lot of things, butwhat's the purpose?
What are you trying to get?
Natalie Swan (18:38):
Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm, for anyone listening, I'm
like smiling really big as Ericis talking cuz I just I see this
all the time.
And that is, that is a check thebox marketing activity.
And, and, and people think, oh,I need to be visible on social
media cuz people are on socialmedia and so I need to have a
presence.
This is a really good time toask yourself, what is my actual
(18:59):
client or customer journey?
Are people truly going toInstagram?
Scrolling through the billionsof other highly engaged and you
know, highly thought throughpieces of content landing on
your Happy New Year post on yourcompany page, clicking through
and then buying something.
No, that's not happening.
(19:19):
And, and this is very common,whether they have a junior
person, you know, internally doit, or they maybe hire a
marketing intern or they, youknow, are working with a
freelancer who's, you know, the,the deal is, okay, we'll post
for you three times a week on Xnumber of channels.
That's not really doing anythingfrom a business perspective in
most cases.
And a lot of times what I seetoo, You know, there'll be five
(19:42):
likes on the post and, and it'semployees of the company.
Like, you know, so, so why, whyare you doing that?
And there may be a case, theremay be a strategy where
someone's listening and saying,well, we know exactly how that
impacts our business and that'swhy we keep doing it.
But I would say the, the vastmajority of people who are
executing in that way, you know,it is probably wasting resources
(20:06):
to do it.
And it's probably not gettinganywhere meaningful.
Eric Dickmann (20:10):
Yeah, and I see this a lot with things like SEO
as well.
You know, companies can come inand say, we're gonna help you
out with your seo and you know,you sell network routers and now
you rank for being a pastrychef.
Okay, that's great, but.
Does that help your business?
Is anybody searching for pastrychefs that sell network routers?
Right?
It it, it's, are the keywordsyou're ranking for important to
(20:32):
your business?
Is it driving traffic?
What's the outcome that you'retrying to achieve?
And I think that's why astrategy person is so important
to a business, because noteverybody in the management team
is marketing savvy, nor shouldthey be right.
That's a job for a marketingspecialist, and that's where
somebody who can come in andlead that strategy effort can
really say, Hey, these are thekinds of things that you need to
(20:54):
watch out for.
This is the purpose of us doingthis.
This is why investing thesedollars is an important
investment for your business.
Natalie Swan (21:01):
Yes.
And I'll take it even a stepfurther with the SEO example and
also bring that back to what isyour customer journey.
People miss this.
People don't go through theirmarketing channels as their
ideal customer Would, you know,how are they finding me?
What is the button they'reclicking?
What does it say on the page?
How easy is it to find?
What happens next?
(21:23):
And this very simple process,and I highly encourage anyone
listening who is active onsocial media or running seo,
like, do this exercise and, andbe really critical of it.
And, or even better bringsomeone in to objectively do it.
Bring in an ideal client orsomeone like that that can sort
of help you refine what thatprocess is.
I was once speaking to an seo,um, expert and you know, he saw
(21:48):
a lot of what you just mentionedas well, where it's like, oh,
we're ranking for all.
You know, keywords and they atglance seemed relevant, but it's
not how people actually usesearch engines.
I, I think one of the exampleswas like, you know, best, you
know, we'll go with pastry chefin area code, you know, 1, 2, 3,
(22:09):
4, 5, no one searches that way.
They search for pastry chef nearme, or, you know, pastry chef,
uh, Denver or something likethat.
And so it's, it's taking thetime to be really critical.
does this actually make sense?
Um, and breaking it down reallyin, in simplifying it in that
way can be an incrediblymeaningful exercise.
Eric Dickmann (22:31):
I, I love the way you brought that up because you
know, a buyer's journey isimportant.
It's really.
Critical, I think for anybusiness to understand how
buyers find you, what the buyingprocess looks like.
You know, what are upsellopportunities down the road to
really understand that fulljourney.
But like you said, it's not likeevery buyer goes through the
same journey, in exactly thesame sequence of steps, right?
(22:53):
People come in and out at alldifferent sorts of places, and
so you really have to understandhow they're interacting with
their organization and what thepurpose of each tactic is,
because you never know ifsomebody's coming in on that
tactic.
Or a different one,
Natalie Swan (23:06):
Yep.
Yep.
Eric Dickmann (23:08):
which makes attribution so hard.
Right.
That's one of the challenges inmarketing.
Natalie Swan (23:12):
It does.
And and that's one of the thingstoo, that I think people hear
something like that and theythink, oh, that means I need to
be everywhere.
Right?
Because we don't know wherepeople are coming from.
But that's not the case, right?
It's, it's identifying whatthose channels are, where you
are getting invisible, right?
And getting in front of newpeople and, and really, um,
Introducing them to, to yourbrand or to your business, and
(23:34):
then what happens next?
Well, they're gonna wanna learna little bit more and they're
want gonna wanna better educatethemselves and explore, you
know, is this company legitimateand where are some testimonials
and or case studies?
And so it, you know, it's notthat you have to be everywhere,
it's that you have to thinkabout.
Uh, think about that journey,like you said, and, and, and
consider what each step of thatlooks like for, for the person
(23:57):
who you want to, to hire you orcome into your store or
whatever, whatever it is.
Eric Dickmann (24:02):
And this is the whole importance of a strategy
exercise.
Really it's asking these kindsof questions.
It's digging in deeper, reallyunderstanding, you know, what
your journey is for your buyers,and then what are the tactics
that are needed to support it.
So I think that's so critical.
If a company is out there andthey're saying, well, I do have
some problems with my marketing.
I'm not getting the kind of leadflow that I need, or, uh, I'm
(24:24):
not getting the right kind of.
what do you say to them in termsof engaging with like a
fractional executive?
Why?
Why would they go down thatpath?
Natalie Swan (24:33):
Yeah, so what I would say to them first, Try to
figure out to some extent whatis and isn't working.
And this doesn't have to be avery built out, you know,
multi-week exercise, but just belogical about it, and ask
yourself, where are customerscoming from?
You know, how do we know that?
Um, and, and what tools are wecurrently using that we're
(24:55):
seeing be most effective interms of why a company.
Could consider hiring afractional executive.
Let's talk about some of thealternatives they have.
So you could hire a full-time,you know, high level marketing
leader, you'll probably spendmonths looking for this person.
You'll have to pay them a sixfigure, multiple, six figure
(25:15):
salary benefits and hope that itworks out right Like that's,
that's what that looks like, um,to get that level of experience
in someone.
Worked probably in a variety ofindustries, at a variety of
companies and sort of seen thisagain and again.
You can hire an agency, which Iknow that a lot of, um, a lot of
(25:35):
companies out there do work withmarketing agencies and, and that
can be effective.
But keep in mind that agenciestend to have expertise in what
it is exactly that they do.
Okay.
They're pulling the levers onthe back end of, of Google and
Facebook, and they know how tooptimize.
They do not necessarily deeplyunderstand your business
(25:59):
objectives, and I've seen thisgo wrong time and time again,
Eric.
I'd be interested to hear, youknow, your input on this, but
there is.
Very easily misalignment betweenwhat leadership thinks is
happening and wants to happenand what the agency is actually
executing to.
And I've also unfortunatelyworked with agencies where, you
(26:19):
know, even asking for somethingas basic as you know, what is
your plan to optimize?
What is your plan to test andlearn?
And there's nothing likestrategic and methodical.
that's there and, and that's akey piece of working with, with
paid advertising is how am Igoing to improve this over time?
Because you, that's why havingthe data through those platforms
(26:41):
is so important.
Um, so, so that's anotheroption.
And, and, or you're workingmaybe with like freelancers or
contractors who can.
Incredible, um, you know,resources to help with some
execution.
Like maybe you need a copywriterto help you write your website
content.
Once you have your strategy,maybe you need someone to help
(27:03):
you design the, the display ads,something very tactical.
That, again, supports the highlevel strategy.
So what you get with, with afractional leader is someone who
has the strategic experience.
They understand why it'simportant to have the full
roadmap, to have the fullunderstanding of what we're
trying to do and how it supportsthe business, and can really,
(27:25):
um, work among.
The agencies, the leadershipteam, the other, you know, third
party resources and alsocross-functionally internally
with the company to really makesure that everything is like,
humming along in a way thatmakes sense, And where everyone
is, is, like I mentioned before,building that momentum versus
(27:47):
throwing things at the wall and,and being really, um, fragmented
in what's happening.
Eric Dickmann (27:52):
Yeah, I think that's a good overview.
That's a good way to put it.
And look, you know, we asmarketers, we work with.
Freelancers and agency partnersall the time, and, and they're
critical to the things that wedo, but oftentimes, you know,
they're, they're packaging upservices, and that's not
necessarily a strategy thatsupports a strategy, but that in
and of itself is not a strategy,and that's why working with a
(28:13):
marketing professional, Afractional is such a great way
to sort of manage those partner,those agency, those freelance
relationships to get thatstrategy executed.
Natalie, I know we're sort ofrunning towards the end of our
time here, but before we closeout, I'd love it if you could
just tell a little bit moreabout where people can find you,
whether it's LinkedIn, on theweb, if you have any offers that
(28:34):
you wanna give to the audience.
I'm gonna give you the floor toexplain that.
Natalie Swan (28:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
I am primarily on LinkedIn atNatalie b Swan.
Um, I've.
Currently have a hot pink bubblebehind my profile Pick.
So I'm pretty easy to find.
But go ahead, connect with methere.
Send me a message.
Um, I'm always happy to toconnect and meet you, and you
can also find meonline@nataliebswan.com and
learn more about my services andbusiness and any free offers I
(29:02):
have there.
Eric Dickmann (29:04):
That's awesome.
I really appreciate it.
I love these kinds ofdiscussions.
I especially love talking aboutstrategy with somebody who's
passionate about it and has gotsuch an interesting background
like you do.
Natalie, I really appreciate youbeing on the show today.
I will make sure that everythingyou mentioned there, we've got
linked up in the show notes sothat people can find you.
Thank you so much for your time.
Natalie Swan (29:22):
Absolutely Eric.
Thank you so much for having me.
Uh, this was such a pleasure,
Eric Dickmann (29:26):
Great.
Thanks.
Today I'm excited to have guest Natalie Swan of
(00:03):
the program.
Natalie is a fractional CMO whoenjoys helping her clients turn
business objectives intostrategic actionable marketing.
She believes that trying to growbusiness without a good
marketing strategy simplydoesn't work.
I couldn't agree more.
Natalie, welcome to the program.
Natalie Swan (00:19):
Hi, Eric.
Thank you so much.
I'm very excited to be here andto have this conversation with
you.
Eric Dickmann (00:24):
I'm excited to have the conversation too,
because I love to talk to otherpeople who are doing fractional
work as well as people who trulyunderstand the value of strategy
and, you know, to kick thingsoff.
That was just a real shortintroduction.
Could you just give us a littlebit of your background?
How did you get into marketing?
What has been your, uh, yourexperience in the field to date?
Natalie Swan (00:44):
Absolutely, yes.
So I studied businessadministration in school.
Um, I went to the University ofOregon, so go ducks.
And four days after I graduated,I ended up taking an internship
in Chicago, um, with a companythere that was incredibly fast.
Growing at the time.
Um, it was a large scale eventproduction company.
And so we were hosting eventsfor tens of thousands of people
(01:06):
all across the United States andinternationally.
And this company was started bytwo, um, two young men in their
late twenties and scaled to tensof millions of dollars very
quickly.
Um, this is when social mediawas just becoming a thing.
So people are taking picturesat, you know, the mud runs and
the music festivals.
And as you can imagine, It wasincredibly fun to be part of, of
(01:28):
marketing, uh, at
Eric Dickmann (01:29):
I can imagine.
Natalie Swan (01:30):
so fast growing.
You know, we're getting a ton ofattention and, and people are
loving it, and so I just reallyfound a knack for telling that
story and for promoting thosethings and because of how fast
the company was growing as well.
You know, I was so new in mycareer and so I got to do
everything.
I was the one who was sendingmarketing emails, writing the
copy, um, posting on Facebook.
(01:53):
But then I also had theopportunity to really work my
way up to work with theexecutive leadership team on
annual strategic planning forour marketing on go to market
for our new brands and helpingbeing part of the brand
development process, um, andjust really seeing what it takes
to be in marketing at a fastgrowing organization.
Why you really need to have thestrategy and the systems to
(02:16):
support that in order to beeffective.
So it was an incredible way tostart my career.
Um, I was there for six yearsand then I ended up moving to
Seattle where I, um, ended upgetting my business license.
And this was in 2017.
And my former employer became myfirst paying client, which I
know we'll talk about a littlebit later.
Um, and so that was the lightbulb moment of, okay, I can do
(02:37):
this virtually, I can do itremote, I can do it part-time
and still be incrediblyeffective with.
Being a marketing leader.
Um, I did end up taking a jobfull-time at a marketing
strategy firm, which wasincredible because that was my
first experience managingclients and really seeing what
that was like.
I got to work for several monthsat a Fortune 50 tech company.
I got to work, um, with reallylarge international brands, and
(03:01):
so it was a completely differentexperience.
Um, but a year into that Ireally realized you.
Uh, I've gotta take a chance onmyself.
I've, I've got to, you know, I'mreally feeling called to be
around entrepreneurs and tosupport other business owners
and so in 2018, I left, um, myfull-time role and this is what
I've been doing ever since.
Eric Dickmann (03:20):
You know, one thing I really love about your
journey is, let's face it,marketing can be a lot of fun.
There are a lot of activitiesthat take place in marketing.
The tactical things that you dothat can really be a lot of fun.
And I know many marketers thatare entering the field get very
excited about some of thosethings.
Right.
But then you sort of went fromthat excitement of a lot of the
tactical execution to thestrategy side and really seeing,
(03:42):
okay, how do all those piecescome together and develop a
strategy?
What, what was your takeawayfrom that, you know, as you, as
you worked on that strategy?
Natalie Swan (03:52):
Yeah.
And it's, it's funny you say thetactics are fun because I, I
agree with you certainly, andI've been part of some fun
tactics, but for me, the, thestrategy is the fun piece.
And, and you know, maybe I'm theoddball with that, but I, I
really find, um, It, it's justfun to see your stuff work,
right?
It's fun when you're gettingtraction with marketing, when
you're building momentum, um,which we all know nothing works
(04:14):
right away.
And so that's sort of theexpectation is that, you know,
we're gonna implement somethingand then we're gonna optimize
it.
And so I found that, um, youknow, it was so much more fun to
be able to workcross-functionally, work among
the brand marketing team, workwith the leadership team when
everyone was so crystal clear.
What are we trying to do and whyare we making these decisions
(04:36):
and how do these, you know, funtactics or, or tests or whatever
we're doing still support theoverall goal and the overall
roadmap of what we're trying toaccomplish.
And I have a really hard time,um, When that piece doesn't
exist, and I see other peoplehave a hard time with it too,
because a lot of companies donot prioritize this the way that
(04:57):
they really should.
And so they end up with, youknow, the spaghetti at the wall
marketing and, you know, oh,this didn't work, so we're gonna
pop over here and spend tens ofthousands more dollars on
something else.
And so, um, that's not fun,right?
So we're not seeing ourmarketing work, um, and we just
sort of keep jumping ship to thenext thing.
Eric Dickmann (05:15):
You're so right because when marketing isn't
working, it's not beingeffective.
There is that stress of spendingall of this money, all this
energy, and not seeing theresults.
And so strategy is so importantand we're gonna dig into that a
little bit more in thisconversation.
But I'm interested too, in yourjourney from going and working
in a corporate environment toworking on your own, you said
that those first couple clientswere clients that you had, uh,
(05:38):
were previous employers, right?
How have you found it sincethen?
Sort of moving beyond thoseinitial connections to actually
having to generate business onyour own?
Natalie Swan (05:47):
Yes.
So, um, yeah, my first payingclient was my former employer.
And then after that, when I leftmy full-time role, I really told
anyone and everyone about mybusiness.
And I think that this is a piecethat, um, when people are new to
starting out, they think, okay,I need to be on social media and
I need to be creating contentand doing all this stuff when.
(06:08):
you really can just make it somuch more simple than that.
And, um, and it's so much moreeffective when it's simpler than
that.
And so I just told everyone, andbecause of the, um, work that
I've done previously, thecompany and the network that
I've been a part of, I knew alot of very entrepreneurial
people, people who joined otherstartups who had started their
own businesses.
And so I just reached out andsaid, You know, I'm, I'm
(06:29):
thinking about doing this.
I'm thinking about starting thismarketing business.
You know, what are some of thepitfalls you face?
What are some of the challengesthat you've gone through?
What is your sort of ideal casefor how this would be, um, what
would be a good solution for youmoving forward?
And so that landed me someadditional clients.
And, you know, from there itreally was just being open to
opportunities.
(06:49):
Um, I like to tell the story.
One of my clients early on in mybusiness as well, was my
chiropractor, and we workedtogether for years because we
had this very effective leadgeneration system that we did
together.
And that just came up because,you know, oh, what do you do?
Oh, I'm a, you know, I'm amarketer and I help small
business with their marketing.
And, and so being open to, um,just those one-off circumstances
(07:13):
can be incredibly effective.
But also, you know of.
Uh, evaluating that, right?
And thinking through, okay,where have I gotten my best
clients?
Where have I gotten my favoriteclients?
What, what was their path tofind me?
And then how can I go ahead and,and optimize that, uh, moving
forward too?
So I, I don't want it to soundlike it was just random, cuz it
(07:33):
certainly wasn't.
Um, and I had tools in place tohelp me, but, um, simplify is
always a good way to go.
Eric Dickmann (07:41):
Have you found that when you talk about
marketing, uh, just in randomconversations with people, that
they tend to sort of put it ina.
They think marketing isadvertising or they think that
marketing is email spam ormarketing Are, you know, those,
those social media posts, do youfind that people are very sort
of narrow in their thinkingabout what the true capabilities
(08:03):
of marketing really might be?
Natalie Swan (08:05):
Yes.
And I, I wouldn't evennecessarily say it narrow, but
more confused
Eric Dickmann (08:12):
Hmm.
Natalie Swan (08:13):
marketers are the loudest people and we all have
different opinions and we allhave different experiences and
things that have worked for us.
And so as you're sort ofnavigating the, the online
landscape and the newdevelopments and the newest
tactic or tool or platform, Themarketers who are championing
those things are gonna be theones telling you how great it
is, right?
(08:33):
They're probably not gonna giveyou the full context.
They're probably not gonna tellyou about, okay, well I tried
this a hundred other things thatdidn't work really well for me,
Um, and so yes, people areconfused by what to pursue.
Um, they're skeptical andrightfully so, and especially
because a lot of times, Youknow, people will pay money for
(08:55):
something that they think isgoing to be the solution to
their problem.
That ends up really not beingthat.
And, and one example I'll giveyou is, um, I spoke to a
business owner who spentthousands of dollars.
She's a brand new business ownerto do like a full brand strategy
package, which I'm a brandmarketer, like I under.
I completely value brand.
It's something that I've placeda ton of importance in my own
(09:17):
business, but you've gotta.
Scrappy when you're, when youdon't have a ton of resources
and you really need tounderstand why am I investing
this money this time right now?
Versus is this something that Icould, you know, do some
experimentation and talk to morepeople and learn a bit more
about what my brand is and whatmy product or service is, and
(09:39):
why that resonates with people,um, not just, you know, and this
is something they're willing topay for versus.
I wanna think of a fun logo andcompany name, which a lot of
people think is, is, is thebrand and the marketing, but
it's so much more extensive thanthat, as you said.
Eric Dickmann (09:57):
There's always this fight against, you know,
rushing to the low-hangingfruit, right?
And doing those things that lookgood, but don't necessarily.
Provide all that mucheffectiveness towards what the
company's goals or objectivesare.
Yeah, I see that all the time.
I'm curious too, as you'veworked on your own, have you
refined your own ideal, uh,customer profile, uh, the types
(10:18):
of businesses that you'retargeting?
Natalie Swan (10:20):
very much so.
Yes.
Um, and, and I think.
As a business owner, you, youshould be constantly doing that
and not in a way.
You know, it's impossible tomove forward or it's impossible
to really like, make decisionsand stick with them, but in a
way that we're part of a worldthat is changing so quickly and
there's always new opportunitiesand, and absolutely.
(10:43):
I mean, I've changed my serviceofferings.
I've changed my l.
You know, written copy.
I've changed the platforms thatI've used, but I've always done
it from a place of understandingwhy am I making this decision?
Like, why is this importantright now?
To sort of check myself that,no, I'm not chasing a new shiny
thing.
(11:03):
This is either gonna help meinvolve, evolve what I've been
doing some way, or continue tobuild momentum in a similar way,
um, rather than just say, oh,it's not working.
Like I better go try somethingelse.
Always taking away the learning.
From before to, you know,whatever next initiative it is
that you're going to pursue.
Eric Dickmann (11:22):
Hmm.
I agree with that.
Yeah.
You're constantly gotta belooking at it, right?
And refining it, seeing what's.
So aub, you narrowed it down.
Do you focus mostly on b2b, b2c,any target industries?
What's a sweet spot for you?
Natalie Swan (11:34):
The sweet spot for me.
Um, I, I talk about it a littlebit differently, but I, I say 3
million, um, dollar companiesand up, so I.
I am not most effective asmarketing resource number one.
I have worked with microbusiness owners and solopreneurs
before, but as you know, Ericit, it takes a lot to.
Get the marketing systems up andrunning.
(11:55):
And so I tend to work best whenI come into a situation with a
company that either has agrowing marketing team, you
know, perhaps they have, um, a,a more junior person in place
who's doing a lot of theexecution.
Um, maybe they're working withan agency or they have some, um,
contractors or freelancers thatare supporting their marketing
and what they lack.
(12:15):
How are all these disparateactivities really coming
together to support the businessgoals?
Because that's what's so oftenmissed.
And I've had, you know, clientprojects that I come into and,
and ask, you know, okay, wellfrom leadership, like what is
the direction of, of companypriorities?
What do we need to be focused onwith the marketing in order to
(12:35):
support those things?
Cause marketing is a servicefunction, right?
Like, like we, we don't existwithout the company.
You know, roadmap or, or NorthStar in order to, to execute
towards.
And so, um, so that's just suchan important piece of it is
understanding why are we doingthese things?
Um, and as based on that, what,um, what's gonna make the most
(12:58):
sense?
So I really like to come intoclient situations where they
have some type of marketing inplace and they maybe are gonna
have a new launch or a newinitiative or a, a go to market
that they need to scale.
And I can come in and, and workwith leadership on how are we
communicating our goals, whatare we actually trying to do?
And then with marketing ongreat.
(13:18):
Now we need a system and animplementation plan to actually
make it happen.
Eric Dickmann (13:24):
I love that and I think it's so important.
I'm curious as you engage withclients, Pushback.
Do you get, well, strategy isimportant, but we just need a
new website right now.
We can look at the strategyafter that.
Do you or, or some similar kindof conversation.
Do you hear that a lot?
Natalie Swan (13:41):
So I hear that and that is a, um, I'm not gonna say
a red flag, but that is a signalto me that maybe I'm not a great
fit for that project.
Um, I've definitely taken onprojects in the past where, you
know, especially gettingstarted, started out like, yeah,
I'll, I'll help you out with asmaller project and, and, you
(14:03):
know, I'll talk to the businessowner about, okay, well we can
start here, but we really needto, in order to truly be
effective, we actually have todo these things over here as
well.
And so I've just kind of learnedthat, um, I really enjoy
partnering with clients who seethe value in having a strategy.
You know, it, it takes a lot tocome into an organization and.
(14:24):
Have to then convince everyonewhy you're valuable and, and why
you should be there and what youcan do for them.
But I've really been sofortunate and I think it is.
Part of how I built my business,you know, starting with people
who, who have seen what I can doand who've worked with me before
and who know sort of how Ioperate and can vouch for that.
Um, that when I come into aclient project, they, they're
(14:45):
ready and they're excited andthey say awesome, like, great.
And I'm able to really step inand start leading meetings and
start asking for what I know Ineed, um, and not feel, um, like
bad about that or not feel like,you know, any hesitation there.
We're coming in on the samepage, but Eric, I, it is so
common, and I'm sure you hearthis too, that there's a, a
(15:07):
whole lot of people out therewho.
You know, strategy is for later.
We don't have time, we don'thave resources.
You know, it's, it's, we'vegotta get out this press
release, we've gotta send outthis marketing email.
But that ends up wasting so muchmore money and time than if you
just took a little bit of timeto ensure everyone's on the same
(15:28):
page.
And yes, in fact, everythingthat we're doing really is
prioritized to align with whatwe're trying to do as a
business.
Eric Dickmann (15:36):
I completely agree with that.
It does pay to take the time toreally develop out a strategy.
One of the other things that Isee a lot, and I'm curious as to
what your thoughts are here, iscome into a business and we
start talking about strategy.
And they say, oh yeah, we have astrategy.
Here's our Excel sheet.
That is basically the budget andthese are all the things that
we're doing and how much moneywe've assigned, and maybe
(15:57):
there's a column for how manyleads we've generated from each
one of these things.
Ta-da.
We have a strategy, but that'snot really a strategy, that's a
budget.
Natalie Swan (16:06):
Yeah, that's a budget.
And, and, and in addition tothat, a list of tactics.
It'll be like, oh yeah, we're,you know, we're working with an
influencer team or we're, youknow, doing all these
partnerships or, you know,whatever.
And, and, um, great.
Like, cool, let's, you know,let's keep the ball running on
those things.
If they are generating sales,if, you know, if we know that
(16:27):
they're working and there's sometype of, of system behind them,
but you still need that strategypiece because what, what happens
in those situations a lot oftimes that I see and, and I'd be
curious to hear your thoughts aswell.
maybe one of the things isworking really well, but then
there's all of this, theseresources being spent spread so
thin across all these otherinitiatives that aren't
(16:48):
producing.
And without a strategy, you'renot able to say, Hey, we've been
spending a lot of hours andthousands of dollars on this
channel and it's not reallygetting us anywhere.
Like maybe we should reallocatethat elsewhere into what is
working or into a new test orsomething.
And that strategy is, is sort ofa checks and balances that helps
(17:09):
you make those decisionseffectively and also keeps
everyone on the same pagebecause a lot of what I hear as
well, and and c is, you know,the leadership team and, and
other cross-functionalexecutives wanna know what is
marketing doing and, and what isyour plan of coming and how is
it gonna affect us?
And the strategy is what?
(17:31):
everyone understand that storyand set expectations for what's
to come.
So
Eric Dickmann (17:38):
Well, I, one of my favorite examples, cause I
think it's easy to understand isa lot of companies, if they
haven't already, they want toget more into social media.
It's very common for them tohave maybe a junior level person
on their team who's doing socialmedia posts.
And you go in and look at themand there's a post that says
Happy New Year.
And one that says, happy MartinLuther King Day and Happy
(17:58):
Valentine's Day.
And the list goes on and on.
And that's.
Those are nice, feel good posts,but what's the strategy?
What's, what are you trying toaccomplish?
You've spent man hours andeffort to put together a post,
maybe create some graphics, putsome things out.
What is the point?
What are you trying toaccomplish by doing that?
Is that just part of a broadersocial media strategy where
(18:18):
you're actually just trying tokeep your audience engaged?
Or is that the strategy just toput little platitudes out on, on
social media hoping that peoplecare?
That's a basic example, butthat's one of the things that I
think people see is why are youdoing something?
You can do a lot of things, butwhat's the purpose?
What are you trying to get?
Natalie Swan (18:38):
Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm, for anyone listening, I'm
like smiling really big as Ericis talking cuz I just I see this
all the time.
And that is, that is a check thebox marketing activity.
And, and, and people think, oh,I need to be visible on social
media cuz people are on socialmedia and so I need to have a
presence.
This is a really good time toask yourself, what is my actual
(18:59):
client or customer journey?
Are people truly going toInstagram?
Scrolling through the billionsof other highly engaged and you
know, highly thought throughpieces of content landing on
your Happy New Year post on yourcompany page, clicking through
and then buying something.
No, that's not happening.
(19:19):
And, and this is very common,whether they have a junior
person, you know, internally doit, or they maybe hire a
marketing intern or they, youknow, are working with a
freelancer who's, you know, the,the deal is, okay, we'll post
for you three times a week on Xnumber of channels.
That's not really doing anythingfrom a business perspective in
most cases.
And a lot of times what I seetoo, You know, there'll be five
(19:42):
likes on the post and, and it'semployees of the company.
Like, you know, so, so why, whyare you doing that?
And there may be a case, theremay be a strategy where
someone's listening and saying,well, we know exactly how that
impacts our business and that'swhy we keep doing it.
But I would say the, the vastmajority of people who are
executing in that way, you know,it is probably wasting resources
(20:06):
to do it.
And it's probably not gettinganywhere meaningful.
Eric Dickmann (20:10):
Yeah, and I see this a lot with things like SEO
as well.
You know, companies can come inand say, we're gonna help you
out with your seo and you know,you sell network routers and now
you rank for being a pastrychef.
Okay, that's great, but.
Does that help your business?
Is anybody searching for pastrychefs that sell network routers?
Right?
It it, it's, are the keywordsyou're ranking for important to
(20:32):
your business?
Is it driving traffic?
What's the outcome that you'retrying to achieve?
And I think that's why astrategy person is so important
to a business, because noteverybody in the management team
is marketing savvy, nor shouldthey be right.
That's a job for a marketingspecialist, and that's where
somebody who can come in andlead that strategy effort can
really say, Hey, these are thekinds of things that you need to
(20:54):
watch out for.
This is the purpose of us doingthis.
This is why investing thesedollars is an important
investment for your business.
Natalie Swan (21:01):
Yes.
And I'll take it even a stepfurther with the SEO example and
also bring that back to what isyour customer journey.
People miss this.
People don't go through theirmarketing channels as their
ideal customer Would, you know,how are they finding me?
What is the button they'reclicking?
What does it say on the page?
How easy is it to find?
What happens next?
(21:23):
And this very simple process,and I highly encourage anyone
listening who is active onsocial media or running seo,
like, do this exercise and, andbe really critical of it.
And, or even better bringsomeone in to objectively do it.
Bring in an ideal client orsomeone like that that can sort
of help you refine what thatprocess is.
I was once speaking to an seo,um, expert and you know, he saw
(21:48):
a lot of what you just mentionedas well, where it's like, oh,
we're ranking for all.
You know, keywords and they atglance seemed relevant, but it's
not how people actually usesearch engines.
I, I think one of the exampleswas like, you know, best, you
know, we'll go with pastry chefin area code, you know, 1, 2, 3,
(22:09):
4, 5, no one searches that way.
They search for pastry chef nearme, or, you know, pastry chef,
uh, Denver or something likethat.
And so it's, it's taking thetime to be really critical.
does this actually make sense?
Um, and breaking it down reallyin, in simplifying it in that
way can be an incrediblymeaningful exercise.
Eric Dickmann (22:31):
I, I love the way you brought that up because you
know, a buyer's journey isimportant.
It's really.
Critical, I think for anybusiness to understand how
buyers find you, what the buyingprocess looks like.
You know, what are upsellopportunities down the road to
really understand that fulljourney.
But like you said, it's not likeevery buyer goes through the
same journey, in exactly thesame sequence of steps, right?
(22:53):
People come in and out at alldifferent sorts of places, and
so you really have to understandhow they're interacting with
their organization and what thepurpose of each tactic is,
because you never know ifsomebody's coming in on that
tactic.
Or a different one,
Natalie Swan (23:06):
Yep.
Yep.
Eric Dickmann (23:08):
which makes attribution so hard.
Right.
That's one of the challenges inmarketing.
Natalie Swan (23:12):
It does.
And and that's one of the thingstoo, that I think people hear
something like that and theythink, oh, that means I need to
be everywhere.
Right?
Because we don't know wherepeople are coming from.
But that's not the case, right?
It's, it's identifying whatthose channels are, where you
are getting invisible, right?
And getting in front of newpeople and, and really, um,
Introducing them to, to yourbrand or to your business, and
(23:34):
then what happens next?
Well, they're gonna wanna learna little bit more and they're
want gonna wanna better educatethemselves and explore, you
know, is this company legitimateand where are some testimonials
and or case studies?
And so it, you know, it's notthat you have to be everywhere,
it's that you have to thinkabout.
Uh, think about that journey,like you said, and, and, and
consider what each step of thatlooks like for, for the person
(23:57):
who you want to, to hire you orcome into your store or
whatever, whatever it is.
Eric Dickmann (24:02):
And this is the whole importance of a strategy
exercise.
Really it's asking these kindsof questions.
It's digging in deeper, reallyunderstanding, you know, what
your journey is for your buyers,and then what are the tactics
that are needed to support it.
So I think that's so critical.
If a company is out there andthey're saying, well, I do have
some problems with my marketing.
I'm not getting the kind of leadflow that I need, or, uh, I'm
(24:24):
not getting the right kind of.
what do you say to them in termsof engaging with like a
fractional executive?
Why?
Why would they go down thatpath?
Natalie Swan (24:33):
Yeah, so what I would say to them first, Try to
figure out to some extent whatis and isn't working.
And this doesn't have to be avery built out, you know,
multi-week exercise, but just belogical about it, and ask
yourself, where are customerscoming from?
You know, how do we know that?
Um, and, and what tools are wecurrently using that we're
(24:55):
seeing be most effective interms of why a company.
Could consider hiring afractional executive.
Let's talk about some of thealternatives they have.
So you could hire a full-time,you know, high level marketing
leader, you'll probably spendmonths looking for this person.
You'll have to pay them a sixfigure, multiple, six figure
(25:15):
salary benefits and hope that itworks out right Like that's,
that's what that looks like, um,to get that level of experience
in someone.
Worked probably in a variety ofindustries, at a variety of
companies and sort of seen thisagain and again.
You can hire an agency, which Iknow that a lot of, um, a lot of
(25:35):
companies out there do work withmarketing agencies and, and that
can be effective.
But keep in mind that agenciestend to have expertise in what
it is exactly that they do.
Okay.
They're pulling the levers onthe back end of, of Google and
Facebook, and they know how tooptimize.
They do not necessarily deeplyunderstand your business
(25:59):
objectives, and I've seen thisgo wrong time and time again,
Eric.
I'd be interested to hear, youknow, your input on this, but
there is.
Very easily misalignment betweenwhat leadership thinks is
happening and wants to happenand what the agency is actually
executing to.
And I've also unfortunatelyworked with agencies where, you
(26:19):
know, even asking for somethingas basic as you know, what is
your plan to optimize?
What is your plan to test andlearn?
And there's nothing likestrategic and methodical.
that's there and, and that's akey piece of working with, with
paid advertising is how am Igoing to improve this over time?
Because you, that's why havingthe data through those platforms
(26:41):
is so important.
Um, so, so that's anotheroption.
And, and, or you're workingmaybe with like freelancers or
contractors who can.
Incredible, um, you know,resources to help with some
execution.
Like maybe you need a copywriterto help you write your website
content.
Once you have your strategy,maybe you need someone to help
(27:03):
you design the, the display ads,something very tactical.
That, again, supports the highlevel strategy.
So what you get with, with afractional leader is someone who
has the strategic experience.
They understand why it'simportant to have the full
roadmap, to have the fullunderstanding of what we're
trying to do and how it supportsthe business, and can really,
(27:25):
um, work among.
The agencies, the leadershipteam, the other, you know, third
party resources and alsocross-functionally internally
with the company to really makesure that everything is like,
humming along in a way thatmakes sense, And where everyone
is, is, like I mentioned before,building that momentum versus
(27:47):
throwing things at the wall and,and being really, um, fragmented
in what's happening.
Eric Dickmann (27:52):
Yeah, I think that's a good overview.
That's a good way to put it.
And look, you know, we asmarketers, we work with.
Freelancers and agency partnersall the time, and, and they're
critical to the things that wedo, but oftentimes, you know,
they're, they're packaging upservices, and that's not
necessarily a strategy thatsupports a strategy, but that in
and of itself is not a strategy,and that's why working with a
(28:13):
marketing professional, Afractional is such a great way
to sort of manage those partner,those agency, those freelance
relationships to get thatstrategy executed.
Natalie, I know we're sort ofrunning towards the end of our
time here, but before we closeout, I'd love it if you could
just tell a little bit moreabout where people can find you,
whether it's LinkedIn, on theweb, if you have any offers that
(28:34):
you wanna give to the audience.
I'm gonna give you the floor toexplain that.
Natalie Swan (28:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
I am primarily on LinkedIn atNatalie b Swan.
Um, I've.
Currently have a hot pink bubblebehind my profile Pick.
So I'm pretty easy to find.
But go ahead, connect with methere.
Send me a message.
Um, I'm always happy to toconnect and meet you, and you
can also find meonline@nataliebswan.com and
learn more about my services andbusiness and any free offers I
(29:02):
have there.
Eric Dickmann (29:04):
That's awesome.
I really appreciate it.
I love these kinds ofdiscussions.
I especially love talking aboutstrategy with somebody who's
passionate about it and has gotsuch an interesting background
like you do.
Natalie, I really appreciate youbeing on the show today.
I will make sure that everythingyou mentioned there, we've got
linked up in the show notes sothat people can find you.
Thank you so much for your time.
Natalie Swan (29:22):
Absolutely Eric.
Thank you so much for having me.
Uh, this was such a pleasure,
Eric Dickmann (29:26):
Great.
Thanks.
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