October 25, 2021 • 27 mins
In episode 102, host Eric Dickmann interviews Joey Donovan Guido. Joey is an SEO and web design expert, speaker, business consultant, and author with over two decades of experience as a copywriter working in print and on the web. He is the owner of Cuppa SEO Web Design based in Madison, Wisconsin which focuses on strategy and architecture.
With a passion for search engine optimization, Joey realized the importance of looking at websites, and online marketing, holistically. This led him to write a book entitled "A Holistic Guide to Online Marketing" where he talks about optimization methodologies, user experience, and conversion.
For more information and access to the resources mentioned in this episode, visit:
https://fiveechelon.com/seo-user-experience-basics-online-marketing-s7ep2/
A fractional CMO can help build out a comprehensive marketing strategy and execute targeted campaigns designed to increase awareness and generate demand for your business...without the expense of a full-time hire.
The Five Echelon Group - Fractional CMO and strategic marketing advisory services designed for SMBs looking to grow. Learn more at:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Dickmann (00:02):
Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
In this podcast, we haveconversations with marketing
professionals who share thestrategies, tactics, and mindset
you can use to improve theeffectiveness of your marketing
activities and grow yourbusiness.
Hey, Joey, welcome to TheVirtual CMO podcast.
So glad you could join us today.
Joey Donovan Guido (00:23):
Yeah, it's great to be here.
Thanks man.
Eric Dickmann (00:25):
You know, I'm excited as always about the
conversations that we have onthis show about marketing.
And today, you know, I'd love tofocus on just some of the
basics.
You know, our audience for thisshow typically are small and
mid-sized businesses, maybe theyhave a dedicated marketing team,
or sometimes they outsource it,bring in agencies or freelancers
(00:45):
to help them with theirmarketing.
But I know, you know, when wetalk about marketing, there are
some basics that just everybodyneeds to kind of focus some of
their efforts on.
And so if you could, I'd lovefor us to dive into this a
little bit today in ourconversation, but if you would
just give the audience a littlebit of background on yourself
and how you're helping clientsin the marketplace today,
Joey Donovan Guido (01:08):
Yeah, for sure.
So my, as you said, my name isJoey Donovan Guido, and I'm born
in Brooklyn, New York, andliving in Madison, Wisconsin
now.
And I've had a
Eric Dickmann (01:17):
That's where I was born.
Joey Donovan Guido (01:19):
You're kidding.
Eric Dickmann (01:19):
No, I'm a Madison boy.
I'm a badger.
Joey Donovan Guido (01:22):
Oh, boy.
When did you move?
Eric Dickmann (01:23):
Well, a long time ago.
But yeah, I was born there.
Joey Donovan Guido (01:27):
Oh, that's super cool.
We love it here, it's an amazingtown.
So I started my web design firmCuppa SEO, it'll be nine years
ago in January.
That's a blink of an eye.
And really, you know, what we doin the marketplace is we keep it
real tight, we help clients getfound on Google, really.
(01:47):
And the way we do that is bybuilding them custom websites
that get found, build trust, andmake it easy for website
visitors to turn into customers.
And there are fancy technicalterms for that, that we can get
into.
But really you know, what welook to do is look at websites
holistically, as a whole, andnot look at little
compartmentalize, parts ofmarketing or website.
Eric Dickmann (02:09):
That's so interesting because you know, I
think for many people they lookat websites, and obviously your
website is your digital home onthe web.
But oftentimes I thinkbusinesses lose sight of what
the purpose of the website is,right?
The purpose is to educate,inform, and then convert people
into contacts that might beinterested in doing business
(02:29):
with you.
And so there are some steps andintentionality that you have to
have as you design your website.
So I'm interested as you engagewith clients early on in the
process, what is some of thatinitial discussion that you talk
to them about, about how theyneed to look at their website?
Joey Donovan Guido (02:47):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And really the way we do it iswe try to take the pressure off
the client.
So I'll have a couple of initialconversations with them and just
get to know them and understandthem, and kind of just let them
talk about their business.
What are their pain points?
What are their goals?
What have they been doing in therealm of marketing?
(03:08):
And that helps give me a reallygood idea of who they are, what
they do, and what we need to dowith them.
But really the biggest thing hascome down to, you know, what is
the benefit that your servicesor products offer?
Eric Dickmann (03:23):
Yeah.
Joey Donovan Guido (03:25):
Because all too often, you're absolutely
right.
Businesses lose sight of whatthe website is for.
And I think it's to kind of tosell.
Eric Dickmann (03:33):
Yes.
Joey Donovan Guido (03:33):
And just say, Hey, look, we got this
award last month and we've gotyou know, 300 years of
experience on our team of 30people.
And you know, the person showingup on that website doesn't care
about any of that.
They want to know, can you solvemy pain?
You know?
And I always like to say, peopledon't go to the dentist because
of where that dentist went toschool.
Eric Dickmann (03:54):
Right.
Joey Donovan Guido (03:56):
They go to the dentist because they
literally have pain.
Eric Dickmann (03:58):
Yes.
Well, it's funny, you know,Assignment CENIC has this great
book, you know, Start With Why,right?
Which I think is great, but Ithink many businesses, when it
comes to presentations,collateral, their website, you
know, there's is, start with I,right?
It's all about what they do,what their product or service
does, their features, thegreatness of whatever it is that
(04:20):
they're selling rather than whatit's actually doing for you as a
person.
Joey Donovan Guido (04:25):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Eric Dickmann (04:27):
Yeah.
So as you start to look at awebsite, I mean, obviously
conversion focused is veryimportant.
You want to generate leads froma website, not only educate
people, but help them find a wayto educate themselves because so
much of that now is taking placeon a customer's own time,
right?.
Joey Donovan Guido (04:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric Dickmann (04:50):
So share a little bit about that.
How do you frame a website interms of being able to educate
people about a customer'sproduct or service?
Joey Donovan Guido (04:58):
Yeah.
So it's kind of a three-stepprocess.
But like before we get to that,the first thing we do is we work
on optimizing the website.
What that means is somethingcalled search engine
optimization or SEO.
And that really is essentiallymaking it easier for that
website to get found on Google.
Eric Dickmann (05:19):
Yes.
Joey Donovan Guido (05:20):
Right?
So when someone does a searchquery for like, you know, web
design in Madison, Wisconsin, orSEO in Madison, Wisconsin, we
want them to find us.
So we use keyword phrases andcontent that do that.
So that's kind of like thepreliminary, almost like opening
the door, getting the person,the visitor to your website.
Now the whole thing is if we got10,000 new visitors a month to a
(05:42):
website and the website thinkabout like, if you go to a hotel
and you walk in and it smellsmusty and it looks dusty and
it's just like, Ugh, I need adifferent room or I need to find
a different motel or hotel, youknow, that's, what's called a
user experience.
So once we get somebody there,the first thing we need to do is
help them feel comfortable,start to build trust, make them
(06:05):
kind of feel like, Hey, I knowthe lay of the land here, I see
where I've landed, it's where Iexpected to land for this
particular search query I did.
And this user experiencemethodology is directly tied to
conversion.
Hmm.
Because as you could imagine, ifyou show up on a website and you
feel like, ah, aesthetically, itlooks nice, things are clean,
(06:28):
we've gotten rid of all thedistraction and the noise of
moving parts and you know,pop-ups and all these things
that we can talk more about thatcan often be detrimental to
conversion.
And then we really have a nice,clear single, maybe two calls to
action.
So it's a nice flow, right?
And then when we have that callto action, we want to make sure
(06:50):
that we're making it hit thatpain point, address it directly,
don't beat around the bush,right?
With the dentist, hey, if you'vegot pain, we can help, click
here to make your appointment.
Something simple like that cango a long way in rising your
conversion.
Eric Dickmann (07:07):
I like the way you frame that and making people
feel comfortable.
You want to speak to thecustomer in their own language,
describe that you understandwhat they might be going
through, talk a little bit abouthow your product or service
might help them address one ofthose pains or several of those
pains, but then you also talkabout this idea of a call to
action.
(07:28):
At some point you want them todo something and it's amazing
how many websites lead younowhere.
There's no call to action.
Joey Donovan Guido (07:37):
Yeah, yeah.
There's often no call to action.
Sometimes you're even missing acontact button or a tab in your
top level navigation, which islike, well, how, how is somebody
going to know to get in touchwith you if that contact page
isn't easily available?
Oftentimes too, we'll see toomany conversion methodology.
(07:58):
So somebody got eight productsso they throw eight conversion
buttons on the homepage.
Or they like, you know, like togo back to the dentist, they'll
be like, Hey, download a freeone sheet or a PDF about how to
keep your teeth for your plaqueand you know, great for blog
posts.
(08:19):
But when someone shows up onthat dentist homepage, man, you
want them to book anappointment, not download
something.
So it goes back to understandingwhat your customer needs are.
Eric Dickmann (08:31):
I sometimes call this like the Netflix syndrome.
You know, if you've ever satdown in front of Netflix and
scrolled up page after pageafter page or movies and TV
shows, eventually you know, youjust get exhausted and you end
up watching something you'veseen before, because it's just
an easier choice.
And I see that with a lot of webpage design that's out there.
They're giving people too manychoices, too many different
(08:52):
calls to action, navigationaltips, whatever, and it just
becomes exhausting.
And you leave because you don'tknow where to go.
What's the next appropriatething to do?
Joey Donovan Guido (09:02):
Yeah, I love that.
That is a great analogy.
And to kind of piggyback onthat, what Netflix also does, I
think often poorly is they giveyou kind of like the call to
action, right?
They give you, based on yourwatching history, here's some
suggestions for you.
And sometimes I look at them andI'm like, where did these come
(09:22):
from?
Because this has nothing to dowith what I've watched or what I
want to watch.
It's totally out of line.
Eric Dickmann (09:28):
Yes.
When you talked about calls toaction and you know,
downloadable assets like a PDFand we're in a different time,
right?
Things are changing.
It used to be that people wouldhave white papers on their
websites, and those would bepopular downloads or
infographics, but we're movinginto an era where video is so
popular and other things.
(09:49):
What are you finding, workingwith your clients that are still
successful downloadable assetsversus needing to make things
like video on demand withoutthat kind of gate in front of
it?
Joey Donovan Guido (10:02):
That's a really great question.
Video is tricky.
We've got some clients thatwe've worked with over the
years.
Widen is one of them.
They do software as a service,they're international.
And they've done a great jobwith video because what they do
is they do a lot of repurposing.
So do a webinar, and of course,you know, record that webinar
(10:22):
and then repurpose it on theirwebsite.
So it becomes usable contenteither on a blog post or on
their videos page.
And then what we would do isalso take that and transcribe it
into like two or three blogposts, so repurposing it again.
So you really get a lot of bangfor your buck when you do video
like that.
(10:43):
Kind of that whole gated thing.
I am not an expert in that areabecause I don't do gated video
for myself because I've alwaysfound it to be very challenging,
to get people to want to getbehind that gate.
What I'm finding that can bereally successful for video that
is also somewhat manageable,even for smaller businesses, is
(11:04):
to do things like videotestimonials.
Eric Dickmann (11:06):
Hmmm.
Joey Donovan Guido (11:07):
Right?
Or to do something, if as longas they can muster up the
comfort and you know, the desireto do small videos, kind of like
what we're doing today, butmaybe like for five minutes, and
just sit down in front of thecamera and talk.
Just about one of the main painpoints that their clients
struggle with.
I would say the biggest advice Icould give for video is the same
(11:30):
advice I would give for anywebpage or blog post and it's to
make it about them, not you.
Eric Dickmann (11:35):
Hmm.
Joey Donovan Guido (11:36):
The less it's salesy, the more it's about
developing a relationship andjust giving really good
information.
Like you know, the top six areasto optimize on your website,
people aren't going to learn itall in five minutes, but at
least you're giving them someknowledge.
Eric Dickmann (11:50):
Yeah.
Oh, I think that's great becauseyou know, one of the reasons
that we're doing this as a livestream today is because it
creates a video asset.
Yes, we're going to put togethera blog post on this podcast, we
are going to put together somevideo snippets that we'll use on
social media, and yes,ultimately the audio podcast
will come out and be out acrossall those players.
(12:11):
But what we're trying to do ismake the content consumable the
way the listener, the viewerultimately wants to consume it,
right?
And we get a lot of videos onthe video channels, Facebook and
YouTube, et cetera.
So it's important to make thatan option for people because we
definitely are in an age ofvideo.
Joey Donovan Guido (12:32):
Yeah, that's a great point.
And that, that whole thing aboutit being consumable, how
somebody wants it, that's again,making it about them.
You know I find that when I do avideo, I'm always extremely
self-conscious about it as theguy on the video.
But I find when I post that onsocial, it gets hundreds more
views than just a photo withcontent, with words.
(12:55):
But I think it's important tounderstand, like, everybody's
different.
Like you said earlier, sometimesyou have a marketing team,
sometimes you don't, so whetherit's video or blogging, it's
really about what's manageablefor you as the person creating
the content.
Eric Dickmann (13:13):
Well you know, one thing I would love to get
your thoughts on, because I knowyou do some webinars.
And I think sometimes peoplelook at webinars and they think
back to the corporate days, whenyou've got to get one of these
fancy webinar platforms to puteverything together, it doesn't
really need to be all thatcomplicated does it?
You know just getting out there,putting yourself on video, you
(13:34):
can create a reusable webinarasset, you know in the exact
same situation, the exact samesetup that you and I are
recording this today.
Joey Donovan Guido (13:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's super easy now.
That's totally right.
It used to be you have to spendall these dollars every month to
have WebEx or whatever it was.
And, you know, StreamYard, evenZoom, even if you don't want to
live stream.
If you feel like that's toomuch, you can always use Zoom
and record it or I think you cando the same with StreamYard if
I'm not mistaken.
And then, you know, record itand then upload it.
(14:04):
And then you know, upload it toYouTube and then share it on
social.
Eric Dickmann (14:09):
Yeah.
And there are some great littleadditional tools.
Somebody clued me into a tool, Ithink the product name is
terrible, but it's called Mmhmm,you know, M M H M M.
And it's basically a littleplugin that allows you to put
like the video over yourshoulder, like they have on the
evening newscast or somethinglike that, or an easy way to
(14:30):
insert slides into a videorecording.
And it's actually super helpfuland it's a plugin, so it can
work with any video platformthat you're using.
I could have it enabled here,for example.
And it's just a way to addsomething more than just your
face to whatever you're doing.
You can show a slide or apicture, a graphic or a video,
(14:50):
as well as your face.
And so there are a ton of simplesolutions that can really up
your production level at a verylow cost or no cost at all.
Joey Donovan Guido (15:00):
Yeah, that's a great point.
And to your earlier point aboutthat, this preconception of
webinars.
I used to think of it as kind oflike stiff, almost stoic, you
know, really like theseprofessional things that
happened that nobody was reallyexcited about.
And I think that's been changingfor years, especially with the
pandemic.
When I do a webinar or an onlineworkshop, man, for me, it's all
(15:25):
about just having thatrelationship, even though it's
virtual, even though you're nothere with me, you know, we're
talking and the more we canengage with each other, the more
value that has.
And that's what I'll do.
It's good advice I think ifyou're going to do a webinar or
a talk or a workshop, you know?
I never wait until the end totake questions.
Eric Dickmann (15:48):
Yeah.
Joey Donovan Guido (15:49):
Because man, you know, Eric, if you're
sitting there thinking, whatdoes he mean by that?
I want to give you anopportunity within a couple of
minutes of me saying somethingto say, Hey Joey, I don't
understand or I don't agree.
And this is a specific style.
Not everybody is comfortablewith that.
But I find it as much moreengaging, the audience is much
(16:09):
more apt to be paying attention.
Eric Dickmann (16:13):
Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to
the podcast.
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Services.
Now back to the podcast.
Yeah, I think the more that youcan add that interactive element
so that people feel they're partof it.
I mean especially now, you knowas we're sort of working our way
through this pandemic, peopleare so tired of Zoom calls
because you know, it's thiscrazy thing cause it just locks
your attention into the screen,it can be very fatiguing after a
(17:19):
while.
But having that element ofinteractivity where people can
participate in some ways I thinkis so important.
I think you know, we've seen therise of things like virtual
summits and other ways to sortof interact virtually, but
interacting in some way as a keypart of that.
Joey Donovan Guido (17:34):
Yeah, yeah.
And there is that fatigue and Ijust feel like the more we can
have a conversation, the betterit works out.
Eric Dickmann (17:44):
Yeah, I agree.
What have you seen in terms of,I know you specialize in SEO,
but what have you seen in termsof some of the changes that
Google has been rolling out interms of page speed and
optimization?
Have you really seen clientwebsites taking a hit or is it
largely a non event?
I mean, what's been your earlyfeedback from it?
Joey Donovan Guido (18:05):
Yeah, it's kind of all over the place.
We were very lucky that, I'vebeen doing this for years a long
time.
And so typically when Googlemakes a change, they kind of
make a change that alignsthemselves with how we do the
search engine optimization inany way.
So we're big believers in notbreaking any rules, even if
something looks like it might bebreaking a rule.
(18:26):
Like we optimize every singleimage on every client's website,
Eric Dickmann (18:30):
Yeah.
Joey Donovan Guido (18:31):
optimize the image and the alt image name.
A lot of SEO firms don't dothat.
And I'm kind of puzzled as towhy they don't.
But we've got an internal rulewhere these image names need to
be.
typically 50 characters or less.
Now that's not a Google rule,that's a Joey rule, that's a
Cuppa SEO rule, because as soonas you start to get past 50
characters, it starts to lookspammy.
(18:52):
If it looks spammy to the humaneye, there is very good chance
it might look spammy to Google.
So really it's like commonsense, you know?
If you're trying to work thesystem, you're probably going to
get busted now or down the road.
Eric Dickmann (19:07):
Yeah.
Joey Donovan Guido (19:07):
If you're really truly thinking about that
customer experience and makingit them first, you typically
fall into alignment with Google.
There are certain rules youdon't want to break.
What I've seen clients get hitreally hard.
There's one that is, I'm goingto forget the acronym now.
(19:28):
It's not FOMO, it's not fear ofmissing out, it was financial
websites that were strictlyfinancial and there are also
medical websites that what theydid was talk about procedures,
talk about medical news, thingslike hospitals, clinics,
(19:51):
doctor's offices.
And this goes back over a year Ithink where there was a change
in algorithm and some of thesewebsites were getting slammed.
Eric Dickmann (20:03):
Oh, really?
Joey Donovan Guido (20:04):
Yeah.
And then the problem was for afew months, some of these
websites that had nothing to dowith finance or medical were
getting hit hard because thealgorithm oftentimes goes too
far and it needs to correct.
Eric Dickmann (20:17):
Yep.
Joey Donovan Guido (20:18):
So once in a while, a client will call and
say, Joey, what happened?
We were ranking first on pageone for all these different
keywords.
And now we're like, we're not.
Eric Dickmann (20:27):
Yes.
Joey Donovan Guido (20:28):
So I'll typically know if an update has
happened.
But we'll kind of walk throughit and usually that corrects
itself without us, my teamneeded to take any action within
a couple of weeks.
But we have to look at it.
Cause sometimes the client doessomething and they don't realize
what they did.
Eric Dickmann (20:47):
Just broke something.
Joey Donovan Guido (20:49):
Yeah.
Eric Dickmann (20:50):
Well, you might not be able to answer this
specifically, but that brings upa curious question to me.
So let's say that you did ranknumber one for a number of
keywords, Google pushes out anupdate, and maybe there was
something now that's broken onyour page that they're dinging
you for and so you're droppeddown in the rankings, assuming
you get that fixed.
So now you're sort of 100% incompliance if that's ever
(21:13):
possible.
How fast could you expect torecover your rank?
Joey Donovan Guido (21:18):
That's a great question.
And I can't answer that.
What happens is when you take adip in ranking for whatever
reason, sometimes it's becauseyou're not pumping out fresh
content, typically a blog.
Or even if you're doing a video,you need to blog, they put fresh
actual words on the page, soGoogle can see it.
So you might stop blogging for afew weeks or months, or let's
(21:41):
say all of a sudden you're outof compliance.
Like one of the not so recentchanges was you had to be SSL
certified or in other words, youhad to have that little lock on
your website, so it was quoteunquote secure.
For most websites that weren'tselling websites, that made no
difference.
But Google didn't care, if youwere non-compliant with the SSL,
(22:02):
you could get dinged.
And I always say you could getdinged because they're kind of
not overtly objective about whothey dig and who they don't.
So that's one thing though, ifall of a sudden, you know the
deadline came and you were nolonger compliant with that SSL,
you might take it.
Eric Dickmann (22:20):
Okay.
Joey Donovan Guido (22:21):
Right?
And I've seen that happen prettyquick, where like you're not
that, you could take a dipwithin a week or two, right?
And then when you fix it, youcan pop back up within a week or
two.
You know if something happenswhere like all the SEO on a page
goes away, like somebody on theteam changed everything and
didn't say, Hey, Cuppa SEO, arewe good?
Do you need to optimize this?
(22:44):
You won't see changes like thathappen.
It could take a couple of weeks,but more likely it's going to
take a few weeks up to 90 daysfor you to start to see a dip.
And then you know, on the flipside of that is once you start
to make the corrections, itmight take up to 90 days for you
to get back to where you were.
Eric Dickmann (23:02):
It makes sense, but you're not looking at six to
nine months before Google startsto slowly recognize.
It's not you're back to squareone.
You can recover from themrelatively quickly.
Joey Donovan Guido (23:12):
Yes, you can pretty much recover from
anything unless you're reallydoing some black hat things.
Once I worked for a company whowas, shall not be named, it was
an international company who hada local business here in
Wisconsin, kind of a subsidiary,and they were breaking all kinds
(23:33):
of rules.
They were literally in what Icall the black hole of Google
Panda, you know, like black holein space, like you just
disappear, you're gone.
Eric Dickmann (23:40):
Yeah.
Joey Donovan Guido (23:40):
You know, you couldn't find them in a
keyword search, if you knew theURL you'd find them.
And that was it.
What they were doing is theywere publishing a blog post a
day and it was total garbage.
It was obvious that it was beingposted for SEO reasons, not for
value.
Eric Dickmann (23:56):
Gotcha.
Joey Donovan Guido (23:57):
That took me about six months to fix.
And it's not rocket science,there's ways to fix it.
And we took them from less than10 hits a day to over a hundred,
which you know, for a smalllocal business
Eric Dickmann (24:13):
that's a big deal.
Joey Donovan Guido (24:15):
It was you know, 10 times the amount of
traffic.
And it did help tremendouslywith their conversion, with
their business growth.
Eric Dickmann (24:23):
Interesting.
Yeah, it's a complex world.
You know as a podcast, host,people regularly reach out to me
to be guests on the show.
And I would say that at leasthalf of the inquiries that I get
are from SEO experts.
It's such an important elementof business, it's constantly
evolving and changing, andsomething that businesses need
to keep an eye on.
It's not like you can create awebsite, create some content one
(24:47):
time, and then just sit back for10 years and let it go, right?
It needs to constantly benurtured.
So for people who might belooking for an SEO expert to
come into their business andreally help them with their
website, how could they find youguys and get in touch with you?
Joey Donovan Guido (25:03):
Oh, yeah.
So they can find us just bygoing to cuppaseo.com.
We kind of named the businessoff of a cup of Joe.
Eric Dickmann (25:11):
Yeah, I like that.
Joey Donovan Guido (25:12):
Cause my name is Joey.
YSo yeah, cuppaseo.com, andthere's all kinds of great
information there too.
So if you just looking for moreinformation about SEO or kind of
like what to look for whenyou're hiring a web design firm
or if you're working with oneand you're wondering, Hey, are
they doing a good job?
Are they actually optimizing mywebsite or am I kind of burning
(25:32):
my money with them?
There's a lot of goodinformation there, but otherwise
just go, you know everything youneed to know is on there for web
design or SEO, and you can justgo ahead and hit the contact
button and get in touch.
Love to talk.
Eric Dickmann (25:45):
Hey And that's great.
I know yougot some great webinarreplays on the the website as
well that have some great tipsfor people.
So I'd encourage people to gocheck that out and we'll also
make sure that all of that islinked up in the show notes so
that people can find you.
Joey, thanks so much for comingon the podcast today.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation.
This is a fascinating topic.
Joey Donovan Guido (26:04):
Yeah, man.
You're welcome.
Thanks for having me today.
Eric Dickmann (26:06):
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of The Virtual CMO
podcast.
For more episodes, go tofiveechelon.com/podcast to
subscribe through your podcastplayer of choice.
And if you'd like to developconsistent lead flow and a
highly effective marketingstrategy, visit fiveechelon.com
(26:27):
to learn more about our VirtualCMO consulting services.
Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
In this podcast, we haveconversations with marketing
professionals who share thestrategies, tactics, and mindset
you can use to improve theeffectiveness of your marketing
activities and grow yourbusiness.
Hey, Joey, welcome to TheVirtual CMO podcast.
So glad you could join us today.
Joey Donovan Guido (00:23):
Yeah, it's great to be here.
Thanks man.
Eric Dickmann (00:25):
You know, I'm excited as always about the
conversations that we have onthis show about marketing.
And today, you know, I'd love tofocus on just some of the
basics.
You know, our audience for thisshow typically are small and
mid-sized businesses, maybe theyhave a dedicated marketing team,
or sometimes they outsource it,bring in agencies or freelancers
(00:45):
to help them with theirmarketing.
But I know, you know, when wetalk about marketing, there are
some basics that just everybodyneeds to kind of focus some of
their efforts on.
And so if you could, I'd lovefor us to dive into this a
little bit today in ourconversation, but if you would
just give the audience a littlebit of background on yourself
and how you're helping clientsin the marketplace today,
Joey Donovan Guido (01:08):
Yeah, for sure.
So my, as you said, my name isJoey Donovan Guido, and I'm born
in Brooklyn, New York, andliving in Madison, Wisconsin
now.
And I've had a
Eric Dickmann (01:17):
That's where I was born.
Joey Donovan Guido (01:19):
You're kidding.
Eric Dickmann (01:19):
No, I'm a Madison boy.
I'm a badger.
Joey Donovan Guido (01:22):
Oh, boy.
When did you move?
Eric Dickmann (01:23):
Well, a long time ago.
But yeah, I was born there.
Joey Donovan Guido (01:27):
Oh, that's super cool.
We love it here, it's an amazingtown.
So I started my web design firmCuppa SEO, it'll be nine years
ago in January.
That's a blink of an eye.
And really, you know, what we doin the marketplace is we keep it
real tight, we help clients getfound on Google, really.
(01:47):
And the way we do that is bybuilding them custom websites
that get found, build trust, andmake it easy for website
visitors to turn into customers.
And there are fancy technicalterms for that, that we can get
into.
But really you know, what welook to do is look at websites
holistically, as a whole, andnot look at little
compartmentalize, parts ofmarketing or website.
Eric Dickmann (02:09):
That's so interesting because you know, I
think for many people they lookat websites, and obviously your
website is your digital home onthe web.
But oftentimes I thinkbusinesses lose sight of what
the purpose of the website is,right?
The purpose is to educate,inform, and then convert people
into contacts that might beinterested in doing business
(02:29):
with you.
And so there are some steps andintentionality that you have to
have as you design your website.
So I'm interested as you engagewith clients early on in the
process, what is some of thatinitial discussion that you talk
to them about, about how theyneed to look at their website?
Joey Donovan Guido (02:47):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And really the way we do it iswe try to take the pressure off
the client.
So I'll have a couple of initialconversations with them and just
get to know them and understandthem, and kind of just let them
talk about their business.
What are their pain points?
What are their goals?
What have they been doing in therealm of marketing?
(03:08):
And that helps give me a reallygood idea of who they are, what
they do, and what we need to dowith them.
But really the biggest thing hascome down to, you know, what is
the benefit that your servicesor products offer?
Eric Dickmann (03:23):
Yeah.
Joey Donovan Guido (03:25):
Because all too often, you're absolutely
right.
Businesses lose sight of whatthe website is for.
And I think it's to kind of tosell.
Eric Dickmann (03:33):
Yes.
Joey Donovan Guido (03:33):
And just say, Hey, look, we got this
award last month and we've gotyou know, 300 years of
experience on our team of 30people.
And you know, the person showingup on that website doesn't care
about any of that.
They want to know, can you solvemy pain?
You know?
And I always like to say, peopledon't go to the dentist because
of where that dentist went toschool.
Eric Dickmann (03:54):
Right.
Joey Donovan Guido (03:56):
They go to the dentist because they
literally have pain.
Eric Dickmann (03:58):
Yes.
Well, it's funny, you know,Assignment CENIC has this great
book, you know, Start With Why,right?
Which I think is great, but Ithink many businesses, when it
comes to presentations,collateral, their website, you
know, there's is, start with I,right?
It's all about what they do,what their product or service
does, their features, thegreatness of whatever it is that
(04:20):
they're selling rather than whatit's actually doing for you as a
person.
Joey Donovan Guido (04:25):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Eric Dickmann (04:27):
Yeah.
So as you start to look at awebsite, I mean, obviously
conversion focused is veryimportant.
You want to generate leads froma website, not only educate
people, but help them find a wayto educate themselves because so
much of that now is taking placeon a customer's own time,
right?.
Joey Donovan Guido (04:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric Dickmann (04:50):
So share a little bit about that.
How do you frame a website interms of being able to educate
people about a customer'sproduct or service?
Joey Donovan Guido (04:58):
Yeah.
So it's kind of a three-stepprocess.
But like before we get to that,the first thing we do is we work
on optimizing the website.
What that means is somethingcalled search engine
optimization or SEO.
And that really is essentiallymaking it easier for that
website to get found on Google.
Eric Dickmann (05:19):
Yes.
Joey Donovan Guido (05:20):
Right?
So when someone does a searchquery for like, you know, web
design in Madison, Wisconsin, orSEO in Madison, Wisconsin, we
want them to find us.
So we use keyword phrases andcontent that do that.
So that's kind of like thepreliminary, almost like opening
the door, getting the person,the visitor to your website.
Now the whole thing is if we got10,000 new visitors a month to a
(05:42):
website and the website thinkabout like, if you go to a hotel
and you walk in and it smellsmusty and it looks dusty and
it's just like, Ugh, I need adifferent room or I need to find
a different motel or hotel, youknow, that's, what's called a
user experience.
So once we get somebody there,the first thing we need to do is
help them feel comfortable,start to build trust, make them
(06:05):
kind of feel like, Hey, I knowthe lay of the land here, I see
where I've landed, it's where Iexpected to land for this
particular search query I did.
And this user experiencemethodology is directly tied to
conversion.
Hmm.
Because as you could imagine, ifyou show up on a website and you
feel like, ah, aesthetically, itlooks nice, things are clean,
(06:28):
we've gotten rid of all thedistraction and the noise of
moving parts and you know,pop-ups and all these things
that we can talk more about thatcan often be detrimental to
conversion.
And then we really have a nice,clear single, maybe two calls to
action.
So it's a nice flow, right?
And then when we have that callto action, we want to make sure
(06:50):
that we're making it hit thatpain point, address it directly,
don't beat around the bush,right?
With the dentist, hey, if you'vegot pain, we can help, click
here to make your appointment.
Something simple like that cango a long way in rising your
conversion.
Eric Dickmann (07:07):
I like the way you frame that and making people
feel comfortable.
You want to speak to thecustomer in their own language,
describe that you understandwhat they might be going
through, talk a little bit abouthow your product or service
might help them address one ofthose pains or several of those
pains, but then you also talkabout this idea of a call to
action.
(07:28):
At some point you want them todo something and it's amazing
how many websites lead younowhere.
There's no call to action.
Joey Donovan Guido (07:37):
Yeah, yeah.
There's often no call to action.
Sometimes you're even missing acontact button or a tab in your
top level navigation, which islike, well, how, how is somebody
going to know to get in touchwith you if that contact page
isn't easily available?
Oftentimes too, we'll see toomany conversion methodology.
(07:58):
So somebody got eight productsso they throw eight conversion
buttons on the homepage.
Or they like, you know, like togo back to the dentist, they'll
be like, Hey, download a freeone sheet or a PDF about how to
keep your teeth for your plaqueand you know, great for blog
posts.
(08:19):
But when someone shows up onthat dentist homepage, man, you
want them to book anappointment, not download
something.
So it goes back to understandingwhat your customer needs are.
Eric Dickmann (08:31):
I sometimes call this like the Netflix syndrome.
You know, if you've ever satdown in front of Netflix and
scrolled up page after pageafter page or movies and TV
shows, eventually you know, youjust get exhausted and you end
up watching something you'veseen before, because it's just
an easier choice.
And I see that with a lot of webpage design that's out there.
They're giving people too manychoices, too many different
(08:52):
calls to action, navigationaltips, whatever, and it just
becomes exhausting.
And you leave because you don'tknow where to go.
What's the next appropriatething to do?
Joey Donovan Guido (09:02):
Yeah, I love that.
That is a great analogy.
And to kind of piggyback onthat, what Netflix also does, I
think often poorly is they giveyou kind of like the call to
action, right?
They give you, based on yourwatching history, here's some
suggestions for you.
And sometimes I look at them andI'm like, where did these come
(09:22):
from?
Because this has nothing to dowith what I've watched or what I
want to watch.
It's totally out of line.
Eric Dickmann (09:28):
Yes.
When you talked about calls toaction and you know,
downloadable assets like a PDFand we're in a different time,
right?
Things are changing.
It used to be that people wouldhave white papers on their
websites, and those would bepopular downloads or
infographics, but we're movinginto an era where video is so
popular and other things.
(09:49):
What are you finding, workingwith your clients that are still
successful downloadable assetsversus needing to make things
like video on demand withoutthat kind of gate in front of
it?
Joey Donovan Guido (10:02):
That's a really great question.
Video is tricky.
We've got some clients thatwe've worked with over the
years.
Widen is one of them.
They do software as a service,they're international.
And they've done a great jobwith video because what they do
is they do a lot of repurposing.
So do a webinar, and of course,you know, record that webinar
(10:22):
and then repurpose it on theirwebsite.
So it becomes usable contenteither on a blog post or on
their videos page.
And then what we would do isalso take that and transcribe it
into like two or three blogposts, so repurposing it again.
So you really get a lot of bangfor your buck when you do video
like that.
(10:43):
Kind of that whole gated thing.
I am not an expert in that areabecause I don't do gated video
for myself because I've alwaysfound it to be very challenging,
to get people to want to getbehind that gate.
What I'm finding that can bereally successful for video that
is also somewhat manageable,even for smaller businesses, is
(11:04):
to do things like videotestimonials.
Eric Dickmann (11:06):
Hmmm.
Joey Donovan Guido (11:07):
Right?
Or to do something, if as longas they can muster up the
comfort and you know, the desireto do small videos, kind of like
what we're doing today, butmaybe like for five minutes, and
just sit down in front of thecamera and talk.
Just about one of the main painpoints that their clients
struggle with.
I would say the biggest advice Icould give for video is the same
(11:30):
advice I would give for anywebpage or blog post and it's to
make it about them, not you.
Eric Dickmann (11:35):
Hmm.
Joey Donovan Guido (11:36):
The less it's salesy, the more it's about
developing a relationship andjust giving really good
information.
Like you know, the top six areasto optimize on your website,
people aren't going to learn itall in five minutes, but at
least you're giving them someknowledge.
Eric Dickmann (11:50):
Yeah.
Oh, I think that's great becauseyou know, one of the reasons
that we're doing this as a livestream today is because it
creates a video asset.
Yes, we're going to put togethera blog post on this podcast, we
are going to put together somevideo snippets that we'll use on
social media, and yes,ultimately the audio podcast
will come out and be out acrossall those players.
(12:11):
But what we're trying to do ismake the content consumable the
way the listener, the viewerultimately wants to consume it,
right?
And we get a lot of videos onthe video channels, Facebook and
YouTube, et cetera.
So it's important to make thatan option for people because we
definitely are in an age ofvideo.
Joey Donovan Guido (12:32):
Yeah, that's a great point.
And that, that whole thing aboutit being consumable, how
somebody wants it, that's again,making it about them.
You know I find that when I do avideo, I'm always extremely
self-conscious about it as theguy on the video.
But I find when I post that onsocial, it gets hundreds more
views than just a photo withcontent, with words.
(12:55):
But I think it's important tounderstand, like, everybody's
different.
Like you said earlier, sometimesyou have a marketing team,
sometimes you don't, so whetherit's video or blogging, it's
really about what's manageablefor you as the person creating
the content.
Eric Dickmann (13:13):
Well you know, one thing I would love to get
your thoughts on, because I knowyou do some webinars.
And I think sometimes peoplelook at webinars and they think
back to the corporate days, whenyou've got to get one of these
fancy webinar platforms to puteverything together, it doesn't
really need to be all thatcomplicated does it?
You know just getting out there,putting yourself on video, you
(13:34):
can create a reusable webinarasset, you know in the exact
same situation, the exact samesetup that you and I are
recording this today.
Joey Donovan Guido (13:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's super easy now.
That's totally right.
It used to be you have to spendall these dollars every month to
have WebEx or whatever it was.
And, you know, StreamYard, evenZoom, even if you don't want to
live stream.
If you feel like that's toomuch, you can always use Zoom
and record it or I think you cando the same with StreamYard if
I'm not mistaken.
And then, you know, record itand then upload it.
(14:04):
And then you know, upload it toYouTube and then share it on
social.
Eric Dickmann (14:09):
Yeah.
And there are some great littleadditional tools.
Somebody clued me into a tool, Ithink the product name is
terrible, but it's called Mmhmm,you know, M M H M M.
And it's basically a littleplugin that allows you to put
like the video over yourshoulder, like they have on the
evening newscast or somethinglike that, or an easy way to
(14:30):
insert slides into a videorecording.
And it's actually super helpfuland it's a plugin, so it can
work with any video platformthat you're using.
I could have it enabled here,for example.
And it's just a way to addsomething more than just your
face to whatever you're doing.
You can show a slide or apicture, a graphic or a video,
(14:50):
as well as your face.
And so there are a ton of simplesolutions that can really up
your production level at a verylow cost or no cost at all.
Joey Donovan Guido (15:00):
Yeah, that's a great point.
And to your earlier point aboutthat, this preconception of
webinars.
I used to think of it as kind oflike stiff, almost stoic, you
know, really like theseprofessional things that
happened that nobody was reallyexcited about.
And I think that's been changingfor years, especially with the
pandemic.
When I do a webinar or an onlineworkshop, man, for me, it's all
(15:25):
about just having thatrelationship, even though it's
virtual, even though you're nothere with me, you know, we're
talking and the more we canengage with each other, the more
value that has.
And that's what I'll do.
It's good advice I think ifyou're going to do a webinar or
a talk or a workshop, you know?
I never wait until the end totake questions.
Eric Dickmann (15:48):
Yeah.
Joey Donovan Guido (15:49):
Because man, you know, Eric, if you're
sitting there thinking, whatdoes he mean by that?
I want to give you anopportunity within a couple of
minutes of me saying somethingto say, Hey Joey, I don't
understand or I don't agree.
And this is a specific style.
Not everybody is comfortablewith that.
But I find it as much moreengaging, the audience is much
(16:09):
more apt to be paying attention.
Eric Dickmann (16:13):
Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to
the podcast.
But first, are you ready togrow, scale, and take your
marketing to the next level?
If so, The Five Echelon Group'sVirtual CMO consulting service
may be a great fit for you.
We can help build a strategicmarketing plan for your business
and manage its execution,step-by-step.
(16:34):
We'll focus on areas like how toattract more leads.
How to create compellingmessaging that resonates with
your ideal customers.
How to strategically package andposition your products and
services.
How to increase lead conversion,improve your margins, and scale
your business.
To find out more about ourconsulting offerings and
schedule a consultation, go tofiveechelon.com and click on
(16:57):
Services.
Now back to the podcast.
Yeah, I think the more that youcan add that interactive element
so that people feel they're partof it.
I mean especially now, you knowas we're sort of working our way
through this pandemic, peopleare so tired of Zoom calls
because you know, it's thiscrazy thing cause it just locks
your attention into the screen,it can be very fatiguing after a
(17:19):
while.
But having that element ofinteractivity where people can
participate in some ways I thinkis so important.
I think you know, we've seen therise of things like virtual
summits and other ways to sortof interact virtually, but
interacting in some way as a keypart of that.
Joey Donovan Guido (17:34):
Yeah, yeah.
And there is that fatigue and Ijust feel like the more we can
have a conversation, the betterit works out.
Eric Dickmann (17:44):
Yeah, I agree.
What have you seen in terms of,I know you specialize in SEO,
but what have you seen in termsof some of the changes that
Google has been rolling out interms of page speed and
optimization?
Have you really seen clientwebsites taking a hit or is it
largely a non event?
I mean, what's been your earlyfeedback from it?
Joey Donovan Guido (18:05):
Yeah, it's kind of all over the place.
We were very lucky that, I'vebeen doing this for years a long
time.
And so typically when Googlemakes a change, they kind of
make a change that alignsthemselves with how we do the
search engine optimization inany way.
So we're big believers in notbreaking any rules, even if
something looks like it might bebreaking a rule.
(18:26):
Like we optimize every singleimage on every client's website,
Eric Dickmann (18:30):
Yeah.
Joey Donovan Guido (18:31):
optimize the image and the alt image name.
A lot of SEO firms don't dothat.
And I'm kind of puzzled as towhy they don't.
But we've got an internal rulewhere these image names need to
be.
typically 50 characters or less.
Now that's not a Google rule,that's a Joey rule, that's a
Cuppa SEO rule, because as soonas you start to get past 50
characters, it starts to lookspammy.
(18:52):
If it looks spammy to the humaneye, there is very good chance
it might look spammy to Google.
So really it's like commonsense, you know?
If you're trying to work thesystem, you're probably going to
get busted now or down the road.
Eric Dickmann (19:07):
Yeah.
Joey Donovan Guido (19:07):
If you're really truly thinking about that
customer experience and makingit them first, you typically
fall into alignment with Google.
There are certain rules youdon't want to break.
What I've seen clients get hitreally hard.
There's one that is, I'm goingto forget the acronym now.
(19:28):
It's not FOMO, it's not fear ofmissing out, it was financial
websites that were strictlyfinancial and there are also
medical websites that what theydid was talk about procedures,
talk about medical news, thingslike hospitals, clinics,
(19:51):
doctor's offices.
And this goes back over a year Ithink where there was a change
in algorithm and some of thesewebsites were getting slammed.
Eric Dickmann (20:03):
Oh, really?
Joey Donovan Guido (20:04):
Yeah.
And then the problem was for afew months, some of these
websites that had nothing to dowith finance or medical were
getting hit hard because thealgorithm oftentimes goes too
far and it needs to correct.
Eric Dickmann (20:17):
Yep.
Joey Donovan Guido (20:18):
So once in a while, a client will call and
say, Joey, what happened?
We were ranking first on pageone for all these different
keywords.
And now we're like, we're not.
Eric Dickmann (20:27):
Yes.
Joey Donovan Guido (20:28):
So I'll typically know if an update has
happened.
But we'll kind of walk throughit and usually that corrects
itself without us, my teamneeded to take any action within
a couple of weeks.
But we have to look at it.
Cause sometimes the client doessomething and they don't realize
what they did.
Eric Dickmann (20:47):
Just broke something.
Joey Donovan Guido (20:49):
Yeah.
Eric Dickmann (20:50):
Well, you might not be able to answer this
specifically, but that brings upa curious question to me.
So let's say that you did ranknumber one for a number of
keywords, Google pushes out anupdate, and maybe there was
something now that's broken onyour page that they're dinging
you for and so you're droppeddown in the rankings, assuming
you get that fixed.
So now you're sort of 100% incompliance if that's ever
(21:13):
possible.
How fast could you expect torecover your rank?
Joey Donovan Guido (21:18):
That's a great question.
And I can't answer that.
What happens is when you take adip in ranking for whatever
reason, sometimes it's becauseyou're not pumping out fresh
content, typically a blog.
Or even if you're doing a video,you need to blog, they put fresh
actual words on the page, soGoogle can see it.
So you might stop blogging for afew weeks or months, or let's
(21:41):
say all of a sudden you're outof compliance.
Like one of the not so recentchanges was you had to be SSL
certified or in other words, youhad to have that little lock on
your website, so it was quoteunquote secure.
For most websites that weren'tselling websites, that made no
difference.
But Google didn't care, if youwere non-compliant with the SSL,
(22:02):
you could get dinged.
And I always say you could getdinged because they're kind of
not overtly objective about whothey dig and who they don't.
So that's one thing though, ifall of a sudden, you know the
deadline came and you were nolonger compliant with that SSL,
you might take it.
Eric Dickmann (22:20):
Okay.
Joey Donovan Guido (22:21):
Right?
And I've seen that happen prettyquick, where like you're not
that, you could take a dipwithin a week or two, right?
And then when you fix it, youcan pop back up within a week or
two.
You know if something happenswhere like all the SEO on a page
goes away, like somebody on theteam changed everything and
didn't say, Hey, Cuppa SEO, arewe good?
Do you need to optimize this?
(22:44):
You won't see changes like thathappen.
It could take a couple of weeks,but more likely it's going to
take a few weeks up to 90 daysfor you to start to see a dip.
And then you know, on the flipside of that is once you start
to make the corrections, itmight take up to 90 days for you
to get back to where you were.
Eric Dickmann (23:02):
It makes sense, but you're not looking at six to
nine months before Google startsto slowly recognize.
It's not you're back to squareone.
You can recover from themrelatively quickly.
Joey Donovan Guido (23:12):
Yes, you can pretty much recover from
anything unless you're reallydoing some black hat things.
Once I worked for a company whowas, shall not be named, it was
an international company who hada local business here in
Wisconsin, kind of a subsidiary,and they were breaking all kinds
(23:33):
of rules.
They were literally in what Icall the black hole of Google
Panda, you know, like black holein space, like you just
disappear, you're gone.
Eric Dickmann (23:40):
Yeah.
Joey Donovan Guido (23:40):
You know, you couldn't find them in a
keyword search, if you knew theURL you'd find them.
And that was it.
What they were doing is theywere publishing a blog post a
day and it was total garbage.
It was obvious that it was beingposted for SEO reasons, not for
value.
Eric Dickmann (23:56):
Gotcha.
Joey Donovan Guido (23:57):
That took me about six months to fix.
And it's not rocket science,there's ways to fix it.
And we took them from less than10 hits a day to over a hundred,
which you know, for a smalllocal business
Eric Dickmann (24:13):
that's a big deal.
Joey Donovan Guido (24:15):
It was you know, 10 times the amount of
traffic.
And it did help tremendouslywith their conversion, with
their business growth.
Eric Dickmann (24:23):
Interesting.
Yeah, it's a complex world.
You know as a podcast, host,people regularly reach out to me
to be guests on the show.
And I would say that at leasthalf of the inquiries that I get
are from SEO experts.
It's such an important elementof business, it's constantly
evolving and changing, andsomething that businesses need
to keep an eye on.
It's not like you can create awebsite, create some content one
(24:47):
time, and then just sit back for10 years and let it go, right?
It needs to constantly benurtured.
So for people who might belooking for an SEO expert to
come into their business andreally help them with their
website, how could they find youguys and get in touch with you?
Joey Donovan Guido (25:03):
Oh, yeah.
So they can find us just bygoing to cuppaseo.com.
We kind of named the businessoff of a cup of Joe.
Eric Dickmann (25:11):
Yeah, I like that.
Joey Donovan Guido (25:12):
Cause my name is Joey.
YSo yeah, cuppaseo.com, andthere's all kinds of great
information there too.
So if you just looking for moreinformation about SEO or kind of
like what to look for whenyou're hiring a web design firm
or if you're working with oneand you're wondering, Hey, are
they doing a good job?
Are they actually optimizing mywebsite or am I kind of burning
(25:32):
my money with them?
There's a lot of goodinformation there, but otherwise
just go, you know everything youneed to know is on there for web
design or SEO, and you can justgo ahead and hit the contact
button and get in touch.
Love to talk.
Eric Dickmann (25:45):
Hey And that's great.
I know yougot some great webinarreplays on the the website as
well that have some great tipsfor people.
So I'd encourage people to gocheck that out and we'll also
make sure that all of that islinked up in the show notes so
that people can find you.
Joey, thanks so much for comingon the podcast today.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation.
This is a fascinating topic.
Joey Donovan Guido (26:04):
Yeah, man.
You're welcome.
Thanks for having me today.
Eric Dickmann (26:06):
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of The Virtual CMO
podcast.
For more episodes, go tofiveechelon.com/podcast to
subscribe through your podcastplayer of choice.
And if you'd like to developconsistent lead flow and a
highly effective marketingstrategy, visit fiveechelon.com
(26:27):
to learn more about our VirtualCMO consulting services.
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