June 20, 2022 • 29 mins
In episode 117, host Eric Dickmann talks with Nirosha Methananda - VP of Marketing of Influ2, a person-based advertising solution for B2B marketers. We discuss BGM, buying group marketing, and the importance of understanding how buying decisions are influenced within B2B organizations.
Influ2 delivers ads directly to decision-makers at target accounts giving B2B marketing and sales teams tangible ad engagement metrics to drive activity. Their advertising solutions empower B2B companies to target and track individual ad engagement.
For more information and access to the resources mentioned in this episode, visit: https://fiveechelon.com/understanding-buying-group-marketing-s8ep2/
A fractional CMO can help build out a comprehensive marketing strategy and execute targeted campaigns designed to increase awareness and generate demand for your business...without the expense of a full-time hire.
The Five Echelon Group - Fractional CMO and strategic marketing advisory services designed for SMBs looking to grow. Learn more at:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Dickmann (00:01):
Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
In this podcast, we haveconversations with marketing
professionals who share thestrategies, tactics, and mindset
you can use to improve theeffectiveness of your marketing
activities and grow yourbusiness.
Today, I'm excited to haveguests Nirosha Methananda on the
(00:22):
program.
Nirosha is the Vice President ofMarketing at influ2, a person
based marketing platformushering in the next wave of
innovation through buying groupmarketing for B2B companies.
Nirosha, welcome to the program.
Glad to have you here today.
Nirosha Methananda (00:37):
Thanks, Eric.
I appreciate you having me onboard.
I'm looking forward to our chat.
Eric Dickmann (00:41):
Yeah, me too.
One of the things that I reallylove to talk about on this
program are tools that marketerscan use to really improve the
trajectory of their marketingactivities.
So I'm anxious to get into thatdiscussion with you and to
understand more about buyinggroup marketing, but to kick
things off today, tell me alittle bit more about your
background.
Nirosha Methananda (01:00):
Yeah, so my background I've been inmarketing
for the past 15 years or so.
I've come up through variousdifferent roles.
But most recently, Influ2 as youmentioned, it's a person based
advertising platform and I canget into that a little bit, but
prior to this, I was the VP ofmarketing at a company called
Bombora.
Eric Dickmann (01:20):
Sure.
Nirosha Methananda (01:21):
Leading intent data providers, and I was
there for about five and a halfyears.
So building up their brand,building up the category around
that.
And then prior to that, I waswith PWC Australia.
So you know, I went there, theyhad spun out their digital
consulting business and I wentthere to basically build a
(01:41):
publication for them and thenended up heading up their
marketing across their digitaland then tech consulting
business.
Eric Dickmann (01:48):
So what was really the attraction to the
role at Influ2?
Nirosha Methananda (01:52):
A couple of things.
Well, the primary thing wasaround making advertising
tangibles.
So you spend a lot of money onadvertising across your display
and social cause it's somethingyou know, you have to do as a
part of what your marketing mixwas.
And I am a notorious tight wad.
(02:14):
Yeah.
So I don't like, you know, Ikind of like spending money on
things that are actually that Ican see a tangible return.
And that was one of the thingsthat drew me to Influ2, because
it makes you display in socialmedia, your advertising tangible
in the sense, it allows you totarget who you want to target
from a person based perspective.
(02:35):
So cool, you've got youraccounts, but not everyone in
that account you want to engage.
You know, and it gives youinsights back to be able to you
know, really helps sales toactually make it like go and
take some action.
And I think that's one of thethings that I found in my
experience that B2B marketershave\ really struggled with, and
(02:57):
I've certainly struggled with.
So that was part of why I joinedalso, you know, we are see you,
I just loved the way he thinks.
He has a mathematical backgroundand that's not necessarily my
strength, so I love that.
But I also just loved the way hewas like, I want to build
(03:17):
something that's hard toreplicate and easy to sell.
So I liked the way you think.
Cool.
Eric Dickmann (03:23):
That's great.
No, that sounds like a goodjourney to get to where you are
today.
And advertising can be socomplex, right?
It seems like there's adspopping up literally everywhere,
it's hard to know exactly wherethe best places are to spend
your money to get the bestreturn.
But I'm really interested todrill down into this a little
bit further.
If you had to just sum it up,what is the problem that you're
(03:45):
trying to solve for yourcustomers?
Nirosha Methananda (03:48):
For me, it's making you a display and a
social media advertisingtangible, and actually like
measurable in terms of ROI.
That is the problem that we'resolving from that perspective.
Eric Dickmann (04:01):
So let's flip it around a little bit.
And where do you see businessesmaking mistakes with their
marketing.
You know, one of the things wetry to focus on on this program
is really helping marketingstrategists figure out what is
the best strategy to put inplace for their companies,
whether they're fractional,CMOs, like myself or their
business leaders within firms.
What mistakes do you see overand over again, that many people
(04:25):
are doing within thosestrategies?
Nirosha Methananda (04:28):
I don't think it's mistakes, but I think
there's opportunity to evolvewith in line with what the
customer expectations are.
So you know, if you come fromsay a bit, like the example I
use is, you know, as a B2Cconsumer, if I want to buy
something, so the example, Ijust did this recently, I need
an iPad.
(04:48):
So my iPad cracked in and saw myjourney as a B2C consumer was I
went and looked at thecomparison sites, I went and
built the iPad about 10 times Ilooked at all these articles
about like what was coming out.
You know, it took me about fourmonths to buy a new iPad.
So I do my research on it justby like that.
(05:12):
And the example varies like thenwhen I come to influ2, say, for
example, we were, you know, madea purchase decision around a
marketing automation platformaround HubSpot.
My behavior does not change.
I am still, I am still that B2Cconsumer and that those habits
are still there.
It's just in a B2B context,which means.
(05:33):
I'm not the one, you know, it'snot just me.
I'm buying HubSpot for, I'mbuying it for the team, it's for
the business.
There are other people involvedin that buying group and being
able to actually look at whothose people are and understand
what their patterns of behaviorare, not specifically, you know,
(05:55):
being, not specifically in theway I am, but certainly from a
needs perspective of what mypain points are and what the
team needs and so on and soforth.
I think that's really important.
And that's going to start tobecome a big differentiator,
especially in this digital worldand from what you expect from it
from a B2C consumer perspective,you know, I think my
(06:17):
expectations as a B2C consumer,I think for me, retail, excuse
me, retail sets a very high barin terms of being able to give
you recommendations or reviews,you know, give you all of that
information that you need andthose expectations are the same
in B2B as well.
(06:37):
It's just at a greater scalebecause there's more buyers in
that process.
So hopefully that answersquestion.
I don't think anyone is doinganything wrong.
I think we're all trying to movetowards achieving you know,
greater granularity andtargeting and I think this is
one of the keys to be a beingable to do that.
Eric Dickmann (06:57):
Well, if I replay a little bit of that, sort of in
my own language, what I hear yousaying is that oftentimes
businesses focus on thatdecision-maker right?
They focus on that person withinthe organization that is going
to say yes or no, but in fact,It's rarely a one point of
contact, one person that'smaking that decision.
There's all of these influencersthat also play a role.
(07:19):
And that is what you're definingthen as a buying group.
Nirosha Methananda (07:24):
Exactly.
Yeah I mean, I'm the primeexample with, so when we
purchased HubSpot, I asked ourHubSpot rep to basically put
together a business case for meto use so that I could take that
to our CEO and I could give thatto finance and basically say-
cool, we're going to make thisinvestment, here are all the
things that we're going to get,and this is how we're going to
(07:47):
use it.
So it's you know, it's not justme, like once I make that
decision, great.
And once the team's on board,whatever, but I still have legal
finance, you know, sales, etcetera, to who need to implement
it to consider.
So exactly like there are waymore people involved in that
buying group.
And that we're just, you know,we're a startup business, you
(08:10):
know, imagine that times 10 withan enterprise organization.
So that's when it starts tobecome quite interesting in
terms of mapping out- Okay, whatare those different departments?
How are they working togetherand how are you working to be
able to one target them and getthem on board, but to also use,
you know, expand within that,expand your footprint within
(08:32):
those organizations?
Eric Dickmann (08:34):
So when we look at what's in the marketplace
today, you have retargetingkinds of ads that use know
cookie or tracking pixels orother technologies to follow you
around and retarget ads.
And then we've also got thisconcept of, you know,
account-based marketing whereyou're focusing on marketing to
an account, but it's notnecessarily specific people
(08:57):
within that account, it's justpeople within that organization,
right?
So how does this solution fit inbetween these other technologies
or these other ideas within themarketplace?
Nirosha Methananda (09:08):
Yeah.
So it takes you know, withaccount-based marketing or with
traditional advertising.
Like you can look at certaindemographic and firmographic
factors to be able to segmentyour audience.
So what this does is it takes itto that next level of being able
to say- All right, you know, atMicrosoft, I'm just going to use
(09:28):
this example, you know, I wantto target the same or the VP of
Marketing, the head of demand,and the head of ABM and so on
and so forth.
So it actually is looking atthose specific people within
that organization to be able totarget, and then you know
serving them appropriate adcontent and then follow on
(09:48):
content through you know, thelanding page or whatever it is.
And then being able to one, beable to understand if they
engage with your content or viewyour content or you know engage
with in some tangible way, andaggregate that action and that
engagement activity back intothe system essentially, is what
(10:10):
it does.
And then look at that inaggregate and say- Okay, cool.
They've engaged with a campaignthat I don't know, say- You
know, you're doing, it's like asale or something or promotion,
and it's a direct permission.
Then you can have your salesteam perhaps follow up with it.
(10:31):
Some of our customers, you know,it depends on the context of the
content as well.
So say for example, we have oneof our customers, doctors, so
they're a legal software, theyessentially make red lining and
so on and so forth.
Eric Dickmann (10:48):
Okay.
Nirosha Methananda (10:48):
So one of the things that they did and
they used it for was to be ableto pull together, they pulled
together this article aroundautomated, like using AI to red
line.
And then that piece of contentthey targeted, you know, whoever
they wanted to target throughtheir existing customers and
prospects as well.
And that kicked off aconversation with the sales team
(11:11):
that wasn't- hey, do you want tohear more?
I'll have a demo, whatever itwas, it was more around- Hey,
what did you think of this pace?
You know, this is what our viewis, you know, do you agree with
it or whatever it was?
So it starts to turn it into abit more of a conversation, but
you know, there's a differencebetween, you know, being able to
put, put together the context ofa, of a sale or a promotion
(11:34):
versus creating a conversationthrough a piece of thought
leadership or whatever it is.
Eric Dickmann (11:38):
Hmm.
Now I can see this beingespecially useful at larger
enterprise accounts where you'retrying to influence a bigger
bureaucracy, the more people inthe decision chain.
How do you think that thisapplies also towards smaller
business where maybe there's asingle owner, but maybe some
influencers that are givingrecommendations.
(11:58):
How do you look at it?
Sort of up and down the sizespectrum of businesses?
Nirosha Methananda (12:03):
Yeah.
So, I mean, you do, I will sayyou do need to have scale for
this solution.
You know, there's a match rates,right?
So it's essentially how it worksis you either give us a list of
accounts and you can use yourideal customer profile to be
able to build back and getcontacts back, or there's a
connection for your list of whoyou're targeting at those
(12:25):
accounts.
But you know, there's like a 40to 50% match rates if you don't
have scale.
So if you're going afterbusinesses that are not
necessarily have that large,it's not necessarily going to
scale.
You do need to look at, you knowthose more I guess it depends on
what your classification of whata small business is, but, you
(12:47):
know, I'd say at least a hundredup to be able to have that
scale.
So, you know, from thatperspective, it is that type of
solution.
Eric Dickmann (12:57):
And that makes a lot of sense.
I think there are so many thingsout there that smaller
businesses don't have the luxuryof because they just don't have
the scale, they don't have thevolumes, It's very hard to prove
certain things out becauseyou're just not getting enough
repetitions of it.
Nirosha Methananda (13:12):
Yeah.
For what we look at is, youknow, like an ideal customer for
us is someone, it doesn'tnecessarily matter about the
size of the business, but it'swho your audience is, and if
you'll look, you know, if youraudience is you know, a hundred
and up, and where we've alsowhere the solution also good, is
(13:33):
where you have like a nicheaudience that you're trying to
reach.
So you know, if I use the sameexample with Dr.
Morris, you know, they wanted toreach a specific title on
LinkedIn.
But what happened was they putthe keyword in like to target
(13:54):
that title and they got backlike chaplin.
So I don't know what.
But they were targeting like,you know, leaders, like heads of
general councils and so on andso forth.
And then in that generaltargeting, they got back like
chaplains of churches, whichwasn't, who they were targeting.
(14:16):
And so.
That's kind of where it makes adifference.
You know, when you know whoyou're going after, it's a very
niche audience, then that, thatis where it's quite powerful.
It's the same for, we haveanother customer, one door
they're retail planning, digitalplanning for retail is, and so
like they go, they want to workwith some of the largest
retailers, but obviously likethose retail organizations are
(14:38):
huge.
So you want to get to the demandand planning, planners at those
organizations and that's whythey need to be quite specific
about who they're reaching.
So that's where it's quitepowerful from that perspective.
Eric Dickmann (14:54):
Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to
the podcast.
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Services.
Now back to the podcast.
I'm curious, even if you can'tshare an exact name, but can you
sort of contrast what some ofthese companies were doing
before they started working withyour platform and after?
What was their approach and howdid that change once they
started using the solution?
Nirosha Methananda (15:58):
Yeah.
They were using like thetraditional channels that you
would think that they would beusing from that perspective.
So with Influ2, you know, we gothrough six different channels.
So Facebook, Instagram,LinkedIn, Yahoo Display, Google
Display, and Amazon.
(16:18):
And basically, you know, forquite a few of our customers,
what they do is they end up youknow, depending on what their
need is like, say for example,the customers I've referred to
during our conversation.
What they ended up doing is thatstarts to become.
What they use from a demanddriver perspective.
(16:40):
You know and sometimes they useit in concert with their lead
scoring.
Sometimes, depending on likewhat the level of engagement is
and what the context of thecontent is that they're
promoting, they use it directlywith their sales team to be able
to you know- to reach out and dothe prioritization and outreach
from that perspective, othersuse it, as I mentioned, like
(17:03):
through the lead scoring, as,you know, to be able to help
with understanding the waitingand the engagement and or for
their marketing nurture, andthen that is essentially like
will translate through to thesales team.
But those are, that's generallyhow it's being used.
when we drink our own champagne,and actually before I came on
(17:24):
board, that's all Influ2 isdoing, we are only using its own
platform to you know, to driveits marketing.
Some things that we've beenexperimenting with, what we're
thinking about is using, we douse it for events as well, it
can be really powerful.
For example, we went to theForrester Conference recently,
(17:47):
you know, we had one of our adsgoing as well as you know to our
specific target.
And then I followed up with anemail and we engage with that
target at the event, they, youknow, came to dinner and she was
like, it was kind of lovely tohear her raving about the
approach, because obviously whenyou'll see you're sitting there,
you're kinda like, yep, great.
Eric Dickmann (18:08):
So much you want to hear.
Nirosha Methananda (18:09):
Right.
Yeah, so that was, you know,that's one way it can be used,
you know, to be able to engagethrough like, prior to events
and make sure that you're, youknow, meeting the people that
you need to meet with and, and,and taking that approach.
Um, another way that we'relooking at potentially using it
is through, um, PR and AR and,and, and looking at it from that
(18:30):
perspective.
So I think that, you know, the.
It's a net it's still nascentfrom a product perspective and a
brand perspective and market.
And I think these are some ofthe use cases that need to get
tested out.
Eric Dickmann (18:43):
I'm curious too, because we've certainly seen in
the news, the big hit thatFacebook took due to some of
Apple's privacy changes, Snap,same thing.
Where do you see the futurebeing in terms of how solutions
can work, and still fall intothese new privacy rules that are
sort of restricting reallywhat's been free reign for a lot
(19:06):
of marketers for a long time interms of tracking and using
these kinds of tools to be ableto follow people through buying
cycles.
Nirosha Methananda (19:14):
Yeah.
So I think, I mean, that's theone thing with Inful2, because
we go through those platforms,they do have, you know, they
have permission.
That is their data and it'stheir information.
And we just allow like an accessto it.
I think broadly with like withprivacy, I don't know.
(19:36):
I think there needs to be a lotof education that is done around
it from both a marketingperspective, because I think it
has been a abused, as you said,it's being free reign, and it is
about being more mindful andmore conscious.
So I go back to that- Okay,cool.
What is it that your customeractually needs?
(19:57):
What are they interested in anddon't annoy them?
That's a big thing for me.
I think from a consumerperspective, there's a lot of
education that needs to go withthat as well, because you know I
think personally, Sure, you havemy data, right?
But what I get in return forthat data, is it relevant?
(20:19):
Is it well I was just chattingto a couple of pieces about
this, but one of the things islike from a B2B perspective, one
of the things I do or B2Cperspective rather I will go and
fill up my cup with you know,whatever I want to buy.
And I kind of know that aretailer is going to, then I
know that they're tracking mycar, so they'll send me a
(20:40):
reminder.
If stuff stays in my cart,they'll either send me a
discount or you know, they'llhave a sale and eventually
everything will be on sale.
I think knowing that they knowme, knowing that they have that
information.
That's my, I'm like cool, youcan give me as many discounts as
you like and I think from aconsumer perspective, we don't
(21:01):
necessarily know how that worksand there's not enough
transparency around that.
And I think that's what needs tochange, and I think that will
become the future because it's,you know, I'm of a different
generation, but I'm sure, youknow, the generations that come
after me will quickly veryquickly learn what that behavior
(21:23):
is and what you need to do fromthat perspective, and then
that'll just become part andparcel of how you interact
online from that perspective.
Eric Dickmann (21:32):
I think that's a great way to frame it.
Yeah, because privacy is reallya bunch of data, right?
If you really get it down to it,it's a bunch of data, and are
you getting anything for thedata that you're giving up?
And I think the more consumerswise up to how they can leverage
their own data, I think it's afair trade-off to give some of
your data away in return forsomething else.
Nirosha Methananda (21:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, a friend of mine andhe's very much into cars.
And he was saying, you know, hewas looking for some specific
wheel or whatever it was.
And he was like, yeah, all Ineed to do is, you know, have a
talk about it or you know, havea chat about it or whatever, and
then I start getting ads forwhat I need and that's like,
(22:16):
it's cool.
So you start using thattechnology for your own
purposes, and I think that's thepart a lot of people miss in
terms of when they look at thatdata.
So, yeah,
Eric Dickmann (22:30):
Ah, that's a great example.
I've done the same myself.
I find this especially works onInstagram is if you search for
something and you've allowedthat cross site tracking,
immediately you will startseeing other vendors that offer
those same services showing upon your Instagram feed.
Nirosha Methananda (22:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so that's the thing, becausewhat will happen is cool so
you're starting to get all ofthis information, and then from
a,vendor perspective or whoeverthe seller is, they have to
differentiate, right?
So they need to start like, it'salmost like going back to the
(23:05):
basics and from a marketingperspective of like, okay, how
are you differentiating?
It's price, product?
What do you know, like goingback to those things, to be able
to actually stand out in thecrowd.
And that's why, you know, beingable to really focus in and
target who you really want tospeak to is super important, you
(23:26):
know, from perspective,especially B2B, because, you
know, it's time and effort andresource, which, you know,
especially going into the marketthat we're going into, we can't
ignore it.
I think that's going to becomeincreasingly important to
businesses from an efficiencyperspective.
Eric Dickmann (23:45):
So what advice would you give a business,
whether or not they're going touse a platform like yours, but
if they wanted to do more aroundbuying group marketing, What
would you say is a good firststep?
How could they start going downthat path?
Nirosha Methananda (23:58):
Yeah.
So, I mean I think it's reallyimportant.
Like I think strategy is such animportant foundation.
I think sometimes it gets like,you have to do a strategy.
You know, I don't want to put inthe work around it.
They just want to get going, butlike, you know, my previous CMO,
does he say measure twice, cutonce,
Eric Dickmann (24:20):
Right.
Nirosha Methananda (24:21):
Yeah, that really stuck with me.
And I think that's what strategydoes.
So being really firm around-Okay, who are we going after?
What's our ideal customerprofile.
Which accounts are we goingafter?
Especially if you are taking aaccount-based marketing
approach.
I think, you know, that's justyou know the peanut butter.
(24:42):
Oh you know, that you need tojust have, and then
understanding who your personasare within like understanding
who the buying group is, whoyour key stakeholders are, who
those personas are, whatmotivates and drives them.
And one of the things that Ihighlight in that, it's not just
like, what drives them as youknow, a marketing professional
(25:04):
or sales professional.
It's like, what personallydrives them?
What drives them in terms oftheir aspirations or
inspirations or one thing that Isort of do and have the luxury
of being able to do this is, youknow, when I meet people, I
listen to what you know, to whothey are and whether they have
(25:27):
pets, whether they, you know,what their birthdays are, their
preferences are, what they don'tlike.
And having, there's a greatopportunity, I think to
accumulate that information andreally, really have that like
one-to-one kind of experience,but to have that you need to
have one, your strategy and two,you need to have the data.
(25:49):
You know, that's superimportant.
I think that is where you wouldstart and that's where I would
start with it from a coreperspective.
and then systems,
Eric Dickmann (26:01):
Yeah.
Well, I certainly love that.
You know, I'm an advocate ofstrategy each and every time we
do one of these episodes,because marketing, you know,
it's a cost, it's an expense.
And if you're doing a bunch ofdisconnected marketing
activities that really don'thave a strategy behind them, you
can quickly waste a lot ofmoney.
No place more easily thanadvertising, right?
Advertising can drain your bankbalance pretty quickly, and if
(26:24):
you're not doing the rightthings or being able to track
the conversions, you could bewasting a lot of money.
So I think that's great advice.
As we kind of bring things to aclose here, if a company wanted
to engage with influ2, learnmore about the solution, What is
the best next step?
Is it a demo?
What do you like to guide peopledown to learn more about the
solution?
Nirosha Methananda (26:43):
Yeah.
Please feel free to reach outand contact us.
You know, we have a demo, pleasego to our website, we've
recently migrated it so I wouldlove to, and I've updated it,
that's been one of my projects.
So I would love to have anyfeedback on it and you can
definitely reach out.
I mean, I'm on LinkedIn as well,so you can feel free to reach
(27:05):
out to me.
I'm always happy to have theconversations.
You know I'm pretty transparentaround what will work and what
won't work cause I'm a marketer,I come from that perspective.
So I'm a little bit, I haveprobably set my, my sales team
don't like that approach.
But yeah, it's always been goodto hear what people's situations
(27:26):
are and then be able to advisethem what the best thing is.
Eric Dickmann (27:29):
That's perfect.
So tell us how they can find youonline as well as the company
online.
Nirosha Methananda (27:35):
Okay, so it's Influ2, I N F L U 2.com.
That's how you can find it.
And then I'm Nirosha Methananda,you can find me on LinkedIn.
I'm pretty sure no one else hasmy name in the world.
So it's a pretty unique one.
Please feel free to reach out tous.
Eric Dickmann (27:58):
Perfect, that's great.
The name flows off your tongueso much better than it flowed
off of mine.
Nirosha Methananda (28:05):
Yeah.
I've had you know, 40 odd yearsof having to say that one.
Eric Dickmann (28:10):
No, that's great.
I really appreciate your timetoday, I've really enjoyed our
conversation, it's a fascinatingsolution.
I love the idea behind buyinggroup marketing.
I think it's great and veryinterested to learn more about
your solution as well.
So thank you so much for takingthe time and I'll make sure that
we have all those links that youmentioned in the show notes so
that people can find it.
Nirosha Methananda (28:28):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, Eric.
I appreciate having theconversation with you.
Eric Dickmann (28:34):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
The Virtual CMO podcast.
For more episodes, go tofiveechelon.com/podcast to
subscribe through your podcastplayer of choice.
And if you'd like to developconsistent lead flow and a
highly effective marketingstrategy, visit fiveechelon.com
to learn more about our VirtualCMO consulting services.
Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
In this podcast, we haveconversations with marketing
professionals who share thestrategies, tactics, and mindset
you can use to improve theeffectiveness of your marketing
activities and grow yourbusiness.
Today, I'm excited to haveguests Nirosha Methananda on the
(00:22):
program.
Nirosha is the Vice President ofMarketing at influ2, a person
based marketing platformushering in the next wave of
innovation through buying groupmarketing for B2B companies.
Nirosha, welcome to the program.
Glad to have you here today.
Nirosha Methananda (00:37):
Thanks, Eric.
I appreciate you having me onboard.
I'm looking forward to our chat.
Eric Dickmann (00:41):
Yeah, me too.
One of the things that I reallylove to talk about on this
program are tools that marketerscan use to really improve the
trajectory of their marketingactivities.
So I'm anxious to get into thatdiscussion with you and to
understand more about buyinggroup marketing, but to kick
things off today, tell me alittle bit more about your
background.
Nirosha Methananda (01:00):
Yeah, so my background I've been inmarketing
for the past 15 years or so.
I've come up through variousdifferent roles.
But most recently, Influ2 as youmentioned, it's a person based
advertising platform and I canget into that a little bit, but
prior to this, I was the VP ofmarketing at a company called
Bombora.
Eric Dickmann (01:20):
Sure.
Nirosha Methananda (01:21):
Leading intent data providers, and I was
there for about five and a halfyears.
So building up their brand,building up the category around
that.
And then prior to that, I waswith PWC Australia.
So you know, I went there, theyhad spun out their digital
consulting business and I wentthere to basically build a
(01:41):
publication for them and thenended up heading up their
marketing across their digitaland then tech consulting
business.
Eric Dickmann (01:48):
So what was really the attraction to the
role at Influ2?
Nirosha Methananda (01:52):
A couple of things.
Well, the primary thing wasaround making advertising
tangibles.
So you spend a lot of money onadvertising across your display
and social cause it's somethingyou know, you have to do as a
part of what your marketing mixwas.
And I am a notorious tight wad.
(02:14):
Yeah.
So I don't like, you know, Ikind of like spending money on
things that are actually that Ican see a tangible return.
And that was one of the thingsthat drew me to Influ2, because
it makes you display in socialmedia, your advertising tangible
in the sense, it allows you totarget who you want to target
from a person based perspective.
(02:35):
So cool, you've got youraccounts, but not everyone in
that account you want to engage.
You know, and it gives youinsights back to be able to you
know, really helps sales toactually make it like go and
take some action.
And I think that's one of thethings that I found in my
experience that B2B marketershave\ really struggled with, and
(02:57):
I've certainly struggled with.
So that was part of why I joinedalso, you know, we are see you,
I just loved the way he thinks.
He has a mathematical backgroundand that's not necessarily my
strength, so I love that.
But I also just loved the way hewas like, I want to build
(03:17):
something that's hard toreplicate and easy to sell.
So I liked the way you think.
Cool.
Eric Dickmann (03:23):
That's great.
No, that sounds like a goodjourney to get to where you are
today.
And advertising can be socomplex, right?
It seems like there's adspopping up literally everywhere,
it's hard to know exactly wherethe best places are to spend
your money to get the bestreturn.
But I'm really interested todrill down into this a little
bit further.
If you had to just sum it up,what is the problem that you're
(03:45):
trying to solve for yourcustomers?
Nirosha Methananda (03:48):
For me, it's making you a display and a
social media advertisingtangible, and actually like
measurable in terms of ROI.
That is the problem that we'resolving from that perspective.
Eric Dickmann (04:01):
So let's flip it around a little bit.
And where do you see businessesmaking mistakes with their
marketing.
You know, one of the things wetry to focus on on this program
is really helping marketingstrategists figure out what is
the best strategy to put inplace for their companies,
whether they're fractional,CMOs, like myself or their
business leaders within firms.
What mistakes do you see overand over again, that many people
(04:25):
are doing within thosestrategies?
Nirosha Methananda (04:28):
I don't think it's mistakes, but I think
there's opportunity to evolvewith in line with what the
customer expectations are.
So you know, if you come fromsay a bit, like the example I
use is, you know, as a B2Cconsumer, if I want to buy
something, so the example, Ijust did this recently, I need
an iPad.
(04:48):
So my iPad cracked in and saw myjourney as a B2C consumer was I
went and looked at thecomparison sites, I went and
built the iPad about 10 times Ilooked at all these articles
about like what was coming out.
You know, it took me about fourmonths to buy a new iPad.
So I do my research on it justby like that.
(05:12):
And the example varies like thenwhen I come to influ2, say, for
example, we were, you know, madea purchase decision around a
marketing automation platformaround HubSpot.
My behavior does not change.
I am still, I am still that B2Cconsumer and that those habits
are still there.
It's just in a B2B context,which means.
(05:33):
I'm not the one, you know, it'snot just me.
I'm buying HubSpot for, I'mbuying it for the team, it's for
the business.
There are other people involvedin that buying group and being
able to actually look at whothose people are and understand
what their patterns of behaviorare, not specifically, you know,
(05:55):
being, not specifically in theway I am, but certainly from a
needs perspective of what mypain points are and what the
team needs and so on and soforth.
I think that's really important.
And that's going to start tobecome a big differentiator,
especially in this digital worldand from what you expect from it
from a B2C consumer perspective,you know, I think my
(06:17):
expectations as a B2C consumer,I think for me, retail, excuse
me, retail sets a very high barin terms of being able to give
you recommendations or reviews,you know, give you all of that
information that you need andthose expectations are the same
in B2B as well.
(06:37):
It's just at a greater scalebecause there's more buyers in
that process.
So hopefully that answersquestion.
I don't think anyone is doinganything wrong.
I think we're all trying to movetowards achieving you know,
greater granularity andtargeting and I think this is
one of the keys to be a beingable to do that.
Eric Dickmann (06:57):
Well, if I replay a little bit of that, sort of in
my own language, what I hear yousaying is that oftentimes
businesses focus on thatdecision-maker right?
They focus on that person withinthe organization that is going
to say yes or no, but in fact,It's rarely a one point of
contact, one person that'smaking that decision.
There's all of these influencersthat also play a role.
(07:19):
And that is what you're definingthen as a buying group.
Nirosha Methananda (07:24):
Exactly.
Yeah I mean, I'm the primeexample with, so when we
purchased HubSpot, I asked ourHubSpot rep to basically put
together a business case for meto use so that I could take that
to our CEO and I could give thatto finance and basically say-
cool, we're going to make thisinvestment, here are all the
things that we're going to get,and this is how we're going to
(07:47):
use it.
So it's you know, it's not justme, like once I make that
decision, great.
And once the team's on board,whatever, but I still have legal
finance, you know, sales, etcetera, to who need to implement
it to consider.
So exactly like there are waymore people involved in that
buying group.
And that we're just, you know,we're a startup business, you
(08:10):
know, imagine that times 10 withan enterprise organization.
So that's when it starts tobecome quite interesting in
terms of mapping out- Okay, whatare those different departments?
How are they working togetherand how are you working to be
able to one target them and getthem on board, but to also use,
you know, expand within that,expand your footprint within
(08:32):
those organizations?
Eric Dickmann (08:34):
So when we look at what's in the marketplace
today, you have retargetingkinds of ads that use know
cookie or tracking pixels orother technologies to follow you
around and retarget ads.
And then we've also got thisconcept of, you know,
account-based marketing whereyou're focusing on marketing to
an account, but it's notnecessarily specific people
(08:57):
within that account, it's justpeople within that organization,
right?
So how does this solution fit inbetween these other technologies
or these other ideas within themarketplace?
Nirosha Methananda (09:08):
Yeah.
So it takes you know, withaccount-based marketing or with
traditional advertising.
Like you can look at certaindemographic and firmographic
factors to be able to segmentyour audience.
So what this does is it takes itto that next level of being able
to say- All right, you know, atMicrosoft, I'm just going to use
(09:28):
this example, you know, I wantto target the same or the VP of
Marketing, the head of demand,and the head of ABM and so on
and so forth.
So it actually is looking atthose specific people within
that organization to be able totarget, and then you know
serving them appropriate adcontent and then follow on
(09:48):
content through you know, thelanding page or whatever it is.
And then being able to one, beable to understand if they
engage with your content or viewyour content or you know engage
with in some tangible way, andaggregate that action and that
engagement activity back intothe system essentially, is what
(10:10):
it does.
And then look at that inaggregate and say- Okay, cool.
They've engaged with a campaignthat I don't know, say- You
know, you're doing, it's like asale or something or promotion,
and it's a direct permission.
Then you can have your salesteam perhaps follow up with it.
(10:31):
Some of our customers, you know,it depends on the context of the
content as well.
So say for example, we have oneof our customers, doctors, so
they're a legal software, theyessentially make red lining and
so on and so forth.
Eric Dickmann (10:48):
Okay.
Nirosha Methananda (10:48):
So one of the things that they did and
they used it for was to be ableto pull together, they pulled
together this article aroundautomated, like using AI to red
line.
And then that piece of contentthey targeted, you know, whoever
they wanted to target throughtheir existing customers and
prospects as well.
And that kicked off aconversation with the sales team
(11:11):
that wasn't- hey, do you want tohear more?
I'll have a demo, whatever itwas, it was more around- Hey,
what did you think of this pace?
You know, this is what our viewis, you know, do you agree with
it or whatever it was?
So it starts to turn it into abit more of a conversation, but
you know, there's a differencebetween, you know, being able to
put, put together the context ofa, of a sale or a promotion
(11:34):
versus creating a conversationthrough a piece of thought
leadership or whatever it is.
Eric Dickmann (11:38):
Hmm.
Now I can see this beingespecially useful at larger
enterprise accounts where you'retrying to influence a bigger
bureaucracy, the more people inthe decision chain.
How do you think that thisapplies also towards smaller
business where maybe there's asingle owner, but maybe some
influencers that are givingrecommendations.
(11:58):
How do you look at it?
Sort of up and down the sizespectrum of businesses?
Nirosha Methananda (12:03):
Yeah.
So, I mean, you do, I will sayyou do need to have scale for
this solution.
You know, there's a match rates,right?
So it's essentially how it worksis you either give us a list of
accounts and you can use yourideal customer profile to be
able to build back and getcontacts back, or there's a
connection for your list of whoyou're targeting at those
(12:25):
accounts.
But you know, there's like a 40to 50% match rates if you don't
have scale.
So if you're going afterbusinesses that are not
necessarily have that large,it's not necessarily going to
scale.
You do need to look at, you knowthose more I guess it depends on
what your classification of whata small business is, but, you
(12:47):
know, I'd say at least a hundredup to be able to have that
scale.
So, you know, from thatperspective, it is that type of
solution.
Eric Dickmann (12:57):
And that makes a lot of sense.
I think there are so many thingsout there that smaller
businesses don't have the luxuryof because they just don't have
the scale, they don't have thevolumes, It's very hard to prove
certain things out becauseyou're just not getting enough
repetitions of it.
Nirosha Methananda (13:12):
Yeah.
For what we look at is, youknow, like an ideal customer for
us is someone, it doesn'tnecessarily matter about the
size of the business, but it'swho your audience is, and if
you'll look, you know, if youraudience is you know, a hundred
and up, and where we've alsowhere the solution also good, is
(13:33):
where you have like a nicheaudience that you're trying to
reach.
So you know, if I use the sameexample with Dr.
Morris, you know, they wanted toreach a specific title on
LinkedIn.
But what happened was they putthe keyword in like to target
(13:54):
that title and they got backlike chaplin.
So I don't know what.
But they were targeting like,you know, leaders, like heads of
general councils and so on andso forth.
And then in that generaltargeting, they got back like
chaplains of churches, whichwasn't, who they were targeting.
(14:16):
And so.
That's kind of where it makes adifference.
You know, when you know whoyou're going after, it's a very
niche audience, then that, thatis where it's quite powerful.
It's the same for, we haveanother customer, one door
they're retail planning, digitalplanning for retail is, and so
like they go, they want to workwith some of the largest
retailers, but obviously likethose retail organizations are
(14:38):
huge.
So you want to get to the demandand planning, planners at those
organizations and that's whythey need to be quite specific
about who they're reaching.
So that's where it's quitepowerful from that perspective.
Eric Dickmann (14:54):
Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to
the podcast.
But first, are you ready togrow, scale, and take your
marketing to the next level?
If so, The Five Echelon Group'sVirtual CMO consulting service
may be a great fit for you.
We can help build a strategicmarketing plan for your business
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(15:15):
We'll focus on areas like how toattract more leads.
How to create compellingmessaging that resonates with
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How to strategically package andposition your products and
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How to increase lead conversion,improve your margins, and scale
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schedule a consultation, go tofiveechelon.com and click on
(15:38):
Services.
Now back to the podcast.
I'm curious, even if you can'tshare an exact name, but can you
sort of contrast what some ofthese companies were doing
before they started working withyour platform and after?
What was their approach and howdid that change once they
started using the solution?
Nirosha Methananda (15:58):
Yeah.
They were using like thetraditional channels that you
would think that they would beusing from that perspective.
So with Influ2, you know, we gothrough six different channels.
So Facebook, Instagram,LinkedIn, Yahoo Display, Google
Display, and Amazon.
(16:18):
And basically, you know, forquite a few of our customers,
what they do is they end up youknow, depending on what their
need is like, say for example,the customers I've referred to
during our conversation.
What they ended up doing is thatstarts to become.
What they use from a demanddriver perspective.
(16:40):
You know and sometimes they useit in concert with their lead
scoring.
Sometimes, depending on likewhat the level of engagement is
and what the context of thecontent is that they're
promoting, they use it directlywith their sales team to be able
to you know- to reach out and dothe prioritization and outreach
from that perspective, othersuse it, as I mentioned, like
(17:03):
through the lead scoring, as,you know, to be able to help
with understanding the waitingand the engagement and or for
their marketing nurture, andthen that is essentially like
will translate through to thesales team.
But those are, that's generallyhow it's being used.
when we drink our own champagne,and actually before I came on
(17:24):
board, that's all Influ2 isdoing, we are only using its own
platform to you know, to driveits marketing.
Some things that we've beenexperimenting with, what we're
thinking about is using, we douse it for events as well, it
can be really powerful.
For example, we went to theForrester Conference recently,
(17:47):
you know, we had one of our adsgoing as well as you know to our
specific target.
And then I followed up with anemail and we engage with that
target at the event, they, youknow, came to dinner and she was
like, it was kind of lovely tohear her raving about the
approach, because obviously whenyou'll see you're sitting there,
you're kinda like, yep, great.
Eric Dickmann (18:08):
So much you want to hear.
Nirosha Methananda (18:09):
Right.
Yeah, so that was, you know,that's one way it can be used,
you know, to be able to engagethrough like, prior to events
and make sure that you're, youknow, meeting the people that
you need to meet with and, and,and taking that approach.
Um, another way that we'relooking at potentially using it
is through, um, PR and AR and,and, and looking at it from that
(18:30):
perspective.
So I think that, you know, the.
It's a net it's still nascentfrom a product perspective and a
brand perspective and market.
And I think these are some ofthe use cases that need to get
tested out.
Eric Dickmann (18:43):
I'm curious too, because we've certainly seen in
the news, the big hit thatFacebook took due to some of
Apple's privacy changes, Snap,same thing.
Where do you see the futurebeing in terms of how solutions
can work, and still fall intothese new privacy rules that are
sort of restricting reallywhat's been free reign for a lot
(19:06):
of marketers for a long time interms of tracking and using
these kinds of tools to be ableto follow people through buying
cycles.
Nirosha Methananda (19:14):
Yeah.
So I think, I mean, that's theone thing with Inful2, because
we go through those platforms,they do have, you know, they
have permission.
That is their data and it'stheir information.
And we just allow like an accessto it.
I think broadly with like withprivacy, I don't know.
(19:36):
I think there needs to be a lotof education that is done around
it from both a marketingperspective, because I think it
has been a abused, as you said,it's being free reign, and it is
about being more mindful andmore conscious.
So I go back to that- Okay,cool.
What is it that your customeractually needs?
(19:57):
What are they interested in anddon't annoy them?
That's a big thing for me.
I think from a consumerperspective, there's a lot of
education that needs to go withthat as well, because you know I
think personally, Sure, you havemy data, right?
But what I get in return forthat data, is it relevant?
(20:19):
Is it well I was just chattingto a couple of pieces about
this, but one of the things islike from a B2B perspective, one
of the things I do or B2Cperspective rather I will go and
fill up my cup with you know,whatever I want to buy.
And I kind of know that aretailer is going to, then I
know that they're tracking mycar, so they'll send me a
(20:40):
reminder.
If stuff stays in my cart,they'll either send me a
discount or you know, they'llhave a sale and eventually
everything will be on sale.
I think knowing that they knowme, knowing that they have that
information.
That's my, I'm like cool, youcan give me as many discounts as
you like and I think from aconsumer perspective, we don't
(21:01):
necessarily know how that worksand there's not enough
transparency around that.
And I think that's what needs tochange, and I think that will
become the future because it's,you know, I'm of a different
generation, but I'm sure, youknow, the generations that come
after me will quickly veryquickly learn what that behavior
(21:23):
is and what you need to do fromthat perspective, and then
that'll just become part andparcel of how you interact
online from that perspective.
Eric Dickmann (21:32):
I think that's a great way to frame it.
Yeah, because privacy is reallya bunch of data, right?
If you really get it down to it,it's a bunch of data, and are
you getting anything for thedata that you're giving up?
And I think the more consumerswise up to how they can leverage
their own data, I think it's afair trade-off to give some of
your data away in return forsomething else.
Nirosha Methananda (21:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, a friend of mine andhe's very much into cars.
And he was saying, you know, hewas looking for some specific
wheel or whatever it was.
And he was like, yeah, all Ineed to do is, you know, have a
talk about it or you know, havea chat about it or whatever, and
then I start getting ads forwhat I need and that's like,
(22:16):
it's cool.
So you start using thattechnology for your own
purposes, and I think that's thepart a lot of people miss in
terms of when they look at thatdata.
So, yeah,
Eric Dickmann (22:30):
Ah, that's a great example.
I've done the same myself.
I find this especially works onInstagram is if you search for
something and you've allowedthat cross site tracking,
immediately you will startseeing other vendors that offer
those same services showing upon your Instagram feed.
Nirosha Methananda (22:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so that's the thing, becausewhat will happen is cool so
you're starting to get all ofthis information, and then from
a,vendor perspective or whoeverthe seller is, they have to
differentiate, right?
So they need to start like, it'salmost like going back to the
(23:05):
basics and from a marketingperspective of like, okay, how
are you differentiating?
It's price, product?
What do you know, like goingback to those things, to be able
to actually stand out in thecrowd.
And that's why, you know, beingable to really focus in and
target who you really want tospeak to is super important, you
(23:26):
know, from perspective,especially B2B, because, you
know, it's time and effort andresource, which, you know,
especially going into the marketthat we're going into, we can't
ignore it.
I think that's going to becomeincreasingly important to
businesses from an efficiencyperspective.
Eric Dickmann (23:45):
So what advice would you give a business,
whether or not they're going touse a platform like yours, but
if they wanted to do more aroundbuying group marketing, What
would you say is a good firststep?
How could they start going downthat path?
Nirosha Methananda (23:58):
Yeah.
So, I mean I think it's reallyimportant.
Like I think strategy is such animportant foundation.
I think sometimes it gets like,you have to do a strategy.
You know, I don't want to put inthe work around it.
They just want to get going, butlike, you know, my previous CMO,
does he say measure twice, cutonce,
Eric Dickmann (24:20):
Right.
Nirosha Methananda (24:21):
Yeah, that really stuck with me.
And I think that's what strategydoes.
So being really firm around-Okay, who are we going after?
What's our ideal customerprofile.
Which accounts are we goingafter?
Especially if you are taking aaccount-based marketing
approach.
I think, you know, that's justyou know the peanut butter.
(24:42):
Oh you know, that you need tojust have, and then
understanding who your personasare within like understanding
who the buying group is, whoyour key stakeholders are, who
those personas are, whatmotivates and drives them.
And one of the things that Ihighlight in that, it's not just
like, what drives them as youknow, a marketing professional
(25:04):
or sales professional.
It's like, what personallydrives them?
What drives them in terms oftheir aspirations or
inspirations or one thing that Isort of do and have the luxury
of being able to do this is, youknow, when I meet people, I
listen to what you know, to whothey are and whether they have
(25:27):
pets, whether they, you know,what their birthdays are, their
preferences are, what they don'tlike.
And having, there's a greatopportunity, I think to
accumulate that information andreally, really have that like
one-to-one kind of experience,but to have that you need to
have one, your strategy and two,you need to have the data.
(25:49):
You know, that's superimportant.
I think that is where you wouldstart and that's where I would
start with it from a coreperspective.
and then systems,
Eric Dickmann (26:01):
Yeah.
Well, I certainly love that.
You know, I'm an advocate ofstrategy each and every time we
do one of these episodes,because marketing, you know,
it's a cost, it's an expense.
And if you're doing a bunch ofdisconnected marketing
activities that really don'thave a strategy behind them, you
can quickly waste a lot ofmoney.
No place more easily thanadvertising, right?
Advertising can drain your bankbalance pretty quickly, and if
(26:24):
you're not doing the rightthings or being able to track
the conversions, you could bewasting a lot of money.
So I think that's great advice.
As we kind of bring things to aclose here, if a company wanted
to engage with influ2, learnmore about the solution, What is
the best next step?
Is it a demo?
What do you like to guide peopledown to learn more about the
solution?
Nirosha Methananda (26:43):
Yeah.
Please feel free to reach outand contact us.
You know, we have a demo, pleasego to our website, we've
recently migrated it so I wouldlove to, and I've updated it,
that's been one of my projects.
So I would love to have anyfeedback on it and you can
definitely reach out.
I mean, I'm on LinkedIn as well,so you can feel free to reach
(27:05):
out to me.
I'm always happy to have theconversations.
You know I'm pretty transparentaround what will work and what
won't work cause I'm a marketer,I come from that perspective.
So I'm a little bit, I haveprobably set my, my sales team
don't like that approach.
But yeah, it's always been goodto hear what people's situations
(27:26):
are and then be able to advisethem what the best thing is.
Eric Dickmann (27:29):
That's perfect.
So tell us how they can find youonline as well as the company
online.
Nirosha Methananda (27:35):
Okay, so it's Influ2, I N F L U 2.com.
That's how you can find it.
And then I'm Nirosha Methananda,you can find me on LinkedIn.
I'm pretty sure no one else hasmy name in the world.
So it's a pretty unique one.
Please feel free to reach out tous.
Eric Dickmann (27:58):
Perfect, that's great.
The name flows off your tongueso much better than it flowed
off of mine.
Nirosha Methananda (28:05):
Yeah.
I've had you know, 40 odd yearsof having to say that one.
Eric Dickmann (28:10):
No, that's great.
I really appreciate your timetoday, I've really enjoyed our
conversation, it's a fascinatingsolution.
I love the idea behind buyinggroup marketing.
I think it's great and veryinterested to learn more about
your solution as well.
So thank you so much for takingthe time and I'll make sure that
we have all those links that youmentioned in the show notes so
that people can find it.
Nirosha Methananda (28:28):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, Eric.
I appreciate having theconversation with you.
Eric Dickmann (28:34):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
The Virtual CMO podcast.
For more episodes, go tofiveechelon.com/podcast to
subscribe through your podcastplayer of choice.
And if you'd like to developconsistent lead flow and a
highly effective marketingstrategy, visit fiveechelon.com
to learn more about our VirtualCMO consulting services.
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