July 14, 2019 • 43 mins
Innovation strategist and entrepreneur, Dalia Katan is leading the conversation on how diversity and human connection can unlock untapped growth for organizations. Dalia joins us to share her practical research-based tips for creating workplace environments that can reduce prejudice and improve social cohesion across gender, race, ethnicity, and political ideologies. We also start to ask what it looks like to be a champion for underrepresented folks when we have a seat at the table.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dalia (00:00):
The private sector has a really massive opportunity to
help with one of the world'smost pressing crises and given
that the crisis is so widespreadwith over 25 million displaced
individuals, we have to considerour responsibility as a nation
of immigrants to see how can wesupport this next wave of
immigration.
Whether migrants, refugees,asylees to ensure that they can
(00:21):
really integrate not only intoour society, but also into our
economy to build a better life.
Gaby (00:31):
[Music plays] Hola Hola, it's Gaby Acosta
Jenelle (00:33):
And me, Jenelle Acosta.
We're high school sweethearts ona journey to be better allies.
Gaby (00:39):
You're listening to The Way We Lead were we talk about
inclusive leadership allyshipand advocacy with folks across
identities, industries andexperiences.
Jenelle (00:49):
If you're new here, Welcome! You can follow us on
Facebook, Instagram, and Twitterusing the handle@thewaywelead.
Gaby (00:56):
We're glad you're here.
Let's jump in.
[Music Ends]
Dalia (01:03):
I'm Dalia Katan.
I'm a freelance strategist.
I help companies think throughhow to grow and innovate through
human-centered design lens.
I'm also a published author onthe future of work space, on
diversity inclusion and a hugeadvocate for how inclusion can
be used to not only improvebusiness outcomes but also
improve societal cohesion.
Jenelle (01:21):
So my thing is I'm always really interested in why
people got to where they aretoday, why people believe,
think, do the things that theydo.
Um, so I'm curious from your ownpersonal experience, why did you
want to get into D&I in thefirst place?
Dalia (01:37):
Mm, yeah, it's a great question and I think in a way I
was kind of like primed for thisfrom childhood.
Um, I come from a very diversefamily.
My mom, her side were refugeesin 1989 from Central Asia.
My Dad was a, um, also sort ofrefugee, but he came as an
immigrant to the U.S.
(01:57):
Uh, he was a Middle Eastern Jewand he came to chase the
American dream.
So there was always a ton oflanguage and food and culture
and music and tradition in myhouse that was like totally
different from one another.
So I'd always kind of beenfascinated by like what happens
when you put all those thingstogether, like when you coalesce
(02:18):
all that diversity within aperson or a family or a
community or workplace in thiscase.
Um, so yeah, I feel like it waskind of meant to be in a way,
but fast forward 20 years, um, Iam writing my undergraduate
thesis at Princeton and that'swhen I really started to explore
ethnic integration, diversityand inclusion.
(02:38):
I was actually focusing onIsrael, Palestine at the time.
And I remember being there forone of my research sprints,
interviewing Israeli Jews,Israeli Arabs, Palestinian
Arabs, and it was so, um,heartwarming and, and moving to
me that every side kind of sawme, inside I say with air
(02:59):
quotes, saw me as is one oftheirs and I'd never fully
appreciated that both my nameand my image as a Middle Eastern
Jew was fully Middle Eastern andfully Jewish.
And so there was that immediatetrust that was built, uh, with
everyone that I spoke to.
And I kind of realized at thatpoint like, okay, maybe I'm
(03:19):
meant to do some work in theinclusion space in the
integration space.
Um, maybe literally I'm meant todo bridge building in the Middle
East.
Like maybe that's kind of whatmy image and my, uh, family name
kind of gave me as a gift.
But fast forward, again, I wasat that time an innovation
consultant at Deloitte andRoblin and there was a social
(03:42):
impact competition in the NewYork office.
So a peer and I entered, wewanted to tackle several of the
UN's sustainable developmentgoals.
Um, I think we had chosen adecent work, economic growth, um
, economic equality or reducinginequalities.
And so we run won, we won ourregional competition.
We were semi-finalistsnationally.
Jenelle (04:02):
That's amazing.
Dalia (04:03):
I think.
Yeah.
And I think that for us is kindof the launch pad that we needed
to really, uh, take on thispassion project and then later
secure a$450,000 grant to buildout our various refugee
workplace integration programs.
Gaby (04:17):
Wow.
Dalia (04:18):
Yeah.
For anyone who's a corporateleader who's listening here,
like competitions work and it'sdefinitely a great way to engage
people outside of their day today and bring more innovation to
a company so long as there areresources to support that
continued work past thecompetition.
And that was kind of a uphillbattle for us.
Even with the competition there.
Jenelle (04:38):
This, this was a competition at Deloitte to, that
you participated in with acoworker that also worked at
Deloitte?
Dalia (04:48):
Yep.
Jenelle (04:48):
Wow.
Dalia (04:48):
We were both junior staff and kind of wanted to shake
things up a little bit and dosomething different from just
helping companies make moremoney.
Jenelle (04:56):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
And was this, so you, you didthis at Deloitte and was that
sort of the caveat for you towrite your book and everything
that came afterwards or, or wasthis sort of part of your
journey and there was morebefore that?
Dalia (05:09):
I think it was a big inflection point for us.
So it was, again, I mentioned,um, we'd raised a huge chunk of
money to conduct the researchwith Deloitte.
And so that was like reallygreat cause we had partnered up
with the Tent Partnership forRefugees.
Uh, we had, uh, engaged anetwork of different
corporations who were doingreally great work in this space
(05:29):
already.
And so to be able to have acorporations network and
financial support to go forthand, you know, build those
relationships, gather all thosebest practices, um, package them
up into a report that othercorporate leaders and employees
could use in their day to day.
I think that for us was a hugeturning point.
Jenelle (05:50):
Wow, that's great.
Gaby (05:51):
That's phenomenal.
And this is such important workthat we're going to dig into in
a minute, but I'm if you canpull us back and for those
listeners who aren't familiarwith the diversity and inclusion
space, can you break it down alittle bit for us in a way that
anybody can understand?
What is inclusion?
(06:13):
What is integration?
What do those mean and why is itimportant to understand?
Dalia (06:18):
I think that's a great question.
And my team and I did a lot ofback and forth trying to define
this because it is such a broadtopic.
Um, where we landed was wereally see workplace inclusion
as a two way process where bothemployers and employees are
jointly building a multiculturalenvironment that enables both
the organization and theindividuals that comprise it to
(06:41):
thrive.
So if you look at a compositionof an organization, they're
really like three mainconfigurations you might see
from a diversity lens, there'shomogenous or monolithic where
most people kind of fit asimilar profile.
There is a diverse orpluralistic where diversity, as
defined by a number of differentcharacteristics such as race,
(07:03):
gender, age, physical ability,orientation, life experiences,
personality, etc.
Um, all those differentcharacteristics are present in
numbers, but minorities tend tobe concentrated either within a
certain role such asadministrative or certain level
in the company such as entrylevel.
Um, and you don't really seemuch distribution across the
(07:24):
hierarchy of a company.
And then you have multiculturalwhere companies not only have
diversity but also value it andcelebrate it are willing to
utilize it and encourage it.
And that's when you see trueinclusion, uh, equal
opportunities, social cohesion.
And you see companies thatengage minorities in ways that
incorporate them without losingtheir distinctiveness and their
(07:45):
intersectional identities.
Um, and also without denyingthem participation fully across
the spectrum of what a companyoffers.
Gaby (07:52):
Hmm.
I, so that last one obviously issomething that we are definitely
striving for to help promote inthis podcast.
That's something that we reallycare about, not just in our work
environments but are also in ourcommunities.
So I'm wondering, based on allof your research and, and the
conclusions that you garneredfrom all of your reports, what
(08:13):
does it really take to, in youropinion, what does it take to
make this work in a workenvironment or in a community?
Dalia (08:23):
Sure.
Um, the, what does it take part,there's a, there's the theory
behind it and then there's the,what you can do in practice.
Um, and I think sharing thetheory behind it is really
interesting because it canapply, it can be applied so
broadly.
Um, and definitely there aremore tactical things that
employers and also non minorityemployees can use to create a
culture of inclusion.
(08:43):
But I have a feeling we'llcircle back to that later in the
interview.
Um, but as far as the, what ittakes in theory, uh, this was
actually the premise of myoriginal thesis at Princeton.
There is a psychology orsociology theory called
intergroup contact theory.
Um, it was first designed in Ithink the 50s by a psychologist
named Gordon Allport.
(09:05):
But it essentially states thatif you meet five conditions,
you're guaranteed to have each,quote unquote, against side view
the other in a more positivelight and eventually reduce
prejudice and improved socialcohesion.
So those five conditions arefeeling equal status in the
environment, having a sharedgoal, working together toward
(09:27):
that shared goal, uh, as opposedto competition, uh, having the
support of authorities andcoming together and then finally
having the potential to buildfriendship that extends outside
of that environment.
So if you think about that, uh,in a number of applications that
could be afterschool activities,that could be a sports leagues,
(09:47):
that could be the workplace.
Um, and I think applying it tothe workplace and really making
sure that work environments meetall those things, which in
essence they already do, right?
Everyone's equal at a company,if done right.
Um, even within hierarchicalstructures, uh, you have a
shared goal, whether it's themission of the company or it's
(10:07):
the success of the company andyou're working together toward
it.
To answer your question of whatit takes in theory to make a
work environment more inclusive,if you're able to design your
workplace culture and workplacepractices in a way that ensures
those five conditions are met, Ithink you're on the right track
for creating inclusion, forcreating cohesion in the
workplace.
Gaby (10:28):
So that's in theory, and what does that look like in
practice?
Dalia (10:33):
Yeah, so in practice, um, it really depends on who you're
talking to, right?
Um, there are leaders across thecompany in different roles and
different levels that each playa part.
So, um, I'm going to focus onsome of the practices that we
identified during our refugeeinclusion research.
But I think this is beneficialto all employees and applies to
(10:54):
all minorities more broadly.
Broadly speaking, I thinkexecutive leadership can be
visible champions of diversityand inclusion.
Uh, they can design inclusioninto their accountability
metrics and even designatechampions for different
diversity groups.
So for example, a champion forrefugee inclusion is one of the
things that we proposed.
Um, those champions can serve asadvocates for inclusion efforts.
(11:16):
They're responsible for deeplyunderstanding the needs of those
diversity groups, um, and theywork with HR and managers to
actually create initiatives andtrack impact.
Then you have the managers andthe HR leaders who can drive the
design and delivery of thosevarious initiatives where
relevant, um, and share bestpractices both within the
company and also to othercompanies.
(11:36):
I think that cross companylearning is super, super
important in the space ofdiversity and inclusion.
Um, and then finally, leadersshould 100% engage minority
employees and not just sharingtheir perspectives after
programs are designed butincluding them before programs
are designed and during theimplementation of those
programs.
Because there's a lot offeedback, um, and if you want to
be true to human-centereddesign, including the people
(11:58):
that you want to design forearly on in the design process
is so crucial to designing forthat audience.
Jenelle (12:04):
Two things that really stood out to me there was one,
uh, including other companies.
I think that that's so vitalbecause, with the employer that
I work for, um, we're veryunique in what we do in a lot of
ways.
And so we sort of feel likewe've become this bubble.
Um, and it's actually very hardfor us to get outside
perspective.
And so we are constantly in astate of trying to understand,
(12:28):
can outsiders help us be betterat what we do?
And I think that there's a lotof value in that.
So I think that that's great.
And then the third piece thatyou were mentioning was having
the population that you'retrying to get involved to
actually have them a part of theconversation of the policies
that you are creating.
Is that what you're saying?
Dalia (12:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Engaging them early.
Jenelle (12:50):
Right.
I think that that part getsmissed so often.
Um, cause I tend to work withleaders who are relatively new
to leadership and management andthe thought process tends to be
we need to make these decisionsas a leadership or a management
team rather than includingoutsiders in.
(13:11):
And I think that that reallystems from this fear that it's
not going to go well or you'regoing to get too much push back
or it's not going to go the waythat you want it to.
But in my experience, I'vealways found that when you
include the people that whatyou're building is for, you
actually get a better outcomeand you also get more buy-in
into what is going to be put inplace in the first place.
Dalia (13:31):
Totally.
I 100% agree with that.
Gaby (13:34):
That's actually something, so until very recently, Jenelle
and I worked at the same companyand a few years ago we launched
our first inaugural diversityinclusion committee.
And it was all built fromvarious leaders from across
different levels and identitiesin the entire organization.
And it was volunteer base, butit was a lot of dedication and
(13:58):
hard work to dig deep into thesetopics of how do we ensure that
we're building an inclusivecommunity.
One of the major things that wedid was bring in an outside
agency that was focusedprimarily on the analytics and
the data and, and sourcinginterviews from other folks
within the company to understandbetter what it was that we
(14:19):
needed and what it was that wewere lacking.
Um, and also what, where, wewere doing really well where I
would say there were severalspaces where we were doing
incredibly well, but the factthat we were listening to our
own employees I think was reallycritical and I don't think that
we would have been as successfulwith what happened this year was
(14:40):
we launched our employeeresource groups.
So those identity basedorganizations that help create a
supportive environment for folkswho are LGBTQ or, um, based on
their ethnicity or gender,whatever it might be.
And I don't think it would havegone as well if we hadn't had
(15:01):
that buy in from both thecommittee itself and also, later
on, from the entire populace,the employee community, because
they had been interviewed andthey said very loudly like, we
want this, we actually want tofollow through.
Dalia (15:15):
Congratulations, first of all.
I think what you created issuper impressive and also super
meaningful and important.
Um, so cool to hear about that.
But yeah, I totally agree.
I think there were a few reallygreat points in what you said
and there's the listeningportion, right?
Um, and it's not just to whatemployees are saying, but also
what they're not saying, whichis why I think it's great that
you guys brought in an externalteam to like actually come and
(15:37):
analyze, I'm not sure how muchethnographic research that they
did, but I'm sure they wentaround and spoke to people one
on one and kind of got their,um, confidential input that made
the program so successful.
So that's great.
But then there's also the pointabout, you know, you really do
need buy in from the entireemployee base and managers
alike.
(15:58):
And I think once you engage allemployees and not just the
minority populations that you'retalking to, you're creating a
culture where, you know, we'reall family.
We're all here to take care ofeach other.
We really feel like our voicematters, which, whether you're a
minority or not, I think is soimportant to creating a company
that, um, keeps their employeesfor longer than just one or two
(16:18):
years, which is the normalturnover in most industries.
Um, so yeah.
Gaby (16:24):
What does it take in terms of convincing an organization
that's been more established andhas already scaled and has a
large organization that is,quote unquote, successful in a
business case to convince themthat it's worth investing the
time and the energy andresources to developing
(16:45):
inclusion and diversityinitiatives?
Dalia (16:48):
Yeah.
And I think it's especiallydifficult for more mature
companies that already havediversity and inclusion
programs.
Um, who, you know, like yousaid, it's already working our
businesses doing great.
Like we've checked all the boxesto get them to see how the
definition of diversity andinclusion has changed over the
past five years, even past twoyears.
Um, is difficult.
I know this often follows tograssroots efforts, um, but
(17:13):
going around and getting a pollof, uh, the people that you want
to design new programs for Ithink is a great place to start.
Um, seeing how people feel, uh,the diversity and inclusion
programs that are existingtailored to them or don't.
There was a really interestingstudy that was recently
published, um, 25% of Deloitteemployees left because they
(17:34):
wanted to find more inclusiveworkplaces.
And for a company that puts somuch emphasis on diversity and
inclusion, to hear that is likepretty alarming.
Right?
So I think talking to employeesand getting feedback often and
you know, kind of getting a layof the land of how people feel
current programs do or don'tinclude them or, or give them
(17:58):
what they need, I think is agreat data point to give to
leadership at a company and say,Hey, well this actually isn't
working the way that it used to.
Like let's take the time tothink why and what can we do
differently?
Jenelle (18:10):
Right.
It's one thing to have maybe thegroups or the policies in place
for diversity inclusion, but ifyou're not checking in on how
they're going, then you don'tknow how to adapt and you don't
know how they're affecting youremployees.
That's really interesting.
Dalia (18:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gaby (18:26):
That's actually one of the questions I really struggled
with when we were launching ouremployee resource groups.
What are the, the KPIs, the keyperformance indicators or the
analytics, the data that weshould be looking at to
determine whether something issuccessful.
Because once it's launched, youknow, it can be easy to say,
(18:47):
okay, it's live, it's happening.
Look at all the activities goingon.
We are so inclusive, but how dowe measure success when it comes
to a diversity inclusioninitiative?
Dalia (18:58):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And KPI's are changing all thetime in the D&I space.
Um, for me it always comes backto the basic line of a simple
poll of employees asking them,do you feel like you can bring
your whole self to work?
And as that question changes andas the responses to that change
over time, I think that's whenyou know that the impact that
(19:20):
diversity inclusion programsseek to have are getting less
and less efficient over time.
So I always come back to thatbecause I think there's so many
ways to, to kind of measureimpact and, and track that, uh,
in ways that are serving thebusiness.
But I think just going back tois it serving the people in the
business is the best way to doit.
Gaby (19:45):
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Jenelle (20:21):
One of the areas that you've focused on is, uh,
refugees in the workplace.
Um, so as, as a leader at myorganization, uh, I've always
been very thoughtful about themakeup of my team.
We used to have a lot morecontrol over the people that we
could hire on our team.
It's changed a little bit, butwhen I had that control, I was
(20:43):
always paying pretty closeattention to what was the makeup
of my team, was my team diverse,uh, not only in race and sexual
orientation and ethnicity, ingender.
Um, but refugee was neversomething that I would consider
or keep in mind when I waslooking at that.
So what, what kinds oforganizations or industries does
(21:04):
refugee status specificallyimpact and how?
Dalia (21:08):
Yeah, and I, I want to point out that refugee status is
a legal status and no more,right at the end of the day,
they're still human beings withincredible backgrounds and um,
skills that are a value to alltypes of organizations.
So I would say this impactsevery organization and every
industry because refugees comefrom all sorts of professional
(21:28):
backgrounds, whether business,medicine, manufacturing,
science, technology, you nameit.
So if companies are constantlyseeking top talent, super
practically the refugeepopulation offers a really great
pool of highly skilled, highlymotivated, um, super loyal and
super hardworking talent to pullfrom.
(21:48):
And I think aside from thebusiness need alone, there's
also the question ofresponsibility.
And you know, I think theprivate sector has a really
massive opportunity to help withone of the world's most pressing
crises.
And given that the crisis is sowidespread with over 25 million
displaced individuals, um, Ithink this is a statistic from
(22:09):
even last year, so it's probablyeven greater this year.
We have to consider ourresponsibility as a nation of
immigrants to see how can wesupport this next wave of
immigration.
Whether migrants, refugees,asylees, um, to ensure that they
can really integrate not onlyinto our society, but also into
our economy to build a betterlife.
And, uh, someone I reallyadmire, the CEO of Chobani Hamdi
(22:32):
Ulukaya, um, he's first of all,just an amazing human being and
I'm super lucky I got to workwith his team, uh, during the
refugee project that we did, buthe's trying to change the
narrative around what it meansto be a business in 2019, he was
recently quoted in an interviewsaying something along the lines
of like, uh, businesses don'texist only to make a profit for
(22:53):
shareholders.
We have responsibilities to ourcommunities, uh, toward our
employees and their families.
And we have a responsibility asbusinesses to help grow humanity
and community.
So I think the narrative isreally shifting, um, on, you
know, why businesses should careabout this.
And I think it really comes downto the fact that the role of
businesses in society ischanging and we need to think
(23:17):
more collectively and less, uh,from personal gain or financial
gain.
Jenelle (23:21):
Yeah, I think that that's so important because in
business world you tend to thinkof your stakeholders as your
shareholders and the profit thatyou're making and your
stakeholders are much more thanthat to make sure that you're
building a healthy, uh, company.
Whether that's just from anemployee standpoint, but also
from a financial standpoint.
A follow up question is, isthere something inherently about
(23:45):
the type of support, uh, inorder to do, create a cohesion,
cohesive environment forrefugees versus other
marginalized groups?
Dalia (23:55):
Uh, yes and no.
So, um, something that we foundthrough our research was that,
um, across the almost a hundredrefugees and employees and
employers that we spoke to,there was both agreement that
many of the resources neededalready exist, but rather it's
an access and understandingissue.
Um, which then leads to the flipside of, okay, so then we need
(24:17):
to create more resources toimprove understanding and
access.
So that might be, um, addinglanguage programs.
Maybe it's a buddy that speaksyour language that works in
your, in your team or somewherein the company.
Um, maybe it's literally hiringtranslators, like some of the
companies that we intervieweddid, um, when you realize that
your employees have the skillsthat you need and it's only
(24:37):
language barrier that like holdsthem back from reaching that
full potential and giving yourcompany the full benefit of
diversity, it's a pretty simpleinvestment to make.
Right?
Um, and I think that oncebusinesses see that inclusion
and cohesion both with refugeesand other minority populations
are an opportunity to drivepositive business outcomes, then
they start to realize thatinvesting in inclusion is a very
(25:02):
rewarding business investment.
Um, and a huge competitiveadvantage.
So I mentioned language might beone of them.
I think also understanding theflexibility needs of some of
these refugee populations issuper important.
Um, they may have family abroadthat they need to speak to at
certain times of day or familyat home that they need to take
care of.
And I think, um, more and more,you know, there's conversations
(25:24):
around flexibility andpredictability in companies, but
when you really take a step backto listen to what your employees
need, whether refugees or not,um, and give them the space to
be humans as well as workers, Ithink that's when you really get
to unlock the benefits ofdiversity in the workplace.
Jenelle (25:40):
I love that.
Be humans as well as workers.
Very true.
Gaby (25:43):
This is something that really touched my life and my
family's life directly becausemy, my parents, my, my dad in
particular and his side of thefamily were all refugees and
asylum seekers during the civilwar in El Salvador, which ended
in the mid nineties and they allended up in 13 different
countries.
15 brothers and sisters.
Dalia (26:04):
Wow, dang!
Gaby (26:04):
Yeah, it's pretty incredible.
And in particular, you know,they, they ended up here in the
United States and Canada and um,Costa Rica and Venezuela, like
really anywhere that would givethem refugee status.
But one of the hardest thingsonce you're displaced and then
(26:24):
in a diaspora community isfinding work in the line that
you've actually studied.
And also feeling like you belongand I think this research is
critical to ensuring that we,especially today, right?
There's going to be a huge needthere already is for including
(26:45):
and creating a sense ofbelonging and cohesion not only
in our workplaces but also inour everyday lives.
Especially with the crisis atthe border going on right now.
I think this is a topic thatpeople are really going to want
to listen to.
It, It's going to just continueto be an issue because we know
(27:05):
that with climate change therewill be further exacerbation of
the amount of folks who have toleave their home in search for
resources, natural resources andaccess to water, access to food
and this is going to be an issuethat will continue to come back
over and over again.
Dalia (27:25):
I think that emphasizes the urgency of really figuring
out how to engage the privatesector in building solutions
around this now because as youalluded to, there will be new
types of refugees emerging inour country and in the world
over the next 50 years.
And if we can't figure out a wayto make it work now, we won't be
(27:47):
able to handle it when it'sexacerbated.
Jenelle (27:50):
So I work, like I said before with a lot of brand new
managers, um, and I find newmanagers quite fun because
they're really eager and theywant to learn and they wanted to
really well.
Um, but there's also a lot offear and being a new manager of,
you know, are, am I gonna dowell?
Are People gonna like me?
(28:11):
Um, and those are some of myfavorite people to work with
cause I really like to kind ofbreak down what that fear is and
getting them to be in a placewhere they are able to be a
little bit more vulnerable.
Um, but it can be really scaryin that position to try to
figure out how, not just to be agood manager and a good leader,
but how to build that inclusiveenvironment.
(28:33):
So if you were to speak to abrand new manager, are there
specific things that you believethey can do to foster inclusion
or are there specific resourcesthat you would point them to?
Dalia (28:45):
Great question.
Um, I would say first, and thisis something I would say to
anyone, uh, look around you lookside to side.
How many people in your team areon your level look and sound
like you?
And I think answering thatquestion honestly is a great
first step.
Um, and then looking up anddown.
So how many minorities are thereentering your company in entry
(29:06):
level positions as well asprogressing into positions of
leadership?
Always start by looking aroundyou.
Second, we mentioned this alittle bit before, but making
sure that there's awareness,understanding and access to
various company resources,whether it's programs,
initiatives, services, um, moremature companies have a lot of
diversity and inclusionresources available.
(29:27):
But whether it's onboarding,learning and development,
mentorship, et Cetera, somegroups need a little bit extra
help to learn about andunderstand and access these
programs.
So figure out where there mightbe a gap between what's offered
and what's used and figure outif it's disinterest or if it's
truly just not being aware ofit.
(29:48):
Third, I'd say really listen,and this is something that's
come up a few times in thisconversation, right?
It's not just when employees aresaying, but also what they're
not saying or might be great tosay and see how you can
alleviate some of the externalcircumstances that might get in
the way of them doing their bestwork, whether it's language or
family responsibilities orsomething else.
But the role of employers arechanging and it's increasingly
(30:10):
important for employers to seehow they might enable the
success of the entire acumen.
And not just the worker, as wealready said.
And I'd say finally, um, open upa platform for storytelling,
whether it's empowering yourteam members to share their
journeys or bringing in externaldiversity and inclusion experts
to educate or facilitate funworkshops.
(30:30):
Um, create a safe space forauthentic expression in a way
that's not just to educate, butalso to build empathy and make
people feel closer.
All of these things are thingsthat non-managerial employees
can do as well.
I think inclusion is acollective effort and engaging
the entire team in the workplace, uh, to create inclusion makes
(30:52):
them also feel included.
And it's important to not onlyprepare the minority employees
to succeed and do well, but alsomake sure that the non minority
populations who can be some ofthe most influential people in
creating inclusion at work feellike they have the support, the
tools, the voice that they needto be a part of the company's
decisions.
And then as far as resources,um, if new managers are looking
(31:16):
for resources to draw upon asthey design their teams or their
workplaces to better utilize andnurture the talents of
minorities, I'm also happy to bea resource to anyone, of course,
they can feel free to reach outto me on my website.
It's daliakatan.com, they canalso check out forward slash
inclusion and let me know whatquestions you have.
I'm happy to point you in theright direction.
(31:36):
You can also check out some ofthe reports that I coauthored,
um, including a report on how toinclude refugees in the
workplace.
Um, and again, while I'vewritten with refugees at heart,
these are really principles thatcan benefit any employee.
Um, also a report on how leadersand teams can improve their
performance in an increasinglyfast changing world.
Other resources for refugeerelated issues.
(31:57):
I couldn't recommend enough, TheTent Partnership for Refugees.
They put out some reallyincredible reports on the
intersection of refugees andinclusion and for resources on
team dynamics and the future ofwork.
Check out The Center For TheEdge.
It's an innovation think tankthat I worked for and they've
produced some really coolcontent on productive friction
(32:17):
team, dynamics, the future ofwork, et Cetera.
Jenelle (32:20):
I love the statement of, um, not, it's not just
managers who can help fosterthis relationship, right?
It's everybody.
Um, the one thing that I throwback is I'm always trying to get
my managers to think about thismore because they can also be
the ones to halt it, haltprogression, um, when they're
not seeing the need.
(32:40):
And I think the biggest thingthat I'm constantly trying to
make my managers and the peoplethat I have mentored is to make
them aware of what their teammakeup looks like.
Just the sentence of look toyour left, look to your right,
look up, look down who's aroundyou, and what's needed is really
important.
And I think it's, it's thispractice of trying to get
(33:01):
managers and leaders to lookoutside of themselves, um, and
not just what is the goal athand, but how do you do that
with your team and is your teamsupported as a human being in
order to make that happen?
Because if they're not supportedas a human being first, then
you're never gonna really reachthe true potential of whatever
(33:22):
that goal could be.
So I love all of that.
That's really tangible stuffthat I think people can use.
Gaby (33:28):
You also talked about the importance of storytelling,
which to be honest, that'sprobably my favorite thing that
you've said today, surprise,being coming from a journalism
background and also from amarketing communications
background, there's such a powerin oral histories and telling
your story and passing thatforward and being able to feel
(33:50):
visible by telling your story.
And that this is really a bigpart of why we are doing this
podcast is helping people have aplatform where they can share
their stories, share theirresources, their expertise, and
support others in trying to bemore visible.
Um, and using our poweressentially to lift other people
up.
(34:10):
So this is just so critical, notjust as an employee, as a peer,
but as, as a human being.
I think being able to not onlytell your own story and be
vulnerable and honest about yourexperience and being able to
listen, truly, deeply listen toother people's stories and
authentically engaging inempathy and understanding and
(34:34):
growing from there.
So something that we like to askevery single interviewee is,
what allyship means to you andhow can we be allies to you?
Dalia (34:46):
I think the first thing is always speaking up.
So being a champion or advocatefor someone who's constantly
overlooked for a leadership rolethat they might be qualified for
, um, or pointing out homogenyto a manager, uh, and offering
help with recruiting I think isalways a great place to start.
Stepping aside, and sometimesthat means shutting up if I can
(35:07):
curse on a podcast.
Um, recognizing when you are notmaking room for others to share
their opinions.
Um, giving up a part of yourprivilege to lift others up, um,
and sometimes making yourself alittle bit uncomfortable so that
those who might not have thesame opportunity can succeed in
the workplace.
Um, I would say what it's not isit's not mentorship.
(35:30):
Um, it's not just, you know,giving people advice or saying,
Hey, I'm here for you if youneed it.
It's also a champion.
It's going above and beyondgiving advice and really
leveraging your network andbeing invested in their success.
Um, putting their interests andthe group interests over
sometimes your own personalinterests.
Gaby (35:49):
That's a wonderful definition of allyship.
I love it.
Jenelle (35:53):
Last, before we let you go, is there anything that
you're up to right now that youwant to let our audience know
about?
Dalia (36:00):
Thanks for asking.
Um, a lot of fun stuff.
I've been thinking a lot moreabout the future of work.
I'm actually coauthoring a bookcalled Part-Time Wild, which is
a guide to help employersredefine their relationship with
employees and support theirwhole, or human selves as we've
spoken about today.
Um, and also helping employeesnavigate conversations around
(36:22):
part time work.
And our hypothesis there reallyis that the future work is not
full time jobs and it's notnecessarily freelance either.
I think it's this new, uh, it'sactually not completely new, but
we're trying to redefine whatpart-time means and kind of shed
some of the stigma behind it,um, and create this part time
lifestyle that's actuallyliberating to employees while
(36:44):
also maximizing the benefit thatemployers can get from their
employees.
So if any of you listeners havea great story you want to share
about your own part timejourneys, um, please feel free
to reach out to me atDaliakatan.com, um, I've also
been coaching others ondesigning their lives around
curiosity and creativity, um,and helping them create space
for creative sabbaticals.
(37:05):
Work's been keeping you prettybusy, when I'm not doing
diversity and inclusion stuff.
I'm usually helping startups andincorporations redesign their
growth and innovationstrategies.
So that's been taking up a lotof my bandwidth, I'd say.
Gaby (37:19):
Congratulations.
That's amazing.
Sounds like you've got a lot ofirons in the fire.
It's really cool to hear thatyou have such a passion for
diversity, inclusion and hearingyour experience with research
and sharing your personalperspective as well with us.
Really can't thank you enoughfor being here and for sharing
your story with us and sharingsome of your resources with our
(37:39):
community.
Really, thank you so much forbeing with us.
Dalia (37:42):
Oh, this is really fun.
Thank you ladies for making thisspace for me to share all this
stuff.
You both are such amazing co-hosts.
I'm excited to share this.
Again, I told you two thisbefore, but like because I've
been writing reports, it's soinaccessible.
Like I wouldn't even sit andread a hundred page report
someone wrote like even if itwas exactly what I was
interested in.
So it's important what you galsare doing to make this work more
(38:05):
accessible, and to like share, Ithink things that people may or
may not read otherwise in a waythat's easy to digest and easy
to kind of like listen to you onthe road while you're going to
work.
So this is super important work.
Gaby (38:20):
That's the dream.
Jenelle (38:21):
Yeah, that is the dream.
Gaby (38:21):
Trying to make it more accessible.
Here we go.
Let's see how it works.
Well, congrats on the work thatyou have coming.
It sounds like you, you've gotthis amazing book and I'm going
to read it the second it comesout.
Yeah.
Dalia (38:33):
Thank you, I'll send you guys a copy.
Gaby (38:35):
Yes, please do.
Please do.
Jenelle (38:38):
[Beep Beep] When when she finished with allyship is
not mentorship.
I was like, oh no, I talkedabout being a mentor.
I s this bad?
Dalia (38:44):
No, I like that because what she's saying is it's, it
goes beyond mentorship.
Right?
It's not just mentorship.
Jenelle (38:52):
Yeah.
Gaby (38:52):
Mentorship is one element that can help, but it's about
making sure that you're being achampion also, which I think you
do really well.
That's something that I'venoticed in your work.
You're not just a mentor topeople giving them advice and
guidance.
You're there for them in theroom when they're not there to
promote them and celebrate themand, and put them in positions
(39:15):
where they can learn themselves.
Right.
Like that to me is championingsomebody versus just mentoring
somebody.
Jenelle (39:23):
Yeah.
What is a champion is so hard todefine in some way because it
can be really specific to theperson or the instance, right?
Like what, what somebody needsas a champion really depends
upon the circumstances.
And so I like to think that I'ma champion, but I get nervous
(39:43):
that I need to be doing more orthat I'm not doing enough.
And so I don't know, it's just agood reminder for me that
talking about this stuff is onething, but making sure that I'm
actionable in that.
So for example, like I had tobring up to one of our SVPs a
(40:03):
few months ago, the fact thatbecause I'm not allowed to pick
who's on my team anymore, thatmeans that I've lost the
opportunity to make sure that myteam is diverse.
Um, and so I had to bring thatup and make sure that they were
aware of it so they can add thatin.
And so I want to make sure thatthat is championship, if that
(40:24):
makes sense.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Yeah, that's advocacy to me that seems like something
that if you were passivelytrying to provide the optics of
being an inclusive leader,that's not something that you
would do.
You're actually asking forsomething, but you know what,
maybe this'll help us both.
Let's look for somebody who cantalk about what it looks like to
be a champion in the roombecause I think that's a cool
(40:47):
topic and it's something thatpeople ask all the time.
I have had several folks ask mewhat it looks like to be a
champion in a room and I havebeen able to provide my own
opinion, my own thoughts on it.
But definitely not based on anyexpertise in any way.
So, Yeah.
Let's look for somebody.
Jenelle (41:05):
I think her topics right, the, the overarching of
what she's talking about is sogreat and so important.
Um, I loved her, like what arethe five pieces that create a
community where people feel likethey are included in there, they
want to be there and how therewere sort of these five things
to think about.
I love that as a starting point,but then it's not just the
(41:28):
policies that you're doing, it'swhat you're doing in the room.
So yeah, I think that that wouldbe really interesting to take
this from sort of a larger topicto something a little bit more
focused.
Gaby (41:38):
Yeah, I agree.
I think it would be really cool.
This is a nice place to start.
This is a first conversation,right?
Like this is our first moreformal starting from the macro
understanding
Jenelle (41:48):
[Singing] Started from the bottom now we're here.
Gaby (41:50):
Starting from the top here.
Theoretical.
Jenelle (41:52):
Yeah, sure.
Dalia (41:52):
Let's, let's make our way down to the more practical and
try to dig into the niche topicsthat we just touched on today.
Gaby (42:01):
Thank you so much for joining us for this fabulous
interview with the incredibleand brilliant Dalia Katan.
Are you somebody who has a seatat the table and actively
champions for people, especiallyfor minorities or
underrepresented folks in yourorganization, in your company or
in your community?
Or are you somebody who haspersonally experienced having a
(42:22):
champion in that room advocatingfor you?
We want to hear from you.
What does that look like inpractice?
While you're leaving your voicememo on our website, make sure
to subscribe to our newsletterfor some additional behind the
scenes material.
It comes out every other weekalternating with our episodes.
If you want access to bonusmaterials like funny bloopers
(42:42):
and also some vulnerablereflections on what it looks
like and feels like to try tobecome better allies, make sure
to sign up to be a monthlypatron by clicking on our
patreon button on the top rightof the websites.
This episode was produced by me,Gaby Acosta, and co- hosted by
my boo, Jenelle Acosta.
Our music was written andproduced by the talented Emily
(43:04):
Henry.
Here's Jenelle singing thisweek's list of seed fund
sponsors.
Jenelle (43:14):
David Leme, I like you a lot.
I also like David Winship.
Dawn Andreas, you are my friend.
I also like[inaudible]Dutcher-Stoy family, hi Amelia!
Emily Henry, you wrote our themesong.
Emily Jorgensen, you are great.
Gaby (43:30):
Hashtag!
Jenelle (43:31):
30 for 30 baby, yeah.
[Dog Barks] Every time.
The private sector has a really massive opportunity to
help with one of the world'smost pressing crises and given
that the crisis is so widespreadwith over 25 million displaced
individuals, we have to considerour responsibility as a nation
of immigrants to see how can wesupport this next wave of
immigration.
Whether migrants, refugees,asylees to ensure that they can
(00:21):
really integrate not only intoour society, but also into our
economy to build a better life.
Gaby (00:31):
[Music plays] Hola Hola, it's Gaby Acosta
Jenelle (00:33):
And me, Jenelle Acosta.
We're high school sweethearts ona journey to be better allies.
Gaby (00:39):
You're listening to The Way We Lead were we talk about
inclusive leadership allyshipand advocacy with folks across
identities, industries andexperiences.
Jenelle (00:49):
If you're new here, Welcome! You can follow us on
Facebook, Instagram, and Twitterusing the handle@thewaywelead.
Gaby (00:56):
We're glad you're here.
Let's jump in.
[Music Ends]
Dalia (01:03):
I'm Dalia Katan.
I'm a freelance strategist.
I help companies think throughhow to grow and innovate through
human-centered design lens.
I'm also a published author onthe future of work space, on
diversity inclusion and a hugeadvocate for how inclusion can
be used to not only improvebusiness outcomes but also
improve societal cohesion.
Jenelle (01:21):
So my thing is I'm always really interested in why
people got to where they aretoday, why people believe,
think, do the things that theydo.
Um, so I'm curious from your ownpersonal experience, why did you
want to get into D&I in thefirst place?
Dalia (01:37):
Mm, yeah, it's a great question and I think in a way I
was kind of like primed for thisfrom childhood.
Um, I come from a very diversefamily.
My mom, her side were refugeesin 1989 from Central Asia.
My Dad was a, um, also sort ofrefugee, but he came as an
immigrant to the U.S.
(01:57):
Uh, he was a Middle Eastern Jewand he came to chase the
American dream.
So there was always a ton oflanguage and food and culture
and music and tradition in myhouse that was like totally
different from one another.
So I'd always kind of beenfascinated by like what happens
when you put all those thingstogether, like when you coalesce
(02:18):
all that diversity within aperson or a family or a
community or workplace in thiscase.
Um, so yeah, I feel like it waskind of meant to be in a way,
but fast forward 20 years, um, Iam writing my undergraduate
thesis at Princeton and that'swhen I really started to explore
ethnic integration, diversityand inclusion.
(02:38):
I was actually focusing onIsrael, Palestine at the time.
And I remember being there forone of my research sprints,
interviewing Israeli Jews,Israeli Arabs, Palestinian
Arabs, and it was so, um,heartwarming and, and moving to
me that every side kind of sawme, inside I say with air
(02:59):
quotes, saw me as is one oftheirs and I'd never fully
appreciated that both my nameand my image as a Middle Eastern
Jew was fully Middle Eastern andfully Jewish.
And so there was that immediatetrust that was built, uh, with
everyone that I spoke to.
And I kind of realized at thatpoint like, okay, maybe I'm
(03:19):
meant to do some work in theinclusion space in the
integration space.
Um, maybe literally I'm meant todo bridge building in the Middle
East.
Like maybe that's kind of whatmy image and my, uh, family name
kind of gave me as a gift.
But fast forward, again, I wasat that time an innovation
consultant at Deloitte andRoblin and there was a social
(03:42):
impact competition in the NewYork office.
So a peer and I entered, wewanted to tackle several of the
UN's sustainable developmentgoals.
Um, I think we had chosen adecent work, economic growth, um
, economic equality or reducinginequalities.
And so we run won, we won ourregional competition.
We were semi-finalistsnationally.
Jenelle (04:02):
That's amazing.
Dalia (04:03):
I think.
Yeah.
And I think that for us is kindof the launch pad that we needed
to really, uh, take on thispassion project and then later
secure a$450,000 grant to buildout our various refugee
workplace integration programs.
Gaby (04:17):
Wow.
Dalia (04:18):
Yeah.
For anyone who's a corporateleader who's listening here,
like competitions work and it'sdefinitely a great way to engage
people outside of their day today and bring more innovation to
a company so long as there areresources to support that
continued work past thecompetition.
And that was kind of a uphillbattle for us.
Even with the competition there.
Jenelle (04:38):
This, this was a competition at Deloitte to, that
you participated in with acoworker that also worked at
Deloitte?
Dalia (04:48):
Yep.
Jenelle (04:48):
Wow.
Dalia (04:48):
We were both junior staff and kind of wanted to shake
things up a little bit and dosomething different from just
helping companies make moremoney.
Jenelle (04:56):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
And was this, so you, you didthis at Deloitte and was that
sort of the caveat for you towrite your book and everything
that came afterwards or, or wasthis sort of part of your
journey and there was morebefore that?
Dalia (05:09):
I think it was a big inflection point for us.
So it was, again, I mentioned,um, we'd raised a huge chunk of
money to conduct the researchwith Deloitte.
And so that was like reallygreat cause we had partnered up
with the Tent Partnership forRefugees.
Uh, we had, uh, engaged anetwork of different
corporations who were doingreally great work in this space
(05:29):
already.
And so to be able to have acorporations network and
financial support to go forthand, you know, build those
relationships, gather all thosebest practices, um, package them
up into a report that othercorporate leaders and employees
could use in their day to day.
I think that for us was a hugeturning point.
Jenelle (05:50):
Wow, that's great.
Gaby (05:51):
That's phenomenal.
And this is such important workthat we're going to dig into in
a minute, but I'm if you canpull us back and for those
listeners who aren't familiarwith the diversity and inclusion
space, can you break it down alittle bit for us in a way that
anybody can understand?
What is inclusion?
(06:13):
What is integration?
What do those mean and why is itimportant to understand?
Dalia (06:18):
I think that's a great question.
And my team and I did a lot ofback and forth trying to define
this because it is such a broadtopic.
Um, where we landed was wereally see workplace inclusion
as a two way process where bothemployers and employees are
jointly building a multiculturalenvironment that enables both
the organization and theindividuals that comprise it to
(06:41):
thrive.
So if you look at a compositionof an organization, they're
really like three mainconfigurations you might see
from a diversity lens, there'shomogenous or monolithic where
most people kind of fit asimilar profile.
There is a diverse orpluralistic where diversity, as
defined by a number of differentcharacteristics such as race,
(07:03):
gender, age, physical ability,orientation, life experiences,
personality, etc.
Um, all those differentcharacteristics are present in
numbers, but minorities tend tobe concentrated either within a
certain role such asadministrative or certain level
in the company such as entrylevel.
Um, and you don't really seemuch distribution across the
(07:24):
hierarchy of a company.
And then you have multiculturalwhere companies not only have
diversity but also value it andcelebrate it are willing to
utilize it and encourage it.
And that's when you see trueinclusion, uh, equal
opportunities, social cohesion.
And you see companies thatengage minorities in ways that
incorporate them without losingtheir distinctiveness and their
(07:45):
intersectional identities.
Um, and also without denyingthem participation fully across
the spectrum of what a companyoffers.
Gaby (07:52):
Hmm.
I, so that last one obviously issomething that we are definitely
striving for to help promote inthis podcast.
That's something that we reallycare about, not just in our work
environments but are also in ourcommunities.
So I'm wondering, based on allof your research and, and the
conclusions that you garneredfrom all of your reports, what
(08:13):
does it really take to, in youropinion, what does it take to
make this work in a workenvironment or in a community?
Dalia (08:23):
Sure.
Um, the, what does it take part,there's a, there's the theory
behind it and then there's the,what you can do in practice.
Um, and I think sharing thetheory behind it is really
interesting because it canapply, it can be applied so
broadly.
Um, and definitely there aremore tactical things that
employers and also non minorityemployees can use to create a
culture of inclusion.
(08:43):
But I have a feeling we'llcircle back to that later in the
interview.
Um, but as far as the, what ittakes in theory, uh, this was
actually the premise of myoriginal thesis at Princeton.
There is a psychology orsociology theory called
intergroup contact theory.
Um, it was first designed in Ithink the 50s by a psychologist
named Gordon Allport.
(09:05):
But it essentially states thatif you meet five conditions,
you're guaranteed to have each,quote unquote, against side view
the other in a more positivelight and eventually reduce
prejudice and improved socialcohesion.
So those five conditions arefeeling equal status in the
environment, having a sharedgoal, working together toward
(09:27):
that shared goal, uh, as opposedto competition, uh, having the
support of authorities andcoming together and then finally
having the potential to buildfriendship that extends outside
of that environment.
So if you think about that, uh,in a number of applications that
could be afterschool activities,that could be a sports leagues,
(09:47):
that could be the workplace.
Um, and I think applying it tothe workplace and really making
sure that work environments meetall those things, which in
essence they already do, right?
Everyone's equal at a company,if done right.
Um, even within hierarchicalstructures, uh, you have a
shared goal, whether it's themission of the company or it's
(10:07):
the success of the company andyou're working together toward
it.
To answer your question of whatit takes in theory to make a
work environment more inclusive,if you're able to design your
workplace culture and workplacepractices in a way that ensures
those five conditions are met, Ithink you're on the right track
for creating inclusion, forcreating cohesion in the
workplace.
Gaby (10:28):
So that's in theory, and what does that look like in
practice?
Dalia (10:33):
Yeah, so in practice, um, it really depends on who you're
talking to, right?
Um, there are leaders across thecompany in different roles and
different levels that each playa part.
So, um, I'm going to focus onsome of the practices that we
identified during our refugeeinclusion research.
But I think this is beneficialto all employees and applies to
(10:54):
all minorities more broadly.
Broadly speaking, I thinkexecutive leadership can be
visible champions of diversityand inclusion.
Uh, they can design inclusioninto their accountability
metrics and even designatechampions for different
diversity groups.
So for example, a champion forrefugee inclusion is one of the
things that we proposed.
Um, those champions can serve asadvocates for inclusion efforts.
(11:16):
They're responsible for deeplyunderstanding the needs of those
diversity groups, um, and theywork with HR and managers to
actually create initiatives andtrack impact.
Then you have the managers andthe HR leaders who can drive the
design and delivery of thosevarious initiatives where
relevant, um, and share bestpractices both within the
company and also to othercompanies.
(11:36):
I think that cross companylearning is super, super
important in the space ofdiversity and inclusion.
Um, and then finally, leadersshould 100% engage minority
employees and not just sharingtheir perspectives after
programs are designed butincluding them before programs
are designed and during theimplementation of those
programs.
Because there's a lot offeedback, um, and if you want to
be true to human-centereddesign, including the people
(11:58):
that you want to design forearly on in the design process
is so crucial to designing forthat audience.
Jenelle (12:04):
Two things that really stood out to me there was one,
uh, including other companies.
I think that that's so vitalbecause, with the employer that
I work for, um, we're veryunique in what we do in a lot of
ways.
And so we sort of feel likewe've become this bubble.
Um, and it's actually very hardfor us to get outside
perspective.
And so we are constantly in astate of trying to understand,
(12:28):
can outsiders help us be betterat what we do?
And I think that there's a lotof value in that.
So I think that that's great.
And then the third piece thatyou were mentioning was having
the population that you'retrying to get involved to
actually have them a part of theconversation of the policies
that you are creating.
Is that what you're saying?
Dalia (12:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Engaging them early.
Jenelle (12:50):
Right.
I think that that part getsmissed so often.
Um, cause I tend to work withleaders who are relatively new
to leadership and management andthe thought process tends to be
we need to make these decisionsas a leadership or a management
team rather than includingoutsiders in.
(13:11):
And I think that that reallystems from this fear that it's
not going to go well or you'regoing to get too much push back
or it's not going to go the waythat you want it to.
But in my experience, I'vealways found that when you
include the people that whatyou're building is for, you
actually get a better outcomeand you also get more buy-in
into what is going to be put inplace in the first place.
Dalia (13:31):
Totally.
I 100% agree with that.
Gaby (13:34):
That's actually something, so until very recently, Jenelle
and I worked at the same companyand a few years ago we launched
our first inaugural diversityinclusion committee.
And it was all built fromvarious leaders from across
different levels and identitiesin the entire organization.
And it was volunteer base, butit was a lot of dedication and
(13:58):
hard work to dig deep into thesetopics of how do we ensure that
we're building an inclusivecommunity.
One of the major things that wedid was bring in an outside
agency that was focusedprimarily on the analytics and
the data and, and sourcinginterviews from other folks
within the company to understandbetter what it was that we
(14:19):
needed and what it was that wewere lacking.
Um, and also what, where, wewere doing really well where I
would say there were severalspaces where we were doing
incredibly well, but the factthat we were listening to our
own employees I think was reallycritical and I don't think that
we would have been as successfulwith what happened this year was
(14:40):
we launched our employeeresource groups.
So those identity basedorganizations that help create a
supportive environment for folkswho are LGBTQ or, um, based on
their ethnicity or gender,whatever it might be.
And I don't think it would havegone as well if we hadn't had
(15:01):
that buy in from both thecommittee itself and also, later
on, from the entire populace,the employee community, because
they had been interviewed andthey said very loudly like, we
want this, we actually want tofollow through.
Dalia (15:15):
Congratulations, first of all.
I think what you created issuper impressive and also super
meaningful and important.
Um, so cool to hear about that.
But yeah, I totally agree.
I think there were a few reallygreat points in what you said
and there's the listeningportion, right?
Um, and it's not just to whatemployees are saying, but also
what they're not saying, whichis why I think it's great that
you guys brought in an externalteam to like actually come and
(15:37):
analyze, I'm not sure how muchethnographic research that they
did, but I'm sure they wentaround and spoke to people one
on one and kind of got their,um, confidential input that made
the program so successful.
So that's great.
But then there's also the pointabout, you know, you really do
need buy in from the entireemployee base and managers
alike.
(15:58):
And I think once you engage allemployees and not just the
minority populations that you'retalking to, you're creating a
culture where, you know, we'reall family.
We're all here to take care ofeach other.
We really feel like our voicematters, which, whether you're a
minority or not, I think is soimportant to creating a company
that, um, keeps their employeesfor longer than just one or two
(16:18):
years, which is the normalturnover in most industries.
Um, so yeah.
Gaby (16:24):
What does it take in terms of convincing an organization
that's been more established andhas already scaled and has a
large organization that is,quote unquote, successful in a
business case to convince themthat it's worth investing the
time and the energy andresources to developing
(16:45):
inclusion and diversityinitiatives?
Dalia (16:48):
Yeah.
And I think it's especiallydifficult for more mature
companies that already havediversity and inclusion
programs.
Um, who, you know, like yousaid, it's already working our
businesses doing great.
Like we've checked all the boxesto get them to see how the
definition of diversity andinclusion has changed over the
past five years, even past twoyears.
Um, is difficult.
I know this often follows tograssroots efforts, um, but
(17:13):
going around and getting a pollof, uh, the people that you want
to design new programs for Ithink is a great place to start.
Um, seeing how people feel, uh,the diversity and inclusion
programs that are existingtailored to them or don't.
There was a really interestingstudy that was recently
published, um, 25% of Deloitteemployees left because they
(17:34):
wanted to find more inclusiveworkplaces.
And for a company that puts somuch emphasis on diversity and
inclusion, to hear that is likepretty alarming.
Right?
So I think talking to employeesand getting feedback often and
you know, kind of getting a layof the land of how people feel
current programs do or don'tinclude them or, or give them
(17:58):
what they need, I think is agreat data point to give to
leadership at a company and say,Hey, well this actually isn't
working the way that it used to.
Like let's take the time tothink why and what can we do
differently?
Jenelle (18:10):
Right.
It's one thing to have maybe thegroups or the policies in place
for diversity inclusion, but ifyou're not checking in on how
they're going, then you don'tknow how to adapt and you don't
know how they're affecting youremployees.
That's really interesting.
Dalia (18:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gaby (18:26):
That's actually one of the questions I really struggled
with when we were launching ouremployee resource groups.
What are the, the KPIs, the keyperformance indicators or the
analytics, the data that weshould be looking at to
determine whether something issuccessful.
Because once it's launched, youknow, it can be easy to say,
(18:47):
okay, it's live, it's happening.
Look at all the activities goingon.
We are so inclusive, but how dowe measure success when it comes
to a diversity inclusioninitiative?
Dalia (18:58):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And KPI's are changing all thetime in the D&I space.
Um, for me it always comes backto the basic line of a simple
poll of employees asking them,do you feel like you can bring
your whole self to work?
And as that question changes andas the responses to that change
over time, I think that's whenyou know that the impact that
(19:20):
diversity inclusion programsseek to have are getting less
and less efficient over time.
So I always come back to thatbecause I think there's so many
ways to, to kind of measureimpact and, and track that, uh,
in ways that are serving thebusiness.
But I think just going back tois it serving the people in the
business is the best way to doit.
Gaby (19:45):
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Jenelle (20:21):
One of the areas that you've focused on is, uh,
refugees in the workplace.
Um, so as, as a leader at myorganization, uh, I've always
been very thoughtful about themakeup of my team.
We used to have a lot morecontrol over the people that we
could hire on our team.
It's changed a little bit, butwhen I had that control, I was
(20:43):
always paying pretty closeattention to what was the makeup
of my team, was my team diverse,uh, not only in race and sexual
orientation and ethnicity, ingender.
Um, but refugee was neversomething that I would consider
or keep in mind when I waslooking at that.
So what, what kinds oforganizations or industries does
(21:04):
refugee status specificallyimpact and how?
Dalia (21:08):
Yeah, and I, I want to point out that refugee status is
a legal status and no more,right at the end of the day,
they're still human beings withincredible backgrounds and um,
skills that are a value to alltypes of organizations.
So I would say this impactsevery organization and every
industry because refugees comefrom all sorts of professional
(21:28):
backgrounds, whether business,medicine, manufacturing,
science, technology, you nameit.
So if companies are constantlyseeking top talent, super
practically the refugeepopulation offers a really great
pool of highly skilled, highlymotivated, um, super loyal and
super hardworking talent to pullfrom.
(21:48):
And I think aside from thebusiness need alone, there's
also the question ofresponsibility.
And you know, I think theprivate sector has a really
massive opportunity to help withone of the world's most pressing
crises.
And given that the crisis is sowidespread with over 25 million
displaced individuals, um, Ithink this is a statistic from
(22:09):
even last year, so it's probablyeven greater this year.
We have to consider ourresponsibility as a nation of
immigrants to see how can wesupport this next wave of
immigration.
Whether migrants, refugees,asylees, um, to ensure that they
can really integrate not onlyinto our society, but also into
our economy to build a betterlife.
And, uh, someone I reallyadmire, the CEO of Chobani Hamdi
(22:32):
Ulukaya, um, he's first of all,just an amazing human being and
I'm super lucky I got to workwith his team, uh, during the
refugee project that we did, buthe's trying to change the
narrative around what it meansto be a business in 2019, he was
recently quoted in an interviewsaying something along the lines
of like, uh, businesses don'texist only to make a profit for
(22:53):
shareholders.
We have responsibilities to ourcommunities, uh, toward our
employees and their families.
And we have a responsibility asbusinesses to help grow humanity
and community.
So I think the narrative isreally shifting, um, on, you
know, why businesses should careabout this.
And I think it really comes downto the fact that the role of
businesses in society ischanging and we need to think
(23:17):
more collectively and less, uh,from personal gain or financial
gain.
Jenelle (23:21):
Yeah, I think that that's so important because in
business world you tend to thinkof your stakeholders as your
shareholders and the profit thatyou're making and your
stakeholders are much more thanthat to make sure that you're
building a healthy, uh, company.
Whether that's just from anemployee standpoint, but also
from a financial standpoint.
A follow up question is, isthere something inherently about
(23:45):
the type of support, uh, inorder to do, create a cohesion,
cohesive environment forrefugees versus other
marginalized groups?
Dalia (23:55):
Uh, yes and no.
So, um, something that we foundthrough our research was that,
um, across the almost a hundredrefugees and employees and
employers that we spoke to,there was both agreement that
many of the resources neededalready exist, but rather it's
an access and understandingissue.
Um, which then leads to the flipside of, okay, so then we need
(24:17):
to create more resources toimprove understanding and
access.
So that might be, um, addinglanguage programs.
Maybe it's a buddy that speaksyour language that works in
your, in your team or somewherein the company.
Um, maybe it's literally hiringtranslators, like some of the
companies that we intervieweddid, um, when you realize that
your employees have the skillsthat you need and it's only
(24:37):
language barrier that like holdsthem back from reaching that
full potential and giving yourcompany the full benefit of
diversity, it's a pretty simpleinvestment to make.
Right?
Um, and I think that oncebusinesses see that inclusion
and cohesion both with refugeesand other minority populations
are an opportunity to drivepositive business outcomes, then
they start to realize thatinvesting in inclusion is a very
(25:02):
rewarding business investment.
Um, and a huge competitiveadvantage.
So I mentioned language might beone of them.
I think also understanding theflexibility needs of some of
these refugee populations issuper important.
Um, they may have family abroadthat they need to speak to at
certain times of day or familyat home that they need to take
care of.
And I think, um, more and more,you know, there's conversations
(25:24):
around flexibility andpredictability in companies, but
when you really take a step backto listen to what your employees
need, whether refugees or not,um, and give them the space to
be humans as well as workers, Ithink that's when you really get
to unlock the benefits ofdiversity in the workplace.
Jenelle (25:40):
I love that.
Be humans as well as workers.
Very true.
Gaby (25:43):
This is something that really touched my life and my
family's life directly becausemy, my parents, my, my dad in
particular and his side of thefamily were all refugees and
asylum seekers during the civilwar in El Salvador, which ended
in the mid nineties and they allended up in 13 different
countries.
15 brothers and sisters.
Dalia (26:04):
Wow, dang!
Gaby (26:04):
Yeah, it's pretty incredible.
And in particular, you know,they, they ended up here in the
United States and Canada and um,Costa Rica and Venezuela, like
really anywhere that would givethem refugee status.
But one of the hardest thingsonce you're displaced and then
(26:24):
in a diaspora community isfinding work in the line that
you've actually studied.
And also feeling like you belongand I think this research is
critical to ensuring that we,especially today, right?
There's going to be a huge needthere already is for including
(26:45):
and creating a sense ofbelonging and cohesion not only
in our workplaces but also inour everyday lives.
Especially with the crisis atthe border going on right now.
I think this is a topic thatpeople are really going to want
to listen to.
It, It's going to just continueto be an issue because we know
(27:05):
that with climate change therewill be further exacerbation of
the amount of folks who have toleave their home in search for
resources, natural resources andaccess to water, access to food
and this is going to be an issuethat will continue to come back
over and over again.
Dalia (27:25):
I think that emphasizes the urgency of really figuring
out how to engage the privatesector in building solutions
around this now because as youalluded to, there will be new
types of refugees emerging inour country and in the world
over the next 50 years.
And if we can't figure out a wayto make it work now, we won't be
(27:47):
able to handle it when it'sexacerbated.
Jenelle (27:50):
So I work, like I said before with a lot of brand new
managers, um, and I find newmanagers quite fun because
they're really eager and theywant to learn and they wanted to
really well.
Um, but there's also a lot offear and being a new manager of,
you know, are, am I gonna dowell?
Are People gonna like me?
(28:11):
Um, and those are some of myfavorite people to work with
cause I really like to kind ofbreak down what that fear is and
getting them to be in a placewhere they are able to be a
little bit more vulnerable.
Um, but it can be really scaryin that position to try to
figure out how, not just to be agood manager and a good leader,
but how to build that inclusiveenvironment.
(28:33):
So if you were to speak to abrand new manager, are there
specific things that you believethey can do to foster inclusion
or are there specific resourcesthat you would point them to?
Dalia (28:45):
Great question.
Um, I would say first, and thisis something I would say to
anyone, uh, look around you lookside to side.
How many people in your team areon your level look and sound
like you?
And I think answering thatquestion honestly is a great
first step.
Um, and then looking up anddown.
So how many minorities are thereentering your company in entry
(29:06):
level positions as well asprogressing into positions of
leadership?
Always start by looking aroundyou.
Second, we mentioned this alittle bit before, but making
sure that there's awareness,understanding and access to
various company resources,whether it's programs,
initiatives, services, um, moremature companies have a lot of
diversity and inclusionresources available.
(29:27):
But whether it's onboarding,learning and development,
mentorship, et Cetera, somegroups need a little bit extra
help to learn about andunderstand and access these
programs.
So figure out where there mightbe a gap between what's offered
and what's used and figure outif it's disinterest or if it's
truly just not being aware ofit.
(29:48):
Third, I'd say really listen,and this is something that's
come up a few times in thisconversation, right?
It's not just when employees aresaying, but also what they're
not saying or might be great tosay and see how you can
alleviate some of the externalcircumstances that might get in
the way of them doing their bestwork, whether it's language or
family responsibilities orsomething else.
But the role of employers arechanging and it's increasingly
(30:10):
important for employers to seehow they might enable the
success of the entire acumen.
And not just the worker, as wealready said.
And I'd say finally, um, open upa platform for storytelling,
whether it's empowering yourteam members to share their
journeys or bringing in externaldiversity and inclusion experts
to educate or facilitate funworkshops.
(30:30):
Um, create a safe space forauthentic expression in a way
that's not just to educate, butalso to build empathy and make
people feel closer.
All of these things are thingsthat non-managerial employees
can do as well.
I think inclusion is acollective effort and engaging
the entire team in the workplace, uh, to create inclusion makes
(30:52):
them also feel included.
And it's important to not onlyprepare the minority employees
to succeed and do well, but alsomake sure that the non minority
populations who can be some ofthe most influential people in
creating inclusion at work feellike they have the support, the
tools, the voice that they needto be a part of the company's
decisions.
And then as far as resources,um, if new managers are looking
(31:16):
for resources to draw upon asthey design their teams or their
workplaces to better utilize andnurture the talents of
minorities, I'm also happy to bea resource to anyone, of course,
they can feel free to reach outto me on my website.
It's daliakatan.com, they canalso check out forward slash
inclusion and let me know whatquestions you have.
I'm happy to point you in theright direction.
(31:36):
You can also check out some ofthe reports that I coauthored,
um, including a report on how toinclude refugees in the
workplace.
Um, and again, while I'vewritten with refugees at heart,
these are really principles thatcan benefit any employee.
Um, also a report on how leadersand teams can improve their
performance in an increasinglyfast changing world.
Other resources for refugeerelated issues.
(31:57):
I couldn't recommend enough, TheTent Partnership for Refugees.
They put out some reallyincredible reports on the
intersection of refugees andinclusion and for resources on
team dynamics and the future ofwork.
Check out The Center For TheEdge.
It's an innovation think tankthat I worked for and they've
produced some really coolcontent on productive friction
(32:17):
team, dynamics, the future ofwork, et Cetera.
Jenelle (32:20):
I love the statement of, um, not, it's not just
managers who can help fosterthis relationship, right?
It's everybody.
Um, the one thing that I throwback is I'm always trying to get
my managers to think about thismore because they can also be
the ones to halt it, haltprogression, um, when they're
not seeing the need.
(32:40):
And I think the biggest thingthat I'm constantly trying to
make my managers and the peoplethat I have mentored is to make
them aware of what their teammakeup looks like.
Just the sentence of look toyour left, look to your right,
look up, look down who's aroundyou, and what's needed is really
important.
And I think it's, it's thispractice of trying to get
(33:01):
managers and leaders to lookoutside of themselves, um, and
not just what is the goal athand, but how do you do that
with your team and is your teamsupported as a human being in
order to make that happen?
Because if they're not supportedas a human being first, then
you're never gonna really reachthe true potential of whatever
(33:22):
that goal could be.
So I love all of that.
That's really tangible stuffthat I think people can use.
Gaby (33:28):
You also talked about the importance of storytelling,
which to be honest, that'sprobably my favorite thing that
you've said today, surprise,being coming from a journalism
background and also from amarketing communications
background, there's such a powerin oral histories and telling
your story and passing thatforward and being able to feel
(33:50):
visible by telling your story.
And that this is really a bigpart of why we are doing this
podcast is helping people have aplatform where they can share
their stories, share theirresources, their expertise, and
support others in trying to bemore visible.
Um, and using our poweressentially to lift other people
up.
(34:10):
So this is just so critical, notjust as an employee, as a peer,
but as, as a human being.
I think being able to not onlytell your own story and be
vulnerable and honest about yourexperience and being able to
listen, truly, deeply listen toother people's stories and
authentically engaging inempathy and understanding and
(34:34):
growing from there.
So something that we like to askevery single interviewee is,
what allyship means to you andhow can we be allies to you?
Dalia (34:46):
I think the first thing is always speaking up.
So being a champion or advocatefor someone who's constantly
overlooked for a leadership rolethat they might be qualified for
, um, or pointing out homogenyto a manager, uh, and offering
help with recruiting I think isalways a great place to start.
Stepping aside, and sometimesthat means shutting up if I can
(35:07):
curse on a podcast.
Um, recognizing when you are notmaking room for others to share
their opinions.
Um, giving up a part of yourprivilege to lift others up, um,
and sometimes making yourself alittle bit uncomfortable so that
those who might not have thesame opportunity can succeed in
the workplace.
Um, I would say what it's not isit's not mentorship.
(35:30):
Um, it's not just, you know,giving people advice or saying,
Hey, I'm here for you if youneed it.
It's also a champion.
It's going above and beyondgiving advice and really
leveraging your network andbeing invested in their success.
Um, putting their interests andthe group interests over
sometimes your own personalinterests.
Gaby (35:49):
That's a wonderful definition of allyship.
I love it.
Jenelle (35:53):
Last, before we let you go, is there anything that
you're up to right now that youwant to let our audience know
about?
Dalia (36:00):
Thanks for asking.
Um, a lot of fun stuff.
I've been thinking a lot moreabout the future of work.
I'm actually coauthoring a bookcalled Part-Time Wild, which is
a guide to help employersredefine their relationship with
employees and support theirwhole, or human selves as we've
spoken about today.
Um, and also helping employeesnavigate conversations around
(36:22):
part time work.
And our hypothesis there reallyis that the future work is not
full time jobs and it's notnecessarily freelance either.
I think it's this new, uh, it'sactually not completely new, but
we're trying to redefine whatpart-time means and kind of shed
some of the stigma behind it,um, and create this part time
lifestyle that's actuallyliberating to employees while
(36:44):
also maximizing the benefit thatemployers can get from their
employees.
So if any of you listeners havea great story you want to share
about your own part timejourneys, um, please feel free
to reach out to me atDaliakatan.com, um, I've also
been coaching others ondesigning their lives around
curiosity and creativity, um,and helping them create space
for creative sabbaticals.
(37:05):
Work's been keeping you prettybusy, when I'm not doing
diversity and inclusion stuff.
I'm usually helping startups andincorporations redesign their
growth and innovationstrategies.
So that's been taking up a lotof my bandwidth, I'd say.
Gaby (37:19):
Congratulations.
That's amazing.
Sounds like you've got a lot ofirons in the fire.
It's really cool to hear thatyou have such a passion for
diversity, inclusion and hearingyour experience with research
and sharing your personalperspective as well with us.
Really can't thank you enoughfor being here and for sharing
your story with us and sharingsome of your resources with our
(37:39):
community.
Really, thank you so much forbeing with us.
Dalia (37:42):
Oh, this is really fun.
Thank you ladies for making thisspace for me to share all this
stuff.
You both are such amazing co-hosts.
I'm excited to share this.
Again, I told you two thisbefore, but like because I've
been writing reports, it's soinaccessible.
Like I wouldn't even sit andread a hundred page report
someone wrote like even if itwas exactly what I was
interested in.
So it's important what you galsare doing to make this work more
(38:05):
accessible, and to like share, Ithink things that people may or
may not read otherwise in a waythat's easy to digest and easy
to kind of like listen to you onthe road while you're going to
work.
So this is super important work.
Gaby (38:20):
That's the dream.
Jenelle (38:21):
Yeah, that is the dream.
Gaby (38:21):
Trying to make it more accessible.
Here we go.
Let's see how it works.
Well, congrats on the work thatyou have coming.
It sounds like you, you've gotthis amazing book and I'm going
to read it the second it comesout.
Yeah.
Dalia (38:33):
Thank you, I'll send you guys a copy.
Gaby (38:35):
Yes, please do.
Please do.
Jenelle (38:38):
[Beep Beep] When when she finished with allyship is
not mentorship.
I was like, oh no, I talkedabout being a mentor.
I s this bad?
Dalia (38:44):
No, I like that because what she's saying is it's, it
goes beyond mentorship.
Right?
It's not just mentorship.
Jenelle (38:52):
Yeah.
Gaby (38:52):
Mentorship is one element that can help, but it's about
making sure that you're being achampion also, which I think you
do really well.
That's something that I'venoticed in your work.
You're not just a mentor topeople giving them advice and
guidance.
You're there for them in theroom when they're not there to
promote them and celebrate themand, and put them in positions
(39:15):
where they can learn themselves.
Right.
Like that to me is championingsomebody versus just mentoring
somebody.
Jenelle (39:23):
Yeah.
What is a champion is so hard todefine in some way because it
can be really specific to theperson or the instance, right?
Like what, what somebody needsas a champion really depends
upon the circumstances.
And so I like to think that I'ma champion, but I get nervous
(39:43):
that I need to be doing more orthat I'm not doing enough.
And so I don't know, it's just agood reminder for me that
talking about this stuff is onething, but making sure that I'm
actionable in that.
So for example, like I had tobring up to one of our SVPs a
(40:03):
few months ago, the fact thatbecause I'm not allowed to pick
who's on my team anymore, thatmeans that I've lost the
opportunity to make sure that myteam is diverse.
Um, and so I had to bring thatup and make sure that they were
aware of it so they can add thatin.
And so I want to make sure thatthat is championship, if that
(40:24):
makes sense.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Yeah, that's advocacy to me that seems like something
that if you were passivelytrying to provide the optics of
being an inclusive leader,that's not something that you
would do.
You're actually asking forsomething, but you know what,
maybe this'll help us both.
Let's look for somebody who cantalk about what it looks like to
be a champion in the roombecause I think that's a cool
(40:47):
topic and it's something thatpeople ask all the time.
I have had several folks ask mewhat it looks like to be a
champion in a room and I havebeen able to provide my own
opinion, my own thoughts on it.
But definitely not based on anyexpertise in any way.
So, Yeah.
Let's look for somebody.
Jenelle (41:05):
I think her topics right, the, the overarching of
what she's talking about is sogreat and so important.
Um, I loved her, like what arethe five pieces that create a
community where people feel likethey are included in there, they
want to be there and how therewere sort of these five things
to think about.
I love that as a starting point,but then it's not just the
(41:28):
policies that you're doing, it'swhat you're doing in the room.
So yeah, I think that that wouldbe really interesting to take
this from sort of a larger topicto something a little bit more
focused.
Gaby (41:38):
Yeah, I agree.
I think it would be really cool.
This is a nice place to start.
This is a first conversation,right?
Like this is our first moreformal starting from the macro
understanding
Jenelle (41:48):
[Singing] Started from the bottom now we're here.
Gaby (41:50):
Starting from the top here.
Theoretical.
Jenelle (41:52):
Yeah, sure.
Dalia (41:52):
Let's, let's make our way down to the more practical and
try to dig into the niche topicsthat we just touched on today.
Gaby (42:01):
Thank you so much for joining us for this fabulous
interview with the incredibleand brilliant Dalia Katan.
Are you somebody who has a seatat the table and actively
champions for people, especiallyfor minorities or
underrepresented folks in yourorganization, in your company or
in your community?
Or are you somebody who haspersonally experienced having a
(42:22):
champion in that room advocatingfor you?
We want to hear from you.
What does that look like inpractice?
While you're leaving your voicememo on our website, make sure
to subscribe to our newsletterfor some additional behind the
scenes material.
It comes out every other weekalternating with our episodes.
If you want access to bonusmaterials like funny bloopers
(42:42):
and also some vulnerablereflections on what it looks
like and feels like to try tobecome better allies, make sure
to sign up to be a monthlypatron by clicking on our
patreon button on the top rightof the websites.
This episode was produced by me,Gaby Acosta, and co- hosted by
my boo, Jenelle Acosta.
Our music was written andproduced by the talented Emily
(43:04):
Henry.
Here's Jenelle singing thisweek's list of seed fund
sponsors.
Jenelle (43:14):
David Leme, I like you a lot.
I also like David Winship.
Dawn Andreas, you are my friend.
I also like[inaudible]Dutcher-Stoy family, hi Amelia!
Emily Henry, you wrote our themesong.
Emily Jorgensen, you are great.
Gaby (43:30):
Hashtag!
Jenelle (43:31):
30 for 30 baby, yeah.
[Dog Barks] Every time.
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