October 29, 2024 • 54 mins
In this enlightening episode of The Wayfinder Show, host Luis Hernandez engages with Todd Holzman, founder of Holzman Leadership, to explore the multifaceted nature of leadership. They delve into the universal right and responsibility of leadership, emphasizing actionable courage regardless of authority. Key topics include the role of courage, curiosity, and compassion in leadership, and the importance of candid communication to foster morale and organizational culture. They discuss communication pitfalls, such as leading questions, stressing the importance of identifying and agreeing on problems before taking action. Todd shares effective communication strategies, including a practical three-step hack for difficult conversations, and insights on expressing truths and overcoming limiting beliefs. Personal anecdotes and practical advice for personal growth and humility round out this compelling episode, offering listeners valuable leadership insights and engagement opportunities.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Leadership is everybody's rightand everybody's responsibility
because, you know, everybodythat I know, clients, friends,
inside of their families, atwork, communities.
You know, churches, whatever,they are bothered by all kinds
(00:20):
of problems all the time thatthey see, or they're excited
about opportunities to makethings better, and they're
always being called upon.
All of us are always beingcalled upon every day.
So we're going to talk aboutthese things.
(00:47):
Welcome to The Wayfinder Showwith Luis Hernandez, where
guests discuss the why and howof making changes that led them
down a more authentic path orallow them to level up in some
area of their life.
Our goal is to dig deep andprovide not only knowledge, but
actionable advice to help youget from where you are to where
you want to be.
(01:08):
Come join us and find the way toyour dream life.
Welcome back to the wayfindershow.
I'm your host, Louie Hernandez,and we're here with Todd Holzman
today.
Todd founded Holzman leadershipafter decades in a career in
(01:30):
leadership development andorganizational consultant.
Holtzman Leadership is committedto sustainable behavior change
and measurable business impact.
Todd has taught world leaders atHarvard's Kennedy School of
Government, developed doctoralstudents at Columbia University,
trained tens of thousands ofleaders globally, and certified
(01:51):
hundreds of consultants andtrainers in his real work
process.
No matter whom he's workingwith, Or the problem he's
solving Todd's driving passionis to develop the difference
makers to be a force for good inthe world.
So with that, welcome to thewayfinder show, Todd.
Todd (02:09):
Thank you, Louie.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
Luis (02:11):
So Todd, you know, there's an age old question I've always
been wondering the answer to,and that is like, what makes a
good leader?
Todd (02:19):
So an age old question that somehow in the first two
minutes of this podcast, I'msupposed to finally enlighten
you on.
you know, I'd rather talk aboutwhat's good leadership because
We, that's what we need a lotmore of in the world, not just
people, to lead better frompositions of authority.
(02:43):
Because a lot of times we talkabout leaders, right?
We talk about, somebody gettingto the top position, having lots
of power and authority.
the folks that I was reallyinfluenced by, at the Kennedy
School of Government at Harvard,Ron Hypass and Dean Williams.
They make a distinction betweenleaders and leadership.
Because I imagine, you know,everybody who's listening here,
(03:07):
you've seen, you've probablyknown a lot of leaders that you
don't get much leadership from.
And you probably know a lot ofpeople who aren't technically
leaders, but you can count onthem to exercise leadership.
And so what I, and these,amazing gentlemen mean by
leadership, it's the ability tomobilize it, connect with people
(03:29):
to confront and deal with realproblems.
And opportunities to make thingsbetter.
And that means it's somethingthat you can do when you
actually are the leader, butperhaps even more importantly,
something that you can do,regardless of whether you have a
lot of authority and power thatyou can do, regardless of your
(03:50):
place in the hierarchy or yourrole in the organization.
I think thinking aboutleadership in this way.
So in this way, then, leadershipis everybody's right and
everybody's responsibility,because, you know, everybody
that I know, clients, friends,inside of their families, at
(04:11):
work, communities, you know,churches, whatever, they are
bothered by all kinds ofproblems all the time that they
see, or they're excited aboutopportunities to make things
better.
They're always being calledupon.
All of us are always beingcalled upon every day.
(04:34):
So are we going to talk aboutthese things?
Are we going to try to addressthem with our friends, our
colleagues, our managers, ourclients?
Or are we going to avoid them,you know, and work around them?
And so what makes a greatleader?
Somebody who exercisesleadership on a regular basis.
(04:55):
And that means that you're goingto talk to other people about
the real issues Andopportunities to make things
better that maybe they'reavoiding, they don't want to
deal with, they're blind to,they're struggling with.
And find a way to kind of alsostep up and engage.
Luis (05:15):
I've had lead, you know, now I, I have my own businesses,
but I've worked in corporateenvironments.
Right.
And one of them was, the BoyScouts of America.
I actually started myprofessional career there.
and you know, they, they'regreat for leadership
development, both in, with youthand with executives.
I mean, they have world classprograms, right?
And, but one of the things Iwould notice is there were
people within the organization,whether they be volunteers or
(05:38):
executives, right?
Who just can take a problem andrally everybody around it.
And it isn't one that might evenbe a priority of the
organization or, you know, atthe top, but that person, they
usually stand out very quickand, there's no ego, there's no,
you don't know what their resumelooks like, what their position
(05:58):
is, but people are there.
they have that it quality thatpeople come around to, and they
lead them to get these greatproblems solved.
Right?
and I've always looked at thosepeople as the real leaders.
Right?
and
Todd (06:12):
was it always, Somebody like the top dog who was doing
it or was it also sometimespeople at lower levels who would
even Engage the higher levelpeople in facing things.
Luis (06:23):
That's exactly right.
there are people at the highlevels, too Of course, I think
somewhere along the way youprobably were that person to get
there oftentimes I found thatthe people at the highest levels
Weren't now that isn't alwaysthe case.
There's Some leaders I've alwaysreally appreciated and respected
at very high levels who wereservant leaders.
they wanted to know everybody atthe different hierarchy, how
(06:45):
they operated and support themthey really made that servant
leadership, a priority ratherthan their vision for ego's
sake.
or to do it just because they'rethe ones in charge, does that
make sense?
Like,
Todd (06:59):
something that you said about servant leadership, the
guy who invented the term was aguy named Greenleaf, So what's
implicit in my definition ofleadership, which I said is
about mobilizing connected withpeople to confront and deal with
problems and opportunities tomake things better, is that
you're exercising leadership onbehalf of bringing more good
(07:22):
into the world.
So, in that sense, You aretrying to serve people in the
world and that has to be yourobjective.
It has to be your ultimate goal.
It's not about ambition, selfinterest, money, power, any of
that.
Now you may accrue those thingsas a result of doing that.
(07:44):
Well, I remember my firstmartial arts teacher, uh, this
amazing, um, started doingTaekwondo when I was, You know,
already in my late teens, I, my,when I went to Cornell undergrad
and uh, I found, uh, all these,this fight sites that do do it
(08:06):
competitively, uh, very, uh,very stressful.
And because somebody wants tohit you.
And, he used to say, and I alsofound the prospect of.
Winning and not losing verystressful.
he used to say, fight your bestfight and let the winning take
care of itself.
This was, Han Cho, amazinginstructor, amazing martial
(08:29):
artist.
And I think leadership is likethat.
It's.
You do your best to do good witha true heart for people and the
world or the organization thatyou're in or your customers,
however you want to slice it,and good will accrue to you as a
result.
(08:50):
and what I liked about, yourexample from the boy scouts, it
reminded me of somebody.
I've got this large globalfaculty, 13 people and growing.
Most of them, are not in thestates and the rest are
stateside they're great coachesleadership trainers sales
trainers and organizationdevelopment consultants.
I still do the work myself andi'm providing personal coaching
(09:15):
to, the North American CEO for awell known luxury brand we met
at the Harvard club the otherday, and he was telling me the
story about how he had givenpresentation.
I think it was to the entiresales force.
and so he's got first line setof manners, probably three
(09:35):
different levels in the roombelow him.
And then a week later, somebodyat the lowest level, like kind
of like sales rep level, booksome time with him.
And she says to him, I don'tlike the fact that you referred
to our brand as a sub brand.
(09:56):
And he said back to her, but Ireferred to all of them as a sub
brand.
Now I want to look at that as anexample of leadership on both
parts.
What was great about what shedid, so the CEO is what, three
levels above him, but he saidsomething that rubbed her wrong,
(10:17):
and also it was rubbing herwrong because it was rubbing her
whole group wrong.
So the last thing you want to doas a CEO is say something by
accident and demotivate yourentire sales force.
But she had the courage, and Ithink as a characteristic,
courage is certainly adimension, not the only
dimension, but it's certainly acrucial dimension around
(10:38):
leadership.
she had the courage to step upand have that conversation, and
had she not, he'd have beentotally in the dark, about how
his inadvertent words haddemotivated the entire sales
force.
So, God bless her for doingthat, and God bless him for how
he responded.
it's like, okay, that certainlywasn't my intention, but why
(10:59):
does it bother you that usethose terms?
Well, I think you think youthink that we're less than, and
why is that?
he was able to clean up thewhole thing.
He didn't make her wrong for it.
So it's more likely than notthat she and other people will
get the message about how openhe was.
He received the feedback withgrace.
He changed his communication.
He cleaned it up.
(11:20):
That's a leadership culture,man.
and both ends of the hierarchyhad to do their part, but it
started with somebody who hadthe least power and authority in
the organization speaking to themost powerful person in the
organization, and it tookcourage and her part, and it
started to have curiosity andcompassion on his part.
And those would be three goodC's courage, curiosity,
(11:44):
compassion.
And they talked about somethingthat actually really mattered.
And it led to a resolution thathad it not been discussed would
have festered and hurt salesperformance and hurt their
morale.
And then it hurts thempsychologically, right?
Cause they feel bad.
And then you bring it home.
(12:05):
So this is why candor becomes soimportant to leadership and is
probably the Amongst two orthree capabilities, arguably, I
think the most one of the topthree most important because we
can't make the world better ifwe can't talk about the issues.
That the addressing of whichwill make things better and this
(12:28):
is where people More often thannot really struggle.
Luis (12:32):
I've seen organizations where whether you know, one
level isn't allowed to talk tothe next right?
So just right in the same roomwith four levels of hierarchy
difference and That shows a lotof, what self confidence, I
think, as an organization,right.
That even allows that.
Todd (12:51):
And I will say, I don't think this is a, this is a
global organization.
I don't think, I don't know ifthis is true, but my sense is,
that dynamic, which I was justsharing with you, it's not like
it's a part of the cultureworldwide.
So, what's also true is there issomething called culture, right,
that often can cut across anentire country.
(13:14):
Sometimes the culture isspecific to a certain region, if
you're looking at a globalorganization, or a certain
territory, if you're looking atsmaller organizations.
But also, I think what the storysays is, if what I'm saying is
true, that the right leader canalso create an aberration, a
positive aberration to the restof the culture.
(13:34):
There is some choice that peoplehave in the matter, because we
are, through our actions, we'reeither colluding with the
culture as it is, or we'rehelping to move it in a healthy
space.
And we often see culture assomething out here that we have
no influence on.
But if you just go along withthe culture, you're silently
reinforcing it.
Now, if you push yourself toofar outside of the culture,
(13:55):
right?
Like, let's say there would havebeen some rule that you can't
talk to this guy, and she wouldhave somehow got some time with
him.
And then she would have tohandle that so well, so
competently, um, to not create aproblem for herself.
But maybe she would have to havea conversation with somebody
else who could then have theconversation with this person.
(14:19):
So it doesn't mean she wouldhave to not have it, it would
just mean she would have to bemuch smarter about how she, and
skillful about how sheapproaches it.
Luis (14:30):
Yeah, so, talking about this, topic of candor.
Yeah.
I think it is interesting, Probably the majority of people
who work for companies at somepoint feel a certain level of,
disenfranchisement, burnout,they're not happy with where
they work for one reason oranother.
And I think, a big underlyingeffect is that lack of being
(14:53):
able to be candid.
So with the powers that be Andwhy do you
Todd (14:57):
say it's, why do you frame it as empowered?
Luis (15:02):
Oh, interesting question.
I think
Todd (15:04):
we're coming
Luis (15:04):
to it.
I think that a lot of us, welook at where we work as an
employer.
We need that.
We need it.
we look at it as we need to workthere because that's how we feed
our family and, you know, itsatisfies our, it, it completes
our identity.
Right.
I mean, so much of our identityin America or in a lot of places
in the world are who we workfor.
(15:24):
All of those things, and we'reafraid of losing it, right?
we're afraid that, hey, if we goand we tell this person
something they don't want tohear, then we're going to lose
our jobs, or our jobs are goingto get even harder, you know?
And, and there are organizationswhere I think that, that could
be the case.
There's been examples of it, sotherefore people don't feel like
(15:45):
they can be candid.
Todd (15:47):
Okay, this is going to be, very interesting.
I have some hopefully usefulthings to say about that.
So the headline of everythingI'm about to say is something
like, it definitely has to dowith that.
You're right that it's partiallyabout empowerment, but probably
(16:10):
not as much as people think
and
feel.
I'll get into that.
first of all, to support yourassertion around the empowerment
thing, yes, people are, forunderstandable reasons, afraid.
Of saying what they thinkparticularly if it's they're
(16:30):
going to be disagreeing withsomeone Because there's a lot at
stake right their credibilitytheir credibility which can
affect their Bonuses theircareer advancement, you know All
of that And you can pay theultimate price of getting fired
and I have it we're doing justthat.
(16:51):
and a lot of, and a lot ofcompanies, big and small
struggle with, terms you'veheard before, like psychological
safety.
And creating an environmentwhere people can create speak up
cultures.
And the example I was giving youwas demonstrating just the
opposite.
(17:11):
There was, at least with thisleader, a lot of room to speak
up.
What people don't realize is ifthey were more skilled, they
would have a lot more room tospeak up without all these bad
(17:33):
things that they fear happening,that might happen from
happening.
So I'll give an example.
I'll give a couple of examples.
Well, Ken, before
Luis (17:40):
you go, by saying if they were more skilled,
Todd (17:44):
Yeah.
Do you
Luis (17:44):
mean at their jobs or at communicating?
Todd (17:47):
communicating.
So, and that might feel to youand your listeners like pretty
bold statement.
I think I have some good reasonsto say it, but also give an
example a second because one ofthe things that we do in our
work, whether we're coaching anindividual, a team training,
(18:11):
dozens of leaders through ourleadership programs, or
coaching, hundreds to thousandsof salespeople.
We do a lot of that in thepharma and it space about how to
have much more productiveconversations with their
customers and ways that deepenrelationships, but also move the
needle in terms of them growingtheir businesses.
And that, which means they oftenhave challenged.
There are customers in the waythey're thinking, and they're
scared because they don't wantto lose access.
(18:32):
They don't want to hurt therelationship, all of that.
And what they do is they alwaysbring to us a conversation that
they want to have that theythink if I can have it, well,
it'll make things better, butI'm afraid of having it because
it could make things worse
or
one that I had where I didn't get the results that I
wanted.
Right.
Despite my best intentions.
And we have a very cool way of,of a foolproof way of figuring
(18:56):
out how did it How do theyactually talk in those
situations?
We get access to very reliabledata on that, when you look at
the data, we've looked at wellover 30, 000 documented
conversations where peoplepredicted they wouldn't get the
results that they wanted oractually didn't.
In every one of those instances,not to say there isn't somebody
that they're dealing with that'sjust difficult, Close, stubborn,
(19:22):
whatever, that got their ownpersonal agenda.
But for all the people that sentus these examples, there is
always something that they'redoing or not doing, which is
preventing the conversation fromgoing a lot better.
Number one.
Number two, they don't realizethat.
Almost everybody's got a majorblind spot.
(19:43):
Um, when the conversations justdon't go well.
What is it about their approachthat's part of the problem?
So as an example, one of thethings that people have been,
have either, for whateverreason, think is a good idea is,
here's an old ditty, try to makethe person to believe this is
their idea.
(20:06):
Some conventional wisdom wouldteach you how to do that.
And the mechanism for doing thatis called the leading question.
Right?
So if my partner were listeningnow, she might say, Todd, do you
think it's a good idea to talkas much as you do on these
podcasts?
Right?
Now, if she were to say that tome, we know it's not a question.
(20:27):
It is a statement barelydisguised as a question.
But it's designed to get me tosee it so she doesn't have to
say it.
Well, the thing with theseleading questions is they
backfire almost all the time,they never work.
But when you are the person whois asking a leading question, it
doesn't get, you don't realizeyou're asking a leading
(20:47):
question, you actually thinkyou're making a point.
But you're actually not, you'retrying to disguise your point,
you're asking a form of aquestion.
So when it backfires on you, Alot of people think, you see,
they're not open to honesty.
The truth is though, you weren'thonest.
You asked a question and triedto pretend like it was a
question.
so people have got major blindspots around where they don't
(21:12):
get good responses to theircommunication.
What is it about them and theway they're communicating that's
contributing to that?
That's
a great,
my field has done a horrible idea, Louie of, of
really explaining it in a, in a.
In an easy to remember Usefulway what does good look like in
these important conversations?
(21:33):
We've done a horrible job ofthat I mean people still
advocate for can I curse in thispodcast?
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, the shit sandwich.
Yeah.
Okay, I'm going to say some goodstuff, then I'm going to say the
shit that I really think isimportant, and then I'm going to
end it with some, some goodstuff again.
First of all, it's phonymanipulative, and people see
(21:56):
through it.
Now, it's not even a shitsandwich anymore.
It's more like a shit focaccia,right?
Because we don't have the time.
So, so we gotta, we gottashorten it.
So, what happens is, this is whyI'm making the case for, I'm not
saying the environmentsmaximally encourage people to
express the truth to what theythink, but a lot of it is,
(22:18):
people just don't know what todo.
And the ideas that we have fedthem are often bad ideas.
That then when they do speak upthey get bad results and they go
you see the environment isn'topen to it And so this is where
you know, we've invested a lotof time Um, this is this has
(22:39):
been my singular obsession isfiguring out So what does good
look like in these situationsand how do we help people get
beyond their fears?
And so they can produce thiseffective Conversational
behavior.
Luis (22:52):
Yeah, man, that is a great point.
You know, i'm thinking i've beenguilty of the leading questions.
I mean Hey, I'm an interviewerhere on a podcast.
So that's kind of what I do.
Todd (23:01):
you haven't asked me one leading question at least, or at
least you're fooling me.
You ask curious questions.
Luis (23:06):
I am curious.
Yes.
You're not
Todd (23:08):
trying to make me think what you think.
You may be asking me provocativequestions to pull something out
of me.
Or maybe you'll ask a goodinterviewer a question in a
challenging way, but you'redoing it in order to get
whatever my truth is out of myhead through my mouth, not to
(23:29):
get your truth through my mouth.
That's the difference.
Luis (23:31):
Right.
So, you know, I think that youtouched on something, though,
with the leading questions as anexample.
I think, we often, when we'refrustrated and we're trying to
communicate something, we'llthink of a way that we think is
brilliant of communicatingsomething, right?
And that could be the leadingquestion, as an example, or it
could be another way, how wereframe something, what have
(23:52):
you.
But we usually only go one deep.
And if it doesn't work, wethink, okay, I've done
everything I can, but thatperson just doesn't get it.
and we don't look back on to howto, Reframe it to actually be
effective, right?
So with that in mind, I'mcurious, you know, at the risk
of you giving away, yourservices here.
What, what is the right way?
(24:13):
Like, how do, how do we actuallyget out?
Todd (24:17):
No, let me get there secondarily, because I want to
come back to this assertion thatI made.
It's always the question.
Is it me or the environment thatI'm working within that stopping
me?
Right.
For expressing myself moreeffectively around things that
matter.
(24:38):
the thing is, the universe isknocking on our door every day.
It bothers us about things.
And the question is, are wegoing to talk about it or not?
So, I remember there was thisguy, and you made a great point
that people become,disenfranchised.
Sometimes because of thisphenomenon, because yeah.
Why wouldn't you, if you feellike you can't express the truth
(25:00):
of what you think, it'sincredibly demoralizing and just
hang on because of survivalneeds.
It has a way, it can have a wayof degrading your soul at some
level, you know, and then ofcourse you're looking for the
exit and maybe you can findsomething that's closer to your
passion to have your ownbusiness and all of that.
It's great.
And I don't want to faultanybody for any of that.
(25:21):
Because.
You're probably a bunch of youraudience.
They're either entrepreneurs orbudding entrepreneurs, and maybe
they've known their whole lives,they should be doing something.
And they're only finding theircourage now.
And they took the safe route forunderstandable reasons, and now
they don't feel like they haveto, or they're just fed up.
So for those class of people, Imean, go forth and prosper, man.
(25:46):
But there are other people, butI also want people to have more
of a choice in the matter.
And an example I'll give you,about somebody who was
disaffected And then when theyapplied what we had taught them,
they stayed on the job.
So there was this guy at a,let's call it one of the
largest, telecommunication slashtechnology companies in the
(26:08):
world based not in Americaoverseas.
And they had hired this guy, Idon't know.
And he was a brilliant guy.
they finally got him on boardand after, six months in the
company, he was ready to quit.
It was like, this place is socomplicated.
It's so bureaucratic.
(26:28):
You can't get anything done.
I want to kill myself.
He comes to the workshop, and hebrings this case study, like we
have people write up about anexample where he couldn't get
somebody else.
in another department to helphim and his team solve some
problem, no matter what hetried.
And we looked at the way he wastrying.
No wonder why he failed, right?
(26:49):
Because he was falling into allkinds of traps, leading
questions, by the way, jumpingto action, like offering
solutions that before the guyeven agreed there was a problem,
as an example.
And we helped him see that, andthen we taught him some of the
things which we may talk aboutnow, about how to have a much
better conversation with thosepeople, and he started realizing
that in order to be moreeffective here, he was going to
(27:12):
have to make some majoradjustments in the way he
communicates with people, andonce he started doing that, he
started getting more done, andat least as far as I knew until
two years later, he was stillthere.
You know, and he was happier,and people were happier with
him.
so I guess that there's a ruleof thumb, I would say.
(27:34):
See, the problem with leavingquestions, or jumping to action,
right?
Hey, let me offer you a solutionto a problem that we haven't
even just talked about and youdon't even agree with, right?
So if I offer you a solution toa problem that you don't even
agree you have.
Or that you're not evenmotivated to solve what's going
to happen to my even if it's anawesome solution What's going to
happen?
This is called the leadingquestion, by the way, nothing
(27:55):
exactly, you know sales one onone, right?
You got to sell to a need Yougot to sell a problem or a pain.
You can't just promote yoursolution.
So the same thing in sales,right?
People have a problem.
They're not looking for asolution.
So the problem with leadingquestions and, and this other
trap of jumping to action, thatwas one of the biggest traps
that we see people fall into.
We'd look at all thisconversational data that we've
(28:17):
been very lucky to have accessto is there's no real discussion
on the problem to be solved andtherefore.
If you can't talk about theproblem, you can't agree that
the problem actually exists.
You can't create any motive, andyou can't create any motivation
to address it.
And if you want to solve aproblem, if you want to exercise
(28:39):
leadership, and mobilize andconnect with people to solve
tough problems, or to seizeexciting opportunities, They
have to agree that the problemexists, and we have to talk
about it.
So, this is not going to bevery, technique oriented, what
I'm giving you.
There are techniques thatunderpin what I'm about to
share.
But the basic rule is, step one,agree on what's true.
(29:08):
Then, step two, figure out whatto do.
So, align, or discuss, align,agree on what's true.
And then figure out what to do.
And you don't talk about what weshould do, unless people are in
line at what's true and theywant to make it better than it
(29:31):
is.
And that's a huge trap thatpeople fall into.
We avoid discussing, talkingabout the real problems or
opportunities.
And that's vital because theagreement that those exist and
the motivation to do it is aprecursor to progress.
Luis (29:50):
I hear that and I'm thinking of it in terms of like
just middle school word problemsin math, right?
You have your scenarios paintedthere.
Before you even start to solvethe problem, you should be
looking for what are the, whatare the givens?
what is actually true there?
and list them out and then go touse that to solve the problem.
Todd (30:13):
So, now we're entering a social system,
Luis (30:16):
right?
Todd (30:16):
Whereas you've gotta, something's bugging you and you
think there's a certain problem,the likelihood that it's bugging
other people to the degree thatit's bugging you, the likelihood
that other people even see itlike you do.
is low.
There might be some people, butusually the people you need the
help from are the people whodon't already agree it's a
problem.
So you can do all that workpersonally, but now you've got
(30:40):
to create a shared truth withother people.
You
got to get other people who are blind to this thing, who
want to avoid it, to actuallyagree that this is a problem.
And that is a huge step we stepover, because if the person ends
up disagreeing, if they'reupset, it gets into a conflict,
(31:00):
I hurt my relationship withthem, especially I do with my
boss, it creates a huge problem.
And now I'm putting my career atrisk.
So people feel constantly in atremendous honesty dilemma.
Is a, is a term that I quote,how do
Luis (31:12):
we know?
if it is a real problem foreverybody, a problem we've
identified and we're trying toenlist people to help us resolve
that problem?
how do we identify, how do weknow if it really is a problem
for everybody or if it's just aproblem to us?
Mm-Hmm,
Todd (31:25):
that's a great question.
Luis (31:27):
Thank you.
Todd (31:28):
That's a great question.
So lemme say, here's what youdon't do.
You don't decide thatunilaterally you like uni,
meaning one meaning by yourself.
You have to make thatdetermination jointly with other
people.
So then the question becomes,how do you do that?
(31:50):
Well, you have to do that by,articulating, the problem
statement and articulating thatin a.
And I'm being very intentionaland precise about my words now,
in a very clear, credible, andcompelling way.
(32:14):
And I would say those three C'sare vital.
So clear means you're actuallystating the problem clearly, so
that going back to your middleschool, or maybe even a fifth
grader, You can understand whatthe heck you're talking about,
okay?
You better be credible.
So you think this is a problem,that's your opinion, man.
(32:37):
That's wonderful.
But, what's your evidence thatthis thing actually exists?
What's your data?
You know, cause I can't learnanything from your opinion.
what are the things that we bothmight look at are objectively
true, and it's yourinterpretation of that that
leads you that this is aproblem, but you got to anchor
it in data and evidence,examples, whatever it is, even
(33:01):
that's not enough, do step oneand two, you're clear on your
point on the problem, you'vegiven the data and evidence to
back it up, people could go,okay, that exists.
Doesn't mean anybody wants to doanything about it just because
it exists.
Just because it's valid doesn'tmean it's valuable just because
it exists.
Doesn't mean we have to doanything about it.
There are lots of problems existthat aren't, there are lots of
issues that exist that aren't infact problems.
(33:23):
So that's why you have to becompelling.
You've got to clearly articulatewhy anybody should give a shit.
And you got to talk about likeinside your company, why should
we care given the things that wecollectively care about, the
performance of our business,serving this set of customers.
(33:44):
beating the competition,whatever your objectives are for
your business.
But you also got to, you got toconnect with people below the
neck, man, to their hearts.
Like what's the with them foryou?
And what's the downsides for youand us as an organization if we
don't address this problem?
And what are the upsides if wedo?
And then when you do that, thenat least you've done your piece
(34:06):
of it.
And then you've got to askpeople, then the last C is
you've got to be curious.
Then you got to ask people, sowhen you hear what my point of
view is on the problem, and mydata for it, and why I think
it's important, what do you allthink about that?
And it can't be a leadingquestion.
You got to be genuinely curiousabout what they have to say.
(34:29):
But if you don't do your bitfirst, what those now four C's,
right, clear, credible,convincing and curious.
Or, um, do not blame them for,uh, for not agreeing.
There is a problem that needs towork on.
And this is often where the gapsare in people's, their own
(34:50):
communication.
They're not clear on theproblem, right?
Corporate speak, man, kills allof us.
I think we have an opportunityto be more proactive.
What in God's name does thatmean?
That is not a problem statement.
What you mean is, we'reresponding way too late to data
(35:10):
we're getting on market trendsabout how we need to actually,
change our brand message.
Okay, that's a, that's a pointof view I can understand.
I can even barely understandthat, but I've heard somebody
say that, but it's certainly alot better than proactive,
right?
Cause nobody knows what youmean.
And then data, why do you saythat?
I think we need to be moreproactive.
What's my data?
(35:30):
because the teams are being tooreactive.
That doesn't help me at all.
Tell me what it is we'reactually doing or not doing that
in your mind amounts to notbeing proactive.
That's data and then compelling.
And if we don't do that, wemight miss an opportunity to
grow our business.
Come on, forget that corporatebullshit, man.
If we don't do it, we're goingto get our launch eat of our
(35:51):
competitors.
We're at 30 percent marketshare.
I predict nine months from now,we're down to 10 and at least 30
percent of this team is hittingthe streets.
That's what I'm worried about.
So you guys might disagree withme on it, but at least that's
what's in my heart to share withyou.
Curiosity.
Okay.
What do you think about allthat?
And then people may have Thatwill instigate a good reaction
(36:16):
for people, right?
Totally.
And they go, you know, Louis, Idisagree with you.
Great.
Seriously.
Great.
Why?
Luis (36:26):
Exactly.
Todd (36:27):
they may have different data.
They may have the same data anda different conclusion from it,
different point of view from it.
And now we're trying toreconcile our differing
perspectives on what's true.
But then after you do thatreconciliation, then we can
align on what's true.
And maybe it won't be.
What you thought was trueoriginally, but you talk to
(36:47):
other people and through thatdialogue and exchange with
others, you come to a betterunderstanding of what the real
issues are.
And then on that basis, we coulddo something about it.
But we first have to create somecommon ground.
Luis (37:02):
Yeah, that's I actually can go on for a long time on
this.
I can see so many, as you'resaying this, how this can be
applied in a real world for us.
But, I'm gonna stop it rightthere because this is actually a
pretty deep philosophicalconversation that I'd love to
continue maybe at another time.
So with that, I'd love to shiftto, 4, if you don't mind.
Todd (37:28):
Yeah.
Finally.
All right.
Luis (37:29):
All right.
So Todd, what, what is a hackthat you use?
This is just kind of like ashortcut you use every day to,
you know, cheat.
Todd (37:40):
I'll give you a conversational hack that I think
will be really useful to people.
Luis (37:43):
Thank you.
Todd (37:44):
So, and I, and I, I gave it, but not just before, but not
so much in steps.
So if you want to talk aboutsomething that's difficult to
talk about, say, say somethinglike, I want to share something
with you and I'd like to hearyour thoughts on it.
(38:04):
Set the frame for it.
And then three step process.
Say your point of view, providethe data and reasoning that led
you to that point of view, thenstep three, ask people what they
think.
I think X, I think X because Y,but Louie, what do you think
(38:26):
about that?
And if you hold on to thatstructure, particularly when
maybe you feel like youremotions are getting the best of
you, or you're really anxious.
About how somebody is going torespond.
If you do this three steps andyou put that frame on top of it,
you know, I want to share.
I'm going to share with yousomething and get your reactions
(38:47):
to it.
It will dramatically increasethe probability that people will
receive the provocative thing.
You're going to say.
1st of all, you've told them youwant their reactions to what you
have to say.
Yeah,
so you're already kind of getting guard down because it's
not like you're trying to makethem think what you think you're
(39:09):
telling people, I want to have aconversation about this.
And maybe I'm wrong.
I want to get your take on it,even all those, I want to share
with you something that, youknow, maybe I'm wrong about, but
I want to get your take on it.
And then boom, insert three steproutine.
And what's good about it is,then the person will be clear
what you're saying, your pointof view, they'll understand why
you think what you think, that'sstep two, and then you're
saying, but let's talk about it,you know, what do you think
(39:30):
about it?
And it turns it into acollaborative, it turns the
conversation from, I'm trying toconvince you of something, to,
I'm trying to collaborate withyou on figuring out what's true
and that's ultimately whatcandor is A collaborative search
for the truth on behalf ofmaking things better not about
(39:52):
me and getting your way Sothat's my hack my three step
hack.
Luis (39:56):
I love that.
You know, I think I I love howyou started off With softening
it up, but hey, I just want toshare something with you and get
your thoughts I think that'sreally good.
and I say that only because Iusually I tend to be pretty not
think it through and just saywhat i'm thinking sometimes that
you know and put it out thereRight from the beginning, but
when you soften it up with astatement like that first and
(40:18):
then you have some good Dataevidence behind it to support
that and then that will allow meto
Todd (40:24):
be Stronger in the in the next three steps Because, right.
Cause I don't want to soften themessage, but I'm trying to get
people's guards down and I'mtrying to keep them totally.
A mindset of, I'm not trying tosoften it, although I can see
that's the effect.
I'm trying to create a tonewhere I want this to be a
(40:44):
collaboration of figuring outwell, what's true.
Sure.
I'm share you what I think istrue, and I might be quite
provocative, It doesn't stop youfrom being quite provocative,
but it makes the provocativepill easier to swallow.
Luis (41:02):
Yeah.
Todd (41:02):
It's like, Hey, and I wanna share with you something
that.
I'm afraid it might rub you thewrong way, but I also might be
wrong about it.
So I just want to put it outthere.
You know, I think the way you'releading the team is actually
hurting your credibility withthe team and may cause some
people, to actually, leave inthe next six months.
(41:24):
And the reason I say that isI've heard three people who have
come to me who've said exactlythat to me, and they said within
the next week, they're going tobe actively putting their
resumes on the streets.
And
what they're complaining about is working around them and
going directly to their peopleversus channeling those things
(41:44):
for them.
And then they, Get caughtflatfoot in these conversations
where there are people askingabout things that they never
even understood and they lose alot of face with their folks.
And this has been happening now,at least according to them, for
at least six months andextremely frustrating.
Again, I'm not watching howyou're interacting with people,
but that's what I'm hearing.
(42:04):
You know, what's your reactionto that?
So, you can say some hardtruths, but you're creating an
environment where.
The truth potentially can stilllive and you could live to talk
about even more importantly.
I don't want any more
Luis (42:20):
Yeah, no, I know.
Okay, and I think you also haveto be really I think you're
right on man, and I think thatlike your last point about just
asking for thought I think it'sreally important to be genuine
when you're asking for feedbacktoo, right, because I think
sometimes people use that,again, maybe, I keep going back
to saying softening it up, but,and maybe that's the wrong word,
(42:42):
but people do use that to, and,and they aren't really curious.
They really were using thatmethodology to still almost lead
and prove their point, but theyaren't.
Todd (42:52):
prove their point and get what they want.
Luis (42:53):
Right,
Todd (42:55):
Sometimes you gotta force yourself.
You have to behave yourself intoa new way of being.
So sometimes I'll talk to myteam and I'll feel they made an
error.
And I'm upset about it, right?
And I'll say, listen, I thinkyou made it here.
I'm upset about it becausehere's what's happened.
But then I also say, I pushmyself to say it, but there
(43:17):
might be something that I did,or something that I'm missing
here that explains it.
So talk to me.
And then, I don't know if it'snine times out of 10, but enough
for it to be humiliating for methat I realized there was
something I was missing, youknow, and there was a piece of
the puzzle or I didn'tprioritize their work properly,
or I gave them too much work orthe way I set up the system
(43:40):
contribute to all this, and eventhough I'm convinced I'm right.
I forced myself to open myselfup to being wrong, even though I
don't want to.
Because
I'm not going to be subject to my emotions in this
thing.
I'm trying to be subject to mybigger commitments.
And so you don't have to weightyourself, you don't have to
(44:01):
weight to feel a certain way.
Am I really curious in thissituation, Louis?
I'm not curious, I think Ialready got it figured out.
But I'm committed to curiosity,and I'm going to force this.
Small self to be bigger thanthat.
Luis (44:16):
Yeah.
Well, Todd, how about afavorite?
This could be a book, movieactivity, you name it.
Todd (44:27):
favorite gosh.
you know, I really like, theLord of the Rings books.
It's a huge paper and, oh, Ishould tell everybody this, so I
have trouble sleeping.
So what I do is, I listened tolike a podcast at night and then
(44:47):
I put the timer on 20 minutesand I usually fall asleep
because it's like, it's almostlike mom or dad telling a
bedtime story.
And there's this thing onPatrion.
It's also on YouTube though.
And there's this amazing guy,but his podcast is called down
to sleep.
So he reads the books, all kindsof books, right?
This is just one of them.
He reads, he's like, this guyhas an amazing voice.
(45:09):
And there's like the sound oflight rainfall in the
background, and man, it justputs me out.
And you can set the timer alsoon Patreon so that, um, you
know, you can do that foryourself.
And it's better than video, soyou don't see light.
Light's bad for your sleeping,but if it's just sound, it's
pretty cool.
Now, and, you know, if you gotsomebody sleeping next to you,
(45:31):
you probably gotta put onelittle earphone in.
You know, maybe from when you'rewhere you call these earbud
things, but yeah, that's reallysomething I've liked a lot.
Luis (45:42):
Okay.
Down
Todd (45:42):
to sleep.
Luis (45:44):
Yeah.
If you ever really tired, justlisten to the wayfinder show.
That'll put you to sleep by
Todd (45:47):
the way.
Listen to this podcast onrepeat, get a particular
interview as much as possiblewhile boring to death talking
about conversations.
No, no.
That's very funny.
I love that.
Luis (45:58):
how about a piece of advice for your younger self?
Todd (46:01):
be less afraid.
Okay.
and have faith that, the bestthat can happen to you in your
life will be through expressingthe truth of what you think,
even if it doesn't feel that wayin the short term.
Luis (46:21):
I love that.
How about I'll let you choosefor this last one between a
limiting belief or a bigopportunity.
Todd (46:35):
Like what's, what's the question though?
What's my favorite limitingbelief?
Luis (46:38):
No, what is a limiting belief and like how do you
overcome it kind of thing?
Or what is a big opportunity outthere that either you're chasing
or you just see out there in theworld?
Todd (46:48):
I think one of the big limiting beliefs is they don't
care.
They don't care.
They
won't care because a lot of times I, you know, this whole
thing I do about leadership andit's about raising the real
issues with people around you inorder to make things better.
people ask me, yeah, but that'llwork great if they actually
already care and such adefeatist attitude.
(47:11):
I'm like, your job is to makethem care.
Your job is to think about whothese people are, what their
lives are like, what they careabout, what they find
frustrating, and then connectall of that with This issue that
(47:36):
you want to raise with them, butif you don't know what they care
about, and you don't find a wayto connect what you care about
with that, then of course theydon't care.
most people haven't put the workin to know that.
(47:57):
And it's, now sometimes it'strue.
These things are never one wayor the other.
But sometimes saying they won'tcare is a convenient way to take
yourself off the hook from doingthe work that's required to
connect with people, we'll say,start caring and leadership is
about mobilizing people to careabout things more than they do
(48:21):
and as much as they should,that's one.
Luis (48:25):
Yeah, no, that's a good one.
And I, yeah, it was, I didn'tunderstand it at first, but I
think you explained it reallywell.
And I would almost argue that abig opportunity there is, is
actually to connect with yourpeople so that you understand
what
Todd (48:40):
connect with people around you.
Luis (48:42):
Yeah.
Todd (48:43):
No, I'm trying to think there are lots of examples of
this, but you know, I mean, Iwas talking to a guy well over
10 years ago and he had a prettyrough leadership style.
and it was so rough that thepeople in this company used to
(49:04):
call him Darth Vader.
And he didn't do himself anyfavors because he used to wear
during the winter, this longblack leather coat.
I was like, you know, peoplealready call you Darth Vader.
He goes, this is justreinforcing the image.
He goes, I don't, I think it'squite funny.
Like, all right.
But then.
(49:24):
I got wind that he was going to,be pulled in front of a union
grievance committee for thethird time.
So the voice that I left withhim is, listen, I know you don't
care about your kind of morerough leadership style, but the
things I'm hearing right nowlead me to conclude that if you
don't, if you don't clean this,if you don't alter your
behavior, you're going to getpulled in front of union
(49:44):
grievance committee for thethird time.
And that means you will befired.
Let's talk about it.
I knew he cared about beingfired in this case.
at that moment, it was veryimportant for him to keep his
job.
So I spoke into his listening.
And the way I would deliver thatmessage to him versus somebody
else can vary depending uponwhat they care about.
(50:08):
if he cared about a certainproject getting to the finish
line, then I would haveconnected it to that.
If he cared about hiscredibility, then I would have
connected it to that.
People address things for theirown reasons.
You gotta, Simon Sinek, yougotta understand their why.
And then make that connection.
Luis (50:23):
That's right.
Well, Todd, if folks want toknow a little bit more about
you, maybe they'll look to workwith you for their
organizations.
How can they find you?
Todd (50:36):
Okay.
well, there's a great person onmy team.
Her name is Lace.
And they could just email LACE,and, so it's LACE, L A C E, at
Holzman Leadership.
So that's H O L Z M A NLeadership dot com.
And just put in the subjectline, I guess, say, Wayfinder,
(50:59):
Wayfinder, It's a great name, bythe way, and just signify what
you want.
If you want some free Canadaresources, which we've pulled
together for folks, that justsay, send me free candor stuff.
If you want to talk, just saythat in the subject line.
And they will go from there.
Luis (51:20):
Well, thank you so much, Todd.
This has been a reallyinteresting conversation.
you brought up some deep topicsthat, you know, I don't usually
get into on the show.
And, it's made me think maybe weneed to have an even longer
form, podcast for conversationslike these.
I'm more into
Todd (51:35):
these podcasts that I've had.
We got to the same point.
We're just having another call.
I'm happy to, when you, when youhave a slot and you have some
interest to, to keep it going.
Luis (51:46):
Thank you so much.
All right.
My
Todd (51:48):
pleasure.
Thank you.
Appreciate it.
And this was helpful toeverybody in the audience.
So good luck everyone.
Luis (51:54):
Thank you.
We hope you've enjoyed TheWayfinder Show.
If you got value from thisepisode, please take a few
seconds to leave us a 5 starrating and review.
This will allow us to help morepeople find their way to live
more authentic and excitinglives.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
Leadership is everybody's rightand everybody's responsibility
because, you know, everybodythat I know, clients, friends,
inside of their families, atwork, communities.
You know, churches, whatever,they are bothered by all kinds
(00:20):
of problems all the time thatthey see, or they're excited
about opportunities to makethings better, and they're
always being called upon.
All of us are always beingcalled upon every day.
So we're going to talk aboutthese things.
(00:47):
Welcome to The Wayfinder Showwith Luis Hernandez, where
guests discuss the why and howof making changes that led them
down a more authentic path orallow them to level up in some
area of their life.
Our goal is to dig deep andprovide not only knowledge, but
actionable advice to help youget from where you are to where
you want to be.
(01:08):
Come join us and find the way toyour dream life.
Welcome back to the wayfindershow.
I'm your host, Louie Hernandez,and we're here with Todd Holzman
today.
Todd founded Holzman leadershipafter decades in a career in
(01:30):
leadership development andorganizational consultant.
Holtzman Leadership is committedto sustainable behavior change
and measurable business impact.
Todd has taught world leaders atHarvard's Kennedy School of
Government, developed doctoralstudents at Columbia University,
trained tens of thousands ofleaders globally, and certified
(01:51):
hundreds of consultants andtrainers in his real work
process.
No matter whom he's workingwith, Or the problem he's
solving Todd's driving passionis to develop the difference
makers to be a force for good inthe world.
So with that, welcome to thewayfinder show, Todd.
Todd (02:09):
Thank you, Louie.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
Luis (02:11):
So Todd, you know, there's an age old question I've always
been wondering the answer to,and that is like, what makes a
good leader?
Todd (02:19):
So an age old question that somehow in the first two
minutes of this podcast, I'msupposed to finally enlighten
you on.
you know, I'd rather talk aboutwhat's good leadership because
We, that's what we need a lotmore of in the world, not just
people, to lead better frompositions of authority.
(02:43):
Because a lot of times we talkabout leaders, right?
We talk about, somebody gettingto the top position, having lots
of power and authority.
the folks that I was reallyinfluenced by, at the Kennedy
School of Government at Harvard,Ron Hypass and Dean Williams.
They make a distinction betweenleaders and leadership.
Because I imagine, you know,everybody who's listening here,
(03:07):
you've seen, you've probablyknown a lot of leaders that you
don't get much leadership from.
And you probably know a lot ofpeople who aren't technically
leaders, but you can count onthem to exercise leadership.
And so what I, and these,amazing gentlemen mean by
leadership, it's the ability tomobilize it, connect with people
(03:29):
to confront and deal with realproblems.
And opportunities to make thingsbetter.
And that means it's somethingthat you can do when you
actually are the leader, butperhaps even more importantly,
something that you can do,regardless of whether you have a
lot of authority and power thatyou can do, regardless of your
(03:50):
place in the hierarchy or yourrole in the organization.
I think thinking aboutleadership in this way.
So in this way, then, leadershipis everybody's right and
everybody's responsibility,because, you know, everybody
that I know, clients, friends,inside of their families, at
(04:11):
work, communities, you know,churches, whatever, they are
bothered by all kinds ofproblems all the time that they
see, or they're excited aboutopportunities to make things
better.
They're always being calledupon.
All of us are always beingcalled upon every day.
(04:34):
So are we going to talk aboutthese things?
Are we going to try to addressthem with our friends, our
colleagues, our managers, ourclients?
Or are we going to avoid them,you know, and work around them?
And so what makes a greatleader?
Somebody who exercisesleadership on a regular basis.
(04:55):
And that means that you're goingto talk to other people about
the real issues Andopportunities to make things
better that maybe they'reavoiding, they don't want to
deal with, they're blind to,they're struggling with.
And find a way to kind of alsostep up and engage.
Luis (05:15):
I've had lead, you know, now I, I have my own businesses,
but I've worked in corporateenvironments.
Right.
And one of them was, the BoyScouts of America.
I actually started myprofessional career there.
and you know, they, they'regreat for leadership
development, both in, with youthand with executives.
I mean, they have world classprograms, right?
And, but one of the things Iwould notice is there were
people within the organization,whether they be volunteers or
(05:38):
executives, right?
Who just can take a problem andrally everybody around it.
And it isn't one that might evenbe a priority of the
organization or, you know, atthe top, but that person, they
usually stand out very quickand, there's no ego, there's no,
you don't know what their resumelooks like, what their position
(05:58):
is, but people are there.
they have that it quality thatpeople come around to, and they
lead them to get these greatproblems solved.
Right?
and I've always looked at thosepeople as the real leaders.
Right?
and
Todd (06:12):
was it always, Somebody like the top dog who was doing
it or was it also sometimespeople at lower levels who would
even Engage the higher levelpeople in facing things.
Luis (06:23):
That's exactly right.
there are people at the highlevels, too Of course, I think
somewhere along the way youprobably were that person to get
there oftentimes I found thatthe people at the highest levels
Weren't now that isn't alwaysthe case.
There's Some leaders I've alwaysreally appreciated and respected
at very high levels who wereservant leaders.
they wanted to know everybody atthe different hierarchy, how
(06:45):
they operated and support themthey really made that servant
leadership, a priority ratherthan their vision for ego's
sake.
or to do it just because they'rethe ones in charge, does that
make sense?
Like,
Todd (06:59):
something that you said about servant leadership, the
guy who invented the term was aguy named Greenleaf, So what's
implicit in my definition ofleadership, which I said is
about mobilizing connected withpeople to confront and deal with
problems and opportunities tomake things better, is that
you're exercising leadership onbehalf of bringing more good
(07:22):
into the world.
So, in that sense, You aretrying to serve people in the
world and that has to be yourobjective.
It has to be your ultimate goal.
It's not about ambition, selfinterest, money, power, any of
that.
Now you may accrue those thingsas a result of doing that.
(07:44):
Well, I remember my firstmartial arts teacher, uh, this
amazing, um, started doingTaekwondo when I was, You know,
already in my late teens, I, my,when I went to Cornell undergrad
and uh, I found, uh, all these,this fight sites that do do it
(08:06):
competitively, uh, very, uh,very stressful.
And because somebody wants tohit you.
And, he used to say, and I alsofound the prospect of.
Winning and not losing verystressful.
he used to say, fight your bestfight and let the winning take
care of itself.
This was, Han Cho, amazinginstructor, amazing martial
(08:29):
artist.
And I think leadership is likethat.
It's.
You do your best to do good witha true heart for people and the
world or the organization thatyou're in or your customers,
however you want to slice it,and good will accrue to you as a
result.
(08:50):
and what I liked about, yourexample from the boy scouts, it
reminded me of somebody.
I've got this large globalfaculty, 13 people and growing.
Most of them, are not in thestates and the rest are
stateside they're great coachesleadership trainers sales
trainers and organizationdevelopment consultants.
I still do the work myself andi'm providing personal coaching
(09:15):
to, the North American CEO for awell known luxury brand we met
at the Harvard club the otherday, and he was telling me the
story about how he had givenpresentation.
I think it was to the entiresales force.
and so he's got first line setof manners, probably three
(09:35):
different levels in the roombelow him.
And then a week later, somebodyat the lowest level, like kind
of like sales rep level, booksome time with him.
And she says to him, I don'tlike the fact that you referred
to our brand as a sub brand.
(09:56):
And he said back to her, but Ireferred to all of them as a sub
brand.
Now I want to look at that as anexample of leadership on both
parts.
What was great about what shedid, so the CEO is what, three
levels above him, but he saidsomething that rubbed her wrong,
(10:17):
and also it was rubbing herwrong because it was rubbing her
whole group wrong.
So the last thing you want to doas a CEO is say something by
accident and demotivate yourentire sales force.
But she had the courage, and Ithink as a characteristic,
courage is certainly adimension, not the only
dimension, but it's certainly acrucial dimension around
(10:38):
leadership.
she had the courage to step upand have that conversation, and
had she not, he'd have beentotally in the dark, about how
his inadvertent words haddemotivated the entire sales
force.
So, God bless her for doingthat, and God bless him for how
he responded.
it's like, okay, that certainlywasn't my intention, but why
(10:59):
does it bother you that usethose terms?
Well, I think you think youthink that we're less than, and
why is that?
he was able to clean up thewhole thing.
He didn't make her wrong for it.
So it's more likely than notthat she and other people will
get the message about how openhe was.
He received the feedback withgrace.
He changed his communication.
He cleaned it up.
(11:20):
That's a leadership culture,man.
and both ends of the hierarchyhad to do their part, but it
started with somebody who hadthe least power and authority in
the organization speaking to themost powerful person in the
organization, and it tookcourage and her part, and it
started to have curiosity andcompassion on his part.
And those would be three goodC's courage, curiosity,
(11:44):
compassion.
And they talked about somethingthat actually really mattered.
And it led to a resolution thathad it not been discussed would
have festered and hurt salesperformance and hurt their
morale.
And then it hurts thempsychologically, right?
Cause they feel bad.
And then you bring it home.
(12:05):
So this is why candor becomes soimportant to leadership and is
probably the Amongst two orthree capabilities, arguably, I
think the most one of the topthree most important because we
can't make the world better ifwe can't talk about the issues.
That the addressing of whichwill make things better and this
(12:28):
is where people More often thannot really struggle.
Luis (12:32):
I've seen organizations where whether you know, one
level isn't allowed to talk tothe next right?
So just right in the same roomwith four levels of hierarchy
difference and That shows a lotof, what self confidence, I
think, as an organization,right.
That even allows that.
Todd (12:51):
And I will say, I don't think this is a, this is a
global organization.
I don't think, I don't know ifthis is true, but my sense is,
that dynamic, which I was justsharing with you, it's not like
it's a part of the cultureworldwide.
So, what's also true is there issomething called culture, right,
that often can cut across anentire country.
(13:14):
Sometimes the culture isspecific to a certain region, if
you're looking at a globalorganization, or a certain
territory, if you're looking atsmaller organizations.
But also, I think what the storysays is, if what I'm saying is
true, that the right leader canalso create an aberration, a
positive aberration to the restof the culture.
(13:34):
There is some choice that peoplehave in the matter, because we
are, through our actions, we'reeither colluding with the
culture as it is, or we'rehelping to move it in a healthy
space.
And we often see culture assomething out here that we have
no influence on.
But if you just go along withthe culture, you're silently
reinforcing it.
Now, if you push yourself toofar outside of the culture,
(13:55):
right?
Like, let's say there would havebeen some rule that you can't
talk to this guy, and she wouldhave somehow got some time with
him.
And then she would have tohandle that so well, so
competently, um, to not create aproblem for herself.
But maybe she would have to havea conversation with somebody
else who could then have theconversation with this person.
(14:19):
So it doesn't mean she wouldhave to not have it, it would
just mean she would have to bemuch smarter about how she, and
skillful about how sheapproaches it.
Luis (14:30):
Yeah, so, talking about this, topic of candor.
Yeah.
I think it is interesting, Probably the majority of people
who work for companies at somepoint feel a certain level of,
disenfranchisement, burnout,they're not happy with where
they work for one reason oranother.
And I think, a big underlyingeffect is that lack of being
(14:53):
able to be candid.
So with the powers that be Andwhy do you
Todd (14:57):
say it's, why do you frame it as empowered?
Luis (15:02):
Oh, interesting question.
I think
Todd (15:04):
we're coming
Luis (15:04):
to it.
I think that a lot of us, welook at where we work as an
employer.
We need that.
We need it.
we look at it as we need to workthere because that's how we feed
our family and, you know, itsatisfies our, it, it completes
our identity.
Right.
I mean, so much of our identityin America or in a lot of places
in the world are who we workfor.
(15:24):
All of those things, and we'reafraid of losing it, right?
we're afraid that, hey, if we goand we tell this person
something they don't want tohear, then we're going to lose
our jobs, or our jobs are goingto get even harder, you know?
And, and there are organizationswhere I think that, that could
be the case.
There's been examples of it, sotherefore people don't feel like
(15:45):
they can be candid.
Todd (15:47):
Okay, this is going to be, very interesting.
I have some hopefully usefulthings to say about that.
So the headline of everythingI'm about to say is something
like, it definitely has to dowith that.
You're right that it's partiallyabout empowerment, but probably
(16:10):
not as much as people think
and
feel.
I'll get into that.
first of all, to support yourassertion around the empowerment
thing, yes, people are, forunderstandable reasons, afraid.
Of saying what they thinkparticularly if it's they're
(16:30):
going to be disagreeing withsomeone Because there's a lot at
stake right their credibilitytheir credibility which can
affect their Bonuses theircareer advancement, you know All
of that And you can pay theultimate price of getting fired
and I have it we're doing justthat.
(16:51):
and a lot of, and a lot ofcompanies, big and small
struggle with, terms you'veheard before, like psychological
safety.
And creating an environmentwhere people can create speak up
cultures.
And the example I was giving youwas demonstrating just the
opposite.
(17:11):
There was, at least with thisleader, a lot of room to speak
up.
What people don't realize is ifthey were more skilled, they
would have a lot more room tospeak up without all these bad
(17:33):
things that they fear happening,that might happen from
happening.
So I'll give an example.
I'll give a couple of examples.
Well, Ken, before
Luis (17:40):
you go, by saying if they were more skilled,
Todd (17:44):
Yeah.
Do you
Luis (17:44):
mean at their jobs or at communicating?
Todd (17:47):
communicating.
So, and that might feel to youand your listeners like pretty
bold statement.
I think I have some good reasonsto say it, but also give an
example a second because one ofthe things that we do in our
work, whether we're coaching anindividual, a team training,
(18:11):
dozens of leaders through ourleadership programs, or
coaching, hundreds to thousandsof salespeople.
We do a lot of that in thepharma and it space about how to
have much more productiveconversations with their
customers and ways that deepenrelationships, but also move the
needle in terms of them growingtheir businesses.
And that, which means they oftenhave challenged.
There are customers in the waythey're thinking, and they're
scared because they don't wantto lose access.
(18:32):
They don't want to hurt therelationship, all of that.
And what they do is they alwaysbring to us a conversation that
they want to have that theythink if I can have it, well,
it'll make things better, butI'm afraid of having it because
it could make things worse
or
one that I had where I didn't get the results that I
wanted.
Right.
Despite my best intentions.
And we have a very cool way of,of a foolproof way of figuring
(18:56):
out how did it How do theyactually talk in those
situations?
We get access to very reliabledata on that, when you look at
the data, we've looked at wellover 30, 000 documented
conversations where peoplepredicted they wouldn't get the
results that they wanted oractually didn't.
In every one of those instances,not to say there isn't somebody
that they're dealing with that'sjust difficult, Close, stubborn,
(19:22):
whatever, that got their ownpersonal agenda.
But for all the people that sentus these examples, there is
always something that they'redoing or not doing, which is
preventing the conversation fromgoing a lot better.
Number one.
Number two, they don't realizethat.
Almost everybody's got a majorblind spot.
(19:43):
Um, when the conversations justdon't go well.
What is it about their approachthat's part of the problem?
So as an example, one of thethings that people have been,
have either, for whateverreason, think is a good idea is,
here's an old ditty, try to makethe person to believe this is
their idea.
(20:06):
Some conventional wisdom wouldteach you how to do that.
And the mechanism for doing thatis called the leading question.
Right?
So if my partner were listeningnow, she might say, Todd, do you
think it's a good idea to talkas much as you do on these
podcasts?
Right?
Now, if she were to say that tome, we know it's not a question.
(20:27):
It is a statement barelydisguised as a question.
But it's designed to get me tosee it so she doesn't have to
say it.
Well, the thing with theseleading questions is they
backfire almost all the time,they never work.
But when you are the person whois asking a leading question, it
doesn't get, you don't realizeyou're asking a leading
(20:47):
question, you actually thinkyou're making a point.
But you're actually not, you'retrying to disguise your point,
you're asking a form of aquestion.
So when it backfires on you, Alot of people think, you see,
they're not open to honesty.
The truth is though, you weren'thonest.
You asked a question and triedto pretend like it was a
question.
so people have got major blindspots around where they don't
(21:12):
get good responses to theircommunication.
What is it about them and theway they're communicating that's
contributing to that?
That's
a great,
my field has done a horrible idea, Louie of, of
really explaining it in a, in a.
In an easy to remember Usefulway what does good look like in
these important conversations?
(21:33):
We've done a horrible job ofthat I mean people still
advocate for can I curse in thispodcast?
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, the shit sandwich.
Yeah.
Okay, I'm going to say some goodstuff, then I'm going to say the
shit that I really think isimportant, and then I'm going to
end it with some, some goodstuff again.
First of all, it's phonymanipulative, and people see
(21:56):
through it.
Now, it's not even a shitsandwich anymore.
It's more like a shit focaccia,right?
Because we don't have the time.
So, so we gotta, we gottashorten it.
So, what happens is, this is whyI'm making the case for, I'm not
saying the environmentsmaximally encourage people to
express the truth to what theythink, but a lot of it is,
(22:18):
people just don't know what todo.
And the ideas that we have fedthem are often bad ideas.
That then when they do speak upthey get bad results and they go
you see the environment isn'topen to it And so this is where
you know, we've invested a lotof time Um, this is this has
(22:39):
been my singular obsession isfiguring out So what does good
look like in these situationsand how do we help people get
beyond their fears?
And so they can produce thiseffective Conversational
behavior.
Luis (22:52):
Yeah, man, that is a great point.
You know, i'm thinking i've beenguilty of the leading questions.
I mean Hey, I'm an interviewerhere on a podcast.
So that's kind of what I do.
Todd (23:01):
you haven't asked me one leading question at least, or at
least you're fooling me.
You ask curious questions.
Luis (23:06):
I am curious.
Yes.
You're not
Todd (23:08):
trying to make me think what you think.
You may be asking me provocativequestions to pull something out
of me.
Or maybe you'll ask a goodinterviewer a question in a
challenging way, but you'redoing it in order to get
whatever my truth is out of myhead through my mouth, not to
(23:29):
get your truth through my mouth.
That's the difference.
Luis (23:31):
Right.
So, you know, I think that youtouched on something, though,
with the leading questions as anexample.
I think, we often, when we'refrustrated and we're trying to
communicate something, we'llthink of a way that we think is
brilliant of communicatingsomething, right?
And that could be the leadingquestion, as an example, or it
could be another way, how wereframe something, what have
(23:52):
you.
But we usually only go one deep.
And if it doesn't work, wethink, okay, I've done
everything I can, but thatperson just doesn't get it.
and we don't look back on to howto, Reframe it to actually be
effective, right?
So with that in mind, I'mcurious, you know, at the risk
of you giving away, yourservices here.
What, what is the right way?
(24:13):
Like, how do, how do we actuallyget out?
Todd (24:17):
No, let me get there secondarily, because I want to
come back to this assertion thatI made.
It's always the question.
Is it me or the environment thatI'm working within that stopping
me?
Right.
For expressing myself moreeffectively around things that
matter.
(24:38):
the thing is, the universe isknocking on our door every day.
It bothers us about things.
And the question is, are wegoing to talk about it or not?
So, I remember there was thisguy, and you made a great point
that people become,disenfranchised.
Sometimes because of thisphenomenon, because yeah.
Why wouldn't you, if you feellike you can't express the truth
(25:00):
of what you think, it'sincredibly demoralizing and just
hang on because of survivalneeds.
It has a way, it can have a wayof degrading your soul at some
level, you know, and then ofcourse you're looking for the
exit and maybe you can findsomething that's closer to your
passion to have your ownbusiness and all of that.
It's great.
And I don't want to faultanybody for any of that.
(25:21):
Because.
You're probably a bunch of youraudience.
They're either entrepreneurs orbudding entrepreneurs, and maybe
they've known their whole lives,they should be doing something.
And they're only finding theircourage now.
And they took the safe route forunderstandable reasons, and now
they don't feel like they haveto, or they're just fed up.
So for those class of people, Imean, go forth and prosper, man.
(25:46):
But there are other people, butI also want people to have more
of a choice in the matter.
And an example I'll give you,about somebody who was
disaffected And then when theyapplied what we had taught them,
they stayed on the job.
So there was this guy at a,let's call it one of the
largest, telecommunication slashtechnology companies in the
(26:08):
world based not in Americaoverseas.
And they had hired this guy, Idon't know.
And he was a brilliant guy.
they finally got him on boardand after, six months in the
company, he was ready to quit.
It was like, this place is socomplicated.
It's so bureaucratic.
(26:28):
You can't get anything done.
I want to kill myself.
He comes to the workshop, and hebrings this case study, like we
have people write up about anexample where he couldn't get
somebody else.
in another department to helphim and his team solve some
problem, no matter what hetried.
And we looked at the way he wastrying.
No wonder why he failed, right?
(26:49):
Because he was falling into allkinds of traps, leading
questions, by the way, jumpingto action, like offering
solutions that before the guyeven agreed there was a problem,
as an example.
And we helped him see that, andthen we taught him some of the
things which we may talk aboutnow, about how to have a much
better conversation with thosepeople, and he started realizing
that in order to be moreeffective here, he was going to
(27:12):
have to make some majoradjustments in the way he
communicates with people, andonce he started doing that, he
started getting more done, andat least as far as I knew until
two years later, he was stillthere.
You know, and he was happier,and people were happier with
him.
so I guess that there's a ruleof thumb, I would say.
(27:34):
See, the problem with leavingquestions, or jumping to action,
right?
Hey, let me offer you a solutionto a problem that we haven't
even just talked about and youdon't even agree with, right?
So if I offer you a solution toa problem that you don't even
agree you have.
Or that you're not evenmotivated to solve what's going
to happen to my even if it's anawesome solution What's going to
happen?
This is called the leadingquestion, by the way, nothing
(27:55):
exactly, you know sales one onone, right?
You got to sell to a need Yougot to sell a problem or a pain.
You can't just promote yoursolution.
So the same thing in sales,right?
People have a problem.
They're not looking for asolution.
So the problem with leadingquestions and, and this other
trap of jumping to action, thatwas one of the biggest traps
that we see people fall into.
We'd look at all thisconversational data that we've
(28:17):
been very lucky to have accessto is there's no real discussion
on the problem to be solved andtherefore.
If you can't talk about theproblem, you can't agree that
the problem actually exists.
You can't create any motive, andyou can't create any motivation
to address it.
And if you want to solve aproblem, if you want to exercise
(28:39):
leadership, and mobilize andconnect with people to solve
tough problems, or to seizeexciting opportunities, They
have to agree that the problemexists, and we have to talk
about it.
So, this is not going to bevery, technique oriented, what
I'm giving you.
There are techniques thatunderpin what I'm about to
share.
But the basic rule is, step one,agree on what's true.
(29:08):
Then, step two, figure out whatto do.
So, align, or discuss, align,agree on what's true.
And then figure out what to do.
And you don't talk about what weshould do, unless people are in
line at what's true and theywant to make it better than it
(29:31):
is.
And that's a huge trap thatpeople fall into.
We avoid discussing, talkingabout the real problems or
opportunities.
And that's vital because theagreement that those exist and
the motivation to do it is aprecursor to progress.
Luis (29:50):
I hear that and I'm thinking of it in terms of like
just middle school word problemsin math, right?
You have your scenarios paintedthere.
Before you even start to solvethe problem, you should be
looking for what are the, whatare the givens?
what is actually true there?
and list them out and then go touse that to solve the problem.
Todd (30:13):
So, now we're entering a social system,
Luis (30:16):
right?
Todd (30:16):
Whereas you've gotta, something's bugging you and you
think there's a certain problem,the likelihood that it's bugging
other people to the degree thatit's bugging you, the likelihood
that other people even see itlike you do.
is low.
There might be some people, butusually the people you need the
help from are the people whodon't already agree it's a
problem.
So you can do all that workpersonally, but now you've got
(30:40):
to create a shared truth withother people.
You
got to get other people who are blind to this thing, who
want to avoid it, to actuallyagree that this is a problem.
And that is a huge step we stepover, because if the person ends
up disagreeing, if they'reupset, it gets into a conflict,
(31:00):
I hurt my relationship withthem, especially I do with my
boss, it creates a huge problem.
And now I'm putting my career atrisk.
So people feel constantly in atremendous honesty dilemma.
Is a, is a term that I quote,how do
Luis (31:12):
we know?
if it is a real problem foreverybody, a problem we've
identified and we're trying toenlist people to help us resolve
that problem?
how do we identify, how do weknow if it really is a problem
for everybody or if it's just aproblem to us?
Mm-Hmm,
Todd (31:25):
that's a great question.
Luis (31:27):
Thank you.
Todd (31:28):
That's a great question.
So lemme say, here's what youdon't do.
You don't decide thatunilaterally you like uni,
meaning one meaning by yourself.
You have to make thatdetermination jointly with other
people.
So then the question becomes,how do you do that?
(31:50):
Well, you have to do that by,articulating, the problem
statement and articulating thatin a.
And I'm being very intentionaland precise about my words now,
in a very clear, credible, andcompelling way.
(32:14):
And I would say those three C'sare vital.
So clear means you're actuallystating the problem clearly, so
that going back to your middleschool, or maybe even a fifth
grader, You can understand whatthe heck you're talking about,
okay?
You better be credible.
So you think this is a problem,that's your opinion, man.
(32:37):
That's wonderful.
But, what's your evidence thatthis thing actually exists?
What's your data?
You know, cause I can't learnanything from your opinion.
what are the things that we bothmight look at are objectively
true, and it's yourinterpretation of that that
leads you that this is aproblem, but you got to anchor
it in data and evidence,examples, whatever it is, even
(33:01):
that's not enough, do step oneand two, you're clear on your
point on the problem, you'vegiven the data and evidence to
back it up, people could go,okay, that exists.
Doesn't mean anybody wants to doanything about it just because
it exists.
Just because it's valid doesn'tmean it's valuable just because
it exists.
Doesn't mean we have to doanything about it.
There are lots of problems existthat aren't, there are lots of
issues that exist that aren't infact problems.
(33:23):
So that's why you have to becompelling.
You've got to clearly articulatewhy anybody should give a shit.
And you got to talk about likeinside your company, why should
we care given the things that wecollectively care about, the
performance of our business,serving this set of customers.
(33:44):
beating the competition,whatever your objectives are for
your business.
But you also got to, you got toconnect with people below the
neck, man, to their hearts.
Like what's the with them foryou?
And what's the downsides for youand us as an organization if we
don't address this problem?
And what are the upsides if wedo?
And then when you do that, thenat least you've done your piece
(34:06):
of it.
And then you've got to askpeople, then the last C is
you've got to be curious.
Then you got to ask people, sowhen you hear what my point of
view is on the problem, and mydata for it, and why I think
it's important, what do you allthink about that?
And it can't be a leadingquestion.
You got to be genuinely curiousabout what they have to say.
(34:29):
But if you don't do your bitfirst, what those now four C's,
right, clear, credible,convincing and curious.
Or, um, do not blame them for,uh, for not agreeing.
There is a problem that needs towork on.
And this is often where the gapsare in people's, their own
(34:50):
communication.
They're not clear on theproblem, right?
Corporate speak, man, kills allof us.
I think we have an opportunityto be more proactive.
What in God's name does thatmean?
That is not a problem statement.
What you mean is, we'reresponding way too late to data
(35:10):
we're getting on market trendsabout how we need to actually,
change our brand message.
Okay, that's a, that's a pointof view I can understand.
I can even barely understandthat, but I've heard somebody
say that, but it's certainly alot better than proactive,
right?
Cause nobody knows what youmean.
And then data, why do you saythat?
I think we need to be moreproactive.
What's my data?
(35:30):
because the teams are being tooreactive.
That doesn't help me at all.
Tell me what it is we'reactually doing or not doing that
in your mind amounts to notbeing proactive.
That's data and then compelling.
And if we don't do that, wemight miss an opportunity to
grow our business.
Come on, forget that corporatebullshit, man.
If we don't do it, we're goingto get our launch eat of our
(35:51):
competitors.
We're at 30 percent marketshare.
I predict nine months from now,we're down to 10 and at least 30
percent of this team is hittingthe streets.
That's what I'm worried about.
So you guys might disagree withme on it, but at least that's
what's in my heart to share withyou.
Curiosity.
Okay.
What do you think about allthat?
And then people may have Thatwill instigate a good reaction
(36:16):
for people, right?
Totally.
And they go, you know, Louis, Idisagree with you.
Great.
Seriously.
Great.
Why?
Luis (36:26):
Exactly.
Todd (36:27):
they may have different data.
They may have the same data anda different conclusion from it,
different point of view from it.
And now we're trying toreconcile our differing
perspectives on what's true.
But then after you do thatreconciliation, then we can
align on what's true.
And maybe it won't be.
What you thought was trueoriginally, but you talk to
(36:47):
other people and through thatdialogue and exchange with
others, you come to a betterunderstanding of what the real
issues are.
And then on that basis, we coulddo something about it.
But we first have to create somecommon ground.
Luis (37:02):
Yeah, that's I actually can go on for a long time on
this.
I can see so many, as you'resaying this, how this can be
applied in a real world for us.
But, I'm gonna stop it rightthere because this is actually a
pretty deep philosophicalconversation that I'd love to
continue maybe at another time.
So with that, I'd love to shiftto, 4, if you don't mind.
Todd (37:28):
Yeah.
Finally.
All right.
Luis (37:29):
All right.
So Todd, what, what is a hackthat you use?
This is just kind of like ashortcut you use every day to,
you know, cheat.
Todd (37:40):
I'll give you a conversational hack that I think
will be really useful to people.
Luis (37:43):
Thank you.
Todd (37:44):
So, and I, and I, I gave it, but not just before, but not
so much in steps.
So if you want to talk aboutsomething that's difficult to
talk about, say, say somethinglike, I want to share something
with you and I'd like to hearyour thoughts on it.
(38:04):
Set the frame for it.
And then three step process.
Say your point of view, providethe data and reasoning that led
you to that point of view, thenstep three, ask people what they
think.
I think X, I think X because Y,but Louie, what do you think
(38:26):
about that?
And if you hold on to thatstructure, particularly when
maybe you feel like youremotions are getting the best of
you, or you're really anxious.
About how somebody is going torespond.
If you do this three steps andyou put that frame on top of it,
you know, I want to share.
I'm going to share with yousomething and get your reactions
(38:47):
to it.
It will dramatically increasethe probability that people will
receive the provocative thing.
You're going to say.
1st of all, you've told them youwant their reactions to what you
have to say.
Yeah,
so you're already kind of getting guard down because it's
not like you're trying to makethem think what you think you're
(39:09):
telling people, I want to have aconversation about this.
And maybe I'm wrong.
I want to get your take on it,even all those, I want to share
with you something that, youknow, maybe I'm wrong about, but
I want to get your take on it.
And then boom, insert three steproutine.
And what's good about it is,then the person will be clear
what you're saying, your pointof view, they'll understand why
you think what you think, that'sstep two, and then you're
saying, but let's talk about it,you know, what do you think
(39:30):
about it?
And it turns it into acollaborative, it turns the
conversation from, I'm trying toconvince you of something, to,
I'm trying to collaborate withyou on figuring out what's true
and that's ultimately whatcandor is A collaborative search
for the truth on behalf ofmaking things better not about
(39:52):
me and getting your way Sothat's my hack my three step
hack.
Luis (39:56):
I love that.
You know, I think I I love howyou started off With softening
it up, but hey, I just want toshare something with you and get
your thoughts I think that'sreally good.
and I say that only because Iusually I tend to be pretty not
think it through and just saywhat i'm thinking sometimes that
you know and put it out thereRight from the beginning, but
when you soften it up with astatement like that first and
(40:18):
then you have some good Dataevidence behind it to support
that and then that will allow meto
Todd (40:24):
be Stronger in the in the next three steps Because, right.
Cause I don't want to soften themessage, but I'm trying to get
people's guards down and I'mtrying to keep them totally.
A mindset of, I'm not trying tosoften it, although I can see
that's the effect.
I'm trying to create a tonewhere I want this to be a
(40:44):
collaboration of figuring outwell, what's true.
Sure.
I'm share you what I think istrue, and I might be quite
provocative, It doesn't stop youfrom being quite provocative,
but it makes the provocativepill easier to swallow.
Luis (41:02):
Yeah.
Todd (41:02):
It's like, Hey, and I wanna share with you something
that.
I'm afraid it might rub you thewrong way, but I also might be
wrong about it.
So I just want to put it outthere.
You know, I think the way you'releading the team is actually
hurting your credibility withthe team and may cause some
people, to actually, leave inthe next six months.
(41:24):
And the reason I say that isI've heard three people who have
come to me who've said exactlythat to me, and they said within
the next week, they're going tobe actively putting their
resumes on the streets.
And
what they're complaining about is working around them and
going directly to their peopleversus channeling those things
(41:44):
for them.
And then they, Get caughtflatfoot in these conversations
where there are people askingabout things that they never
even understood and they lose alot of face with their folks.
And this has been happening now,at least according to them, for
at least six months andextremely frustrating.
Again, I'm not watching howyou're interacting with people,
but that's what I'm hearing.
(42:04):
You know, what's your reactionto that?
So, you can say some hardtruths, but you're creating an
environment where.
The truth potentially can stilllive and you could live to talk
about even more importantly.
I don't want any more
Luis (42:20):
Yeah, no, I know.
Okay, and I think you also haveto be really I think you're
right on man, and I think thatlike your last point about just
asking for thought I think it'sreally important to be genuine
when you're asking for feedbacktoo, right, because I think
sometimes people use that,again, maybe, I keep going back
to saying softening it up, but,and maybe that's the wrong word,
(42:42):
but people do use that to, and,and they aren't really curious.
They really were using thatmethodology to still almost lead
and prove their point, but theyaren't.
Todd (42:52):
prove their point and get what they want.
Luis (42:53):
Right,
Todd (42:55):
Sometimes you gotta force yourself.
You have to behave yourself intoa new way of being.
So sometimes I'll talk to myteam and I'll feel they made an
error.
And I'm upset about it, right?
And I'll say, listen, I thinkyou made it here.
I'm upset about it becausehere's what's happened.
But then I also say, I pushmyself to say it, but there
(43:17):
might be something that I did,or something that I'm missing
here that explains it.
So talk to me.
And then, I don't know if it'snine times out of 10, but enough
for it to be humiliating for methat I realized there was
something I was missing, youknow, and there was a piece of
the puzzle or I didn'tprioritize their work properly,
or I gave them too much work orthe way I set up the system
(43:40):
contribute to all this, and eventhough I'm convinced I'm right.
I forced myself to open myselfup to being wrong, even though I
don't want to.
Because
I'm not going to be subject to my emotions in this
thing.
I'm trying to be subject to mybigger commitments.
And so you don't have to weightyourself, you don't have to
(44:01):
weight to feel a certain way.
Am I really curious in thissituation, Louis?
I'm not curious, I think Ialready got it figured out.
But I'm committed to curiosity,and I'm going to force this.
Small self to be bigger thanthat.
Luis (44:16):
Yeah.
Well, Todd, how about afavorite?
This could be a book, movieactivity, you name it.
Todd (44:27):
favorite gosh.
you know, I really like, theLord of the Rings books.
It's a huge paper and, oh, Ishould tell everybody this, so I
have trouble sleeping.
So what I do is, I listened tolike a podcast at night and then
(44:47):
I put the timer on 20 minutesand I usually fall asleep
because it's like, it's almostlike mom or dad telling a
bedtime story.
And there's this thing onPatrion.
It's also on YouTube though.
And there's this amazing guy,but his podcast is called down
to sleep.
So he reads the books, all kindsof books, right?
This is just one of them.
He reads, he's like, this guyhas an amazing voice.
(45:09):
And there's like the sound oflight rainfall in the
background, and man, it justputs me out.
And you can set the timer alsoon Patreon so that, um, you
know, you can do that foryourself.
And it's better than video, soyou don't see light.
Light's bad for your sleeping,but if it's just sound, it's
pretty cool.
Now, and, you know, if you gotsomebody sleeping next to you,
(45:31):
you probably gotta put onelittle earphone in.
You know, maybe from when you'rewhere you call these earbud
things, but yeah, that's reallysomething I've liked a lot.
Luis (45:42):
Okay.
Down
Todd (45:42):
to sleep.
Luis (45:44):
Yeah.
If you ever really tired, justlisten to the wayfinder show.
That'll put you to sleep by
Todd (45:47):
the way.
Listen to this podcast onrepeat, get a particular
interview as much as possiblewhile boring to death talking
about conversations.
No, no.
That's very funny.
I love that.
Luis (45:58):
how about a piece of advice for your younger self?
Todd (46:01):
be less afraid.
Okay.
and have faith that, the bestthat can happen to you in your
life will be through expressingthe truth of what you think,
even if it doesn't feel that wayin the short term.
Luis (46:21):
I love that.
How about I'll let you choosefor this last one between a
limiting belief or a bigopportunity.
Todd (46:35):
Like what's, what's the question though?
What's my favorite limitingbelief?
Luis (46:38):
No, what is a limiting belief and like how do you
overcome it kind of thing?
Or what is a big opportunity outthere that either you're chasing
or you just see out there in theworld?
Todd (46:48):
I think one of the big limiting beliefs is they don't
care.
They don't care.
They
won't care because a lot of times I, you know, this whole
thing I do about leadership andit's about raising the real
issues with people around you inorder to make things better.
people ask me, yeah, but that'llwork great if they actually
already care and such adefeatist attitude.
(47:11):
I'm like, your job is to makethem care.
Your job is to think about whothese people are, what their
lives are like, what they careabout, what they find
frustrating, and then connectall of that with This issue that
(47:36):
you want to raise with them, butif you don't know what they care
about, and you don't find a wayto connect what you care about
with that, then of course theydon't care.
most people haven't put the workin to know that.
(47:57):
And it's, now sometimes it'strue.
These things are never one wayor the other.
But sometimes saying they won'tcare is a convenient way to take
yourself off the hook from doingthe work that's required to
connect with people, we'll say,start caring and leadership is
about mobilizing people to careabout things more than they do
(48:21):
and as much as they should,that's one.
Luis (48:25):
Yeah, no, that's a good one.
And I, yeah, it was, I didn'tunderstand it at first, but I
think you explained it reallywell.
And I would almost argue that abig opportunity there is, is
actually to connect with yourpeople so that you understand
what
Todd (48:40):
connect with people around you.
Luis (48:42):
Yeah.
Todd (48:43):
No, I'm trying to think there are lots of examples of
this, but you know, I mean, Iwas talking to a guy well over
10 years ago and he had a prettyrough leadership style.
and it was so rough that thepeople in this company used to
(49:04):
call him Darth Vader.
And he didn't do himself anyfavors because he used to wear
during the winter, this longblack leather coat.
I was like, you know, peoplealready call you Darth Vader.
He goes, this is justreinforcing the image.
He goes, I don't, I think it'squite funny.
Like, all right.
But then.
(49:24):
I got wind that he was going to,be pulled in front of a union
grievance committee for thethird time.
So the voice that I left withhim is, listen, I know you don't
care about your kind of morerough leadership style, but the
things I'm hearing right nowlead me to conclude that if you
don't, if you don't clean this,if you don't alter your
behavior, you're going to getpulled in front of union
(49:44):
grievance committee for thethird time.
And that means you will befired.
Let's talk about it.
I knew he cared about beingfired in this case.
at that moment, it was veryimportant for him to keep his
job.
So I spoke into his listening.
And the way I would deliver thatmessage to him versus somebody
else can vary depending uponwhat they care about.
(50:08):
if he cared about a certainproject getting to the finish
line, then I would haveconnected it to that.
If he cared about hiscredibility, then I would have
connected it to that.
People address things for theirown reasons.
You gotta, Simon Sinek, yougotta understand their why.
And then make that connection.
Luis (50:23):
That's right.
Well, Todd, if folks want toknow a little bit more about
you, maybe they'll look to workwith you for their
organizations.
How can they find you?
Todd (50:36):
Okay.
well, there's a great person onmy team.
Her name is Lace.
And they could just email LACE,and, so it's LACE, L A C E, at
Holzman Leadership.
So that's H O L Z M A NLeadership dot com.
And just put in the subjectline, I guess, say, Wayfinder,
(50:59):
Wayfinder, It's a great name, bythe way, and just signify what
you want.
If you want some free Canadaresources, which we've pulled
together for folks, that justsay, send me free candor stuff.
If you want to talk, just saythat in the subject line.
And they will go from there.
Luis (51:20):
Well, thank you so much, Todd.
This has been a reallyinteresting conversation.
you brought up some deep topicsthat, you know, I don't usually
get into on the show.
And, it's made me think maybe weneed to have an even longer
form, podcast for conversationslike these.
I'm more into
Todd (51:35):
these podcasts that I've had.
We got to the same point.
We're just having another call.
I'm happy to, when you, when youhave a slot and you have some
interest to, to keep it going.
Luis (51:46):
Thank you so much.
All right.
My
Todd (51:48):
pleasure.
Thank you.
Appreciate it.
And this was helpful toeverybody in the audience.
So good luck everyone.
Luis (51:54):
Thank you.
We hope you've enjoyed TheWayfinder Show.
If you got value from thisepisode, please take a few
seconds to leave us a 5 starrating and review.
This will allow us to help morepeople find their way to live
more authentic and excitinglives.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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