October 15, 2024 • 40 mins
The Wayfinder Show hosted by Luis Hernandez welcomes Cleo Childs, who discusses her spoken word poetry album 'Moving With', exploring her journey through grief after her mother's passing due to Alzheimer's. Cleo shares insights into understanding grief's uniqueness, the value of writing as a coping mechanism, and her family influence on poetry. The conversation delves into anticipatory grief and how to support others facing loss, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging grief and creating art as an expression of humanity and connection. The episode offers heartfelt advice for those supporting loved ones with Alzheimer's and showcases Cleo's personal experiences and poetry.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
My child's mind splintered whentold my angel mother was not
anointed.
My child's mind couldn'tcomprehend.
No angels or demons came toclaim her.
She was a woman completelyincomplete.
A tapestry of talents to wrapmyself in.
She didn't hang the moon.
She swung from it, softly on aswing crafted by woodland
(00:26):
fairies.
Whose kitsch houses she made asa child.
Georgia red clay flowed throughher veins, coursing when
catching Crick's salamandersunder the watchful eye of her
stick horse.
My sister and I fell asleep toher lullabies sung by her gentle
voice, rivalling chimes, rockingus as she swung above the world.
(00:54):
Welcome to The Wayfinder Showwith Luis Hernandez, where
guests discuss the why and howof making changes that led them
down a more authentic path orallow them to level up in some
area of their life.
Our goal is to dig deep andprovide not only knowledge, but
actionable advice to help youget from where you are to where
you want to be.
(01:16):
Come join us and find the way toyour dream life.
Welcome back to The WayfinderShow.
I'm your host, Louis Hernandez.
And today we have Miss CleoChilds with us.
Cleo just released her spokenword poetry album Moving With on
(01:41):
May 15th.
This album is a culmination oftwo and a half years of writing
about the journey of grief sheexperienced after losing her mom
to Alzheimer's when she was 28years old.
Her mother was an English majorin college and her grandmother,
who is also one of her editors,was an English teacher for 30
years, so she came by her griefprocessing tool of writing
(02:04):
poetry naturally.
With this spoken word poetryalbum, she hopes to show the
path her grief took from havingher mother, losing her mother,
and the peace and acceptance shefeels now.
She also hopes to give anauthentic and honest look at
what grief felt like so otherpeople going through grief don't
(02:24):
feel alone and feel community intheir grief.
Cleo, welcome to the Wayfindershow.
Hi, I'm happy to be here.
Yeah, thank you.
I really I was really excitedwhen I saw you come through
requesting to be in a Wayfindershow because this is a topic
that we don't usually talk aboutbut it's a very adult topic,
(02:45):
right?
We all have to deal with it andwe all have different ways of
dealing with it.
And I know for me personally,it's a very uncomfortable one.
Just grief is just somethingI've never, I've never learned
how to deal with, really.
And so I'm hoping that you'llhelp us.
Yeah.
Well, I think that there's no,there's no one way to deal with
(03:06):
it.
And I think too, is that thereare, it's so individual that
it's really, if anyone givesadvice, I would say to really
just take advice also with agrain of salt when it comes to
grief, because grief is soindividual.
But I think that the people thathave gone forward and kind of
work, who have moved with grief,which is what I am.
(03:29):
And I know many other peoplehave, you know, I think that we
can be able to try to do ourbest to help to ease the path of
other people that, you know,find themselves on the path of
grief, but grief is so specific.
It's so individual.
And I had no idea about that,but before I went through grief,
I had to deal with anticipatorygrief, which is, cause my, I
got, my mom got diagnosed and Iwas 21.
(03:50):
So I lost her over the course.
And then she passed awaysuddenly in 28.
So I had to deal with unexpectedgrief because she was supposed
to have two more years of lifeexpectancy.
But I think that, you know, whenyou're, when you're asking me
and to all the listeners is, youknow, how to deal with grief,
it's so individual.
And I think that there is no oneway.
There is no right way.
(04:11):
There's just a way in your way.
And I think that the people thathave kind of gone there first
can explain and tell about theirjourney I think the best you can
do is hope to ease the path ofsomeone that's on it because it
is so individual.
And once you're in your griefjourney, there's nothing anyone
could do to fix it, to make itbetter.
But I think that what people cando is really just to figure out
(04:32):
how to sit with you in yourgrief.
And to make it maybe to ease thepath that you're on.
But it's not one that anyone cantell you how preemptively how to
deal with it because it's soindividual to each person.
Yeah, you know, I think mydiscomfort mostly lies in how to
acknowledge grief for others,when you're going through it.
(04:53):
So I, I, I'm very good atdealing, I think, with my own
problems in general, but whenit's for other people, I feel
like, I want to express mysympathy.
However, I don't know how to doit, especially when it comes to
something like this in a waythat, comes off, without hurting
the other.
I think that one of the biggestmisconceptions is that you can
(05:14):
make it worse.
Acknowledging it is so importantbecause I think the discomfort
lies and when there'sdiscomfort, a lot of people go,
well, I don't know what to do,so I'm going to do nothing.
And then the person that'sgrieving goes, well, this huge
thing happened to me and no oneis acknowledging it.
And that makes people feelisolated and alone, or at least
(05:35):
it did for me, the greatestthing that someone ever did,
which is what I do to anyonethat's going through grief.
I say, I can't do anything tomake it better.
I am so sorry that this happenedto you.
I'm here to love and supportyou.
I send them food because when Iforgot, someone sent me food, I
forgot to eat.
The first thing when, when Iwent through grief, my
(05:57):
coworkers, my sweet coworker,Katie, she sent me a gift card
for food.
Because I forgot to eat, like itnever even occurred to me.
So I, since I want to get partto eat.
And then the nicest thing, twoof my friends did is they said,
anytime you want to talk aboutyour mom, I would love to learn
about who she was and who she isanytime I would talk about her,
because when you're goingthrough grief and there's this
(06:18):
level of discomfort around it.
It becomes almost like a tabootopic.
The thing and the person thatyou love that you just lost is
kind of off limits.
And that's the one person andthe thing that's always on your
mind, particularly in the earlystages of grief.
I can speak for myself.
And so to have two friends comeand just say, you know, anytime
you want to talk about her.
I'm happy to listen and happy tolearn and to sit with you and to
(06:40):
listen to you and hold space forme was one of the most valuable
things that could have that theygave me was just the gift of
holding space and sitting withme and allowing me to sit and to
feel and holding that space forme.
Wow.
That's so good.
Thank you.
Thank you.
As soon as you said that, itjust, a lot of light bulbs
started going off.
(07:01):
That's great because you, it'sjust always good to have that
tool.
You know, to be able to know howto, react in a certain situation
like that, because it can be souncomfortable.
Everyone.
And it's just, the thing is, isthat, you know, there's nothing
you can bring up.
It's always on someone's mind,particularly if it's new grief,
at least I can speak to me was,it was on my mind and everyone's
(07:23):
like, Oh, I don't want to bringit up.
It's already done.
I'm already thinking about whatI don't want is what kind of
happened or I think theinclination is, you know, to
feel like she's off limits topeople like I can't talk about
because people don't know whatto do.
When the number one thing I wantto do sometimes is to talk about
her because I'm missing her andTo have that space and just to
(07:45):
offer it right.
It's up for someone to take upon the offer, but to know that
your safe space that they can goto and to feel like you if you
have the capability and thecapacity to hold space for
someone to offer that to someoneand to truly mean it and to say,
you know, anytime you want totalk about them.
Just having that is like asounding board.
Was the most helpful thing to mebecause then two people I could
(08:09):
be able to say, Hey, I'm reallymissing mom.
Do you mind if I talk about her?
And they're like, yeah,absolutely.
I'd love to listen to her.
I'd love to learn about her.
That was the most, that was thenicest kind of thing.
So I always do that to peoplenow.
I love that.
Well, with that in mind, tell usabout your mother.
Oh, she's wonderful.
I have the most wonderful motherin the whole world.
Her name is Candace.
(08:30):
And my mother was an Englishmajor from the University of
Georgia.
She had fiery red hair and shewas very soft spoken.
And she's a very kind personwhen she passed, everyone said,
you know, Oh, your mother issuch a kind woman.
And I think that is like thenicest thing that you could ever
hope to hear about yourself orto hear about someone you love
(08:51):
when they pass as everyone saysthat she's so kind.
And I think that I never reallyunderstood my mother growing up.
I can't, because she was aperson that was soft spoken.
She was a peacekeeper.
She was, a person that reallywas.
More okay with being awallflower and allowing other
people to take up space andbeing able to kind of take a
(09:12):
backseat.
And so it was all these thingsthat I thought I was told were
not strength.
I was told that I kind of viewedher as weakness.
I viewed it as weakness a littlebit truthfully.
And as I've grown up, I realizedthat there is strength and
kindness and strength andgentleness and there's strength.
And being able to take a backseat and knowing when to speak,
you know, and not talk, youknow, she knew when to speak and
(09:34):
to say her bit, but she didn'tfeel the need to talk all the
time about it, and that took alevel of wisdom that I didn't
recognize growing up.
And so, you know, in the, one ofthe poems I say at the very end
is I wish I could tell you whatI know now.
I wish I could hear you forgiveme somehow, because, and to, you
know, forgive and to let herknow that I think I understand
her better, but I think it tookme being an adult really, and
(09:55):
growing up and also being ableto kind of grieve not having her
in the way that I'm used tohaving her that a, I really
began to understand my mother,in a way that I just didn't when
I had her, because, you know, Iwas 21 when she got diagnosed
and then it was downhill fromthere, but.
She's wonderful.
I'm so grateful for my mother.
I have the most wonderfulmother.
(10:18):
Is, is there something you wishyou could tell her now if she
was still alive, outside of whatyou said in your poem?
I'm thinking, I'm happy.
She only wanted my happiness.
Yeah.
(10:39):
And I would just tell her thatI'm happy.
I think as a parent, that'sprobably what we would want the
most for our kids, right?
So, I think she'd be verygrateful to hear that.
She always wanted my happiness,and I would just let her know
that I'm happy.
So, you know, if we can, uh, goa little deeper into this.
(11:01):
My, my mother, she lived with usfor some time, about five years
ago, and I had to put her in ahome.
She, she has dementia,borderline Alzheimer's,
beginning of Alzheimer's.
And, you know, I heard thissaying, when I started taking
care of my mother, which Ilearned to understand, you know,
when you have a parent or aloved one with Alzheimer's or
(11:25):
dementia that, you know, youlose them twice.
Mm hmm.
And, it's very true, right?
You're watching them, loseweight.
Their spirit, essentially, ofwho they are and who you love
over that time.
And then eventually you losethem physically as well.
Can you talk about that process,that grieving process?
(11:45):
Because it's an ongoing, longerprocess as well, right?
Oh, it's anticipatory grief.
It's a thing of, You are losing.
And so I'm writing a book toexpand on this, of this idea of
what I put in the album.
And so, but it is the process oflosing who they, who you knew
(12:05):
them to be and who you, theessential part of them.
And it's learning about who theyare now.
And then there's differentphases and stages that are
really difficult with goingthrough, at least with
Alzheimer's, we did it withours, but there are certain
stages.
Stages that seem to beuniversal, like there's a stage
where they get kind ofaggressive, which is my mother
(12:27):
was very, very peaceful.
So for her to be aggressive wasa really jarring thing, but
apparently it can be a commonsymptom that people go through I
think that, going through theanger, but I understand the
anger because it's the loss ofindependence that they have,
right.
That's something that'shappening to them.
So like when my mom, when we hadto take her car away, because
(12:49):
there wasn't a, she would beliable if she got into an
accident and she didn't want tohurt anyone.
My mother was the nicest,sweetest, kindest, most gentle
person in the whole world.
She wouldn't want to hurtanyone, but she was a liability
at this point.
So we had to take a car away.
That was an incredibly difficultsituation.
And, you know, I think that itis challenging and there is, and
(13:13):
all you can do, or all we coulddo, and all I would say is in an
uncertain situation with noroadmap, basically, because
everything's so individual, giveyourself grace because you are
doing the best that you can do.
(13:35):
And it is hard.
A, it is hard.
Acknowledge it's hard.
B, give yourself grace.
that you are doing the best thatyou can do in a hard situation
with someone that you love.
Everything about this is hard.
Nothing about this is easy.
And see, I would say, just enjoythem, learn how to just swallow
(13:56):
them.
That's what I did because I knewthat every day was going to be
the best day that was going tohave with her because it was
degenerative.
And I just swallowed my motherand I made memories that I
carried, but I made themintentionally because I knew
that those were the memoriesthat were going to carry me.
When I look back on my journeyof losing her over time, I know
(14:19):
that there's the hard, but Iknow that I'm so grateful that I
chose to intentionally createthe good.
And I would say, You know, findout ways to still have joy
together and also laugh becausesometimes things are funny, you
know, they're doing somethingand it's kind of funny and they
(14:41):
can laugh too, you know, we'reall humans.
And so I think that, you know,figure out how to swallow them,
still find the joy becausethere's still joy to be found
and, and just create thosememories so that you have good
ones too.
And that it's not all bad andlearn how to laugh when there's
something to laugh at.
(15:01):
Because there's still joy in thehuman experience.
There's still joy.
And that's what I would say.
Yeah.
You know, I'm tempted to share afunny story from when my mom was
with us.
You okay with that?
Of course, yeah, I have lots ofthem.
Yeah, so, you know when I firsttook her in again This is like
(15:21):
it's now been about seven yearsago when I first took her in I
didn't realize I didn'tunderstand The illness or her
limitations or I just stillremembered my mother had i'd
been away from my mother for 30years and I just saw her as this
powerful little woman, right?
She's little she's like fourfeet 10 you know four feet nine
maybe even and but she's just Imean, she's super intelligent,
(15:43):
kind, like you said, generous,helpful, just a strong, strong,
strong woman.
And so I just remember her thatway all the time, right?
Very capable.
So when I took her in, I waslike, I was still working and
I'm thinking, okay, I'll justprepare some food for her.
And, and, uh, and she can justwarm it up in a microwave and
eat when it's time for her.
Right.
And, so we prepare.
(16:04):
It was joyful, like we preparedall these meals and we put them
in mason jars, getting themready, you know, and I gave her
a couple of jobs because shefelt like she needed to work.
Right.
So one of them was, cleaning thedishes and the other one was
feeding the dog.
Right.
So I get home from work and I'mlooking, I'm like, huh, the
mason jars are all full.
I wonder what's wrong there.
(16:24):
And then I look at the dog foodand it was empty.
She confused the dog food withher food.
And then, you know, she doesn'tknow English.
She was Spanish.
She was like, kind of sad.
Like, yeah, I thought it tasteda little bland.
(16:47):
It was just so funny.
I hate to laugh at, you know, Ihaven't had had my mother dog
food, essentially.
But, you know, there's a funnystory that we all laugh at in
the family now.
I mean, there's still laughterand there's still life to be
had, you know, and I did it likemy mom, I used to give her
little tasks all the time.
And I think the other thing too,is that was really hard for me
(17:08):
at the beginning is to becomeokay with the idea that I could
be a nice lady to her.
And that would be okay with mebecause she didn't know who I
was at the end, but I realizedI'm a nice lady and she feel
safe with me and she showed, andI can show her love that way,
you know, and that's what also Iwould say is, you know, when you
(17:30):
get to the point where theydon't see it, when they don't
recognize you, see if you can,Find joy and being someone they
still feel safe with.
And they think that you're anice person to hang out with.
So I hung out with my mom allthe time.
She's like, you're a very nicelady.
And I was like, I am a nicelady.
You know, I didn't be like, youraised me to be a nice lady, you
know, but she's like, you know,you're really nice.
(17:54):
And then she just kind of likegotten like this loop where
she's like, you're a nice lady.
And I was like, it didn't makeevery like on the 20th time of
being told I'm a nice lady.
I'll be honest.
It was still as nice as thefirst time of being told that I
was a nice lady.
You know?
And I was like, yeah.
At some point it became like a,in a empowerment speech where
she's like, you're a nice lady.
And I'm like, I am a nice lady.
(18:14):
Thank you.
I love it.
Cleo, so let's talk a little bitabout your poetry and how you
use that.
First of all, backing up alittle bit, did you have any
background already?
I know you said your mother andyour grandmother, had experience
in poetry and Englishliterature, but how about
yourself?
Like, what was your backgroundlike first?
I'm a darn good research paperwriter.
(18:35):
So I went to school formarketing.
I was a marketer for 10 years.
And I, grandma, Ooh, she putwork into me.
So she made me a good, reallygood reading English paper or
English writer or researchpaper, English writer.
And so I went through and I canwrite a darn good research
paper, but I never wrotecreatively.
(18:56):
And then when I.
After losing mom, maybe about amonth later, I heard about two
lines, the middle of the nightin my head.
And I, you know, I triedeverything and I was just like,
you know, fudge it.
We'll just try this.
So I went downstairs in themiddle of the night at 2 AM and
I wrote down the two lines thatI heard in my head and they made
(19:16):
it feel a little bit better.
And so I just kept writingbecause it made it feel a little
bit better.
It didn't make it hurt less.
It just made it feel a littlebit better.
So, and then I basically.
Creep for, you know, for aboutsix months, went into deep
isolation, and then I justwrote.
For my own sake, I neverintended for it to be public,
(19:37):
but I wrote as a way to be ableto process what was happening in
my body because I made theconscious decision to feel
everything.
I decided consciously that Iwasn't going to shut myself off
from any of the emotions.
I think that.
A lot of the emotion.
I think that we think aboutemotions somewhat differently or
wrongly potentially, or at leastI did.
(19:58):
I thought that anger and sadnessand bitterness and all these
things were really were wrongand I shouldn't feel them and I
should feel bad for feelingthem.
But what I realized is that if Ididn't feel anger, bitterness,
sad, Mad, you know, all thesethings that I wouldn't feel joy
and I wouldn't feel happinessand I wouldn't feel love for my
(20:19):
mom and my dog and my husband.
And I wouldn't feel friendshipand camaraderie by going and
shutting myself off from motionsthat I thought were, deemed bad.
I was also shutting myself offfrom emotions that were deemed
good.
So when I was writing, I wrotefor The sole purpose of being
(20:39):
able to take what was happeninginside my body and put it
outside of my body so I couldlook at it, and I could do
something productive with mytime and constructive, and it
would make it hurt a little bitless, and I could you know when
I was looking and doing all thepoetry not all of it is.
All about doom and gloom and mebeing in grief and, you know,
fudge this life and all thisstuff.
You know, there's a lot of onesthat are also about gratitude
(21:01):
and I'm happy today and my, my,I love my husband and I love my
dog.
So it's kind of by experiencingall of the emotions and not
really putting judgment to themsaying that they're good or bad.
I was able to, you know,experience quote unquote, good
emotions.
And I just was able to feeleverything and then process it.
And then I fear experience,which I have now is peace and
(21:23):
acceptance about my mother'sdeath, but that took about six
months.
It took about, and I'm not even,you know, and I'm still moving
with my grief for my mom.
I'll probably never get over itbecause I love her so much.
And I wish that she was here andI wish that I could hold her,
but I can't.
But I can be able to still carryher with me and experience her.
By being kind to myself and toothers, I am able to connect
(21:43):
with my mom.
And so I went and stoppedwriting after I ran into the
world about six months after mymom passed.
And then about two years later,I got inspired by songwriting.
And so I picked up writingagain.
And I went to a mentorshipsession with an amazing
producer, Jim Riley.
And I was just like, here's somestuff I wrote.
Can you help me?
(22:03):
And he's like, you're amazing.
And I was like, what?
And I was like, I had no idea.
Cause I wrote it for myself.
And then he's like, I'll produceyou.
And I was like, what?
Anyway, so then I found amazingeditors.
I have Sheree and Mary and mygrandmother, who was 93.
She's one of my editors, mymaternal grandmother.
And we put together this albumand I released it with the hope
that I felt so isolated in mygrief.
(22:26):
That if someone else could writeabout their honest experience,
that maybe it won't make someonefeel as isolated when they're
going through something as Ifelt.
And I feel like that is the onlyhope that I have with the album,
is that.
Someone can know that I sit withthem metaphorically in the
album.
And I say, I get it.
(22:48):
Someone gets it.
And I have peace and acceptanceand maybe you can too.
Wow.
Did, um, you, you chose poetryas your medium, right?
Um, did you, did you look at,did you consider other mediums
like poetry?
(23:08):
Like you said songwriting orshort stories or anything like
that or did poetry just comenaturally to you It was the only
way that it made sense.
Okay, it was it chose me I feellike I tried writing other ways
but it's the only way that madesense to me was writing and
poetry and I think that thecreation of Art.
(23:31):
I, I, cause I deem it more artthan poetry.
Cause I don't want to put alabel on it really.
But I thought about recently,you know, I was like, why, what
is the purpose of art?
Cause I'm this person thatthinks about what the purpose of
art is for about two days.
Right.
Cause that's who I am as aperson.
I thought about it.
And I realized that what I, whatmy, my definition is, is that by
connecting and creating from myown humanness and I own
(23:54):
humanity, And putting it outthere that someone can maybe
consume it and then be connectedto their humanists and their own
humanity.
And that is the purpose of art.
And that's what I, created itwith connecting to my own
humanists, my own humanity.
And I think that maybe, someonecan, if they consume it or
listen to it, that, or read it,that maybe that can connect to
(24:16):
them, the humanists andhumanity.
And so I think that that's thepurpose of art and that's what I
hope that releasing the albumwill allow people to do.
And did you go and perform it aswell?
Just released an album.
And yeah, I wrote it.
I got it edited.
I felt really good.
And then I released it with thehope that someone else may be
(24:39):
able to not feel so alone.
By talking about grief openlyand honestly and about someone's
grief journey and about all thefacets of it, because it's so
multifaceted.
It's not, you know, as I say Ithought that grief was like
shade, like the one big shade ofgray.
I'm grieving.
It's not.
For me, at least, it was likesome days I'm gray.
Some days I'm light gray.
Some days I'm not as light gray.
(25:00):
Some days I'm blue.
Some days I'm red.
Some days I don't know whatcolor I am.
Some days I'm not a color.
You know, it's to, to, it's socomplex.
The emotions into it are socomplex that I just.
Released the album.
I did not, I haven't, you know,I haven't performed it, but I
(25:22):
released it because I didn'tunderstand that it could be so
complex because no one told me.
And then I felt, and then I usedart to be able to understand it
and to try to explain thecomplexity that was going on in
my body.
Gotcha.
So I didn't prepare you forthis, but I'm hoping you can
(25:45):
maybe share a piece with us.
And then we can talk about it.
Yeah, let's see.
I will share who my mother wasin poetry, if that's alright.
My child's mind splintered whentold my angel mother was not
(26:05):
anointed.
My child's mind couldn'tcomprehend.
No angels or demons came toclaim her.
She was a woman completelyincomplete.
A tapestry of talents to wrapmyself in.
She didn't hang the moon.
She swung from it.
Softly on a swing crafted bywoodland fairies.
(26:26):
Whose kitch house as she made asa child, Georgia red clay flowed
through her veins, coursing whencatching crick salamanders under
the watchful eye of her stickhorse.
My sister and I fell asleep toher lullabies sung by her gentle
voice, rivaling chimes, rockingus as she swung above the world.
Wow.
Sounds, like you went back intime to who Cleo remembers his
(26:49):
mother as a child.
Yeah, that's my mother.
Georgia red clay flowed throughher veins.
And so whenever I go and Iinscribe, I found like this
little Georgia book.
And so I will send it wheneverone of my friends has a baby or
something, I, inscribe it.
And I say, may Georgia red clayflow through your veins.
(27:12):
You know, with love, CleoChilds, as a way to kind of
honor my mom and say, Georgiared clay flow through her veins,
it flows through mine.
And I hope it can flow throughyours.
Beautiful.
Thank you.
Well, Cleo, is, before we moveon to our world famous Wayfinder
(27:33):
4, I'm wondering, is thereanything else that you wanted to
share about this?
I would just share, it's allabout love.
It's all about love.
And I would just say in thereally hard times, cause there
(27:54):
are hard times that I look backon it and I just still know my
mother loved me when everythingwas really hard and maybe she
didn't know I was in, she justknew I was a nice lady.
She loved me and I loved her.
And I think that, you know, Iwould, I'll do one more, which
(28:15):
is that it's called holding yourhand.
I wrote it for someone and Iknew about it.
And they came to me and theysaid, you know, my, my husband
is dying of, of lung cancer.
And they asked me aboutanticipatory grief and they
said, what was it like to loseher?
And this is what I wrote for,for them, which is here, holding
(28:36):
your hand.
I press it gently into my skin,trying to absorb you into me to
a place where my good health canbe a respite for you.
Feeling your hand in mine, Imake a mold of it in my memory,
track every crevice, mark everyline.
I pray to become a black hole, ablack hole to suck you in, to
(28:56):
keep you safe, warm, alive.
But I am not a black hole, andyou'd land past me sucking you
in.
So I hold your hand, radiatinglove to you, as you radiate love
to me.
Here, holding your hand, we arewhole.
So I would just say in thosehard times, they love you, and
(29:17):
you love them.
And I think that's a wonderfulthing.
And I forgot it sometimes, so Iwould just remind you about it.
And it's all about love.
Thank you.
Especially, I think that'sreally helpful to remember
during that phase after ourloved one has passed the first
time if they have Alzheimer's,right?
(29:38):
It's really hard to recognizethat sometimes, right?
I remember I forgot it a lot andI'm reminding myself and I wish,
you know, I wish I could go backand remind myself of that, but
that's what I would say is Iwould just remind myself that
it's all about love.
Thank you.
Well, clear on that point.
(29:59):
Let's, if you could, we cantransition a little bit to our
world famous Wayfinder 4.
Woohoo! Yeah, you ready?
Yeah.
All right, give us a hack.
If you have someone that's goingthrough something, give them
like a going through the earlystages of Alzheimer's or even
late, find little tiny tasksthat they can do.
(30:21):
That you could be able to dothat.
They can be able to help youwith, because it matters for,
independency and feeling ofagencies.
For example, at Thanksgiving, Iwould just ask my mom, Hey, can
you hand me that thing overthere?
The tinfoil, for example, and Icould easily get the tinfoil,
but my mom loved to be able tohelp me.
And so I gave her the smallopportunities doing things that
(30:42):
she could do to be able to helpme and feel like she still had
agency and independence and shewas contributing.
So I would say, try to findthose tiny little things that
they can be able to help youwith and allow them to help you
and be just, you know, and allowthem to share that with you.
I love that.
Yeah, I mentioned, you know,with my mom, first thing we did
(31:02):
was give her a job again, whichat first was, and I mentioned
how short she was.
I had to build a step platform.
You couldn't just use a regularstep stool because she also had
Parkinson's.
So she had really bad balance.
And so I built a, with just somescrap wood, a big platform.
So she couldn't just fill up.
Although she did end up stilltrying to come down that step
(31:24):
and that was too much.
And so I had to take that jobaway, which was very difficult
for her.
You know, but you can alwaysfind new jobs, you know, yeah,
that's the good news about jobs.
It was really cute Absolutelythe pride that she took in that
it was just adorable to watchright but yeah, okay How about a
favorite?
(31:45):
I love cozy murder mysteries nowthese seem like things that
should not go together It's aVenn diagram that I'm very
pleased with.
So it is like, so my mom lovedAgatha Christie and she got me
into Agatha Christie.
She loved Nancy Drew.
She loved a good murder mystery.
And so I love murder mysteries,but I found some, cause like one
(32:05):
of them is called, It is, it'sthe magical bookshop series and
it's uses the works of EmilyDickinson to help solve murders.
And I'm like, tell me more,please.
So I'm waiting, I read them atdifferent seasons.
So the next one set in Octoberfor Halloween.
So wait until October to readit.
And they're using the works ofEdgar Allen Poe to help solve
(32:28):
mysteries.
If that doesn't make you excitedabout reading, I don't know what
will like, okay, that's great.
I don't know what to say aboutthat.
That sounds great.
I know it is great.
It's fantastic.
So I read like two hours everymorning.
I get up and I read from sevento nine, my cozy murder
mysteries, and I got a stack ofthem and they just make me
(32:49):
happy.
You know?
Yeah.
What about a piece of advice foryour younger self?
It's all about love.
That's what I would say.
Sometimes I forgot that.
And I would just say, you know,just keep loving her.
And she loves you.
And you love her.
And that makes it really, allthe hard times a little less
(33:11):
hard.
And I forgot that.
And that made the hard timesharder.
And I think that I would have,if I had remembered that, then
the hard times would have been alittle bit easier.
How about a, either you canchoose either a limiting belief
or a big opportunity limitingbelief.
I thought about this.
Okay, because I, I preparethings.
I'm gonna prepare.
(33:31):
I love it.
I'm not survivalist prepare.
Absolutely.
I tell my husband to just leaveme'cause I'm gonna slow him down
and then apocalypse situationjust like, but when it comes to
like preparing thoughts, I'mpretty good at it.
So I would say the blendingbleep is I can't make art.
And I'm not an artist because mybelief is that art is art.
(33:54):
Use it's creative expressionthat is created from connecting
to human, your humanity and yourhumanness in any way.
I think that's true.
It's like, and then releasing itand then someone else can
consume it and then getconnected to their humanity and
their humanness.
I think that we all have thecapability to create art.
I think that it just depends onthe mode that you want to do.
(34:16):
And I would say, find the modethat sparks joy or the make that
hurt a little bit less.
For example, me doing woodcarving makes it hurt a lot more
because I get frustrated, butmaybe doing writing makes it
hurt a little bit less.
And I would just say, you know,you, I think everyone has the
capability to be an artist.
I think everyone is an artist tobegin with.
I think everyone's medium isdifferent, but they're all equal
(34:38):
in their measures.
And I think creating art andusing creative expression and
doing it and bringing in yourhumanity allows us.
To connect to others andremember that we're not alone in
the human experience And we aremore than alone than alike or
more alone than different No, weare more alike than different
and we are not alone And I thinkthat's a wonderful thing to
(34:59):
remember and art helps us dothat.
Yeah, I agree.
And I also think our The conceptof art, right?
How we define it can be muchmore than just what we think of
as the creative stuff like yousaid wood carving or poetry or
what have you we had a guest,Charles Penoza, I think it was
episode 97.
He wrote a book about leadershipas a masterpiece.
(35:22):
What he did is he looked atbusinesses and business problems
and how they were resolvedthrough the humanities and
classic works of art.
And he looked, you know, it justmade you understand.
I think like, a lot of theworld's great business leaders
are actually, you know, they'renot operators, they're artists.
They're looking at theirbusiness as an art and how to
grow it.
So I think we can, it can applyin a much more broad fashion
(35:46):
than just what we normally thinkof as art.
I think we are creators.
I believe that humans arecreators and what we have the
capability to create is art.
And I think art is anything thatconnects us, that we create,
that connects us to ourhumanness and our humanity.
By putting it out there, itconnects other people to their
humanness and their humanity,and then I think that art helps
(36:07):
to prove that we're not alone inthe human experience.
And I think that that reallyhelps to, it brings me hope and
it brings me joy.
And I think art is justcreation.
Yeah.
Well put.
Thanks.
I told you, I thought about it.
I'm not this eloquent when Ihaven't thought about things.
(36:27):
So I try to think about itbeforehand.
Yeah.
And you're also super wellprepared.
so Cleo, this has been a realjoy.
If anybody else wants to, Getahold of your album, your
upcoming book, just learn moreabout you.
Where should we point them to?
Yeah, I have a website calledcleo childs.
com.
Try to make it simple.
So that's C L E O child.
(36:49):
C H I L D S.
I put the album out oneverything, all the places I
could find to put it out on.
I did cause I didn't want to,you know, put it behind a wall
where people who may relate toit.
Couldn't get to it.
So it's out there in the ether.
I'm currently editing the book,so don't go looking for it yet.
(37:11):
Give me a little bit of time,but I'm really excited about it.
And it's really just helping toexpand the idea of the journey
so that people can be able torelate more maybe, or feel not
so alone and it's different,experiences that I went through
that really I would have to paredown for the album sake.
And then, Yeah, that's prettymuch me.
And I'm just, you know, gratefuland thankful.
(37:33):
And thank you so much for havingme.
Yeah, thank you for being here.
Just as a reminder, the title ofyour album is moving with
correct?
Yes.
Because as I said, there's nomoving on.
There's just moving with Yeah, Ilove that.
So look up moving with anywherein in the ether, as you said, by
Cleo Childs.
And do you have a title for yourupcoming book yet?
(37:56):
Currently we're working onmoving with the expanded
edition, but I think that'sprobably going to change because
it's called moving with book.
So I think that we have, we havean opportunity here to maybe
rethink it, but, um, it will beon my website whenever, you
know, I release it, but it's inthe editing process right now,
but I'm really pleased with it.
(38:17):
Awesome.
Well, Cleo, thank you so muchfor being here.
Thank you for, you know, sharingyour experience with us, your
art with us.
And personally, I'm mostgrateful for you sharing the
tool, of something I, clearly Iget uncomfortable with it, which
is just how to express my, youknow, sympathy for grief with
others.
And, that's something I'll, I'lltake with me hopefully for the
(38:38):
rest of my life.
So I'm, I'm really grateful.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
I'm glad that, it resonated withyou and, please feel free to use
it and pass it along.
Yeah, we'll do.
Thank you, Cleo We hope you'veenjoyed The Wayfinder Show.
If you got value from thisepisode, please take a few
seconds to leave us a 5 starrating and review.
(38:59):
This will allow us to help morepeople find their way to live
more authentic and excitinglives.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
My child's mind splintered whentold my angel mother was not
anointed.
My child's mind couldn'tcomprehend.
No angels or demons came toclaim her.
She was a woman completelyincomplete.
A tapestry of talents to wrapmyself in.
She didn't hang the moon.
She swung from it, softly on aswing crafted by woodland
(00:26):
fairies.
Whose kitsch houses she made asa child.
Georgia red clay flowed throughher veins, coursing when
catching Crick's salamandersunder the watchful eye of her
stick horse.
My sister and I fell asleep toher lullabies sung by her gentle
voice, rivalling chimes, rockingus as she swung above the world.
(00:54):
Welcome to The Wayfinder Showwith Luis Hernandez, where
guests discuss the why and howof making changes that led them
down a more authentic path orallow them to level up in some
area of their life.
Our goal is to dig deep andprovide not only knowledge, but
actionable advice to help youget from where you are to where
you want to be.
(01:16):
Come join us and find the way toyour dream life.
Welcome back to The WayfinderShow.
I'm your host, Louis Hernandez.
And today we have Miss CleoChilds with us.
Cleo just released her spokenword poetry album Moving With on
(01:41):
May 15th.
This album is a culmination oftwo and a half years of writing
about the journey of grief sheexperienced after losing her mom
to Alzheimer's when she was 28years old.
Her mother was an English majorin college and her grandmother,
who is also one of her editors,was an English teacher for 30
years, so she came by her griefprocessing tool of writing
(02:04):
poetry naturally.
With this spoken word poetryalbum, she hopes to show the
path her grief took from havingher mother, losing her mother,
and the peace and acceptance shefeels now.
She also hopes to give anauthentic and honest look at
what grief felt like so otherpeople going through grief don't
(02:24):
feel alone and feel community intheir grief.
Cleo, welcome to the Wayfindershow.
Hi, I'm happy to be here.
Yeah, thank you.
I really I was really excitedwhen I saw you come through
requesting to be in a Wayfindershow because this is a topic
that we don't usually talk aboutbut it's a very adult topic,
(02:45):
right?
We all have to deal with it andwe all have different ways of
dealing with it.
And I know for me personally,it's a very uncomfortable one.
Just grief is just somethingI've never, I've never learned
how to deal with, really.
And so I'm hoping that you'llhelp us.
Yeah.
Well, I think that there's no,there's no one way to deal with
(03:06):
it.
And I think too, is that thereare, it's so individual that
it's really, if anyone givesadvice, I would say to really
just take advice also with agrain of salt when it comes to
grief, because grief is soindividual.
But I think that the people thathave gone forward and kind of
work, who have moved with grief,which is what I am.
(03:29):
And I know many other peoplehave, you know, I think that we
can be able to try to do ourbest to help to ease the path of
other people that, you know,find themselves on the path of
grief, but grief is so specific.
It's so individual.
And I had no idea about that,but before I went through grief,
I had to deal with anticipatorygrief, which is, cause my, I
got, my mom got diagnosed and Iwas 21.
(03:50):
So I lost her over the course.
And then she passed awaysuddenly in 28.
So I had to deal with unexpectedgrief because she was supposed
to have two more years of lifeexpectancy.
But I think that, you know, whenyou're, when you're asking me
and to all the listeners is, youknow, how to deal with grief,
it's so individual.
And I think that there is no oneway.
There is no right way.
(04:11):
There's just a way in your way.
And I think that the people thathave kind of gone there first
can explain and tell about theirjourney I think the best you can
do is hope to ease the path ofsomeone that's on it because it
is so individual.
And once you're in your griefjourney, there's nothing anyone
could do to fix it, to make itbetter.
But I think that what people cando is really just to figure out
(04:32):
how to sit with you in yourgrief.
And to make it maybe to ease thepath that you're on.
But it's not one that anyone cantell you how preemptively how to
deal with it because it's soindividual to each person.
Yeah, you know, I think mydiscomfort mostly lies in how to
acknowledge grief for others,when you're going through it.
(04:53):
So I, I, I'm very good atdealing, I think, with my own
problems in general, but whenit's for other people, I feel
like, I want to express mysympathy.
However, I don't know how to doit, especially when it comes to
something like this in a waythat, comes off, without hurting
the other.
I think that one of the biggestmisconceptions is that you can
(05:14):
make it worse.
Acknowledging it is so importantbecause I think the discomfort
lies and when there'sdiscomfort, a lot of people go,
well, I don't know what to do,so I'm going to do nothing.
And then the person that'sgrieving goes, well, this huge
thing happened to me and no oneis acknowledging it.
And that makes people feelisolated and alone, or at least
(05:35):
it did for me, the greatestthing that someone ever did,
which is what I do to anyonethat's going through grief.
I say, I can't do anything tomake it better.
I am so sorry that this happenedto you.
I'm here to love and supportyou.
I send them food because when Iforgot, someone sent me food, I
forgot to eat.
The first thing when, when Iwent through grief, my
(05:57):
coworkers, my sweet coworker,Katie, she sent me a gift card
for food.
Because I forgot to eat, like itnever even occurred to me.
So I, since I want to get partto eat.
And then the nicest thing, twoof my friends did is they said,
anytime you want to talk aboutyour mom, I would love to learn
about who she was and who she isanytime I would talk about her,
because when you're goingthrough grief and there's this
(06:18):
level of discomfort around it.
It becomes almost like a tabootopic.
The thing and the person thatyou love that you just lost is
kind of off limits.
And that's the one person andthe thing that's always on your
mind, particularly in the earlystages of grief.
I can speak for myself.
And so to have two friends comeand just say, you know, anytime
you want to talk about her.
I'm happy to listen and happy tolearn and to sit with you and to
(06:40):
listen to you and hold space forme was one of the most valuable
things that could have that theygave me was just the gift of
holding space and sitting withme and allowing me to sit and to
feel and holding that space forme.
Wow.
That's so good.
Thank you.
Thank you.
As soon as you said that, itjust, a lot of light bulbs
started going off.
(07:01):
That's great because you, it'sjust always good to have that
tool.
You know, to be able to know howto, react in a certain situation
like that, because it can be souncomfortable.
Everyone.
And it's just, the thing is, isthat, you know, there's nothing
you can bring up.
It's always on someone's mind,particularly if it's new grief,
at least I can speak to me was,it was on my mind and everyone's
(07:23):
like, Oh, I don't want to bringit up.
It's already done.
I'm already thinking about whatI don't want is what kind of
happened or I think theinclination is, you know, to
feel like she's off limits topeople like I can't talk about
because people don't know whatto do.
When the number one thing I wantto do sometimes is to talk about
her because I'm missing her andTo have that space and just to
(07:45):
offer it right.
It's up for someone to take upon the offer, but to know that
your safe space that they can goto and to feel like you if you
have the capability and thecapacity to hold space for
someone to offer that to someoneand to truly mean it and to say,
you know, anytime you want totalk about them.
Just having that is like asounding board.
Was the most helpful thing to mebecause then two people I could
(08:09):
be able to say, Hey, I'm reallymissing mom.
Do you mind if I talk about her?
And they're like, yeah,absolutely.
I'd love to listen to her.
I'd love to learn about her.
That was the most, that was thenicest kind of thing.
So I always do that to peoplenow.
I love that.
Well, with that in mind, tell usabout your mother.
Oh, she's wonderful.
I have the most wonderful motherin the whole world.
Her name is Candace.
(08:30):
And my mother was an Englishmajor from the University of
Georgia.
She had fiery red hair and shewas very soft spoken.
And she's a very kind personwhen she passed, everyone said,
you know, Oh, your mother issuch a kind woman.
And I think that is like thenicest thing that you could ever
hope to hear about yourself orto hear about someone you love
(08:51):
when they pass as everyone saysthat she's so kind.
And I think that I never reallyunderstood my mother growing up.
I can't, because she was aperson that was soft spoken.
She was a peacekeeper.
She was, a person that reallywas.
More okay with being awallflower and allowing other
people to take up space andbeing able to kind of take a
(09:12):
backseat.
And so it was all these thingsthat I thought I was told were
not strength.
I was told that I kind of viewedher as weakness.
I viewed it as weakness a littlebit truthfully.
And as I've grown up, I realizedthat there is strength and
kindness and strength andgentleness and there's strength.
And being able to take a backseat and knowing when to speak,
you know, and not talk, youknow, she knew when to speak and
(09:34):
to say her bit, but she didn'tfeel the need to talk all the
time about it, and that took alevel of wisdom that I didn't
recognize growing up.
And so, you know, in the, one ofthe poems I say at the very end
is I wish I could tell you whatI know now.
I wish I could hear you forgiveme somehow, because, and to, you
know, forgive and to let herknow that I think I understand
her better, but I think it tookme being an adult really, and
(09:55):
growing up and also being ableto kind of grieve not having her
in the way that I'm used tohaving her that a, I really
began to understand my mother,in a way that I just didn't when
I had her, because, you know, Iwas 21 when she got diagnosed
and then it was downhill fromthere, but.
She's wonderful.
I'm so grateful for my mother.
I have the most wonderfulmother.
(10:18):
Is, is there something you wishyou could tell her now if she
was still alive, outside of whatyou said in your poem?
I'm thinking, I'm happy.
She only wanted my happiness.
Yeah.
(10:39):
And I would just tell her thatI'm happy.
I think as a parent, that'sprobably what we would want the
most for our kids, right?
So, I think she'd be verygrateful to hear that.
She always wanted my happiness,and I would just let her know
that I'm happy.
So, you know, if we can, uh, goa little deeper into this.
(11:01):
My, my mother, she lived with usfor some time, about five years
ago, and I had to put her in ahome.
She, she has dementia,borderline Alzheimer's,
beginning of Alzheimer's.
And, you know, I heard thissaying, when I started taking
care of my mother, which Ilearned to understand, you know,
when you have a parent or aloved one with Alzheimer's or
(11:25):
dementia that, you know, youlose them twice.
Mm hmm.
And, it's very true, right?
You're watching them, loseweight.
Their spirit, essentially, ofwho they are and who you love
over that time.
And then eventually you losethem physically as well.
Can you talk about that process,that grieving process?
(11:45):
Because it's an ongoing, longerprocess as well, right?
Oh, it's anticipatory grief.
It's a thing of, You are losing.
And so I'm writing a book toexpand on this, of this idea of
what I put in the album.
And so, but it is the process oflosing who they, who you knew
(12:05):
them to be and who you, theessential part of them.
And it's learning about who theyare now.
And then there's differentphases and stages that are
really difficult with goingthrough, at least with
Alzheimer's, we did it withours, but there are certain
stages.
Stages that seem to beuniversal, like there's a stage
where they get kind ofaggressive, which is my mother
(12:27):
was very, very peaceful.
So for her to be aggressive wasa really jarring thing, but
apparently it can be a commonsymptom that people go through I
think that, going through theanger, but I understand the
anger because it's the loss ofindependence that they have,
right.
That's something that'shappening to them.
So like when my mom, when we hadto take her car away, because
(12:49):
there wasn't a, she would beliable if she got into an
accident and she didn't want tohurt anyone.
My mother was the nicest,sweetest, kindest, most gentle
person in the whole world.
She wouldn't want to hurtanyone, but she was a liability
at this point.
So we had to take a car away.
That was an incredibly difficultsituation.
And, you know, I think that itis challenging and there is, and
(13:13):
all you can do, or all we coulddo, and all I would say is in an
uncertain situation with noroadmap, basically, because
everything's so individual, giveyourself grace because you are
doing the best that you can do.
(13:35):
And it is hard.
A, it is hard.
Acknowledge it's hard.
B, give yourself grace.
that you are doing the best thatyou can do in a hard situation
with someone that you love.
Everything about this is hard.
Nothing about this is easy.
And see, I would say, just enjoythem, learn how to just swallow
(13:56):
them.
That's what I did because I knewthat every day was going to be
the best day that was going tohave with her because it was
degenerative.
And I just swallowed my motherand I made memories that I
carried, but I made themintentionally because I knew
that those were the memoriesthat were going to carry me.
When I look back on my journeyof losing her over time, I know
(14:19):
that there's the hard, but Iknow that I'm so grateful that I
chose to intentionally createthe good.
And I would say, You know, findout ways to still have joy
together and also laugh becausesometimes things are funny, you
know, they're doing somethingand it's kind of funny and they
(14:41):
can laugh too, you know, we'reall humans.
And so I think that, you know,figure out how to swallow them,
still find the joy becausethere's still joy to be found
and, and just create thosememories so that you have good
ones too.
And that it's not all bad andlearn how to laugh when there's
something to laugh at.
(15:01):
Because there's still joy in thehuman experience.
There's still joy.
And that's what I would say.
Yeah.
You know, I'm tempted to share afunny story from when my mom was
with us.
You okay with that?
Of course, yeah, I have lots ofthem.
Yeah, so, you know when I firsttook her in again This is like
(15:21):
it's now been about seven yearsago when I first took her in I
didn't realize I didn'tunderstand The illness or her
limitations or I just stillremembered my mother had i'd
been away from my mother for 30years and I just saw her as this
powerful little woman, right?
She's little she's like fourfeet 10 you know four feet nine
maybe even and but she's just Imean, she's super intelligent,
(15:43):
kind, like you said, generous,helpful, just a strong, strong,
strong woman.
And so I just remember her thatway all the time, right?
Very capable.
So when I took her in, I waslike, I was still working and
I'm thinking, okay, I'll justprepare some food for her.
And, and, uh, and she can justwarm it up in a microwave and
eat when it's time for her.
Right.
And, so we prepare.
(16:04):
It was joyful, like we preparedall these meals and we put them
in mason jars, getting themready, you know, and I gave her
a couple of jobs because shefelt like she needed to work.
Right.
So one of them was, cleaning thedishes and the other one was
feeding the dog.
Right.
So I get home from work and I'mlooking, I'm like, huh, the
mason jars are all full.
I wonder what's wrong there.
(16:24):
And then I look at the dog foodand it was empty.
She confused the dog food withher food.
And then, you know, she doesn'tknow English.
She was Spanish.
She was like, kind of sad.
Like, yeah, I thought it tasteda little bland.
(16:47):
It was just so funny.
I hate to laugh at, you know, Ihaven't had had my mother dog
food, essentially.
But, you know, there's a funnystory that we all laugh at in
the family now.
I mean, there's still laughterand there's still life to be
had, you know, and I did it likemy mom, I used to give her
little tasks all the time.
And I think the other thing too,is that was really hard for me
(17:08):
at the beginning is to becomeokay with the idea that I could
be a nice lady to her.
And that would be okay with mebecause she didn't know who I
was at the end, but I realizedI'm a nice lady and she feel
safe with me and she showed, andI can show her love that way,
you know, and that's what also Iwould say is, you know, when you
(17:30):
get to the point where theydon't see it, when they don't
recognize you, see if you can,Find joy and being someone they
still feel safe with.
And they think that you're anice person to hang out with.
So I hung out with my mom allthe time.
She's like, you're a very nicelady.
And I was like, I am a nicelady.
You know, I didn't be like, youraised me to be a nice lady, you
know, but she's like, you know,you're really nice.
(17:54):
And then she just kind of likegotten like this loop where
she's like, you're a nice lady.
And I was like, it didn't makeevery like on the 20th time of
being told I'm a nice lady.
I'll be honest.
It was still as nice as thefirst time of being told that I
was a nice lady.
You know?
And I was like, yeah.
At some point it became like a,in a empowerment speech where
she's like, you're a nice lady.
And I'm like, I am a nice lady.
(18:14):
Thank you.
I love it.
Cleo, so let's talk a little bitabout your poetry and how you
use that.
First of all, backing up alittle bit, did you have any
background already?
I know you said your mother andyour grandmother, had experience
in poetry and Englishliterature, but how about
yourself?
Like, what was your backgroundlike first?
I'm a darn good research paperwriter.
(18:35):
So I went to school formarketing.
I was a marketer for 10 years.
And I, grandma, Ooh, she putwork into me.
So she made me a good, reallygood reading English paper or
English writer or researchpaper, English writer.
And so I went through and I canwrite a darn good research
paper, but I never wrotecreatively.
(18:56):
And then when I.
After losing mom, maybe about amonth later, I heard about two
lines, the middle of the nightin my head.
And I, you know, I triedeverything and I was just like,
you know, fudge it.
We'll just try this.
So I went downstairs in themiddle of the night at 2 AM and
I wrote down the two lines thatI heard in my head and they made
(19:16):
it feel a little bit better.
And so I just kept writingbecause it made it feel a little
bit better.
It didn't make it hurt less.
It just made it feel a littlebit better.
So, and then I basically.
Creep for, you know, for aboutsix months, went into deep
isolation, and then I justwrote.
For my own sake, I neverintended for it to be public,
(19:37):
but I wrote as a way to be ableto process what was happening in
my body because I made theconscious decision to feel
everything.
I decided consciously that Iwasn't going to shut myself off
from any of the emotions.
I think that.
A lot of the emotion.
I think that we think aboutemotions somewhat differently or
wrongly potentially, or at leastI did.
(19:58):
I thought that anger and sadnessand bitterness and all these
things were really were wrongand I shouldn't feel them and I
should feel bad for feelingthem.
But what I realized is that if Ididn't feel anger, bitterness,
sad, Mad, you know, all thesethings that I wouldn't feel joy
and I wouldn't feel happinessand I wouldn't feel love for my
(20:19):
mom and my dog and my husband.
And I wouldn't feel friendshipand camaraderie by going and
shutting myself off from motionsthat I thought were, deemed bad.
I was also shutting myself offfrom emotions that were deemed
good.
So when I was writing, I wrotefor The sole purpose of being
(20:39):
able to take what was happeninginside my body and put it
outside of my body so I couldlook at it, and I could do
something productive with mytime and constructive, and it
would make it hurt a little bitless, and I could you know when
I was looking and doing all thepoetry not all of it is.
All about doom and gloom and mebeing in grief and, you know,
fudge this life and all thisstuff.
You know, there's a lot of onesthat are also about gratitude
(21:01):
and I'm happy today and my, my,I love my husband and I love my
dog.
So it's kind of by experiencingall of the emotions and not
really putting judgment to themsaying that they're good or bad.
I was able to, you know,experience quote unquote, good
emotions.
And I just was able to feeleverything and then process it.
And then I fear experience,which I have now is peace and
(21:23):
acceptance about my mother'sdeath, but that took about six
months.
It took about, and I'm not even,you know, and I'm still moving
with my grief for my mom.
I'll probably never get over itbecause I love her so much.
And I wish that she was here andI wish that I could hold her,
but I can't.
But I can be able to still carryher with me and experience her.
By being kind to myself and toothers, I am able to connect
(21:43):
with my mom.
And so I went and stoppedwriting after I ran into the
world about six months after mymom passed.
And then about two years later,I got inspired by songwriting.
And so I picked up writingagain.
And I went to a mentorshipsession with an amazing
producer, Jim Riley.
And I was just like, here's somestuff I wrote.
Can you help me?
(22:03):
And he's like, you're amazing.
And I was like, what?
And I was like, I had no idea.
Cause I wrote it for myself.
And then he's like, I'll produceyou.
And I was like, what?
Anyway, so then I found amazingeditors.
I have Sheree and Mary and mygrandmother, who was 93.
She's one of my editors, mymaternal grandmother.
And we put together this albumand I released it with the hope
that I felt so isolated in mygrief.
(22:26):
That if someone else could writeabout their honest experience,
that maybe it won't make someonefeel as isolated when they're
going through something as Ifelt.
And I feel like that is the onlyhope that I have with the album,
is that.
Someone can know that I sit withthem metaphorically in the
album.
And I say, I get it.
(22:48):
Someone gets it.
And I have peace and acceptanceand maybe you can too.
Wow.
Did, um, you, you chose poetryas your medium, right?
Um, did you, did you look at,did you consider other mediums
like poetry?
(23:08):
Like you said songwriting orshort stories or anything like
that or did poetry just comenaturally to you It was the only
way that it made sense.
Okay, it was it chose me I feellike I tried writing other ways
but it's the only way that madesense to me was writing and
poetry and I think that thecreation of Art.
(23:31):
I, I, cause I deem it more artthan poetry.
Cause I don't want to put alabel on it really.
But I thought about recently,you know, I was like, why, what
is the purpose of art?
Cause I'm this person thatthinks about what the purpose of
art is for about two days.
Right.
Cause that's who I am as aperson.
I thought about it.
And I realized that what I, whatmy, my definition is, is that by
connecting and creating from myown humanness and I own
(23:54):
humanity, And putting it outthere that someone can maybe
consume it and then be connectedto their humanists and their own
humanity.
And that is the purpose of art.
And that's what I, created itwith connecting to my own
humanists, my own humanity.
And I think that maybe, someonecan, if they consume it or
listen to it, that, or read it,that maybe that can connect to
(24:16):
them, the humanists andhumanity.
And so I think that that's thepurpose of art and that's what I
hope that releasing the albumwill allow people to do.
And did you go and perform it aswell?
Just released an album.
And yeah, I wrote it.
I got it edited.
I felt really good.
And then I released it with thehope that someone else may be
(24:39):
able to not feel so alone.
By talking about grief openlyand honestly and about someone's
grief journey and about all thefacets of it, because it's so
multifaceted.
It's not, you know, as I say Ithought that grief was like
shade, like the one big shade ofgray.
I'm grieving.
It's not.
For me, at least, it was likesome days I'm gray.
Some days I'm light gray.
Some days I'm not as light gray.
(25:00):
Some days I'm blue.
Some days I'm red.
Some days I don't know whatcolor I am.
Some days I'm not a color.
You know, it's to, to, it's socomplex.
The emotions into it are socomplex that I just.
Released the album.
I did not, I haven't, you know,I haven't performed it, but I
(25:22):
released it because I didn'tunderstand that it could be so
complex because no one told me.
And then I felt, and then I usedart to be able to understand it
and to try to explain thecomplexity that was going on in
my body.
Gotcha.
So I didn't prepare you forthis, but I'm hoping you can
(25:45):
maybe share a piece with us.
And then we can talk about it.
Yeah, let's see.
I will share who my mother wasin poetry, if that's alright.
My child's mind splintered whentold my angel mother was not
(26:05):
anointed.
My child's mind couldn'tcomprehend.
No angels or demons came toclaim her.
She was a woman completelyincomplete.
A tapestry of talents to wrapmyself in.
She didn't hang the moon.
She swung from it.
Softly on a swing crafted bywoodland fairies.
(26:26):
Whose kitch house as she made asa child, Georgia red clay flowed
through her veins, coursing whencatching crick salamanders under
the watchful eye of her stickhorse.
My sister and I fell asleep toher lullabies sung by her gentle
voice, rivaling chimes, rockingus as she swung above the world.
Wow.
Sounds, like you went back intime to who Cleo remembers his
(26:49):
mother as a child.
Yeah, that's my mother.
Georgia red clay flowed throughher veins.
And so whenever I go and Iinscribe, I found like this
little Georgia book.
And so I will send it wheneverone of my friends has a baby or
something, I, inscribe it.
And I say, may Georgia red clayflow through your veins.
(27:12):
You know, with love, CleoChilds, as a way to kind of
honor my mom and say, Georgiared clay flow through her veins,
it flows through mine.
And I hope it can flow throughyours.
Beautiful.
Thank you.
Well, Cleo, is, before we moveon to our world famous Wayfinder
(27:33):
4, I'm wondering, is thereanything else that you wanted to
share about this?
I would just share, it's allabout love.
It's all about love.
And I would just say in thereally hard times, cause there
(27:54):
are hard times that I look backon it and I just still know my
mother loved me when everythingwas really hard and maybe she
didn't know I was in, she justknew I was a nice lady.
She loved me and I loved her.
And I think that, you know, Iwould, I'll do one more, which
(28:15):
is that it's called holding yourhand.
I wrote it for someone and Iknew about it.
And they came to me and theysaid, you know, my, my husband
is dying of, of lung cancer.
And they asked me aboutanticipatory grief and they
said, what was it like to loseher?
And this is what I wrote for,for them, which is here, holding
(28:36):
your hand.
I press it gently into my skin,trying to absorb you into me to
a place where my good health canbe a respite for you.
Feeling your hand in mine, Imake a mold of it in my memory,
track every crevice, mark everyline.
I pray to become a black hole, ablack hole to suck you in, to
(28:56):
keep you safe, warm, alive.
But I am not a black hole, andyou'd land past me sucking you
in.
So I hold your hand, radiatinglove to you, as you radiate love
to me.
Here, holding your hand, we arewhole.
So I would just say in thosehard times, they love you, and
(29:17):
you love them.
And I think that's a wonderfulthing.
And I forgot it sometimes, so Iwould just remind you about it.
And it's all about love.
Thank you.
Especially, I think that'sreally helpful to remember
during that phase after ourloved one has passed the first
time if they have Alzheimer's,right?
(29:38):
It's really hard to recognizethat sometimes, right?
I remember I forgot it a lot andI'm reminding myself and I wish,
you know, I wish I could go backand remind myself of that, but
that's what I would say is Iwould just remind myself that
it's all about love.
Thank you.
Well, clear on that point.
(29:59):
Let's, if you could, we cantransition a little bit to our
world famous Wayfinder 4.
Woohoo! Yeah, you ready?
Yeah.
All right, give us a hack.
If you have someone that's goingthrough something, give them
like a going through the earlystages of Alzheimer's or even
late, find little tiny tasksthat they can do.
(30:21):
That you could be able to dothat.
They can be able to help youwith, because it matters for,
independency and feeling ofagencies.
For example, at Thanksgiving, Iwould just ask my mom, Hey, can
you hand me that thing overthere?
The tinfoil, for example, and Icould easily get the tinfoil,
but my mom loved to be able tohelp me.
And so I gave her the smallopportunities doing things that
(30:42):
she could do to be able to helpme and feel like she still had
agency and independence and shewas contributing.
So I would say, try to findthose tiny little things that
they can be able to help youwith and allow them to help you
and be just, you know, and allowthem to share that with you.
I love that.
Yeah, I mentioned, you know,with my mom, first thing we did
(31:02):
was give her a job again, whichat first was, and I mentioned
how short she was.
I had to build a step platform.
You couldn't just use a regularstep stool because she also had
Parkinson's.
So she had really bad balance.
And so I built a, with just somescrap wood, a big platform.
So she couldn't just fill up.
Although she did end up stilltrying to come down that step
(31:24):
and that was too much.
And so I had to take that jobaway, which was very difficult
for her.
You know, but you can alwaysfind new jobs, you know, yeah,
that's the good news about jobs.
It was really cute Absolutelythe pride that she took in that
it was just adorable to watchright but yeah, okay How about a
favorite?
(31:45):
I love cozy murder mysteries nowthese seem like things that
should not go together It's aVenn diagram that I'm very
pleased with.
So it is like, so my mom lovedAgatha Christie and she got me
into Agatha Christie.
She loved Nancy Drew.
She loved a good murder mystery.
And so I love murder mysteries,but I found some, cause like one
(32:05):
of them is called, It is, it'sthe magical bookshop series and
it's uses the works of EmilyDickinson to help solve murders.
And I'm like, tell me more,please.
So I'm waiting, I read them atdifferent seasons.
So the next one set in Octoberfor Halloween.
So wait until October to readit.
And they're using the works ofEdgar Allen Poe to help solve
(32:28):
mysteries.
If that doesn't make you excitedabout reading, I don't know what
will like, okay, that's great.
I don't know what to say aboutthat.
That sounds great.
I know it is great.
It's fantastic.
So I read like two hours everymorning.
I get up and I read from sevento nine, my cozy murder
mysteries, and I got a stack ofthem and they just make me
(32:49):
happy.
You know?
Yeah.
What about a piece of advice foryour younger self?
It's all about love.
That's what I would say.
Sometimes I forgot that.
And I would just say, you know,just keep loving her.
And she loves you.
And you love her.
And that makes it really, allthe hard times a little less
(33:11):
hard.
And I forgot that.
And that made the hard timesharder.
And I think that I would have,if I had remembered that, then
the hard times would have been alittle bit easier.
How about a, either you canchoose either a limiting belief
or a big opportunity limitingbelief.
I thought about this.
Okay, because I, I preparethings.
I'm gonna prepare.
(33:31):
I love it.
I'm not survivalist prepare.
Absolutely.
I tell my husband to just leaveme'cause I'm gonna slow him down
and then apocalypse situationjust like, but when it comes to
like preparing thoughts, I'mpretty good at it.
So I would say the blendingbleep is I can't make art.
And I'm not an artist because mybelief is that art is art.
(33:54):
Use it's creative expressionthat is created from connecting
to human, your humanity and yourhumanness in any way.
I think that's true.
It's like, and then releasing itand then someone else can
consume it and then getconnected to their humanity and
their humanness.
I think that we all have thecapability to create art.
I think that it just depends onthe mode that you want to do.
(34:16):
And I would say, find the modethat sparks joy or the make that
hurt a little bit less.
For example, me doing woodcarving makes it hurt a lot more
because I get frustrated, butmaybe doing writing makes it
hurt a little bit less.
And I would just say, you know,you, I think everyone has the
capability to be an artist.
I think everyone is an artist tobegin with.
I think everyone's medium isdifferent, but they're all equal
(34:38):
in their measures.
And I think creating art andusing creative expression and
doing it and bringing in yourhumanity allows us.
To connect to others andremember that we're not alone in
the human experience And we aremore than alone than alike or
more alone than different No, weare more alike than different
and we are not alone And I thinkthat's a wonderful thing to
(34:59):
remember and art helps us dothat.
Yeah, I agree.
And I also think our The conceptof art, right?
How we define it can be muchmore than just what we think of
as the creative stuff like yousaid wood carving or poetry or
what have you we had a guest,Charles Penoza, I think it was
episode 97.
He wrote a book about leadershipas a masterpiece.
(35:22):
What he did is he looked atbusinesses and business problems
and how they were resolvedthrough the humanities and
classic works of art.
And he looked, you know, it justmade you understand.
I think like, a lot of theworld's great business leaders
are actually, you know, they'renot operators, they're artists.
They're looking at theirbusiness as an art and how to
grow it.
So I think we can, it can applyin a much more broad fashion
(35:46):
than just what we normally thinkof as art.
I think we are creators.
I believe that humans arecreators and what we have the
capability to create is art.
And I think art is anything thatconnects us, that we create,
that connects us to ourhumanness and our humanity.
By putting it out there, itconnects other people to their
humanness and their humanity,and then I think that art helps
(36:07):
to prove that we're not alone inthe human experience.
And I think that that reallyhelps to, it brings me hope and
it brings me joy.
And I think art is justcreation.
Yeah.
Well put.
Thanks.
I told you, I thought about it.
I'm not this eloquent when Ihaven't thought about things.
(36:27):
So I try to think about itbeforehand.
Yeah.
And you're also super wellprepared.
so Cleo, this has been a realjoy.
If anybody else wants to, Getahold of your album, your
upcoming book, just learn moreabout you.
Where should we point them to?
Yeah, I have a website calledcleo childs.
com.
Try to make it simple.
So that's C L E O child.
(36:49):
C H I L D S.
I put the album out oneverything, all the places I
could find to put it out on.
I did cause I didn't want to,you know, put it behind a wall
where people who may relate toit.
Couldn't get to it.
So it's out there in the ether.
I'm currently editing the book,so don't go looking for it yet.
(37:11):
Give me a little bit of time,but I'm really excited about it.
And it's really just helping toexpand the idea of the journey
so that people can be able torelate more maybe, or feel not
so alone and it's different,experiences that I went through
that really I would have to paredown for the album sake.
And then, Yeah, that's prettymuch me.
And I'm just, you know, gratefuland thankful.
(37:33):
And thank you so much for havingme.
Yeah, thank you for being here.
Just as a reminder, the title ofyour album is moving with
correct?
Yes.
Because as I said, there's nomoving on.
There's just moving with Yeah, Ilove that.
So look up moving with anywherein in the ether, as you said, by
Cleo Childs.
And do you have a title for yourupcoming book yet?
(37:56):
Currently we're working onmoving with the expanded
edition, but I think that'sprobably going to change because
it's called moving with book.
So I think that we have, we havean opportunity here to maybe
rethink it, but, um, it will beon my website whenever, you
know, I release it, but it's inthe editing process right now,
but I'm really pleased with it.
(38:17):
Awesome.
Well, Cleo, thank you so muchfor being here.
Thank you for, you know, sharingyour experience with us, your
art with us.
And personally, I'm mostgrateful for you sharing the
tool, of something I, clearly Iget uncomfortable with it, which
is just how to express my, youknow, sympathy for grief with
others.
And, that's something I'll, I'lltake with me hopefully for the
(38:38):
rest of my life.
So I'm, I'm really grateful.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
I'm glad that, it resonated withyou and, please feel free to use
it and pass it along.
Yeah, we'll do.
Thank you, Cleo We hope you'veenjoyed The Wayfinder Show.
If you got value from thisepisode, please take a few
seconds to leave us a 5 starrating and review.
(38:59):
This will allow us to help morepeople find their way to live
more authentic and excitinglives.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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