Episode 90 Angela's Journey from Musician to Healer and End-of-Life Harpist

Episode Transcript
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Fiona Kane (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection Podcast
.
My name is Fiona Kane.
Today I've got another guestand we're going to be talking
about a therapeutic musicapplication, and I'm sure our
guest will tell us exactly whatthat is.
So today we have AngelaSkibberis.
Hi, angela.

Angela Sciberras (00:19):
Hi Fiona, Thank you so much for having me
on.
This is absolutely fantastic.

Fiona Kane (00:24):
So tell us a little bit about you, a bit of your
background, and why am I talkingto you about this topic today?

Absolutely.
Thanks again.
Lovely to be here, lovely to bewelcomed, and can't wait to
chat with you about things thatI'm very passionate about.
So my day job you see me likeSuperman and Clark Kent my day
job, my Clark Kent iskinesiology.
So I've been working as akinesiologist for just on 20
years.
I started in neurolinguistickinesiology, then went in and

(00:55):
learned neurotraining a wholecompletely, you know, based in
kinesiology practice, but alsoyou know, other areas and other
focuses in the nervous system,and then went on to something
called resolve, beyond neurology.
So 20 years of experience,thousands of clients and client
session times that's.

(01:17):
That's been my passion in life,or one of my big passions is
working with people in that way.
But my former life, beforecoming to kinesiology, was a
musician.
So I did a music degree.
I have a bachelor's degree inmusic and I was a solo flautist.

(01:38):
Actually had my own, you know,own random dreams of becoming
the next Jane Rutto, except notmake it on a piano.
You know her own random dreamsof becoming the next Jane Rutto,
except not make it on a piano.
Uh, yeah, so I loved flute andplayed in SBS orchestra for a
period.
Um, on and off, played in lotsof ensembles and things like
that, and it was actually aninjury due to playing.

(01:58):
That brought me to kinesiologyitself, which which is
interesting, yeah, so mostlythat's what I do in life is just
really passionate about helpingpeople love the arts, spend a
lot of time in creative fields,and music in particular, which
has led me to what we're goingto talk about today.

Fiona Kane (02:17):
Okay, yeah, that is an interesting background.
So I didn't know that youplayed the flute, I didn't know
those things.
So there you go.

Yeah, well, flute was before I had an RSI
injury in my second year at uni.
Flute was like an extension ofmy body and I think when I had
that injury it was almost like adying, coming to the point
where I realised that I couldn'tplay to the intense capacity
that I was playing at the timewith, you know, just as you

(02:50):
could imagine at university andplaying to the level that we
were practising, doing all sortsof certifications and things
like that.
It was a lot of pressure on thebody and stress on the body and
I think too, in those dayswe're talking, you know, sort of
more than 20 years ago therewasn't a lot of understanding of

(03:12):
how to practice effectivelywithout injuring yourself.
I think nowadays it's a lotbetter.
We've got so much moreunderstanding and knowledge
about how to you know how toactually practice without
over-practicing, withoutinjuring our muscles and tendons
and things like that.

Fiona Kane (03:28):
Yeah yeah, so that's what I was going to ask Is it
like a shoulder or a neck sortof arm thing?

Yeah, well, for me it was actually that
position, you know, imagineyou're holding that position.
It was actually a wrist thingand I think the combination of
playing a lot of hours a day,sometimes six or seven hours a
day in ensembles and practicework, personal practice work,
but also it's the combination ofpractising and stress, so there

(03:56):
was often a lot of pressure tobe, you know, practising pieces
that were extremely difficult.
And to this day, interestingly,when I pick up the flute and I
play particular pieces, whetherit be Telemann or certain, you
know, extremely complex piecesfrom, you know, the 19th century
or classical pieces, it's likemy body has a memory and I'll

(04:21):
start to have a little bit ofaching in my wrist again, like
the body's thinking oh no, notthis stuff again, but I can pick
up folk, I can pick up jazz,improvisation and play for
countless hours and not have anypain.
So it's really interesting thatyou know, I must have a balance
about that.
Note to self, I need to have abalance about that as well,
because it's something that thebody the body actually, you know

(04:44):
, keeps the score and itremembers that.
It remembers that stress, um,you know, so moved from, yeah,
less flute playing into a littlebit more multicultural sort of
um well, music type of ensembles, um, playing everything from
korean music to um, javanesemusic to you name it, african at

(05:06):
the time and a lot morepercussion, moving away from
flute a little bit just to givethat, you know, help the body to
actually heal.
Yes, and it was around that sortof tail end of university that
I had an experience with mygrandmother that started to have
me think about music as ahealing modality.

(05:26):
So I think I'd always been aperformer, addicted with the
stage.
I still love speaking andperforming and things like that,
but it was my whole world wasgetting up on stage as a soloist
and performing and coming tosit with my grandmother as she
died and playing music for herhad me start to think there's

(05:51):
something more to this.
There's something more than itbeing something that's enjoyable
and it is.
There's something more to itthan being entertaining and it
is.
There's something that'sintrinsically and innately
healing.
So, sitting with her andwatching the way that her body
went from being, you know, justa vegetable in the chair, not

(06:13):
responding to, my father and Iwe were sort of playing some
Irish jigs he played the guitarand I played the flute and for a
moment you could almost imaginethat she wasn't dying, that she
, you know, it's like, you know,like a marionette or a puppet,
and the music began to take overher body Obviously, she was
part Irish, so we're playingthese and it was like forgive my

(06:36):
goodness, it's like a secondwind, or where is this energy
coming from?
Where is this ability to get upand almost dance energy coming
from?
Where is this ability to to getup and almost dance?
Um, and both my father and Iwere just blown away by how the
music actually animated her andalmost gave her back to us for a

(06:58):
period of time.
Yes, she did go downhill muchquicker after that and passed
away, you know, only a few daysafter that, but we never thought
we'd have that type ofinteraction with her again.
Yes, and I think that's what Ibecame fascinated with the power
that music could have toactually be able to, you know,

(07:22):
give people an opportunity toreconnect with their loved ones
in a way that they may not beable to.

Fiona Kane (07:28):
So it's quite extraordinary.
We played music for my mother,not as in played the instruments
, but just had a microphone andplayed music and my mother she
was quite heavily medicated so Ididn't get any response from it
.
It wasn't really about that,but I feel like it would have
been quite soothing for her andher familiar music and it was

(07:49):
actually probably soothing forall of us.
So we were kind of playing.
It was like all these lovelysort of 70s Bee Gees and ABBA
and songs like that that we usedto love and that we sort of
grew up with.
So we just played that sort ofmusic for her and I like to
think that that would have beenhelpful for her, even though she
wasn't able to say so it wouldhave been.

It would have been, and we learn um.
Once I went into learning aclinical application of music,
so then becoming more interestedin.
Well, how can we apply music insuch a way?
That's more intentional, um,but also quite intuitive in that
connection with a person,particularly when they can't
like your mother, she couldn'ttell you whether she was
enjoying it, but you know, welearn other ways of being able

(08:30):
to tell whether someone is stillstressed, whether they're upset
, whether it could be the colourof their skin, a grimace on
their face, the way that they'reholding their fists, whether
they're holding the sheetsreally tightly, all of these
things, the rise and fall of thechest, you know, if they're on,
often in palliative situations,they're not.

(08:51):
But if you're in an ICU or withneonates which I've spent some
time with neonates you've gotall of the machinery which help
you to see blood oxygen levelsor their heart rate, and so you
can literally watch as you playto see, ah, their oxygen levels
improving.
Ah, yes, their heart rate isthink about that.

(09:12):
Wow, okay, yeah, so yeah, that'sright, we can circle back
around to a little bit moreabout that in a moment, um, but
yeah, so after that experiencewith my grandmother I became
fascinated and I started to lookaround sort of Australia,
around certifications ortraining that one could do to
learn more about how to applymusic in that way.

(09:34):
And at that time we were sortof still looking at music.
Therapy was, you know, andstill is, a very respected and
highly effective degree thatpeople can do here in Australia.
And I went to the Golden State,which is in Penrith, at that
time and they've still gotwonderful training there for

(09:57):
people who wish to become musictherapists.
But their focus I'm not surewhether it still is, but at that
time their focus was very muchon music for people with
disability, children often, orthose kind of applications where
you can make a littledifference to people like that.

(10:18):
But I surprised myself that Ireally wanted to go down the
path of palliative.
I was passionate about theeffect that it could have in the
moments for people who weredying and it just didn't light
me up to as much as don't get mewrong, it's amazing work that
people do with children withdisabilities or all sorts of

(10:39):
brain injuries.
It's amazing, but that justwasn't where I felt my
fascination.
Um, around that deathbed,sitting at the deathbed, and
there was nothing really at thattime in australia that would
address that type of training.
Um, so, just by sir, it wassometimes, I think, secret

(11:00):
synchronicity, the power ofsynchronicity I connected.
Connected with a lady whowanted to learn flute.
I'd actually put a sign up inthe local shopping centre to say
that I was teaching flute.
She came for a flute lesson andjust so happened that she was
the first person in Australia tobe doing an online.

(11:21):
Now, back in the day, peoplethought it was, you know, so
unprofessional, can you believe?
You know, we're talking back in2005,.
So unprofessional.
And Mickey Mouse and to do acourse online.

Fiona Kane (11:36):
Yes, yeah, in those days, wasn't it Exactly?

It was very new and my late mentor, stella
Benson I'll show you this is herbook actually the Healing
Musician for anyone.
I think you can see that therefor anyone who's interested in
learning more about it, she's.
She has a wonderful book abouther work.
So she had created she was abedside musician and she'd

(12:05):
created something called theInternational Healing Musicians
Program and she ran onlineprograms.
Yes, it was online, but it'searly days online, so not like
we could do something like thiswith Zoom, which is
extraordinary.
It was all.
Yes, there was the emailing andthere was an online site where
you could do, you know, theassignments and things like that

(12:26):
, but it was all via phonebasically, so everyone would
connect up to a conference calland, you know, we could do the
certification.
So this beautiful woman namedJulie Webb actually I have to
credit her because she came into learn flute, but literally I
recognise that she was a harpistnumber one and number two she

(12:48):
was the first person inAustralia to be completing what
was called the InternationalHealing Musicians Program.
And, oh my goodness, like youcan't make that up, when someone
comes to your house for a musiclesson and literally they're
doing the course that I wasseeking and that focus really
was on deathbed palliative care.
So that's where coming into thecertification all started.

(13:12):
It's amazing, from there,speaking with Stella Benson, who
unfortunately has passed awayin the last few years, we made a
deal.
So at the time I couldn'tafford to do her course, but we
made a deal.
I said I actually part of myuniversity degree was event
management and I said I'm a veryeffective event manager.

(13:35):
Let me curate an event here inAustralia, a symposium of sorts,
and we'll bring you out to runworkshops with musicians.
I'll do all of the work.
If you will train, put methrough the training.
I'll bring you out here.
We'll expect like we'll selltickets for these things, we'll

(13:56):
get all your expenses paid andwe'll do where was she based?

Fiona Kane (13:59):
she was in the us.
Oh okay, I didn't.
I must have missed that whenyou said that, so I may not have
even said it, so apologies if Ididn't.

So she was in the us.
Yes, um, she was based inamerica and obviously in america
there's um.
Well then, and more so now even, there's a very rich base of
therapeutic music application,certainly different to a music
therapist, but lots of harpists.
Their hospitals actually haveharpists and they sometimes have

(14:27):
huge full-size gold harps incardiac wards.
They're paid really well to dotheir jobs.
You know, sometimes there's twogold harps in surgery.
Well, you know, they'reapplying it.
There's degrees called musicthanatology, which is the study
of death and dying in music, andthey work with universities and

(14:48):
hospitals that integrate themclinically into the fabric of
the hospital system.
Yes.
And unfortunately Australiahasn't quite caught, still
hasn't quite caught up with that, although we're doing better
and better, but at that stage itwas brand new.
Here that way of working hasn'tquite caught up with that,
although we're doing better andbetter, but at that stage it was

(15:09):
brand new.
Here that way of workingone-on-one, very specific
one-on-one type of work withpeople and truly starting to
understand a lot of the old andeven ancient ways of working
with music, where we can usetone, texture, different modes,
maybe ancient modes,understanding how the modes
affect the human body and thenbeing able to intuitively

(15:31):
acquire them at the bedside forthe good of the person at the
time.

Fiona Kane (15:36):
So what does different modes mean?
Okay, so different modes.

So modes are like keys.
So if you imagine those of youout there who aren't musicians,
a lot of musicians who arelistening would know what a mode
is.
They're like simplisticversions of a scale and you
would remember you might haveseen a musician play a scale
where they play C to C,da-da-da-da-da-da, like this

(16:01):
type of thing.
So a mode is almost a shortenedversion of a scale and these
modes can go right back to 11thcentury.
You know very old history ofvery old english modes or
gregorian modes andunderstanding how these
different modes or sounds affectthe body.

(16:23):
So major modes what in the Westwe would call like happy sounds
, you know, or minor modes,where the miners, they sound a
little bit sad are the minormodes.
So we would look at modes likemerry, merry modes.
You know, if I came into a roomand you know you could be a
couple of little old ladieshaving a cup of tea and they
just needed a lift, like theymight not be necessarily in pain

(16:45):
or unwell but they might be abit down that day.
So you might come and sit withthem while they have their cup
of tea and play some merrimentmodes, which the way that the
Western ear.
Obviously that's different forother cultures because they hear
they're going to hear differentthings, different things in
different modes.
But for us in the west when wehear a minor mode it's often

(17:07):
like sad songs and things likethat merry modes, they're the
uplifting um, things like that.
So we would start to understandthe different types of modes,
the different keys and differentsounds that affect the body.
You know, I know I feel reallyuplifted when I listen to this
particular song and that's oftengot a lot to do with the key or

(17:28):
the mode that that song is in.

Fiona Kane (17:31):
It's funny because I'm a really big music fan and
anyone who watches or listens tothis podcast will know that I
drone on about music atdifferent times and the latest
music I like or the lyrics Ilove or whatever.
But music really does affect mysoul.
It's funny.
I've sort of had this vagueawareness of music therapy in

(17:52):
the background of my brain, butI've kind of never really
stopped and thought aboutexactly how that is.
But it makes sense to me, basedon how I feel and how I can
feel joy from music, or I canfeel calm from music, or I can
be crying.
I put a song on and I, whateverit is.
Yes, that does make sense to me, but it's kind of like I just

(18:13):
never really just stopped andthought about it as much as I
have at this moment, I supposeyeah.
I've had the time to think aboutit, but now you're beginning to
explain it, so it's like thatmakes sense.

That makes sense, that's right, and we've
got these skills.
You know musicians, back in theday they would have been used,
particularly if you look at thispicture here on Stella's book,
you can see, hopefully withoutany shine there.
You see it's a very old pieceof artwork.
You can see the gentleman hereobviously is not looking very
well.
I don't know if that's an angelit here, obviously it's not

(18:46):
looking very well.
I don't know if that's an angel, it could be.
And then here of course we'vegot the harpist, and so you know
, the lyre players or theharpists would have been brought
in to relax or to uplift orheal.
I think ancient cultures have alot more understanding of, you
know, the power of vibration toheal, to heal.

(19:07):
And so because the harp, it hasa very specific tonality and
vibration that actually verymuch mimics, almost like the
vibration of the human body.
It's very close.
I think cello is also veryclose, but harp in particular.
You would know, whenever yousee a harp, people experience a
harp, they immediately are drawnto them.

(19:27):
I don't know whether it's allthe old mythology around the
harps and angels and things likethat.
Imagine me walking into apalliative care ward and my name
tag says Angela and I've got aharp, and you know so people
have a lot of very healingconnotations with harp in
particular, have a lot of veryhealing connotations with harp

(19:49):
in particular.
But that's not to say that youcan't use other instruments to
do this work, although when Ifirst came to the work,
obviously, as I said, I was aflautist, you know, not just to
tip my horn, but I was very goodat what I did.
But I realised in the veryfirst sort of experience of

(20:10):
going into a palliative careward to play for people in
palliative care wards with theflute, it was not the right
instrument.
It was not the right instrumentfor that environment, for
bedside environment.
So we've all had thoseexperiences where I don't know,
say, you've got a headache, oryou know you're not feeling very

(20:31):
well and there's a sound inyour environment that's
irritating.
We've all had that.
You know, if your child's intrying to practice their violin
and you think, oh my God, youknow.
So when you're sick, if you'vegot a brain tumour, if you're in
pain, the flute is not it, it'sjust it's not it.
And the range that you havewith flute normally moves up the

(20:56):
range into sort of higher,higher pitch type.
That's where it starts to singand be beautiful, but in those
types of environments it's alittle too much.

Fiona Kane (21:05):
Yeah, it's a bit too invasive sound.
Is that the right word?

yeah, yeah, it's like it can be for ill
people.
It can be irritating the pitchcan be piercing um maybe some.
I did take native americanplutes in one time and they've
got a beautiful top.
You know that timbre, that low,woody sort of a sound, much
more relaxing, a lot better.
Um.
But I very quickly realizedthat I had no range of movement

(21:29):
with flute in a palliative careward.
Um.
So, lucky me, my friend juliehad two harps.
She had two tiny harps.
At the time I'd never playedharp before.
But she said why don't you linemy harp?
And you know, see what, seewhat happens.
I thought, well, I've been aprofessional musician most of my
life.
Obviously I knew how to readmusic, do whatever.

(21:50):
So I sat down and literallytaught myself how to play the
harp.

Fiona Kane (21:57):
That's what I did last weekend.
You do?

And I say to everyone out there I'm not here
to say that I'm an extraordinaryconcert harpist not at all but
certainly I'm a very effectivetherapeutic harvest and you
don't have to be anyone who'ssitting there thinking to
themselves.
I've always wanted to play theharp.
You can certainly buy smallharps that are very effective,
very beautiful sounding, forthose types of environments um

(22:22):
could even be an aged carefacility, or it could be
neonates that you like, or itcould be any type of environment
that you're wanting to affectchange.
You can certainly learn theharp 100%.
They're very forgiving.
I literally went in.
I think maybe it might havetaken me two months to get to

(22:42):
the point where I thought, okay,I'm ready to go in with my harp
now.
And I think I had one piece andit was really I think it was
called Richard the Lionheartvery old 12th century English
piece, simple, and I think Imight have used one finger.
You know that's how early daysit was and I went in and sat

(23:05):
with this little old lady namedJoy and she cried, for at first
I didn't know whether she wascrying because it was that bad
or whether it was that good, butno she, she had tears coming
down her face she could run fromthe room like she could say.
so I'm thinking is it that good,is that bad?
But no, she.

(23:25):
She cried through the wholething and just experienced like
the most amazing thing, and Ithought this is just incredible,
almost like a harp would sayjust put your hands on me and
let me do the work.
Let me do the work, and had abeautiful experience with her
over you know maybe four or fivedifferent meetings, going in
and sitting with her up untilwhen she passed away, and it was

(23:50):
hilarious.
I came in I think it was thelast time I saw her.
I walked in the room and herson nearly fell off his chair
because she'd been telling himabout the angel named Angela
that was coming in with a harpand he thought when does anyone
ever?

Fiona Kane (24:05):
no one ever, you know you don't see harps like he
thought that she was seeingthings or something.

He thought that the morphine was was um.
So when I walked in the actualroom he couldn't believe.
He said I thought she was, uh,I thought she was going crazy,
but no, I was a real harpistcoming in so did he actually
make some of his mother's gooddrugs or something that was
hilarious he?
literally really fell off hisseat.

(24:30):
So funny, um, of course.
Then she passed away and thatthen started this whole other
area of being invited tofunerals and ceremonies and
vigils.
So joy's family rang and saidjoy absolutely adored you and it
literally transformed herjourney of transitioning to the

(24:52):
other side and we'd love it ifyou'd come and play for her
funeral.
And so since then, you knowI've been doing this since 2006,
2005, 2006, I can't justcountless funerals, life
celebrations, vigils.
I've been invited intohospitals after the fact, after
the person has passed away, tocome and sit with the family in

(25:12):
vigil around the person that'spassed.
And so there is this realopportunity.
As much as it can seem like, mygoodness, a lot of your work is
very dark, even in kinesiology Itend to.
It's not necessarily my focus,but I tend to be quite good at
working with trauma, like it's.
One of my specialties isworking with trauma and a lot of

(25:33):
the you know the darkness thatwe all have within us, that we
want to be able to heal or movethrough.
I seem to have just a way ofbeing in dark moments and be
quite fine with it very sadmoments, very upsetting moments,
very challenging moments, and Ifeel like I'm the best version
of myself in those moments,which is wonderful.

Fiona Kane (25:54):
Yeah, that's really good, because some people would
say like I can hear thequestions, because I know that a
lot of people, especially inthe Western world, I feel like
in the Western world we are veryit's very clinical and we're
very separated from death.
We kind of keep it at arm'slength and we don't really like
to talk about it or think aboutit.
And we, yeah, we really don't.

(26:15):
And so I feel like sometimespeople think that would think oh
, going into situations likethat, is that really depressing,
or you know, does it sort ofbring you down or make you feel
depressed, or, you know, is itawful, you know, and that would
be a question that a lot ofpeople would ask.
So what is your response tothat?

Oh, my goodness, I feel like I'm more
alive when I'm sitting withpeople, particularly when they
come into those periods wherethey're actively dying, although
I've spent lots of time withpeople as they're in the
progression of being quitecognitive and being able to talk
with me about how they'refeeling and all those types of

(26:58):
things.
So I've always felt like, as Iwalk into an environment with a
dying person, that it's likethis field that's buzzing with
life because that person is soaware of their mortality that

(27:20):
it's like there's this cracklein the room.
And I found when I was doingsometimes I've spent a lot of my
work in um calvary health carein clogger, out of clogger,
because they've got a fabulous,absolutely fabulous uh,
palliative, um palliative caresort of program there and their

(27:45):
second floor is all palliative.
So I'm not sure how many bedswere there, but I'm sure maybe,
like maybe 40 or 50 to 100, I'mnot sure a lot of palliative
beds in that hospital.
So whenever I would go up tothe second floor, pretty well
everyone on that floor was um atdifferent stages of their, of
their journey, and I I wouldfind that there would be this

(28:09):
anticipation, you know, as youwould come onto the wards I
would often sit for maybe halfan hour at the nurse's station
and my postman's just there.
If you can hear some noises justcalling out, that's okay.
Apologies for that.

(28:29):
Yeah, so I would come and sitat the nervous state nurse's
station about half an hour andtry and just downgrade and just
settle into the instrument,because I'd be, you know, in
traffic for at least an hour.
And the harp is the type ofinstrument where the one
instrument I've played and I'veplayed many instruments over

(28:49):
time where it says you know whatdon't think you can go from
from chaos thinking, frombusyness, from tension and
stress, to playing meeffectively it just.
It's like it says okay, youneed to just sit with me for a
minute and you need to meet mewhere I'm at and it's not

(29:10):
wherever you've been in thetraffic.
So I'd have to come and sitdown and just play and feel what
you know cortisol levels comedown and you just relax into the
instrument and then allow it.
And of course the nurses andeveryone else would be like, oh,
the whole environment starts todo it because they're stressed
as well.
Yeah, yeah and then I'd say tomyself, okay, um, let's see

(29:35):
where we go, and I just pick theharper.
Sometimes I'd start to walkdown the hall and a nurse, would
you know.
They started to get to know howI worked, they got to know how
who needed the help, where,where I could help them, and I'd
get ahoy.
Or I might see a family memberand say, oh, could you come in
here?
Or you'd sort of just getguided and then sit with the

(29:57):
person, play, and usually theplaying might be anywhere from
15, 20 minutes to an hour,depending on what was going on
in the room and then I wouldjust put it down and that person
would just unload and talk orcry or get really angry, but

(30:20):
often they would just want totalk about their lives.
I was this almost like aninvisible person who had no
agenda.
I'd walk in and play.
I didn't even have to because Iwas an intuitive player.
I didn't come in and go.
What music do you want?
I didn't have to think whatthey wanted.
You have to, you know, considerwhether they want this song or

(30:40):
that song.
I'd just sit with them, go,just relax, and I would watch
their body, do what we have todo, finish, and then they would
usually just talk about all thethings that they feel they
couldn't say to their family,yes, or their friends, because
even the dying person doesn'twant to upset everyone by saying
I'm afraid to die yeah I'mactually happy to die, I'm

(31:03):
looking forward to dying.
There's no way they could saythat, maybe, to their family
members, because then they'd saywhy would you say that we don't
want happy to die, I'm lookingforward to dying?
There's no way they could saythat, maybe, to their family
members, because then they'd saywhy would you say that we don't
want you to die?
So I think it was thisprivileged I felt.
Privileged is how I felt withdying people.
I never felt that it was weirdor dark or uncomfortable.
Maybe sometimes there mighthave been slight discomfort,

(31:24):
depending on the reaction that aclient might have.
There might have been slightdiscomfort depending on the
reaction that a client mighthave.
But mostly it was just aprivilege to be in this crucible
of rebirth.
Yeah.
Like a midwife.

Fiona Kane (31:38):
Yeah, yeah, I understand what you're saying.
I haven't done nearly as muchtime as you in those
environments, but when mum wasin palliative I when mum was in
palliative care.
She was in palliative care forI think it was about 23 days and
I was there almost every one ofthose days and I stayed a
couple nights as well, and Iwhat I?
I know what you're saying aboutthe energy.

(32:01):
There is something about theenergy in palliative care and
it's not all bad or anything,it's not and it's.
It's actually quite somethingI've said before.
That kind of might sound ratherstrange, but I feel almost like
I I birthed my mother intodeath yes sort of thing like so
that felt like this profoundexperience where I helped her

(32:23):
pass.
Yes, um so, and she birthed meinto life and I birthed her into
death.
That's kind of how I describeit and it kind of doesn't make
sense, but it sort of does makesense and it feels like a very
there's all the other emotionsand things like that, but at the
time it just feels like a veryprofound shift.
That happens.
But yeah, it's hard, yeah, it'sreally really hard for me to

(32:46):
describe it.
But what you're saying, youunderstand, I do.

And what a gift that you gave your mother,
a profound gift.
Yeah, and.
I think if I could do anythingon this planet, you know, it
would be that there's somethingso beautiful about helping,
helping someone to move youthrough that transition, and I
guess everybody's different inhow that they want to do it.

(33:15):
Um, and it all depends, I think,sometimes on where they're at
in.
You know their pain levels, um,how, how much they've dealt
with.
You know, sometimes if peoplehave got a lot of bitterness or,
um, or they're angry or they'rethey're not coping with the
reality of how it is it.
Can you know, I've noticed overtime that their passing can be

(33:37):
more challenging, more painful,um, but then I've seen other
people who literally, you know,kind of you know normal meetings
with them sit down, play, andthen we'd get to two days or 24
hours before their passing andwe'd walk in the room and it was
like luminous and like itsounds a little bit fluffy or

(33:59):
almost spiritual, but it's likethey're like light coming
through their eyes if they'reblue-eyed, it was like, oh,
bright, they had lots of energy,they were really positive and
it's like this sort of, you know, flipping in and out of two
realities.
It's just absolutelyextraordinary starting to see

(34:20):
other people in the room.

Fiona Kane (34:22):
Yeah, that's the thing, like I don't know.
Obviously people have differentbeliefs around these things and
all the rest of it, and Irespect that.
People have whatever is rightfor them.
But in the way I would describeit personally, the way I
perceive it is, yes, that theyare, in that you see that when
they've got one foot on eitherside, basically yes, and there's
something about that you justsee different signs and things

(34:42):
that kind of make you go, wow,you kind of do know there is
something on the others,whatever it is, but you can sort
of see when people do have kindof make you go, oh, wow, you
kind of do know there issomething on the others,
whatever it is, but you can sortof see when people do have kind
of one foot already.
And.
I don't mean it in a nasty way.
Sometimes it is like you see it, and it's actually a beautiful
thing that you're witnessingwhere you see it?

Yeah, absolutely.
And I think the beauty of beingable to go in as a harpist
number one and as a harpistnumber one and as a musician but
just as a human being, likeoften, I would just enjoy
walking in that room as a humanbeing and sitting with someone
playing.
You know, our particular art isthe art of learning

(35:19):
specifically one-on-one.
So as much as we, you know,there were times where I'd be
invited to come into a loungeroom on the palliative care ward
and there'd be a dozen peoplesitting around having cups of
tea or hand massages.
I really have to give a lot ofcredit to Anne-Marie Trainor,
who was the I'm not sure if shestill is, she may still be the

(35:39):
head of the volunteer departmentat Cogra at that time.
She ran an extremely effectiveand strong volunteer palliative
environment there.
So there were people who wouldcome and do hair massages with
essential oils.
There were hairdressers whowould come around and do hair.

(35:59):
There were people who wouldcome and do facials or whatever.
There were storytellers.
There were people who retiredjournalists or, you know, people
who had written books andauthors and things like that
would come in and help the dyingpeople to write their story to
present to their family.
At the end, they would come andsit with them and talk with
them and make notes or recordtheir stories and then present

(36:23):
their families with thisbeautiful my Life book.
Incredibly creative ways ofworking with people to help them
, you know, journey throughtheir transition of passing, and
the way we, as therapeuticmusicians, are trained to work
is to come in and meet you whereyou're at and have no
expectations of you.
There's no agenda in terms ofI'm going to walk in and go

(36:46):
right, these are my plans foryou in the session today and
these are what the things that Iwant to achieve, which, yeah,
I'm not saying that's bad, andsometimes with music therapy
there can be more of a okay.
So we've got sort of you know,there's plans and there's, you
know, integrating.
I've got certain types of goalsthat I'd like to be able to
make with this person.
Um, that could be functionality, wise, whatever, but our goal

(37:08):
is just to walk in and meet theperson where they're at, in
their environment, and for mepersonally, that meant learning.
Any pieces that I played at thebedside were maybe ancient ones
, or I'd have to learn them byheart, understand your modes
really well so that you had themat your fingertips so you could
move in and out of them.

(37:29):
While you focused on the personnine times out of ten in the
palliative ward, as you wouldhave experienced, they can't
really communicate.
They're at the point where theymay not be able to communicate.
So our, our whole work would beto sit and connect with the
person.
So watch their breathing, watchthe colour, as I was saying
before, what are their handsdoing?

(37:49):
What is their heart rate.
If you can measure it, all ofthose things help us to see.
You know, you might be in thismode, that mode flipping around
a little bit, and then younotice, when you come into
something, the person, theirhands unfurl and one little tear
might come down.
Particularly people with motorneurons and things like that.

(38:10):
They can't even move and yousee this one little tear come
down.
You think okay, and then you'rehaving that ability to lean
into um, lean into whatever thatis.
So it may be the person startssobbing.
Some people might think that'sactually not helpful, but from
my experience, that persondeeply needed to sob, yeah, and

(38:34):
you would get a sense of is thissobbing?
That's painful.
So do we need to shift it andlighten things up a little bit,
or do we lean into this?
and allow them to crack open andjust allow that cathartic
experience to happen.

Fiona Kane (38:49):
Yeah, so you've got to have a sense which it was and
which way to go with it.

Just watch the person you want to be.
I would never want to take myeyes off the person and just be
playing, and you know you getthis sense of like.
Okay, we're in a rhythm hereand we would often use things
like entrainment.
So the specific skills thatthey're taught as therapeutic
musicians, one being entrainment, and a good example of an
entrainment experience that Ihad which was absolutely

(39:16):
extraordinary.
It was a woman in her 40s whowas dying of cancer and I was
playing for someone else at thetime.
Anyway, a nurse came in andsaid oh, you know, a family's
requested that you come down.
We've done everything for thislady.
She's been passing for days anddays, and days and days and
hanging, you know, hanging onand hanging on.
I don't know if you've everknown those people who are like

(39:37):
they should have been gone bynow.
They've had, they've had enoughmorphine to you know.
They can't understand whythey're still hanging on.
And, of course, the question isare they waiting?
for someone?
Is there something that theyneed to understand why they're
still hanging on?
And, of course, the question isare they waiting for someone?
Is there something that theyneed to complete before they're
ready?
Like all the normal questions?

Fiona Kane (39:52):
And a lot of especially mothers, I think,
would be hanging on.
If they've got children ExactlyIn her 40s, her children, if
she had them, would have beenrelatively young, I suppose.
So it's that as well, I think,if they've got people that they
feel like they need to staythere for, or if people want
them to stay.
Yes exactly They've got familythere.
A friend of mine gave me thisexample.
Well, Linda Campbell, we did anepisode on grief and death and

(40:17):
I think she told a story I thinkof, maybe I won't.
I can't remember what story shetold, so I won't go into the
full detail, but put it this wayone relative saying to the
other relative don't go, don'tgo, don't go.
Yes.

And so if you've got that going on, it
also would make it very hard togo Absolutely, and I can't tell
you how many people would comeand say to me you know what it's
so strange.
I walked out of the room tomake a cup of tea and they went.
I went to the bathroom and theywent.
I've been sitting here for daysand days and days, 24 hours a
day, seven days a week.
I wouldn't leave them because Idon't want them to be alone
when they go.

Fiona Kane (40:54):
Yeah.

And the minute I stepped out to ask for
something, it's like I thinkthat connection sometimes is so
strong that they don't want togo while you're there and they
can't.

Fiona Kane (41:05):
Yeah, I've had care nurses say that to me as well.
And so we sort of had one pointwhere we like we would leave
the room regularly and give muma break from us as well.
Yeah, but, also a chance oflike okay, she needs to be
without us, that's right, butthen we would go back in as well
.
But we also kind of just wetold her that it was okay to go,
Like we actually just said Ican go.

I think that's important.
And I had that exact sameexperience with my own father, I
think he resisted and resistedand resisted and in the end I
had to have a conversation withhim and say you know what, dad,
it's okay, like it's okay to go,and I know you're probably I
thought he's probably worriedabout this and this and this and
this and the planes and the,this and the.
We've got it, I'll sort it,we'll sort it, yeah.

(41:50):
Yeah, it's going to be okay.

Fiona Kane (41:51):
I came in with mum, I had to just tell her those
things that I probably worriedabout my sister and my brother
and this and that and whatever.
And she was worried about meand so I was like you know is
you know, I just told her allthe things that I you would
normally tell someone who wasworried about the situation.
This is sort of that sort of.
This is sort of that sort ofyou can go when you're ready,

(42:12):
it's all right, it's.
You can just let all that gonow, it's all sorted.
And it's like you know, I my, myaunt and my um grandma had
already passed, so I just kepttelling her that you know she
can go to them when she's ready,that sort of thing.
But yeah, sometimes she justneeded to be told look, it's all
, okay, you can put it down,it's all, okay, I'm going to
sort those things.

And you're probably thinking, oh my
goodness, what's going to happenwith that and what's going to
happen with this?
And you know a very short sidestory when my dad passed away,
which I I find absolutelyhilarious and I'm sure he would
too.

(42:53):
So he hung on and hung on, andhung on.
I had that conversation withhim and then I just remember
turning away from the bed tolook, because he was in Orange
Base Hospital, to look out atthe.
You know, they had a nice view,actually quite a nice view.
Look out the window.
And 30 seconds as I walked Ilooked away, looked back.
30 seconds as I walked, Ilooked away, looked back and a
nurse was coming in the um, inthe room to put those really big

(43:13):
adult size nappies on.
You know, because, you know, aswe know, as we come to close to
passing, you know, we lose ourbodily functions and things like
that.
And my dad was old school andhe certainly wouldn't be into
wearing, uh, an adult size sizenappy.
And we had a really good,almost dark sense of humor at
size where we could laugh at the.
You know, laugh at them.
And I turned and I said, well,dad, you better get going.

(43:37):
They're about to put these, youknow, big, big nappies on you.
You better look out.
And I literally I kid you notthat he took his last breath.

Fiona Kane (43:46):
I think he totally agreed you better look out,
they're coming in.
I kid you not that he took hislast breath.
I think he totally agreed.

You better look out.
They're coming in with thesebig nappies, and that was it.

Fiona Kane (43:51):
I'm out of here.

He's like you know what?
You've convinced me, I'm done.
So I still laugh about that andthink the final thing that I
said to my dad, you know, wasyou better look out.
They're coming for you withthose big pappies.
You know, and some people mighteven find that offensive, but
he and I had that was therelationship that we had, where
we could have a dig and have alaugh, but ultimately, yes.

(44:16):
So, coming back around to that40-year-old lady, so I'm invited
to come in and the room wasfilled and I'm talking maybe 20
people all standing around thiswoman's bed and people holding
her hand each side and herhusband on one side.

Fiona Kane (44:35):
And what if she was having trouble letting go?

then, Right, just surrounded, and everyone's
saying look, you know she'ssuffering and she's been hanging
on.
She hasn't been able tocommunicate for days later and
we're ready for her to go.
And you know, we've done it.
Everyone's come, everyone'shere.
There's nothing that we canthink of.
Is there any way that this, themusic enough to relax her to go

(44:59):
?
And I said well, are you readyfor her to go?
They said yes.
I said okay, because I'm notcalled the angel of death in
here for no reason.
You know, I'd be walking aroundthere because in the end often
I'd come in and I'd play andpeople would pass and so, as
much as you know, people wouldhave a laugh at me and say was

(45:19):
it that good or that bad?

Fiona Kane (45:22):
The grim reaper.

Right so you'd come in, and whether the music
just helped to relax them to apoint where they could finally
let go.
I don't know, um, but I said tohim look, I, I do have a
reputation, so if you're ready,then do you want me to explain
what we're going to do?
And they said yeah, and it wasactually so fabulous because
this whole room of people werealmost upbeat about it.

(45:46):
They were ready and justthey're like you know what?
We just want to support her, tohave the best passing that she
can have.
So, okay, we're going to dothis thing called entrainment,
and what entrainment is is thatwe actually are going to.
So she was in active dying,which I don't know if your mum
did this, but often they becomeit's almost like this breathing
that can become quite rattly,yeah, um, and quite disturbing

(46:08):
for most.
Most people find that reallydisturbing.

Fiona Kane (46:11):
It sounds really hard and it is.
It's quite you if you feelquite stressed listening to it
and the nurse is saying, oh no,no, it's fine, but it feels like
it's really hard for them yeah,and it sounds like there's
fluid in the lung or somethingand there you know all that kind
of thing.

So you know, it's one of those things that I
think.
Of all the things that upsetpeople, it's number one.
Seeing someone suffer.
That's not nice, yes, and forme obviously my own father that
was harder than, obviously, justa person, a different person.
I didn't know.
So we're going to do thisimportant training, which means,
basically, I'm going to matchher breathing.

(46:51):
So if her breathing for that,you know this kind of thing
going on and it's repetitive,like a freight train just goes
and goes, and goes and goes.
So what we're going to do isI'm going to start playing and
I'm going to match the rhythm ofher breathing and it might take
me might take me 10, 15 minutesto get into, like where

(47:13):
musicians will know, some peoplemight know when they're
listening to a particular pieceof music and they get into.
It's like something that lockswhen you're, when you're truly
in a um, like a momentum, orit's like this beautiful synergy
of a rhythm.
So in the zone into that.
Yeah, it's like in a zone, right.
So we, we, we match, I'll matchrhythm with her and then what

(47:36):
we'll do over maybe a 15 minuteperiod is I'm gonna really
slowly drag back, I'm going toslow down ever so, like not even
noticeably and without fail.
People follow you.
So you know you're playing likethis and then you slowly,
slowly, slow down to the pointwhere you get down to maybe just

(47:58):
ringing out one note.
You know whatever that note,you know you play around a
little bit and you find thatthere's one particular boom.
You might hit on a d orsomething and just let it ring
out and even slow that down tothe point where it's completely
arrhythmic.
And this woman went from freighttrain within you know, 20-30
minute period to literally, youknow, into all this silence.

(48:21):
And you imagine, so often whenyou you break into that with the
music and it's like people getreally present, the silence is
so loud, it's deafening, it'sthere's like this silence in the
room.
That's like it would happen tome, not every time, but every

(48:41):
now and then you'd sit withsomeone and get them to that
place where they were ready topass and you'd be ringing out
that one note and the silencewas so loud and you can see
everyone standing on the edge.
So she'd be like and then itmight be maybe 30 seconds
between breaths and then itwould go to maybe 40 seconds in

(49:03):
between breaths and just lettingthat ring out again to the
point where we're all standingthere like holding our breath,
thinking, is this it?
Like watching like anon-the-edge-of-your-seat
television series, and wethought it had been a good
minute, a minute and a half, andeveryone just breathed out and

(49:24):
went oh, that's it, like it wasjust all this relief and but
smiles right oh my god, that wasincredible.
And then she goes right aftereveryone and then, of course,
they broke out in hysterics.
They broke out in hysterics,right, and they said that'd be
right.
She always had to have the lastword.

(49:46):
Apparently she had a habit ofjust when you think you know you
got the, she would come in.
The whole room is in justhysterics, laughing and holding
each other and crying withlaughter.
And then, of course, that washer last breath and the joy in
that room.
I'm'm not here to say that itwas because of me, but

(50:09):
collectively, what we created inthat room was transforming that
woman's final moments from oneof extreme grief and sadness and
pain, not to say that theywon't also continue to go
through their grief, but thefeedback I would get from people
after the fact, in cards orphone calls or at their funerals

(50:31):
, was just like.
That just changed my mother'stransition into this magical
moment that I'll never forgetand that just happened over and
over and over in all thesedifferent ways, whether it be
sometimes people in hystericsand laughing, sometimes it was
people crying, but it was.

(50:51):
It was something where thetears would come in this
wholesome like otherworldly waythat helped people to free from
the pain of the passing, more so, just feeling the emotion and
the beauty, bringing the beauty,the beauty back to death,
because actually death can bestunningly beautiful.

Fiona Kane (51:13):
Yeah, it's one of those things that is kind of
beautiful and ugly at the sametime.
If you know what I mean, yes, Ido know what you mean.
The physicalness of it.
Yes, and sometimes thephysicalness can be not that
very not nice, you know, butthere's.

there's also a beauty and ethereal something,
some other level beauty,something at the same time
that's so well said and you know, I often think about when my
grandmother did pass um.
I wasn't there when she died,but obviously as soon as she did
, you know, pass away, I made myway there and I said to my dad

(51:48):
I want to go, I want to go seeher.
At the, I didn't have a viewingright.
No one else wanted to have aviewing and I don't know why,
but the um, maybe the, thefuneral parlor, just didn't
expect to have a viewing, sothey didn't do the normal work
that they would do to havesomeone presentable for viewing

(52:09):
right now.
At that stage I had not seen adie.
I mean, I was only in my 20s atthat time, so I'd not seen a
person die.
I hadn't been introduced todeath.
Yes, I don't think I'd evenseen someone interviewing at
that stage.
And my grandmother, my father'smother, was an angelic little
old lady who I'm sure shefancied herself to be the queen.

(52:31):
She just looked like you know,had that hair and wore that kind
of cloth.
She was just angelic andbeautiful.
And so I said, no, I've got togo see her, I've got to go say
goodbye.
So it was my first experienceof seeing a person in death
saying goodbye, goodbye.
So it was my first experienceof seeing a person dead in death
and so we go to this funeralparlor and the gentleman said oh

(52:52):
, just so, you know, mum's notlooking very good, so prepare
yourself for that.
How's that gonna be?
Well, my only way to describewhat I saw when I walked in that
door and they opened thatcoffin was you know that
painting, the Scream.
You know the one with theperson with their mouth open and

(53:14):
they're on a pier or something.
I think it's called the Scream,but I can't remember.
I think it is yeah, and mygrandmother?
Because they didn't put herteeth in, they didn't close her
mouth.
Her eyes were open, yes, and itwas all that.
Death can the worst that deathcan look like, or not?

(53:36):
be worse, but what it can looklike right yeah, it's quite
confronting and I just rememberbeing so traumatised by that so
I just sobbed, not because shewas dead but because I couldn't

(53:57):
recognise her, yeah, and it justlooked like a horror.
It looked to me like a horrorfilm and it was just horrible, a
horrible experience, right, andthe interesting thing about it
was, I remember years later,after I'd been inspired to

(54:17):
interestingly continue withpalliative work, even after that
experience, I thought I wantedto continue to do it and I was
in my early, early days oftraining with that certification
and we had to do quite a lot ofclinical hours at the bedside
to be certified.
And I was invited to go into aroom with a woman who had no

(54:39):
family really common, no family,no loved ones.
Um, she was alone and they said, oh, would you go sit with this
woman?
She's basically she's active,she could go any time.
Would you like to go sit withher?
So I went in and the minute Iwalked in that door it was this
woman.
She was still alive, but shelooked exactly like my

(55:04):
grandmother looked that day.
Exactly like my grandmotherlooked that day.
And I remember just feeling,you know, all of the body just
saying, oh, you're rememberingthat trauma and going through
that and how confronting it is.
Yes, it's really confronting,like the one thing about death
is like how extraordinarilyconfronting it is.
Yeah.
And to walk in and feelconfronted and to sit down and

(55:27):
just, I just remember, evenasking my you know, it's like
you know what, man, thank youfor giving me the opportunity to
have already.
I've already seen this beforeand now I can.
I can be here for this womanwho's still here, in a way that
I couldn't be for her at thetime and just sat and played and

(55:50):
I think I cried because I feltlike I was releasing all of
those associations with theugliness of death, yes, the
ugliness of death, and howfearful we are of death.
We're terrified of a dying bodyto the point where I'd often,

(56:10):
you know, I had a fewexperiences where I'd have my
little harp and I'd jump intothe lift to go up to the second
floor and there could be staffthat had not met me before.
They might be coming in.
Just, you know, replacementstaff or something didn't know
who I was.
They're like oh, where are yougoing?
Oh, I'm going up to level two,and they'd say, but they're

(56:32):
dying up there.
I'd say they're currentlyliving up there.
So there was this undercurrentof why would you do that?
They're dying, or they're notcommunicating anymore.
So what's the point?
Or, um, all of those thingsthat would come with it.

(56:52):
So I guess what the harp or themusic would actually help to do
is just to help to bring thatpalette of color, um, and beauty
and dignity, yes, back to ahuman being, that, um, as much
as we can physically be, youknow, not looking our best,
let's say that.
Yes.

(57:13):
But there's certainly somethingvery unconditional in being
present to that and seeing thebeauty beyond that, which is
what I think any of the artswith palliative can do.
Actually, the Irish dopalliative care very well.
They understand that you needthe bard and the poet at the

(57:35):
bedside.

Fiona Kane (57:38):
And actually I feel like in some ways it might sound
a bit weird, but birth anddeath are similar in that way,
in that I think birth can bequite ugly I've been present for
two births can be quite uglyand also amazing and beautiful
and life-changing.
And all of these beautifulthings at the same time.
So I just think it's either end.
At either end there's kind ofthis realness and potential

(58:01):
ugliness to it, but there's alsothis other, this beauty or this
um hard to put your finger onthing that is is bigger than any
.
It's as do you know thatsomething is happening that's
way bigger than you, that's waybigger than anything and that's
way more powerful than anythinglike it's just that awareness,
and I don't know if it's becauseat both ends you're also
there's a like, there's a portalopening kind of thing, and at

(58:23):
both ends so there's aconnection with the other side
or something.
I don't know what it is, butthere's something that feels
quite momentous or quite big ateither end of those experiences.

Absolutely, and I think, yeah, I think it's
to me some of the best hours ofmy life have been sitting with
people who are dying, um, andlike just their bravery, and
that I don't know.
I suppose I've just always beenthat person that was never
necessarily afraid to ask ourhard questions because of, like,

(59:00):
just my fascination, and so I'dsit with someone and say, why
does it feel like to die?
What?
What do you think about?
Or you know, like trying to putyourself in their shoes and
understand, or you know they'dsit and tell you stories about
their life or their regrets,like one of the things that they
would regret.
That's usually, that's neverthe things that we think we

(59:21):
would regret, like it's a bitcliche, but it's like they're
never regretting making more,you know, not making enough
money, yes, or all thosedifferent things, um, this,
there's usually a lot of regretsaround.
Gosh, I worry so much and whydid I stress out so much about
life and why did I.

Fiona Kane (59:39):
Why did I worry so much about things that didn't
matter, that kind of thing thatdidn't.

Yeah, they really didn't matter.
And um and so thing, yeah, theyreally didn't matter.
And so I had just lots ofteachers, so in that way where
they tell you but obviously themusic is also wonderful.
We talked about neonates aswell.
I spent some time at Westmeadin the neonate ward and that was
fabulous because in PalliativeHealth you don't have a lot of

(01:00:05):
the electrical assistance so youknow heart rates or oxygen
monitors and things like that,so you can see all sorts of
deeper ways that the music ishelping.
But, um, to come in and sit withyou know little babies in the
NICU who you know you sort of go, oh wow, like sitting and
playing various pieces andnoticing their blood oxygen
levels increasing.

(01:00:25):
You know, as we're sitting withthem, some of the babies I had
experiences where you probablyknow that some babies find it
hard to suckle or to you knowhaving trouble to suckle and
things like that.
Of course I'd come and sit andthe nurse was like don't leave
yet, because as soon as I'd stopplaying they'd stop suckling.
All these just beautifulexperiences where you just
realize like the music justhelps to to calm people and

(01:00:50):
center people.
But I'm here to tell you it'snot all rainbows and unicorns.
At times, um, I have had people.
You imagine, if you're on yourdeath door, I don't, I mean not
to this day I often ask myselfwhat, how, how I be?
Will I be angry, will I bebitter?
Will I be scared?
And a lot of people areprobably all of those things and
I have had.

(01:01:11):
I remember one experience I cameinto a four-bedded room and
that's why we often really liketo be able to, in most
circumstances, try to have it bea one-on-one service because,
as you can imagine, each andevery person has different needs
yeah they're in different moods, they're in different stages,

(01:01:31):
they're in different pain levels, and someone who's feeling down
I wouldn't want to necessarilycome in and start playing a
piece that's in a mode thatsounds a little minor or a
little bit sad or something likethat.
So, and vice versa, someonewho's feeling really sometimes,
someone who actually reallyneeds a good cry, don't want to

(01:01:54):
hear anything.
Mary, they're thinking this isjust, you know, irritating yeah
so I came into a four-beddedroom which is not always ideal
because then you've got otherpeople in the space and this
young man invited me to play forhis mother, who hadn't been
able to sleep from what he wasin.
Look, she has not slept for aweek.
She's just constantly groaningand sighing in pain and

(01:02:16):
suffering, suffering on aspiritual level.
There's like a spiritualsuffering, yes.
And so I said okay, let's comein and see what we can do.
And he decided to sit at herfeet and massage her feet, and I
came and sat by her and westarted to play, and it took us
about half an hour that shestarted to go off to sleep and

(01:02:38):
he's sitting at her feet goingoh my.
God, you could see he was elatedbecause, for the first time,
drugs wouldn't help, thiswouldn't help.
But she was going off to sleepand we were both like, oh my God
, this is fabulous.
Anyhow, to our great dismay,diagonally there was an elderly
woman and out of nowhere shesaid well, she didn't just say,

(01:03:02):
she screamed you are torturingme, right.
And you could feel the whole,because everyone else in the
room were like, because therewas families and people who were
quite enjoying it, they werefine with it and because we're
getting results with this lady.

Fiona Kane (01:03:21):
But whatever I was doing with this lady was Having
the opposite effect on the otherlady, was it?
Was stirring something up nowunderstandably.

Angela Sciberras (01:03:31):
It could have been stirring up her pain.
It could have been stirring upher sadness, her fear.
Yes, I don't know, but she wasreally, really angry and and I'm
and then I'm experiencingfeeling torn, thinking this
woman's about to get results,but I don't.
If I continue to stay here anddo this, it's going to upset the

(01:03:52):
whole room, yeah, so I justsaid okay, I understand, I'll be
finished in a moment, and youknow.
And of course, she sat therewith a red face and turning
around everything, I justthought, oh, my goodness, like
it was.
It was.
That was confronting andpainful for me, because here I
am, with my heart on my sleeve,sitting here playing harp for

(01:04:12):
this woman, and this woman waslivid about it.
So there are days where thathappens and, bit by bit, you
come to the place where you canunderstand.
You know what that's okay.

The truth is that our health isn't always needed
or wanted or the right thing atthe right time, and it's just
knowing that.
That's just not always going tobe everyone's cup of tea.
That's exactly right.
I'm just I'm really aware oftime.
Of course.
It's so interesting.
I've been wanting to keep thisgoing because it's so
interesting.

If we get some interest, we might be able to
do a heartbeat sometime.

Yeah, yeah, that would be really great.
Look, look, one thing that Ireally appreciate about, uh,
about palliative care, about endof life, is it is so real and
it's a bad thing about it.
But it's a good thing about itbecause usually by the time
people get there, it's very realand so all the pretenses are
gone.
It doesn't matter, actually,whether you were a billionaire
or whether you were famous, orwhether you were the best

(01:05:14):
looking person or whether, likeit doesn't matter, none of that
matters.
It's kind of the great, greatequalizer, isn't it?
because once you get there onceyou get there it's just uh, it's
largely real.
And sometimes that means bad,as in that lady in some.
Well, not bad necessarily, butjust a not pleasant experience
for you.
And sometimes that means lotsof beautiful conversations and

(01:05:35):
insights and lots of beautifulexperiences.

Oh, 99.999% of my experiences were
extraordinary.
And there were a few.
There were a few.
I had one lady who every time Ihadn't even gone into her room,
but every time I walked pastshe'd go there's that effing
harpist again, oh my God.
And I ended up having to havesome talking to one of the
bereavement ladies out there andsay, oh my gosh, I don't know

(01:05:59):
what to do about this lady.
I don't even know her and whatam I?
And I was taking it allpersonally because you know,
because it's all about me, notthe person dying in that room.
And anyway, the lady said ohlook, she has a brain tumour and
it's just what she does.
Yeah, so next time I'm in thereand you come past.

(01:06:21):
Anyway, she said some daysshe's sweet, no problem
whatsoever.
Other days she's got somethinggoing on cognitively and it's
it's not just you, it's thegardener, or it's like yeah,
yeah it's funny how we you knowit equalizes all of us, all of
us in the room as well, becausesuddenly I'm here going.
Oh, it's about me, isn't?

it, oh my god get off yourself there's so much
going on there that it's likethat's the thing too.
It's not about us anymore andit just all the other stuff that
doesn't matter kind of fadesaway when you're in that and my
mom made dogs and they had atherapy dog that used to go
around the ward, I think, and Iused to.
They said, don't, don't take itinto mom.
And sometimes I took the doorand she talked to them from the
door.
Oh, what sort of breed is that?
What's it?

but she was happy with the thing at the door
and she was happy with itmoving on, it wasn't her cup of
tea, you know Other people wouldlove the dog, you know.
I had a lady like this is thething that used to blow my mind.
There was a woman who was amusic therapist so a trained
music therapist and she wouldcome out a couple of days a week

(01:07:22):
.
She had an electric keyboardand she had this big bag full of
shakers and little bangers andall sorts of whistles and fizzle
and she would go in and she hadI don't know four or five big,
thick books of music from everydecade so that she could walk in
and sit down with someone saywhat's your favorite music, and

(01:07:43):
she'd sit up there and playwhatever they wanted pretty well
, like karaoke a bit and I'dwalk past the room and this
woman would have a person whowas, you know, on death's door
shaking a shaker while she'ssinging the Beatles, and I'm
like that was my definition ofhell on earth.
I couldn't think of anythingworse, personally, right.

(01:08:04):
Although she had them.
They were loving it they wereenjoying it.
They were loving it, right.
And we often would meet in thehallways because I would always
go in musicless.
I didn't want to have the musicget in the way of the
connection Two totally differentways of working.
She had great results with howshe worked, but I couldn't give

(01:08:26):
it any worse.
And then she often would say tome how do you walk in there
without a stitch of music?
That's terrifying.
And so she would often say tome how do you do that?
How isn't that?
What are you doing in there?
How does that work?
So we all have our nuances andour ways of working, which would
be great, yeah.

And do you actually still do?

this work.
Yes, so um not as regularly outin the bigger hospitals, but I
I because I guess I've you knowthe word gets around um.
I get a lot of private um callsnow so I'll have people um call
me.
Sometimes I'll go down to ahospital in North Shore,
sometimes Blacktown, sometimesit depends where people make the
call to come.
Obviously there's people whoknow me family, friends,

(01:09:10):
whatever I'll come and do thatwork and I'm hoping because I
know Penrith is opening a brandnew palliative unit next year I
think it is sometime it's beingbuilt.
We don't actually have, wouldyou believe, a palliative
specific unit unit in Canberra.
I find that absolutelymind-boggling.

But they're building one, I think, on this thing
elsewhere.
That's a suburb in the westernSydney.
That's huge.
It's so much a city really nowit is a city and it is no
palliative care there.
That seems ridiculous.

So there's palliative, but it's not like
they have a um, a dedicated, uh,dedicated unit or ward.
So they'll have wards thatobviously have palliative people
in them, but different to howthe incredible wards up in konga
where it was definitelypalliative dedicated yes um, so
they're building one in penrithand I've um put my throwing my

(01:10:03):
hat over the over the wall tosay, hey, this, this, this could
be incredible for Penrith.
Have me come in and do the work.
Obviously, just for me going tothe hospitals that really
support the work to get out toCroghra we're talking a two-hour
trip out there and a two-hourtrip and it just gets too much
when you're trying to run clinicand all the rest.
So now I do a lot of one-on-onecalled in like that sort of
thing.
So now I do a lot of one-on-onecalled in like that sort of

(01:10:24):
thing.
A lot of funerals, a lot ofceremonies.
I'm brought in by places likeWarrinora eastern suburbs to do
a lot of their candle lightingceremonies and things like that.
Just, I guess you know, whenyou come onto that side of the
industry where it's all aboutdeath and dying, that's where
all your gigs come from.
Yeah, so people say, gosh, allyour gigs are pretty morbid.
So people say, gosh, your gigsare pretty morbid.
No, they're fabulous andthey're an honour and they're

(01:10:47):
beautiful.

So if people want to get a hold of you, obviously
I'll put your details in theshow notes.

Yes.

What's one or two examples you can give?

Yeah, so you can find me on Facebook as
Angela Skibberis, my name, orthe kinesiologist with a Z.
So Instagram is the same, thekinesiologist with a Z.
So it's the same, thekinesiologist with a Z, the
kinesiologist with a Z Skibras,angela Skibras.
It's S-C-I-B-E-R-R-A-S, but ifyou Google me, you'll find me.

And I'll put all the details in the show notes as
well.
So if you can't remember any ofthis, just go to the show notes
and the links will be there.

I just want to thank you again for today.
It's just been like I've justbeen so interested I didn't want
to stop.
But we have to stop.
I can go keep going, that's forsure.
I think it was a real privilegeand a pleasure.

I just enjoyed it so much thank you, yeah, thanks, I
just really appreciate.
I just really appreciateinteresting stories and just
learning about things I don'tknow much about, and connecting
and all of that.
I love it.
So thank you again, my pleasureand thank you for everybody who
is listening or watching athome.
Please remember to like,subscribe, share and rate this
podcast so we can get morepeople to learn, learn all of

(01:12:03):
these, just connect with otherhuman beings and learn so much
about life and death and all ofthe things in between.
This is a podcast where we havereal conversations about things
that matter.
So thank you everyone and I'llsee you all again next week.
Thanks, bye.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 90 Angela's Journey from Musician to Healer and End-of-Life Harpist

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Episode 90 Angela's Journey from Musician to Healer and End-of-Life Harpist

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