January 21, 2025 • 29 mins
Most of us will be in a care giver role at some time in our lives with children, partners or aging parents. My personal experience is with aging parents. In this episode I begin to explore the realities of being a caregiver, exploring the emotional and practical challenges involved in this vital role. I discuss the balance between managing responsibilities for loved ones while also prioritising your own wellbeing.
Learn more about booking a nutrition consultation with Fiona: https://informedhealth.com.au/
Learn more about Fiona's speaking and media services: https://fionakane.com.au/
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Credit for the music used in this podcast:
The Beat of Nature
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fiona Kane (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection.
I'm your host, Fiona Kane, andtoday I want to talk about being
a carer.
It's a role that I've been inon and off over the last few
years with my parents, and it'sa role that many people are in
in all different situations.
It might be parents, partners,obviously children and maybe
(00:24):
people in their community aswell.
And I just really I suppose,because on this podcast, what I
like to do is have realconversations about things that
matter.
I just see it so much in thecommunity at the moment, so many
people talking about it and howhard it is, so I just wanted to
bring up the conversation andjust start a discussion.
I wish I had all the answersfor you now.
(00:44):
I could tell you some of thethings that I do to manage
myself through these times, butevery situation obviously is
unique and it's all a bitdifferent for everybody, so
you've got to figure it outbased on what your needs are and
based on what's going on foryou.
But I just wanted to start thisconversation because being a
carer can be really hard, and soI just wanted to talk about the
(01:08):
ins and outs of it and some ofmy experiences, and really just
to you know, if anything,sometimes just knowing that
other people are experiencingsome of the same things or
thinking the same things,whatever it can just be helpful
to know that you're not alone,you're not the only one going
through this, and I think it'san important topic because it
(01:28):
really does affect our physicaland mental health.
So that's why I wanted to bringthis up today and also I try
and be transparent to a certaindegree about what's going on for
me and my life, because I thinkthat you can tap into the
things that you know or you areexperiencing.
At the same time, I don'talways tap into it, because I
(01:52):
may not be ready myself at thetime, depending on where I'm at
with the experience, or I maynot tap into it due to just
being like confidentiality andprivacy of other individuals
involved, being likeconfidentiality and privacy of
other individuals involved.
So I will talk about this tothe level that I feel that I can
, without talking about people'sprivate business, if you know
(02:13):
what I mean.
So, yeah, so sometimes, like Ilike to be, I want to be just
telling the truth of who I amand where I'm at with things,
because I think that just helpsyou know where I'm coming from
with things Doesn't mean I'malways right about stuff, but it
just gives you an idea of wheremy thought process is coming
from and my experiences, butalso I'd love to hear your
(02:34):
experiences as well, and moreand more I might get people on
to talk about this topic,because I think it's actually a
really important topic andobviously I'm a woman in my 50s,
so it's a really common issuefor people of my age, and what
is even more typical than in mycase is that it's what's called
(02:54):
the sandwich generation.
So the sandwich generation isgenerally people who have
children, and then they alsohave parents and they're often
caring for both.
Right, so I don't have children, and you might perceive that as
a good thing or a bad thing,and I think that that's one of
those things.
It means I don't have to carefor children as well, but it
also means I don't have anyonewho might potentially care for
(03:15):
me, because sometimes if youhave grown children, they might
support you a little bit whileyou're supporting a parent.
So everything in life has gotits potential positive,
potential negatives, and everysituation is unique.
So good, bad, whatever.
It just is right.
But many people are managingtheir children and managing
their parents, and it might bemanaging their children and
(03:36):
their grandchildren and theirparents and their job and all of
the things, and it can just bereally, really tough.
So the thing about being acarer is sometimes it it builds
up over time and people do thisfor many, many, many years, but
and sometimes it kind of there'sa dramatic change, something
happens and uh, which is whathappened for me most recently,
(03:57):
is just something happens tosomeone in your life and
suddenly you're thrust into acarer role that you, you know,
weren't quite ready for orwhatever.
And the challenge, one of thebiggest challenges I well,
there's a few challenges, butone of the challenges I find
especially caring for anyonewho's of the baby boomer
(04:18):
generation, which is largely myparents' generation.
Is that generation and, look,this might be the case, everyone
might say this about theirparents when I'm the older one
and whatever, whatever.
So I don't know if it's aboutthat generation or if it's just
about the experience of thisexperience just in general,
whenever it happens, but is alot of people of that generation
(04:43):
you know, and I don't thinkit's that generation you know,
and not anything of thatgeneration, to be honest.
But people you spend your wholelife creating, trying to create
a certain amount of freedom foryourself, right.
So agency and freedom where youcan do what you want to do and
you make your own choices andyou know you're an adult and
you're just doing your own thingright.
And one of the really hard,really really tough things that
(05:06):
would seem from observing and Ithink it's true is about getting
older and maybe starting tohave, or not even just getting
older, but when people have orstart to have, health problems
or challenges that mean thatthey require a certain level of
care, is you can lose a certainlevel of agency and a certain
level of the ability to makechoices, you know, because you
(05:32):
can't just do what you want,because you might be relying on
a carer to take you to the placeor make the food or do the
shopping or whatever it is right, and so suddenly you don't have
the same agency or also freedomthat you once had.
So that's really really hardfor the person being cared for.
It's also really really hardfor the person, the carer,
(05:54):
because as a carer, one of thereally tough things is what you
don't want to do is you don'twant.
You want people to have dignityand you want people to have
agency and you want people tofeel like they're still making
choices for themselves andthey're still you know, it's
still their life right, tryingto balance that with what they
actually need and how much theyneed for you to do and how much
(06:17):
you might need to be interferingin their life.
You know you might need to be,you know, paying their bills or
organizing their insurance, orgetting something fixed in the
house or doing their groceryshopping or cooking their meals,
and when you do that, it'snever going to be the way they
would have done it.
And there is a certain loss ofagency there because you might
(06:39):
be making the decision or youmight have to.
You're the one in the situationthat has to sort of make the
decision about spending theirmoney or the decision about
something to do with their careor whatever.
So it's really really hardbecause you're trying to balance
that.
Okay, I've got to get stuff doneand sometimes you've got a
minimum amount of time you getthere to them and you've got
like 50 things on your list thatyou need to check off before
(07:02):
you go back to, in my case, backto my business, back to my own
life, back to my own husband andback to my own home and all of
my responsibilities.
So I will go to be with thisrelative and I'll have like 50
things on my list I have to getdone right.
So you just got to get done.
And then, at the same time,though, you have to consider
(07:22):
their agency, and you know, soit's really is that that can be
a really challenging thing juston its own, because you don't
want to offend or insult theperson or upset them or cross
boundaries or make them feel bad, but at the same time, you've
got to help them and you've gotto get stuff done right so that
that, just on its own, can justbe really really hard.
Uh, the other thing that'sreally really hard, obviously,
(07:44):
uh, and like all the practicalthings, like just knowing about
like in australia it's called myaged care that you can kind of
get support, uh, but there's allyou know understanding how it
works, understanding how thesystem works, understanding what
to apply for, how to apply forit and um, so it's got all this
hair in my face.
It's really annoying me.
Um, sorry for those, visuallyit's probably annoying watching
(08:04):
me, because I've been justbrushing the hair out of my face
.
I just had to name it and moveit.
But yeah, so all of the justpractical things like my
relative was suddenly inhospital emergency situation and
then suddenly out of hospital alittle bit earlier than
expected, and trying to swinginto action and figure out, well
(08:26):
, what are all the services thatare available and how can we
get the nursing support we needand this support and that
support and these tools andthose items that we might need,
and this sort of you know allthe things right, and so all of
that is really really tricky.
Suddenly, you're trying tofigure out the system in your
country or your state or yourcity or whatever, about what
(08:47):
might be available.
It's a situation too where, ifyou are super wealthy or the
person who's super wealthy,maybe from that point of view it
might be easier because you canget all the nursing you need
and all the equipment you needand whatever.
You could actually just paypeople to go and find all that
for you and do all that for you.
But for for most people,there's a situation where, to a
(09:09):
certain level, you might berelying on any sort of you know
free services or subsidizedservices, government type
services and things like that,which is what my experience has
been, and so it's just reallytricky just navigating those
things.
And also in this country I'vetalked about it before with
other people I've been talkingto in guests on my podcast,
(09:31):
talking about things like NDIS,which is our National Disability
Insurance Scheme.
So anyway, we've got all thesedifferent schemes and and health
services and things, which someof them are really good.
By the way, some of them are.
They're all problematic becausethere's no perfect system, but
some of them actually, I mustacknowledge, are really really
good.
Like we have something calledhospital in the home and that is
(09:52):
a service where, for a week, Ihad access to a doctor on the
phone but also a nurse that wascoming out and did come out
regularly to assess things andto fix things.
And to you know, the nursewould come out and kind of say,
oh yeah, you're right, thisright, this is going on, that's
going on.
Okay, this isn't right.
That nurse would ring thedoctor, have a long conversation
(10:12):
with the doctor, make anarrangement for a prescription
to be changed or something to bechanged.
They'd send that off to thepharmacy and you know our
pharmacy, you know, would changethe you know the Webster packs
with the medications and thingslike that.
So great service.
So there are some greatservices like that, but just
like even knowing what they areand where to get them from, how
(10:33):
to get you know all of thatstuff is really, really
challenging.
And then on top of that, you'vegot the other level of you know
if this is a close relative toyou or someone who you're close
to, which it probably is, ifyou're caring for them.
There's actually just a sadnessof watching people decline or
of watching people lose theiragency and their freedom, and
(10:58):
the last thing you want to do isbe stepping on all that.
But sometimes you sort of haveto, because it's just how a
carer's role is sometimes, so itcan just be really sad as well
watching people start to becomefrail, watching people start to
have big challenges and thingsand I haven't dealt with this
one, but it's one that I seethere's some people around me
(11:20):
experiencing is dealing withpeople with dementia as well
that that must be so tough towatch people and in the case,
one of the cases I'm aware ofaround me is just someone who's
really physically well butdementia is a problem and that's
also a really sad thing toobserve and be involved in, sort
(11:42):
of things.
So being a carer has so manydifferent levels of challenge.
It's got the level of challengeof understanding bureaucracies
and systems and health systemsand healthcare, and then it's
like understanding health stuff.
I mean, I understand a lot ofhealth stuff because I'm in the
industry and even I find a lotof it really tough.
So I can't even begin toimagine if you don't know the
first thing, if you don't knowthe difference between your
(12:03):
kidney and liver and whatever,then it must be really really
hard to understand this stuff.
Because I understand a lot ofthat and I still a lot of.
It's really really overwhelmingbecause you've got all these
different health professionalsor agencies not always talking
to each other, so you're kind ofthe one in the middle.
It's like well, that personsaid that, well, that person
said that, and it's like youknow.
So that gets really reallyconfusing and really challenging
(12:25):
.
So if you don't know much abouthealth stuff, that would be
really really hard.
And even if you do, it's notyour role, you're not the
physician or the doctor of theperson involved.
So that's really tough.
So there's just so many levelsof challenge.
So there's understanding that,the systems and the availability
of support and help andwhatever, and what someone may
(12:46):
or may not need.
The good thing is there arethings involved in that because
they're actually that hospitalhome also had an occupational
therapist and a physiotherapist,which is fantastic.
There's another system inaustralia I don't know if it's
just in new south wales becauseour health systems are all a bit
different but it's called transpack, which is a 12 week, 6 to
12 week package that you getafter hospital in the home,
(13:09):
which gives a lot of thesesupportive services as well to
keep you going until home carekicks in when you've applied for
home care.
So a lot of great services.
So I'm really, really gratefulfor that.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm super grateful for all theservices that have been
available.
It would have been so extremelytough without them, but yeah, so
(13:32):
yes, understanding all thesesystems, understanding all this
language, understanding all thishealth stuff, managing and
balancing the needs of yourperson without treading on their
agency and their freedoms andtheir dignity as well, but also
helping them in the things thatthey need.
(13:53):
And some of that is really kindof invasive stuff, but it's
really hard right.
And then, yeah, there is theemotions of actually watching
your parents aging or yourrelatives or your partner or
whoever it is.
That's not well.
It's just watching that too andseeing that person in that
situation.
So I just wanted to acknowledgehow hard that situation is.
(14:16):
And the other thing that I'veobserved in my experience too,
and it's really conflicting,because when someone does, when
someone really is at their kindof end of life stage, and it's
really so tough for everyoneinvolved, then there's that kind
of like you have thoseconflicting emotions because
part of you is like I just wantthis to be over.
It's so hard.
(14:37):
But then you don't want theperson to be gone and when
they're gone you're kind of likeoh, you know, I know that when,
when my mother passed, I wouldgo to like months, months and
months later I'd go into adoctor's surgery and I'd see a
woman, say my age, walk in withher elderly mother taking her
mother to the doctor, and Iwould just be devastated and I'd
be in tears and it was because,oh, I wish I could be doing
(15:00):
that, you know.
So it's this weird conundrum oflike when you're in it you just
want it to be over, because itis so hard and it is really
really hard, and when it's overyou regret that it's over,
because you'd rather be takingthem to the doctor.
So it's just like this weirdheadspace thing and you want it
to be over for a lot of reasons.
You want it to be over becauseyou want them to be out of pain
(15:22):
and them to not be going throughthis.
You want it to be over becauseyou don't want to be going
through it either, but also youdon't want it to be over because
you don't want to lose yourloved one.
So it's just so fraught with somany different mixed emotions
and I think and also for thatreason, just the things I just
talked about then there can be alot of guilt because you feel
guilty for feeling that way.
And then, add to that, there'sjust a general lot of guilt
(15:51):
anyway, because when you're notthere, you feel bad, like you
should be there, uh.
And then when you're there,you're kind of like oh, geez,
I've got so much to do, I needto get home and do the thing,
and uh, so again, it's reallyreally hard, like it's, you know
, damned if you do, dead, if youdon't, because if you're there
it's tough.
And if you're home it's tough,because then you're worried
about them, and and then whenyou are there, sometimes if
they're a bit cantankerous or abit cranky or they're not well
and they're in pain, or they'refearful or anxious or got things
(16:14):
going on which often all ofthose things are the case
because of the unique situationthat you're in, they can be
really difficult to deal with aswell.
So you sort of then, not onlyis it's kind of you know, one of
the most jobs in the world thathas the least sort of you know
besides, like just parenting ingeneral, that has the least sort
(16:35):
of gratitude involved with it,and people are quite the parent.
Carers are sort of invisible,really, aren't they?
But then you've got that levelof if you're someone's carer and
also they're really difficultto deal with, or sometimes
they're mean and cruel and orsometimes they're just
cantankerous and a bit cranky orwhatever it is.
But that can be hard as well,because you know if you're in a
(16:56):
normal situation you might beable to deal with it, but
because you know you're usuallytired and whatever it's really,
really you know your emotionsare worn, you're, you're not
getting as much sleep, you'vegot 50 million things in the air
at the same time, and thenyou're just not as able to cope
with it as maybe you normallywould be.
And then, to add to that, youknow, in the case of the person
that I'm supporting and in thecase of when I was supporting my
(17:18):
mom as well, it involves sortof significant travel for me to
get there and I usually have tostay.
And when you have to stay inanother person's home, there's
all the challenges of that aswell.
You're not at home and you'vegot to pack your bags, blah,
blah, blah.
So it's just all of thosethings make it challenging in so
many ways.
(17:41):
And what I do to manage myselfphysically and emotionally when
I'm in that situation and again,I know this is unique to
different situations.
So I'm not putting on saying,oh, what I do is something that
you should or could do, butthere might be something else
that you could do.
That's different, becauseobviously it depends on whether
or not you can be away from thatperson for any length of time
(18:01):
and like a whole bunch of things, right?
So I am not saying, oh, I dothis thing, you should do it
because you can like.
Maybe you can't, but theremight be something else that you
can do.
But I'm going to just talk justa little bit, while I'm winding
this up, about some of thethings that I do that I find
helpful, and my encouragement isfor you to find some things
that are helpful for you,whatever they are.
(18:22):
And there is sort of certainlevels of respite care available
in Australia as well for carers.
But also, you know, if you arewatching this on YouTube or on
Rumble or you know, you've seenit on a social media post or
something, I'm more than happyfor you to reply and talk about
(18:44):
strategies that you have.
And if this is an area that youknow a lot about and you want
to be on my podcast, let me know, because I I don't have all the
answers and there isn't all theanswers out there sort of thing
, but certainly you might have aperspective or information that
I don't have that can be reallyuseful, or just a strategy that
you have used that you foundthat worked really well for you.
(19:06):
So, yeah, please let me know.
If you have ideas, that thingsthat I don't think about because
I don't think about everything,that, um, things that I don't
think about because I don'tthink about everything so well,
I'll tell you what I've beendoing.
When I am away and at thisrelative's home what I do is, um
, every morning.
They live not far from a beach,so every morning I head down to
(19:30):
the beach and I walk and I dofour to six kilometers of
walking along the waterfront.
Sometimes I stop and have acuppa, like have a hot choccy or
a tea or something.
More often than not I don't,but sometimes I do.
I've got another relativenearby up there, so sometimes I
(19:51):
meet with that person and have ahot choccy.
Or sometimes I meet with thatperson and have a walk.
Or sometimes I just chat withthat person and with that person
and there's a couple of otherrelatives and friends I just get
things off my chest, like ifI'm kind of like, oh man, this
is driving me crazy, you know, Ijust talk to those people
because sometimes you just needto sort of like you just get it
(20:13):
out right and and it's notalways pretty and it's not
always nice, you don't want totake it out on the person that
you're caring for and uh,sometimes it's just emotions.
Usually they don't get them outof your system right.
So I make sure there's people Ican do that with.
Uh, so I get that out of mysystem and kind of go oh you
know, complain, complain, windto wind, whatever it is, get out
of my system.
Uh, I walk every morningwithout fail, and the only time
(20:37):
I haven't is it was pouring withrain and I made a point of
going that evening and doing itinstead.
But I just I'm moving my bodybecause I know that it helps my
body function and it helps mewith my emotions.
It helps me clear my head andluckily, this is a really
beautiful place to be.
I do that as well, so I canlook at the beautiful ocean and
just kind of watch all thepeople that keep walking, the
cute dogs and stuff, you know.
(20:58):
So I do that, this person also.
There's a pool in this homewhich I've managed to, with some
help, get clean, and I'menjoying using the pool
sometimes as well, because evenjust getting in for five minutes
is really nice and just have abit of a swim, have a little
little bit of jump around, a bitof exercise or just a little
bit of a float.
So I will do that.
(21:20):
I'm also making sure that I'mhaving protein with every meal,
because protein is reallyimportant for grounding, it's
really important for keepingyour blood sugar level stable,
which will help keep youremotions and physically and
emotionally stable.
Protein is also important formaking neurotransmitters in the
brain serotonin, dopamine,melatonin, all those things.
So protein is vitally importantto keep me functional, keep
(21:45):
everyone functional.
So I am making sure I have thatwith every meal.
Am I having too much sugar?
Sometimes?
Yes, I like the hot choccies orwhatever it is, but I don't do
that kind of I'm here and it'sall hard, so I'm not going to do
anything to look after myself.
What I do is I say it's here,it's challenging.
These are the things I know Ican do.
(22:05):
I can drink plenty of water.
I can go for walks, I can enjoythe views, I can talk to
certain people to get things offmy chest.
I think I said the water before.
I'm drinking plenty of water.
I'm also making sure I'm havingsome vegetables and bits of
fruit and vegetables, that kindof thing.
So I'm doing those things.
And then what I'm also doing isI'm planning my time and I'm
(22:27):
looking for opportunities when Ican come home and asking for
help if there's other peoplethat can come and support me so
that I can have a day off, acouple days off or whatever it
is.
So they're the sorts ofstrategies that I have been
using, because sometimes people,often it ends up being just on
one child or one person or onerelative, and part of the reason
(22:52):
that happens is because of thepersonality of that person,
maybe because of the location ofthat person.
So there's a lot of factors,but also part of the reason is
because that person kind ofstarts doing it and then they
just keep doing it and then theydon't ask for help anymore, and
one of the reasons they don'task for help to be like I'm
aware of this because of what alot of my clients say to me one
(23:12):
of the reasons they don't askfor help is they don't get help.
In saying that, though, it isimportant to ask for help,
because if you need help, askfor it, and you may or may not
get it, but you certainly put itthis way If you don't ask for
it, you're definitely not goingto get any help.
If you do ask for it, you mightbe surprised.
You might get some help.
So I think there's nothing tolose in asking for it.
So it's just having that inmind as well.
(23:34):
It's not all on you.
The other thing too is it isn'tall on you, as in the outcomes
for your person are not yourfault or your.
You know, life is life, stuffhappens.
People have whatever healthissues they have, for whatever
reason, and sometimes inpeople's care or in situations,
(23:59):
people might have accidents, sothey might.
There might be a mistake withsomeone's medication.
All these things happen.
You can only do your best.
You, honestly, can only do yourbest.
You are not sort of god orwhoever the.
You know whatever.
Whoever you decide is you know,whoever's god, the universe,
whatever it is.
But you know, you're not thegreat sort of person in charge
(24:20):
of all of this and you're just ahuman being who's doing your
best.
So just kind of have anawareness that, uh, there's only
so much power and control youhave and it's not all your fault
, and when stuff goes wrong it'snot.
There's only so much control wehave.
And at a certain level we haveto understand that we don't have
control of it all, because Ithink that sometimes that causes
(24:41):
a lot of stress when we kind ofand and often we put a lot of
pressure on ourselves that it'sall on us and we have to make it
all work and we have to make itall okay, and we can't always
do that and and sometimesespecially if you're dealing
with someone who's in an end-ofyou can't make it all okay.
What you can do is get as manysupport services as possible and
the treatments that that personneeds, or the painkillers or
(25:02):
whatever the thing that thatperson needs, and whatever you
need, and just do your best.
But you're not in control of itall and you can't control it.
And sometimes experienceshappen and you don't know why
and it's just a sound of yourhands, and so it's that ability
to kind of go okay, you know,I'm not God or whoever, and I
can't control it all, and it'snot all on me as well, because
(25:24):
we do tend to um, we, you knowpeople, we take things on, and
then we kind of get all sort ofthinking that we're responsible
for it all and you're not.
You're a human being and youcan only just do the best you
can.
So I just wanted to remind youof that as well.
Sometimes all we can do is thebest we can do, and that just
has to be enough sometimesbecause you know and you know
(25:44):
also to a reminder if you areeven doing a caring role and
helping someone and supportingsomeone.
At whatever level you're doingit at, at least you're doing
something, because there's a lotof people that don't support or
care at all.
So you're just doing the bestyou can, all right.
So just have an awarenessaround that, be kind to yourself
around that, because a lot ofour self-talk around this is
what does us in the other thingtoo.
(26:08):
Just quickly, before I go, wouldjust be to say also be aware of
your limitations.
When you're not with thatperson, as in, if you're
spending, you know, so many daysa week away from home, or every
day away from home, or everynight, or whatever it is, some
things have got to give.
So you're not going to be ableto keep the upkeep of the house
(26:29):
as well, or your business orwhatever it is.
So either some of those thingsjust have to go for a while or
there's again supports that youcan put in place to change that.
So, whether it be a financialthing that, if you can afford
that, to pay for someone to helpyou clean the house, or whether
it be asking someone else to dothat, or whether it be,
(26:50):
whatever the situation is in thebusiness, asking someone else
to manage certain situations orputting certain projects or
certain things on hold, right?
So also just understandably,that sometimes something has to
give and you just have to berealistic about you can't do it
all, okay, because you justcan't.
And we have these are allseasons.
We have these seasons in ourlife and um, and so ultimately
(27:12):
we all have to make a choiceabout what we're willing to give
, what we're physically andemotionally able to give, what
we can live with or not,depending on the situation of
your relationship with thatperson.
Then we just do our best andwe're human and we do the best
we can and life is life andthings just turn out the way
(27:33):
they do.
So sometimes a lot of thepressure we put on ourselves so
just a reminder to be pressurewe put on ourselves.
So just a reminder to be awareof how much pressure you might
be putting on yourself.
So, anyway, I just wanted toshout out to all of the carers
out there of all different kinds, all different shape, sizes and
kinds and situations.
I see you and I'm happy to hearyou as well if you've got things
(27:54):
to say, if you feel like youwould like to be on this podcast
and have a talk to me aboutthis experience that you have
had, or if you just want to giveme some feedback as well, I'm
happy to hear that.
But yeah, I just want to putthe word out that I am thinking
(28:14):
of all of you because I know inmy relatively brief compared to
some people associations withbeing a carer it can be really,
really tough on every level.
So, just thinking of you alland I see you and hopefully this
will be a continuedconversation, because I think it
is an important conversationabout a real and important
(28:38):
conversation about things thatmatter.
Anyway, please like, subscribeand share and give me any
feedback you have and maybe somereviews as well, and places
like iTunes, spotify, you know,and comments and things on
YouTube or Rumble.
I would really appreciate it tohelp my little podcast grow.
Thanks, and I'll talk to youall again next week.
(28:59):
Bye.
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection.
I'm your host, Fiona Kane, andtoday I want to talk about being
a carer.
It's a role that I've been inon and off over the last few
years with my parents, and it'sa role that many people are in
in all different situations.
It might be parents, partners,obviously children and maybe
(00:24):
people in their community aswell.
And I just really I suppose,because on this podcast, what I
like to do is have realconversations about things that
matter.
I just see it so much in thecommunity at the moment, so many
people talking about it and howhard it is, so I just wanted to
bring up the conversation andjust start a discussion.
I wish I had all the answersfor you now.
(00:44):
I could tell you some of thethings that I do to manage
myself through these times, butevery situation obviously is
unique and it's all a bitdifferent for everybody, so
you've got to figure it outbased on what your needs are and
based on what's going on foryou.
But I just wanted to start thisconversation because being a
carer can be really hard, and soI just wanted to talk about the
(01:08):
ins and outs of it and some ofmy experiences, and really just
to you know, if anything,sometimes just knowing that
other people are experiencingsome of the same things or
thinking the same things,whatever it can just be helpful
to know that you're not alone,you're not the only one going
through this, and I think it'san important topic because it
(01:28):
really does affect our physicaland mental health.
So that's why I wanted to bringthis up today and also I try
and be transparent to a certaindegree about what's going on for
me and my life, because I thinkthat you can tap into the
things that you know or you areexperiencing.
At the same time, I don'talways tap into it, because I
(01:52):
may not be ready myself at thetime, depending on where I'm at
with the experience, or I maynot tap into it due to just
being like confidentiality andprivacy of other individuals
involved, being likeconfidentiality and privacy of
other individuals involved.
So I will talk about this tothe level that I feel that I can
, without talking about people'sprivate business, if you know
(02:13):
what I mean.
So, yeah, so sometimes, like Ilike to be, I want to be just
telling the truth of who I amand where I'm at with things,
because I think that just helpsyou know where I'm coming from
with things Doesn't mean I'malways right about stuff, but it
just gives you an idea of wheremy thought process is coming
from and my experiences, butalso I'd love to hear your
(02:34):
experiences as well, and moreand more I might get people on
to talk about this topic,because I think it's actually a
really important topic andobviously I'm a woman in my 50s,
so it's a really common issuefor people of my age, and what
is even more typical than in mycase is that it's what's called
(02:54):
the sandwich generation.
So the sandwich generation isgenerally people who have
children, and then they alsohave parents and they're often
caring for both.
Right, so I don't have children, and you might perceive that as
a good thing or a bad thing,and I think that that's one of
those things.
It means I don't have to carefor children as well, but it
also means I don't have anyonewho might potentially care for
(03:15):
me, because sometimes if youhave grown children, they might
support you a little bit whileyou're supporting a parent.
So everything in life has gotits potential positive,
potential negatives, and everysituation is unique.
So good, bad, whatever.
It just is right.
But many people are managingtheir children and managing
their parents, and it might bemanaging their children and
(03:36):
their grandchildren and theirparents and their job and all of
the things, and it can just bereally, really tough.
So the thing about being acarer is sometimes it it builds
up over time and people do thisfor many, many, many years, but
and sometimes it kind of there'sa dramatic change, something
happens and uh, which is whathappened for me most recently,
(03:57):
is just something happens tosomeone in your life and
suddenly you're thrust into acarer role that you, you know,
weren't quite ready for orwhatever.
And the challenge, one of thebiggest challenges I well,
there's a few challenges, butone of the challenges I find
especially caring for anyonewho's of the baby boomer
(04:18):
generation, which is largely myparents' generation.
Is that generation and, look,this might be the case, everyone
might say this about theirparents when I'm the older one
and whatever, whatever.
So I don't know if it's aboutthat generation or if it's just
about the experience of thisexperience just in general,
whenever it happens, but is alot of people of that generation
(04:43):
you know, and I don't thinkit's that generation you know,
and not anything of thatgeneration, to be honest.
But people you spend your wholelife creating, trying to create
a certain amount of freedom foryourself, right.
So agency and freedom where youcan do what you want to do and
you make your own choices andyou know you're an adult and
you're just doing your own thingright.
And one of the really hard,really really tough things that
(05:06):
would seem from observing and Ithink it's true is about getting
older and maybe starting tohave, or not even just getting
older, but when people have orstart to have, health problems
or challenges that mean thatthey require a certain level of
care, is you can lose a certainlevel of agency and a certain
level of the ability to makechoices, you know, because you
(05:32):
can't just do what you want,because you might be relying on
a carer to take you to the placeor make the food or do the
shopping or whatever it is right, and so suddenly you don't have
the same agency or also freedomthat you once had.
So that's really really hardfor the person being cared for.
It's also really really hardfor the person, the carer,
(05:54):
because as a carer, one of thereally tough things is what you
don't want to do is you don'twant.
You want people to have dignityand you want people to have
agency and you want people tofeel like they're still making
choices for themselves andthey're still you know, it's
still their life right, tryingto balance that with what they
actually need and how much theyneed for you to do and how much
(06:17):
you might need to be interferingin their life.
You know you might need to be,you know, paying their bills or
organizing their insurance, orgetting something fixed in the
house or doing their groceryshopping or cooking their meals,
and when you do that, it'snever going to be the way they
would have done it.
And there is a certain loss ofagency there because you might
(06:39):
be making the decision or youmight have to.
You're the one in the situationthat has to sort of make the
decision about spending theirmoney or the decision about
something to do with their careor whatever.
So it's really really hardbecause you're trying to balance
that.
Okay, I've got to get stuff doneand sometimes you've got a
minimum amount of time you getthere to them and you've got
like 50 things on your list thatyou need to check off before
(07:02):
you go back to, in my case, backto my business, back to my own
life, back to my own husband andback to my own home and all of
my responsibilities.
So I will go to be with thisrelative and I'll have like 50
things on my list I have to getdone right.
So you just got to get done.
And then, at the same time,though, you have to consider
(07:22):
their agency, and you know, soit's really is that that can be
a really challenging thing juston its own, because you don't
want to offend or insult theperson or upset them or cross
boundaries or make them feel bad, but at the same time, you've
got to help them and you've gotto get stuff done right so that
that, just on its own, can justbe really really hard.
Uh, the other thing that'sreally really hard, obviously,
(07:44):
uh, and like all the practicalthings, like just knowing about
like in australia it's called myaged care that you can kind of
get support, uh, but there's allyou know understanding how it
works, understanding how thesystem works, understanding what
to apply for, how to apply forit and um, so it's got all this
hair in my face.
It's really annoying me.
Um, sorry for those, visuallyit's probably annoying watching
(08:04):
me, because I've been justbrushing the hair out of my face
.
I just had to name it and moveit.
But yeah, so all of the justpractical things like my
relative was suddenly inhospital emergency situation and
then suddenly out of hospital alittle bit earlier than
expected, and trying to swinginto action and figure out, well
(08:26):
, what are all the services thatare available and how can we
get the nursing support we needand this support and that
support and these tools andthose items that we might need,
and this sort of you know allthe things right, and so all of
that is really really tricky.
Suddenly, you're trying tofigure out the system in your
country or your state or yourcity or whatever, about what
(08:47):
might be available.
It's a situation too where, ifyou are super wealthy or the
person who's super wealthy,maybe from that point of view it
might be easier because you canget all the nursing you need
and all the equipment you needand whatever.
You could actually just paypeople to go and find all that
for you and do all that for you.
But for for most people,there's a situation where, to a
(09:09):
certain level, you might berelying on any sort of you know
free services or subsidizedservices, government type
services and things like that,which is what my experience has
been, and so it's just reallytricky just navigating those
things.
And also in this country I'vetalked about it before with
other people I've been talkingto in guests on my podcast,
(09:31):
talking about things like NDIS,which is our National Disability
Insurance Scheme.
So anyway, we've got all thesedifferent schemes and and health
services and things, which someof them are really good.
By the way, some of them are.
They're all problematic becausethere's no perfect system, but
some of them actually, I mustacknowledge, are really really
good.
Like we have something calledhospital in the home and that is
(09:52):
a service where, for a week, Ihad access to a doctor on the
phone but also a nurse that wascoming out and did come out
regularly to assess things andto fix things.
And to you know, the nursewould come out and kind of say,
oh yeah, you're right, thisright, this is going on, that's
going on.
Okay, this isn't right.
That nurse would ring thedoctor, have a long conversation
(10:12):
with the doctor, make anarrangement for a prescription
to be changed or something to bechanged.
They'd send that off to thepharmacy and you know our
pharmacy, you know, would changethe you know the Webster packs
with the medications and thingslike that.
So great service.
So there are some greatservices like that, but just
like even knowing what they areand where to get them from, how
(10:33):
to get you know all of thatstuff is really, really
challenging.
And then on top of that, you'vegot the other level of you know
if this is a close relative toyou or someone who you're close
to, which it probably is, ifyou're caring for them.
There's actually just a sadnessof watching people decline or
of watching people lose theiragency and their freedom, and
(10:58):
the last thing you want to do isbe stepping on all that.
But sometimes you sort of haveto, because it's just how a
carer's role is sometimes, so itcan just be really sad as well
watching people start to becomefrail, watching people start to
have big challenges and thingsand I haven't dealt with this
one, but it's one that I seethere's some people around me
(11:20):
experiencing is dealing withpeople with dementia as well
that that must be so tough towatch people and in the case,
one of the cases I'm aware ofaround me is just someone who's
really physically well butdementia is a problem and that's
also a really sad thing toobserve and be involved in, sort
(11:42):
of things.
So being a carer has so manydifferent levels of challenge.
It's got the level of challengeof understanding bureaucracies
and systems and health systemsand healthcare, and then it's
like understanding health stuff.
I mean, I understand a lot ofhealth stuff because I'm in the
industry and even I find a lotof it really tough.
So I can't even begin toimagine if you don't know the
first thing, if you don't knowthe difference between your
(12:03):
kidney and liver and whatever,then it must be really really
hard to understand this stuff.
Because I understand a lot ofthat and I still a lot of.
It's really really overwhelmingbecause you've got all these
different health professionalsor agencies not always talking
to each other, so you're kind ofthe one in the middle.
It's like well, that personsaid that, well, that person
said that, and it's like youknow.
So that gets really reallyconfusing and really challenging
(12:25):
.
So if you don't know much abouthealth stuff, that would be
really really hard.
And even if you do, it's notyour role, you're not the
physician or the doctor of theperson involved.
So that's really tough.
So there's just so many levelsof challenge.
So there's understanding that,the systems and the availability
of support and help andwhatever, and what someone may
(12:46):
or may not need.
The good thing is there arethings involved in that because
they're actually that hospitalhome also had an occupational
therapist and a physiotherapist,which is fantastic.
There's another system inaustralia I don't know if it's
just in new south wales becauseour health systems are all a bit
different but it's called transpack, which is a 12 week, 6 to
12 week package that you getafter hospital in the home,
(13:09):
which gives a lot of thesesupportive services as well to
keep you going until home carekicks in when you've applied for
home care.
So a lot of great services.
So I'm really, really gratefulfor that.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm super grateful for all theservices that have been
available.
It would have been so extremelytough without them, but yeah, so
(13:32):
yes, understanding all thesesystems, understanding all this
language, understanding all thishealth stuff, managing and
balancing the needs of yourperson without treading on their
agency and their freedoms andtheir dignity as well, but also
helping them in the things thatthey need.
(13:53):
And some of that is really kindof invasive stuff, but it's
really hard right.
And then, yeah, there is theemotions of actually watching
your parents aging or yourrelatives or your partner or
whoever it is.
That's not well.
It's just watching that too andseeing that person in that
situation.
So I just wanted to acknowledgehow hard that situation is.
(14:16):
And the other thing that I'veobserved in my experience too,
and it's really conflicting,because when someone does, when
someone really is at their kindof end of life stage, and it's
really so tough for everyoneinvolved, then there's that kind
of like you have thoseconflicting emotions because
part of you is like I just wantthis to be over.
It's so hard.
(14:37):
But then you don't want theperson to be gone and when
they're gone you're kind of likeoh, you know, I know that when,
when my mother passed, I wouldgo to like months, months and
months later I'd go into adoctor's surgery and I'd see a
woman, say my age, walk in withher elderly mother taking her
mother to the doctor, and Iwould just be devastated and I'd
be in tears and it was because,oh, I wish I could be doing
(15:00):
that, you know.
So it's this weird conundrum oflike when you're in it you just
want it to be over, because itis so hard and it is really
really hard, and when it's overyou regret that it's over,
because you'd rather be takingthem to the doctor.
So it's just like this weirdheadspace thing and you want it
to be over for a lot of reasons.
You want it to be over becauseyou want them to be out of pain
(15:22):
and them to not be going throughthis.
You want it to be over becauseyou don't want to be going
through it either, but also youdon't want it to be over because
you don't want to lose yourloved one.
So it's just so fraught with somany different mixed emotions
and I think and also for thatreason, just the things I just
talked about then there can be alot of guilt because you feel
guilty for feeling that way.
And then, add to that, there'sjust a general lot of guilt
(15:51):
anyway, because when you're notthere, you feel bad, like you
should be there, uh.
And then when you're there,you're kind of like oh, geez,
I've got so much to do, I needto get home and do the thing,
and uh, so again, it's reallyreally hard, like it's, you know
, damned if you do, dead, if youdon't, because if you're there
it's tough.
And if you're home it's tough,because then you're worried
about them, and and then whenyou are there, sometimes if
they're a bit cantankerous or abit cranky or they're not well
and they're in pain, or they'refearful or anxious or got things
(16:14):
going on which often all ofthose things are the case
because of the unique situationthat you're in, they can be
really difficult to deal with aswell.
So you sort of then, not onlyis it's kind of you know, one of
the most jobs in the world thathas the least sort of you know
besides, like just parenting ingeneral, that has the least sort
(16:35):
of gratitude involved with it,and people are quite the parent.
Carers are sort of invisible,really, aren't they?
But then you've got that levelof if you're someone's carer and
also they're really difficultto deal with, or sometimes
they're mean and cruel and orsometimes they're just
cantankerous and a bit cranky orwhatever it is.
But that can be hard as well,because you know if you're in a
(16:56):
normal situation you might beable to deal with it, but
because you know you're usuallytired and whatever it's really,
really you know your emotionsare worn, you're, you're not
getting as much sleep, you'vegot 50 million things in the air
at the same time, and thenyou're just not as able to cope
with it as maybe you normallywould be.
And then, to add to that, youknow, in the case of the person
that I'm supporting and in thecase of when I was supporting my
(17:18):
mom as well, it involves sortof significant travel for me to
get there and I usually have tostay.
And when you have to stay inanother person's home, there's
all the challenges of that aswell.
You're not at home and you'vegot to pack your bags, blah,
blah, blah.
So it's just all of thosethings make it challenging in so
many ways.
(17:41):
And what I do to manage myselfphysically and emotionally when
I'm in that situation and again,I know this is unique to
different situations.
So I'm not putting on saying,oh, what I do is something that
you should or could do, butthere might be something else
that you could do.
That's different, becauseobviously it depends on whether
or not you can be away from thatperson for any length of time
(18:01):
and like a whole bunch of things, right?
So I am not saying, oh, I dothis thing, you should do it
because you can like.
Maybe you can't, but theremight be something else that you
can do.
But I'm going to just talk justa little bit, while I'm winding
this up, about some of thethings that I do that I find
helpful, and my encouragement isfor you to find some things
that are helpful for you,whatever they are.
(18:22):
And there is sort of certainlevels of respite care available
in Australia as well for carers.
But also, you know, if you arewatching this on YouTube or on
Rumble or you know, you've seenit on a social media post or
something, I'm more than happyfor you to reply and talk about
(18:44):
strategies that you have.
And if this is an area that youknow a lot about and you want
to be on my podcast, let me know, because I I don't have all the
answers and there isn't all theanswers out there sort of thing
, but certainly you might have aperspective or information that
I don't have that can be reallyuseful, or just a strategy that
you have used that you foundthat worked really well for you.
(19:06):
So, yeah, please let me know.
If you have ideas, that thingsthat I don't think about because
I don't think about everything,that, um, things that I don't
think about because I don'tthink about everything so well,
I'll tell you what I've beendoing.
When I am away and at thisrelative's home what I do is, um
, every morning.
They live not far from a beach,so every morning I head down to
(19:30):
the beach and I walk and I dofour to six kilometers of
walking along the waterfront.
Sometimes I stop and have acuppa, like have a hot choccy or
a tea or something.
More often than not I don't,but sometimes I do.
I've got another relativenearby up there, so sometimes I
(19:51):
meet with that person and have ahot choccy.
Or sometimes I meet with thatperson and have a walk.
Or sometimes I just chat withthat person and with that person
and there's a couple of otherrelatives and friends I just get
things off my chest, like ifI'm kind of like, oh man, this
is driving me crazy, you know, Ijust talk to those people
because sometimes you just needto sort of like you just get it
(20:13):
out right and and it's notalways pretty and it's not
always nice, you don't want totake it out on the person that
you're caring for and uh,sometimes it's just emotions.
Usually they don't get them outof your system right.
So I make sure there's people Ican do that with.
Uh, so I get that out of mysystem and kind of go oh you
know, complain, complain, windto wind, whatever it is, get out
of my system.
Uh, I walk every morningwithout fail, and the only time
(20:37):
I haven't is it was pouring withrain and I made a point of
going that evening and doing itinstead.
But I just I'm moving my bodybecause I know that it helps my
body function and it helps mewith my emotions.
It helps me clear my head andluckily, this is a really
beautiful place to be.
I do that as well, so I canlook at the beautiful ocean and
just kind of watch all thepeople that keep walking, the
cute dogs and stuff, you know.
(20:58):
So I do that, this person also.
There's a pool in this homewhich I've managed to, with some
help, get clean, and I'menjoying using the pool
sometimes as well, because evenjust getting in for five minutes
is really nice and just have abit of a swim, have a little
little bit of jump around, a bitof exercise or just a little
bit of a float.
So I will do that.
(21:20):
I'm also making sure that I'mhaving protein with every meal,
because protein is reallyimportant for grounding, it's
really important for keepingyour blood sugar level stable,
which will help keep youremotions and physically and
emotionally stable.
Protein is also important formaking neurotransmitters in the
brain serotonin, dopamine,melatonin, all those things.
So protein is vitally importantto keep me functional, keep
(21:45):
everyone functional.
So I am making sure I have thatwith every meal.
Am I having too much sugar?
Sometimes?
Yes, I like the hot choccies orwhatever it is, but I don't do
that kind of I'm here and it'sall hard, so I'm not going to do
anything to look after myself.
What I do is I say it's here,it's challenging.
These are the things I know Ican do.
(22:05):
I can drink plenty of water.
I can go for walks, I can enjoythe views, I can talk to
certain people to get things offmy chest.
I think I said the water before.
I'm drinking plenty of water.
I'm also making sure I'm havingsome vegetables and bits of
fruit and vegetables, that kindof thing.
So I'm doing those things.
And then what I'm also doing isI'm planning my time and I'm
(22:27):
looking for opportunities when Ican come home and asking for
help if there's other peoplethat can come and support me so
that I can have a day off, acouple days off or whatever it
is.
So they're the sorts ofstrategies that I have been
using, because sometimes people,often it ends up being just on
one child or one person or onerelative, and part of the reason
(22:52):
that happens is because of thepersonality of that person,
maybe because of the location ofthat person.
So there's a lot of factors,but also part of the reason is
because that person kind ofstarts doing it and then they
just keep doing it and then theydon't ask for help anymore, and
one of the reasons they don'task for help to be like I'm
aware of this because of what alot of my clients say to me one
(23:12):
of the reasons they don't askfor help is they don't get help.
In saying that, though, it isimportant to ask for help,
because if you need help, askfor it, and you may or may not
get it, but you certainly put itthis way If you don't ask for
it, you're definitely not goingto get any help.
If you do ask for it, you mightbe surprised.
You might get some help.
So I think there's nothing tolose in asking for it.
So it's just having that inmind as well.
(23:34):
It's not all on you.
The other thing too is it isn'tall on you, as in the outcomes
for your person are not yourfault or your.
You know, life is life, stuffhappens.
People have whatever healthissues they have, for whatever
reason, and sometimes inpeople's care or in situations,
(23:59):
people might have accidents, sothey might.
There might be a mistake withsomeone's medication.
All these things happen.
You can only do your best.
You, honestly, can only do yourbest.
You are not sort of god orwhoever the.
You know whatever.
Whoever you decide is you know,whoever's god, the universe,
whatever it is.
But you know, you're not thegreat sort of person in charge
(24:20):
of all of this and you're just ahuman being who's doing your
best.
So just kind of have anawareness that, uh, there's only
so much power and control youhave and it's not all your fault
, and when stuff goes wrong it'snot.
There's only so much control wehave.
And at a certain level we haveto understand that we don't have
control of it all, because Ithink that sometimes that causes
(24:41):
a lot of stress when we kind ofand and often we put a lot of
pressure on ourselves that it'sall on us and we have to make it
all work and we have to make itall okay, and we can't always
do that and and sometimesespecially if you're dealing
with someone who's in an end-ofyou can't make it all okay.
What you can do is get as manysupport services as possible and
the treatments that that personneeds, or the painkillers or
(25:02):
whatever the thing that thatperson needs, and whatever you
need, and just do your best.
But you're not in control of itall and you can't control it.
And sometimes experienceshappen and you don't know why
and it's just a sound of yourhands, and so it's that ability
to kind of go okay, you know,I'm not God or whoever, and I
can't control it all, and it'snot all on me as well, because
(25:24):
we do tend to um, we, you knowpeople, we take things on, and
then we kind of get all sort ofthinking that we're responsible
for it all and you're not.
You're a human being and youcan only just do the best you
can.
So I just wanted to remind youof that as well.
Sometimes all we can do is thebest we can do, and that just
has to be enough sometimesbecause you know and you know
(25:44):
also to a reminder if you areeven doing a caring role and
helping someone and supportingsomeone.
At whatever level you're doingit at, at least you're doing
something, because there's a lotof people that don't support or
care at all.
So you're just doing the bestyou can, all right.
So just have an awarenessaround that, be kind to yourself
around that, because a lot ofour self-talk around this is
what does us in the other thingtoo.
(26:08):
Just quickly, before I go, wouldjust be to say also be aware of
your limitations.
When you're not with thatperson, as in, if you're
spending, you know, so many daysa week away from home, or every
day away from home, or everynight, or whatever it is, some
things have got to give.
So you're not going to be ableto keep the upkeep of the house
(26:29):
as well, or your business orwhatever it is.
So either some of those thingsjust have to go for a while or
there's again supports that youcan put in place to change that.
So, whether it be a financialthing that, if you can afford
that, to pay for someone to helpyou clean the house, or whether
it be asking someone else to dothat, or whether it be,
(26:50):
whatever the situation is in thebusiness, asking someone else
to manage certain situations orputting certain projects or
certain things on hold, right?
So also just understandably,that sometimes something has to
give and you just have to berealistic about you can't do it
all, okay, because you justcan't.
And we have these are allseasons.
We have these seasons in ourlife and um, and so ultimately
(27:12):
we all have to make a choiceabout what we're willing to give
, what we're physically andemotionally able to give, what
we can live with or not,depending on the situation of
your relationship with thatperson.
Then we just do our best andwe're human and we do the best
we can and life is life andthings just turn out the way
(27:33):
they do.
So sometimes a lot of thepressure we put on ourselves so
just a reminder to be pressurewe put on ourselves.
So just a reminder to be awareof how much pressure you might
be putting on yourself.
So, anyway, I just wanted toshout out to all of the carers
out there of all different kinds, all different shape, sizes and
kinds and situations.
I see you and I'm happy to hearyou as well if you've got things
(27:54):
to say, if you feel like youwould like to be on this podcast
and have a talk to me aboutthis experience that you have
had, or if you just want to giveme some feedback as well, I'm
happy to hear that.
But yeah, I just want to putthe word out that I am thinking
(28:14):
of all of you because I know inmy relatively brief compared to
some people associations withbeing a carer it can be really,
really tough on every level.
So, just thinking of you alland I see you and hopefully this
will be a continuedconversation, because I think it
is an important conversationabout a real and important
(28:38):
conversation about things thatmatter.
Anyway, please like, subscribeand share and give me any
feedback you have and maybe somereviews as well, and places
like iTunes, spotify, you know,and comments and things on
YouTube or Rumble.
I would really appreciate it tohelp my little podcast grow.
Thanks, and I'll talk to youall again next week.
(28:59):
Bye.
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