Healthy Masculinity vs Toxic Masculinity: (What’s the Real Difference?) | Ep. 118 - The Wellness Connection with Fiona Kane

Episode Transcript
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Fiona Kane (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection podcast
with Fiona Kane.
Today I have a guest again andher name is Alison D'Vine.
Hi, Alison.

Alison D'Vine (00:10):
Hi Fiona, how are you?

Fiona Kane (00:12):
I'm well, thanks.
How are you today?

I'm going pretty good.
Today is my admin day, so it'sa bit more relaxed and chill, so
I'm having a good day.
So far, I'm pretty happy withit.

Fiona Kane (00:21):
Yes, yes, Are you like me?
It's business on top and partydown the bottom.

I'm literally wearing like my yoga pants right
now and like a hoodie.

Fiona Kane (00:31):
Yeah, yeah, I'm always kind of got the yoga
pants type thing on and then thebusiness attire up top for the
podcast.
And that's the good thing aboutpodcasting and radio and that
sort of thing is you can youknow, you can be at least half
relaxed.
So for those who don't know,you just give us a little bit of
introduction about who you are.

So, yep, as Fiona said, my name is Alison Devine.
I am a social worker, I live inPerth, western Australia, and I
have created a men's behaviorchange program and I have my own
private practice and it's theonly private practice men's
behavior change program in allhave my own private practice and
it's the only private practicemen's behavior change program in
all of Western Australia.
So I created the program andnow we've gone into family court

(01:11):
, we've gone into criminal courtand so we do service like quite
a lot of men now and it's justgrowing and going from strength
to strength.

Fiona Kane (01:20):
That sounds great and that's really relevant for
what we're talking about today,because, as per usual, I always
forget to say what the topic is,but today we're actually
extending the conversation.
I have a VA or a lady who washelping me do some language
around podcasts and it spatteredout as being a documentary.

(01:50):
No, adolescence is not adocumentary.
It is definitely a drama.
So it's good to just rememberthat it is a drama.
But adolescence has brought upa lot of questions around
especially children, whatthey're exposed to online, what
they're seeing online and howthat might be affecting them and
whether or not that isaffecting their behaviors, that

(02:11):
sort of thing.
So that's what we want to betalking about today.
So it'll be along those linesand I might just set it up a
little bit for you, because Ialready have sort of talked
about this on the podcast before.
So, with adolescents, in myopinion, great drama, great
series, great acting and just areally great conversation
starter.
So from that point of view, Iloved it.

(02:32):
From another point of view, Ijust felt like they were kind of
trying to say that the incelcommunity, which is people,
which is what is short term forwhat they call involuntary
celibates, people, young boyswho watch kind of Andrew Tate
type videos.
They were kind of saying thatthey're quite a big threat at

(02:53):
the moment in society.
And I would argue that they'renot a major threat.
There's other things,especially in the UK.
There's other things going onthere.
So from that point of view itwas a bit sort of like oh, maybe
focus on the bigger issues onthere.
So from that point of view itwas a bit sort of like maybe
focus on the bigger issues, insaying that it still is an issue
and what children watch andwhat children are exposed to, or

(03:16):
even just young men are exposedto and young women.
But this is kind of a bit moreabout the young men.
What they're exposed to isimportant and does matter.
So today I think it'd be goodfor us to explore a little bit
about what the kids are exposedto and that kind of.
Because you work with men, thatin-cell community you could
maybe talk a little bit more tothat.
So I suppose the starting pointwould be because I know that
you have watched the series, somaybe a little bit about what

(03:39):
you thought about it andespecially in your work with men
, how that you know what you'vegot a different perspective,
because you've got so muchexperience there yeah, 100.

Thank you, that's a great question.
Um, you know, see, when Iwatched it I was more caught up
in the drama of it.
Like I'm really glad youmentioned that it's a drama, not
a documentary, because it isvery evocative, like it brings
up a lot of emotions and me,having a 14 year old son, you
know, like to see that and howscared he looked and you know,
like when he peed his pants assoon as the SWAT team like or

(04:11):
TRG as we have it in Australia,broke into the, into the house.
You know, that was just likefor me.
I got caught up in the drama.
And then, you know, I had tosort of take a step back, like
after I watched the entire thing, and sort of think about what I
watched.
And it reminded me of this bookthat I read.
It's called Men who Hate Womenand it's all about the incel
community.
Um, but, like, when I read thebook, it's like I guess the

(04:33):
focus of the book was that it'svery big in America.
It's quite like you know,that's why a lot of the
shootings happened.
They were sort of saying aboutthat.
You know, the Joker, the guythat did the Batman Joker
killing, like he, you know, andso I think in America it is an
issue because of the gunviolence.
You know there's young men notall the men that use guns and
have gun violence are incels butI think that is an issue in

(04:54):
America a lot bigger than the UK.
I think it might be moving intothe UK, might be moving into
Australia, but it's all veryunderground and at the moment
it's not the biggest issues,like you'd mentioned.
I'm Australia, but it's allvery underground.
At the moment it's not thebiggest issues, like you'd
mentioned.
But I think it is good to beaware of what are our children
watching and what are they beingexposed to.
And it's a very timely reminderto kind of yeah, check in with
your boys and see if they'reokay, you know, and check in

(05:17):
with your men in your life andsee if they're okay.

Fiona Kane (05:20):
Yes, yeah, and look, one thing that I think is
important as well.
So, so, incels, I suppose itwould have been you know when,
when I was younger, it probablyjust would have been like the
nerdy guys that couldn't getgirlfriends or whatever it would
.
I suppose it would be that kindof guy.
These days, I think there'smore of these and, like I don't

(05:41):
even really want to pull I don'twant to call people names, but
this is just the language thatthey're using in this but these
unhappy men or men who are alone, or men, boys, whatever there's
, I think these days it'sthere's a lot more.
I think there's so many thingsthat have contributed to this.
We've got, you know, we've gotthis sort of online world, so a
lot of people are doing thingsmuch more online and not you,

(06:02):
you know, not dating and notseeing people in person.
That's a kind of a big part ofthis as well, but there
definitely are a lot more ofthese people today than there,
probably, than there ever were,and it's kind of.
Also, I know there's financialissues, those sorts of things as
well that you've got the youknow, I know I left home when I
was 17 or something.

(06:23):
We used to leave home when wewere 16, 17, whatever, but now a
lot of kids are still living athome when they're in their 30s,
and so that's kind of changedas well, that kids have often
just stay with their parentslonger.
So, anyway, there is more ofthis community and what I wanted
to delve into a little bit, Isuppose in general with, maybe

(06:44):
with men and boys, but in thatcommunity it's not just about
sort of having a go at them orsaying, oh well, what are they
doing?
Listening to Andrew Tate?
For it's just like, well, whyare they listening to Andrew
Tate?
What does he offer?
What is he offering them thatthey're not getting?
So how are they ending up inthis situation?
And's you know why are theylistening to him?

(07:05):
And um, and you know whatshould?
Um, yeah, I know, maybe let'sjust start there, just asking 37
questions in one.
Let's just start why?
Why do you think they'reattracted to someone like andrew
tay?

well, I mean, if you go back to what one of the
um comments that you made before, which was like when, when you
were younger, um, like the nerdyones would probably be the ones
that were not gettinggirlfriends and maybe they would
be the part of that incelcommunity if there was one back
then.
But, like in today's society,it's grown so much in that, like
, because of financialconstraints, people are living
at home, so maybe they can'tbring a partner back home.

(07:39):
So then there is that you knowa hate around and they like, oh
like, hate and shame aroundthemselves.
But they'll sort of throw itonto women and be like, well,
it's the woman's fault that Ican't bring her home or whatever
.
So there's that financialconstraints.
There's also, like someone likeAndrew Tate, he diagnoses, so he
gives you that, like you saidbefore, he diagnoses into like
alphas and betas, right, and so,like, nowadays, betas are any

(08:02):
man that's not getting into arelationship.
A beta is any man that's notfinancially secure.
A beta is any man that's notjacked up with muscles and has a
Maserati right.
And I think Andrew Tate givingyou almost like an instructional
guide on how you can be analpha and not a beta, I think
that's what a lot of men aredrawn to, and it's more the

(08:23):
materialistic things and thematerialistic body.
It's nothing to do with someonelike, say, for example, we
talked in the past like JordanPeterson, who gives you more
that like psychological adviceand, you know, gives you that
guidance, whereas Andrew Tategives you more the.
You buy this and you buyMaserati and you're an alpha.
You date like 20 women and havethem on your roster, and you're

(08:44):
an alpha.
You date like 20 women and havethem on your roster.
You're an alpha.
You go to the gym seven days aweek.
You're an alpha.
Those are not alphas.
Those are just very insecuremen that are just trying to find
answers in their life.

Fiona Kane (08:53):
Yes, yes, and frustratingly, I think a lot of
people and I'm the one thatbrought it up with you before we
started, but a lot of peoplethat don't really know see
Andrew Tay and Jordan Petersonin the same category, and
they're so.
Not because Jordan Petersonwhat he's doing is he's actually
helping these kids and his sortof advice is, you know, it's
that whole make your own bedthing, but really it is get your

(09:14):
house in order.
So it's like, if people aren'tfinding you attractive, and it's
not like go out and get surgeryor whatever, but it's more like
if you're not attracting girls,well, what are the things that
you could do that could make youmore attractive to girls?
Well, maybe you know, get a joband you know, maybe you know,
have a shower, make your bed,look after yourself.
You know those sorts of thingsyou don't have responsibility.

And I think yeah, because Jordan Peterson really
talks about discipline and Ithink discipline is an art form
that has been lost a little bit.
You know, people kind of just dothe quick fixes and even, like
you'd mentioned, with onlinedating, I was actually talking
to another like my supervisoryesterday, my clinical
supervisor and I was saying howI was, I'm now single, so I was
on like the dating apps and Iwas like I feel like it's uber

(10:00):
eats, but for relationships likeyou're just swiping and going,
oh, that looks a bit all right,it's like the same when I'm
looking like when I'm hungry andI'm like chinese looks good
tonight, like it's that samespace, you know, and I think, um
, like the andrew tates make iteasy to jump on those apps and
get like 20 girls, whereasjordan peterson is like be
disciplined, like if you are,you know, not attracting women

(10:20):
or you're not getting thoseswipes, eat, eat healthy.
You know look after yourself.
You know be disciplined.
And I think that discipline isa lost a bit because we're in a
very quick consumerism, quickfix space.

Fiona Kane (10:32):
Yeah, and I think that's it too.
I think the Andrew Tate thingis that it's kind of the shallow
, short term things, whereasJordan Peterson's the lifelong,
the things that you will do thatwill sustain you for life.
And that is the thing that Ithink a lot of young people
maybe it's not really explainedto them very well, but
historically it's always beenthe case, unfortunately that

(10:52):
young women generally areattracted to.
There's a couple of things.
So one, women are attracted toa certain level of success and
health and those things, becausewe are made to keep the human
race going right, so that's justkind of how it works right.
So a man that can support youand a man that looks like he's
very unable to bear children,kind of thing.
It's the same the other wayaround.

(11:13):
Men are attracted to women whoyou know bearing children, all
that stuff.
There's this kind of wholebiological thing that we don't
even think about.
That is already there.
So that is just part ofevolution and part of how we are
attracted to each other.
But also, though, you know,women are kind of attracted to
guys who you know.
Of course we want someone who'scapable and all of those things
.
We're often attracted tosomeone who's a bit rebellious

(11:36):
or stands up or is a bit louderor flashier or whatever the
thing is.
But sometimes, you know, whenyou're a young woman you can see
you can mistake that for beingpowerful or or uh, or confident
or whatever, and it's not alwayscompetent.
But so we're often attracted towhat I would say is often the
bad guy.
Put it that way um, when we'reyounger or the rebellious guy

(11:57):
used to be kind of the guy, themotorcycle gang or like whatever
it is, but we were attracted tolike the so-called bad guy.
And then generally, as we getolder, we want to settle down
and have children and werealized the bad guy's not the
one for that.
And that is actually when theseyou know so-called incels or the
you know the boy at school whoeveryone ignored because he was

(12:18):
a bit nerdy.
That is when he becomesattractive to women, right?
So he's gone out, he's spent afew years getting his life in
order, and we look at thedeadbeat boyfriends that we've
been hanging around, who are allflash but nothing behind it,
and then we do settle down, moreoften than not with the one who
just went out and got on withhis life and set himself up as a

(12:39):
success in his own life andthat he can't come, can't?
That boy comes into his own,you know, and that is when he's
attracted to women.
So that's the other thing aswell, because I think in these
incel communities, I thinkthey're being told in their
communities that they're nevergoing to find anyone and no
one's ever going to want them,and I don't think that's true.
It's also a timing thing.

And I think you know you're very right there is
this term called hypergamy,which basically refers to women
wanting to be attracted to, likea higher level of man who has
his life together, as opposed toyou know the flash car or the
motorbike and the bad boy withall the tattoos.
You know, we've all been there,done that.
I could literally be in a roomand spot like the only bad boy

(13:20):
and be like call me boy and belike call me.
But yeah, that the termhypergamy, like, refers to the
idea that as women get older, wewant to sort of date like more
settled men, you know, withdegrees, and so that the
hypergamy is this idea.
It's not just about looks, it'salso about like, um, their
degrees, where they're atfinancially and you know how
they present in life, and that'sthat like where women are

(13:41):
dating that higher level of men.
And so people kind of sometimesdon't understand why those
certain men are getting all theswipes.
And so that you know, I guessthe incel community or the
Andrew Tate's of the world willsay, well, they're getting the
swipes because you know they'realphas or like.
But even I was reading thisbook by Lewis Howe Sorry to go
off track a minute but he wastalking about the different

(14:03):
masks that men wear during theirlife and there's one called the
sexual mask which basicallylooks at relationships as like
relationships are for quitters,so it kind of encourages men to
like sleep around and you knowall of that kind of stuff.
And I think the incel communitykind of goes down that track of
like the dating con artists andthe you know the quick fixes and

(14:25):
the you know sleep around andrelationships are for quitters
and that kind of stuff.
But realistically, in everydaylife, women are aiming for the
higher level men due to alsobiological, because like
hypergamy refers to like, yes,like psychological, like our
need to sort of be safe as weget older, but also biologically
, you know you want the man that, like genetically is smarter

(14:47):
potentially, so your genes willbe smarter, you know your
children and so, yeah, it is aninteresting space to be in and
it's actually quite a sad spacebecause I feel like really sad
when I like when I read thatbook Men who Hate Women.
It's written by a woman who's ajournalist and she sort of
really like goes down like thisreal, like boohoo, like men are

(15:10):
worse, blah, blah kind of.
You know men are shit and toxicand all that kind of stuff.
But to me it's really sadbecause I do think part of also
why the Andrew Tate's are soattractive is because men don't
have rites of passage anymore.
You know, like back in the day,we are um creatures, like even
though we've evolved so much,but we are meant to be, you know

(15:32):
, biological certain ways right.
And then, like you know, backin, like in villages and you
know caveman days, if you evengo as far as back as that, they
were traditions and they wererites of passage when a man knew
he's a man.
Now, you know, and he has towork for it and that's what made
him a man, which is like whatum Jordan Peterson says, that
discipline, like work for it andyou'll be that man right.

Fiona Kane (15:53):
And so I think that's really sad that men don't
have that now anymore, you knowyes, and not only that, but
we're labeling a lot of malebehavior as toxic, and we're
labeling masculinity as beingtoxic, and that's I think that's
a huge issue for me is that Ican name things that are toxic
when they are fine.
However, you could also there'sa lot of toxic femininity as

(16:16):
well, so toxicity isn't just one.
It doesn't just belong to men,it belongs to women as well.
All human beings can displaytoxic behaviors, and there are
toxically masculine behaviors.
However, what we're doing iswe're kind of pretty much saying
everything that's masculine istoxic.
So then it's kind of like whatis it?

(16:37):
You get like the alphas or youget the soy boys, kind of thing.
It's like nothing in between.
But I always and it reallyreally annoys me because you see
, all of these I don't know ifyou've ever watched any of those
like the Whatever podcast, allthose sorts of things but all
these girls, oh my God, thesegirls just sit there and they
say, oh, wouldn't it be betterif we had a world without men.
It'll be so much better withoutmen.

(16:59):
We don't need men, blah, blah,blah yeah who's going to do.
You know and I'm not saying thatwomen don't do any of those
things.
But let's be fair, come on.
When we talk about the equalityand the gender pay gap and all
the other things, we don't.

(17:20):
We don't want to be down in thesewers cleaning them out.
We don't want to be up a treeduring a storm getting the power
lines back on frontline battle,who's going to be the first
responders?

I mean, yes, there are women who are first
responders I'm not sayingthey're not and women in in the
army, but there are biggerproportionate of men, because
men again, with those masksthere is like the stoic mask or,
like you know, the athlete mask, and those are the men, like
you know, they can put thosemasks on and go into business
and go to war and you know um,push through the pain, push
through the fear and justachieve what they need to do.

(17:53):
And men, I truly believe, cando it better than women because
they compartmentalize.
My apologies, they can.

Fiona Kane (18:01):
There's always exceptions to every rule, but
largely just men are made thatway psychologically and
physically.
It's just how it is right.
And so when you see, like whenthose Californian fires were all
on and you're looking at allthe people, who was there trying
to fight them?
Right, who was there and when?
Like all of these things thathappen, and whenever there's

(18:21):
emergencies, whenever there'sanything where you need, you
know first responders, whatever.
So many of those people are themen in our lives or, just like
for these Californian airheadwomen who were talking about
don't need men.
Well, where do this?
Where does their electricitycome from?
Where does their iphone comefrom?
Where does their internet comefrom?
Where does their water come?

(18:42):
from when they flush the toilet.
What if they start flushing thetoilet and that you know it
doesn't flush right?
What about when they you knowthey're rubbish?
Who removes their rubbish?
Where does that go?
Who delivers their groceries tothe store so that they can buy
the groceries, or you know?

like grocery, like cartons, you know.
Again, it is physical, like youknow, like, and I always joke
around, I'm like as, because Iwork with men, there is that
masculine side of me that comesout, like I'm, and I've always
been, a tomboy, right, but likeI always joke, even if I was
angry at you, when some, some ofthe men you know, they say, oh
well, I was defending myselfagainst her.
And I sometimes say, even if Iwas angry at you and I punched

(19:19):
you, my punch would not hurt asmuch as if you punched me, you
know.
So there's just biologicalthings, no matter how hard I
punched you, like me being five,three, like I'll punch you.
It's like, and some of the guysare like, yeah, it would feel
like like a little toddler, likepunching, you know.
And so if you look at, like armyfirst responders, going back to
that, we need men in thosespaces and with all those masks,

(19:39):
even the athlete mask, thestoic mask, you know, they can
have their positives andnegatives.
So the positive is that theycan switch off, compartmentalize
and go and do the job.
The negative is when they takeit home.
So that's when they take ithome that everyone calls it
toxic masculinity and thesemasks are awful, but it's just
understanding the nature of thebeast and just going.

Fiona Kane (19:58):
There's positives and negatives to every situation
in life, but if we onlydiagnose, like and just go,
that's it, that's the, that'sthe issue, then we're going to
be stuck, you know, um, in likea space where we're all just
against each other yes, youdefinitely, and there's
something that I sort ofsometimes say with my clients,
because a lot of my clients arewomen most of them are, but I've

(20:19):
got a handful of men that I seeand a big part of my job in
nutrition is getting people toconnect to their body right, and
when I talk to men about it,sometimes with men they're not
really connected in that way.
They're connected in other ways, but not in the way that I like
paying attention, listen to thesymptoms and those other things
yes, can I just pause for justone minute?

yeah, yeah, sure, let's pause sorry about that,
guys.

Fiona Kane (20:45):
We just had to pause for a moment.
Uh, what I was talking about isthat, uh, with these men.
I talked to these men whosometimes have trouble
connecting with their body andsometimes, again, people see it
as something wrong with them.
But I just always say, well,it's actually completely natural
Because, if you think about it,they are the ones that I made
to be able to go out and do the.
You know, back in the day itwould have been go out and fight

(21:07):
for the village or catch, youknow, catch the bear or do
whatever.
But you know, if your role isto go out and make it happen and
save the lives of your familyand defend the lives of your
family and all of that kind ofstuff, if that they do, or, you
know, frontline, whatever, ifthey're kind of thinking how do

(21:39):
I feel today and how does mytummy feel?
How does you know and do I havea bit of a headache and what
are my emotions like today?
You know, like it's not goingto work right.
So there's, a reason they'rethat way.
So it's actually not like someterrible fault, it's just
natural and and then in factit's actually, I think, for most

(22:00):
human beings it's.
I'm always over that balancingbecause I think it is actually
really really healthy to be ableto identify and deal with
emotions, but it's also reallyreally healthy to know how to
get on with life and sometimesnot just being your emotions,
because being in your emotions24 7 is also not helpful.
The balance is there, but, yes,what I'm trying to say is I

(22:20):
suppose it's a natural thing formen, for a very good reason.

So, again, it's not looking at everything that
men do that might be differentbit different to us as being
some sort of fault and I thinkwe've all human beings, we have
that masculine and feminineaspects to to us, right, like,
for example, when I, at work, Istep into this masculine space
where, like I'm one of the boysand you know, being a tomboy, I
can relate to them quite well.
We crack jokes, you know, we dotherapy, and I can relate to

(22:44):
them a lot easier, right,because I step into my masculine
.
But then when I get home to mychildren, I fall back into my
feminine, and I think men can dothat too.
So when they fall back intotheir feminine, when they're
with their children or theirpartner and they're that soft,
it's funny because men will beall soft around their partner
and give them cute little petnames and then in front of the
boys they're like, hey, babe.
But then at home they're likeyou're so cute.

(23:06):
So men also fall into theirfeminine and they can fall into
their masculine.
But I think when we absolutelylabel and diagnose the masculine
as being unhealthy andencouraging men to be more
feminine all the time, I thinkthat's where, like, men are
getting confused as to what am Iand who am I, and so that's
where, a lot of the times, whenthey're not able to connect to

(23:26):
their body and emotions.
They don't understand, andthat's biological, that they
will have trouble sometimesconnecting to their you know
emotions and their body.
But when you're sort oflabeling that as like for
example in my work, like as aperpetrator, like they're a
perpetrator because they can'tfeel emotions, they're a
perpetrator because, you know,they don't feel empathy, but
again, like similar to the bookwhen I was reading, I have so

(23:48):
much compassion for that becausethey're not, and I absolutely
hate the word perpetrator and Ihate the word like bad and evil.
And you know, I once saw atraining around domestic
violence and the name of thetraining was called bad to the
bone and I was like, oh, thatjust kind of gave me a bit of a
feeling Because I think, no,they're not bad to the bone,
they're not.
They just don't maybe understandsome of the coping skills or

(24:10):
they don't understand their role, you.
And so when I talk to them Idon't use the words bad, evil,
dangerous, I use the words safeand unsafe, because if you sort
of learn in your life to balanceout, like you know, there's
times when, um, like I, might beunsafe but it doesn't make me a
bad person.
All I need to do is work backto my values, go back to my core

(24:30):
and be, you know, safe and usethat terminology.
So I use the terminology safeand unsafe because that I feel
takes away some of that stigmaand shame around men not being
able to express themselves.

Fiona Kane (24:41):
Yes, look, and I understand in the way that
you're explaining it, Iunderstand that I personally do
think there is such thing asevil.
I've lived for long enough tosee what it looks like.
So I do believe that there isthat and I do think there are
some people who are very badpeople and I personally believe
there are some people who can'tbe.
You know, who can't be won'tchange, they're going to stay

(25:03):
that way.
So that's my personal belief.
But in saying that, I alsounderstand what you're saying,
as in I feel like if you just gointo a whole group of people
and just say everyone who who,uh, you know, commits a certain
crime or does a certain thing,they're all evil and bad and
like bad to the bone kind ofthing, obviously that's not true
and there's a lot of reasonswhy people will commit these

(25:26):
crimes or why they might beviolent and that sort of stuff.
So I think that, yes, you don'tjust label everyone as evil.
Uh, you go in there and youwork on what's going on behind
the scenes but I do certainlybelieve there are a percentage
of people women includedactually who are evil.
That's just my personal thing.
But I understand what you'resaying about the language and

(25:46):
what your distinction is.

Yeah, but, fiona, you're right, there are people
that are, you know, I guess, badto the bone in a way, and it's
called the dark triad.
So, right, there are peoplethat are, you know, I guess, bad
to the bone in a way, and it'scalled the dark triad, and like
when you, uh, so there'sresearch done and they call it
the dark triad, because the darktriad composes of maculism, who
the people just want to see theworld burn down for no reason.
You've got your narcissist thatfall into that category, so
like actually clinical,diagnosed narcissist.

(26:08):
And then you have your psych,your psychopathy, which is like
your sociopaths and yourpsychopaths, right?
So that's 15% of the population, of both men and women, that
fall into that category.
So, and in my 10 years, though,I have to say, I've only met
three men that I would literallydiagnose as like sociopaths and
narcissists, three out of 10years, you know.
So there is, there is apercentage of it, but it's not

(26:31):
as big as we think.
And I think, you know, again,with some of these podcasts,
that people like again, diagnose, and I'm a massive fan of not
diagnosing, because the wordnarcissist gets thrown around so
easily, you know, oh, my ex wasa narcissist, he was a
narcissist.
And you know, or like she was anarcissist or whatever, like I
actually banned that word in my,in my practice, like all the

(26:52):
guys know that they're likeAlison, won't let us say it,
we'll get in trouble.
Because I, literally, whenthey've used it in the past, I
pulled out my DSM-5 and I go, oh, if you think so, let's go
through the category and seewhich ones say tick.
And they're like no, don't dothat.
And I'm like no, we want to usethat word, let's use no.

(27:15):
And then I'll be like so.
Here's the difference.
People can have.
Narcissistic behaviors doesn'tmake them a narcissist, it just
makes them a bit of an asshole.
They just garbage humanssometimes, but they're not
narcissists.
You know, come on.
So yeah, do bad.
I'm like you can call her anasshole and call her like a
human garbage person.
If that's how you feel, useyour words.
You know, feel those emotionsand heal.
Like you know, when I work withthe men.
But narcissists, I'm like no.
Until you met a true narcissist, you will not know a narcissist

(27:36):
.
Until you met a true sociopath,you will not know what that's
like.
You know, and I've looked intothose faces.
Like I once worked with a manwho killed his partner.
He had no like when we sort oftry to talk about the crime.
He had no remorse.
Um, he had no remorse for herfamily because she had daughters
.
He had no remorse for it and heactually got quite annoyed.
He was like I don't want totalk about it, like I don't care

(27:58):
, like I literally don't care.
And then he dropped out ofcounseling because he just did
not care that he killed someoneand you know the way he, like
you know, it wasn't even like aI don't know, like it wasn't
even something like big, it wasjust like she didn't.
He didn't agree with her andthat was evil like I've seen
evil.

Fiona Kane (28:13):
But that's why I wanted to clarify, because some
people and I know myself, I'mthe same there's certain things
that you'll hear on a podcast.
You'll be like what?
So it's good to clarify.
There is evil, and that isabsolutely an example of evil,
where people's lives and whatyou do to them means absolutely
nothing to you.
So there is that of people, butthat's not who we're here to

(28:36):
focus on today.
So we're here to focus on, youknow, regular people who are
doing their best, who may begetting it wrong or they haven't
had the rights of passage orthey haven't had the right
support.
So, if we sort of go back intosort of looking at, you know,
young men and you know, likewe've talked about we they often

(28:57):
being, you know, toxicmasculinity and all that kind of
stuff what are some of thethings that you feel that we can
do in our society to supportthese men and these young men,
uh, or even boys, uh, and, andyou know, to make it, to make it
better for them and to so thatthey don't feel like they need
to be listening to Andrew Tate?
What are the things in oursociety that we could be
offering?

I think you know if I look at it from two lenses,
there's your clinical lens.
You know that the work I do andI look at it as a parent
because I've got three boys, solike I'm a boy mom, and so from
like a clinical perspective, Ithink working with adolescent
boys or men, it's all aboutnormalizing masculinity and
removing the stigma and shamefrom it, right, helping them not

(29:38):
feel shame for feeling certainthings or doing certain things,
helping them be aware of theiremotions and regulate them
accordingly.
So, and I say it's okay toswitch on and switch off, you
know, but like, say, for example, fifo guys, like I've heard so
many times, it's heartbreakingfor them because every week or
every two weeks, every threeweeks, they have to literally
leave their family and go.

Fiona Kane (29:58):
And clarifying for people, fifo is fly in, fly out.
So there's a lot of thosepeople in, especially in Western
Australia, because there's alot of mining community there,
so there's a lot of people whofly in and fly out for their
work.
So, as you were saying, twoweeks've.
Actually my cousin's a FIFOworker, so I think he does five
weeks at a time.
So he lives not far from Sydneybut he flies over to Western

(30:21):
Australia and I think he does Ithink it's five weeks at a time,
and then he gets home for fiveweeks and away for five weeks.
So I'll let you keep going, butpeople are like what's a FIFO?

Sorry, we use acronyms, don't we?
We love it, but yeah, no.
So FIFO guys talk about thisidea of leaving their family and
they have to switch off.
Like you know, what some ofthem even do is they don't even
step into their work gear untilthey get to their work.
So, like some, some men willwear their work gear from the
time they leave their house ontothe plane and then they'll just
kind of jump into work.
But there's some men who it'sso hard for them to switch off
that they will leave their ownclothes on, get on the plane in

(30:57):
their own clothes and then whenthey step into that camp, that's
when they'll put on theiruniform, right.
And so there are times when youhave to switch on or switch off.
But you have to normalise that,not just say because you switch
off, you're toxic or whatever,you're a narcissist or a
sociopath or whatever, becausethere are times when you have to
switch off.
But it's normalizingmasculinity, normalizing

(31:19):
emotions and how you can switchon and switch off, normalizing
shame, because I think a bigpart of also today's society
like with that lacking of thatrites of passage is that there's
a lot of shame around thingsmen do and if they do.
If they do, if they do error,then you know the whole world
collapses back on them and it'sjust understanding that you may
do unsafe things, but you're nota bad person, you're not an

(31:40):
evil person.
You know, I had a client infront of me sit down yesterday
and say he thinks he's evilbecause of the things he does.
And I said to him no, you'vejust grown up in so much trauma
that the way your brain is wiredis that you switch off more
than others.
Trauma that the way your brainis wired is that you switch off
more than others.
But it doesn't mean you don'thave a soul.
Because he was saying he's soevil he doesn't even have a soul
.
And it broke my heart rightbecause he was 30, 38, so his

(32:03):
whole life he's been living likethat.
And I was like, no, you do havea soul, we all have a soul.
It might just be buried a bitdeeper down.
Your emotions, empathy might beburied a bit deeper down, but
you do have it.
So it's like normalizing shame,emotions, masculinity, and so
that's from a clinicalperspective right.
From a parent perspective, Ithink it's kind of the same, but
on a lesser degree.

(32:24):
So doing things like talking toyour children, your boys, about
like pornography, for example,and helping them understand that
that is not the real world.
I think that's a big step.
Like, if we go back to thatincel conversation, like a lot
of them think that that's whatwomen are like, because the
wording that they use in theincel community for women are
like fembots and like breedersand that kind of stuff, right.
So like it's like, yeah,talking to your young boys that

(32:47):
pornography is not the realworld and pornography is not
like that's not how men andwomen should be.
You know, talking to your boysabout nutrition, you know
looking after themselves,especially when they hit puberty
.
Like my oldest, he hit pubertyand he had hormonal, or he has
hormonal acne, and so it's likesupporting him through that,
because he went from being thiscute little blue-eyed every like
the first son born in like theentire family.

(33:09):
So everyone was like, oh my god, you're so cute to now he's
like I'm, I'm so ugly, you know.
So I have to keep like you know, talking to him about it and
normalizing that.
This is like hormonal acne andyou will pass and this will pass
.
But if I wasn't, for example, Icould easily see him stepping
into that incel community spacebecause you know he does feel
like he's left out.
He does feel like he's hated ornot popular at times.

(33:31):
So then you know, having thoseconversations with him to
normalise his space and it'snormal to feel like that, you
know it's okay that you feelthat, but turn that pain into
lessons, you know.
So talk to your boys more.
I think just talk to your boysmore and just yeah.

Fiona Kane (33:46):
And I think, too, what you were just saying.
There too, I think we need to.
And look, this is a we won't godeep into and I have talked
about this on the podcast beforeand this is without notice for
you, so it's up to you how muchyou want to delve into this.
But I've got a big issue aroundbasically transing the kids,

(34:07):
and I think that we need tonormalize puberty and I think
that we're not normalizingpuberty.
So these kids are going throughpuberty and they're thinking
that, oh, it must mean I'm inthe wrong body or there's
something wrong with me orwhatever it is.
And the truth is that puberty isreally hard and when we're in
puberty, we really don't feelconnected to our body, we really

(34:27):
don't enjoy being our body.
It feels wrong, and for so manyreasons.
So you get the acne or you lookweird, because we tend to look
weird when we're in that spacebetween you know, it might be a
cute child, but adolescence andpuberty doesn't always look so
cute, you know.
But then there's another sideof it, like you grow up and you

(34:49):
get to the other side of it.
So it's a bit like the cocoonthing with the butterfly.
You know the caterpillar to thebutterfly yeah and so I think
that we just need to, because II've heard a lot of interviews
with um, the transitioners, whosay that no, no one told them
that it was normal, that all thethings I was going through were
normal, and so I think that welike and we either don't talk

(35:15):
about things or we do, but weover-pathologize them and turn
them into like a diagnosis.
Yeah, when a lot of things arejust normal, puberty is hard and
you know, for girls it's hard.
I've talked about this on thisbefore but for girls puberty, I
just know for my experience iswhen suddenly, you know, you
start sort of getting curves orwhatever, and then suddenly boys

(35:37):
and men start looking at youdifferently, and some of them in
quite an uncomfortable andmaybe even a kind of almost a
dangerous or kind of you knowreally, uh, uh, really feel like
they pray kind of way yeah yeah, it's very frightening and very
.
It's really awful actually andit's really challenging.

(35:58):
So, uh, every everyone that haschallenges around puberty and
what that feels like and whatthat is like, and it is really
normal.
So I think that normalizing itand just reassuring whether it's
young men, young women, that alot of these things are really
really normal, but they justthey kind of they sort
themselves out on the other sideyou'll be be fine, kind of

(36:19):
thing, cause most of the timeyou are.

Yeah, I hit puberty when I was 12.
So, like, I got my period, Ithink I was 11, 12.
And then, as soon as, like, Igot my period and hit puberty,
my curves were like from beingflat chest like bang, like boobs
, like you know, bang butt andand so I hated sport because,
like I went from being able torun and play soccer with the
boys to now like this boing,boing, boing and I was like I

(36:43):
used to, like I used toliterally write fake notes and
from like my mom and be likeplease excuse Alison, from sport
today because, or like I woulddouble bra it sometimes, like
I'd double bra it and also put asports top, like a sports bra,
and then my t-shirt and that was, you know, a big part of me
growing up was like getting usedto my body because, like my
boobs grew before I grew, youknow, and so I would get boys
staring at it and the dynamicsdid change to the point where I

(37:06):
remember like being a tomboyusually, like when I did hit
puberty, I kind of like burieddeeper, deeper into it in like
my late teens and my 20s, whereI was like the tomboy to the max
, so I'd wear like my friends.
When we'd go out, they'd goclubbing in dresses.
I'd wear like um, like adidas,like swish pants or like you
know the ones where you'd walkin that goes, you know, like

(37:27):
fancy trackies, and I'd wearlike a bucket hat and I was
literally like the Missy Elliottof my group, like you know.
So Missy Elliott like, ifpeople don't know, she was just
a tomboy and she would like wrap, but she would also dress with
like bucket hats and like Adidasand Adidas jackets and Adidas,
you know pants and like shoesand that sort of stuff.
So I literally was like a MissyElliott, like you know, growing

(37:47):
up and it made me feel in someway safe.
And it was only in my latetwenties, like when I was 27,
that I was like, oh, I can be agirl now, because I finally felt
like I grew into my body andthat's when I did my hair and my
nails and you know all of thatkind of stuff.
But yeah, it is a transitionperiod and I think, like I keep
saying, like, talk to your kids,talk to each other, like
normalizing those things and notjust hoping it'll sort itself

(38:09):
out, because it doesn't and thenchildren will jump online and
then they will again do thatdiagnosis thing that we keep
talking about.
That I absolutely hate and thediagnosis part and so and
they'll gravitate towardsparticular groups and even if it
doesn't quite sit with them,they will gravitate towards that
group and they will diagnosethemselves, as you know,
whatever the topic is on those,on those TikToks or podcasts

(38:30):
that they watch.
So, yeah, I think it is.
The internet can be a greatspace, but it can also be a very
dangerous space, especially ifit's not what's the word like
monitored?

Fiona Kane (38:43):
as a parent, yes, yeah, definitely, and we have to
.
I think that the old fashionedhaving dinner with your family
around the table thing in theevening might seem old fashioned
, but it has a you know it's, itworks really well.
It works for a reason becausewe really do need to be having
discussions with our kids.

(39:03):
And I think that you know myexperience.
Look, I, I don't have children.
So, you know, sometimes I feellike I'm coming across as really
judgmental and that's not theintention, but just saying my
observations is when I, you know, when I was a child and we went
to visit people or they visitedour house, whatever, we had to
be really polite and we had tolearn to sit and talk to them

(39:25):
and we'd go and sit with them atthe dinner table and you know,
and then we might at some pointbe dismissed and allowed to go
and run off and play, but wewere expected to engage with
visitors and engage with adultsaround us.
What I've seen a lot of over thelast few years is children that
are not encouraged to engage,not expected to engage, actually
so much so that they don't evenlook at you when you walk in

(39:48):
the door and acknowledge you orsay hello to you and they're in
their game or whatever, or theybring their games or their
phones to the dinner table andthey spend their whole time with
their face and they get likethat sort of thing.
That's not helping.
We need to actually be able toteach our children how to have
conversations, how to talk toadults, how to talk about
difficult things, how you knowjust how to, how to converse

(40:10):
yeah, um.

So for me I guess being ethnic, that's always
been part of my life, like youknow family would come over and
you'd be like hi auntie, hiuncle, you'd give them a hug, a
kiss, and then you'd have tolike you'd not have to, but you
had to sit down and kind of makeconversation of like what's
what have you been up to,where's your life?
Blah, blah, blah.
And then, yeah, after a whilethen you kind of leave and go
play with your cousins and allthat kind of stuff.

(40:34):
So for me I've grown be likeElijah, come talk to, like you
know, your godmother or whateveryou know, talk with us.
So I think it's important, likeI said, to, like you said, to
include children, because italso teaches respect.
You know like we talk about.
If you go all the way back tothe start of the podcast with
that discipline idea, you knowall kind of weaves together
because respect, respectingothers also links to respecting

(40:54):
your body and respectingyourself.
Right, and that's how you builddiscipline.
And I think if you, if you havea culture of like people,
children that are not respectingelders, that are not learning
from them even you knowlistening and they're not, then
they're in turn, not respectingtheir body, and then, in turn,
they will then gravitate towardsthe andrew tate's or the incel
communities, or whatever it is,because those are all quick
fixes you know, definitely,definitely.

Fiona Kane (41:17):
And one thing that Jordan Peterson talks about a
lot I can't remember the exactlanguaging around it, but
essentially he just talks abouthow having responsibility is
actually really, really good forus and it's actually what makes
us happy in life and it's whatgives us meaning in life.
And so I think the other thingtoo, for you know in my

(41:39):
observation, is that childrenneed to be given certain levels
of responsibility, and not thatI mean not overly done and not
responsible for their parentsEvery dinner yeah, but you know,
but not no responsibility aswell.
Like people, sometimes they justgo one way or the other, don't
they?
They go a bit extreme one wayor the other, but children, if

(42:00):
they have responsibility, theyactually respond really really
well to it, and so I thinkthat's an important thing as
well.
Is that you agree?

Oh, absolutely, because there's also with
responsibility, comes this termwhich is called optimum
frustration.
Right and like when I used towork with children because I've
been in this industry for 18years now, coming up to 19, and
so when I would work with theparents and children because I
was a child and adolescentcounselor for one before I
worked with the men I would talkabout.
This idea of optimumfrustration is that our children
need to build a level ofoptimum frustration in their

(42:31):
lives, whether it'sresponsibility, or like chores,
or like not getting what theywant all the time, because
that's what's going to buildresilience.
You know, that's how we build,that's how we learn to pick
ourselves up when we fall down,because we have experienced that
little level of optimumfrustration.
Now again, like you I'm notsaying you know, make them slave
away on every night dinner or,like you know, start working and
doing a paper round at the ageof like five or six or you know

(42:54):
whatever else.
It is so, but don't always sayyes and create that some level
of optimum frustration in theirlife.
So they are, and that alsolinks to like anxiety, because
when children don't have anoptimum frustration, alongside
not having that resiliencecapacity, to them.
Anxiety is a big part of it,because it's like I can't do
things now.
Or if I fall over, how do Ipick myself up?

(43:15):
And then anxiety becomes a bigthing, but again undo things now
.
Or if I fall over, how do Ipick myself up?
And then anxiety becomes a bigthing, but again I'm very much
like I'm not diagnosing.
So when people say I haveanxiety, I'm like is that the
clinical definition?
Should we go into the dsm-5 andlook at a generalized anxiety
disorder or is it just you'reanxious?
Again, normalizing beinganxious, it's totally okay.
But don't be like oh, I haveanxiety, you anxiety, you know.

(43:35):
I'm like okay, dr Google.

Fiona Kane (43:37):
Yes, you experience anxiety maybe.

But that doesn't mean it's a diagnosis, yeah.
You don't have generalizedanxiety disorder, you know.

Fiona Kane (43:48):
I think that's an issue too, is that?
What you were just talkingabout?
There is that if children don'thave challenges and they don't
learn that they can, you knowyou can find your way back from
the shops, or you can pack thedishwasher, or you can, whatever
the thing is right, you canmake a phone call, whatever the
thing is that you're, whateverlevel, age and all that, et

(44:10):
cetera.
When you get to do things, youget to be more confident in
yourself and you get to knowthat you can do things mastery,
mastery of tasks, mastery yes,exactly, and so we need that.
But the other thing, too, that,uh, that I see happening is in
universities and things.
You know, I see it across theus, but I'm also seeing it in

(44:32):
australia, where students can'thave someone come and speak at
the university who has adifferent opinion, because they
feel triggered.
It's like, oh, so what?
Like I thought the whole pointof university was actually to go
and learn how to explore lotsof different opinions and how to
debate and how to talk about itand how to, you know, open your
mind to all different ways ofthinking about things.

(44:53):
But they, you know, they don't,they're the opposite.
They kind of we don't want adifferent opinion and they feel
threatened by a differentopinion or by different language
, different opinion, and theywant safe spaces.
They actually provide safespaces where they can go and do
colouring in if they feeltriggered by something that's

(45:14):
uncomfortable.
Surely they need to learn howto be uncomfortable.

Yeah, I think, again, that comes back to that
optimum resistance and, you know, getting different opinions
from different people, although,like, I do disagree a little
bit with you because I thinksometimes some people like
celebrities, sports, you know,they use very biased because
there is like spectrums ofeverything, right, there's
spectrums in religion, there'sspectrums in masculinity,
femininity, there's spectrums ineverything.
But when you get someone that'slike the end version of the

(45:40):
spectrum, that's speaking inschools or colleges, like there
was this, the Super Bowl, one ofthe footballers that won the
Super Bowl last year, he wastalking at a university in
America and you know, I mean hestarted off, okay, he's a
religious background, and youknow that the I mean he started
off, okay, he's a religiousbackground.

(46:01):
His mom is actually a physicist, so I'm guessing she maybe
wasn't around a lot, um, so youknow, when he was talking, he
goes.
Although you women aregraduating today, I bet the one
thing that you're really excitedabout is, you know, the one day
when you'll get married andcook and clean for your man.
So I think that is a trueachievement, because my wife
didn't come into her own untilshe became a wife and started
cooking and cleaning for me.
Like to me that's the extremistversion.

(46:22):
Like there's women that havestudied hard and they've, you
know, pushed through all theirresistance and all of that, you
know, persevered, and for him toabsolutely like shit all over
it and be like this doesn't evenmatter because the only thing
that will matter is when you getmarried and become a housewife
like to me that that's uncalledfor.
Like you can have yourreligious beliefs and stuff.
But to me that opinion camemore from his childhood trauma,

(46:44):
not from, maybe, what he trulybelieves.
You know I mean.

Fiona Kane (46:47):
So I think that's like that that's a I suppose
that is a whole other topic andthat we could.
We could talk about that forhours, but what?
The only thing I would say tothat is like, regardless of what
he did or didn't say, it didn'tharm someone.
You could just think, oh, Idon't agree.
And not only that, but thething at university is a lot of
the people that go and speak.
I think that might have been agraduation or something, so

(47:10):
that's more specific whereeveryone goes.
But what I was referring to isthe ones where you don't even
have to go.
It's just like hey, like youknow, so-and-so is going to come
and talk, like Ben Shapiro orsomeone, right, he's going to
come and talk at the university.
You don't even have to go.
But what they're doing isthey're trying to stop it from
even happening and they'retriggered because it happened,

(47:31):
even though they don't have toactually have anything to do
with it, and I think that thatis wrong.
People should be able to speakin all different and you don't
have to go, you don't have toagree with it.
And but also, yeah, if that guysays that the trad wife thing
and like, some people are allfor that, some people aren't
whatever.
Like wherever you fall on that,that's fine.
But even if a guy gets up andsays trad, wife, stuff, like it

(47:52):
didn't hurt you, it was just adifferent opinion and you can,
just you can accept or reject it, you know what I mean.
Like, but it's not harming you.

I think I think it does.
Like I mean, I'm a bit of ageek right and so I always like
um, refer to like the suit, thespider-man quote, which is, like
, with great power comes greatresponsibility, right and like I
think, when you're in a spaceof like having power, um, what
you say matters, right, and likeit might not have physically
hurt someone.
But say, like a woman wasreally trying hard, like she

(48:20):
came from a minority backgroundor she came from a poor
background and she had to pushthrough Princeton and you know
all of those kinds of things.
And you know, like driver,catch a bus like two hours, and
then for him to say, no, thisdegree doesn't matter and you
need to be a trad wife, I thinkno, it didn't physically hurt
her, but it still it would stingme.
But then I guess for me as aperson and I'm speaking

(48:40):
personally for myself I wouldtake that as a you're telling me
I can't do it.

Fiona Kane (48:44):
I'm going to do it and so it kind of it can.

But then that goes back to, I guess, again
what I was talking about before,that idea of having resilience.
So yes, it did hurt people inthere.
I can guarantee it hurt thememotionally, but it's how they
pick themselves back up.
Because you know, when I wasworking in men's behaviour
change for the government andNGOs and stuff like that, the
way I worked they didn't like itbecause I was a social worker.

(49:07):
So I'd want to do thecounselling plus the men's
behaviour change program andthey were like no, you're not
their social worker, you're nottheir counsellor, the counselor.
So then that's when I sort ofquit my job and I started my
company.
But I know, when I first started, like people were like no, you
can't do it, like do you knowhow hard it is?
Do you know you have to stickto all the guidelines there's
like a massive Bible size, likeguidelines, and I literally was
like you know what that's goingto push me and give me more

(49:29):
motivation and I'm going to doit.
And within like a month of likequitting my job, I'd literally
created the whole program and Istarted practicing by the second
month, you know.
So, yes, I think that idea ofresilience, optimum, frustration
, responsibilities, discipline,all of those things kind of come
together right Like so.
I think those are important,but I also do think what you say
matters as well.

Fiona Kane (49:49):
So yeah, yeah, what you say matters, but at the same
time, I just think you've gotto teach people to be tougher
and I think that you can justsay, hey, look, this guy said
something I disagree with it andI'm going to prove him wrong,
right, and the thing is, but youcan survive it, right?
You have a different opinion,but you will survive.
You know, and I think that Idon't know, I'm a Gen Xer and

(50:11):
I'm just of a generation whereit's like, oh man, I just don't
believe in banning everythingand calling everything hate
speech, because the problem is,once you go down that rabbit
hole, then who decides what ishate?
Right, because hate.
Like you could hate somethingbecause you're religious and I
say something and that offendsyou, right, or I could hate

(50:32):
something if I wasn't religiousand you said something that I
felt, you know, like it goes onforever and it's the same thing.
I shall give you another exampleis, at the moment I see, like
the companies sort of doing anopt-out thing for Mother's Day,
marketing, right, because peoplemight get upset.
And now, look, I personally,now I hate Mother's Day.

(50:52):
My mum's passed, I don't havekids, so to me I don't like it
at all.
It's not a fun time for meanymore, but that's a me problem
and I don't think everyone inthe whole world has to not
celebrate Mother's Day, so Ifeel better.
And if the marketing companiesstart getting people to opt out
of marketing for Mother's Day sothey don't feel offended or

(51:14):
upset in any way, then the nextthing they're going to have to
do it for Father's Day andthey're going to have to do it
for Christmas and they're goingto have to do it for Easter,
because everything couldpotentially be offensive or
upsetting for someone.
And the truth is in lifesometimes we just have to know
that we're going to haveemotions and we're going to have
experiences and people aregoing to talk about Mother's Day
and I'll probably feel sad onMother's Day about my mum

(51:36):
because people are talking aboutit.
But should the whole worldchange their behaviour so that I
don't have an emotion?
Or is that just a me problem?
And I actually think that'sjust a me problem.

I agree with you, like I mean in that little bit,
a little bit not, but I dothink a lot of the stuff around
like I'm triggered and you knowall of that is it's a me problem
.
You know, around like I'mtriggered and you know all of
that is it's a me problem.
You know, like I'm offended,it's a me problem.
But I think certain things,again, like I go back to, is
when you have great power or youhave a position of power, when

(52:10):
you do say certain things, itdoes turn into hate speech
because it is excluding people,it is, you know, creating, you
know, barriers when theyshouldn't be barriers, right?
So that is.
Hate speech is when it hurtspeople, it creates barriers, it
creates division.
But I don't think we understandagain the definition of hate
speech because, again, onlineand podcasts and all of that,
but hate speech does exist outthere, it's just not everything

(52:30):
and you know like, for mepersonally I don't like Mother's
Day, even though I'm a mum andI have a mum.
But the reason I hate it isbecause I remember before my son
, my oldest, I took Mother's Dayin kindy.
There it was pre-primary.
All the mums went in and thekids pampered the mums, like
painting their nails and givingthem little cupcakes and showing
them around the classroom andstuff like that.
And there was this one girl whodidn't have a mum because her

(52:53):
mum passed away, because my kidsgo to private Catholic school,
so literally every kid in therehas like both parents and all
the parents were married, right,all that kind of crap.
So this one girl just didn'thave a mom and so it just broke
my heart, you know.
So I think, yeah, I don't know,like I personally don't like
Mother's Day for that reason.
But it's again, it's a me thing, and so if my kids do give me

(53:15):
like you know what they've made,I'm not going to be like oh,
whatever, like I'll be likethank you, babies, and I'll hug
them and kiss them and all thatkind of stuff.
But yeah, just because I don'tlike Mother's Day, I don't know,
you know, I don't know if thatshould be totally banned.
I don't like Father's Dayeither.
I don't think that should bebanned, but we need to be very

(53:37):
specific about the definition ofhate speech.

Fiona Kane (53:39):
Yeah, yeah, and that's where I think the problem
lies.
And who decides what thedefinition is and the way I see
it being used, like there's away that maybe it could be or
should be used, and obviouslyhate speech is kind of like I
hate a certain race and I wantthem all killed or something.
That is hate speech.

The way it's being.
I see it being branded isspeech I don't like hearing.

Fiona Kane (54:06):
There's a difference between something you don't
like hearing and somethingthat's really hate speech.

Like even Katy Perry was recently accused of,
like you know, spreading hatespeech when she went and like
flew in the little when she wasan astronaut and all that kind
of stuff.
So people were like hating onher so much online.
So, yeah, there is that um,because we do have social media
so accessible on our phones thatwe do um, you know, I can get
diagnosed.
This is hate speech andwhatever.
But true hate speech is likethe kkk right.

(54:31):
True hate speech is, like youknow, people like killing each
other in the name of religion,like all of those exactly.

Fiona Kane (54:37):
So that's the thing.
And even like what you weretalking about with the diagnosis
and like labeling someonenarcissist or whatever the
problem is, I think that whatwe're doing is we're actually,
if we like you don't ifeveryone's a narcissist, then no
one is, then the definitiondoesn't mean anything.
And I say the same thing, likeif everyone's a Nazi, then what

(54:57):
is a Nazi?
You know, like there's all thiskind of stuff.
So I just think that when weuse a whole lot of language or
we call everything hate speechbecause we don't like it, or you
know, I think when weover-pathologize the world and
turn everything into like hateand dangerous and this and that
and Nazi, blah, blah, blah, itactually waters it down for the
true situations where there istrue evil or there is true hate

(55:19):
speech or there is truenarcissism or whatever it is.
I just think that we water itdown when we use the language in
everyday language and just forthings that make us
uncomfortable, and I personallythink that we should actually
learn how to be uncomfortable.
Sometimes it's good for us.

You know, as a counselor, we're taught, um, to
lean into your discomfort.
Lean into, that's how you grow,that's how you learn, that's
how you learn to tolerate peoplelike I mean, people sit in
front of me with all differentkinds of opinions, right, and
it's like I didn't like someone,I'm not going to be, like, get
out of my room.
I mean, I've had to say thatonce to one guy that was quite
um, like aggressive and all ofthat kind of stuff, you know.

(55:55):
But aside from that again, um,so yeah, like you learn to lean
into your discomfort.
That was one of my biggestlessons in life when I was in my
20s and training to be acounsellor and I would actually
recommend it, especially inregards to things like politics.

Fiona Kane (56:08):
It's actually, I think, it's really healthy to
listen to like I will listen topodcasts of like podcasts I
don't agree with.
I will listen to them so I canhear their perspective.
So it's actually, I think,really healthy, and even it look
it might, just it might.
You might just reconfirm whatyou already know, but know it a
bit deeper, or you might learnsomething new, or you might just

(56:31):
learn a bit about how tohumanize the person with a
different opinion, which is fineas well.
But I actually think it'sactually really good just to
sometimes listen to things thatyou don't agree with, because I
think that there's alwaysopportunity to learn, and even
if what you learn is that thatperson's a human on the other
side that's useful.
But anyway, you and I, we couldgo on for hours.
Obviously, there's so manythings we can talk about, but

(56:52):
let's just wind it up here.
Look, thank you so much forcoming on today.
Look, I will put your contactdetails in the show notes, but
where can people find you ifthey want to find you?

um.
So you can find me on Instagramit is SagencyWA
S-A-G-E-N-C-Y-W-A, or you canfind me on all the W's dot
SagencyWAcomau.
Or if you just google Perth'smen's behavior change, we are
the first link that comes up.
I didn't actually realize that.
So when people check in ongoogle and stuff, and the more

(57:23):
check-ins that you have ongoogle, the higher you go up the
page.
I didn't realize that.
So when I saw it the other day,it would blew my mind that
we're the number one.
Um, even though a privatepractice and someone um google's
perts men's behavior change,domestic violence, we're the
first one that comes up.
But yeah, if you just GooglePertz Men's Behaviour Change,
you'll find us there too.

Fiona Kane (57:40):
Okay, great, thank you and, like I said, I'll put
the details in the show notes.
Thank you for coming on today.

I really enjoyed chatting to you.

Fiona Kane (57:46):
Even the things we disagree with.
That's fine.
That's all part of it.

It's conversations that we're having,
you know.
I think that's important tomodel to people, that you can
disagree but do it in arespectful manner, and that
comes with that resilience anddiscipline, all that kind of
stuff you know.

Fiona Kane (58:02):
So thank you so much for as well, for your, we can
both hear something that wedon't like or that we don't
agree with, and guess what?
we're alive we survive if wehear something, uh, which is a
useful thing to learn anyway,but uh, but thank you, I really
do appreciate you coming on and,and for those at home who are
watching or listening, pleaselike, subscribe, share, please

(58:23):
rate and review the podcast.
All of those things will helpmore people hear from this
podcast, and we try and have.
What I try and do is have realconversations about things that
matter, and so these are thekind of things that are worth
sharing with your friends andfamily.

So thank you again, allison okay, have a good
day all right, see you allagain.

Fiona Kane (58:42):
See you all next week.
Thank you, bye.

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Healthy Masculinity vs Toxic Masculinity: (What’s the Real Difference?) | Ep. 118

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Healthy Masculinity vs Toxic Masculinity: (What’s the Real Difference?) | Ep. 118