April 22, 2025 • 53 mins
Self-perception in mental health shapes how we experience the world—and how we recover. In this deeply moving episode of The Wellness Connection, Greg Wasserman shares his personal mental health journey after reaching a breaking point two and a half years ago. Through an intensive healing program, Greg discovered how long-held beliefs like “I’m not good enough” and “I’m a burden” were quietly driving his pain—and how learning to be emotionally vulnerable became the key to reclaiming his life.
This episode is for anyone navigating mental health struggles, those supporting loved ones, or simply anyone curious about emotional growth and connection. Greg’s story offers powerful insights into how we can retrain our inner narratives, build emotional awareness, and embrace vulnerability as a strength—not a flaw.
In this episode, we explore:
The weight of feeling “never good enough”
Why emotional awareness is crucial to healing
How distorted self-perceptions form and how to shift them
Rewriting family expectations and inner narratives
Redefining strength through emotional honesty
Finding belonging through community and conversation
You are not alone. You’re not a burden. And it’s okay to ask for help.
Whatever you're feeling—you're not the only one.
Contact details for Greg:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregwasserman/
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/gregwasserman
Learn more about booking a nutrition consultation with Fiona: https://informedhealth.com.au/
Learn more about Fiona's speaking and media services: https://fionakane.com.au/
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Credit for the music used in this podcast:
The Beat of Nature
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fiona Kane (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection.
I'm your host, Fiona Kane.
Today I have another guest andhis name is Greg Wasserman.
Hi, Greg.
Greg Wasserman (00:11):
Hey, Fiona, great to be here.
Fiona Kane (00:13):
My husband's a Greg, so I quite like Gregs.
I've had good experiences withthem.
We're good people, definitely,definitely.
So today we're going to betalking a little bit about
stress and anxiety, and really,you're going to be sharing your
story and telling us a littlebit about your experiences and
some of the things that you havelearned.
(00:34):
So initially, though, let's getstarted with you.
Just tell us, for anyone whodoesn't know who you are, would
you like to introduce yourself?
Greg Wasserman (00:41):
Well, I'm on the other side of the world here,
so, based in Los Angeles, bornand raised in Chicago, I came
out here for college and justnever left.
Worked in advertising andbusiness for the last 20 plus
years.
Love my family, which we'll betalking about as we discuss the
rest of this today, work inpodcasting and I truly believe
(01:06):
and we'll talk about.
Life is about time andrelationships.
I'm a big believer inconnections.
Fiona Kane (01:13):
Okay, yeah, yeah, so am I.
And already, guys, I've hadquite a few free tips from Greg
on podcasting, so he's beenreally helping me out.
It's really good to connectwith people that say say, hey,
um, maybe if you did this or ifyou did, that'd be really useful
, because I don't know, I justlike to talk about stuff but I
don't really know what I'm doingin regards to the podcasting
(01:35):
world.
So, uh, so, thank you alreadyfor, uh, all the help that
you've given me with a littlebrief uh bits of conversations
and things we've had hey, mypleasure and when and when
listening.
Greg Wasserman (01:43):
I'm here to help .
I want podcasters and I want us, as guests and listeners, to
just have the best experience.
Fiona Kane (01:51):
Yes, yeah, exactly.
So let's get right to it.
You have a bit of a story.
You've told me a little bit ofit.
I've had a bit of a glimpseinto it, but it sounds like an
interesting story and somethingthat maybe a lot of people would
relate to in their own ways.
So maybe start by telling us alittle bit about that.
Greg Wasserman (02:11):
Yeah.
So, as I said, I love my family, but we're here to talk about
them.
In some regards so grew up inChicago, normal, what I would, a
normal household, lovingparents.
I have an older brother, goodpublic schools, great athlete
student but I never understoodwhy I never could find happiness
(02:38):
.
And it wasn't until two and ahalf years ago that I had a
breaking point and really kindof came to terms and realized
what was going on.
And so for me, um, I came torealize that, no matter what I
did, no matter how much I worked, no matter the money I was
(03:01):
making or anything, it justwasn't enough.
But it wasn't a matter ofwasn't enough, it wasn't just I
didn't feel satisfied, I feltincredibly lonely, I felt
inauthentic.
There is nothing but fear in meand, as a result, no matter
what I kept doing, no matter theemotions I kept going through,
(03:25):
I just couldn't figure out whatwas going on.
And so what ended up happeningis my partner at the time
realized that we weren'taligning on where we were
supposed to be.
And she's like Greg, we're notwhere we were supposed to be.
And she, uh, she's like Greg,like we're, we're, we're not
(03:47):
where we thought we would be Umand I had to come clean and I
had to break down and literallytold her like I was having
suicidal thoughts.
I didn't want to be here.
Um and yeah, and so at the endof the day I was lucky that she
(04:20):
was able to at least help me andget me the support I needed,
which allowed me to check into aclinic, and I went through this
three-month intensive programthat literally helped me retrain
my brain.
Through this three-monthintensive program that literally
helped me retrain my brain.
What I came to realize duringthat entire program is why I was
feeling the way I was, and whatI was feeling was I was trying
(04:42):
to live up to the expectationsthat I put on my own mind, my
own self, that came through myfamily.
I'm a big friend of Brene Brownand so a story I love always to
tell that I probably quoteBrene wrong, but it really hit
me once I realized this.
Brene likes to tell a story ofwhen she was a kid and she would
(05:03):
get sick.
Her parents did everything forher, you know, take care of
great loving parents and soforth.
Same experience for me.
Work still got to get done, jobstill got to be done, Food
(05:24):
still got to be there for yourkids, and mom and dad still have
to be mom and dad, even thoughthey are human themselves.
Fiona Kane (05:32):
That's what Brene saw, doesn't she say their
family motto is lock and load,or something along those lines?
Greg Wasserman (05:40):
Right.
And so in her mind, what shesaw was oh, sickness is a
weakness, right, you can't besick, you, you have to keep
going, you have to keep pushingthrough it.
So that's where I had you know,uh.
And so I always look at it as Ihad a lens that my parents, my
family, didn't put on me, but itwas the lens that I saw through
(06:03):
things that I was never goodenough, that it was a burden,
that I had all these negativeviews on myself that made no
sense to anyone.
And so when I finally toldeveryone that I was suicidal,
they're like hold on, if you'relooking at me now like this is
who I am, you would never knowthat I'm not a happy-go-lucky,
(06:25):
that the glass is in half fullkind of person.
But on the inside I was hurtingso bad, and it was through this
program that allowed me torealize hold on, I'm not those
things.
Realize, hold on, I'm not thosethings.
(06:46):
Um, that the biggest lesson washow do you love yourself?
How do I care for myself?
Um, and so it was an incredible, incredible experience.
And then I can say, two yearslater, I'm in a lot better place
than I was, um so, yeah, it'swonderful to hear that you are.
Fiona Kane (07:05):
uh.
One thing I would like to askyou, though and you know I
always like to be careful abouthow I word these things, but you
answer what you want to and howyou want to when you finally
had that conversation with yourpartner now I can only imagine,
because I haven't been in thissituation it must be a huge deal
(07:26):
to even think about saying itto anyone else or admitting this
to anyone else.
So tell me a little bit aboutthat feeling where you don't
really want to tell other peoplewhat's stopping you, but also a
little bit about, well then,what was it like when you
finally did come out?
Come along, come out and sayhow you were feeling.
Greg Wasserman (07:50):
What changed for you?
That's the biggest questionthat I kept having to answer to
myself and not vocalize to otherpeople.
Right, the how do I tell peoplewhat I'm feeling?
How do I tell people what I'mfeeling?
How do I tell people what I'mthinking?
I can't tell people thosethoughts because what are people
going to believe?
(08:10):
What are, what are they goingto think?
So it's part of like go back toBrene, right, like shame, there
was so much shame and so, whileyou keep that all inside, it
allows the shame to foster um asopposed to vulnerability being
the strength.
And so that is all I knew.
Going back to the family onceagain love my parents.
(08:31):
My dad rest in peace.
But like generation where heknew three, I only knew three
forms of emotion happy, angry,sad and the standard guy.
In that regards, you go likehey, craig, how's it going?
(08:52):
I'm fine, that's, that'susually how things were Right.
So, like I had no verbalizationof how do I describe what I'm
feeling, to know that anger isactually a secondary emotion and
that the the underlying is I'mfrustrated, I'm annoyed,
whatever those other emotionsare I had no clue what they were
right no clue, not only whatthose were, because I didn't
know them, I didn't learn thembut also how to vocalize them.
(09:15):
So to have that conversationwith my partner and ultimately
just break down and say like I'mfearful, I'm alone I'm trying
to remember what else I saidbesides just breaking down and
having to tell her that it wasthe hardest thing because I
(09:44):
finally vocalized for the firsttime what I had been feeling and
had never been able to vocalize, not only internally because I
didn't know how to, but also toanother person, and that just
led to the most lonely, lonelyfeeling ever.
Had told her that, but, likethis, now truly felt alone, that
(10:07):
I've now shared this moment,but I feel so alone so initially
, when you told her it didn'tfeel good, it actually felt you
felt quite alone, I mean it'sthe uh vulnerable hang.
Uh.
What is it?
Fiona Kane (10:23):
vulnerability hangover where you tell someone
right talks about yes, yeah, um,that was exactly it uh sharing
your vulnerability.
Greg Wasserman (10:31):
You're like I can't believe I said that.
I can't believe I vocalizedthis.
I can't believe I told someonethat I'm thinking of suicide.
Like I can't believe Ivocalized what I've been feeling
.
And once those words are out,yeah, you're like I can't
believe I did that.
Now someone else knows thesecret.
What are they going to thinkabout me?
(10:53):
How am I thinking about myself?
And you just go through that.
That, uh, that spiral.
Fiona Kane (10:59):
And how long did that last for before it moved
into a place where you knowbecause you were sort of saying
before, in regards tovulnerability it's actually a
strength, not a weakness.
But initially it feels like aweakness, it feels like, oh my
God, I've just laid myself bare,can't put this back in the box,
whatever it is.
How long before you started tofeel more like it was a positive
(11:20):
thing and that it wasultimately a good thing for you?
Greg Wasserman (11:25):
positive thing and that it was ultimately a
good thing for you.
So this program was incredible.
Five days a week what is it?
Eight hours a day, four classes, like it's literally like going
to school.
Four different classes a day,five days a week, so 20 classes
there and every class you are,in a sense, in a group setting
checking in.
How are you feeling so clearly?
(11:46):
Day one, uh, and I'm watching Iwas only male in this group, so
watching all these other womengo around who'd been there
before me talking about whattheir check-in comes to me, it's
like, greg, how you, how youdoing, I'm like I'm fine,
knowing very well this is dayone, I'm overwhelmed, right, but
like then you just startflexing that muscle and and I
think that's been the biggestthing is flexing.
(12:09):
So if we think about what arethe ways to get over stress and
anxiety, just that flex of howdo we check in, how do I share,
whether it's journaling orsharing with other people so
there's two girls that are stillfrom that.
I check in, we do, we do weeklyor whenever we want to check in
with each other, and they'refrom my program.
(12:29):
So two years later, we're alllike, hey, we went through this
together.
This is we're here.
We know and we'll continue tosee our progression.
But I took frivolous notes.
I was like a kid in a school.
I'm like I'm just going to sithere and write down everything
that the teacher said and learnand blow my mind of like wow, I
never thought about that.
(12:50):
So I'd say it was probably.
If I did it 13 weeks I'd saymaybe halfway through that I
could start seeing a majorchange, just not only the way I
thought about myself, but theway I was thinking about all the
different things we werelearning in the program.
Fiona Kane (13:10):
Yeah, so for you it very much was about intensive
learning being part of a program.
It's not sort of sitting aroundat home wondering if it's going
to, if you're going to feeldifferently, because the whole
point is, I suppose, that thethe way you got there, to where
you were, to that point in yourlife, that the thinking that you
had to get to that point wasn'thelpful.
(13:33):
So it was actually to go andlearn a different way of
thinking or a different way ordifferent stories to tell
yourself and different ways of,like you said, identifying
emotions and then knowing whatto do with them.
That's not something that youcould necessarily figure out
sitting at home on your own.
That does require support fromsomewhere else 100%.
Greg Wasserman (13:53):
I mean, look, I was going to therapy before that
moment, but that was the firsttime I did therapy before, or I
guess when I was a kid I didtherapy, but this was the first
time as an adult.
Well, if you don't know what tosay, if you don't know your own
feelings and how to even accessthat, then therapy was great.
(14:14):
It was great in the sense thatI talked about things, but a
program where you are literallyday one you want to twip for
anyone that's listening.
I highly recommend doingidentity map.
That was the biggest breakerbecause I sat there in a group
(14:35):
with strangers and you go okay,what's your identity?
How would you define yourself,right?
So if we look at how Iintroduced myself, like I'm from
Chicago, I live in la, and youjust start going down those
pieces, but then you startrealizing like I'm a burden, I
feel like a loser.
You just start seeing like thewords that you're associating
(14:56):
with yourself, like wow, andthen to see those on the board
and strangers now seeing thatwho've never met you and they
don't know who you are, andyou're like, and the teacher's
like, so how does it feel seeingwhat you think about yourself,
(15:17):
like would a friend say thosethings to you and you're like
probably not, um.
And so going through thatentire emotion of being able to
reprogram your brain to thinkdifferently, to understand the
gift you give to people asopposed to the burden you think
you are to people, is a hugething.
Fiona Kane (15:33):
Yes, and also what you laid out there when you were
talking about the identity mapis that we cannot fix a problem
if we don't know what it is, ifwe don't assess it first.
A problem if we don't know whatit is, if we don't assess it
first.
And if you want to fix a carbut you're not doing any
assessment to see well, why isthat rattle happening or why is
it broken down, you can't justsort of start and think, oh,
(15:54):
I'll just go over and fix thispart over there.
You've got to actually find outwhere it's coming from and even
like a health problem, you needto have the scan or the blood
test or something.
You need a diagnosis.
So this is the same kind ofthing, just saying, well, unless
you know where you're at, youcan't fix it.
Or even just like, actually, youknow what a great example
(16:14):
probably a better example wouldbe a financial example when a
financial planner came to see usa few years ago and things were
quite a mess.
Now you have to actuallyrealistically, realistically,
look at it and go this is whatit looks like right now.
And as hard as that is whetherthat's in regards to your
emotions or any finances, whichcan sometimes be linked.
(16:36):
But when you look at itrealistically and really look at
it and go, oh my God, that iswhere it really is right now,
and really look at it and go, ohmy God, that is where it really
is right now, then you canactually at least, first of all,
understand why whatever's goingon is going on, but then also
you can make steps to make itbetter.
So you can't fix something thatyou're not aware of.
(16:57):
I suppose is what I'm trying tosay.
So that sounds like that's whatthat identity map did for you.
It allowed you to see oh okay,this is what's going on inside
of my head.
Greg Wasserman (17:09):
Having someone ask the questions that you don't
know how to ask yourself, right, so therapists could do that.
But like eight hours a day, fivedays a week of an intense,
different programs, uh,literally then starts to get you
to understand, uh, journalingin a way that you've never
thought about journaling.
When people are like, yeah,just start writing down your
(17:31):
ideas, I'm like, okay, I couldwrite them down, but if you're
given a journal prompt, you gotto go do that.
And so for those listening andwatching, like for me, I was
reading self-help books, I wasgoing down, like I said, brene
Brown, I loved it, therapy.
But it wasn't until I sat in aclassroom setting for me,
(17:54):
intense, know what the questionsthey're asking feel like with a
teacher and you're back intothat classroom setting.
It was like that was the onlyway my brain was going to end up
and you're back into thatclassroom setting.
It was like that was the onlyway my brain was going to end up
reprogramming, as opposed to metrying to do it myself ad hoc,
if we want to look at it thatway.
Fiona Kane (18:11):
Well, when we do it ourselves, it's very.
You know, we're just learninginformation, so we are gathering
new information and new ideas,but it's quite different.
It's like very academic, isn'tit?
And when you actually dolearning, that's experiential
and personal and you ask theright questions, or you ask
(18:35):
yourself the right questions.
It's a very differentexperience.
So you can academically learn alot of things, but just
academically know them and notreally ever integrate them or
understand them at a personallevel.
So, like you said, knowing theinformation is part of it, but
it's actually what you do withthat information yeah, that was.
Greg Wasserman (19:00):
I would say that's definitely the key, um
and then.
So, after those 13 weeks, um,it's been important to continue
to do check-ins.
Gratitude Um, I didn't knowwhat gratitude was you asked me
to, to write gratitude every day.
It was incredibly impossible.
(19:20):
So now you know gratitude jar,where you're realizing I have a
place.
You know, I live in Los Angeles.
A lot of people I know losttheir homes.
We were talking about a stormcoming.
So who knows who's gettingimpacted by that.
So grateful that I've got thosethings.
It's just like simple thingsthat now start changing your
(19:41):
mind and taking things that youhad for granted.
Is you know what?
No, this isn't.
And if we go back to my originstory, so the reason I was what
I was is my mom's parents wereHolocaust survivors.
So my mom always said anythingthat happens, how do I compare
(20:03):
this to the Holocaust?
And what my parents wentthrough my grandparents went
through right.
So that whole mentality is ifyou're always comparing what I'm
going through can't be as badas anything else because that is
the most horrific thing, thenyour mindset is like, well, then
I just got to push through it.
Or you know what?
This isn't bad, dust it off.
(20:23):
But you really start realizinghold on, my pain is okay to have
, it's okay to sit in this, it'sokay to recognize you know what
?
Maybe my pain, in comparison,is a death to all of us.
So if I'm comparing my pain toyour pain, going like, well,
yeah, you're probably worse, butlike that doesn't negate the
pain I'm in, and so justchanging that entire mindset of
(20:46):
going like it's okay to be notokay.
It's okay to take a moment torest.
It's okay to not always be go,go, go, and I'm very much of a
go go, go guy.
Fiona Kane (21:00):
Yeah, yeah, and look that context thing, I get the
context thing.
I think it is good for us toall know that, generally
speaking, there are other peoplein the world who are probably
doing it worse than us most ofthe time.
So it is useful as a contextthing to not stay in victimhood
forever and ever and ever, tounderstand that, yes, the
(21:21):
Holocaust happened and yes,obviously that is a good thing.
To just have that knowledge,because people can be very
caught up in their own world andself-centred and not understand
that there's a world out thereand that their problems,
comparatively maybe, are not thesame.
In saying that, exactly whatyou said, when you're going
through the problem, when you'rein the middle of the problem,
(21:43):
it is a huge thing for you and Idon't think you can get out
your measuring stick and measurethese issues.
And I sort of learned this froma friend of mine who she has
been on this podcast.
Actually I've talked to herabout death and about grief and
several years ago she lost achild he was an adult, but her
child and it was suicide and itwas very traumatic in every way
(22:12):
imaginable.
And a few weeks before hepassed away I had an aunt pass
away.
And then my mother passed awaya few years later and I used to
feel really like, oh, Ishouldn't say that I'm feeling
bad about my mom or my aunt orwhatever, because that's not a
child, you know.
And she said no, no, she said,even if it's your dog, that
(22:35):
doesn't matter, it's big to you.
So your grief is still yourgrief, your pain is still your
pain.
So, no, you don't get outmeasuring sticks and we're all
allowed to have the pain that wehave and it's our experience.
And, like you said, if youdon't allow yourself to have the
experience and work through itand identify it, work through it
and do the things you need todo to manage your physical and
(22:59):
mental health around it, then itcan have catastrophic
consequences.
So it is actually reallyimportant that, yes, we have our
own pain and we don't have tokind of say, well, I didn't go
through the Holocaust, so itcan't be so bad for me.
However, just as an ongoingkind of life thing, it is useful
to know, it's useful to havecontext, but no, it doesn't mean
(23:19):
you can't or you're not allowedto experience pain.
Does that?
Does that sort of make sense of, like the clarifying the
difference of those two things?
Greg Wasserman (23:26):
100 and you bring to to mind something that
we were talking off, uh, beforewe we jumped on the recording is
I truly believe we have a fixit and a me too mentality in a
society, and that affected me.
Um, because take your, yourstory here.
You, you want to go like Ididn't lose, I didn't lose my
(23:47):
kid, but I've lost the parent,and so you're trying to relate
with this person, going like Iknow the pain of losing someone.
Right, and that's what mostpeople will do.
They'll try to relate, goinglike, oh, I've lost someone, so
I know the pain you're goingthrough.
It's like, and that's what Iconsider the the me too moment
of of.
I want to create connection andthe connection is through a
(24:11):
shared death, the shared grief,the shared pain, whatever the
shared uh topic I guess is.
But in reality, what most of usneed is just someone to sit
beside us and go.
That's hard, that's difficult.
I can imagine what do you wantme?
(24:34):
What would help you right now,as you share this story with me,
to support you.
And that becomes such a hugepower move, because now you are
truly sitting with that personand connecting with them because
of the story they told you andyou're recognizing that story as
opposed to oh, let me connectwith you by sharing my own story
(24:57):
, so we can both be in a momentof connection, of grief or
whatever it is.
And I think if we did more ofsitting with each other and
going thank you for sharing that, not only just in that story,
but I do this all the time now,and that was one of the biggest
things I learned after myprogram is like you're like, hey
(25:19):
, greg, I got, and you come tome and you tell me something.
I'm going to go.
What do you want me to do rightnow?
Do you want me to share ananswer?
Do you want a solution?
Do you want me to just sit hereand listen?
What would help you support,what would support you right now
?
And most of us don't do that.
We don't, and that becomes whatwe should be doing.
Fiona Kane (25:44):
Yes, we are part of a fix-it society and, look, I am
as guilty of this as anyonebecause it's just a society that
we're in and we grew upwatching TV shows and things
where that's what they do.
In TV shows, someone sort ofsays, oh, so-and-so has got a
problem, oh, let's go and fix it.
You's that fix-it mentality.
Whereas by the time of anepisode ends, of Friends or
(26:07):
whatever, I'm showing my age,but by the time the episode ends
, that we've fixed the problem.
So we've got however long theTV show goes for 22 minutes or
24 minutes or something for halfan hour by the beginning, we
have a problem.
By the end of it, we've solvedit.
So I think we do have a societythat is much like that and I
(26:27):
think we do want to feelconnection with people.
But also I think that one ofthe issues, one we just don't
know, this we just don't know,we don't understand this, we
don't realize until someonestops and kind of explains like,
oh, yeah, okay, that makessense.
Also, I think that if we arenot comfortable to even be in
our own emotions, if we are notcomfortable with our pain, we're
(26:51):
certainly not comfortable withsomebody else's so sitting and
being with someone in their painor bearing witness to someone's
pain or grief or despair orwhatever they're going through
is not the easiest thing to do,particularly if you've not
learned how to be comfortablewithin yourself with that.
So I think there's also that aswell.
(27:14):
So it's easier to kind of smileand kind of go oh yeah, I had a
hard time too than it is tokind of really sit in really
hard emotions.
Greg Wasserman (27:24):
Yeah, you, um.
So you, you jumped then to the,the, the fix it piece.
So I get the me too, and thefix it is the um, I tell you
something and then all of asudden your reaction is, oh,
have you done this, have youthought about that?
And so that becomes the fix itmentality.
(27:46):
And so, to your point, I feltthat as well, because I had as
parents parents who love theirchild, who want to take away
their pain, who want nothing butthe best for them.
If you tell them, hey,something happened, they want to
take that pain away.
Or maybe, to your point I'm nota therapist on this Maybe
(28:07):
they're like I can't sit with mychild right now in their pain.
So I got to try and take thataway.
And that was probably more ofwhat it was.
So let me try and fix it.
How do I help solve this, eventhough I never asked him to
solve anything?
We didn't ask anyone to solveanything.
We just are telling you whatwe're going through.
(28:28):
And so, yeah, that becomes the.
I think you're very correct andmost people can't sit there and
go hold on.
You're telling me a problemGreat, I know a solution.
Or you're telling me a problem.
I got to fix this, this, andthen they'll make me feel good,
and that'll make you feel goodand we'll be good.
But now it's just sit in it andand how do I support you?
(28:49):
What do you need?
Fiona Kane (28:51):
um, and that that led to, uh, to, to all those
negative words that I had inmyself yeah, and I think that,
as a nutritionist, I think it'sactually also what leads into a
lot of emotional eating, becauseI think that I don't know about
your experience, but certainlyin my experience and you know,
(29:12):
god bless my mother, she, shemet well, she, she's not here
now, but you know, she, her kindof solution to if you were
having a problem or if you weresad or any emotion, really was
oh, he's a chocolate or he's alolly or he's something.
And you know it's because shedidn't.
You know she had her ownchallenges, she had big
challenges in her life and shestruggled and had a hard time of
(29:35):
it, and so I think that shereally wasn't able to be that
present with the things going onfor her, let alone know how to
deal with my pain.
And, of course, children toosmall children in particular,
because we haven't beensocialized out of showing our
pain.
We, you know, we're not happy,we're jumping up and down and
(29:55):
we're yelling and we'rescreaming, and you know we're
very small.
Children, are very in touchwith their pain and they want it
dealt with.
You know, I want something now,you know, and it's so.
They're very strong emotionsthat children have and I think
that the strong emotions thatchildren have can be very
challenging for people who arenot comfortable with strong
(30:15):
emotions, and so an easy fix ishere's the ice cream, here's the
chocolate, here's something.
And the child learns veryquickly, I think, a couple of
things, and I'm not shamingpeople for doing this.
This is our society, it's justthings that we've learned.
But I think there's a fewthings that the child learns.
One they learn that it's notokay to have strong emotions in
(30:39):
public, or at least not withthat person or in this situation
whatever.
But they're starting to learnthat strong emotions are a
problem.
They also learn that a reallyeasy way to fix it is with sugar
.
Sugar makes everything better,kind of thing.
And so I think that's part ofwhat has introduced us or led us
to down this path of emotionaleating and using food to manage
(31:04):
our stress, because it's kind ofa relatively socially
acceptable way and simple, fastway to manage our emotions and
stress.
Greg Wasserman (31:14):
Not that it's ultimately useful in the long
run, but you know, I can see howthat sort of has come about 100
, you know, mean whether it'sovereating or under eating, or
overworking out, orperfectionism, like all those
are kind of traits of perfection.
Managing, uh, stress andanxiety.
Fiona Kane (31:37):
Or managing what was modeled to you uh, to regulate
without knowing a healthier wayof regulation yes, yeah, exactly
, and you know I I'm inaustralia and we've had a very
kind of I suppose I've got avery kind of british ancestry,
scots, welsh, all that kind ofstuff, and very much it was like
stiff upper lip, don't showemotions, can I?
(31:59):
So that was sort of that, thesociety that I suppose I have
grown up in and many of us have,and, um, and you know, and
every you know, because I'm agen xer, are you a gen xer or
are you a millennial?
Where are you?
Greg Wasserman (32:12):
I'm borderline, so I am an older millennial, as
they like like to say Okay.
Fiona Kane (32:18):
So every Gen Xerals in my generation, maybe your
generation as well our parents,or most of us, our parents, well
, like you if you'regrandparents went through
something a lot.
You know inverted commas harder.
You know, I walked to school inmy bare feet, or you know?
And the Holocaust?
Greg Wasserman (32:35):
Up and down in the snow a mile, yeah.
Fiona Kane (32:40):
And we didn't get to eat and blah, blah, blah and
all these.
I shouldn't be laughing when Isay that, but you know, our
ancestors, a lot of ourancestors, did go through some
really, really hard times and so, yeah, our generations were
trying to like shut up, get overit.
What's wrong with you?
And you know, I think you couldargue that these days it's got
a little bit too far the otherway.
Uh, it's like there's got to bea balance here somewhere.
So I think that's why it'salways like it's good to have
(33:01):
context, but it's also okay tohave emotions and learn how to
understand them, identify themand just do something useful
with them.
Uh, so it's sort of.
But yes, it's getting thebalance right and every
generation is trying to sort offigure that one out, aren't they
?
Greg Wasserman (33:15):
i's, it's I.
The biggest thing I can takeaway is our parents did the best
they could.
Or, as I like to say, no matterwhat our parents are going to
mess us up, we're all going toneed therapy.
We're all going to need therapy,whether our parents go for it
(33:35):
or not, at our age and ourparents' generation.
But we'll all need therapy is agood thing.
We all need support.
We don't know what we don'tknow and that was the biggest
thing for me I didn't know whatwas going on.
I didn't know how to ask forsupport.
I didn't know what was feelinginside, until that moment
(33:58):
happened, which I'm grateful.
I got the support.
I did that.
I can look at it now fardifferent, and then be able to
come on to a show like yours andshare that story and a fraction
of it.
That hopefully helps someoneelse understand you're not alone
.
I think that was the biggestthing.
(34:20):
Anytime I hear someone whopassed away from suicide like it
hits because you're like Idon't know what they're going
through because every story isdifferent, but you know to do
that, to think that, to takethat action.
Um was not, was was not withoutits own internal demons, um
(34:40):
that some are unfortunately notable to get through and some are
able to get the help and moveon.
But yeah that's a tough one.
Fiona Kane (34:49):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, and something I
wanted to ask you as well, justto get your perspective on this
I've always thought that really,men and women, we're quite
different and I know there'scrossovers and we can be what we
like and all the rest of it,but essentially there's some
things that I think are kind ofinbuilt, and I think from back
(35:12):
in the day, from way before ourtime sort of thing.
In that what I'm trying to sayspeak, fiona, speak, make sense.
What I'm trying to say is menwere the ones who had to go out
and fight, and so you are theguys who and I'm not saying that
this doesn't happen now insociety, I get it, but once upon
(35:32):
a time, if we were in the caveor if we were in the village or
whatever it is, if someone cameto attack our village, the men
had to go out and fight.
And the men had to go out and,you know, basically kill the
beasts and kill the enemy andprotect the family and whatever.
And you know, and in our sortof you know, my great
grandparents or maybe furtherback or whatever, but they were,
(35:54):
you know, the people who weredown coal mines or doing, and
men still now today often do thejobs that are really really
hard jobs.
You know, like I was justsaying, at the time we're
recording this, it'll be alittle bit after when we release
it.
But the time we're recordingthis as a cyclone about to hit
in Australia, in sort ofSouthern Queensland, and it's
going to be affecting SouthernQueensland and Northern New
(36:15):
South Wales, now the people whowill be going out to doing
rescues and fixing the powerlines and all those hard things,
most of them will be men.
Right, it's just the reality.
It won't be me.
I know there are some womenthat do those things and like
doing those things, but I'm notone of them.
But it's mostly men who dothose things.
So men can often be in aposition and particularly
(36:36):
historically, historically werein a position to do really
really hard stuff and differenthard stuff, because women do
really hard stuff as well.
It's just different hard stuff,right.
But what I'm trying to say isthe hard stuff that men had to
do didn't require you thinkingabout how you felt, right, it
wasn't like, well, how do I feel?
How do I feel today?
How are my emotions?
You had to go out and get ridof the bear that was attacking
(37:01):
the village or fight the enemy.
So I get that.
When, historically, if yourroles were that way that it
would make sense that menwouldn't learn or wouldn't be as
naturally in touch with theiremotions because being in touch
with the emotions probablywasn't particularly useful in
(37:22):
those situations Does that makesense?
Greg Wasserman (37:24):
A hundred percent.
Yeah, I mean long story short.
Yeah, it makes complete sense,based on the way society has
been and just where we are.
Based on the way society hasbeen and just where we are.
That's why, like, what is it?
Esther Perel is anothertherapist that I follow stuff,
(37:45):
and her book Meeting Captivityis a great one, but it's kind of
in the sense, like the lasthundred years even less
everything's changed.
It used to be your partnerwasn't everything and anything
to you, but now, in the currentstate, I want my partner to be
(38:07):
in my case.
I want him to be my wife,mother, my child, my best friend
, my sexual partner, myconfidant, like all these things
.
But 100 years ago it like holdon the village.
You had multi-generationalhomes, like there were other
components that allowed you toget all these different pieces
of your needs map as opposed tosufficing it with just one
(38:30):
person yes so we've changed thatentire.
So that also was probably whyshe's saying we've got such a
high divorce rate because we'reputting all this pressure on one
person, putting everything onone person.
Fiona Kane (38:41):
Yes, liz Gilbert wrote a great book about this,
called Commitment.
Greg Wasserman (38:45):
Okay.
Fiona Kane (38:45):
And it was exactly on that and she went and visited
different sort of tribes in, Ithink, northern Thailand and
places like that where theystill do live like that.
They're part of like acommunity or tribe or Brimby
village and they have veryspecific roles that they're born
into.
And this is the role thatyou're going to have and this is
(39:06):
a person that you're going tomarry.
And she said, I think they allkind of live, they all sleep on
the floor of the same homestogether, sort of thing.
And I think she said when theyget married they get two or
three days or something wherethey get to sleep in, like the
broom closet or whatever, sothey can have private couple.
That's the honeymoon and thenthe rest of the time everyone's
(39:27):
in together.
But she said, in the morningthe men go up and they go out
and they do all the man thingsand the women are together and
are raising the children, and soessentially the men are hunting
and the women are gathering orwhatever, and the women are
looking after children.
And so you know, you have thewise person in the village and
you have the health person inthe village and you have the
(39:48):
women and the aunties and themothers and the grandmothers,
and then you have the warriorsand whatever, and so everyone
has very specific roles.
And so, no, your husband iskind of just someone that you
see sometimes at the end of theday or you sleep next to him,
you happen to have a childtogether, but you don't do any
of it together really, you do itas a village.
(40:12):
And they laughed because onething she talks about that was
really interesting.
She says that in Westernsociety specifically women too,
and I know as much with men butif you ask any woman her love
story with her partner and itcould be a disastrous love story
about how much I hate him andhow much I'm glad I've left him,
or it could be a great.
You know we're so happytogether, blah, blah, blah.
But most women in Westernsociety, part of our identity is
(40:36):
that love story.
So you sit down, a woman sitsdown at the hairdresser's.
Within five minutes thathairdresser will know how she
met her husband, where she methim.
This is a story and whateverthe story turned out to be.
But part of our identity is ourlove story, because I suppose
(40:57):
we've been grown up with Disneyand all the different stories,
right, so we're very connectedto our story, our love story and
this whole kind of thing of uh,having you know soulmates and
all this kind of stuff which youknow lovely and everything but
in their societies kind of.
She talked to them about thestories and they didn't have
stories because they justmarried that guy that they were
supposed to marry, who was inthe village, and he's all right.
(41:19):
I sort of like him, he's okay.
And it's not about the big lovestory and about, like you said,
relying on that partner to beall of the things they're going
to be your confidant and yourlover and your wise person and
the person who you cry in theirshoulders and the person who
whatever, historically weweren't meant to be that, and
(41:43):
now that's what we've created inWestern society, which does put
a lot of pressure on a marriage.
If you've got to be all those,you can't be all those things.
Greg Wasserman (41:50):
That was part of my downfall is I was trying to
model, I was trying to be mymother and my father and and,
and and be everything andrealize, like, hold on, I'm
trying to juggle, like who mymother is, who my father is, and
and embrace all of that.
So is the caretaker as well asthe, the providers, the um, the
(42:15):
social as well as this, and, uh,it just broke me because, cause
you start realizing, hold on,I'm trying to do everything.
That's a big burden to try andtake on, as opposed to asking
for help and go realizing like,hold on, your friends can help
you, your partner can help you.
Instead, like no, I gotta, it'sall me and I can't ask anyone
(42:35):
else for help, because that'swhat I know.
So, yeah, yes, yeah.
Fiona Kane (42:43):
So really a big theme of this, from what you're
sort of telling me one is thatit's so important to ask for
help and to talk to other peopleand to get advice, because we
just don't know what we don'tknow, and that's not weakness.
Also, with what you've beensaying, a big part of this is
(43:09):
having connection.
Having connection with otherpeople, having other people
around you maybe that you cantalk to or you've had shared
experiences with, but also justthe reality of the stories we
tell ourselves, understandingthe stories we do tell ourselves
and how powerful they are, andhow marriage should be or how
society should be or how Ishould be as a husband or a
(43:30):
father or whatever the role is.
And you know, is that true?
Kind of tell myself a differentstory.
Can I assess really those roles, just the ability to be curious
and question all those things,rather than just assume it's all
true, everything that we'vebeen telling ourselves all of
our lives?
Greg Wasserman (43:51):
Yeah, assumption's the mother of all
blanks, right.
Assumption is the mother of allblanks, right.
And so curiosity is a good one.
But the biggest thing I'velearned through all this is
(44:15):
asking for help is a sign ofstrength and not weakness,
because you don't know.
What you don't know, and so Ilove your point is the should.
We should remove the wordshould from our language because
you shouldn't do anything.
But yeah, it's asking for helpbecause how else are you going
to grow, how else are you goingto know what you're thinking and
check it against other people?
But also think about it as asociety, like if I'm in a group
(44:40):
of people and we all arethinking this one way, then
great, what I'm thinking has tobe right.
But there's so many otherpeople out there, so can you
start asking for others, can yougo to others and start
understanding the, as you said,curiosity.
It's one of my favorite virtuesand getting that feedback,
because there are different waysto do things.
(45:02):
There are different ways tothink of things.
There's other.
There's 8 billion of peoplehere.
We're all not as much as we'reconnected, as much as we think
we're the same.
Everyone's got a different takeand experience and view.
So having that open mind andbeing able to go with the
curiosity of asking for helpbecomes such a big flex.
Fiona Kane (45:24):
Definitely, definitely, and it really does
it.
Just, you get I, when I wasvery young, I remember I I came
from the suburbs and sort ofWestern Sydney and it was quite
I thought I knew a lot about theworld, but I really didn't, of
course I was so young, but Istarted work in the city when I
was 16.
And what was really interestingfor me is all of the people I
(45:45):
worked with.
They were all much older thanme and they were all from all
over the world or had alldifferent interesting jobs and
all of a sudden my world openedup a hundredfold because I had
all, even before I startedtraveling.
It felt like I started travelingthen because I started
traveling through these peopleand I wanted to know well, what
was it like growing up inSingapore?
(46:05):
Or what was it like growing upin England?
And you know, tell me about,you know.
So you don't know what youdon't know and we sort of think
that all the rules we have forourselves are all the things
that we're thinking are allabsolutely set in stone, and
true, but, like you said,there's billions of people all
around the world living verydifferent ways, and so when you
(46:27):
open yourself up to the worldand just learn a bit more about
what other people are doing.
It sometimes just gives youreally good ideas or helps you
kind of go oh okay, so thoseexpectations I had on myself.
Greg Wasserman (46:37):
maybe they're not realistic or it's not
helpful did you, um, because ofthat experience as a child, did
you catch the travel bug and golike, all right, I'm seeing and
experiencing these cultures.
Fiona Kane (46:49):
Right now I've got to go to these places and
experience them and and theirfull uh flavor yes, I did, as
when I got older, I did, and Ihaven't done as much as I'd like
to, but I've done a fair bit.
And I even well, I, we gotmarried in scotland, uh, which
is a long way from sydney, uh,so, yeah, I'm very, very
interested in cultures and andplaces around the world.
(47:11):
So, yes, I've done a fair bit,but I'd like to do way more.
And, yeah, I really do love uhjust going experiencing other
cultures and seeing, uh, justlearning things that you just
don't know, or seeing thingsjust from a whole different
perspective that you neverthought about it was, um, the
catalyst.
Greg Wasserman (47:30):
A partner at the time said she noticed a change
when I went on a trip to govisit a friend in another
country and came back and it wasvery different and said there
was like the catalyst of like,seeing the world through the
opportunity of like I just wantto see the world, I just want to
, and that that was.
That was actually it.
The way I felt about suicidewas I have money in the bank,
(47:55):
I'm not going to just end mylife today, I'm going to go
travel the world and see theworld and just be free, and then
, when the money's gone, I'llworry about it then.
But yeah, it was the freeingview of just the curiosity of
seeing the world and what couldyou experience?
There's so much to do, there'sso much to see.
(48:16):
Financially, we don't have allthe means Time.
We don't have all the meansTime, we don't have all the time
.
But being able to explore that,even in your own town, even in
your own job, whatever opens,your eyes to new possibilities.
Fiona Kane (48:35):
Yes, look, even just going to someone else's house
in your own town, you'll gothere and you'll go oh, you use
that brand of that thing.
Oh, you do that that way.
Oh you, and all things that youjust thought everyone did the
same.
And you go there and they do it.
They don't, they do itdifferently.
And I might might sound silly,but it's just we.
We just so caught up in.
This is what we do and this ishow we do it, and we're very set
(49:02):
in our ways.
And you go somewhere and yourealize that not everyone does
it the same way that you do.
And so even just go into afriend's house and see how they
do things, uh, you kind of go.
Oh, that's interesting.
And sometimes every time Itravel whether it's go and stay
with friends for a couple ofdays, or whether it's traveling
around the world I come home andthere's something different.
Or I've learned somethingdifferent, or there's something
different about the way Iapproach things, or there's
something different about theway I see things, or maybe I've
just learned some.
We just had a little technicalhitch for a moment.
(49:30):
We're back.
Okay, you can hear me now.
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't know I dropped outfor a moment, but anyway I
learned, I just I grow and learnfrom just being open to looking
at other people's experiences,other people's lives, whether or
not it's here or whether or notit's in other countries.
Greg Wasserman (49:46):
And that's why I believe life is about time and
relationships, Like the onlything that humans need is
connection, and the only thingwe don't have more time and you
can't control it's time right.
So let me go have and havethese relationships, connections
.
Let's learn from people, havethat curiosity, uh, that has
always fueled me, but now I canbe the vulnerable person as
(50:09):
opposed to uh, that the stoicperson who can't share, and
that's that's a that createseven better connections.
That creates and that's what Ilove about podcasting, you know
is you have to be vulnerable,Otherwise anyone that's
listening here is like who isthis person?
Or this isn't the authenticversion of them, right?
(50:30):
So, I love that.
Fiona Kane (50:33):
So, Greg, thank you so much for sharing your story
and sharing your insights.
I've really appreciated havingyou on today.
Greg Wasserman (50:44):
Thank you so much for having me giving me the
uh, the, the errors uh, and andthe uh, the attention.
Fiona Kane (50:46):
So thank you, and is there anything that we missed
that you would like to addbefore we, before we finish up?
Greg Wasserman (50:53):
You're not alone .
You're not a burden.
It's okay to ask for help alone.
You're not a burden.
It's okay to ask for helpWhatever you're feeling,
whatever you're fearing.
You're not the only one.
We all think we're the only one, but people love you, they're
there for you and you just haveto be willing to share it,
(51:14):
whatever's going on, because noone's going to look at you
differently and if they do,probably not someone that you
want to deal with at the moment.
But they will love you, andthat is true.
Fiona Kane (51:31):
That's beautiful, thank you, and if people want to
get hold of you, where can theyfind you?
Greg Wasserman (51:46):
I live on LinkedIn.
You can't miss me.
Greg wasterman and my mypicture's there.
Title says life is about timeand relationships.
I would love nothing more tohave someone reach out and
create a connection.
I'm always open to talk,whether it's about podcasting
and business or uh, or life.
Uh, you have no clue where oneconversation is going to take
you, and I always love havingconversations great thanks and
(52:08):
look for anyone who's listeningor watching.
Fiona Kane (52:11):
I've put the links in the show notes as well and I
would like to remind everyoneplease like, subscribe, share,
rate, review all of those thingsso that my podcast can grow.
And thank you again, greg, I'vereally appreciated having you
on today.
Greg Wasserman (52:27):
Thank you so much.
Fiona Kane (52:29):
We like to have real conversations here about things
that matter, and that wasreally a really important
conversation.
I really enjoyed it.
Thank you everyone and I'll seeyou all again next week.
Thanks, bye.
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection.
I'm your host, Fiona Kane.
Today I have another guest andhis name is Greg Wasserman.
Hi, Greg.
Greg Wasserman (00:11):
Hey, Fiona, great to be here.
Fiona Kane (00:13):
My husband's a Greg, so I quite like Gregs.
I've had good experiences withthem.
We're good people, definitely,definitely.
So today we're going to betalking a little bit about
stress and anxiety, and really,you're going to be sharing your
story and telling us a littlebit about your experiences and
some of the things that you havelearned.
(00:34):
So initially, though, let's getstarted with you.
Just tell us, for anyone whodoesn't know who you are, would
you like to introduce yourself?
Greg Wasserman (00:41):
Well, I'm on the other side of the world here,
so, based in Los Angeles, bornand raised in Chicago, I came
out here for college and justnever left.
Worked in advertising andbusiness for the last 20 plus
years.
Love my family, which we'll betalking about as we discuss the
rest of this today, work inpodcasting and I truly believe
(01:06):
and we'll talk about.
Life is about time andrelationships.
I'm a big believer inconnections.
Fiona Kane (01:13):
Okay, yeah, yeah, so am I.
And already, guys, I've hadquite a few free tips from Greg
on podcasting, so he's beenreally helping me out.
It's really good to connectwith people that say say, hey,
um, maybe if you did this or ifyou did, that'd be really useful
, because I don't know, I justlike to talk about stuff but I
don't really know what I'm doingin regards to the podcasting
(01:35):
world.
So, uh, so, thank you alreadyfor, uh, all the help that
you've given me with a littlebrief uh bits of conversations
and things we've had hey, mypleasure and when and when
listening.
Greg Wasserman (01:43):
I'm here to help .
I want podcasters and I want us, as guests and listeners, to
just have the best experience.
Fiona Kane (01:51):
Yes, yeah, exactly.
So let's get right to it.
You have a bit of a story.
You've told me a little bit ofit.
I've had a bit of a glimpseinto it, but it sounds like an
interesting story and somethingthat maybe a lot of people would
relate to in their own ways.
So maybe start by telling us alittle bit about that.
Greg Wasserman (02:11):
Yeah.
So, as I said, I love my family, but we're here to talk about
them.
In some regards so grew up inChicago, normal, what I would, a
normal household, lovingparents.
I have an older brother, goodpublic schools, great athlete
student but I never understoodwhy I never could find happiness
(02:38):
.
And it wasn't until two and ahalf years ago that I had a
breaking point and really kindof came to terms and realized
what was going on.
And so for me, um, I came torealize that, no matter what I
did, no matter how much I worked, no matter the money I was
(03:01):
making or anything, it justwasn't enough.
But it wasn't a matter ofwasn't enough, it wasn't just I
didn't feel satisfied, I feltincredibly lonely, I felt
inauthentic.
There is nothing but fear in meand, as a result, no matter
what I kept doing, no matter theemotions I kept going through,
(03:25):
I just couldn't figure out whatwas going on.
And so what ended up happeningis my partner at the time
realized that we weren'taligning on where we were
supposed to be.
And she's like Greg, we're notwhere we were supposed to be.
And she, uh, she's like Greg,like we're, we're, we're not
(03:47):
where we thought we would be Umand I had to come clean and I
had to break down and literallytold her like I was having
suicidal thoughts.
I didn't want to be here.
Um and yeah, and so at the endof the day I was lucky that she
(04:20):
was able to at least help me andget me the support I needed,
which allowed me to check into aclinic, and I went through this
three-month intensive programthat literally helped me retrain
my brain.
Through this three-monthintensive program that literally
helped me retrain my brain.
What I came to realize duringthat entire program is why I was
feeling the way I was, and whatI was feeling was I was trying
(04:42):
to live up to the expectationsthat I put on my own mind, my
own self, that came through myfamily.
I'm a big friend of Brene Brownand so a story I love always to
tell that I probably quoteBrene wrong, but it really hit
me once I realized this.
Brene likes to tell a story ofwhen she was a kid and she would
(05:03):
get sick.
Her parents did everything forher, you know, take care of
great loving parents and soforth.
Same experience for me.
Work still got to get done, jobstill got to be done, Food
(05:24):
still got to be there for yourkids, and mom and dad still have
to be mom and dad, even thoughthey are human themselves.
Fiona Kane (05:32):
That's what Brene saw, doesn't she say their
family motto is lock and load,or something along those lines?
Greg Wasserman (05:40):
Right.
And so in her mind, what shesaw was oh, sickness is a
weakness, right, you can't besick, you, you have to keep
going, you have to keep pushingthrough it.
So that's where I had you know,uh.
And so I always look at it as Ihad a lens that my parents, my
family, didn't put on me, but itwas the lens that I saw through
(06:03):
things that I was never goodenough, that it was a burden,
that I had all these negativeviews on myself that made no
sense to anyone.
And so when I finally toldeveryone that I was suicidal,
they're like hold on, if you'relooking at me now like this is
who I am, you would never knowthat I'm not a happy-go-lucky,
(06:25):
that the glass is in half fullkind of person.
But on the inside I was hurtingso bad, and it was through this
program that allowed me torealize hold on, I'm not those
things.
Realize, hold on, I'm not thosethings.
(06:46):
Um, that the biggest lesson washow do you love yourself?
How do I care for myself?
Um, and so it was an incredible, incredible experience.
And then I can say, two yearslater, I'm in a lot better place
than I was, um so, yeah, it'swonderful to hear that you are.
Fiona Kane (07:05):
uh.
One thing I would like to askyou, though and you know I
always like to be careful abouthow I word these things, but you
answer what you want to and howyou want to when you finally
had that conversation with yourpartner now I can only imagine,
because I haven't been in thissituation it must be a huge deal
(07:26):
to even think about saying itto anyone else or admitting this
to anyone else.
So tell me a little bit aboutthat feeling where you don't
really want to tell other peoplewhat's stopping you, but also a
little bit about, well then,what was it like when you
finally did come out?
Come along, come out and sayhow you were feeling.
Greg Wasserman (07:50):
What changed for you?
That's the biggest questionthat I kept having to answer to
myself and not vocalize to otherpeople.
Right, the how do I tell peoplewhat I'm feeling?
How do I tell people what I'mfeeling?
How do I tell people what I'mthinking?
I can't tell people thosethoughts because what are people
going to believe?
(08:10):
What are, what are they goingto think?
So it's part of like go back toBrene, right, like shame, there
was so much shame and so, whileyou keep that all inside, it
allows the shame to foster um asopposed to vulnerability being
the strength.
And so that is all I knew.
Going back to the family onceagain love my parents.
(08:31):
My dad rest in peace.
But like generation where heknew three, I only knew three
forms of emotion happy, angry,sad and the standard guy.
In that regards, you go likehey, craig, how's it going?
(08:52):
I'm fine, that's, that'susually how things were Right.
So, like I had no verbalizationof how do I describe what I'm
feeling, to know that anger isactually a secondary emotion and
that the the underlying is I'mfrustrated, I'm annoyed,
whatever those other emotionsare I had no clue what they were
right no clue, not only whatthose were, because I didn't
know them, I didn't learn thembut also how to vocalize them.
(09:15):
So to have that conversationwith my partner and ultimately
just break down and say like I'mfearful, I'm alone I'm trying
to remember what else I saidbesides just breaking down and
having to tell her that it wasthe hardest thing because I
(09:44):
finally vocalized for the firsttime what I had been feeling and
had never been able to vocalize, not only internally because I
didn't know how to, but also toanother person, and that just
led to the most lonely, lonelyfeeling ever.
Had told her that, but, likethis, now truly felt alone, that
(10:07):
I've now shared this moment,but I feel so alone so initially
, when you told her it didn'tfeel good, it actually felt you
felt quite alone, I mean it'sthe uh vulnerable hang.
Uh.
What is it?
Fiona Kane (10:23):
vulnerability hangover where you tell someone
right talks about yes, yeah, um,that was exactly it uh sharing
your vulnerability.
Greg Wasserman (10:31):
You're like I can't believe I said that.
I can't believe I vocalizedthis.
I can't believe I told someonethat I'm thinking of suicide.
Like I can't believe Ivocalized what I've been feeling
.
And once those words are out,yeah, you're like I can't
believe I did that.
Now someone else knows thesecret.
What are they going to thinkabout me?
(10:53):
How am I thinking about myself?
And you just go through that.
That, uh, that spiral.
Fiona Kane (10:59):
And how long did that last for before it moved
into a place where you knowbecause you were sort of saying
before, in regards tovulnerability it's actually a
strength, not a weakness.
But initially it feels like aweakness, it feels like, oh my
God, I've just laid myself bare,can't put this back in the box,
whatever it is.
How long before you started tofeel more like it was a positive
(11:20):
thing and that it wasultimately a good thing for you?
Greg Wasserman (11:25):
positive thing and that it was ultimately a
good thing for you.
So this program was incredible.
Five days a week what is it?
Eight hours a day, four classes, like it's literally like going
to school.
Four different classes a day,five days a week, so 20 classes
there and every class you are,in a sense, in a group setting
checking in.
How are you feeling so clearly?
(11:46):
Day one, uh, and I'm watching Iwas only male in this group, so
watching all these other womengo around who'd been there
before me talking about whattheir check-in comes to me, it's
like, greg, how you, how youdoing, I'm like I'm fine,
knowing very well this is dayone, I'm overwhelmed, right, but
like then you just startflexing that muscle and and I
think that's been the biggestthing is flexing.
(12:09):
So if we think about what arethe ways to get over stress and
anxiety, just that flex of howdo we check in, how do I share,
whether it's journaling orsharing with other people so
there's two girls that are stillfrom that.
I check in, we do, we do weeklyor whenever we want to check in
with each other, and they'refrom my program.
(12:29):
So two years later, we're alllike, hey, we went through this
together.
This is we're here.
We know and we'll continue tosee our progression.
But I took frivolous notes.
I was like a kid in a school.
I'm like I'm just going to sithere and write down everything
that the teacher said and learnand blow my mind of like wow, I
never thought about that.
(12:50):
So I'd say it was probably.
If I did it 13 weeks I'd saymaybe halfway through that I
could start seeing a majorchange, just not only the way I
thought about myself, but theway I was thinking about all the
different things we werelearning in the program.
Fiona Kane (13:10):
Yeah, so for you it very much was about intensive
learning being part of a program.
It's not sort of sitting aroundat home wondering if it's going
to, if you're going to feeldifferently, because the whole
point is, I suppose, that thethe way you got there, to where
you were, to that point in yourlife, that the thinking that you
had to get to that point wasn'thelpful.
(13:33):
So it was actually to go andlearn a different way of
thinking or a different way ordifferent stories to tell
yourself and different ways of,like you said, identifying
emotions and then knowing whatto do with them.
That's not something that youcould necessarily figure out
sitting at home on your own.
That does require support fromsomewhere else 100%.
Greg Wasserman (13:53):
I mean, look, I was going to therapy before that
moment, but that was the firsttime I did therapy before, or I
guess when I was a kid I didtherapy, but this was the first
time as an adult.
Well, if you don't know what tosay, if you don't know your own
feelings and how to even accessthat, then therapy was great.
(14:14):
It was great in the sense thatI talked about things, but a
program where you are literallyday one you want to twip for
anyone that's listening.
I highly recommend doingidentity map.
That was the biggest breakerbecause I sat there in a group
(14:35):
with strangers and you go okay,what's your identity?
How would you define yourself,right?
So if we look at how Iintroduced myself, like I'm from
Chicago, I live in la, and youjust start going down those
pieces, but then you startrealizing like I'm a burden, I
feel like a loser.
You just start seeing like thewords that you're associating
(14:56):
with yourself, like wow, andthen to see those on the board
and strangers now seeing thatwho've never met you and they
don't know who you are, andyou're like, and the teacher's
like, so how does it feel seeingwhat you think about yourself,
(15:17):
like would a friend say thosethings to you and you're like
probably not, um.
And so going through thatentire emotion of being able to
reprogram your brain to thinkdifferently, to understand the
gift you give to people asopposed to the burden you think
you are to people, is a hugething.
Fiona Kane (15:33):
Yes, and also what you laid out there when you were
talking about the identity mapis that we cannot fix a problem
if we don't know what it is, ifwe don't assess it first.
A problem if we don't know whatit is, if we don't assess it
first.
And if you want to fix a carbut you're not doing any
assessment to see well, why isthat rattle happening or why is
it broken down, you can't justsort of start and think, oh,
(15:54):
I'll just go over and fix thispart over there.
You've got to actually find outwhere it's coming from and even
like a health problem, you needto have the scan or the blood
test or something.
You need a diagnosis.
So this is the same kind ofthing, just saying, well, unless
you know where you're at, youcan't fix it.
Or even just like, actually, youknow what a great example
(16:14):
probably a better example wouldbe a financial example when a
financial planner came to see usa few years ago and things were
quite a mess.
Now you have to actuallyrealistically, realistically,
look at it and go this is whatit looks like right now.
And as hard as that is whetherthat's in regards to your
emotions or any finances, whichcan sometimes be linked.
(16:36):
But when you look at itrealistically and really look at
it and go, oh my God, that iswhere it really is right now,
and really look at it and go, ohmy God, that is where it really
is right now, then you canactually at least, first of all,
understand why whatever's goingon is going on, but then also
you can make steps to make itbetter.
So you can't fix something thatyou're not aware of.
(16:57):
I suppose is what I'm trying tosay.
So that sounds like that's whatthat identity map did for you.
It allowed you to see oh okay,this is what's going on inside
of my head.
Greg Wasserman (17:09):
Having someone ask the questions that you don't
know how to ask yourself, right, so therapists could do that.
But like eight hours a day, fivedays a week of an intense,
different programs, uh,literally then starts to get you
to understand, uh, journalingin a way that you've never
thought about journaling.
When people are like, yeah,just start writing down your
(17:31):
ideas, I'm like, okay, I couldwrite them down, but if you're
given a journal prompt, you gotto go do that.
And so for those listening andwatching, like for me, I was
reading self-help books, I wasgoing down, like I said, brene
Brown, I loved it, therapy.
But it wasn't until I sat in aclassroom setting for me,
(17:54):
intense, know what the questionsthey're asking feel like with a
teacher and you're back intothat classroom setting.
It was like that was the onlyway my brain was going to end up
and you're back into thatclassroom setting.
It was like that was the onlyway my brain was going to end up
reprogramming, as opposed to metrying to do it myself ad hoc,
if we want to look at it thatway.
Fiona Kane (18:11):
Well, when we do it ourselves, it's very.
You know, we're just learninginformation, so we are gathering
new information and new ideas,but it's quite different.
It's like very academic, isn'tit?
And when you actually dolearning, that's experiential
and personal and you ask theright questions, or you ask
(18:35):
yourself the right questions.
It's a very differentexperience.
So you can academically learn alot of things, but just
academically know them and notreally ever integrate them or
understand them at a personallevel.
So, like you said, knowing theinformation is part of it, but
it's actually what you do withthat information yeah, that was.
Greg Wasserman (19:00):
I would say that's definitely the key, um
and then.
So, after those 13 weeks, um,it's been important to continue
to do check-ins.
Gratitude Um, I didn't knowwhat gratitude was you asked me
to, to write gratitude every day.
It was incredibly impossible.
(19:20):
So now you know gratitude jar,where you're realizing I have a
place.
You know, I live in Los Angeles.
A lot of people I know losttheir homes.
We were talking about a stormcoming.
So who knows who's gettingimpacted by that.
So grateful that I've got thosethings.
It's just like simple thingsthat now start changing your
(19:41):
mind and taking things that youhad for granted.
Is you know what?
No, this isn't.
And if we go back to my originstory, so the reason I was what
I was is my mom's parents wereHolocaust survivors.
So my mom always said anythingthat happens, how do I compare
(20:03):
this to the Holocaust?
And what my parents wentthrough my grandparents went
through right.
So that whole mentality is ifyou're always comparing what I'm
going through can't be as badas anything else because that is
the most horrific thing, thenyour mindset is like, well, then
I just got to push through it.
Or you know what?
This isn't bad, dust it off.
(20:23):
But you really start realizinghold on, my pain is okay to have
, it's okay to sit in this, it'sokay to recognize you know what
?
Maybe my pain, in comparison,is a death to all of us.
So if I'm comparing my pain toyour pain, going like, well,
yeah, you're probably worse, butlike that doesn't negate the
pain I'm in, and so justchanging that entire mindset of
(20:46):
going like it's okay to be notokay.
It's okay to take a moment torest.
It's okay to not always be go,go, go, and I'm very much of a
go go, go guy.
Fiona Kane (21:00):
Yeah, yeah, and look that context thing, I get the
context thing.
I think it is good for us toall know that, generally
speaking, there are other peoplein the world who are probably
doing it worse than us most ofthe time.
So it is useful as a contextthing to not stay in victimhood
forever and ever and ever, tounderstand that, yes, the
(21:21):
Holocaust happened and yes,obviously that is a good thing.
To just have that knowledge,because people can be very
caught up in their own world andself-centred and not understand
that there's a world out thereand that their problems,
comparatively maybe, are not thesame.
In saying that, exactly whatyou said, when you're going
through the problem, when you'rein the middle of the problem,
(21:43):
it is a huge thing for you and Idon't think you can get out
your measuring stick and measurethese issues.
And I sort of learned this froma friend of mine who she has
been on this podcast.
Actually I've talked to herabout death and about grief and
several years ago she lost achild he was an adult, but her
child and it was suicide and itwas very traumatic in every way
(22:12):
imaginable.
And a few weeks before hepassed away I had an aunt pass
away.
And then my mother passed awaya few years later and I used to
feel really like, oh, Ishouldn't say that I'm feeling
bad about my mom or my aunt orwhatever, because that's not a
child, you know.
And she said no, no, she said,even if it's your dog, that
(22:35):
doesn't matter, it's big to you.
So your grief is still yourgrief, your pain is still your
pain.
So, no, you don't get outmeasuring sticks and we're all
allowed to have the pain that wehave and it's our experience.
And, like you said, if youdon't allow yourself to have the
experience and work through itand identify it, work through it
and do the things you need todo to manage your physical and
(22:59):
mental health around it, then itcan have catastrophic
consequences.
So it is actually reallyimportant that, yes, we have our
own pain and we don't have tokind of say, well, I didn't go
through the Holocaust, so itcan't be so bad for me.
However, just as an ongoingkind of life thing, it is useful
to know, it's useful to havecontext, but no, it doesn't mean
(23:19):
you can't or you're not allowedto experience pain.
Does that?
Does that sort of make sense of, like the clarifying the
difference of those two things?
Greg Wasserman (23:26):
100 and you bring to to mind something that
we were talking off, uh, beforewe we jumped on the recording is
I truly believe we have a fixit and a me too mentality in a
society, and that affected me.
Um, because take your, yourstory here.
You, you want to go like Ididn't lose, I didn't lose my
(23:47):
kid, but I've lost the parent,and so you're trying to relate
with this person, going like Iknow the pain of losing someone.
Right, and that's what mostpeople will do.
They'll try to relate, goinglike, oh, I've lost someone, so
I know the pain you're goingthrough.
It's like, and that's what Iconsider the the me too moment
of of.
I want to create connection andthe connection is through a
(24:11):
shared death, the shared grief,the shared pain, whatever the
shared uh topic I guess is.
But in reality, what most of usneed is just someone to sit
beside us and go.
That's hard, that's difficult.
I can imagine what do you wantme?
(24:34):
What would help you right now,as you share this story with me,
to support you.
And that becomes such a hugepower move, because now you are
truly sitting with that personand connecting with them because
of the story they told you andyou're recognizing that story as
opposed to oh, let me connectwith you by sharing my own story
(24:57):
, so we can both be in a momentof connection, of grief or
whatever it is.
And I think if we did more ofsitting with each other and
going thank you for sharing that, not only just in that story,
but I do this all the time now,and that was one of the biggest
things I learned after myprogram is like you're like, hey
(25:19):
, greg, I got, and you come tome and you tell me something.
I'm going to go.
What do you want me to do rightnow?
Do you want me to share ananswer?
Do you want a solution?
Do you want me to just sit hereand listen?
What would help you support,what would support you right now
?
And most of us don't do that.
We don't, and that becomes whatwe should be doing.
Fiona Kane (25:44):
Yes, we are part of a fix-it society and, look, I am
as guilty of this as anyonebecause it's just a society that
we're in and we grew upwatching TV shows and things
where that's what they do.
In TV shows, someone sort ofsays, oh, so-and-so has got a
problem, oh, let's go and fix it.
You's that fix-it mentality.
Whereas by the time of anepisode ends, of Friends or
(26:07):
whatever, I'm showing my age,but by the time the episode ends
, that we've fixed the problem.
So we've got however long theTV show goes for 22 minutes or
24 minutes or something for halfan hour by the beginning, we
have a problem.
By the end of it, we've solvedit.
So I think we do have a societythat is much like that and I
(26:27):
think we do want to feelconnection with people.
But also I think that one ofthe issues, one we just don't
know, this we just don't know,we don't understand this, we
don't realize until someonestops and kind of explains like,
oh, yeah, okay, that makessense.
Also, I think that if we arenot comfortable to even be in
our own emotions, if we are notcomfortable with our pain, we're
(26:51):
certainly not comfortable withsomebody else's so sitting and
being with someone in their painor bearing witness to someone's
pain or grief or despair orwhatever they're going through
is not the easiest thing to do,particularly if you've not
learned how to be comfortablewithin yourself with that.
So I think there's also that aswell.
(27:14):
So it's easier to kind of smileand kind of go oh yeah, I had a
hard time too than it is tokind of really sit in really
hard emotions.
Greg Wasserman (27:24):
Yeah, you, um.
So you, you jumped then to the,the, the fix it piece.
So I get the me too, and thefix it is the um, I tell you
something and then all of asudden your reaction is, oh,
have you done this, have youthought about that?
And so that becomes the fix itmentality.
(27:46):
And so, to your point, I feltthat as well, because I had as
parents parents who love theirchild, who want to take away
their pain, who want nothing butthe best for them.
If you tell them, hey,something happened, they want to
take that pain away.
Or maybe, to your point I'm nota therapist on this Maybe
(28:07):
they're like I can't sit with mychild right now in their pain.
So I got to try and take thataway.
And that was probably more ofwhat it was.
So let me try and fix it.
How do I help solve this, eventhough I never asked him to
solve anything?
We didn't ask anyone to solveanything.
We just are telling you whatwe're going through.
(28:28):
And so, yeah, that becomes the.
I think you're very correct andmost people can't sit there and
go hold on.
You're telling me a problemGreat, I know a solution.
Or you're telling me a problem.
I got to fix this, this, andthen they'll make me feel good,
and that'll make you feel goodand we'll be good.
But now it's just sit in it andand how do I support you?
(28:49):
What do you need?
Fiona Kane (28:51):
um, and that that led to, uh, to, to all those
negative words that I had inmyself yeah, and I think that,
as a nutritionist, I think it'sactually also what leads into a
lot of emotional eating, becauseI think that I don't know about
your experience, but certainlyin my experience and you know,
(29:12):
god bless my mother, she, shemet well, she, she's not here
now, but you know, she, her kindof solution to if you were
having a problem or if you weresad or any emotion, really was
oh, he's a chocolate or he's alolly or he's something.
And you know it's because shedidn't.
You know she had her ownchallenges, she had big
challenges in her life and shestruggled and had a hard time of
(29:35):
it, and so I think that shereally wasn't able to be that
present with the things going onfor her, let alone know how to
deal with my pain.
And, of course, children toosmall children in particular,
because we haven't beensocialized out of showing our
pain.
We, you know, we're not happy,we're jumping up and down and
(29:55):
we're yelling and we'rescreaming, and you know we're
very small.
Children, are very in touchwith their pain and they want it
dealt with.
You know, I want something now,you know, and it's so.
They're very strong emotionsthat children have and I think
that the strong emotions thatchildren have can be very
challenging for people who arenot comfortable with strong
(30:15):
emotions, and so an easy fix ishere's the ice cream, here's the
chocolate, here's something.
And the child learns veryquickly, I think, a couple of
things, and I'm not shamingpeople for doing this.
This is our society, it's justthings that we've learned.
But I think there's a fewthings that the child learns.
One they learn that it's notokay to have strong emotions in
(30:39):
public, or at least not withthat person or in this situation
whatever.
But they're starting to learnthat strong emotions are a
problem.
They also learn that a reallyeasy way to fix it is with sugar
.
Sugar makes everything better,kind of thing.
And so I think that's part ofwhat has introduced us or led us
to down this path of emotionaleating and using food to manage
(31:04):
our stress, because it's kind ofa relatively socially
acceptable way and simple, fastway to manage our emotions and
stress.
Greg Wasserman (31:14):
Not that it's ultimately useful in the long
run, but you know, I can see howthat sort of has come about 100
, you know, mean whether it'sovereating or under eating, or
overworking out, orperfectionism, like all those
are kind of traits of perfection.
Managing, uh, stress andanxiety.
Fiona Kane (31:37):
Or managing what was modeled to you uh, to regulate
without knowing a healthier wayof regulation yes, yeah, exactly
, and you know I I'm inaustralia and we've had a very
kind of I suppose I've got avery kind of british ancestry,
scots, welsh, all that kind ofstuff, and very much it was like
stiff upper lip, don't showemotions, can I?
(31:59):
So that was sort of that, thesociety that I suppose I have
grown up in and many of us have,and, um, and you know, and
every you know, because I'm agen xer, are you a gen xer or
are you a millennial?
Where are you?
Greg Wasserman (32:12):
I'm borderline, so I am an older millennial, as
they like like to say Okay.
Fiona Kane (32:18):
So every Gen Xerals in my generation, maybe your
generation as well our parents,or most of us, our parents, well
, like you if you'regrandparents went through
something a lot.
You know inverted commas harder.
You know, I walked to school inmy bare feet, or you know?
And the Holocaust?
Greg Wasserman (32:35):
Up and down in the snow a mile, yeah.
Fiona Kane (32:40):
And we didn't get to eat and blah, blah, blah and
all these.
I shouldn't be laughing when Isay that, but you know, our
ancestors, a lot of ourancestors, did go through some
really, really hard times and so, yeah, our generations were
trying to like shut up, get overit.
What's wrong with you?
And you know, I think you couldargue that these days it's got
a little bit too far the otherway.
Uh, it's like there's got to bea balance here somewhere.
So I think that's why it'salways like it's good to have
(33:01):
context, but it's also okay tohave emotions and learn how to
understand them, identify themand just do something useful
with them.
Uh, so it's sort of.
But yes, it's getting thebalance right and every
generation is trying to sort offigure that one out, aren't they
?
Greg Wasserman (33:15):
i's, it's I.
The biggest thing I can takeaway is our parents did the best
they could.
Or, as I like to say, no matterwhat our parents are going to
mess us up, we're all going toneed therapy.
We're all going to need therapy,whether our parents go for it
(33:35):
or not, at our age and ourparents' generation.
But we'll all need therapy is agood thing.
We all need support.
We don't know what we don'tknow and that was the biggest
thing for me I didn't know whatwas going on.
I didn't know how to ask forsupport.
I didn't know what was feelinginside, until that moment
(33:58):
happened, which I'm grateful.
I got the support.
I did that.
I can look at it now fardifferent, and then be able to
come on to a show like yours andshare that story and a fraction
of it.
That hopefully helps someoneelse understand you're not alone
.
I think that was the biggestthing.
(34:20):
Anytime I hear someone whopassed away from suicide like it
hits because you're like Idon't know what they're going
through because every story isdifferent, but you know to do
that, to think that, to takethat action.
Um was not, was was not withoutits own internal demons, um
(34:40):
that some are unfortunately notable to get through and some are
able to get the help and moveon.
But yeah that's a tough one.
Fiona Kane (34:49):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, and something I
wanted to ask you as well, justto get your perspective on this
I've always thought that really,men and women, we're quite
different and I know there'scrossovers and we can be what we
like and all the rest of it,but essentially there's some
things that I think are kind ofinbuilt, and I think from back
(35:12):
in the day, from way before ourtime sort of thing.
In that what I'm trying to sayspeak, fiona, speak, make sense.
What I'm trying to say is menwere the ones who had to go out
and fight, and so you are theguys who and I'm not saying that
this doesn't happen now insociety, I get it, but once upon
(35:32):
a time, if we were in the caveor if we were in the village or
whatever it is, if someone cameto attack our village, the men
had to go out and fight.
And the men had to go out and,you know, basically kill the
beasts and kill the enemy andprotect the family and whatever.
And you know, and in our sortof you know, my great
grandparents or maybe furtherback or whatever, but they were,
(35:54):
you know, the people who weredown coal mines or doing, and
men still now today often do thejobs that are really really
hard jobs.
You know, like I was justsaying, at the time we're
recording this, it'll be alittle bit after when we release
it.
But the time we're recordingthis as a cyclone about to hit
in Australia, in sort ofSouthern Queensland, and it's
going to be affecting SouthernQueensland and Northern New
(36:15):
South Wales, now the people whowill be going out to doing
rescues and fixing the powerlines and all those hard things,
most of them will be men.
Right, it's just the reality.
It won't be me.
I know there are some womenthat do those things and like
doing those things, but I'm notone of them.
But it's mostly men who dothose things.
So men can often be in aposition and particularly
(36:36):
historically, historically werein a position to do really
really hard stuff and differenthard stuff, because women do
really hard stuff as well.
It's just different hard stuff,right.
But what I'm trying to say isthe hard stuff that men had to
do didn't require you thinkingabout how you felt, right, it
wasn't like, well, how do I feel?
How do I feel today?
How are my emotions?
You had to go out and get ridof the bear that was attacking
(37:01):
the village or fight the enemy.
So I get that.
When, historically, if yourroles were that way that it
would make sense that menwouldn't learn or wouldn't be as
naturally in touch with theiremotions because being in touch
with the emotions probablywasn't particularly useful in
(37:22):
those situations Does that makesense?
Greg Wasserman (37:24):
A hundred percent.
Yeah, I mean long story short.
Yeah, it makes complete sense,based on the way society has
been and just where we are.
Based on the way society hasbeen and just where we are.
That's why, like, what is it?
Esther Perel is anothertherapist that I follow stuff,
(37:45):
and her book Meeting Captivityis a great one, but it's kind of
in the sense, like the lasthundred years even less
everything's changed.
It used to be your partnerwasn't everything and anything
to you, but now, in the currentstate, I want my partner to be
(38:07):
in my case.
I want him to be my wife,mother, my child, my best friend
, my sexual partner, myconfidant, like all these things
.
But 100 years ago it like holdon the village.
You had multi-generationalhomes, like there were other
components that allowed you toget all these different pieces
of your needs map as opposed tosufficing it with just one
(38:30):
person yes so we've changed thatentire.
So that also was probably whyshe's saying we've got such a
high divorce rate because we'reputting all this pressure on one
person, putting everything onone person.
Fiona Kane (38:41):
Yes, liz Gilbert wrote a great book about this,
called Commitment.
Greg Wasserman (38:45):
Okay.
Fiona Kane (38:45):
And it was exactly on that and she went and visited
different sort of tribes in, Ithink, northern Thailand and
places like that where theystill do live like that.
They're part of like acommunity or tribe or Brimby
village and they have veryspecific roles that they're born
into.
And this is the role thatyou're going to have and this is
(39:06):
a person that you're going tomarry.
And she said, I think they allkind of live, they all sleep on
the floor of the same homestogether, sort of thing.
And I think she said when theyget married they get two or
three days or something wherethey get to sleep in, like the
broom closet or whatever, sothey can have private couple.
That's the honeymoon and thenthe rest of the time everyone's
(39:27):
in together.
But she said, in the morningthe men go up and they go out
and they do all the man thingsand the women are together and
are raising the children, and soessentially the men are hunting
and the women are gathering orwhatever, and the women are
looking after children.
And so you know, you have thewise person in the village and
you have the health person inthe village and you have the
(39:48):
women and the aunties and themothers and the grandmothers,
and then you have the warriorsand whatever, and so everyone
has very specific roles.
And so, no, your husband iskind of just someone that you
see sometimes at the end of theday or you sleep next to him,
you happen to have a childtogether, but you don't do any
of it together really, you do itas a village.
(40:12):
And they laughed because onething she talks about that was
really interesting.
She says that in Westernsociety specifically women too,
and I know as much with men butif you ask any woman her love
story with her partner and itcould be a disastrous love story
about how much I hate him andhow much I'm glad I've left him,
or it could be a great.
You know we're so happytogether, blah, blah, blah.
But most women in Westernsociety, part of our identity is
(40:36):
that love story.
So you sit down, a woman sitsdown at the hairdresser's.
Within five minutes thathairdresser will know how she
met her husband, where she methim.
This is a story and whateverthe story turned out to be.
But part of our identity is ourlove story, because I suppose
(40:57):
we've been grown up with Disneyand all the different stories,
right, so we're very connectedto our story, our love story and
this whole kind of thing of uh,having you know soulmates and
all this kind of stuff which youknow lovely and everything but
in their societies kind of.
She talked to them about thestories and they didn't have
stories because they justmarried that guy that they were
supposed to marry, who was inthe village, and he's all right.
(41:19):
I sort of like him, he's okay.
And it's not about the big lovestory and about, like you said,
relying on that partner to beall of the things they're going
to be your confidant and yourlover and your wise person and
the person who you cry in theirshoulders and the person who
whatever, historically weweren't meant to be that, and
(41:43):
now that's what we've created inWestern society, which does put
a lot of pressure on a marriage.
If you've got to be all those,you can't be all those things.
Greg Wasserman (41:50):
That was part of my downfall is I was trying to
model, I was trying to be mymother and my father and and,
and and be everything andrealize, like, hold on, I'm
trying to juggle, like who mymother is, who my father is, and
and embrace all of that.
So is the caretaker as well asthe, the providers, the um, the
(42:15):
social as well as this, and, uh,it just broke me because, cause
you start realizing, hold on,I'm trying to do everything.
That's a big burden to try andtake on, as opposed to asking
for help and go realizing like,hold on, your friends can help
you, your partner can help you.
Instead, like no, I gotta, it'sall me and I can't ask anyone
(42:35):
else for help, because that'swhat I know.
So, yeah, yes, yeah.
Fiona Kane (42:43):
So really a big theme of this, from what you're
sort of telling me one is thatit's so important to ask for
help and to talk to other peopleand to get advice, because we
just don't know what we don'tknow, and that's not weakness.
Also, with what you've beensaying, a big part of this is
(43:09):
having connection.
Having connection with otherpeople, having other people
around you maybe that you cantalk to or you've had shared
experiences with, but also justthe reality of the stories we
tell ourselves, understandingthe stories we do tell ourselves
and how powerful they are, andhow marriage should be or how
society should be or how Ishould be as a husband or a
(43:30):
father or whatever the role is.
And you know, is that true?
Kind of tell myself a differentstory.
Can I assess really those roles, just the ability to be curious
and question all those things,rather than just assume it's all
true, everything that we'vebeen telling ourselves all of
our lives?
Greg Wasserman (43:51):
Yeah, assumption's the mother of all
blanks, right.
Assumption is the mother of allblanks, right.
And so curiosity is a good one.
But the biggest thing I'velearned through all this is
(44:15):
asking for help is a sign ofstrength and not weakness,
because you don't know.
What you don't know, and so Ilove your point is the should.
We should remove the wordshould from our language because
you shouldn't do anything.
But yeah, it's asking for helpbecause how else are you going
to grow, how else are you goingto know what you're thinking and
check it against other people?
But also think about it as asociety, like if I'm in a group
(44:40):
of people and we all arethinking this one way, then
great, what I'm thinking has tobe right.
But there's so many otherpeople out there, so can you
start asking for others, can yougo to others and start
understanding the, as you said,curiosity.
It's one of my favorite virtuesand getting that feedback,
because there are different waysto do things.
(45:02):
There are different ways tothink of things.
There's other.
There's 8 billion of peoplehere.
We're all not as much as we'reconnected, as much as we think
we're the same.
Everyone's got a different takeand experience and view.
So having that open mind andbeing able to go with the
curiosity of asking for helpbecomes such a big flex.
Fiona Kane (45:24):
Definitely, definitely, and it really does
it.
Just, you get I, when I wasvery young, I remember I I came
from the suburbs and sort ofWestern Sydney and it was quite
I thought I knew a lot about theworld, but I really didn't, of
course I was so young, but Istarted work in the city when I
was 16.
And what was really interestingfor me is all of the people I
(45:45):
worked with.
They were all much older thanme and they were all from all
over the world or had alldifferent interesting jobs and
all of a sudden my world openedup a hundredfold because I had
all, even before I startedtraveling.
It felt like I started travelingthen because I started
traveling through these peopleand I wanted to know well, what
was it like growing up inSingapore?
(46:05):
Or what was it like growing upin England?
And you know, tell me about,you know.
So you don't know what youdon't know and we sort of think
that all the rules we have forourselves are all the things
that we're thinking are allabsolutely set in stone, and
true, but, like you said,there's billions of people all
around the world living verydifferent ways, and so when you
(46:27):
open yourself up to the worldand just learn a bit more about
what other people are doing.
It sometimes just gives youreally good ideas or helps you
kind of go oh okay, so thoseexpectations I had on myself.
Greg Wasserman (46:37):
maybe they're not realistic or it's not
helpful did you, um, because ofthat experience as a child, did
you catch the travel bug and golike, all right, I'm seeing and
experiencing these cultures.
Fiona Kane (46:49):
Right now I've got to go to these places and
experience them and and theirfull uh flavor yes, I did, as
when I got older, I did, and Ihaven't done as much as I'd like
to, but I've done a fair bit.
And I even well, I, we gotmarried in scotland, uh, which
is a long way from sydney, uh,so, yeah, I'm very, very
interested in cultures and andplaces around the world.
(47:11):
So, yes, I've done a fair bit,but I'd like to do way more.
And, yeah, I really do love uhjust going experiencing other
cultures and seeing, uh, justlearning things that you just
don't know, or seeing thingsjust from a whole different
perspective that you neverthought about it was, um, the
catalyst.
Greg Wasserman (47:30):
A partner at the time said she noticed a change
when I went on a trip to govisit a friend in another
country and came back and it wasvery different and said there
was like the catalyst of like,seeing the world through the
opportunity of like I just wantto see the world, I just want to
, and that that was.
That was actually it.
The way I felt about suicidewas I have money in the bank,
(47:55):
I'm not going to just end mylife today, I'm going to go
travel the world and see theworld and just be free, and then
, when the money's gone, I'llworry about it then.
But yeah, it was the freeingview of just the curiosity of
seeing the world and what couldyou experience?
There's so much to do, there'sso much to see.
(48:16):
Financially, we don't have allthe means Time.
We don't have all the meansTime, we don't have all the time
.
But being able to explore that,even in your own town, even in
your own job, whatever opens,your eyes to new possibilities.
Fiona Kane (48:35):
Yes, look, even just going to someone else's house
in your own town, you'll gothere and you'll go oh, you use
that brand of that thing.
Oh, you do that that way.
Oh you, and all things that youjust thought everyone did the
same.
And you go there and they do it.
They don't, they do itdifferently.
And I might might sound silly,but it's just we.
We just so caught up in.
This is what we do and this ishow we do it, and we're very set
(49:02):
in our ways.
And you go somewhere and yourealize that not everyone does
it the same way that you do.
And so even just go into afriend's house and see how they
do things, uh, you kind of go.
Oh, that's interesting.
And sometimes every time Itravel whether it's go and stay
with friends for a couple ofdays, or whether it's traveling
around the world I come home andthere's something different.
Or I've learned somethingdifferent, or there's something
different about the way Iapproach things, or there's
something different about theway I see things, or maybe I've
just learned some.
We just had a little technicalhitch for a moment.
(49:30):
We're back.
Okay, you can hear me now.
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't know I dropped outfor a moment, but anyway I
learned, I just I grow and learnfrom just being open to looking
at other people's experiences,other people's lives, whether or
not it's here or whether or notit's in other countries.
Greg Wasserman (49:46):
And that's why I believe life is about time and
relationships, Like the onlything that humans need is
connection, and the only thingwe don't have more time and you
can't control it's time right.
So let me go have and havethese relationships, connections
.
Let's learn from people, havethat curiosity, uh, that has
always fueled me, but now I canbe the vulnerable person as
(50:09):
opposed to uh, that the stoicperson who can't share, and
that's that's a that createseven better connections.
That creates and that's what Ilove about podcasting, you know
is you have to be vulnerable,Otherwise anyone that's
listening here is like who isthis person?
Or this isn't the authenticversion of them, right?
(50:30):
So, I love that.
Fiona Kane (50:33):
So, Greg, thank you so much for sharing your story
and sharing your insights.
I've really appreciated havingyou on today.
Greg Wasserman (50:44):
Thank you so much for having me giving me the
uh, the, the errors uh, and andthe uh, the attention.
Fiona Kane (50:46):
So thank you, and is there anything that we missed
that you would like to addbefore we, before we finish up?
Greg Wasserman (50:53):
You're not alone .
You're not a burden.
It's okay to ask for help alone.
You're not a burden.
It's okay to ask for helpWhatever you're feeling,
whatever you're fearing.
You're not the only one.
We all think we're the only one, but people love you, they're
there for you and you just haveto be willing to share it,
(51:14):
whatever's going on, because noone's going to look at you
differently and if they do,probably not someone that you
want to deal with at the moment.
But they will love you, andthat is true.
Fiona Kane (51:31):
That's beautiful, thank you, and if people want to
get hold of you, where can theyfind you?
Greg Wasserman (51:46):
I live on LinkedIn.
You can't miss me.
Greg wasterman and my mypicture's there.
Title says life is about timeand relationships.
I would love nothing more tohave someone reach out and
create a connection.
I'm always open to talk,whether it's about podcasting
and business or uh, or life.
Uh, you have no clue where oneconversation is going to take
you, and I always love havingconversations great thanks and
(52:08):
look for anyone who's listeningor watching.
Fiona Kane (52:11):
I've put the links in the show notes as well and I
would like to remind everyoneplease like, subscribe, share,
rate, review all of those thingsso that my podcast can grow.
And thank you again, greg, I'vereally appreciated having you
on today.
Greg Wasserman (52:27):
Thank you so much.
Fiona Kane (52:29):
We like to have real conversations here about things
that matter, and that wasreally a really important
conversation.
I really enjoyed it.
Thank you everyone and I'll seeyou all again next week.
Thanks, bye.
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